1 00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Here thousands of 2 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: hours of Dennis's lectures, courses in classic radio programs, and 3 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 1: to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to Dennisprager dot com. 4 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: And here we are the Ultimate Issues Hour on the 5 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: Dennis Prager Show. Hi you doing, everybody. This is the 6 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 2: hour each week devoted to some great issue of life 7 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: on the Dennis Prager Show. The issue today is the 8 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 2: magnificently large difference between being spiritual and being religious. Whenever 9 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 2: somebody tells me, well, I'm not in any religion, you know, 10 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 2: I don't believe in any organized religion, but I'm a 11 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 2: very spiritual person, I'm sure that the person is sincere 12 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: and may very well be a wonderful person. That's given. 13 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 2: But it's a meaningless statement to me, meaningless, and by 14 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 2: and large, by and large there are exceptions. I think 15 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 2: it is really more or less a narcissistic cop out 16 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 2: from the demands of being in a religion. I'm spiritual, 17 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: I'm not. You know, I don't care about organized religion, 18 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: but I'm a very spiritual person. Means that I do 19 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: what I want, when I want, the way I want 20 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: I feel God and have a nice day. Now. If 21 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: you're one of those who regards yourself as spiritual and 22 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 2: not in an organized religion, not religious, and they are 23 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,919 Speaker 2: obviously not the same. That doesn't mean that religious people 24 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: should not be spiritual. They should, but I'm arguing that 25 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 2: spirituality without religion is highly suspect. One A. Praguer seven 26 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 2: seven six. If you're one of those who is spiritual 27 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: but not religious, give me a call and explain yourself 28 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 2: to me. You know I will treat you with great respect. 29 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: One eight Prager seven seven six one eight p R 30 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 2: A g e r seven seven six. It by and 31 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,679 Speaker 2: large to me when I hear that statement, I am spiritual, 32 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 2: but I am not religious, or I am not active 33 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 2: in any organized religion. I don't even know what they're 34 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: talking about. What does that mean that you see God 35 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: in trees? And I'm not being mocking at all at all, 36 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,359 Speaker 2: but I want to know what does it mean if 37 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 2: you are spiritual without any religion? What is your code book? 38 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 2: Moral codebook? To whom are you accountable for your or 39 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 2: behavior towards fellow human beings? Where do you get your 40 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 2: moral values from? If you're spiritual but you are not 41 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 2: involved in any religion. Where do all these things come from? 42 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: So I, I I it's a challenge to you. And 43 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: you may persuade me that it's a it's a good route, 44 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: but I don't think it is. And so let's begin 45 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: here with Jose Jose in Sacramento, California. Thank you for 46 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: calling Jose Dennis Prager, Well, thank you. 47 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was a Christian and I and I you know, 48 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 3: studied the Bible, but you know through different congregations that 49 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 3: I've been and I was a Catholic before. Uh, just 50 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 3: too many bounds in the churches. And now I just 51 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 3: kind of practice by myself. 52 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 2: Well wait, wait, wait, I'm sorry, practice what by yourself? 53 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: Just you know, being a being a good Christian or 54 00:04:19,159 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 3: not really a Christian, not not based off of the 55 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 3: religious part of it, because that's where things get confusing. 56 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,439 Speaker 3: Just establishing a relationship with God himself. 57 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,999 Speaker 2: Okay, Now, the God that you are have established a 58 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 2: relationship with is to be found where if I wanted 59 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:40,039 Speaker 2: to also establish a relationship with this God? Where would 60 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 2: I where would I look to to learn about this 61 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: God of the Bible. Well, but the Bible has come 62 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: to us through religious people. 63 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: It came through us through the apostles who wrote the scriptures, 64 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: and then it was tooken by you know, the Catholics, 65 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 3: the Romans, and then you know, then they took some books, 66 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 3: perverted some of the things. I believe women have a 67 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 3: right to be out there preaching the Gospel as well. 68 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,160 Speaker 3: I believe a lot of different things. And that's all 69 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 3: based on you know, convictions and and just you know, 70 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 3: things that you know God has you know, shown me. 71 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, but how do you know that God has shown 72 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: you anything? Do you do you I'm not saying he hasn't, 73 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 2: but how do you know that? 74 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 3: The way I know is because one time I went 75 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 3: to a non denominational Christian church in Hawaii Pro Harbor, 76 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 3: and that was the first time I've ever been to 77 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 3: anything like that. I used to be Catholic, like I said, 78 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 3: and I was. I had raised my hand to get saved, 79 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: and I didn't know what I was getting into. But 80 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 3: then I got you know, they prayed over me, and 81 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 3: all of a sudden, I started speaking in tongues and 82 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:55,280 Speaker 3: it was just like like I knew that the words 83 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 3: that were coming out of my mouth were straight from 84 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 3: my internet. 