1
00:00:02,700 --> 00:00:06,740
Speaker 1: Life Audio. So maybe tell us a little bit more,

2
00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,840
Speaker 1: what are these writings? And is there any reason to

3
00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,320
Speaker 1: believe that they threaten what you and I would believe

4
00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:13,640
Speaker 1: about the historical Jesus?

5
00:00:13,940 --> 00:00:15,360
Speaker 2: Jesus said a lot of things to a lot of

6
00:00:15,380 --> 00:00:17,319
Speaker 2: different people. Not everything is recorded in Matthew, Mark, and

7
00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:19,540
Speaker 2: Luke and John. You know, be good money changers. That

8
00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,340
Speaker 2: one shows it like all the church fathers keep citing

9
00:00:21,380 --> 00:00:22,880
Speaker 2: that one. It's not in the gospel. They're like, yeah,

10
00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:24,960
Speaker 2: Jesus definitely said that. Or be a prude money changer.

11
00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,060
Speaker 2: So you probably have not quite two dozen of these

12
00:00:28,180 --> 00:00:30,920
Speaker 2: sayings that just sort of floated. Some of these could

13
00:00:31,060 --> 00:00:34,239
Speaker 2: plausibly be authentic, because I think John 20 and John

14
00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,180
Speaker 2: 21 leave open that possibility. But there's just no way

15
00:00:37,220 --> 00:00:39,940
Speaker 2: to know for sure. And then others are so far

16
00:00:40,140 --> 00:00:43,780
Speaker 2: outside the rule of faith of early Christianity, it's almost

17
00:00:43,830 --> 00:00:47,190
Speaker 2: like they're trying to use Jesus as a vehicle for

18
00:00:47,550 --> 00:00:49,830
Speaker 2: aberrant views. And that becomes just more and more popular,

19
00:00:49,850 --> 00:00:52,530
Speaker 2: especially with the Gnostics. More than anything, they give us

20
00:00:52,590 --> 00:00:56,069
Speaker 2: a window into what early followers of Jesus were thinking about.

21
00:00:56,270 --> 00:00:59,480
Speaker 2: And that, I think, is interesting. Dr.

22
00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:03,100
Speaker 1: Greg Lanier, Bart Ehrman has popularized the idea that there

23
00:01:03,140 --> 00:01:07,620
Speaker 1: were many so-called gospels competing for inclusion in the New Testament.

24
00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,200
Speaker 1: We're going to get into the details and your book,

25
00:01:10,580 --> 00:01:12,669
Speaker 1: but I want you to react to this statement or

26
00:01:12,770 --> 00:01:15,289
Speaker 1: question that he asked and made. He said, where do

27
00:01:15,310 --> 00:01:17,350
Speaker 1: we get our New Testament gospels in the first place?

28
00:01:17,910 --> 00:01:20,130
Speaker 1: And how do we know that they, rather than the

29
00:01:20,250 --> 00:01:22,949
Speaker 1: dozens of Gospels that did not become part of the

30
00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:27,880
Speaker 1: New Testament, revealed the truth about what Jesus taught? What

31
00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,480
Speaker 1: if the candidate ended up containing the Gospels of Peter, Thomas, Mary,

32
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:35,220
Speaker 1: rather than Matthew, Mark, and Luke? What say you?

33
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,060
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting. I think it's a valid question.

34
00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:41,500
Speaker 2: He phrases it as a question, a what-if kind of scenario.

35
00:01:41,530 --> 00:01:43,310
Speaker 2: But there's a few problems with it. First off, it

36
00:01:43,370 --> 00:01:45,970
Speaker 2: implies that there's some sort of World Cup or beauty

37
00:01:46,010 --> 00:01:49,100
Speaker 2: pageant among all these different writings. bunch of bishops put

38
00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 2: them out on the table, and they had a competition

39
00:01:51,260 --> 00:01:53,220
Speaker 2: to see who would end up in the canon, which

40
00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,240
Speaker 2: is very much not how the canon developed, nor how

41
00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,800
Speaker 2: the early church fathers even discussed receiving and acknowledging the

42
00:01:59,820 --> 00:02:02,160
Speaker 2: canon as opposed to picking books and so forth. And

43
00:02:02,220 --> 00:02:06,220
Speaker 2: the way it's framed is a bit off from the

44
00:02:06,250 --> 00:02:08,730
Speaker 2: very beginning. Second, you would end up with a very

45
00:02:08,770 --> 00:02:11,390
Speaker 2: different Jesus if you had those three in particular. If

46
00:02:11,410 --> 00:02:15,060
Speaker 2: you have Thomas, which is just a mix-up collection of

47
00:02:15,060 --> 00:02:17,880
Speaker 2: 114 sayings of Jesus, some of which overlap with the gospel,

48
00:02:17,900 --> 00:02:20,540
Speaker 2: some of which don't. You have that, no interest in

49
00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,720
Speaker 2: the death of Jesus or a resurrection. You have the

50
00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,160
Speaker 2: gospel of Peter, which at least in what we have

51
00:02:26,220 --> 00:02:29,370
Speaker 2: in the surviving portions of it is just a trial, death,

52
00:02:29,410 --> 00:02:32,570
Speaker 2: and resurrection, but there's no saving significance. There's no fulfillment

53
00:02:32,590 --> 00:02:35,269
Speaker 2: of scripture and so forth. And then you have Mary,

54
00:02:35,330 --> 00:02:38,810
Speaker 2: which is a handful of revelations that Jesus gives to

55
00:02:38,850 --> 00:02:42,350
Speaker 2: Mary Magdalene after his resurrection. You don't have a complete

56
00:02:42,389 --> 00:02:46,570
Speaker 2: story at all. It's not even recognizable or coherent. You're

57
00:02:46,590 --> 00:02:49,250
Speaker 2: not going to have any real access to the historical

58
00:02:49,290 --> 00:02:52,010
Speaker 2: Jesus if you just have those three. So the way

59
00:02:52,060 --> 00:02:55,519
Speaker 2: the question is positioned, I think, is clickbaity. It's not

60
00:02:55,580 --> 00:02:57,640
Speaker 2: a wrong question. He is right to say, how do

61
00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,820
Speaker 2: we know these things? That's actually a really interesting question,

62
00:03:00,860 --> 00:03:03,380
Speaker 2: because how do you know anything about how to trust

63
00:03:03,419 --> 00:03:06,500
Speaker 2: Scripture and which books are from God or not? That

64
00:03:06,540 --> 00:03:10,190
Speaker 2: part's interesting. But this hypothetical scenario just has no historical

65
00:03:10,210 --> 00:03:13,850
Speaker 2: basis whatsoever as if there's an alternative universe where those

66
00:03:13,950 --> 00:03:16,280
Speaker 2: three could have won out. That's not how it happened

67
00:03:16,310 --> 00:03:19,460
Speaker 2: at all. So I think the way it's positioned is

68
00:03:19,500 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 2: more an attempt to generate interest. But I appreciate that

69
00:03:24,020 --> 00:03:25,480
Speaker 2: because I want people to be interested in these topics.

70
00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,380
Speaker 1: Well, for sure. And Bart Ehrman is as good as

71
00:03:27,660 --> 00:03:29,720
Speaker 1: anybody at doing that. But we want to show interest

72
00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:35,570
Speaker 1: in your book on the apocryphal gospels. Reddit, fascinating, well done,

73
00:03:35,650 --> 00:03:37,990
Speaker 1: will be one of the top books that I recommend

74
00:03:38,010 --> 00:03:40,090
Speaker 1: going forward in this realm, and I hope my viewers

75
00:03:40,150 --> 00:03:42,350
Speaker 1: and listeners pick it up. But you start your book

76
00:03:42,870 --> 00:03:45,570
Speaker 1: with this line. You said, what is– I'm sorry, I'm

77
00:03:45,590 --> 00:03:48,470
Speaker 1: afraid this is way. Why are you writing a book

78
00:03:48,810 --> 00:03:50,430
Speaker 1: on fake gospels?

79
00:03:50,750 --> 00:03:53,250
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, as I was introducing the book and as

80
00:03:53,270 --> 00:03:55,290
Speaker 2: I just kicked off the project, I was wondering– I've

81
00:03:55,310 --> 00:03:57,530
Speaker 2: done commentary on Luke. I've done a lot of different things.

82
00:03:58,050 --> 00:04:01,260
Speaker 2: So why am I doing a book on these gospels? hidden, secret,

83
00:04:01,460 --> 00:04:05,930
Speaker 2: dubious Gospels, especially as a Reformed theological seminary professor, as

84
00:04:05,990 --> 00:04:09,030
Speaker 2: a Presbyterian minister, and so forth, I just find them

85
00:04:09,050 --> 00:04:12,270
Speaker 2: really interesting, ultimately. I got interested probably 10 years ago

86
00:04:12,310 --> 00:04:14,950
Speaker 2: in some of my work on the Gospels and dug

87
00:04:15,090 --> 00:04:18,120
Speaker 2: into them, and I think there's a real need for

88
00:04:18,260 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 2: a sober-minded, really field guide for the average person. So

89
00:04:22,300 --> 00:04:24,760
Speaker 2: I wrote this for my mom. I want a book

90
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,510
Speaker 2: that the average congregant could read, benefit from, and end

91
00:04:29,570 --> 00:04:32,230
Speaker 2: up in a good place. Because there's really two sides

92
00:04:32,270 --> 00:04:34,300
Speaker 2: of a ditch when it comes to the apocryphal gospels.

93
00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,119
Speaker 2: On the one hand, you have the academy, which tend

94
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,660
Speaker 2: to be a little bit overly infatuated with these writings.

95
00:04:41,060 --> 00:04:42,900
Speaker 2: It's like, look at the gospel of Thomas. That's the

96
00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:45,140
Speaker 2: real Jesus. Or the gospel of Judas is the most

97
00:04:45,220 --> 00:04:47,839
Speaker 2: amazing discovery of all time. There's a lot of headline

98
00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:50,140
Speaker 2: sort of clickbaity stuff about these things. So what happens

99
00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:53,850
Speaker 2: on the academic side is people tend to almost overprivilege

100
00:04:54,550 --> 00:04:58,150
Speaker 2: Gospel of Thomas, Mary, Judas, Peter, et cetera. Then on

101
00:04:58,170 --> 00:05:01,100
Speaker 2: the other side you have your average churchgoer who grew

102
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,380
Speaker 2: up in the church, loves Jesus, and they hear about

103
00:05:04,420 --> 00:05:07,640
Speaker 2: these things usually around Easter and Christmas. The Jesus that

104
00:05:07,660 --> 00:05:10,839
Speaker 2: you've never heard of. And it's like your pastor's been

105
00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:13,220
Speaker 2: hiding the true Jesus from you, and you don't know.

106
00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:15,740
Speaker 2: You can imagine the all-caps titles on the YouTube videos

107
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,000
Speaker 2: or whatever. The Jesus you never knew. And so the

108
00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,490
Speaker 2: response that I often see in my pastoral work, but

109
00:05:21,529 --> 00:05:23,310
Speaker 2: you see it on campus ministry, you know, campuses and

110
00:05:23,330 --> 00:05:25,099
Speaker 2: that kind of thing, is to almost put your head

111
00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,039
Speaker 2: in the sand and hope these could just go away.

112
00:05:27,140 --> 00:05:29,360
Speaker 2: Like there's a sense of fear. Like those are bad.

113
00:05:29,820 --> 00:05:32,460
Speaker 2: They're apocryphal, which is a bad word. I want to

114
00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:33,980
Speaker 2: stay away from them. In fact, someone told me, I

115
00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,510
Speaker 2: taught a Sunday school series on this, and someone raised

116
00:05:36,529 --> 00:05:38,110
Speaker 2: their hand at some point and said, why don't we

117
00:05:38,150 --> 00:05:39,950
Speaker 2: just leave them hidden? Like why are we wasting time

118
00:05:39,990 --> 00:05:43,210
Speaker 2: talking about them? And I was like, that's actually precisely

119
00:05:43,270 --> 00:05:45,010
Speaker 2: why I wanted to do this, because I don't think

120
00:05:45,029 --> 00:05:47,250
Speaker 2: that's the right answer either. Certainly the early church didn't

121
00:05:47,630 --> 00:05:48,960
Speaker 2: run away from them. So I was like, there's got

122
00:05:48,980 --> 00:05:51,440
Speaker 2: to be a different option here. You don't have to

123
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:53,360
Speaker 2: be fanboys of them. You also don't have to ignore

124
00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:55,750
Speaker 2: them or malign them. There's a way to approach them

125
00:05:56,650 --> 00:06:01,490
Speaker 2: that appreciates them in terms of their role in early Christianity,

126
00:06:01,529 --> 00:06:05,550
Speaker 2: but also ultimately lands on the idea that the four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke,

127
00:06:05,570 --> 00:06:07,490
Speaker 2: and John, are the Gospels. And so that's why I

128
00:06:07,550 --> 00:06:11,070
Speaker 2: titled it, these are the fan fiction versions of Jesus,

129
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,420
Speaker 2: which fan fiction is interesting. And it tells us some

130
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,400
Speaker 2: things about that period of time.

131
00:06:16,460 --> 00:06:19,860
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Sober Minded is a great description of your book.

132
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:25,250
Speaker 1: I'm an apologist. You know that. We're here at Ligonier Ministries, obviously. R.C. Sproul,

133
00:06:25,290 --> 00:06:28,070
Speaker 1: an apologist. He and my dad went back years. And

134
00:06:28,089 --> 00:06:32,000
Speaker 1: there's an apologetic kind of– there's a theme in this book,

135
00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,660
Speaker 1: but it's not just apologetic. It's like let's look at

136
00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:38,040
Speaker 1: these other gospels and let's just ask straight up what

137
00:06:38,060 --> 00:06:40,080
Speaker 1: can we learn from them. How do they compare and

138
00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,830
Speaker 1: contrast with the four gospels? Is there anything true in them?

139
00:06:43,890 --> 00:06:46,770
Speaker 1: Do they threaten their Christian faith and its balance, which

140
00:06:46,830 --> 00:06:49,430
Speaker 1: I appreciate? So maybe it'd be helpful if we just

141
00:06:49,450 --> 00:06:52,710
Speaker 1: start with a definition of what's meant by apocryphal gospels

142
00:06:53,270 --> 00:06:56,210
Speaker 1: and why it's different from the apocrypha.

143
00:06:56,230 --> 00:06:58,289
Speaker 2: Yeah, very important distinction. Yeah. And in fact, I mean,

144
00:06:58,310 --> 00:07:00,650
Speaker 2: there's two words in the title, right? Apocryphal and gospels,

145
00:07:00,710 --> 00:07:02,289
Speaker 2: and both are hard to define, actually.

146
00:07:02,310 --> 00:07:02,530
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

147
00:07:03,070 --> 00:07:08,010
Speaker 2: Apocryphal, especially because of the association with the Old Testament Apocrypha,

148
00:07:08,010 --> 00:07:12,450
Speaker 2: 1 Maccabees, 2 Maccabees, Tobit, Wismuth, Ben-Seir, and so forth.

149
00:07:13,030 --> 00:07:15,300
Speaker 2: I think a lot of Protestants are skittish about those

150
00:07:15,310 --> 00:07:17,620
Speaker 2: because that's part of the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Deuterocan

151
00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,940
Speaker 2: and so forth. So that language of Apocrypha often means negative.

152
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,820
Speaker 2: It's a value judgment. It's dubious, spurious, that kind of thing.

153
00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:29,860
Speaker 2: And certainly that does become true in the later parts

154
00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:31,870
Speaker 2: of the early church. But what's interesting is that the

155
00:07:31,890 --> 00:07:34,570
Speaker 2: people who wrote a lot of these works in question

156
00:07:34,590 --> 00:07:37,050
Speaker 2: that we're going to talk about used the title almost

157
00:07:37,190 --> 00:07:38,730
Speaker 2: as a badge of honor. It's like, no, these are

158
00:07:38,750 --> 00:07:41,470
Speaker 2: the hidden, because apocrypha just means hidden. These are the

159
00:07:41,570 --> 00:07:44,490
Speaker 2: hidden sayings of Jesus. This is the hidden revelation. It

160
00:07:44,530 --> 00:07:48,190
Speaker 2: was almost like, hey, we have this special insider knowledge

161
00:07:48,930 --> 00:07:51,890
Speaker 2: that the mainstream gospels don't have. And so it was

162
00:07:51,930 --> 00:07:55,030
Speaker 2: almost a positive term from their perspective. It later became

163
00:07:55,110 --> 00:07:59,420
Speaker 2: a dubious term. What we're talking about are these non-canonical

164
00:08:00,770 --> 00:08:05,860
Speaker 2: sayings or broader compositions. And then gospel is an important

165
00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:09,060
Speaker 2: qualifier because we also have apocryphal acts, so like the

166
00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:11,060
Speaker 2: Acts of Paul and Thecla and so forth. So I'm

167
00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:15,420
Speaker 2: not going to talk about those. A gospel is notoriously

168
00:08:15,460 --> 00:08:18,500
Speaker 2: difficult to define, even in the broader sense of what

169
00:08:18,670 --> 00:08:20,650
Speaker 2: are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John? Like, what's their genre?

170
00:08:20,670 --> 00:08:24,250
Speaker 2: That's actually a really important question. But the lowest common

171
00:08:24,290 --> 00:08:26,590
Speaker 2: denominator is we're talking about books that are about the

172
00:08:26,650 --> 00:08:30,640
Speaker 2: teachings and deeds of Jesus. That's it. both in his

173
00:08:30,740 --> 00:08:33,679
Speaker 2: earthly life and to a certain degree his sort of

174
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,080
Speaker 2: post-resurrection prior to his ascension. We're talking about that kind

175
00:08:37,100 --> 00:08:40,800
Speaker 2: of timeframe. So anything that purports to tell that story,

176
00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:44,140
Speaker 2: you could call loosely a gospel. A lot of scholars

177
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,600
Speaker 2: now refer to them as Jesus books as a more

178
00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:48,460
Speaker 2: neutral term. So I'm fine with that. I don't have

179
00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,360
Speaker 2: a problem with that. That's interesting. So what we're talking

180
00:08:50,380 --> 00:08:54,280
Speaker 2: about are books about Jesus. They may not be full books.

181
00:08:55,020 --> 00:09:00,740
Speaker 2: that were not part of the mainstream reception of Matthew, Mark, Luke,

182
00:09:00,780 --> 00:09:03,059
Speaker 2: and John. And so I think you can use apocryphal

183
00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:05,480
Speaker 2: in that sense, not so much as a value judgment,

184
00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,730
Speaker 2: but more as like these were really a separate category.

