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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm

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Speaker 1: doctor James Spencer and I'm joined again today by doctor

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Speaker 1: Gary Edward Snitcher, and we're going to be discussing his

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Speaker 1: book Old Testament Use of Old Testament in Parallel Layout

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Speaker 1: that is coming out later this year, but specifically today,

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Speaker 1: we're going to be looking at the use of the

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Speaker 1: Old Testament in the New Testament and how that really works,

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Speaker 1: how we might think about it, and really dealing with

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Speaker 1: not just the quotations, but some of the illusions there

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Speaker 1: as well. Very similar to the conversation we had about

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Speaker 1: the Old Testament use of the Old Testament last time,

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Speaker 1: just applied into the New Testament and there will be

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Speaker 1: some differences. So with that said, Gary, welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the program. Thank you very much for being here.

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Speaker 2: Thanks James, I really appreciate being here and especially having

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Speaker 2: a chance. I tell my students all the time there

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Speaker 2: is nothing wrong with the New Testament.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's great.

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Speaker 2: So I'm happy to be able to look at that,

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Speaker 2: and especially I think what in this particular area the

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Speaker 2: it's a very strange area when you get into the literature,

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Speaker 2: the study of the New Testament used to the Old

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Speaker 2: it's it's amazing to me how I hate to say this,

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Speaker 2: but for these past few generations, the Old Testament is

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Speaker 2: the missing link in the in the research. And so

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Speaker 2: it's a very very strange area of research where you

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Speaker 2: have all sorts of bizarre things being said in this

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Speaker 2: area of scholarship, especially, you know when once there's talk

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Speaker 2: of our hermonutics and their hermaonutics, as though it's a

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Speaker 2: hermautic unto itself, then all of a sudden, you know

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Speaker 2: that things are just being made up. I mean, and

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Speaker 2: that's that's not that's not a helpful way to go.

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Speaker 2: And I think maybe the other area that some of

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Speaker 2: your readers might listeners might be familiar with is there's

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Speaker 2: always a search among the scholarship of the New Testament

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Speaker 2: used to the Old four sort of a Second Temple

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Speaker 2: exegedical tradition that might kind of do this and the failure.

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Speaker 2: And there's nothing wrong with that, because that does have

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Speaker 2: absolutely some influence on how things go. But the failure

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Speaker 2: is to realize that almost all of the Second Temple

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Speaker 2: Jewish exegetical traditions are coming forward out of the Old Testament.

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Speaker 2: And what's very obvious from the New Testament is these

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Speaker 2: authors are studying the Old Testament, and so of course

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Speaker 2: we should expect to find similarities between Second Temple Jewish

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Speaker 2: exegedical traditions in the New Testament. I mean, they're all

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Speaker 2: drinking from the same kool aid in the Old Testament.

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Speaker 2: And the Old Testaments are very rich resource of extra

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Speaker 2: Jesus because the Old Testament authors for a thousand years before.

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Speaker 3: The days of Jesus.

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Speaker 2: We're executing earlier Old Testament texts, and so it's not

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Speaker 2: the slightest but surprising then that both second Tempo Jewish

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Speaker 2: exegetical traditions and the New Testament authors have similarities because

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Speaker 2: they're studying how to interpret the scriptures by how the

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Speaker 2: Old Testament scriptures interpret the Old Testament scriptures.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I found I discovered one of those when I

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Speaker 1: was studying the Book of Hebrews. Hebrews seven and deals

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Speaker 1: with a lot with Melchizedek, and you have these interesting

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Speaker 1: way in which Melchizedek's name is handled. So he's the

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Speaker 1: King of Righteousness, which is a play on the Hebrew

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Speaker 1: and then obviously king of Peace, which is a play

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Speaker 1: on his identification as the King of Salem. And so

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Speaker 1: you have this word play between Salem and Shalom, so

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Speaker 1: king of peace. He is without father and without mother,

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Speaker 1: without genealogy. You know, these kind of ideas that are

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Speaker 1: sort of drawn into Hebrew seven. And initially, if you

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Speaker 1: look at that and you go, what in the world

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Speaker 1: is the author of Hebrews doing with this guy? Like

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Speaker 1: he's a referenced twice in the Old Testament, you don't

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Speaker 1: get a lot of information about him. You know, he

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Speaker 1: shows up in Genesis fourteen, it's on them one ten,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of it.

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Speaker 3: Why is this guy such a big deal?

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Speaker 1: And then I got to look at the Dead Sea

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Speaker 1: scrolls eleven Q thirteen or sometimes called eleven Q Melchizedic,

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Speaker 1: and you see the almost the exact same use and

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Speaker 1: exa Jesus of his name that play on the names,

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Speaker 1: the play on the genealogy, and of course they make

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Speaker 1: Melchizedek into more of a Messianic figure who is to come,

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Speaker 1: whereas Hebrews identifies Melchizedic in that order with Christ.

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Speaker 3: So there are real differences, but you just start to.

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Speaker 1: Realize exactly what you're saying, that these Second Temple sort

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Speaker 1: of different traditions are sort of in the Ether. They're

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Speaker 1: reading the Old Testament in similar ways, and there are

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Speaker 1: trajectories within the interpretive matrix that make sense within that

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Speaker 1: particular period.

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Speaker 2: Because they're well, they're coming out of the Old Testament.

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Speaker 2: I mean, the Author of the Hebrews is a great example,

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Speaker 2: because when he's interested in Genesis, he doesn't quote Genesis,

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Speaker 2: he quotes Psalm eight. When he's interested in the Wilderness,

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Speaker 2: he doesn't quote Numbers or Exodus, he quotes Psalm ninety five.

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Speaker 2: When he's interested in Melchizdek, he's going through the grid,

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Speaker 2: so to speak of someone ten. When he's interested in

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Speaker 2: tabernacle sacrifices, he's in the Psalms. When he's interested in

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Speaker 2: the Covenant, he's in Jeremiah. So we find that he's

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Speaker 2: the Author of the Hebrews is navigating Torah, which is

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Speaker 2: what he's really interested in, but almost never quoting Tora,

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Speaker 2: because he's looking at how Tora was executed throughout the

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Speaker 2: Old Testament.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sort of a mediated look at the Torah

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Speaker 1: through that you slightly later tradition that's really faithfully trying

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Speaker 1: to understand and reflect on Torah, which is kind of cool.