85 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,479 Speaker 2: Yeah. But you but you're not even part of one 86 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: of those churches anymore. It's it's really, now, why why 87 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 2: would I be wrong in saying that your religion is Joseism. 88 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 3: Because it's not. I established a relationship with God. 89 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, but but nobody is monitoring that relationship. It's just 90 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,080 Speaker 2: it's just what you think it is. No, there's no community, 91 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: there's no text, there's nothing. 92 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 3: I fellowship with different people, but I do not put 93 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 3: myself in any congregation or anything or any church establishment 94 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 3: because of the people. There's so much conflict within. I 95 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 3: don't know. 96 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, but all right, so hear me out, Jose, and 97 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: thank you for your honesty and openness. Jose, in my opinion, 98 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 2: has taken the easy way out. Every one of us 99 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 2: involved in an organized religion knows that religion's limitations. It's 100 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,520 Speaker 2: filled with human beings. So immediately there is going to 101 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 2: be conflict in politics in every church and in every synagogue. 102 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 2: That is inevitable, because we are human beings. That is inevitable. 103 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: The pastor will be flawed, the priest will be flawed, 104 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 2: the rabbi will be flawed. That is another part of it. 105 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: But at least you have before you a community of 106 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 2: people that can monitor one another that you have to 107 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 2: work off. It's like saying I want to be alone. 108 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 2: I don't want a family because every family has conflict. 109 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: Every family has conflict, So why have a family. If 110 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 2: the issue is there is conflict, hypocrisy, conflict, all these 111 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 2: other things, then don't have a family. I'm arguing here 112 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: for organized religion as opposed to just spirituality. Without a 113 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: mediating group to monitor your quote unquote relationship with God, 114 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: how do you know that it isn't just a relationship 115 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 2: with yourself? And you've just thrown in the word God. 116 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: Now I'm not saying you know it. Even if you 117 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 2: have a community, a community could be deluded to I 118 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 2: acknowledge that, and there's no perfect answer. Also, my other 119 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: reaction to what jose said, well, he has taken the 120 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 2: texts of organized religion and then thrown away the religion. 121 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: These texts didn't come to us through disembodied or non 122 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:37,560 Speaker 2: organized religion people. The Old Testament came from the Jews. 123 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: The New Testament came from the followers of Jesus, Paul, 124 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 2: the Apostles. These people were all in an organized group. 125 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 2: Jews were Jews, and the followers of Christ were Christians. 126 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: And many of them were Jews, and most of them, 127 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 2: in fact, most of them were Jews. But whatever they were, 128 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 2: they were in an organized community. They didn't call themselves 129 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 2: spiritual without a community. So you've taken the text of 130 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 2: organized religions. You've taken the god of organized religions and 131 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: decided that you don't need the religions that gave you 132 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 2: that God. But then why do you accept that god? 133 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: You accept the God of an organized religion, but the 134 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 2: organized religion is now all of a sudden, it's wrong. 135 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 2: All right, let's go to some more challenges here, Atlanta, Georgia. Chris, Hello, Chris. 136 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 2: Dennis Prager, Hey Dennis. 137 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 4: Ever since I was a kid, I've always been against 138 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,480 Speaker 4: organized religion on a gut level. I just knew it 139 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 4: couldn't be it couldn't be right. And however I was, 140 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 4: I did believe there was a God, a higher power, 141 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 4: if you will. And the way I really became spiritual 142 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 4: is I've been listening to people being interviewed who had 143 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 4: near death experiences and reading about them, and almost all 144 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 4: of them say the same story. They go to a 145 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 4: loving light and they they have this panoramic life review 146 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 4: and in an instant. They live their entire lives, but 147 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 4: in the shoes of the people they interacted with. So 148 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 4: the guy that had, you know, they cut off in traffic, 149 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 4: they felt his anger and his frustration as a result 150 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 4: of your actions. The person you know you let the 151 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 4: help me hand to when you need to help you 152 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 4: felt that good feeling. 153 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 2: All right, hold on, we'll be back in a moment. 154 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,439 Speaker 2: Ultimate Issues our Dennis Prager's show. 155 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,719 Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom. We'll continue right after this. 156 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. 157 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 2: We have a code here on the board when even 158 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: takes your calls. If you disagree, the letter D comes up. 159 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: And right now we have six lines at any given 160 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 2: time that can be called. Line one says D, Line 161 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: two says D, SODA's line three, line four says D, 162 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 2: line five says D, and SODA's line six. Which is 163 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: good because I want to speak to you folks who 164 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 2: disagree with me in general and certainly on this issue. 