185
00:09:08,750 --> 00:09:13,710
Speaker 2: They even positioned themselves as a separate category from what

186
00:09:13,730 --> 00:09:15,850
Speaker 2: we might call the public gospels. So these are the

187
00:09:15,970 --> 00:09:19,710
Speaker 2: private or secret gospels. That implies, and in fact actually

188
00:09:20,010 --> 00:09:23,510
Speaker 2: is an argument for, the supremacy of a public set

189
00:09:23,590 --> 00:09:24,199
Speaker 2: of gospels.

190
00:09:24,270 --> 00:09:25,300
Speaker 1: By the way, when we get to the end, I'm

191
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,179
Speaker 1: getting ahead of myself. You have kind of a critique

192
00:09:28,300 --> 00:09:31,660
Speaker 1: of at least the historical reliability of these gospels in

193
00:09:31,860 --> 00:09:35,520
Speaker 1: terms of who Jesus really was, not what second century

194
00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:38,330
Speaker 1: Christians thought. And you make the point that the idea

195
00:09:38,380 --> 00:09:40,410
Speaker 1: that these gospels start showing up in second, third, and

196
00:09:40,450 --> 00:09:45,690
Speaker 1: fourth century with hidden information assumes that there's already publicly

197
00:09:45,790 --> 00:09:50,689
Speaker 1: known information about Jesus and is somewhat parasitic upon that.

198
00:09:51,090 --> 00:09:54,559
Speaker 1: So it's an argument for the Gospels themselves. Getting ahead

199
00:09:54,580 --> 00:09:57,460
Speaker 1: of myself, giving people a sense of where your book goes,

200
00:09:57,500 --> 00:09:59,250
Speaker 1: I think is very helpful. And you make some arguments

201
00:09:59,290 --> 00:10:01,460
Speaker 1: that I haven't heard. and I've been studying this for

202
00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:05,199
Speaker 1: a while. Apocryphal is a very helpful distinction. I did

203
00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,740
Speaker 1: my dissertation work on the death of the apostles. So

204
00:10:08,780 --> 00:10:12,180
Speaker 1: not the apocryphal gospels, they offered very little to that,

205
00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,900
Speaker 1: but the apocryphal acts of, say, Peter.

206
00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:15,120
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

207
00:10:15,470 --> 00:10:19,720
Speaker 1: And Paul and John and Andrew and Thomas were enormously helpful.

208
00:10:20,300 --> 00:10:22,840
Speaker 1: But again, that's not– And very popular. And very popular.

209
00:10:23,260 --> 00:10:27,220
Speaker 1: And we'll see some of the overlap here. But let's

210
00:10:27,380 --> 00:10:29,240
Speaker 1: frame this the way it often is in the public

211
00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:31,560
Speaker 1: and in apologetic circles, that we often hear that these

212
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,610
Speaker 1: apocryphal gospels undermine Christianity. And some of the ones at

213
00:10:36,650 --> 00:10:38,230
Speaker 1: least that I've heard and you talk about in your

214
00:10:38,250 --> 00:10:40,770
Speaker 1: book are like the Gospel of Thomas, the most well-known one,

215
00:10:41,309 --> 00:10:43,589
Speaker 1: Gospel of Judas. I remember when that was released in

216
00:10:43,610 --> 00:10:46,530
Speaker 1: the early 2000s at least publicly. So maybe tell us

217
00:10:46,550 --> 00:10:48,969
Speaker 1: a little bit more. What are these writings, and is

218
00:10:49,010 --> 00:10:51,950
Speaker 1: there any reason to believe that they threaten what you

219
00:10:51,970 --> 00:10:54,890
Speaker 1: and I would believe about the historical Jesus and about

220
00:10:54,929 --> 00:10:56,200
Speaker 1: the New Testament canon?

221
00:10:56,910 --> 00:10:59,550
Speaker 2: Yes, that's a big question. So why don't we– maybe

222
00:10:59,580 --> 00:11:01,740
Speaker 2: it might be just as helpful to describe what we're

223
00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:03,140
Speaker 2: talking about. It was like.

224
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,280
Speaker 1: Three questions in one, so I somewhat apologize.

225
00:11:05,340 --> 00:11:08,300
Speaker 2: No, it's fine. So let's talk about the categories, and

226
00:11:08,340 --> 00:11:10,870
Speaker 2: then we can go from there because I think it's

227
00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,569
Speaker 2: important to distinguish the different types of literature we're talking

228
00:11:13,590 --> 00:11:16,709
Speaker 2: about because they're not all the same. And actually what's

229
00:11:16,750 --> 00:11:19,550
Speaker 2: interesting to me is you can actually start this whole

230
00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:24,300
Speaker 2: conversation within the canon itself. at the lowest level. So

231
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,340
Speaker 2: if you think Gospel of Thomas or something like that

232
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,500
Speaker 2: as the most mature form, it's like a complete composition

233
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:31,950
Speaker 2: and so forth. That's not the end state. You can

234
00:11:31,970 --> 00:11:34,250
Speaker 2: actually go more granular than that. And you can actually

235
00:11:34,330 --> 00:11:38,230
Speaker 2: start with apocryphal sayings of Jesus. So like, he allegedly

236
00:11:38,309 --> 00:11:41,109
Speaker 2: said this. And there's actually a fair number of these.

237
00:11:41,610 --> 00:11:43,050
Speaker 2: And one of them is actually in the book of Acts.

238
00:11:43,730 --> 00:11:47,010
Speaker 2: So Acts 20, verse 35, Paul goes to great lengths

239
00:11:47,030 --> 00:11:50,400
Speaker 2: to say, you should remember what Jesus himself said when

240
00:11:50,460 --> 00:11:53,630
Speaker 2: he said... It is better to give than to receive.

241
00:11:53,870 --> 00:11:58,429
Speaker 2: Very famous Christmas passage for the kids these days. And

242
00:11:58,450 --> 00:12:00,010
Speaker 2: what's interesting about that is that it's not in the

243
00:12:00,050 --> 00:12:04,949
Speaker 2: four Gospels. You have a very vague conceptual parallel in Matthew,

244
00:12:05,030 --> 00:12:06,590
Speaker 2: but you don't have it in Luke, which is interesting

245
00:12:06,610 --> 00:12:08,170
Speaker 2: because Luke wrote Acts as well. He didn't feel the

246
00:12:08,220 --> 00:12:10,880
Speaker 2: need to retcon that back in. And so it's a

247
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,780
Speaker 2: floating saying of Jesus. Shows up in some of the

248
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,980
Speaker 2: church fathers as well. And so that is something that

249
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,980
Speaker 2: you could call almost an apocryphal yet canonical, which sounds

250
00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:23,400
Speaker 2: like a contradiction and it kind of is yeah i

251
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,480
Speaker 2: see what you mean but it's a a non in

252
00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:28,380
Speaker 2: the four gospels yet authentic saying of jesus and so

253
00:12:28,460 --> 00:12:32,060
Speaker 2: that exists and if luke says many have undertaken to

254
00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:34,640
Speaker 2: write an account of jesus and if john says in

255
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,520
Speaker 2: 20 and 21 jesus a lot of other stuff not

256
00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,320
Speaker 2: all of which are recorded in this book that implies

257
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:42,699
Speaker 2: that some of these kinds of things quote unquote got

258
00:12:42,740 --> 00:12:44,579
Speaker 2: away that jesus said a lot of things to a

259
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,620
Speaker 2: lot of people not everything is recorded in matthew mark

260
00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,430
Speaker 2: and luke and john And so that's kind of the baselines,

261
00:12:49,470 --> 00:12:54,530
Speaker 2: like some sort of information about Jesus circulated not simply

262
00:12:54,550 --> 00:12:57,670
Speaker 2: within the confines of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. That's fine.

263
00:12:57,690 --> 00:13:00,130
Speaker 1: Okay, so before we go further, let me— So.

264
00:13:00,170 --> 00:13:04,580
Speaker 2: Sayings is the baseline category. There's probably, like in the

265
00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:07,600
Speaker 2: New Testament in terms of like textual variants, you have

266
00:13:07,660 --> 00:13:12,580
Speaker 2: maybe a dozen that are attributed to Jesus but don't

267
00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:16,170
Speaker 2: find a secure foothold in the sort of— kind of

268
00:13:16,210 --> 00:13:18,350
Speaker 2: established text of the Gospels. And then you have six

269
00:13:18,390 --> 00:13:20,390
Speaker 2: or seven that the church fathers talk about a lot.

270
00:13:21,270 --> 00:13:23,290
Speaker 2: You know, be good money changers. That one says it

271
00:13:23,370 --> 00:13:25,470
Speaker 2: like all the church fathers keep citing that one. It's

272
00:13:25,490 --> 00:13:27,860
Speaker 2: not in the Gospels. They're like, yeah, Jesus definitely said that.

273
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,420
Speaker 2: Or be a prude money changer. So you probably have

274
00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:33,679
Speaker 2: not quite two dozen of these sayings that just sort

275
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:37,380
Speaker 2: of floated. maybe Jesus said them, maybe he didn't, we

276
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,590
Speaker 2: don't know for sure, but they kind of seem plausible

277
00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:41,770
Speaker 2: and they just didn't find a foothold in Matthew, Mark, Luke,

278
00:13:41,790 --> 00:13:42,090
Speaker 2: or John.

279
00:13:42,170 --> 00:13:44,710
Speaker 1: Okay, so what's super helpful about this is the idea

280
00:13:44,770 --> 00:13:47,950
Speaker 1: of information about Jesus that's outside of the Gospels isn't

281
00:13:48,050 --> 00:13:51,410
Speaker 1: necessarily threatening. Christians shouldn't be defensive of this.

282
00:13:51,429 --> 00:13:53,449
Speaker 2: I mean, it's in the Bible. Acts 20, 35 is

283
00:13:53,710 --> 00:13:54,430
Speaker 2: one of them.

284
00:13:54,450 --> 00:13:56,860
Speaker 1: That's a great example of this that's outside the Gospels.

285
00:13:57,050 --> 00:13:59,420
Speaker 1: And then you said the intro to Luke and John

286
00:13:59,420 --> 00:14:02,780
Speaker 1: 20 and 21 that Jesus did many other teachings, many

287
00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,510
Speaker 1: other sayings. Mm-hmm. And then the apostles know some of

288
00:14:05,550 --> 00:14:09,820
Speaker 1: the church fathers personally and pass the baton on. It's

289
00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,420
Speaker 1: very possible that we have teachings and sayings of Jesus

290
00:14:13,580 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 1: outside the gospel. Historically speaking, we shouldn't write that off.

291
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:18,679
Speaker 1: That's the first part.

292
00:14:18,740 --> 00:14:22,280
Speaker 2: Another good example, Romans 12, 13, and 14 very famously

293
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,160
Speaker 2: is drawing on the Sermon on the Mount. Everyone knows

294
00:14:25,340 --> 00:14:27,280
Speaker 2: there's little bits and pieces of it that are clearly

295
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,780
Speaker 2: indebted to the Sermon on the Mount even though Matthew

296
00:14:29,820 --> 00:14:32,200
Speaker 2: hadn't been written yet most likely depending on dating assumptions

297
00:14:32,660 --> 00:14:34,190
Speaker 2: when Romans was written. So Paul had to get this

298
00:14:34,210 --> 00:14:37,410
Speaker 2: stuff somewhere. And so he's embedding teachings of Jesus in

299
00:14:37,450 --> 00:14:39,330
Speaker 2: his letter. And so it's possible that some of the

300
00:14:39,370 --> 00:14:41,770
Speaker 2: other things he says in Romans 12, 13, or 14,

301
00:14:41,750 --> 00:14:44,140
Speaker 2: in that particular section in particular, could have come from

302
00:14:44,180 --> 00:14:46,520
Speaker 2: Jesus too. We just don't know because they didn't find

303
00:14:46,540 --> 00:14:48,880
Speaker 2: their way, so to speak. They weren't recorded by one

304
00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 2: of the evangelists. So it's just an interesting kind of

305
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,100
Speaker 2: thought experiment. So you start at that level. Next level

306
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,140
Speaker 2: up are a handful of fragments. And so we have

307
00:14:57,660 --> 00:15:01,520
Speaker 2: a good number of papyrus fragments here. mostly from Egypt,

308
00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:06,750
Speaker 2: so Oxyrhynchus in particular, a few other places, that have

309
00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:10,730
Speaker 2: little vignettes of Jesus. He healed this leper, or he

310
00:15:10,790 --> 00:15:14,130
Speaker 2: had some sort of dispute with a Pharisee over this

311
00:15:14,170 --> 00:15:17,550
Speaker 2: or that issue, and they vaguely sound like something that

312
00:15:17,580 --> 00:15:19,860
Speaker 2: you would find in Matthew or Luke, but they're not directly.

313
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,020
Speaker 2: They're clearly not the same. They're not like a copy

314
00:15:23,060 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 2: of it. And so there's a handful of those that

315
00:15:25,300 --> 00:15:27,560
Speaker 2: are pretty famous. Probably the most important one is something

316
00:15:27,580 --> 00:15:30,800
Speaker 2: known as the Edgerton Gospel. which has five or six

317
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,090
Speaker 2: stories of Jesus, none of which are actually objectionable. They

318
00:15:33,110 --> 00:15:37,810
Speaker 2: all sound like they could have happened. He's fighting with

319
00:15:37,850 --> 00:15:41,310
Speaker 2: religious authorities over here. He's sowing seeds somewhere else. It

320
00:15:41,330 --> 00:15:44,530
Speaker 2: all sounds fairly mundane. And then a few others. And

321
00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:47,250
Speaker 2: so you have these little scrapbook pages, like a little

322
00:15:47,310 --> 00:15:49,190
Speaker 2: vignette from the life of Jesus. It could have been

323
00:15:49,210 --> 00:15:50,670
Speaker 2: a longer work. We don't know. All we have is

324
00:15:50,690 --> 00:15:53,340
Speaker 2: like a little piece of it. Then you move up

325
00:15:53,380 --> 00:15:53,940
Speaker 2: from there.

326
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,790
Speaker 1: And these are probably dated minimally to the 2nd and

327
00:15:57,110 --> 00:16:00,330
Speaker 1: 3rd century when they're written. And we have some physical

328
00:16:00,390 --> 00:16:01,570
Speaker 1: papyri for maybe the.

329
00:16:01,530 --> 00:16:04,130
Speaker 2: 2nd and 3rd century. And so the earliest one is

330
00:16:04,250 --> 00:16:08,250
Speaker 2: probably the Edgerton papyrus, P. Edgerton II. Some have even

331
00:16:08,290 --> 00:16:11,020
Speaker 2: dated that one to the 1st century, although the trend

332
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,380
Speaker 2: lately is to push it more towards the end of

333
00:16:13,420 --> 00:16:19,560
Speaker 2: the 2nd century. P. Oxy 1224. Pioxie 840, 4009, there's

334
00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,700
Speaker 2: a handful of them that are pretty reliably dated to

335
00:16:22,740 --> 00:16:25,940
Speaker 2: the second century, which most of them are not the

336
00:16:26,060 --> 00:16:29,620
Speaker 2: original copy, actually. Most of them are a secondary copy.

337
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 2: You can tell because they have Scrabble corrections or what

338
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:36,210
Speaker 2: have you. And so the actual original writing could have

339
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:40,290
Speaker 2: been considerably earlier, which I don't lose any sleep over that.

340
00:16:40,310 --> 00:16:45,210
Speaker 2: There's nothing magical about 100 A.D. that makes something canonical.

341
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:48,460
Speaker 2: I'm happy that the Christians were writing stuff down. That

342
00:16:48,650 --> 00:16:50,740
Speaker 2: doesn't bother me at all. Why wouldn't they? Matthew was

343
00:16:50,790 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 2: a scribe. He was a tax collector. Of course they're

344
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:55,280
Speaker 2: going to write. That was a sweet saying of Jesus.

345
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 1: Makes sense.

346
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,700
Speaker 2: Maybe it makes it into Matthew later when he decides

347
00:16:57,740 --> 00:17:00,820
Speaker 2: to consolidate everything. Maybe not. And then you start to

348
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,879
Speaker 2: move to more complete stories. And so you have the

349
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:10,159
Speaker 2: Gospel of Peter, which in the existing version, we just have–

350
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,119
Speaker 2: it starts sort of in medias res and sort of

351
00:17:12,180 --> 00:17:18,060
Speaker 2: just ends in one main manuscript. It only has the trial, death,

352
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,680
Speaker 2: and resurrection. Very famously, that's the one where Jesus comes

353
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,679
Speaker 2: out of the tomb, and there's a cross behind him,

354
00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:24,540
Speaker 2: and he's like as tall as heaven. That speaks. And

355
00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,000
Speaker 2: the cross speaks. Otherwise, apart from that, it's a fairly

356
00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,659
Speaker 2: mundane story. It kind of rebrands who's at fault for Jesus' crucifixion,

357
00:17:34,820 --> 00:17:38,600
Speaker 2: shifts it away from the Gentiles towards the Jews. That

358
00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:43,530
Speaker 2: one's probably the most sane, if you will. Gospel of Mary,

359
00:17:43,550 --> 00:17:45,790
Speaker 2: like I mentioned, is just a bunch of revelations of Jesus.

360
00:17:45,830 --> 00:17:48,359
Speaker 2: And they get kind of big mad because he apparently

361
00:17:48,410 --> 00:17:52,159
Speaker 2: gave these revelations to Mary Magdalene, presumably. And some of

362
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,060
Speaker 2: the other apostles are kind of mad that he didn't

363
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:56,739
Speaker 2: share that stuff with them. But it's all this kind

364
00:17:56,780 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 2: of weird, loosely Gnosticizing type stuff. Gospel of Thomas has

365
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,480
Speaker 2: no plot. But that's the one that even your aunt knows.

366
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 2: If anyone's heard of any of these, Gospel of Thomas

367
00:18:05,540 --> 00:18:07,700
Speaker 2: is the most famous. It was popularized in the 80s

368
00:18:07,740 --> 00:18:11,060
Speaker 2: with the Jesus Seminar and so forth. 114 Sayings of Jesus,

369
00:18:11,740 --> 00:18:14,600
Speaker 2: chiefly in the Coptic form, which I have right here,

370
00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,820
Speaker 2: by the way. And this is a gift from my

371
00:18:16,859 --> 00:18:18,700
Speaker 2: friend Noah Hawkins. For me? Yeah, this is for you.

372
00:18:19,260 --> 00:18:22,620
Speaker 2: This is the first page of the Coptic form. Wow. Well,

373
00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:24,780
Speaker 2: it's not the original one. We didn't steal it from Egypt.