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Speaker 3: He's almost cheating and using the commentary.

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Speaker 1: Doing what we tell students not to, right, don't use

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Speaker 1: the commentary first.

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Speaker 3: Go back to the real source.

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Speaker 2: But I think that that's why there's so much similarity. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and so in other words, there's nothing wrong to it's

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Speaker 2: helpful to look at Second Temple Jewish literature. The mistake

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Speaker 2: is when we don't look for the precedence and the

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Speaker 2: things that are coming out from the thousand years of

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Speaker 2: execuses in the Old Testament itself, which is what the

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Speaker 2: exegetical traditions we're studying, what the New Testament authors are

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Speaker 2: studying during this period.

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Speaker 3: Agreed.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you do a little bit just as we

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Speaker 1: think about again Old Testament use in the New We

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Speaker 1: obviously have clear quotations. But you wrote a piece for

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Speaker 1: Currents and Biblical Studies on this long lost grandparent text

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Speaker 1: of the New Testament, not parent text, but grandparent texts.

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Speaker 1: And I found this really compelling. I thought it was interesting.

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Speaker 1: I love the framing of it. So I'm wondering if

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Speaker 1: you can kind of walk us through that a little bit,

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Speaker 1: and then we'll talk a little bit more, just specifically

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Speaker 1: about how the Old Testament is used in the New.

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Speaker 2: Sure. So, what a lot of us are familiar with,

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Speaker 2: especially through the studies of the New Testament. Use of

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Speaker 2: the Old is what I call horizontal context, so that

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Speaker 2: the scholarship isn't just looking at the verse, but looking

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Speaker 2: at the surrounding paragraph in chapters. And I call it

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Speaker 2: horizontal context. But what hasn't been done enough is what

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Speaker 2: I call vertical context. And this runs both directions, but

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Speaker 2: a downward vertical context is the deep context. That is,

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Speaker 2: over eighty times the New Testament authors are quoting or

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Speaker 2: alluding to an Old Testament text, that itself is alluding

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Speaker 2: to an order Old Testament texts. We were just talking

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Speaker 2: about examples in Hebrews. And so when a New Testament

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Speaker 2: scholar goes down and stops and just looks at the

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Speaker 2: horizontal context of the seid a verse, that's not good

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Speaker 2: enough when that versus citing us still earlier verse. We

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Speaker 2: need to go down the horizontal con sorry vertical context

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Speaker 2: further to the deep context, because that's really what's in

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Speaker 2: view that that's what's driving I call it progressive revelation forward.

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Speaker 2: The advancement of revelation is that original donor text that's

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Speaker 2: being interpreted again and again in the scriptures.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, do you see that in something like you know,

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Speaker 1: the proto of Bengelian in Genesis three, right where we

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Speaker 1: see the serpent's head being crushed by the son of

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Speaker 1: Eve versus what we see in Romans. I believe it's

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Speaker 1: fifteen or sixteen. I'm blanking on the exact verse. But

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Speaker 1: where the church now takes that role and they're supposed

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Speaker 1: to crush the.

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Speaker 3: Serpent under the head.

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Speaker 1: I've always sort of looked at that and said, you know, yes,

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Speaker 1: this is sort of a gesturing forward in Genesis three,

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Speaker 1: maybe to a Messianic figure of some sort, but we

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Speaker 1: really can't then stop it at Christ when in Romans.

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Speaker 3: Sixteen it's being applied to the church.

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Speaker 1: Is that the sort of vertical depth you're talking about?

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Speaker 3: Or could you give a better example than that?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, that's a good example of what we

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Speaker 2: call the what I call I think people usually say

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Speaker 2: the one and the many. I'd like to talk about

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Speaker 2: the individual versus the collective. And so there's that constant

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Speaker 2: interchange between the individual and the collective. And there's many,

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Speaker 2: many examples of that. The one you just cided as

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Speaker 2: a good one. But where let's say, Isaiah fifty five

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Speaker 2: is quoting from the Covenant actually an interpretation of the

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Speaker 2: Dividic Covenant in David's last word in Second Samuel twenty three.

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Speaker 2: And so that's a really powerful example because he's citing

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Speaker 2: the Davidic Covenant, but he says, y'all says you plural,

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Speaker 2: it's to you collectively. And so then there's a sense

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Speaker 2: in which, of course the Davidic Covenant is an individual

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Speaker 2: covenant to David in his dynasty, and it refers to

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Speaker 2: these davidict messiahs. But then there's a broader sense in

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Speaker 2: which no, no, no, the king is Israel, the King is

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Speaker 2: the covenantal people. Yeah, so when we see Second Chronicles

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Speaker 2: chapter six site Isaiah fifty five, or we see Paul

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Speaker 2: cite Isaiah fifty five, they're both taking advantage of that

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Speaker 2: collective sense, so that what Christ does comes over into

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Speaker 2: the Son of God the Church.

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Speaker 3: I see, Yeah, no, that's helpful.

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Speaker 2: So I think though maybe an example of this vertical

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Speaker 2: context might be something like Zachariah nine to nine, where

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Speaker 2: the donkey is coming. The king is writing a donkey

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Speaker 2: into Jerusalem, and so there's a very distinctive donkey language

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Speaker 2: in that, so that the kind of the mother text,

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Speaker 2: so to speak, or the grandparent text, is the blessing

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Speaker 2: of Judah in Genesis forty nine. And so if in

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Speaker 2: Genesis forty nine, the Judah King comes into the vineyard

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Speaker 2: and ties up the donkey to a vine of all things,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's no old West tumbleweed's going by. It's

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Speaker 2: a very lush place. Where where else you're going to

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Speaker 2: tie a donkey up?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And what the what Zachariah does is he he kind

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Speaker 2: of gives a vision of Okay, if the Judah King

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Speaker 2: is in Judah in the vineyard with a donkey, what

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Speaker 2: happens before that? So he creates a prequel of the

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Speaker 2: king riding a donkey into the city. But what's really remarkable,

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Speaker 2: you know? You have that. So that's the parent text

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Speaker 2: and the grandparent text, if you will. And then the

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Speaker 2: child text is all the citations in the New Testament.