165 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: This is the Ultimate Issues hour on the Dennis Prager Show. 166 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: Every week at this time some great issue, and this 167 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 2: one is spirituality versus religion. I am, I read and 168 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: I meet people all the time who claim to be 169 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 2: and I trust them. I don't When I use the 170 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 2: word claim, it is not disparaging who say that they 171 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 2: are spiritual but not religious, or spiritual but not involved 172 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 2: in a religion. I am extremely suspicious of that claim, 173 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 2: because spirituality without religious community, without religious guidelines, without religious texts, 174 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: can too easily be Hey, I do what I think, 175 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:07,239 Speaker 2: I do what I feel, and we go back to Atlanta, 176 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 2: Georgia and Chris, So, Chris, that's my fear that it's 177 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 2: almost like saying, I'm very mathematical, but I don't have 178 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 2: any math that I subscribe to you with me. 179 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 4: Not really. I subscribe to a way of life, if 180 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 4: you will, I guess. 181 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 2: And where is that come from? Where does that come from? 182 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 4: Well, the life review I talked about in feeling, what 183 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 4: you put out and what you cause other people to feel, 184 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 4: has definitely reshaped my life. The next time, you know, 185 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 4: you know, I go to cut someone off in traffic, 186 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 4: or the next time I get mad at somebody, you 187 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 4: want to get back at them. 188 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's that's wonderful. And I say that with 189 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 2: all sincerity. But let me ask you some of the 190 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 2: hard questions. What does that tell you about about war? 191 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: What is your spirituality? What is its guideline on war? 192 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 4: It tells me that you need a strong justification to 193 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 4: inflict pain on other people? 194 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: And where, okay, and where did you get that? You 195 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 2: got that from? Where? Well? 196 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know if necessarily you can apply 197 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 4: it to every you know, have an application for every 198 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 4: part of See. 199 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: I happen to agree with you. You do need a 200 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: strong moral justification for a war. I happened to agree 201 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 2: with you. But I got that from a value system. 202 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 2: I didn't get that just from my innerds. Knowing that 203 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 2: I'm in spiritual touch with the universe, I think that 204 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: you don't give credit to the value system that gave 205 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 2: you these values. 206 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 4: But Dennis, you brought up war with all due respect, 207 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:55,959 Speaker 4: I mean, I assume you support this Iraq war, and 208 00:13:56,320 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 4: I don't think that it was justified at all. So 209 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 4: your system has led you astray in my opinions. 210 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 2: Well, your system has led you astray in my opinion. 211 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 2: So tell me, do you what was the last war 212 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,679 Speaker 2: your system would have justified. 213 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 4: I think you should only go to war if someone's 214 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 4: barreling down your borders. 215 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: So, in other words, so if somebody is committing genocide 216 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 2: in his society against his own people. We should not 217 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 2: go to war. 218 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, what does Christianity or Judaism say? 219 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: Well, why wait, wait, answer me. I know what they say. 220 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: I'll tell you exactly what they say. Do not stand 221 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: by the bloodshed of your neighbor. It's a major dictum 222 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 2: that is in the Bible. So that if there is 223 00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 2: genocide in another civilization, in another society, and I have 224 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 2: the means to stop it, then of course I should 225 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 2: use it. So that's why I was afraid of the 226 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: narcissism of spirituality. Unless they're about to attack me, I 227 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 2: don't make any war. No war. So if Paul Pott 228 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: is exterminating a third of his people, if Hitler is 229 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 2: exterminating the Jews, if Stalin is exterminating the Ukrainians, we uh, 230 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 2: we just stay spiritual, don't we? Don't these people? That's 231 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 2: my worry. All right. I'm glad you called though, Chris. 232 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. I'm sure you reflect a lot of 233 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 2: people's views. And we'll go to Dallas, Dallas, Texas. Joey, Hello, 234 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 2: Joe Dennis Prager. 235 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 5: Dennis, how you doing well? 236 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: Thank you? 237 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 5: Good? One line I took away from a grave man 238 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 5: in actually Alcoholics Anonymous, it was religion is for people 239 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 5: who don't want to go to hell, and spirituality is 240 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 5: for people who've been to hell and don't want to 241 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 5: go back. And that's proven especially true in my life. 242 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 5: I grew up in an extremely religious home. My grandmother 243 00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 5: was a ordained minister, and religion in my youth was 244 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 5: basically guiding people, including myself, towards a first hand relationship 245 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 5: with God. And I believe that's true. Most people, in 246 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 5: my experience go to church that have no spiritual connection. 247 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 5: They just go because that's the way they were RAI. 248 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 5: This is the way they see Uh, it's the way 249 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 5: they see. 250 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 2: Their family getting How do you how do you know 251 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 2: that they don't have a spiritual connection? Who are you 252 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 2: to judge? 