374
00:18:24,820 --> 00:18:25,460
Speaker 1: I figured that.

375
00:18:25,940 --> 00:18:28,700
Speaker 2: This is a replica from Sacred Tech Replicas. But anyway,

376
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:30,270
Speaker 2: they want you to have that. That's incredible.

377
00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:33,230
Speaker 1: Well, thank you. Shout out. That is super, super cool

378
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:33,830
Speaker 1: and meaningful.

379
00:18:33,890 --> 00:18:36,930
Speaker 2: Yeah. And so the main form is Coptic. It has

380
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:39,960
Speaker 2: some Greek forms as well. And that's just, Like 60

381
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,119
Speaker 2: or some odd of them are overlapping with the Gospels.

382
00:18:43,260 --> 00:18:47,060
Speaker 2: The rest of it are either stuff that Jesus said

383
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,530
Speaker 2: that it's like, I mean, it's not that weird. And

384
00:18:50,550 --> 00:18:53,150
Speaker 2: then some of them are just demonstrably odd and strange.

385
00:18:54,270 --> 00:18:57,949
Speaker 2: Then you have Gospel of Judas, which is the Disney

386
00:18:58,230 --> 00:19:02,300
Speaker 2: villain rebranding. It's the Cruella Maleficent version of the story

387
00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,699
Speaker 2: of Judas, where he's kind of rebranded as more the

388
00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,580
Speaker 2: hero of the story, although that's debated today. The only

389
00:19:07,619 --> 00:19:10,020
Speaker 2: reason why he's kind of heroic in this particular gospel

390
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:13,790
Speaker 2: is he facilitates the death of Jesus, which in this

391
00:19:13,850 --> 00:19:16,110
Speaker 2: gospel is a good thing because he wants to escape

392
00:19:16,210 --> 00:19:20,170
Speaker 2: from the material trappings of his body, because body, bad, spirit, realm, good.

393
00:19:20,210 --> 00:19:23,630
Speaker 2: It's kind of loosely Gnostic in that way. And there's

394
00:19:23,650 --> 00:19:25,899
Speaker 2: a handful of others that we'll get into. The Infancy

395
00:19:25,940 --> 00:19:27,659
Speaker 2: Gospel of Thomas, which is probably my favorite.

396
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to circle back to that.

397
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:31,740
Speaker 2: And the Protevangelium of James, also known as the Infancy

398
00:19:31,780 --> 00:19:34,340
Speaker 2: of Mary. So there's a handful of these more mature stories.

399
00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,190
Speaker 2: So you kind of go from Loose sayings to vignettes

400
00:19:38,260 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 2: to full compositions. What's interesting about all of them is

401
00:19:41,580 --> 00:19:44,379
Speaker 2: that there's no coherent genre, which I think is a

402
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:47,369
Speaker 2: big mark against any claim to authenticity. They're just a

403
00:19:48,430 --> 00:19:52,280
Speaker 2: mashup of different literatures. forms. There's no coherent story, which

404
00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,100
Speaker 2: is something we can come back to. They are, in

405
00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:58,760
Speaker 2: my opinion, and that of many scholars, just intrinsically different

406
00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 2: than Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, which share the same

407
00:20:01,140 --> 00:20:05,420
Speaker 2: narrative flow. Even John does, by the way. It presupposes

408
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:10,470
Speaker 2: the same narrative flow. The same 1 Corinthians 15 sort

409
00:20:10,630 --> 00:20:13,050
Speaker 2: of litmus test of the faith, which we can also

410
00:20:13,090 --> 00:20:16,530
Speaker 2: come back to. So there are some intrinsic differentiators as well.

411
00:20:16,550 --> 00:20:18,469
Speaker 2: But that's the kind of cast of characters that we're

412
00:20:18,490 --> 00:20:19,470
Speaker 2: talking about. That's helpful.

413
00:20:19,540 --> 00:20:22,100
Speaker 1: So it starts with these sayings, and then we have

414
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,220
Speaker 1: these fragments, and then we have these what are sometimes

415
00:20:24,260 --> 00:20:25,800
Speaker 1: called Gnostic Gospels.

416
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:27,420
Speaker 2: And that's actually even farther down, yeah.

417
00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:31,920
Speaker 1: Apocryphal Gospels. Now we're moving to 3rd, 4th, 5th century, etc.

418
00:20:32,619 --> 00:20:36,020
Speaker 2: And the Gnostic Gospels, which the only one in this

419
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,100
Speaker 2: group that I cover in the book in detail that

420
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 2: would kind of fit that bill would be Judas. Gospel

421
00:20:41,220 --> 00:20:42,940
Speaker 2: of Thomas, in my opinion, is not Gnostic in the

422
00:20:42,980 --> 00:20:46,090
Speaker 2: full sense. But once you get to the Nag Hammadi codices,

423
00:20:46,910 --> 00:20:48,630
Speaker 2: and you have the Apocryphon of John and all these

424
00:20:48,650 --> 00:20:53,490
Speaker 2: different things, you're on a different planet at that point, actually,

425
00:20:53,550 --> 00:20:56,170
Speaker 2: almost literally, in terms of how they view the cosmos.

426
00:20:56,230 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 2: And so I don't even pay a lot. Honestly, I

427
00:20:58,580 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 2: don't find the Gnostic Gospels that interesting. They're much later.

428
00:21:02,350 --> 00:21:05,090
Speaker 2: They're not even really interested in Jesus. I wouldn't even

429
00:21:05,109 --> 00:21:07,409
Speaker 2: really call most of them gospels. They're not about the

430
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:12,780
Speaker 2: life of Jesus. They're just pretty off-the-wall statements about mostly

431
00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:15,260
Speaker 2: strange things, about how the universe came to be and

432
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff.

433
00:21:16,020 --> 00:21:18,300
Speaker 1: So it's important for people to realize the dating of

434
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 1: these is very different, minimally second century and beyond. The

435
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,389
Speaker 1: genre of these is very different. We call them apocryphal gospels.

436
00:21:26,780 --> 00:21:29,780
Speaker 1: But they don't have the bios kind of biography of

437
00:21:29,820 --> 00:21:34,700
Speaker 1: an ancient biographical story. Thomas is 114 sayings.

438
00:21:34,780 --> 00:21:39,550
Speaker 2: All disconnected. There's no clear theme. It's just almost thrown together,

439
00:21:39,570 --> 00:21:40,070
Speaker 2: it seems like.

440
00:21:40,420 --> 00:21:42,649
Speaker 1: Do you trust some of the sources that are online

441
00:21:42,690 --> 00:21:44,250
Speaker 1: if people are going to read them? Because they're not

442
00:21:44,290 --> 00:21:46,109
Speaker 1: that long just to get a feel for it. Do

443
00:21:46,130 --> 00:21:48,790
Speaker 1: you trust or have any preferences of where people could find? Like,

444
00:21:48,810 --> 00:21:50,030
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just going to read the Gospel of

445
00:21:50,050 --> 00:21:52,750
Speaker 1: Judas for 10 or 15 minutes. Yeah.

446
00:21:53,910 --> 00:21:56,990
Speaker 2: I would probably– I mean, ironically, I think the best–

447
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,180
Speaker 2: One stop shop for them that has both the original

448
00:22:00,220 --> 00:22:03,940
Speaker 2: languages but a pretty decent translation would actually be Ehrman

449
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,409
Speaker 2: plus Plessé' s book just called Apocryphal Gospels. And it's the

450
00:22:08,430 --> 00:22:12,129
Speaker 2: primary text plus the translations. He's much more middle of

451
00:22:12,150 --> 00:22:14,330
Speaker 2: the road when it comes to that. He's like– most

452
00:22:14,350 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: of the intros are pretty helpful. And then the translations

453
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,120
Speaker 2: I think are largely unobjectional. So I use that a lot.

454
00:22:19,890 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 2: if I had to pick one to go by. Some

455
00:22:22,060 --> 00:22:24,190
Speaker 2: of the online sources, I mean, it's hit or miss.

456
00:22:24,410 --> 00:22:25,980
Speaker 2: Some of them are helpful. Some of them are not great.

457
00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 2: It kind of depends.

458
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: You have a lot of sections in your book to

459
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:30,500
Speaker 1: give people a feel.

460
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 2: Yes, I try to give a flavor.

461
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you definitely give a strong feel of it. How

462
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,379
Speaker 1: much historicity is in these Gospels? And I ask, I'll

463
00:22:38,420 --> 00:22:42,340
Speaker 1: frame it this way. The story of the guard is

464
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:47,530
Speaker 1: only in Matthew. And sometimes I've said, look, There's a

465
00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:51,179
Speaker 1: second potential reference in the Gospel of Peter which seems

466
00:22:51,260 --> 00:22:54,899
Speaker 1: to be independent of Matthew. But of course, Gospel of

467
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 1: Peter is end of the second century, full of fictional

468
00:22:58,740 --> 00:23:01,859
Speaker 1: stuff that we don't really trust anyway. So if anything,

469
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:06,939
Speaker 1: it adds very minimal historical just support to it in

470
00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:10,060
Speaker 1: my case, in my sense. But how much historicity would

471
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,780
Speaker 1: you give to these kinds of gospels that we've been

472
00:23:12,820 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 1: talking about, if any at all? Yeah.

473
00:23:15,410 --> 00:23:19,590
Speaker 2: Well, at first, in my opinion, singular attestation is not

474
00:23:19,630 --> 00:23:22,070
Speaker 2: a problem. So the fact that it's only in Matthew,

475
00:23:22,109 --> 00:23:25,290
Speaker 2: that's fine. I mean there's no reason why you have

476
00:23:25,330 --> 00:23:30,350
Speaker 2: to assume multiple attestation is the litmus test for historicity.

477
00:23:30,390 --> 00:23:32,350
Speaker 1: But it strengthens it, you would agree, right? If you

478
00:23:32,369 --> 00:23:34,780
Speaker 1: have more sources, it does strengthen it even though.

479
00:23:34,690 --> 00:23:37,980
Speaker 2: It's not required. Possibly. It's not required but possibly. I

480
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:44,820
Speaker 2: think the– the question of are these stories and sayings

481
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,909
Speaker 2: in these writings attributed to Jesus, are they authentic? Like,

482
00:23:47,930 --> 00:23:50,790
Speaker 2: do they have any historical bedrock? It's a bit case

483
00:23:50,810 --> 00:23:53,970
Speaker 2: by case, but I think in general, if there's anything

484
00:23:54,109 --> 00:23:58,430
Speaker 2: in these writings that could have some sort of claim

485
00:23:58,450 --> 00:24:00,860
Speaker 2: to authenticity, it's a very small amount. And I think

486
00:24:01,020 --> 00:24:04,400
Speaker 2: almost every scholar would agree with that, unless they really

487
00:24:04,420 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: want to kind of push that lever as far forward

488
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:11,699
Speaker 2: as they can in terms of, um, privileging these writings. Um,

489
00:24:11,980 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 2: the hard thing is you just don't know how, how

490
00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:15,910
Speaker 2: would you prove any of this? That's the hard part

491
00:24:16,850 --> 00:24:20,150
Speaker 2: is let's say you have a story about a healing, uh,

492
00:24:20,250 --> 00:24:22,430
Speaker 2: or just a religious controversy, you know, a controversy over

493
00:24:22,650 --> 00:24:27,610
Speaker 2: sort of kosher stuff or whatever. And Edgerton or Poxy 840, um,

494
00:24:29,109 --> 00:24:32,730
Speaker 2: there's nothing unorthodox about what some of those stories they,

495
00:24:32,780 --> 00:24:35,180
Speaker 2: they read like, oh yeah, this could have happened. It's plausible.

496
00:24:35,630 --> 00:24:37,210
Speaker 2: you can't go any further than that. There's no way

497
00:24:37,230 --> 00:24:42,210
Speaker 2: you could say it definitely did happen. Because what would your,

498
00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:45,950
Speaker 2: like epistemologically, how would you know that? That's, I think,

499
00:24:46,190 --> 00:24:48,100
Speaker 2: the real challenge. So I just leave it in the

500
00:24:48,140 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: realm of some of these could plausibly be authentic because

501
00:24:52,859 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 2: I think John 20 and John 21 leave open that possibility.

502
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 2: But there's just no way to know for sure. And

503
00:24:59,660 --> 00:25:03,379
Speaker 2: then others are so far outside the rule of faith

504
00:25:03,460 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 2: realm of early Christianity, that it's almost like they're trying

505
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:13,179
Speaker 2: to use Jesus as a vehicle for aberrant views. And

506
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: that becomes just more and more popular, especially with the Gnostics.

507
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,790
Speaker 2: So it's a difficult question to answer. And I think

508
00:25:21,490 --> 00:25:26,910
Speaker 2: where I kind of land is regardless of any sort

509
00:25:27,090 --> 00:25:29,090
Speaker 2: of certainty about whether this or that thing in Gospel

510
00:25:29,109 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 2: of Thomas, what have you, could be historical. More than anything,

511
00:25:34,020 --> 00:25:36,550
Speaker 2: they give us a window into what early followers of

512
00:25:36,609 --> 00:25:41,970
Speaker 2: Jesus were thinking about. And that, I think, is interesting.

513
00:25:42,130 --> 00:25:45,630
Speaker 2: And where they went wrong or where they perhaps were

514
00:25:45,650 --> 00:25:47,170
Speaker 2: trying to fill in the gaps and that kind of thing.

515
00:25:47,230 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: So that's mostly where I camp out because it's just

516
00:25:49,619 --> 00:25:53,859
Speaker 2: really hard to prove a historical claim from any of

517
00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:57,220
Speaker 2: these documents. At best, you can talk plausibility, in my opinion.

518
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,369
Speaker 1: So when I look at the apocryphal acts in the

519
00:26:00,410 --> 00:26:04,740
Speaker 1: second century— They seem to be based around a historical

520
00:26:04,859 --> 00:26:08,060
Speaker 1: core about Peter and about his death. But then there's

521
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,970
Speaker 1: things that are just radically exaggerated around it. And in

522
00:26:12,010 --> 00:26:15,369
Speaker 1: many ways, more instructive about what people thought or at

523
00:26:15,430 --> 00:26:19,129
Speaker 1: least aberrant views in the second and third century as

524
00:26:19,210 --> 00:26:22,810
Speaker 1: opposed to anything else. It sounds like these gospels, we

525
00:26:22,830 --> 00:26:26,300
Speaker 1: don't even know how much is really historical and how

526
00:26:26,340 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: much is not. It's saying by saying. So this– seems

527
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,700
Speaker 1: to bring two points. Number one, just their historical value

528
00:26:34,740 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 1: to the historical Jesus is going to be minimal. But second,

529
00:26:37,940 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: the idea that the Gospel of Thomas overturns what we

530
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:44,540
Speaker 1: know about Jesus and Judas does is far more fiction

531
00:26:44,580 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: than it is history. Is that fair?

532
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would completely agree. And I think, again, most

533
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,940
Speaker 2: apocryphal gospel scholars within the broad, sort of the broad middle,

534
00:26:52,980 --> 00:26:56,190
Speaker 2: not the fringes, Would agree that even if you could

535
00:26:56,290 --> 00:26:58,710
Speaker 2: prove a few of these things actually went back to Jesus,

536
00:26:58,830 --> 00:27:01,390
Speaker 2: it's a very small amount compared to what you have

537
00:27:01,530 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. We're talking a half

538
00:27:04,619 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 2: a dozen or something. It's not going to rewrite the

539
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,300
Speaker 2: story at all. In fact, it's just going to sort

540
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 2: of tell the same story.

541
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:11,109
Speaker 1: Just going to support it.

542
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: And actually, back to the Gospel of Peter, I think

543
00:27:13,420 --> 00:27:16,219
Speaker 2: a really important point is a lot of work for

544
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,390
Speaker 2: each of these has been done in recent years. Like,

545
00:27:19,430 --> 00:27:21,610
Speaker 2: for instance, Simon Gathercole, who I studied under at Cambridge,

546
00:27:21,670 --> 00:27:23,899
Speaker 2: Mark Goodacre at Duke. Both of them have done a

547
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 2: lot of work on Thomas, and in particular arguing, I

548
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 2: think definitively, that in the areas where there is overlap

549
00:27:31,100 --> 00:27:34,220
Speaker 2: between Thomas and Matthew, Mark, and Luke in particular, a

550
00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:39,820
Speaker 2: little bit in John, Thomas is downstream, not upstream. He's–

551
00:27:40,130 --> 00:27:43,670
Speaker 2: or not he, but the writing is parasitic on the predecessors.

552
00:27:44,780 --> 00:27:47,619
Speaker 2: And for a while, there was an argument that the

553
00:27:47,660 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 2: Gospel of Peter was independent, but the scholarly opinion has

554
00:27:50,700 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: very much shifted. Oh, okay. Chris Tuckett and Paul Foster

555
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,250
Speaker 2: in particular, also in the UK. I think it made

556
00:27:56,290 --> 00:27:59,910
Speaker 2: pretty strong and compelling arguments that the Gospel of Peter

557
00:27:59,950 --> 00:28:04,050
Speaker 2: is downstream from the canonical Gospels, and that any of

558
00:28:04,109 --> 00:28:06,109
Speaker 2: the bits that don't have an overlap.

559
00:28:06,410 --> 00:28:08,430
Speaker 1: Are— Just invented and added.

560
00:28:08,470 --> 00:28:10,859
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're just invented. Again, it's the fan fiction kind

561
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: of idea.

562
00:28:11,060 --> 00:28:11,179
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

563
00:28:12,350 --> 00:28:14,450
Speaker 2: The Gospel of Judas, again, Gathicol. So there was an

564
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: explosion of books on the Gospel of Judas in 2006

565
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 2: when it came out. I remember. I think, I mean, N.T. Wright, Gathicol,

566
00:28:19,980 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: everybody's writing books on the Gospel of Judas. No one

567
00:28:22,060 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 2: talks about it anymore because it's kind of like once

568
00:28:23,619 --> 00:28:26,380
Speaker 2: you realize that it's basically just a Nag Hammadi document

569
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 2: that wasn't found at Nag Hammadi and there's actually not

570
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,620
Speaker 2: that much interesting in it, then the sort of furor

571
00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:34,540
Speaker 2: died down. But I think they, Gathicol in particular, argued

572
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:40,420
Speaker 2: pretty defensively or convincingly that Judas is also downstream of

573
00:28:40,580 --> 00:28:43,010
Speaker 2: the Gospels. And so when you look at all of

574
00:28:43,050 --> 00:28:46,690
Speaker 2: the big ones, I mean, Prodigy of Evangelium of James

575
00:28:46,930 --> 00:28:50,470
Speaker 2: and Infancy Gospel of Thomas use elements of Matthew and Luke. Like,

576
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,540
Speaker 2: they quote from them. So they have to be downstream.