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Speaker 2: But what Zachariah does is he has the control text

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Speaker 2: back there in Genesis forty nine, the promise of the

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Speaker 2: Judah King, but he mixes it together with what we

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Speaker 2: call Isaiah sixty two eleven, daughter Zion, see here comes

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Speaker 2: your king righteous. But then maybe the most remarkable thing,

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Speaker 2: and I hadn't noticed this until Mark Bodis commentary on

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Speaker 2: Zachariah came out. But the king is saved riding on

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Speaker 2: a donkey, saved passive, and so it's a very remarkable thing.

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Speaker 2: But digging around just a little bit, all of a sudden, Wow,

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Speaker 2: it's the song of David where he talks about that

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Speaker 2: the humble are the ones that you have saved. And

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Speaker 2: so you find the very same language out of David's mouth,

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Speaker 2: of all things, and so we can see that, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's the main interpretive blend between Isaiah sixty two and

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Speaker 2: Genesis forty nine, but then there's these minor themes that

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Speaker 2: really enrich it in a really surprising way, where we

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Speaker 2: have this humble saved king coming in on the donkey,

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Speaker 2: and of course the gospel writers use this in very

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Speaker 2: remarkable ways. It's not quoted in Mark, but we find

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Speaker 2: right this is a prelude to Jesus coming into the

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Speaker 2: city talking about how the the vine growers beat up

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Speaker 2: the sun and kill him and toss him out of

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Speaker 2: the city, and then he is crucified as the king

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Speaker 2: of the Jews. So it's just really remarkable how the

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Speaker 2: the deep context drives forward and provides such a rich way,

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Speaker 2: theological way for the New Testament authors to present the

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Speaker 2: Gospel of Christ.

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Speaker 1: What I find fascinating about all of that, aside from

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Speaker 1: all the different interconnections, is if you think through, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you thought through your big ten texts in the

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Speaker 1: Old Testament, that probably doesn't make the list, right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, Genesis forty nine is not one that we

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Speaker 1: spend a ton of time on, and you know, Zechariah

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Speaker 1: is is sort of not a book that most of us,

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Speaker 1: you know, we spend a whole lot of time on.

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Speaker 1: And yet that scene of Jesus riding in on the donkey,

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Speaker 1: I mean have a whole Sunday dedicated to that, right,

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Speaker 1: And so you have the New Testament authors really picking

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Speaker 1: up these fairly nuanced, sort of Old Testament texts and

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Speaker 1: understandings that are by no means like these big major

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Speaker 1: ideas that we would necessarily see in you know, when

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Speaker 1: we're reading the Old Testament. They're pulling these little strands

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Speaker 1: together in pretty intricate ways and then showing how Jesus's

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Speaker 1: life is the extension of that patterning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right that our favorite texts in

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Speaker 2: the Bible are different than the biblical author's favorite texts, right,

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Speaker 2: because some of the ones that we really don't spend

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Speaker 2: much time and they go to again and again. And

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Speaker 2: the way it works is the more that a text

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Speaker 2: is executed by authoritative exegetes as scriptural authors, the more

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Speaker 2: it has to offer. So it's not ever depleted. It

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Speaker 2: actually builds up in theological and exogenical connotations that later

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Speaker 2: biblical authors can take advantage of in more and more

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Speaker 2: subtle ways. They can do bigger things with less work

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Speaker 2: as the advancement of revelation moves forward. Yeah, so that's

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Speaker 2: one one case where we kind of go down from

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Speaker 2: right to Zachariah down to Genesis. But there's other cases

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Speaker 2: where this vertical context we call it a trace.

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Speaker 3: So that.

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Speaker 2: And I just want to use a clear example to

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Speaker 2: not be confusing. And I know you're one of your professors.

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Speaker 2: Greg Biale did a lot with this. He talks about how,

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Speaker 2: you know, there's this text that the New Testament quotes,

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Speaker 2: and the New Testament doesn't quote the other Old Testament

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Speaker 2: texts that quote it, but they're actually controlling what's going on.

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Speaker 2: So for example, in as we're chapter one, there's some

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Speaker 2: the people are coming back to the land, and so

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Speaker 2: there's this typology of the First Exodus that's sort of

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Speaker 2: in the background as that people come back in a

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Speaker 2: new Exodus to Judah. And what the author of as

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Speaker 2: Reniam I does not do doesn't bother quoting Isaiah and

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Speaker 2: the New Exodus, and so we kind of have the

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Speaker 2: same thing going on in the New Testament. The New

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Speaker 2: Exodus of Isaiah provides this sort of way of using

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Speaker 2: the original Exodus typologically. And so there's just this reading

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Speaker 2: of Jesus the Messiah right up against Torah. And we

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Speaker 2: call it a trace because we can't prove that it's

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Speaker 2: really Isaiah on the mind because it's not quoted, but

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Speaker 2: it's really a control text or a control set of

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Speaker 2: texts that sort of is part of that vertical context.

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Speaker 2: And maybe it's I don't want to get too carried

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Speaker 2: away with this metaphor, but it's like if there's the

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Speaker 2: grandfather text and then there's these uncles and cousin texts

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Speaker 2: out there, if.

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Speaker 3: You will no, I mean it makes sense.

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Speaker 1: It feels like to me the traces are almost like

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Speaker 1: an extension of the horizontal context. So when I think

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Speaker 1: of it, I almost think of it like Saturn, the

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Speaker 1: planet Saturn. You have the core planet, and then you

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Speaker 1: have the rings that are going around it, and these

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Speaker 1: other texts that are sort of surrounding the planet, or

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Speaker 1: are those texts that are flipping around and they make

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Speaker 1: Saturn what it is now, there's obviously a near context

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Speaker 1: in which all of those passengers are used, and.

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Speaker 3: We want to pay attention to that.

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Speaker 1: But the reality is that we can't get so caught

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Speaker 1: up that we get myopically focused only on the six

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Speaker 1: verses that surround this thing. There has to be a

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Speaker 1: recognition that there's an interpretive trajectory in the Old Testament

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Speaker 1: that's using this theme, these verses, these ideas that are

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Speaker 1: swimming around that's being pulled across into the New Testament.

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Speaker 1: And to your point, we have to be careful with

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Speaker 1: that because if it's not quoted, it's easy for us

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Speaker 1: to import something that maybe isn't there. And so I

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Speaker 1: think there's a sense in which the sense making sort

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Speaker 1: of is this coherent? Does it make sense? Maybe a

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Speaker 1: good question is is it plausible? You know, is probably

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Speaker 1: where we land on a lot of those trace texts.

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Speaker 1: Is that a fair assessment in your mind?

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Speaker 2: I think so, and I think you're getting it. The

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Speaker 2: more important thing, and if I were to summarize back

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Speaker 2: to what you're saying, if we're to understand what the

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Speaker 2: New Testament is doing with the Old, we really really

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Speaker 2: need to know the Old Testament, because that's what the

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Speaker 2: New Testament authors, that's what Christ, that's what these teachers

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Speaker 2: are doing. But we can also, I guess, be helped

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Speaker 2: by analogy in more subtle and difficult ways. So let's

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Speaker 2: say we were just talking about I can use an example.

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Speaker 2: In the beginning of Mark one, two and three, he

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Speaker 2: cites Isaiah, but then he's really doing Malachi, who's using

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Speaker 2: Isaiah and really doing something with Exodus twenty three, twenty

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Speaker 2: and twenty one. Yeah, and so there's this So it's

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Speaker 2: this rich vertical context, but there's so many views of

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Speaker 2: why would he say Isaiah says, but then kind of

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Speaker 2: blend together these various.

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Speaker 3: Texts, imlay and yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: The top two views are well, it's a mistake, that's

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Speaker 2: one view, and the other top view is well, this

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Speaker 2: is this second Temple Jewish thing, right, Well, okay, those

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Speaker 2: are fine ideas, but this happens in the Old Testament. So,

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Speaker 2: for example, in Second Chronicles thirty six, verse twenty one,

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Speaker 2: the chronicler cites Jeremiah, but then blends the seventy years

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Speaker 2: of Jeremiah with what we would call a passage here

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Speaker 2: in Leviticus chapter twenty six. So he's he's citing one,

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Speaker 2: but really his U U and I guide us with

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Speaker 2: the seventy years. But really it's the covenental language of

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Speaker 2: Leviticu's twenty six, which is playing the bigger role in

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Speaker 2: the destruction of Jerusalem there and so this and this

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Speaker 2: is a particularly important text out. That's why I wanted

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Speaker 2: to bring this up. Is this fulfillment formula there in

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Speaker 2: Second Chronicles thirty six, verse twenty one. It's maybe, uh,

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Speaker 2: let's just pretend Mark was written first, and so he's

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Speaker 2: this very iconic beginning. Well, it seems like Matthew might

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Speaker 2: have caught wind of this, because when we look at

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Speaker 2: the fulfillment formula in Matthew, he's, yeah, I'm gonna read

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Speaker 2: this sea from from the Bible. I mark this ahead

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Speaker 2: of time. Okay, this is Second Chronicles thirty six, twenty one.

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Speaker 2: He's using the word fulfill not as a call but

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Speaker 2: a pel So it's that's what you have to do

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Speaker 2: to fulfill a word, not just a time, but to

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Speaker 2: actualize a word into reality. So the chronicler says, to

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Speaker 2: fulfill the word of Yahweh by the mouth of Jeremiah.

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Speaker 2: Let me follow this right up with Matthew chapter one.

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Speaker 2: All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had

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Speaker 2: said through the prophet Matthew chapter two, and so it's

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Speaker 2: fulfilled what the Lord said through the prophet. Here Matthew's

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Speaker 2: kind of coming right off of this. That's okay, yeah, no,

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Speaker 2: that's that mixes it up because I'm going on on

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Speaker 2: and on with this boring converce.

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Speaker 3: But no, no, you're good talking about grammar.

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Speaker 2: But the shift to the pl is so significant. But

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Speaker 2: that's all of a sudden. What we see Matthew doing

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Speaker 2: is he's talking about fulfilling a word, and he's he's

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Speaker 2: looking at it right off the same sort of plane,

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Speaker 2: if you will, as what we saw in the beginning

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Speaker 2: part of Mark. Mark's not using that language, but Matthew

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Speaker 2: is coming along and using the language from the same place.

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Speaker 1: And just to give everybody at home, the cow and

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Speaker 1: the pl or forms in Hebrews, so you can think

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Speaker 1: of him as different forms of the same word, and

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Speaker 1: when they're in that particular form, they can take on

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Speaker 1: a different meaning. And so for instance, there's another form

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Speaker 1: called the hithhil, and the hithil often has more of

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Speaker 1: a forceful, assertive or causative sort of nuance to it.

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Speaker 1: Not in every case, you don't want to stare type

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Speaker 1: these things, but just give an example. The pl has

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Speaker 1: that same sort of strengthening to it. But in this case,

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Speaker 1: what you're suggesting is that the cow, which is sort

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Speaker 1: of the base form we could think of it as

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Speaker 1: in Hebrew, is really talking about the fulfillment of an

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Speaker 1: act doing something, versus the pl, which has the nuance

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Speaker 1: of actually getting something done.

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Speaker 3: That's been said is that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And especially the call form, the vanilla form

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Speaker 2: yes of fulfill Malt is used to say a duration

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Speaker 2: of time. So that's what Daniel he's thinking about.

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Speaker 3: The seventy duration of time, got it?

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Speaker 2: Whereas the pl, which is a more intensive it's it's

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Speaker 2: it's rare for that word to be used in fulfill.