577
00:28:52,580 --> 00:28:54,220
Speaker 1: Unashamedly.

578
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,020
Speaker 2: Infancy Gospel ends with Jesus at the temple and basically

579
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 2: just copies and pastes from Luke 2. So there's none

580
00:28:59,820 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: of them that have any plausible case for being in

581
00:29:03,540 --> 00:29:08,570
Speaker 2: any real way upstream. Obviously, there's going to be parallel

582
00:29:08,630 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 2: streams and portions of it where– I mean, they're probably

583
00:29:11,460 --> 00:29:15,020
Speaker 2: just making stuff up. Or if they're not, they're borrowing

584
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 2: from that oral tradition like in Acts 20, verse 35,

585
00:29:18,780 --> 00:29:20,500
Speaker 2: that's just sort of floating out there. But that's, again,

586
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,550
Speaker 2: a very small amount of stuff. So I would probably

587
00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:24,989
Speaker 2: go back to your Gospel of Peter thing and say

588
00:29:25,010 --> 00:29:30,430
Speaker 2: it's not so much that it adds corroboration to Matthew's

589
00:29:30,470 --> 00:29:32,550
Speaker 2: claim about the guard, but it might have been just

590
00:29:32,670 --> 00:29:37,170
Speaker 2: using Matthew, actually. It's dependent on Matthew. And maybe a

591
00:29:37,250 --> 00:29:39,450
Speaker 2: macro point that's pretty important about all of these gospels

592
00:29:39,470 --> 00:29:41,700
Speaker 2: is and i kind of land there in the final

593
00:29:41,740 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: chapter of the book is when you put them all

594
00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:47,580
Speaker 2: together even if you even if you were able to

595
00:29:47,620 --> 00:29:49,180
Speaker 2: take all of them and put them in a book

596
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 2: they don't even come close to telling you the whole

597
00:29:51,420 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: story of jesus and individually because they have so many

598
00:29:55,550 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: gaps and so forth um You can get close-ish, but

599
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,580
Speaker 2: I have a chart in the book where I'm like, okay,

600
00:30:01,620 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 2: here's where this one could fit in, here's where this

601
00:30:03,100 --> 00:30:04,660
Speaker 2: can fit in. You end up with a lot of gaps.

602
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,970
Speaker 2: And none of them individually make sense as a standalone

603
00:30:12,010 --> 00:30:16,110
Speaker 2: work if you didn't already know the canonical Gospels. I

604
00:30:16,130 --> 00:30:18,969
Speaker 2: think that's a point that often gets missed. Let's say

605
00:30:18,990 --> 00:30:20,969
Speaker 2: you've never read Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John. You have

606
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:25,100
Speaker 2: no information whatsoever. And then you read the Gospel of Judas.

607
00:30:26,130 --> 00:30:29,950
Speaker 2: It would be completely unintelligible because it's talking about it's assuming,

608
00:30:29,990 --> 00:30:33,810
Speaker 2: you know, Andrew and Judas and Peter's mad and Levi

609
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:36,130
Speaker 2: says this and here comes Mary doing whatever. Like, who

610
00:30:36,190 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: are these people? They don't introduce new characters. They're assuming,

611
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 2: you know, the whole cast of characters. They're actually like

612
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,220
Speaker 2: Judas is just maligning the apostles as being like really

613
00:30:45,260 --> 00:30:47,380
Speaker 2: bad guys. Well, it's just got an ax to grind.

614
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,780
Speaker 2: Thomas doesn't make sense unless you know what Jesus is about.

615
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,620
Speaker 2: So they're all just clearly parasitic on the mother-host organism,

616
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,470
Speaker 2: if you will. They don't make sense on their own

617
00:31:00,230 --> 00:31:03,570
Speaker 2: if you bracket out what you already know about the

618
00:31:03,590 --> 00:31:04,730
Speaker 2: gospel tradition.

619
00:31:05,670 --> 00:31:08,210
Speaker 1: That's a super helpful way to look at it. So

620
00:31:08,630 --> 00:31:10,270
Speaker 1: one question, and I'll dive in a few of these.

621
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,420
Speaker 1: Some of these stories are just crazy. Almost they're just

622
00:31:14,620 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: invented how dramatic they are and interesting. But before— Before

623
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: we get there, when I was in high school and

624
00:31:22,420 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 1: college in the 90s, it was all about the Jesus Seminar.

625
00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:28,210
Speaker 1: These scholars who are voting pink and red and gray

626
00:31:28,270 --> 00:31:31,090
Speaker 1: beads about the words of Jesus. You have the fifth gospel.

627
00:31:31,270 --> 00:31:33,230
Speaker 2: Which was Thomas. Exactly.

628
00:31:33,250 --> 00:31:35,090
Speaker 1: Of course, you get into the 2000s, and then you

629
00:31:35,110 --> 00:31:37,730
Speaker 1: have the Da Vinci Code. I mean, that lasted forever.

630
00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:39,490
Speaker 2: And that was Gospel of Mary was influencing that.

631
00:31:39,510 --> 00:31:41,750
Speaker 1: Gospel of Mary, good, about Jesus being married and all

632
00:31:41,790 --> 00:31:45,570
Speaker 1: this kind of stuff. Has some of that drama died down?

633
00:31:45,710 --> 00:31:48,670
Speaker 1: I mean, when Christmas and Easter comes around, you see the,

634
00:31:49,130 --> 00:31:52,410
Speaker 1: I don't know, National Geographic, these stories pop up. But

635
00:31:52,450 --> 00:31:55,430
Speaker 1: it seems like it's died down a little bit to me.

636
00:31:55,890 --> 00:31:59,210
Speaker 1: Of course, on the internet, everything is fair game now.

637
00:31:59,710 --> 00:32:02,190
Speaker 1: But in the scholarly world, kind of the position you're

638
00:32:02,210 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: taking here, is this kind of a consensus position that

639
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,130
Speaker 1: most people realize, you know what, these hidden gospels, really

640
00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:12,370
Speaker 1: aren't revealing that much new, and they're downstream from the

641
00:32:12,410 --> 00:32:13,370
Speaker 1: canonical Gospels?

642
00:32:13,810 --> 00:32:17,150
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's a few moving parts. One, you're right,

643
00:32:17,510 --> 00:32:20,490
Speaker 2: we had a series of major events. I think you

644
00:32:20,510 --> 00:32:22,910
Speaker 2: could probably go back to the 70s with the discovery

645
00:32:22,950 --> 00:32:25,490
Speaker 2: of the Nagamati stuff, and that was publicized. Fair enough.

646
00:32:25,590 --> 00:32:27,410
Speaker 2: It sold millions. And so that was when this stuff

647
00:32:27,470 --> 00:32:30,500
Speaker 2: really got on people's radar screens. In the 80s, you

648
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: had the Jesus Seminar, and that's when everybody and their

649
00:32:32,580 --> 00:32:35,469
Speaker 2: mom knew about the Gospel of Thomas. And then that

650
00:32:35,490 --> 00:32:37,490
Speaker 2: kind of dies down once you read the Gospel of Thomas.

651
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,580
Speaker 2: And you're like, okay, a lot of it overlaps. A

652
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: lot of it's weird.

653
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: Fine.

654
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: Then you had the Gospel of Mary. popularized or influencing

655
00:32:46,260 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: Dan Brown. And I was in seminary at the time,

656
00:32:48,780 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: and it was all the rage. Everybody's in panic mode

657
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:52,450
Speaker 2: about The Da Vinci Code.

658
00:32:52,670 --> 00:32:56,530
Speaker 1: That was the one season where every apologist had a

659
00:32:56,630 --> 00:32:59,030
Speaker 1: job for a few months. Speak everywhere.

660
00:32:59,050 --> 00:33:00,670
Speaker 2: I don't know if this is true at Biola, but

661
00:33:00,690 --> 00:33:02,910
Speaker 2: when I mentioned The Da Vinci Code to my students now,

662
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:04,820
Speaker 2: none of them have heard of it. Oh, for sure.

663
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 2: They don't have a clue.

664
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,500
Speaker 1: I mean, the movie was 06 and the book 03, right?

665
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:08,900
Speaker 2: Exactly, yeah.

666
00:33:09,530 --> 00:33:10,550
Speaker 1: Over two decades ago.

667
00:33:10,590 --> 00:33:12,670
Speaker 2: And so that was a big deal. That was a

668
00:33:12,730 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: watershed moment. I think even Ehrman mentions in one of

669
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,820
Speaker 2: his books that the Da Vinci Code is really what

670
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,140
Speaker 2: put the apocryphal B-side Jesus, if you will, the sort

671
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: of alternative Jesus on the radar screen. It made it

672
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,900
Speaker 2: kind of sexy. In a popular role. That's when people

673
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: realized this stuff sells. 2006 is when Gospel of Judas

674
00:33:28,620 --> 00:33:33,290
Speaker 2: comes out. National Geographic has a big documentary, cover story,

675
00:33:33,310 --> 00:33:35,570
Speaker 2: all kind of stuff. That becomes a big deal. Then

676
00:33:35,610 --> 00:33:38,620
Speaker 2: it was quiet for a while. Uh, then the last

677
00:33:38,780 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: big event was 2013, 2012, 2013 with the Jesus wife fragment. Oh.

678
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: And of course the internet lost its mind over that.

679
00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:48,370
Speaker 2: So we can talk about that. Yep. And so we've

680
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 2: been about a little bit over it. And then a

681
00:33:50,550 --> 00:33:52,250
Speaker 2: couple of years later it was discovered to be a forgery,

682
00:33:52,290 --> 00:33:54,530
Speaker 2: but of course no one bothered to report that part

683
00:33:54,810 --> 00:33:57,650
Speaker 2: of the story. It doesn't sell. So we haven't had

684
00:33:57,690 --> 00:34:00,530
Speaker 2: a big discovery in the past decade. So in one sense...

685
00:34:00,930 --> 00:34:04,630
Speaker 2: There has probably been a mellowing out. You could also

686
00:34:04,730 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: argue that a lot of the scholars, Karen King, Elaine Pagels,

687
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 2: Barton Airman just retired. A lot of them have retired.

688
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,020
Speaker 2: So a lot of the scholars who are big in

689
00:34:13,060 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: this field, really pushing the agenda in terms of this

690
00:34:15,739 --> 00:34:17,310
Speaker 2: is the real Jesus, it's going to change the way

691
00:34:17,330 --> 00:34:20,930
Speaker 2: we understand Christianity, blah, blah, blah. They've all retired. And

692
00:34:21,070 --> 00:34:23,870
Speaker 2: so what you have now is sort of the dust

693
00:34:23,910 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 2: has settled a bit. and the Jesus' Wife fragment was

694
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,219
Speaker 2: a big kind of blight on the industry, if you will,

695
00:34:29,300 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: kind of a big embarrassment. It's like, maybe we're trying

696
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,460
Speaker 2: a little too hard here. I think you have a

697
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 2: more sober reappraisal from a handful of scholars who are like, okay,

698
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,739
Speaker 2: we can approach this in a little bit more level-headed way.

699
00:34:39,780 --> 00:34:44,919
Speaker 2: So Francis Watson, Gallagher, Cole, Marcus Bachmull, Jan Schroeder in Germany,

700
00:34:44,940 --> 00:34:46,219
Speaker 2: and so forth. So there's been a bit of a

701
00:34:46,260 --> 00:34:49,720
Speaker 2: calming down. That being said, what I found to be interesting,

702
00:34:49,739 --> 00:34:52,620
Speaker 2: even in the past couple of years, is that New

703
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,180
Speaker 2: manuscript discoveries that aren't quite as sensationalized as these others

704
00:34:56,500 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 2: have still made the news. So, for instance, in I

705
00:35:00,140 --> 00:35:02,830
Speaker 2: think it was a papyrology journal in Germany a year ago,

706
00:35:02,850 --> 00:35:07,510
Speaker 2: another early fragment of the Infancy Gospel of Thomas was discovered.

707
00:35:08,550 --> 00:35:10,709
Speaker 2: And it's not like we've known about the Infancy Gospel

708
00:35:10,730 --> 00:35:11,989
Speaker 2: of Thomas for a long time. It's not a big deal.

709
00:35:12,690 --> 00:35:15,770
Speaker 2: But it made Fox News, The Economist, like everybody was

710
00:35:15,790 --> 00:35:17,989
Speaker 2: reporting on. It's like a new fragment that tells us

711
00:35:18,030 --> 00:35:20,290
Speaker 2: the early story of Jesus. I'm like, well, it doesn't.

712
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:23,569
Speaker 2: It's just one of many fragments of this particular work.

713
00:35:23,969 --> 00:35:26,690
Speaker 2: But the fact that it was so widely covered, that

714
00:35:26,710 --> 00:35:31,140
Speaker 2: wouldn't have happened 10 years ago. And then Pioxy 5575

715
00:35:31,140 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: was discovered– well, it wasn't discovered recently. It was published recently,

716
00:35:33,739 --> 00:35:36,930
Speaker 2: and it had portions of Matthew and Thomas kind of

717
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:39,810
Speaker 2: blended together. And that made the news.

718
00:35:39,830 --> 00:35:39,930
Speaker 1: Okay.

719
00:35:41,010 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 2: But Oxyrhynchus, this is a papyrus, Oxyrhynchus 5575, Oxyrhynchus findings

720
00:35:46,100 --> 00:35:49,239
Speaker 2: do not make the national news, typically, right? These are

721
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:55,479
Speaker 2: published in expensive monographs from the Egyptian Exploration Society. Nobody

722
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,399
Speaker 2: pays attention, but this time they did. And a lot

723
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:01,489
Speaker 2: of Christianity Today covered it. A lot of big outlets

724
00:36:01,530 --> 00:36:03,049
Speaker 2: covered it. I don't think that would have happened 10

725
00:36:03,050 --> 00:36:04,850
Speaker 2: years ago. So there's still an appetite for it. We

726
00:36:04,890 --> 00:36:09,350
Speaker 2: just haven't had The latest salacious discovery that's going to

727
00:36:09,390 --> 00:36:11,009
Speaker 2: change everything. We haven't had one of those, but we're

728
00:36:11,050 --> 00:36:13,530
Speaker 2: kind of due, so we'll see. We should go hunt

729
00:36:13,550 --> 00:36:15,210
Speaker 2: around on these grounds, see if we can find some

730
00:36:15,230 --> 00:36:17,690
Speaker 2: sort of papyrus buried that tells us the story of

731
00:36:17,710 --> 00:36:17,890
Speaker 2: the Jesus.

732
00:36:17,910 --> 00:36:20,570
Speaker 1: Well, we have such deep Christian roots, and we're in

733
00:36:20,710 --> 00:36:24,890
Speaker 1: such a conspiracy-first mindset now that the right finding might

734
00:36:25,010 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 1: even take off more than in the past, maybe.

735
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:28,739
Speaker 2: There we go.

736
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: I guess that remains to be seen.

737
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:32,380
Speaker 2: Or we can forge something.

738
00:36:32,980 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, that's a whole other– conversation, the ability to

739
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,580
Speaker 1: forge now is so much higher and greater than it's

740
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: been in the past that we're going to see more

741
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,060
Speaker 1: come up. Now, mentioning that, you talked about the gospel

742
00:36:46,100 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: of Jesus's wife. This is a crazy story.

743
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:50,220
Speaker 2: Pretty bizarre.

744
00:36:50,540 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: What happened? And maybe actually just start with what happened

745
00:36:53,900 --> 00:36:55,300
Speaker 1: with the gospel of Jesus's wife?

746
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,259
Speaker 2: Yeah. So most of the time they call it the

747
00:36:58,340 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: Jesus wife fragment, unless you really want to get some clicks,

748
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 2: then you call it the gospel of Jesus's wife. So

749
00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:09,180
Speaker 2: this is a very small, it's probably that big, Coptic

750
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,420
Speaker 2: fragment that was published by Karen King, who was a

751
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,460
Speaker 2: professor of divinity at Harvard. She discussed it at a

752
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,500
Speaker 2: Coptology conference. It's like the most obscure place you could

753
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 2: possibly do something like this. And late 2012, 2013, came

754
00:37:24,420 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 2: out with it in the Harvard Theological Review. So it

755
00:37:26,300 --> 00:37:28,859
Speaker 2: was a big push by the university to publicize this.

756
00:37:29,950 --> 00:37:32,549
Speaker 2: And it's mostly garbled, doesn't make a lot of sense,

757
00:37:32,570 --> 00:37:34,890
Speaker 2: but sort of smack in the middle of the surviving fragment.

758
00:37:35,030 --> 00:37:39,910
Speaker 2: It says, it goes, Jesus said, my wife, dot, dot, dot,

759
00:37:39,930 --> 00:37:42,410
Speaker 2: because there's a hole there or it's missing sort of letters,

760
00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: can be a disciple, something to that effect. And of course,

761
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:51,020
Speaker 2: when she published it, she was part of that older

762
00:37:51,100 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: guard of scholars that were really pushing the gospel of Mary,

763
00:37:53,940 --> 00:37:58,170
Speaker 2: this rebranding of early Christianity and so on. And so

764
00:37:58,230 --> 00:38:04,450
Speaker 2: she later admitted she was trying to maximize the coverage

765
00:38:04,550 --> 00:38:07,570
Speaker 2: by calling it the Jesus wife fragment or whatever you

766
00:38:07,590 --> 00:38:09,989
Speaker 2: want to call it. And as soon as the images

767
00:38:10,030 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: were released, the internet actually pretty quickly did its job

768
00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 2: for once. Wow. Now, remember, this is 2013, so we're

769
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,239
Speaker 2: talking like blogger and all these like random– We're talking

770
00:38:19,260 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 2: dial-up almost at that time. Yeah, we're talking early, early days. Yeah.