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Speaker 2: It's only about five times in the Old Testament, two

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Speaker 2: of them and then two are parallel. But there we

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Speaker 2: have a word isn't separate like so it's not like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: here's a protection, here's a conclusion. Because it's God's word,

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Speaker 2: it initiates the reality of what it speaks about. God's

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Speaker 2: prophetic word binds reality to itself, so that because of

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Speaker 2: what he said has to come to past if you will,

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Speaker 2: it is enacted into reality. And so the pl catches

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Speaker 2: that sense, I sit, an actual word can be fulfilled,

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Speaker 2: it can be enacted into reality.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, that's really helpful, and I think it makes

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Speaker 1: more sense of the Metheian use of fulfillment, particularly when

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Speaker 1: we get into the odd ones in Matthew, which we

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Speaker 1: get probably turned to. So there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: Old Testament quotations in the New Testament that are relatively

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Speaker 1: transparent to understand. Right these are what we normally think

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Speaker 1: of as maybe rightly or wrongly, here's a prediction, and

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Speaker 1: then there is a there's this moment where we see

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Speaker 1: that prediction worked out in a very specific way. And

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Speaker 1: I think that's overly simplistic, but a lot of times

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Speaker 1: we can see those things and they're a little easier

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Speaker 1: for people to grasp. The reality is that I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of times what we're looking at is more

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Speaker 1: of a patterning that's coming into focus as we get

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Speaker 1: into the New Testament, and that's what opens it up

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Speaker 1: to something we talked about at the beginning of the podcast,

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Speaker 1: like the Hoseiah quotation in Matthew, which is difficult to

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Speaker 1: even understand as a prophecy other than it comes out

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Speaker 1: of Hoseia.

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Speaker 3: So maybe we can talk through that a little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's a really good example. That's probably

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Speaker 2: the textbook example that a lot of people go to.

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Speaker 2: And I think that, I mean, you said it. We

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Speaker 2: can imagine somebody buys a new Bible and there's a

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Speaker 2: page in this new Bible with Versus in the left

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Speaker 2: column and Versus in the right column, and it was like, wow,

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Speaker 2: it's an incredible page, and it really brings a lot

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Speaker 2: of comfort to the reader to know that everything lines up.

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Speaker 2: And as long as the reader doesn't look those verses up,

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Speaker 2: everything's okay, everything's great. Yeah, it's when the reader starts

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Speaker 2: to look things up there like there's something wrong with

433
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,479
Speaker 2: my Bible. And you know, how come it's like this

434
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: because there's actually very few that line up the way

435
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 2: we want them to. And even those, if we prob

436
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,240
Speaker 2: a little deeper, like we were just talking about Zacharian nine. Well,

437
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 2: that that's poetry in this, so it only there's a

438
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 2: poetic shaped reality that makes it work. It wouldn't have

439
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: had to quite be that way. So when we look

440
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: back at jose eleven, he's Josea is looking backward at

441
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: the Exodus. I mean, you're alluding to that. There's no

442
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 2: prediction there at all, But he kind of mixes the

443
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,880
Speaker 2: language what we would call Deuteronomy chapter seven, verse eight,

444
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 2: which begins, but it was because YAHWEH loved you Israel

445
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: and so on, and brought you up out of Egypt.

446
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 2: And so what Joseah does is mixes that with well,

447
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,440
Speaker 2: this is what most people think anyway. I think it's

448
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:24,239
Speaker 2: probably right that in Exodus four that I know that

449
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: Pharaoh is not going to let my son go, so

450
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill his son because you'll let my

451
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,880
Speaker 2: son go. So jose sort of mixes together this this

452
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 2: loved Israel with my son. But what troubles I guess

453
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: us when we look at Joseiah is he's looking backward,

454
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 2: and so there's no prediction there. So where does Matthew

455
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: get off saying? So this was to fulfill what was

456
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: said by the prophet, and I just read that a

457
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: minute ago, which Matthew practically takes right out of Second

458
00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 2: Chronicles thirty six. Right, Well, Matthew is not only using

459
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:06,080
Speaker 2: the fulfillment formula in a Chronicles like way. When we

460
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: go a little bit further into Hosea, we realize, oh,

461
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 2: Joseiah is often going backward and typologically reading historical facts

462
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 2: coming forward. So in Hoseiah chapter twelve, he does this

463
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: very thing with Jacob's life, very famously goes through a

464
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: series of allusions to Jacob, and there's no prediction there.

465
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: This is a narrative about this ornery guy who kind

466
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: of deceives people and wrestles with people and so forth.

467
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: But Hoseiah reads that forward and talks about how these

468
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 2: people who at Bethel are worshiping this idol of their God,

469
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: they need to find Yahweh there. And so what Hoseiah

470
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: is doing is he's, or we'll say, Matthew Matthews reading

471
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: Hoseiah in a very Hosea like way, somebody who's this

472
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 2: prophet who's looking at historical narratives with no prediction but

473
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 2: seeing how these teachings reach forward. And Matthew's doing he's

474
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: he's reading Hoseah with the grain, so to speak. He's

475
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 2: doing with Hoseah what Hosea does with Hoseiah.

476
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

477
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good way to put it. I think

478
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: even some of the more straightforward ones. The one I've

479
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: worked with the most and the people tend to ask

480
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 1: me to ask me about the most is the virgin birth,

481
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 1: you know, Isaiah seven fourteen, and I think you have

482
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: something very similar going on there that that Matthew is

483
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: not looking at this as if there's a you know,

484
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: the way it's normally thought through is there's a sign

485
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: that makes sense, you know, in the context that's given

486
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: to a Has, and then there's a this is a

487
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: further sign, sort of a you know in Christ. My

488
00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: reading of it is, you know, one of the worst

489
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 1: things you could possibly get when you're going into war

490
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: as a baby and so and so for a HAS,

491
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: it's like, here's your sign, a HAS, You're going to

492
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: get a baby.

493
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 3: And the bad thing about this baby is that it

494
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 3: ain't gonna help you fight, like you're done.

495
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: But the good thing about the baby is that it's

496
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: going to grow up, and so all is not lost.

497
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: Like the baby represents no help in the presence but

498
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: hope for the future. And I think that Matthew is

499
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: playing with something like that when he cites the isaiahsm.

500
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: Fourteen and the virgin birth. Is that what we're supposed

501
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: to conjure up almost is that look at this vulnerable

502
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: child who is now the hope of the world kind

503
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 1: of idea. But it's not a one to one that

504
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 1: whole conversation about al Mah, which is young woman and

505
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: Hebrew and doesn't necessarily connote.

506
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 3: Virgin, at least in my reading of it. And then

507
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 3: you have the more.

508
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: Specific word for virgin use in Greek in Matthew. This

509
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: is very confusing for people because if we read fulfillment

510
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: in terms of it was said back here and it

511
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: needs to be completed up here, now we have a

512
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: misunderstanding of how that can come over and the ways

513
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 1: that the New Testament writer.

514
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 3: Is really using that. So I don't know whether you

515
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 3: want to comment on that too, but it just.

516
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's exactly the point about fulfillment is

517
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 2: sort of we're we have a certain prediction fulfillment sort

518
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: of mechanism in the English language, and so we would

519
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: look at Hoseiah at eleven one there's no prediction here,

520
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: so how can it be fulfilled?

521
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: Right?

522
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 2: And it's a little bit different. There is actually a

523
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: prediction in Isaiah seven, but it's that's another one of

524
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,240
Speaker 2: these ones where I think one of the things that

525
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: helps us is it's to y'all. Right, it's a signed

526
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: to y'all. It's not a sign to you personally A has,

527
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: but to y' all the collective that A has represents.

528
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: And so then there's something bigger that we can see

529
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 2: even as but I don't want to trouble your readers,

530
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: but as the editor of the Book of Isaiah put

531
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: together what we call Isaiah eight through ten right on

532
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:22,920
Speaker 2: the back of Isaiah seven, then all of a sudden,

533
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: we're reading this am Manuel together with the child that

534
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: is come for us, and so there's this bigger reality

535
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,680
Speaker 2: for y'all. Then maybe just the trouble of sign child

536
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: for a has personally you brought up really well.

537
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great way to

538
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 1: think of it, you know, when we think about this,

539
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: because I do think the prophecy fulfillment sort of a language,

540
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: especially in English, conveys something very very specific, and I've

541
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: always sort of opted to talk about that patterning that

542
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 1: comes across it's it's very clear to what you'd read

543
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: in like the Book of Hebrews, the copies and shadows,

544
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:12,399
Speaker 1: that these are gesturing forward to something more, but not

545
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: necessarily one more thing. Now they find their ultimacy in Christ.

546
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: But you can watch that advance toward Christ, and you

547
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: can see even that you know it takes on now

548
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,319
Speaker 1: that even Christ is the substance. It's not as if

549
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: these things have lost complete meaning.

550
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 3: And so you have that sort of beautiful patterned progression

551
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 3: moving forward.

552
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: And that's the way I've tended to think about prophecy

553
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: and fulfillment, or at least try to help people understand it.

554
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 3: A little differently. But I'm wondering if you have a

555
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 3: better way.

556
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 2: No, I think that what we might want to do

557
00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 2: is expect sort of a richer and more dynamic sort

558
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: of when we go back to the Old Testament, expect

559
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 2: more of it. So even in Matthew chapter two, a

560
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:06,719
Speaker 2: little further on, there's the quotation of from Jeremiah thirty one,

561
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 2: where after the slaughter of the Bethlehem children, Rachel refuses

562
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,280
Speaker 2: to be comforted. Now we go back to a text

563
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 2: like that, though there's this again grandparent texts waiting for

564
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 2: us because what Jeremiah's doing when he says he's being

565
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 2: a little bit poetic here, right, Rachel's weeping for her children.

566
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: He's talking about this exile moment, and she's refusing to

567
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 2: be comforted because they are no more. Well, that language

568
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 2: is out of Genesis, and so we have this. It's

569
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 2: Jacob who, when he sees the bloody coat, refuses to

570
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 2: be comforted. And it's the children who remember that Jacob says,

571
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: my son is no more. So there's this really something

572
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,399
Speaker 2: rich going on with uh. We think of Bethlehem, right

573
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: is where Rachel dies, and she's being her typical selfishself. Right,

574
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: She's she's not crying. She's crying not because she's going

575
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: to die, but but she well because she's going to

576
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 2: excuse me. But she names her child after this not

577
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 2: a good name, because she always gives children, right, Joseph

578
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 2: is I hope I have another kid? And Benjamin is

579
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 2: well Benny by child of my like, she's not worried

580
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 2: about the kids. She's giving the kids names about her

581
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: contest with her sister Leah. But anyway, that the point

582
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 2: here is that we shouldn't have like this checklist thing.

583
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 2: And I think that that that page in our Bible

584
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: with the things on the left and right, attempts to say, okay,

585
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 2: here's another one check the children are weeping, there's a

586
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 2: fulfillment of Jeremiah thirty one. Well, I think we need

587
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 2: to be invited backwards and say, there's something really rich

588
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: going on here. This is a very surprising thing that

589
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:12,720
Speaker 2: Jeremiah did by naming Rachel, which is the perfect tag

590
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: for this bethelhen trouble later, but then actually referring to

591
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 2: the morning of Jacob for a son that actually wasn't

592
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 2: lost yet, a son that he was going to get

593
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 2: back one day. So I mean, there's a real richness

594
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,840
Speaker 2: that we cut ourselves off from when we're worried about

595
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: just checking the box of prediction fulfillment. And again, it

596
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 2: probably only works that way when we make these pages

597
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 2: and study Bibles. It doesn't actually work that way in

598
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 2: the Bible.

599
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: It does.

600
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: I think you bring up a really excellent point, because

601
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: I think it cultivates a wrong orientation that becomes problematic

602
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: when we hit certain texts.

603
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 3: So I'm thinking specifically of one Corinthians.

604
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: Seven and the way that Paul uses the creation there

605
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: to talk about man being made in God's image and

606
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: being the glory of God and the woman being the.

607
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 3: Glory of man.

608
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: And you just sit back and you're like, well, Paul,

609
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: weren't you know all men created in God's image, male

610
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: and female?

611
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 3: He created them? Like what are you doing there?

612
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: And if we're so stuck on the cross reference, like

613
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: it goes from here to here, that's a real tension point.

614
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,479
Speaker 1: If we're willing to let Paul be more poetic as

615
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: Jeremiah as being more poetic, as joseas being more poetic,

616
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,800
Speaker 1: as Matthew's being more poetic, if we're allowing him some

617
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 1: freedom to do with this text something that.

618
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,240
Speaker 3: Is drawing for the whole tradition, not just.

619
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 1: Going back and citing one particular verse or trying to

620
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 1: deny one doctor or another.

621
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 3: It gets a little easier to reach.