771
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:27,469
Speaker 2: But a handful of some evangelicals, some non-evangelicals saw it,

772
00:38:27,790 --> 00:38:29,930
Speaker 2: people who were specialists in Coptic, which is a pretty

773
00:38:30,050 --> 00:38:33,940
Speaker 2: rare kind of thing, very hard language. And they're like,

774
00:38:33,980 --> 00:38:36,840
Speaker 2: that doesn't look right. It looks like it was painted

775
00:38:36,940 --> 00:38:42,460
Speaker 2: by some kid. Once they released the decipherment of the transcription,

776
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 2: like this doesn't even make sense in Coptic part of it,

777
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,060
Speaker 2: a lot of grammatical mistakes. And then the smoking gun

778
00:38:48,100 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: was a discovery that the portions of it, there was

779
00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:53,359
Speaker 2: a grammatical mistake, basically, that was pulled from a PDF

780
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,860
Speaker 2: of the Gospel of Thomas. Essentially, the conclusion was someone

781
00:38:57,930 --> 00:39:03,489
Speaker 2: Frankensteined this together using snippets from an erroneous copy of

782
00:39:03,530 --> 00:39:05,770
Speaker 2: the Gospel of Thomas that had been put online in

783
00:39:05,810 --> 00:39:08,290
Speaker 2: a PDF and then taken down and replaced, but there

784
00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:11,050
Speaker 2: was like an archive version of it. It's a wild story,

785
00:39:11,090 --> 00:39:13,850
Speaker 2: like sort of internet detective. Oh, yeah. And so that

786
00:39:13,969 --> 00:39:15,830
Speaker 2: led people to really dig in and say, okay, something's

787
00:39:15,850 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 2: wrong with the paleography. Something's wrong with the grammar. It

788
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: seems like it's ripping off the fragments of Gospel of Thomas.

789
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,770
Speaker 2: And so actually an investigative journalist, Ariel Sabar, dug into this.

790
00:39:28,130 --> 00:39:31,049
Speaker 2: Long story short, the book he ended up writing is,

791
00:39:31,090 --> 00:39:33,090
Speaker 2: I think, really good for a beach read, which I

792
00:39:33,130 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 2: wouldn't say for most. It's called Veritas, riffing off the

793
00:39:36,340 --> 00:39:36,819
Speaker 2: Harvard thing.

794
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:38,420
Speaker 1: Oh, and the Harvard thing.

795
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,299
Speaker 2: The Harvard thing. He goes deep, and he's flying all

796
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,700
Speaker 2: over the world. It came out, I think, 2016 maybe,

797
00:39:43,739 --> 00:39:46,299
Speaker 2: but one of the best sort of Bible whodunits that

798
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 2: I've ever read. Ultimately, and not surprisingly, based on where

799
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 2: we're recording this, it goes back to a Florida man

800
00:39:54,580 --> 00:39:58,170
Speaker 2: who he ends up finding this guy. He eventually admits

801
00:39:58,270 --> 00:40:00,990
Speaker 2: that he passed this off to Karen King. He never

802
00:40:01,150 --> 00:40:04,609
Speaker 2: quite admitted that he was himself the forger. We still

803
00:40:04,630 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 2: don't know who forged it, but. All of the evidence

804
00:40:08,260 --> 00:40:10,370
Speaker 2: leads to the fact that it was a forgery. She

805
00:40:10,570 --> 00:40:13,210
Speaker 2: has finally admitted it's a forgery, but it's still important

806
00:40:13,230 --> 00:40:13,810
Speaker 2: because it shows.

807
00:40:13,830 --> 00:40:14,990
Speaker 1: And she knew it was a forgery?

808
00:40:15,090 --> 00:40:16,629
Speaker 2: She did not know. To her credit, she did not

809
00:40:16,670 --> 00:40:18,660
Speaker 2: know that she had been lied to. And actually, a

810
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 2: bunch of coptologists that she had consulted with had said, hey, no,

811
00:40:22,820 --> 00:40:26,100
Speaker 2: this looks legit. And the papyrus is ancient, but that's

812
00:40:26,140 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: not that hard. You can get that stuff on the

813
00:40:27,540 --> 00:40:31,370
Speaker 2: black market when it was carbon dated. So ultimately, it

814
00:40:31,410 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: was a very weird story of Essentially, a guy in

815
00:40:34,940 --> 00:40:37,780
Speaker 2: Florida who was really wanting to push this agenda picked

816
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,990
Speaker 2: her as his vehicle to pass this off on because

817
00:40:41,010 --> 00:40:42,610
Speaker 2: he knew she could amplify it, and he had a

818
00:40:42,630 --> 00:40:45,049
Speaker 2: bit of an ax to grind against Orthodox Christianity and

819
00:40:45,070 --> 00:40:45,510
Speaker 2: so forth.

820
00:40:45,530 --> 00:40:46,770
Speaker 1: Oh, fascinating.

821
00:40:46,850 --> 00:40:49,950
Speaker 2: That's kind of where the story ended. But they never

822
00:40:50,010 --> 00:40:51,859
Speaker 2: retracted a lot of the articles and that kind of thing,

823
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:54,339
Speaker 2: so it was a weird— Harvard never retracted it. Not

824
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,590
Speaker 2: in a sort of official way, yeah, so— It's a

825
00:40:57,650 --> 00:41:00,050
Speaker 2: weird story. But it plays into the whole conspiracy theory

826
00:41:00,130 --> 00:41:02,469
Speaker 2: idea of like, hey, what if Jesus did have– maybe

827
00:41:02,489 --> 00:41:04,359
Speaker 2: Dan Brown was right all along kind of thing.

828
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: It's curious what are some of the lessons from this,

829
00:41:07,460 --> 00:41:09,940
Speaker 1: and it seemed to be a few for me that anybody,

830
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,060
Speaker 1: no matter how much of an expert they are, is

831
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: just prone to be caught by breaking a story and

832
00:41:16,620 --> 00:41:19,750
Speaker 1: something new. We all can be drawn into this. The

833
00:41:19,790 --> 00:41:21,930
Speaker 1: other lesson is just because something is published in a

834
00:41:21,969 --> 00:41:26,819
Speaker 1: journal as prestigious as Harvard doesn't mean it's necessarily gospel

835
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,299
Speaker 1: pun intended. But the other lesson is I actually like

836
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 1: how the internet worked on this one. It can spread lies,

837
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: but also people can look and speak truth into it.

838
00:41:36,250 --> 00:41:37,250
Speaker 2: So that's a positive.

839
00:41:37,870 --> 00:41:40,230
Speaker 1: Any other lessons we would take from this? I guess

840
00:41:40,250 --> 00:41:41,549
Speaker 1: the last one I would say is like when we

841
00:41:41,590 --> 00:41:45,250
Speaker 1: hear these new findings that are so dramatic, take a

842
00:41:45,270 --> 00:41:48,910
Speaker 1: deep breath. Slow down. I've been around long enough to

843
00:41:48,969 --> 00:41:51,290
Speaker 1: hear a ton of these from the Jesus seminar to

844
00:41:51,350 --> 00:41:54,469
Speaker 1: other ones we haven't talked about. We're overturning everything. And

845
00:41:54,489 --> 00:41:56,730
Speaker 1: then the dust settles. It's like, no, this is not

846
00:41:56,790 --> 00:41:59,190
Speaker 1: as significant as we thought. That seems to be a

847
00:41:59,210 --> 00:42:01,570
Speaker 1: big lesson from this. What's some of your takeaways?

848
00:42:01,989 --> 00:42:06,410
Speaker 2: I probably would just add one more on the apologetic side.

849
00:42:06,650 --> 00:42:10,090
Speaker 2: So folks like yourself and me, I'm not an apologist technically,

850
00:42:10,130 --> 00:42:14,250
Speaker 2: but it's unavoidable to dabble in defending the faith.

851
00:42:14,270 --> 00:42:14,370
Speaker 1: Sure.

852
00:42:15,469 --> 00:42:19,070
Speaker 2: People who are more evangelically minded, the one to defend

853
00:42:19,110 --> 00:42:21,430
Speaker 2: the high view of Scripture and so forth, are often

854
00:42:21,489 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 2: critiqued for being overly zealous, twisting facts in their direction,

855
00:42:26,930 --> 00:42:29,299
Speaker 2: using bad arguments. And that's fair. It happens. We need

856
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 2: to listen to that kind of critique.

857
00:42:30,860 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 1: I agree.

858
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,919
Speaker 2: What's really interesting about this scenario is that it was

859
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,660
Speaker 2: the exact same behavior but on the other side of

860
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:43,610
Speaker 2: the table. It was– secular scholars with a very clear

861
00:42:43,790 --> 00:42:47,890
Speaker 2: axe to grind about how they view early Christianity and

862
00:42:47,930 --> 00:42:50,310
Speaker 2: the true story of Jesus, which is very much against

863
00:42:50,950 --> 00:42:57,590
Speaker 2: the mainstream Orthodox view, using bad data, using bad arguments,

864
00:42:57,750 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 2: digging in, publicizing things, a lot of money, changing hands, conferences,

865
00:43:03,860 --> 00:43:07,330
Speaker 2: all that kind of— using their tools— and then they ended

866
00:43:07,370 --> 00:43:09,210
Speaker 2: up with egg on their face. And so I think it's,

867
00:43:09,390 --> 00:43:11,690
Speaker 2: it's wise for us all to kind of check ourselves

868
00:43:12,110 --> 00:43:16,469
Speaker 2: that a bad apologetics can happen on both sides of

869
00:43:16,510 --> 00:43:19,590
Speaker 2: the table. And so that's, I think it's important to

870
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:22,589
Speaker 2: realize that it's, I think it's easy for a young Christian,

871
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,360
Speaker 2: you know, a college student to think that we're the

872
00:43:25,500 --> 00:43:28,580
Speaker 2: ones who always have to prove everything. And the academics

873
00:43:28,820 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: are the, are the intimidating ones who have it all right.

874
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: We had to fight. And I was like, no, they

875
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: have it wrong. Sometimes they also have an agenda. That's

876
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,529
Speaker 2: important to realize. And, Apocryphal Gospels are a big place

877
00:43:37,550 --> 00:43:42,390
Speaker 2: where that agenda shows itself. In fact, N.T. Wright, regardless

878
00:43:42,430 --> 00:43:43,870
Speaker 2: of his view of him, he was right on this.

879
00:43:44,650 --> 00:43:47,170
Speaker 2: When Gospel of Judas came out, he says, yeah, maybe

880
00:43:47,230 --> 00:43:50,259
Speaker 2: it's earth-shattering, or maybe this simply shows the cards of

881
00:43:50,380 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 2: what this alternative, what these people want to prove about

882
00:43:53,820 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: this alternative Jesus. Maybe it's more a mirror to ourselves.

883
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,640
Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, he called that one.

884
00:43:59,780 --> 00:44:02,420
Speaker 2: He called that one out. So I think it's a

885
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,690
Speaker 2: good reminder that... all of us need to strive to

886
00:44:05,730 --> 00:44:07,930
Speaker 2: make the best arguments we can with the best data

887
00:44:07,950 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 2: that we can. It cuts both ways. Love it.

888
00:44:09,810 --> 00:44:12,210
Speaker 1: That's a great, great takeaway. Now we've talked about the

889
00:44:12,290 --> 00:44:15,650
Speaker 1: gospel of Thomas, but there's a writing called the infancy

890
00:44:15,870 --> 00:44:19,029
Speaker 1: gospel of Thomas. Maybe tell us a little bit what

891
00:44:19,070 --> 00:44:21,739
Speaker 1: that is. Why was it written? And then I kind

892
00:44:21,780 --> 00:44:23,180
Speaker 1: of want to circle back to what do you make

893
00:44:23,219 --> 00:44:28,100
Speaker 1: of it appearing in the Quran? Interestingly enough, centuries later.

894
00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:30,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is probably my favorite. If I can

895
00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 2: say that, is that going to get me in trouble?

896
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:33,280
Speaker 1: Why would that get you in trouble?

897
00:44:33,540 --> 00:44:38,340
Speaker 2: Because this one is, it's like boy wizard Jesus. And

898
00:44:38,380 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: it's just hilarious to read.

899
00:44:39,540 --> 00:44:42,180
Speaker 1: Favorite on the level of fascinating and intriguing and like,

900
00:44:42,380 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: what is happening here?

901
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, when you read it, it's actually pretty entertaining.

902
00:44:46,460 --> 00:44:49,660
Speaker 2: And so what it is, it actually, some version of

903
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:51,610
Speaker 2: it goes back to the second century. Some of the

904
00:44:51,630 --> 00:44:54,009
Speaker 2: church fathers reference some of the stories that are in it.

905
00:44:54,890 --> 00:44:57,670
Speaker 2: The mature form of it maybe is a little bit later,

906
00:44:58,230 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: but some of the traditions about these exploits of boy

907
00:45:02,100 --> 00:45:05,570
Speaker 2: wizard Jesus go back at least to the second century.

908
00:45:05,860 --> 00:45:09,290
Speaker 2: So it's pretty ancient. It was also rather popular. So

909
00:45:09,570 --> 00:45:11,590
Speaker 2: what was interesting is that we call it apocryphal gospel,

910
00:45:11,610 --> 00:45:13,190
Speaker 2: but it was by no means hidden. I mean, there's

911
00:45:13,230 --> 00:45:16,790
Speaker 2: dozens of copies geographically spread out. It was very well known.

912
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,500
Speaker 2: Infancy gospel is probably a misnomer. That's the modern label

913
00:45:21,540 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 2: for it. It's not really a gospel in that it

914
00:45:23,460 --> 00:45:26,460
Speaker 2: doesn't talk about the life, death, resurrection of Jesus. Fair enough.

915
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: It's not even about the infancy. What it covers is

916
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: when Jesus– basically, it's a series of episodes from when

917
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,739
Speaker 2: Jesus was five to when he was 12. And as

918
00:45:34,780 --> 00:45:36,969
Speaker 2: Luke narrates in Luke 2, he ends up at the

919
00:45:37,010 --> 00:45:38,390
Speaker 2: temple and that kind of thing. So it's trying to

920
00:45:38,430 --> 00:45:42,549
Speaker 2: fill that gap. And what you experience are this– it's

921
00:45:42,610 --> 00:45:47,710
Speaker 2: just a series of interesting stories where Jesus will, like,

922
00:45:47,870 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 2: zap a classmate who bumps into him, strike him dead.

923
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: And he raises him back to life, but he, like,

924
00:45:53,660 --> 00:45:56,830
Speaker 2: gets mad at him. Or there'll be many scenes where

925
00:45:56,850 --> 00:45:59,450
Speaker 2: he's with his teachers, like his Hebrew teachers, because his dad, Joseph,

926
00:45:59,510 --> 00:46:02,529
Speaker 2: is trying to get him educated. And he just owns them,

927
00:46:02,610 --> 00:46:05,810
Speaker 2: like over and over again, just kills them, embarrasses them

928
00:46:05,830 --> 00:46:07,430
Speaker 2: in front of everyone. They get all mad. The whole

929
00:46:07,469 --> 00:46:08,629
Speaker 2: town's like, what are we going to do with this,

930
00:46:08,710 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 2: like Wonder Kid? And then the one that you mentioned,

931
00:46:12,380 --> 00:46:16,640
Speaker 2: he makes clay pigeons or sparrows and then breathes life

932
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:18,340
Speaker 2: into them. They become real. And that does show up

933
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,980
Speaker 2: in the Quran at Surahs 3 and 5. It's mentioned twice.

934
00:46:21,870 --> 00:46:24,330
Speaker 2: which shows you just how far this book had traveled

935
00:46:24,590 --> 00:46:28,140
Speaker 2: to the Arabian Peninsula. And so it's easy to look

936
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,700
Speaker 2: at that kind of writing and kind of laugh at

937
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:32,379
Speaker 2: it because it is a little bit funny. It's like

938
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 2: Jesus just kind of being this irrational preteen who can't

939
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,420
Speaker 2: control his powers. And there's been a ton of debate

940
00:46:39,460 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: about why was it written? What is it trying to accomplish?

941
00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:47,259
Speaker 2: And so a very common scholarly view looks at it

942
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,299
Speaker 2: as very offensive, right? It's like, why would Jesus– it's

943
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:53,620
Speaker 2: almost like this petulant kid just leaving disaster in his wake,

944
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:57,180
Speaker 2: and that seems to be offensive. And you can read

945
00:46:57,219 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: it and be offended. That's fine. I would totally understand

946
00:47:00,020 --> 00:47:04,259
Speaker 2: that reaction, and I wouldn't want to commend, you know,

947
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:06,640
Speaker 2: like a teenager to spend too much time with the– like,

948
00:47:07,180 --> 00:47:09,720
Speaker 2: spend some time with Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John first,

949
00:47:09,780 --> 00:47:11,780
Speaker 2: and then before you read that. I get that reaction.

950
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 2: But I've lately come to view it as actually a

951
00:47:14,540 --> 00:47:15,819
Speaker 2: bit more sophisticated than that.

952
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:16,060
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

953
00:47:16,739 --> 00:47:18,460
Speaker 2: What I think is so interesting about the book is

954
00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: that it is perhaps failingly, but a sincere attempt at

955
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: trying to think through what would the God-man be like

956
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:33,110
Speaker 2: as a child. It presupposes the deity of Jesus. In fact,

957
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:35,649
Speaker 2: it's front and center all throughout. People are bowing down

958
00:47:35,690 --> 00:47:38,049
Speaker 2: and worshiping him. They say, no one can do this

959
00:47:38,110 --> 00:47:40,149
Speaker 2: but God, those kinds of things. Of course, they're ripping

960
00:47:40,190 --> 00:47:42,129
Speaker 2: that off from the Gospels. But they're trying to think through, okay,

961
00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:45,230
Speaker 2: if he actually is born to the Virgin Mary and

962
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,060
Speaker 2: He's Lord from his birth, according to the angels. Then

963
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,670
Speaker 2: what would— like, we don't have any data on that from Matthew, Mark, Luke,

964
00:47:52,690 --> 00:47:54,330
Speaker 2: and John. He's born, and then all of a sudden

965
00:47:54,350 --> 00:47:56,810
Speaker 2: he's 12. We have no gap in between. That's right.

966
00:47:57,430 --> 00:48:01,390
Speaker 2: But Luke says he grew in wisdom and knowledge. And

967
00:48:01,430 --> 00:48:04,450
Speaker 2: so what the infancy gospel is trying to do is,

968
00:48:04,510 --> 00:48:08,250
Speaker 2: I think quite sincerely and somewhat entertainingly, think through what

969
00:48:08,290 --> 00:48:12,069
Speaker 2: would that be like. And so should they have done that?

970
00:48:12,090 --> 00:48:12,150
Speaker 1: No.

971
00:48:12,170 --> 00:48:15,970
Speaker 2: No. Probably not. But I don't know. They didn't have Netflix, right?

972
00:48:15,989 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 2: So this is like, let's just come with it. It's

973
00:48:18,460 --> 00:48:20,259
Speaker 2: like a manager sitting around like, what would you have

974
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 2: been like at a seven-year-old? That's kind of an interesting question.

975
00:48:22,739 --> 00:48:24,400
Speaker 2: I don't think it's the right question to ask, but

976
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,140
Speaker 2: I can see how you might get there. It's fine.

977
00:48:26,219 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: It's interesting.