622
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 1: It's not like we it's not at all smooth out

623
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: and there's no other problems, but it does allow you

624
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 1: to make some more sense of those texts, as opposed

625
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: to saying, well, it has to be this way because

626
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: Paul's saying it about creation, and there's a creative order,

627
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: and so obviously this is just what it is. That

628
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 1: First Corinthian seven passage is one that I've I've studied

629
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,359
Speaker 1: a little bit more than most, and you just sort

630
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,799
Speaker 1: of have to go with Paul a little bit. You

631
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 1: have to trust that he's you know, what he's doing

632
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: makes sense to him because a very difficult text. But

633
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think the cross referencing and that

634
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: sort of strict prophecy fulfillment or you know, this notion

635
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,240
Speaker 1: that if he's quoting a normative text in the Old Testament,

636
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: it's obviously you know, sort of sanch Or Sagington the

637
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: New I think those sort of tendencies need to be

638
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: exploded a bit.

639
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that you're doing something really great.

640
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: I appreciate that you bring me onto your pro today

641
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 2: to talk about New Testament Extra Jesus, because I think that,

642
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,360
Speaker 2: like this book, Old Testament use of Old Testament in parallel,

643
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 2: it's obvious to people in Old Testament, And if there

644
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 2: is such a thing as people interested in the Old Testament,

645
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,240
Speaker 2: it's obvious what it's used for there. But what's really

646
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 2: important and not done enough is how the Old Testament

647
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 2: enriches our understanding of the New Testament. Because this is

648
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: the go too. This is where the New Testament authors

649
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 2: lived as teachers, and so they're not doing something weird.

650
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 2: It's only weird if we don't understand the Old Testament.

651
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 2: They're doing very straightforward exegetical theological maneuvers within the framework

652
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 2: of the Old Testament that has been going on for

653
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 2: a thousand years before their days, and they're they're bringing

654
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: that forward to the glory of God. You know, for

655
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,800
Speaker 2: us in the Church, we just chopped the New Testament off.

656
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: Then it seems very strange because we're trying to say, well,

657
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 2: how does this early church writings relate to my life

658
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 2: here in the modern world. Well, we need to connect

659
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: ourselves back into the vibrant biblical framework that you know,

660
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: we might call it the Bible of Jesus that comes

661
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 2: forward into the Gospel of Christ.

662
00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: Maybe one last question before we end here. But one

663
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: of the things that I've noticed is we do you know,

664
00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: as I see people doing Old Testament use in the

665
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 1: New there's a claim that says, well, the New Testament

666
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,399
Speaker 1: writers can do this because they're the New Testament writers,

667
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: But it isn't a methodology that we should adopt. You

668
00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: I think you may have referenced this at the beginning

669
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,720
Speaker 1: of the episode when you're talking about their Hermi Munich

670
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 1: versus our hermon Mudic. I think this is probably part

671
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: of what you were referring to, but maybe not. But

672
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 1: this notion that while they were inspired, so they can

673
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: do whatever they want. So when Paul does the play

674
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: and Galatians, you know, the Child the Promise versus the

675
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 1: Child of the Flesh, and does the whole Hagar versus

676
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:20,759
Speaker 1: Sarahi thing, you know, it's like, that's something Paul can

677
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: pull up. But we should really stay away from those

678
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,240
Speaker 1: exegetical gymnastics, like we're gonna pull muscles all over the place.

679
00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: How do you think about that? And our need to

680
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: have a degree of rigor in the way that we

681
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: look at the text and understand the text, but also

682
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: a degree of play a looseness to it so that

683
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: we're not missing things that we really should be connecting.

684
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:51,879
Speaker 2: Yeah. I have a little book that I put out

685
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 2: as a co author book with a New Testament guy

686
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty three or twenty twenty four. I don't

687
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:00,760
Speaker 2: remember well how to study the Bible, use of the Bible,

688
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 2: and it's trying to reframe this whole thing that it's not.

689
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: We can't just do the New Testament use of the

690
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 2: Old or we come up with this all this weird stuff.

691
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,720
Speaker 2: We have to work in the framework of the Bible's

692
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: use of the Bible, because that's what the New Testament

693
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 2: authors are doing. They're not doing something new, they're not

694
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 2: doing this one off. And so the claim that we

695
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: make there and that I make, is we just use

696
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,720
Speaker 2: plain sense, execess plain sentence reading. That's what the Biblical

697
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,399
Speaker 2: authors did, That's what we should do. And it's when

698
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 2: we start getting weird because we've cut off the Old

699
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: Testament that we have problems. So one good example is

700
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 2: there's a lot of use of this term by New

701
00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 2: Testament use of the Old scholarship census plentier, which just

702
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 2: means fuller meaning yes. And so the whole point of

703
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 2: that is the Biblical authors don't know what they're saying

704
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 2: because there's a fuller meaning that God has in mind.

705
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 2: So the Biblical authors are saying one thing, but God

706
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 2: has in mind something else, and he has this fuller

707
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 2: meaning that we can only see in retrospect. But really,

708
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 2: the even the better versions of that site, well, the

709
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 2: fuller meaning is the full conon of the Bible. Well, okay,

710
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 2: but no Biblical author, no New Testament author, had the

711
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 2: full canon. So that is to say, no Biblical author

712
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: understood what they're talking about.

713
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 3: So it's crazy.

714
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 2: And so I think just to to say, when I'm

715
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 2: saying plain SENSEX to Jesus, to be fair and to

716
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: kind of go with what you're saying. I don't think

717
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: that I would just want to say we need to

718
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:47,359
Speaker 2: be looser. Right. It's not that we're playing fast and loose,

719
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: but that is, we need to read the Bible the

720
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 2: way the Biblical authors read the Bible. We need to

721
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 2: treat the Bible the way they did. And so we've

722
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: looked at a few examples in this episode. Come to

723
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: hose On, Hosea's terms, come to Chronicles on Chronicles terms

724
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 2: come to Matthew Mark, and I think those are the

725
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 2: main pastor of Hebrews on their own terms. And so

726
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 2: it's not a looseness relative to say the rules of

727
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,279
Speaker 2: plain sense. It's plain senses, reading with the grain, reading

728
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 2: Joseiah the way Josea reads scripture. That's plain SENSEX of Jesus.

729
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 2: So I think I think you're kindred, but I just

730
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: in my classroom. I'm not telling my students, Oh no,

731
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 2: just do whatever you want. I mean, that's not what

732
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 2: I'm saying. I'm saying, study the Bible and do what

733
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: they do.

734
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was interesting, I will say when I taught hermaonutics,

735
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 1: you know, we often we can define hermaeutics as the

736
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: art and science of Biblical interpretation, let's say. And I

737
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: would almost always start with the art, and I'd try

738
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 1: to help them understand because I found when I was

739
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: teaching them the science of it, sort of the more

740
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: structured pieces they had trouble getting out of that. But

741
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 1: if I could go to passages that demonstrated the art

742
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: of this that you know, you're not just looking at

743
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: the primary colors and isolation, you're actually seeing a full

744
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: painting done and going, look, this is what we can.

745
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,720
Speaker 3: Create, they caught it a lot better.

746
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 1: And then they could understand why they're using the techniques

747
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 1: that they're using because they have a vision of what

748
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: they're getting to. And passages like that with you know,

749
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: Paul Galatians, or even some of the things in Revelation,

750
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: you know, Hebrews.

751
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:31,760
Speaker 3: The way they're using these.

752
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: Old Testament texts was just fascinating, and I think they

753
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 1: hope they caught a glimpse of what that art really is,

754
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: which is, as you're saying, a real deep understanding of

755
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: the Old Testament and growing and deep understanding of the

756
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 1: Old Testament to understand the New Testament.

757
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and I think that to your point then

758
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: it's it might seem like a looseness compared to yes,

759
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 2: sort of the sort of rigid approach that we might

760
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: take as we're trying to be conservative and faithful to

761
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 2: the text, but we're using we're imposing modern logic on it.

762
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,960
Speaker 2: We're not getting into the literature of the scriptures and

763
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 2: seeing that logic move forward. And so so it's in

764
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:22,759
Speaker 2: plain sense, Exe Jesus, but in respect to what God

765
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,360
Speaker 2: has been pleased to reveal by the Spirit of God.

766
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 3: Yeah.

767
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: We had Norman Wurzba on the program and he talked

768
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 1: a little bit about mastery in the two different senses

769
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 1: of the word mastery, and it just strikes me that

770
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,719
Speaker 1: this is sort of what we're both talking about. But

771
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: you know, there's a sense of mastery where we can

772
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: have a dominating relationship, you know, we can force something

773
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: on someone else. But his understanding of mastery was what

774
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: you do when you try to learn the guitar, right,

775
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 1: you approach the guitar, and this guitar is capable of

776
00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 1: making this amazing music.

777
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,279
Speaker 3: In your role as gaining mastery of.

778
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 1: It is to learn how to do that, use it

779
00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: on its own terms, and be really really good at

780
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: it so that when you play music, people actually want

781
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: to listen to it. And it seems to me that

782
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: that is the sort of thing we're kind of talking

783
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: about with the Old Testament with a New Testament, that

784
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,240
Speaker 1: the development of mastery is a working with the text

785
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: and drawing out from the text what's already there so

786
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 1: that everything makes more and more and more sense and

787
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: we really do understand than what it is that the

788
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: text is trying to tell us. I think that's a

789
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 1: playing an instrument. You kind of get that idea of mastery.

790
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: And I think if we viewed not that I want

791
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,640
Speaker 1: to view the text as an instrument, but you get

792
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 1: the analogy, that's the same sort of mastery we're trying

793
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 1: to develop over the text.

794
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have to conform ourselves to the rules

795
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:02,759
Speaker 2: of the game, so to speak. Yeah, because you know,

796
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: we all cringe when somebody's picking up a violin and

797
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 2: a bow for the first time. Okay, but you know,

798
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,440
Speaker 2: you go to a symphony with somebody that does it

799
00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:17,240
Speaker 2: as a career and you're like, it's incredible. You can't

800
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 2: imagine how does what's the difference? You know? So it's

801
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 2: it's I remember it was a faculty meeting back in

802
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,320
Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties and the physical ed professor he was

803
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 2: trying to make an illustration, and so he was claiming

804
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 2: in the faculty meeting that he could play one note

805
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 2: of the piano just as well as this world class

806
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 2: musician that we worked on a faculty with. And I'm

807
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:45,319
Speaker 2: sitting there as a young faculty member saying, no, you couldn't, Like,

808
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 2: I don't think you could play one note on the

809
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 2: piano as good as this world renowned musician. You're comparing

810
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: yourself to it. Because he was just making an illustration,

811
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 2: try to break things down, and I agreed with his

812
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 2: larger point, just I disagreed with no. I mean, there's

813
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 2: there's there's something really wonderful about somebody that has that

814
00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:16,920
Speaker 2: kind of master that you're talking about.

815
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 1: I agree, I agree, Well, Gary, this has been fantastic.

816
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 1: These are the kind of conversations. I love I love

817
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: trying to get at what the Bible means and how

818
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: we understand what the Bible means, and so really appreciated

819
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: your work in this area, and this has been a

820
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:33,280
Speaker 1: great conversation.

821
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 3: So thank you very much for being here today.

822
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me on for these several things.

823
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 2: And I guess I guess it's time for me to

824
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:46,080
Speaker 2: move out of your studio now we wrapped.

825
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: Up, Yes, it's about that time, but you're always welcome back.

826
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: So thanks very much for being here for these series,

827
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: and thanks very much for the work you're doing. Check

828
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 1: out everything Gary does. You can find him. I'm gonna

829
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: to send you to his Carpenter's student website.

830
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 3: So it's Carpenter's student dot Substack dot com.

831
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: Well student dot com, Carpenter's.

832
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: Student dot com, my apologies, Carpenter's student dot com.

833
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 3: So that's two s's in the middle. Carpenter's plural student

834
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 3: starts with an S.

835
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 1: That link will be in the show notes, and we'll

836
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: have links to Gary's book as well. I think once

837
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: this episode airs, this book will at least be available

838
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: for pre order, if not available for actual order. It's

839
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: a two volume work but you can also find a

840
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:37,160
Speaker 1: lot of other Gary's works here and we've got those

841
00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: links in the show notes in Amazon and so just

842
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,760
Speaker 1: encourage you to check out his work at Carpenter's student

843
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,880
Speaker 1: dot com as well as his books that are available

844
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 1: and those links are in the show notes. So thanks

845
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: everybody for being with us, Thanks again, Gary for being here,

846
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 1: and we'll see all in the next episode of Thinking Christian.

847
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 3: Take Care,