978
00:48:27,500 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: Again, fan fiction. And so what I find is interesting

979
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 2: is that he goes from when he's five, not having

980
00:48:35,910 --> 00:48:39,410
Speaker 2: a thoughtful way to control his powers to by the end,

981
00:48:39,910 --> 00:48:43,259
Speaker 2: everyone's been healed. And he's using his divine powers for

982
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:47,490
Speaker 2: good as opposed to like kind of petulantly striking, lashing

983
00:48:47,570 --> 00:48:50,390
Speaker 2: out at kids that bother him at school. So they

984
00:48:50,489 --> 00:48:54,259
Speaker 2: show this progression where he's able to, for lack of

985
00:48:54,300 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 2: a better term, harness his deity. So I think it's

986
00:48:58,420 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 2: a really interesting thought experiment of like, OK, we believe

987
00:49:01,300 --> 00:49:04,540
Speaker 2: that Jesus is fully God and fully man. What would

988
00:49:04,580 --> 00:49:06,819
Speaker 2: that look like for him to grow into that? And

989
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: people are worshiping along the way. So I thought, I mean,

990
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,830
Speaker 2: they might have failed at how they ended up describing it.

991
00:49:13,730 --> 00:49:17,129
Speaker 2: But for me, apologetically, I think it's really interesting because

992
00:49:17,170 --> 00:49:19,710
Speaker 2: it shows you that by the middle of the second century,

993
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 2: this is where I think the upshot is, regardless of

994
00:49:23,420 --> 00:49:24,900
Speaker 2: the way you think it's ridiculous. And it kind of

995
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:27,489
Speaker 2: is a little bit ridiculous. But the fact that they

996
00:49:27,530 --> 00:49:30,230
Speaker 2: are actually saying, okay, Jesus as a boy when he's

997
00:49:30,330 --> 00:49:35,190
Speaker 2: seven or eight is so holy, like his father is

998
00:49:35,270 --> 00:49:38,070
Speaker 2: in the Old Testament, New Testament, whenever Ananias and Sapphira

999
00:49:38,090 --> 00:49:43,529
Speaker 2: are stricken down or Uzziah or whatever. That offenses to

1000
00:49:43,570 --> 00:49:47,910
Speaker 2: his holiness merit death, but then he heals them. That's

1001
00:49:47,969 --> 00:49:51,310
Speaker 2: a pretty mature Christology when you think about it. That

1002
00:49:51,390 --> 00:49:54,890
Speaker 2: actually the idea that the belief that Jesus is fully

1003
00:49:54,960 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 2: divine was so entrenched by call it 150. that they

1004
00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:03,650
Speaker 2: were even thinking about the second-order implications. How might that

1005
00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:06,650
Speaker 2: have played out when he was a kid? So for me, actually,

1006
00:50:07,110 --> 00:50:09,609
Speaker 2: if nothing else, it is an argument for high Christology.

1007
00:50:09,790 --> 00:50:11,750
Speaker 2: One of many. I mean, there's plenty of biblical— you don't

1008
00:50:11,850 --> 00:50:14,009
Speaker 2: need it to make the argument, but it shows you

1009
00:50:14,050 --> 00:50:16,550
Speaker 2: that in the early church they were taking that very seriously,

1010
00:50:16,570 --> 00:50:19,230
Speaker 2: because the story doesn't make sense unless you already have

1011
00:50:19,290 --> 00:50:24,529
Speaker 2: a fully mature, now 150 years before Nicaea, view of

1012
00:50:24,610 --> 00:50:27,469
Speaker 2: the full deity and full humanity of Jesus. And that,

1013
00:50:27,510 --> 00:50:29,250
Speaker 2: I think, makes it really, really interesting. So that's why

1014
00:50:29,270 --> 00:50:29,750
Speaker 2: it's my favorite.

1015
00:50:30,290 --> 00:50:33,530
Speaker 1: Well, that's the key that he's human, he's wrestling these things,

1016
00:50:33,610 --> 00:50:34,810
Speaker 1: but he's also divine.

1017
00:50:34,850 --> 00:50:35,380
Speaker 2: Fully divine.

1018
00:50:35,780 --> 00:50:38,719
Speaker 1: But you also said it's like they're also trying to

1019
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:41,859
Speaker 1: keep him sinless, although they push up against that barrier.

1020
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,100
Speaker 2: It's pushing the envelope as close as you can. And

1021
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,340
Speaker 2: it does at times seem like, okay, that was a

1022
00:50:48,380 --> 00:50:51,020
Speaker 2: sinful action. But if you view it as, no, he

1023
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 2: is fully divine as well, then essentially what they're doing

1024
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 2: is they're taking, especially some Old Testament scenes, you know,

1025
00:50:57,060 --> 00:51:01,390
Speaker 2: when the Israelites are, God sends serpents to kill someone.

1026
00:51:01,410 --> 00:51:06,230
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, is that kind of holiness transported to

1027
00:51:07,030 --> 00:51:10,540
Speaker 2: six-year-old Jesus? What would that look like in his context?

1028
00:51:10,580 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 2: So I don't think you have to argue that it's

1029
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: quote-unquote sinful. It's more, okay, he is such a holy

1030
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:22,259
Speaker 2: six-year-old that he's, he's striking people down in a way

1031
00:51:22,300 --> 00:51:25,130
Speaker 2: that's roughly analogous again, imperfectly. And there's a lot of

1032
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:26,589
Speaker 2: problems with it, but I think that's what they're trying

1033
00:51:26,610 --> 00:51:28,310
Speaker 2: to do is play that out.

1034
00:51:28,510 --> 00:51:30,089
Speaker 1: Do you have any sense if they meant it to

1035
00:51:30,130 --> 00:51:32,610
Speaker 1: be taken as historical or it's just kind of a

1036
00:51:32,730 --> 00:51:33,990
Speaker 1: thought experiment?

1037
00:51:34,850 --> 00:51:37,230
Speaker 2: It's hard to know. I mean, they end at Luke

1038
00:51:37,250 --> 00:51:41,190
Speaker 2: two and basically just quote from Luke two. Um, it's

1039
00:51:41,270 --> 00:51:43,810
Speaker 2: hard to know otherwise what is going through their heads.

1040
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:46,250
Speaker 2: I have to think though, when you read it, that

1041
00:51:46,270 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 2: there's like, Hey, come check this out. Like, I ran

1042
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,219
Speaker 2: this through chat GPT. What would Jesus have been like

1043
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:55,190
Speaker 2: as a seven-year-old or whatever? It has that vibe where

1044
00:51:55,210 --> 00:51:57,130
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like anyone was taken. Because no one

1045
00:51:57,410 --> 00:51:59,370
Speaker 2: ever talked about it as like, oh, this is authentic.

1046
00:51:59,410 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: This is canonical. No, they're like, this is a story

1047
00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 2: that exists and that's fine. But it's not– we can

1048
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,259
Speaker 2: have that. We can have our– it's like the Narnia

1049
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 2: on the whatever of its day. It's not meant to

1050
00:52:10,500 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 2: be taken as equal to the other writings.

1051
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 1: Well, a lot of evangelicalism did not get that memo,

1052
00:52:16,940 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: just for the record, on C.S.

1053
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 2: Lewis' writings.

1054
00:52:18,780 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: Fair enough. But I digress. Okay, so one more I

1055
00:52:21,680 --> 00:52:23,140
Speaker 1: want to ask you about before we get to some

1056
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: of the evidence that plays in here is the Proto-Evangelium

1057
00:52:27,540 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: of James. Now, this struck me as fascinating because this

1058
00:52:30,910 --> 00:52:32,710
Speaker 1: is where, as far as I understand it– correct me

1059
00:52:32,730 --> 00:52:36,500
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong– certain Catholic ideas about Mary come from,

1060
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: and it plays off of the Scripture but goes beyond

1061
00:52:40,180 --> 00:52:43,500
Speaker 1: what we have in the Scripture, say, like Matthew and Luke. Right.

1062
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:46,790
Speaker 1: So when was this written? What is it? Tell us

1063
00:52:46,810 --> 00:52:47,609
Speaker 1: a little bit about that.

1064
00:52:47,950 --> 00:52:49,630
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, part of the challenge is what to

1065
00:52:49,690 --> 00:52:52,630
Speaker 2: call it. And so, yes, the most common title is

1066
00:52:52,710 --> 00:52:59,180
Speaker 2: the Proto or Proto-Evangelium of James. And so in that word, Proto-Evangelium,

1067
00:52:59,219 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 2: it's a pre-gospel.

1068
00:53:00,620 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

1069
00:53:01,670 --> 00:53:04,570
Speaker 2: It has no historical ties to James, the brother of Jesus.

1070
00:53:04,610 --> 00:53:07,270
Speaker 2: That was just a later fiction. But in the manuscripts,

1071
00:53:07,510 --> 00:53:10,420
Speaker 2: of which there are many, the titles are all over

1072
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,839
Speaker 2: the place. But in essence, what it's trying to do

1073
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 2: is tell the backstory of Mary. So it's really the

1074
00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:20,150
Speaker 2: quote-unquote pre-gospel of Mary. Jesus plays very little role in it,

1075
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:21,899
Speaker 2: so it's not really a gospel in the full sense.

1076
00:53:23,090 --> 00:53:27,750
Speaker 2: And again, some of the evidence vaguely in the church fathers,

1077
00:53:27,770 --> 00:53:30,330
Speaker 2: they'll make reference to some details. They don't mention it

1078
00:53:30,370 --> 00:53:32,950
Speaker 2: by name. early on, but they'll mention some of the

1079
00:53:32,989 --> 00:53:35,810
Speaker 2: details that come only from this book. And so they

1080
00:53:35,830 --> 00:53:39,190
Speaker 2: were aware of something in the second century. The earliest

1081
00:53:39,250 --> 00:53:42,720
Speaker 2: manuscript we have of it is the Bodmer Papyrus No. 5,

1082
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:44,510
Speaker 2: which would be like third century, maybe a little bit later,

1083
00:53:46,050 --> 00:53:51,339
Speaker 2: and nearly intact in Greek. And essentially what this writing is,

1084
00:53:51,940 --> 00:53:56,880
Speaker 2: is yet again another attempt of shoring up high Christology,

1085
00:53:57,660 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: but doing it in a way that's quite interesting by

1086
00:54:00,020 --> 00:54:05,950
Speaker 2: shoring up Mary because it's really about her backstory. And

1087
00:54:06,010 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: so the book basically starts with her parents, which they

1088
00:54:09,540 --> 00:54:12,940
Speaker 2: name Joaquin and Anna, Anna presumably just riffing off of

1089
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:18,989
Speaker 2: Hannah from 1 Samuel, wealthy Davidic lineage and so forth.

1090
00:54:19,260 --> 00:54:25,910
Speaker 2: And Anna has a miraculous conception prior to them doing

1091
00:54:25,930 --> 00:54:29,830
Speaker 2: what adults do. And she discovers that she's pregnant. Joaquin

1092
00:54:29,890 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 2: is told by an angel, your wife is going to

1093
00:54:31,300 --> 00:54:32,859
Speaker 2: be pregnant. And he's like, oh, she's pregnant. So how

1094
00:54:32,900 --> 00:54:36,180
Speaker 2: does this happen? And so Mary herself is conceived in

1095
00:54:36,380 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 2: a virginal, miraculous kind of way or the immaculate conception

1096
00:54:40,780 --> 00:54:44,840
Speaker 2: of Mary, which does become a tenet of Roman Catholicism.

1097
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: And so then Mary's born. She dies. She gets devoted

1098
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:53,390
Speaker 2: to the temple. Basically, her parents are like, hey, she's

1099
00:54:53,410 --> 00:54:55,649
Speaker 2: so holy because of this miracle. We're going to, almost

1100
00:54:55,690 --> 00:54:57,410
Speaker 2: like Samuel, we're going to devote her to the temple.

1101
00:54:57,430 --> 00:54:59,770
Speaker 2: She grows up in the temple, which further ratchets up

1102
00:54:59,850 --> 00:55:03,130
Speaker 2: her stature. She's from the Davidic line. She has this

1103
00:55:03,170 --> 00:55:07,160
Speaker 2: temple connection. She weaves stuff, weaves like the curtain of

1104
00:55:07,180 --> 00:55:09,980
Speaker 2: the temple and so forth. And then it's time for

1105
00:55:10,020 --> 00:55:12,980
Speaker 2: her to get married. And so they basically hold a lottery.

1106
00:55:13,060 --> 00:55:16,380
Speaker 2: It's like bachelorette. first century or something like that. And

1107
00:55:16,460 --> 00:55:18,460
Speaker 2: Joseph comes forward. He's the one who's picked. And he's like,

1108
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 2: wait a second, I've already been married. My wife's dead

1109
00:55:20,060 --> 00:55:23,299
Speaker 2: and I have children. He already has children. He gets

1110
00:55:23,340 --> 00:55:27,430
Speaker 2: betrothed to Mary. And then it basically just picks up

1111
00:55:27,489 --> 00:55:29,790
Speaker 2: where Matthew wanted to and Luke wanted to in terms

1112
00:55:29,850 --> 00:55:33,410
Speaker 2: of her own miraculous conception of Jesus with one wrinkle,

1113
00:55:34,130 --> 00:55:38,220
Speaker 2: which is before and after she gives birth to Jesus,

1114
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 2: there are these admittedly rather graphic attempts at proving that

1115
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:47,779
Speaker 2: she remained an intact virgin. That's a big part of

1116
00:55:47,820 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 2: the story. The midwife's trying to prove that out, and

1117
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 2: one of them has her hand burnt off and all

1118
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 2: kinds of strange things. But it's trying to prove that

1119
00:55:56,340 --> 00:56:00,660
Speaker 2: she remained a virgin before and after the birth of Jesus. Now,

1120
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 2: the reason why it matters is that it either influences

1121
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:08,710
Speaker 2: Roman Catholicism directly as a literary source, Or it reflects

1122
00:56:08,790 --> 00:56:13,330
Speaker 2: the traditions that do ultimately influence Roman Catholicism in three

1123
00:56:13,390 --> 00:56:15,110
Speaker 2: main ways. Well, there's a handful of ways. First off,

1124
00:56:15,130 --> 00:56:18,390
Speaker 2: in the Roman Catholic liturgy, they have feast days for

1125
00:56:18,780 --> 00:56:20,299
Speaker 2: Joaquin and Anna.

1126
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:21,200
Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.

1127
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,220
Speaker 2: And they have a feast day for the Immaculate Conception

1128
00:56:25,260 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 2: of Mary. That's still something that's celebrated. Of course, it's

1129
00:56:27,980 --> 00:56:30,460
Speaker 2: not in the Bible at all. It's only recorded in

1130
00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 2: this book. And then the common view that the brothers

1131
00:56:35,580 --> 00:56:38,540
Speaker 2: of Jesus and even sisters of Jesus mentioned, Matthew, Mark,

1132
00:56:38,580 --> 00:56:42,589
Speaker 2: and Luke, like James, Jude, and so forth, the idea

1133
00:56:42,630 --> 00:56:48,750
Speaker 2: that they're not actual half-brothers, but they're essentially cousins or stepbrothers,

1134
00:56:48,770 --> 00:56:50,890
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call them, from a prior marriage

1135
00:56:50,930 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 2: of Joseph. None of that's in the New Testament. Some

1136
00:56:54,900 --> 00:56:57,100
Speaker 2: of the church fathers were debating that, but it gets

1137
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:02,850
Speaker 2: crystallized in this writing in terms of– Joseph having prior children.

1138
00:57:03,850 --> 00:57:06,509
Speaker 2: And then the Perpetual Virginity of Mary, which is a

1139
00:57:06,630 --> 00:57:11,110
Speaker 2: deeply held Roman Catholic view, obviously has no clear source

1140
00:57:11,170 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 2: in the New Testament, but it's very emphatically articulated in

1141
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 2: this particular writing. And so Protevangelium was the most popular,

1142
00:57:17,980 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 2: in my opinion. There's hundreds of copies in multiple languages

1143
00:57:20,780 --> 00:57:21,340
Speaker 2: all over the place.

1144
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:21,700
Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.

1145
00:57:22,690 --> 00:57:26,290
Speaker 2: It influences artwork. It influences even our modern nativity scene.

1146
00:57:26,330 --> 00:57:28,260
Speaker 2: I was talking about this over Christmas. I did a

1147
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:31,700
Speaker 2: Christmas Mythbusters series at my church in the adult Sunday school.

1148
00:57:32,820 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 2: And the modern nativity where you have Mary riding on

1149
00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:39,200
Speaker 2: a donkey. She's fully pregnant, right? She gets to Bethlehem

1150
00:57:39,220 --> 00:57:42,300
Speaker 2: with Joseph and the inns are all full. And like

1151
00:57:42,340 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: Holiday Inn Express is like go out into the wilderness

1152
00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:49,700
Speaker 2: and she gives birth in a stable out in the wilderness. Newsflash,

1153
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,110
Speaker 2: none of that's actually in Matthew or Luke. She's not

1154
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 2: on a donkey, or at least it's not mentioned. She

1155
00:57:53,700 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 2: might have been. We don't know. We have no idea

1156
00:57:55,400 --> 00:57:56,780
Speaker 2: how long they were in Bethlehem. She could have been

1157
00:57:56,800 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 2: there for weeks if it were Joseph's ancestral home, which

1158
00:57:59,980 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 2: is why he was there for the census. So these

1159
00:58:01,580 --> 00:58:03,700
Speaker 2: little details are only found in the Protean Evangelium. You

1160
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:07,150
Speaker 2: just didn't realize that. So your Christmas celebration was from

1161
00:58:07,190 --> 00:58:08,050
Speaker 2: an apocryphal gospel.

1162
00:58:08,090 --> 00:58:10,470
Speaker 1: You're killing my Christmas here, Greg. Sorry, I had to.

1163
00:58:10,610 --> 00:58:14,610
Speaker 2: That's my job. That's awesome. So tremendously influential.

1164
00:58:14,870 --> 00:58:16,780
Speaker 1: So you're not Roman Catholic. If you were going to

1165
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 1: step back as a scholar and look at this, Would

1166
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: you assess it with the same level of historicity, some

1167
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:26,300
Speaker 1: of these other apocryphal writings saying it's reflective of the

1168
00:58:26,340 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 1: second century, but in terms of any of the narrative

1169
00:58:29,980 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: that's in it, minimal reason to take it as historically

1170
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:37,060
Speaker 1: informative of what happened in the first century? Would that

1171
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:37,740
Speaker 1: be your assessment?

1172
00:58:37,820 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah. There's nothing any more persuasive about its historicity.

1173
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:45,860
Speaker 1: Than any of the other ones? No.

1174
00:58:46,790 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 2: What's interesting is if you look at some of the–

1175
00:58:48,570 --> 00:58:51,620
Speaker 2: speaking of apologetics again, one of the big bad guys

1176
00:58:51,700 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 2: for the early Christian apologists was Celsus. And quite famously,

1177
00:58:57,520 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 2: one of the reasons why he mocked early Christians was

1178
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,540
Speaker 2: he said, look, Jesus was born to these poor parents

1179
00:59:02,540 --> 00:59:05,620
Speaker 2: with no lineage to speak of. How could you possibly

1180
00:59:05,620 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 2: worship a guy like that? It's ridiculous because you know,

1181
00:59:08,740 --> 00:59:10,740
Speaker 2: they were middle class or poor or what have you.

1182
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 2: And so you could argue that what they're trying to

1183
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,410
Speaker 2: do with this writing is kind of gin up a

1184
00:59:16,450 --> 00:59:20,070
Speaker 2: backstory of Mary to respond to that. Say, no, no, no, no.

1185
00:59:20,250 --> 00:59:23,650
Speaker 2: Mary was actually pretty cool. Davidic lineage, wealthy parents, kind

1186
00:59:23,690 --> 00:59:27,110
Speaker 2: of quasi-royalty, grew up in the temple. She also had a...

1187
00:59:27,450 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 2: For her to be... the Theotokos, you know, the God bearer,

1188
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 2: then maybe she has to be sinless. And so we

1189
00:59:33,500 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 2: can come up with a context for that. Namely, she

1190
00:59:35,540 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 2: was immaculately conceived. So, so there's a very plausible apologetic, um,

1191
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:44,870
Speaker 2: context that you could say that that's probably, you can't

1192
00:59:44,910 --> 00:59:47,890
Speaker 2: prove it. Cause again, that is a very plausible way

1193
00:59:47,910 --> 00:59:51,050
Speaker 2: to say that's where this writing came from. It really is.

1194
00:59:51,110 --> 00:59:54,350
Speaker 2: As one scholar put it, it is, um, high Christology

1195
00:59:54,730 --> 00:59:59,950
Speaker 2: via high Mariology. Um, um, Which is an interesting strategy.

1196
01:00:00,850 --> 01:00:02,290
Speaker 2: But there's no reason to think that any of it

1197
01:00:02,550 --> 01:00:07,330
Speaker 2: is really plausible, or at least it's hard to disprove that.

1198
01:00:07,410 --> 01:00:09,750
Speaker 2: Like her mom was named– we don't know. But it's

1199
01:00:09,770 --> 01:00:12,330
Speaker 2: just interesting that it developed into the Roman Catholic kind

1200
01:00:12,350 --> 01:00:12,690
Speaker 2: of world.

1201
01:00:12,750 --> 01:00:17,750
Speaker 1: That's super interesting conversation for another time. Well, there's a

1202
01:00:17,790 --> 01:00:20,030
Speaker 1: ton of stuff I appreciate about your book. I want

1203
01:00:20,050 --> 01:00:22,590
Speaker 1: to get to the last chapter, kind of the last two.

1204
01:00:22,630 --> 01:00:25,740
Speaker 1: You kind of bring together– here's your assessment of these

1205
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:29,510
Speaker 1: apocryphal gospels. And you make the case for the historical

1206
01:00:29,570 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: Jesus and for the canonical Gospels. The first section is

1207
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:39,500
Speaker 1: titled Evidence from the Apocryphal Gospels. How do the Apocryphal

1208
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:44,240
Speaker 1: Gospels set themselves against the four Gospels, which ironically provides

1209
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,260
Speaker 1: evidence for the veracity of the four Gospels?

1210
01:00:47,540 --> 01:00:50,100
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, veracity, I'll probably not say veracity because that's

1211
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:52,500
Speaker 2: a claim as to the content of the four Gospels.

1212
01:00:52,980 --> 01:00:55,450
Speaker 2: The way I position it is that I think the

1213
01:00:55,490 --> 01:01:00,250
Speaker 2: apocryphal gospels provide valuable evidence that there was a mainstream

1214
01:01:00,430 --> 01:01:02,950
Speaker 2: for gospel canon that they're responding to.

1215
01:01:02,970 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 1: Okay, so preexisted were accepted. Whether they're true or not.

1216
01:01:08,220 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 2: Is a separate question. That's a totally different issue. And

1217
01:01:11,060 --> 01:01:13,360
Speaker 2: that factors in like historical stuff. Yeah, good distinction. So

1218
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,300
Speaker 2: when you look at the apocryphal gospels, first off, like

1219
01:01:16,340 --> 01:01:21,410
Speaker 2: I mentioned already, in terms of their content, the arrows

1220
01:01:21,670 --> 01:01:25,190
Speaker 2: all point– with very rare, if any, exception. I don't

1221
01:01:25,210 --> 01:01:28,070
Speaker 2: think there's any, but Edgerton Gospel is probably the one

1222
01:01:28,110 --> 01:01:31,990
Speaker 2: that's like, eh, maybe there's at least a case can

1223
01:01:32,010 --> 01:01:34,490
Speaker 2: be made in the opposite direction. But in general, we

1224
01:01:34,510 --> 01:01:37,430
Speaker 2: look at Thomas, Peter, Judas, Mary, Embassy Gospel of Thomas,

1225
01:01:37,470 --> 01:01:40,340
Speaker 2: Prodigy of Gilead and James, all of these, the arrows

1226
01:01:40,420 --> 01:01:44,060
Speaker 2: point downstream from the four gospels to them, not the

1227
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:48,220
Speaker 2: other way around. So the flow of the tradition is

1228
01:01:48,340 --> 01:01:51,550
Speaker 2: always from the nucleus of the fourfold canon, and they're

1229
01:01:51,610 --> 01:01:54,570
Speaker 2: parasitic on them. in terms of their content. And so

1230
01:01:54,610 --> 01:01:57,670
Speaker 2: the way it's in the book, you may recall, I

1231
01:01:57,710 --> 01:01:59,490
Speaker 2: get into some of the details. It's complicated to prove

1232
01:01:59,510 --> 01:02:01,330
Speaker 2: it out, but the way you have to do it

1233
01:02:01,370 --> 01:02:04,820
Speaker 2: is look at, okay, how does Luke tweak maybe a

1234
01:02:04,910 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 2: saying in Matthew? And then if that tweak shows up

1235
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 2: in Thomas, then that would strongly imply that Thomas is

1236
01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:14,240
Speaker 2: using Luke, if that makes sense. But anyway, it's a

1237
01:02:14,260 --> 01:02:18,410
Speaker 2: complicated conversation. That's part of it. Second, their stance towards

1238
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:22,760
Speaker 2: the apostolic circle, I think is really interesting. Either, They

1239
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:26,580
Speaker 2: are positive towards the apostles, and they're trying to cash

1240
01:02:26,660 --> 01:02:28,300
Speaker 2: in on their street cred. So it's like, hey, we

1241
01:02:28,340 --> 01:02:31,340
Speaker 2: wrote a thing. Let's attribute it to, hmm, we can't

1242
01:02:31,420 --> 01:02:34,640
Speaker 2: use Matthew. That's already taken. Can't use Mark. That's already taken.

1243
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:37,420
Speaker 2: Luke's taken. John's taken. All right, Thomas. Let's pick Thomas.

1244
01:02:37,660 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 2: There's no book by him, so they do that. And

1245
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:41,720
Speaker 2: so in one sense, same thing with Gospel of Peter,

1246
01:02:42,360 --> 01:02:47,060
Speaker 2: they're cashing in on the normativity of the apostles. Or

1247
01:02:47,620 --> 01:02:49,680
Speaker 2: in the Gospel of Judas and Mary in particular, and

1248
01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 2: Thomas to a degree, They're really mad at the apostles.

1249
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,740
Speaker 2: They don't like them at all. When you read the

1250
01:02:56,780 --> 01:03:03,590
Speaker 2: Gospel of Judas, it's just very spiteful towards the 11

1251
01:03:03,590 --> 01:03:08,150
Speaker 2: other apostles and how bad they are. That implies that

1252
01:03:08,270 --> 01:03:11,030
Speaker 2: it's a fixed point to push off against. You don't

1253
01:03:11,090 --> 01:03:12,890
Speaker 2: pick a fight with somebody that you don't care about.

1254
01:03:14,210 --> 01:03:17,669
Speaker 2: And so the fact that the normative apostles cast this

1255
01:03:17,750 --> 01:03:23,140
Speaker 2: big shadow over the apocryphal gospels implies that they were

1256
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:28,650
Speaker 2: the well-known central source of apostolic authority that you would

1257
01:03:28,750 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 2: push against. The use of apocryphal by these writings, so

1258
01:03:34,900 --> 01:03:38,660
Speaker 2: the Apocryphon of John, so the word apocrypha in Coptic

1259
01:03:38,700 --> 01:03:40,479
Speaker 2: is used in the Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Judas,

1260
01:03:40,500 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 2: these sort of hidden sayings. You don't use that terminology

1261
01:03:44,540 --> 01:03:47,900
Speaker 2: unless you're trying to set yourself up to be distinct

1262
01:03:47,980 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 2: from the public gospels that you're kind of trying to

1263
01:03:52,420 --> 01:03:55,940
Speaker 2: critique in some way. And what's on that point, what's

1264
01:03:55,960 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 2: interesting about that is if you look at Elaine Pagels

1265
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:00,580
Speaker 2: or whomever, or even Bart Ehrman, what they want you

1266
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:02,660
Speaker 2: to think is that it was all one big happy family.

1267
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:06,510
Speaker 2: That early Christianity... It's just a bunch of writings and

1268
01:04:06,550 --> 01:04:08,570
Speaker 2: everybody's fine with each other. And it was just the

1269
01:04:08,650 --> 01:04:11,990
Speaker 2: later bishops or a Constantine or somebody who's like, no,

1270
01:04:12,010 --> 01:04:15,840
Speaker 2: we're going to snuff out these bad heterodox. I'm like, no, actually,

1271
01:04:15,860 --> 01:04:18,180
Speaker 2: when you read the apocryphal gospels, they're pretty ticked off

1272
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 2: at mainstream apostolic Christianity, which shows you that there is

1273
01:04:24,540 --> 01:04:28,030
Speaker 2: a normatively line of thought, a normative rule of faith

1274
01:04:28,070 --> 01:04:30,950
Speaker 2: that they are responding to. It's not a big kumbaya

1275
01:04:31,070 --> 01:04:33,370
Speaker 2: at all. It's actually a bit of a competition. It's

1276
01:04:33,390 --> 01:04:35,850
Speaker 2: not a competition in terms of canon, but it's like, no,

1277
01:04:35,890 --> 01:04:38,350
Speaker 2: whose ideas are going to win out? Well, what's interesting

1278
01:04:38,370 --> 01:04:41,920
Speaker 2: is that the stream seems to go from orthodoxy to non-orthodoxy,

1279
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 2: not the other way around. So I think the apocryphal

1280
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:49,740
Speaker 2: gospels kind of interestingly show us that there is a

1281
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 2: coherent apostolic testimony to Jesus that they're responding to. Last

1282
01:04:54,380 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 2: thing I'll add. Yeah.

1283
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:56,320
Speaker 1: No, that's great.

1284
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,080
Speaker 2: Simon Gathickel recently released a book called The Gospel and

1285
01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 2: the Gospels. That's the big version. There's a shorter version,

1286
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:06,940
Speaker 2: a kind of popular version. He's at Cambridge. And I

1287
01:05:06,980 --> 01:05:09,480
Speaker 2: think he does a great job, and I basically just

1288
01:05:09,540 --> 01:05:11,940
Speaker 2: synthesize his argument in one part of that final chapter,

1289
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,840
Speaker 2: where he says, look, if you take 1 Corinthians 15,

1290
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:20,180
Speaker 2: which 1 Corinthians predates pretty much on any reckoning, Matthew, Mark, Luke,

1291
01:05:20,200 --> 01:05:22,780
Speaker 2: and John. Mm-hmm. And what you have is Paul says,

1292
01:05:22,820 --> 01:05:25,880
Speaker 2: here's the tradition. Here's the gospel that I passed on

1293
01:05:25,900 --> 01:05:27,920
Speaker 2: to you that you've received and which you stand by

1294
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 2: what you're being saved unless you believe in vain, et cetera,

1295
01:05:29,780 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 2: et cetera. He's like, all right, what is it? What's

1296
01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 2: this gospel? And notice it's not something he's making up.

1297
01:05:34,060 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 2: He's received it. It's the apostolic faith. That's right. In

1298
01:05:37,740 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 2: a nutshell, 1 Corinthians 15, 3 and 4. He says

1299
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 2: Christ died for our sins in accordance with Scripture. He

1300
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,980
Speaker 2: was buried. He was raised according to Scripture on the

1301
01:05:48,020 --> 01:05:50,190
Speaker 2: third day, and he made all these appearances. He says,

1302
01:05:50,310 --> 01:05:54,700
Speaker 2: that's the gospel in a nutshell. An atoning death, fulfillment

1303
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:58,780
Speaker 2: of scripture, he's the Messiah, he was raised, and he

1304
01:05:59,260 --> 01:06:03,520
Speaker 2: appeared empirically to these various apostles. And he says, all

1305
01:06:03,620 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 2: four of the canonical gospels, that's the story they tell.

1306
01:06:07,560 --> 01:06:09,680
Speaker 2: The fulfillment of scripture and the life of Jesus, his

1307
01:06:09,740 --> 01:06:13,150
Speaker 2: atoning death, and his resurrection appearances, they all follow that storyline.

1308
01:06:14,030 --> 01:06:17,150
Speaker 2: None of the apocryphal ones do. That becomes, I think

1309
01:06:17,190 --> 01:06:20,940
Speaker 2: Gadigal makes a great case that That is the intrinsic

1310
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:23,160
Speaker 2: way you differentiate them. Because a lot of folks will say, look,

1311
01:06:23,180 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 2: there's no difference here. It's like, no, there is a

1312
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,580
Speaker 2: big difference between all these others and the four. The

1313
01:06:27,660 --> 01:06:30,320
Speaker 2: four tell that story. The others don't. So you look

1314
01:06:30,340 --> 01:06:32,390
Speaker 2: at the Gospel of Peter. Does it have a resurrection? Yes,

1315
01:06:32,430 --> 01:06:36,530
Speaker 2: but it has no meaning whatsoever. It's non-salvific. He's never

1316
01:06:36,570 --> 01:06:39,530
Speaker 2: called the Christ in Peter, at least the parts that

1317
01:06:39,550 --> 01:06:43,490
Speaker 2: we have. The Old Testament has no real role to play.

1318
01:06:44,260 --> 01:06:47,240
Speaker 2: It's not a, hey, this fulfills Isaiah or what have you.

1319
01:06:47,260 --> 01:06:49,420
Speaker 2: It's just like he just was resurrected, and that's kind

1320
01:06:49,460 --> 01:06:51,820
Speaker 2: of it. Same thing with Gospel of Thomas. There's no

1321
01:06:51,860 --> 01:06:54,620
Speaker 2: resurrection in Gospel of Thomas. There's no salvation, or at

1322
01:06:54,660 --> 01:06:57,330
Speaker 2: least it's not salvation in a traditional sense. It's like

1323
01:06:57,370 --> 01:07:00,550
Speaker 2: salvation through higher knowledge. So none of them, and you

1324
01:07:00,570 --> 01:07:03,550
Speaker 2: could multiply that out, but none of them actually kind

1325
01:07:03,590 --> 01:07:07,060
Speaker 2: of fit that early, you know, call it 40s A.D.,

1326
01:07:09,510 --> 01:07:12,230
Speaker 2: crystallization of what Christianity is about that Paul is reflecting

1327
01:07:12,310 --> 01:07:14,410
Speaker 2: in 1 Corinthians 15. None of the other gospels do that.

1328
01:07:14,510 --> 01:07:17,410
Speaker 2: Only the four do. So that becomes this almost centripetal force.

1329
01:07:17,450 --> 01:07:19,160
Speaker 2: It's like, no, these are the four that are the

1330
01:07:19,220 --> 01:07:23,580
Speaker 2: real ones that reflect early Christian, you know, soteriology, really,

1331
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:24,540
Speaker 2: and the others don't.

1332
01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:27,040
Speaker 1: There's a ton more at the end of your book

1333
01:07:27,100 --> 01:07:30,700
Speaker 1: where you draw out and give even further evidence that

1334
01:07:30,740 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 1: they're distinct and they're later and they're not as historically

1335
01:07:33,980 --> 01:07:37,770
Speaker 1: reliable as the gospels are. But what about the church fathers?

1336
01:07:37,790 --> 01:07:39,930
Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned that the Infancy Gospel of Thomas

1337
01:07:40,030 --> 01:07:44,820
Speaker 1: was well-known. Proto-Evangelium of James is well-known.

1338
01:07:45,860 --> 01:07:47,300
Speaker 2: Thomas is well-known, yeah.

1339
01:07:47,320 --> 01:07:51,780
Speaker 1: Thomas is well-known. Are they cited differently from the church fathers?

1340
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:54,540
Speaker 1: Like does this help establish in any way that the

1341
01:07:54,580 --> 01:08:00,230
Speaker 1: canonical gospels were considered more authoritative and earlier than the

1342
01:08:00,830 --> 01:08:01,430
Speaker 1: apocryphal gospels?

1343
01:08:01,450 --> 01:08:05,620
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So– What I've tried to do, both in

1344
01:08:05,660 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 2: my work on canon and then on this particular topic,

1345
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:10,260
Speaker 2: is start as early as I can and kind of

1346
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:13,420
Speaker 2: build the case in terms of usage and what the

1347
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:14,940
Speaker 2: scribes do and that kind of thing. But once you

1348
01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:20,030
Speaker 2: get to patristic conversations about it, it's very clear that

1349
01:08:20,270 --> 01:08:23,790
Speaker 2: the four are the four, they've always been the four,

1350
01:08:24,189 --> 01:08:26,610
Speaker 2: and so on. And so when they talk about these

1351
01:08:26,630 --> 01:08:33,170
Speaker 2: other writings, and they were well-read, I mean, these guys

1352
01:08:33,210 --> 01:08:35,570
Speaker 2: had read most of these. The only one that's never

1353
01:08:35,670 --> 01:08:39,740
Speaker 2: mentioned directly is Gospel of Mary, for whatever reason. When

1354
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:44,580
Speaker 2: they talk about them, it's always negative. Like, oh yeah,

1355
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:47,740
Speaker 2: we have two letters of Peter, Mark probably got his

1356
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,000
Speaker 2: info from Peter, but there's this other gospel attributed to

1357
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:53,210
Speaker 2: Peter that's bad. And it's like, it's unreliable, it's made up,

1358
01:08:53,229 --> 01:08:55,549
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. They're always negative. There's one exception,

1359
01:08:56,390 --> 01:08:59,750
Speaker 2: which is this issue involving the Gospel of Peter and

1360
01:08:59,810 --> 01:09:04,620
Speaker 2: the bishop Serapion. And so Serapion was a bishop, and

1361
01:09:04,660 --> 01:09:08,020
Speaker 2: he was dealing with a squabble at a city known

1362
01:09:08,060 --> 01:09:12,150
Speaker 2: as Rossus. And apparently they were debating over this book,

1363
01:09:12,350 --> 01:09:14,370
Speaker 2: some sort of book associated with Peter. We don't know

1364
01:09:14,410 --> 01:09:18,150
Speaker 2: exactly what it is, but they ask him, what should

1365
01:09:18,189 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 2: we do? He's like, well, that's the only thing that

1366
01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:23,020
Speaker 2: you're mad. This is all documented by Eusebius, by the way.

1367
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:27,500
Speaker 2: And so Serapion, who was by no means like a prominent,

1368
01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:30,690
Speaker 2: he's not like the archbishop or anything. He's not like

1369
01:09:30,729 --> 01:09:32,930
Speaker 2: a super important, he wasn't speaking as the pope or

1370
01:09:32,950 --> 01:09:36,790
Speaker 2: anything like that. He says, fine, read it. I don't

1371
01:09:36,810 --> 01:09:39,890
Speaker 2: really care. It's fine. Then he goes there and he

1372
01:09:39,990 --> 01:09:42,269
Speaker 2: gets a copy of it. And he's like, wait a second.

1373
01:09:42,290 --> 01:09:45,729
Speaker 2: He pumps his brakes. Some of this is okay. Most

1374
01:09:45,770 --> 01:09:49,340
Speaker 2: of this is a brand of early docetism. That was

1375
01:09:49,380 --> 01:09:50,900
Speaker 2: his take on it. And he ends up writing a

1376
01:09:50,900 --> 01:09:54,110
Speaker 2: whole book about it. The book is lost, but he's like, nope,

1377
01:09:54,189 --> 01:09:56,430
Speaker 2: Gospel of Peter, not bad, or not good. So he

1378
01:09:56,470 --> 01:09:59,230
Speaker 2: kind of backpedals. And so a lot of folks will

1379
01:09:59,250 --> 01:10:01,410
Speaker 2: look at that and say, look, it was a free-for-all.

1380
01:10:01,970 --> 01:10:05,100
Speaker 2: Bishop Serapion was fine with you reading multiple Gospels. I'm like, no,

1381
01:10:05,439 --> 01:10:08,460
Speaker 2: that's not the argument. The argument is he doesn't say

1382
01:10:08,620 --> 01:10:11,760
Speaker 2: use them in worship. He says, fine, quit arguing. I

1383
01:10:11,800 --> 01:10:13,320
Speaker 2: don't care if you read it. It's not a big deal.

1384
01:10:13,340 --> 01:10:14,719
Speaker 2: And then when he reads it, he's like, wait a second,

1385
01:10:14,810 --> 01:10:19,030
Speaker 2: there's a problem here. And he stops the issue. He says, no,

1386
01:10:19,490 --> 01:10:21,370
Speaker 2: he doesn't like burn it. He's like, no, this is

1387
01:10:21,729 --> 01:10:24,990
Speaker 2: not helpful. So with that one exception, which I don't

1388
01:10:25,010 --> 01:10:27,890
Speaker 2: even actually think is an exception, everyone else is like, no,

1389
01:10:27,910 --> 01:10:32,800
Speaker 2: these are not authentic. They're spurious. And then when they

1390
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:36,219
Speaker 2: talk about the Gospels, it's always the four. Every list,

1391
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:40,620
Speaker 2: every canon list, every discussion about the Gospels or the

1392
01:10:40,660 --> 01:10:43,820
Speaker 2: canon is always Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Did they

1393
01:10:43,860 --> 01:10:46,880
Speaker 2: debate authorship of Hebrews? Yeah. Did they debate Revelation?

1394
01:10:46,900 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1395
01:10:47,300 --> 01:10:51,100
Speaker 2: Did they debate 2 Peter? Yeah. At least in certain pockets.

1396
01:10:51,140 --> 01:10:55,179
Speaker 2: They never debated the Gospels, ever. That's the one major exception.

1397
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:57,509
Speaker 2: It's like, no, they never debated the four Gospels, at

1398
01:10:57,520 --> 01:11:00,810
Speaker 2: least not in any source that I'm aware of. So that,

1399
01:11:00,850 --> 01:11:04,450
Speaker 2: I think, is a pretty strong argument that for them

1400
01:11:04,490 --> 01:11:10,309
Speaker 2: to have that unanimity means that a century before that,

1401
01:11:10,689 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 2: the fourfold canon was well-established. It wasn't even up for debate,

1402
01:11:15,320 --> 01:11:19,470
Speaker 2: and no one picked it. Or according to Clement of Alexandria,

1403
01:11:19,510 --> 01:11:22,750
Speaker 2: John the Apostle put his sort of seal on things.

1404
01:11:22,830 --> 01:11:24,530
Speaker 2: He'd gotten the other three, wrote his own, and that's

1405
01:11:24,550 --> 01:11:28,370
Speaker 2: the end of the story. But yeah, their debate is

1406
01:11:28,870 --> 01:11:31,710
Speaker 2: very one-sided in favor of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John

1407
01:11:32,270 --> 01:11:34,350
Speaker 2: by the time you get to their debates. But it

1408
01:11:34,390 --> 01:11:36,750
Speaker 2: had already been developing. They never say, hey, we picked

1409
01:11:36,770 --> 01:11:37,090
Speaker 2: the four.

1410
01:11:37,110 --> 01:11:37,170
Speaker 1: No.

1411
01:11:38,260 --> 01:11:40,440
Speaker 2: Left the others. Like, no, these are just the ones,

1412
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:43,920
Speaker 2: even Athanasius in his festival letter 365, when he describes

1413
01:11:43,960 --> 01:11:46,000
Speaker 2: the gospel, he says, these were the ones handed down.

1414
01:11:46,300 --> 01:11:47,870
Speaker 2: He doesn't say these are the ones we voted on.

1415
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:49,769
Speaker 2: He doesn't say these are the ones that emerged from

1416
01:11:49,810 --> 01:11:53,090
Speaker 2: some sort of Bart Ehrman-like World Cup and the others

1417
01:11:53,110 --> 01:11:54,830
Speaker 2: were eliminated and burned. He's like, no, these are the

1418
01:11:54,910 --> 01:11:57,390
Speaker 2: ones that were handed down. We just received and recognized them.

1419
01:11:57,689 --> 01:12:00,030
Speaker 2: So even he doesn't say we pick them. So anyway,

1420
01:12:00,370 --> 01:12:00,809
Speaker 2: I digress.

1421
01:12:01,130 --> 01:12:04,650
Speaker 1: No, it's a great answer. Your book, Apocryphal Gospels, it's excellent.

1422
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 1: It's really well done. The word you used captures it. Well,

1423
01:12:08,060 --> 01:12:09,500
Speaker 1: that it's sober minded.

1424
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:10,900
Speaker 2: Last question.

1425
01:12:11,640 --> 01:12:15,090
Speaker 1: What is doing a deep dive on these apocryphal gospels?

1426
01:12:15,229 --> 01:12:17,729
Speaker 1: What does it personally mean to you, if anything? Now

1427
01:12:17,770 --> 01:12:19,710
Speaker 1: that you're done looking back at it, what did you learn?

1428
01:12:19,729 --> 01:12:23,110
Speaker 1: How were you stretched? What's some of your takeaway from this?

1429
01:12:23,490 --> 01:12:27,939
Speaker 2: Yeah, this book is part of a broader, I think,

1430
01:12:28,180 --> 01:12:30,439
Speaker 2: if there is a coherence to my strategy, I think

1431
01:12:30,479 --> 01:12:32,880
Speaker 2: it's this. So I do a lot of work on

1432
01:12:32,900 --> 01:12:38,050
Speaker 2: the Septuagint, textual criticism, gospels, apocryphal gospels now apparently. And

1433
01:12:38,070 --> 01:12:39,370
Speaker 2: so on Dead Sea Scrolls and all that kind of,

1434
01:12:39,390 --> 01:12:42,469
Speaker 2: I do a lot of random things. But the thread

1435
01:12:42,689 --> 01:12:46,990
Speaker 2: is I want my students at the seminary, my churchgoers

1436
01:12:47,030 --> 01:12:50,150
Speaker 2: at the church where I serve to have a robust

1437
01:12:50,450 --> 01:12:53,880
Speaker 2: doctrine of scripture. Amen. I think it's very easy to

1438
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:58,200
Speaker 2: have a flimsy doctrine of scripture that it's like, well,

1439
01:12:58,220 --> 01:12:59,700
Speaker 2: I believe the Bible is the word of God because

1440
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:01,720
Speaker 2: my pastor tells me to. It's like, well, that's a

1441
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:06,180
Speaker 2: good start. But you read one blog post by a

1442
01:13:06,340 --> 01:13:10,260
Speaker 2: Bart Ehrman. that makes some interesting and valid points, and

1443
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:13,220
Speaker 2: it's bad. It starts to unravel very quickly. So I

1444
01:13:13,280 --> 01:13:19,330
Speaker 2: want folks to have a thoroughly well-informed understanding of the

1445
01:13:19,350 --> 01:13:22,030
Speaker 2: Old and New Testaments. So this project sort of fits

1446
01:13:22,070 --> 01:13:25,070
Speaker 2: with that, that it's very easy to critique the Gospels

1447
01:13:25,150 --> 01:13:27,130
Speaker 2: if you start with the Gospel of Thomas. And so

1448
01:13:27,150 --> 01:13:31,320
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, respond to that with fear because you're

1449
01:13:31,340 --> 01:13:34,480
Speaker 2: afraid you're going to somehow shipwreck your faith. I get

1450
01:13:34,540 --> 01:13:36,839
Speaker 2: that response, but I don't think that's the right response.

1451
01:13:36,860 --> 01:13:38,940
Speaker 2: I think the better response is to do the homework

1452
01:13:39,800 --> 01:13:42,040
Speaker 2: and to realize, wait a second, okay, Gospel of Thomas exists,

1453
01:13:42,930 --> 01:13:45,849
Speaker 2: and that's okay. And I can engage with it in

1454
01:13:45,939 --> 01:13:49,630
Speaker 2: a fair-minded, critical way. And actually, for me, when I

1455
01:13:49,670 --> 01:13:51,950
Speaker 2: do that, and I've done this with whether it's the

1456
01:13:51,970 --> 01:13:55,850
Speaker 2: Dead Sea Scrolls or Septuagint or what have you, all

1457
01:13:55,870 --> 01:13:57,530
Speaker 2: of my work on that kind of stuff has actually

1458
01:13:57,630 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 2: strengthened my understanding of the inspiration of God's Word. in

1459
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:05,040
Speaker 2: the books that we receive as canon, not the other

1460
01:14:05,060 --> 01:14:08,480
Speaker 2: way around. And I want people to have that kind

1461
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:12,269
Speaker 2: of same experience. They just need, I think, in my opinion,

1462
01:14:12,310 --> 01:14:15,050
Speaker 2: a guide that is reliable, like someone to hold their

1463
01:14:15,070 --> 01:14:18,010
Speaker 2: hand and say, let's actually look at the data. Let's

1464
01:14:18,030 --> 01:14:20,010
Speaker 2: not pretend it doesn't exist, but let's not twist it either.

1465
01:14:20,750 --> 01:14:22,810
Speaker 2: Let's sober mindedly go through and say, okay, where do

1466
01:14:22,830 --> 01:14:25,250
Speaker 2: we land? Okay, it sure does look like Matthew, Mark, Luke,

1467
01:14:25,270 --> 01:14:27,750
Speaker 2: and John are the actual gospels, right? And that's where

1468
01:14:27,770 --> 01:14:29,710
Speaker 2: we find the real Jesus, not in these others. So

1469
01:14:30,729 --> 01:14:33,560
Speaker 2: for me, it's been, I don't know, more faith-building than

1470
01:14:33,660 --> 01:14:37,380
Speaker 2: the opposite. Oh, good. And I hope that's kind of

1471
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 2: what motivates me to kind of get into these topics

1472
01:14:39,740 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 2: as like a Reformed Presbyterian, right? It's kind of weird,

1473
01:14:42,580 --> 01:14:46,550
Speaker 2: but I think people need to actually... If our doctrine

1474
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:49,110
Speaker 2: of Scripture is true, like for me, as articulated in

1475
01:14:49,170 --> 01:14:52,170
Speaker 2: the Westminster Confession of Faith as an example, or the

1476
01:14:52,229 --> 01:14:54,160
Speaker 2: London Baptist Confession, whatever it is that people subscribe to,

1477
01:14:54,930 --> 01:14:56,809
Speaker 2: if it's true, then it must be able to hold

1478
01:14:56,870 --> 01:14:59,210
Speaker 2: up to the scrutiny of the data. Amen. And so...

1479
01:14:59,650 --> 01:15:01,330
Speaker 2: Let's roll up our sleeves and look at the data.

1480
01:15:01,570 --> 01:15:02,450
Speaker 2: That's kind of what motivates me.

1481
01:15:02,790 --> 01:15:05,410
Speaker 1: I'm an apologist, and I've done my doctoral work on

1482
01:15:05,450 --> 01:15:07,550
Speaker 1: the death of the apostles that intersects with this a

1483
01:15:07,590 --> 01:15:09,400
Speaker 1: little bit. But I'm more of a generalist, so I've

1484
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:12,600
Speaker 1: read some in this area. And your book to me

1485
01:15:12,740 --> 01:15:16,420
Speaker 1: felt like, okay, we've kind of grown up. We've moved

1486
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:18,760
Speaker 1: in terms of the debate and the discussion. We've moved

1487
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 1: from reacting and defending against the Da Vinci Code and

1488
01:15:21,979 --> 01:15:24,860
Speaker 1: the gospel of Judas and the secret gospel of Mary

1489
01:15:24,880 --> 01:15:26,780
Speaker 1: and just going, you know, let's just look at this

1490
01:15:26,860 --> 01:15:30,380
Speaker 1: sober-minded world. We have nothing to be afraid of. And actually,

1491
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:33,540
Speaker 1: when we do this, it will strengthen our faith. And

1492
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:35,820
Speaker 1: you made some points in this that I had not

1493
01:15:36,050 --> 01:15:39,070
Speaker 1: even considered myself before. So I recommend it as much

1494
01:15:39,130 --> 01:15:41,070
Speaker 1: as I can for a book of its kind. It's

1495
01:15:41,090 --> 01:15:43,370
Speaker 1: very readable. BH Academic.

1496
01:15:44,150 --> 01:15:44,770
Speaker 2: Easy to read.

1497
01:15:44,970 --> 01:15:47,090
Speaker 1: Easy to follow. Has some depth to it. You include

1498
01:15:47,110 --> 01:15:49,930
Speaker 1: some stories in there. So for those still with us

1499
01:15:50,010 --> 01:15:51,769
Speaker 1: in this conversation, say, you know what? I want to

1500
01:15:51,810 --> 01:15:54,880
Speaker 1: find out more about these gospels. I'd highly recommend it.

1501
01:15:55,020 --> 01:15:57,019
Speaker 2: And a lot of pretty pictures, too. At least I

1502
01:15:57,040 --> 01:15:59,959
Speaker 2: think they're pretty. Not as pretty as– Well, the manuscripts

1503
01:15:59,979 --> 01:16:00,740
Speaker 2: and so forth, yeah.

1504
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:04,130
Speaker 1: Holding this in hand is pretty cool. That's fun that

1505
01:16:04,150 --> 01:16:06,070
Speaker 1: you gave me this. But you have some great images

1506
01:16:06,130 --> 01:16:08,290
Speaker 1: so people can kind of see it for themselves within

1507
01:16:08,330 --> 01:16:12,270
Speaker 1: the book. So it's well done. Folks, thanks for tracking

1508
01:16:12,310 --> 01:16:14,269
Speaker 1: with us. Make sure you hit subscribe. We've got some

1509
01:16:14,370 --> 01:16:17,140
Speaker 1: other conversations like this coming up. Let us know if

1510
01:16:17,180 --> 01:16:19,920
Speaker 1: you want more of a deep dive on these apocryphal gospels,

1511
01:16:19,979 --> 01:16:21,679
Speaker 1: if it was helpful to do like a whole series

1512
01:16:21,700 --> 01:16:23,830
Speaker 1: of on each one of these and break them down,

1513
01:16:23,870 --> 01:16:26,390
Speaker 1: like Gospel of Judas, Gospel of Thomas in some depth,

1514
01:16:26,950 --> 01:16:28,880
Speaker 1: let us know, and we could circle back and do

1515
01:16:28,910 --> 01:16:31,100
Speaker 1: that in a way that would hopefully be helpful. Greg,

1516
01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:32,800
Speaker 1: this is a treat, man.

1517
01:16:32,939 --> 01:16:34,719
Speaker 2: Thank you. Thanks for coming out to the East Coast.

1518
01:16:34,900 --> 01:16:36,979
Speaker 1: Yeah, if I still had some games since you're 6'6,

1519
01:16:37,320 --> 01:16:39,040
Speaker 1: I'd challenge you, but I'm retired, man.

1520
01:16:39,080 --> 01:16:41,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'm retired from basketball, too. You did as well.

1521
01:16:42,200 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 2: Ankles can't handle it anymore. Oh, man.

1522
01:16:44,600 --> 01:16:45,360
Speaker 1: Well, this is fun.

1523
01:16:45,460 --> 01:16:45,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you.

1524
01:16:46,360 --> 01:16:49,000
Speaker 1: Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

1525
01:16:49,100 --> 01:16:52,000
Speaker 1: follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

1526
01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:54,380
Speaker 1: in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge

1527
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:57,240
Speaker 1: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

1528
01:16:57,260 --> 01:17:01,610
Speaker 1: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

1529
01:17:01,830 --> 01:17:04,910
Speaker 1: review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

1530
01:17:05,070 --> 01:17:08,880
Speaker 1: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

1531
01:17:08,979 --> 01:17:13,260
Speaker 1: where we have on-campus and online programs in apologetics, spiritual formation,

1532
01:17:13,340 --> 01:17:15,900
Speaker 1: marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would

1533
01:17:15,939 --> 01:17:18,880
Speaker 1: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and

1534
01:17:18,939 --> 01:17:21,720
Speaker 1: defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you

1535
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:23,340
Speaker 1: when the next episode drops.