253 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,360 Speaker 5: I could speak from a just personal experience meanings some 254 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 5: of mind. 255 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 2: Well, and what does spiritual connection mean? 256 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 5: The spiritual connection is an actual Uh. It's where church 257 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 5: quits being about going in the ceremony and the ritual 258 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 5: and starts being about an actual relationship and an interpersonal 259 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 5: sense between you and God. 260 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: What does that mean? How do I know? How do 261 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 2: you know if the guy next to you at church, 262 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 2: has one or not? 263 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 5: A conversation asks some people say, well, I don't get 264 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 5: anything out of going to church, even people who are 265 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 5: you know, they're there weekly. 266 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 2: So wait, wait, I don't understand you. See you have 267 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 2: you have a very harsh judgment of your fellow human 268 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 2: being based with your spirituality. Doesn't speak well for your spirituality, Joe, Sure, 269 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 2: I mean you know you know that the average guy 270 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 2: next to you at church doesn't have a relationship with God. 271 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,359 Speaker 2: Is there for I don't know? So why is he 272 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,160 Speaker 2: there because he wants to show off? 273 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 5: No, he's sitting there striving for that personal relationship with God. 274 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 5: And he may have a personal relationship, but not. 275 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 2: If maybe he wants a personal relationship with other people 276 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 2: who are fellow believers. Sure, and he knows that the 277 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 2: church can do a lot more good for a poor people, 278 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 2: let's say, than individual spiritual people do. 279 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 5: Sure, absolutely, and that's fine. I think that being a 280 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 5: religious person is very it's easy to do without spirituality. 281 00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 5: It's easy just to go through the pa. 282 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 2: Oh, I think it's I think it's far easier to 283 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:03,640 Speaker 2: be spiritual without religion than to be religious religious without spirituality. Really, yeah, 284 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 2: of course it means nothing. It's effortless. Hello, I'm spiritual. 285 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 2: I feel God don't bother me with having any obligations 286 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: to a community or to a text or to a code. 287 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 5: I think that comes down to the individual person I was. 288 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 5: I grew up in a Crusian faith. I still consider myself 289 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 5: to be Christian, but from basically the last twenty years 290 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 5: of my life, I don't consider myself to have been 291 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:29,440 Speaker 5: spiritual or spiritual Christian because there was just going through 292 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 5: the motions. It wasn't ritual. 293 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: It was everyone well, you know, even the motions. Thing 294 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 2: I happen to like motions. I'm a promotion man. Okay, 295 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: I go through the motions on the highway of driving safely. 296 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 2: My heart isn't in it. I rather speed. We'll be 297 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 2: back in a moment. 298 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 299 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. 300 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 2: You're listening to the Dennis Prager Show. This is the 301 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 2: Ultimate Issues Hour, the hour devoted to some great issue 302 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 2: of life. And I am challenging those of you. And 303 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 2: there are many, many, many many, both in my listening 304 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 2: audience and in the society generally. Who say that they 305 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:18,160 Speaker 2: are spiritual but not religious, and that is an important distinction, 306 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 2: and it's an honest one, Dennis or whoever you're talking to. 307 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 2: I am. I am a very spiritual person, but I'm 308 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,680 Speaker 2: not involved in any religion I am. I am personally 309 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 2: suspicious of that because religion provides you with a community, 310 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 2: with a text, with a way of objectively, at least 311 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 2: by communal standards, assessing your behavior. It forces you to 312 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 2: be responsible for the continuity of a value system. Where 313 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 2: a spirituality is this is how I feel about God, 314 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,439 Speaker 2: or I feel about nature, or I feel about what 315 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 2: will happen to me after I die, and then and 316 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 2: that's it. It's extremely and even among good people, it 317 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that they're not good. They are very fine. Look, 318 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 2: they are fine. Atheists, I'm not talking about your goodness, 319 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: but it is it is rather self centered by definition. 320 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: It is me and God, me and the spirits, me 321 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 2: and nature, whatever it is. Your definition of spirituality is alrighty, 322 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 2: And let's go to some more of your calls. Everybody 323 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: still disagrees, and that's good. I have no problem with that. 324 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 2: But maybe we'll get one person who agrees, just maybe, maybe, 325 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 2: maybe it's okay, alrighty, and let's go to Kent in Hercules, California. 326 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 2: Good morning, Hi Kent. 327 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 6: Hey there. Yeah, being spiritual to me is having a 328 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 6: desire to find and join with the divine and the sacred, 329 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 6: whereas being religious is following the traditional recipe. And a 330 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:02,360 Speaker 6: person who is religious but not spiritual, as someone who 331 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 6: goes to church does the rituals, that has no real 332 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 6: internal effort to seek the sacred, and they're completely uninspiring, 333 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 6: where the person who follows a religion and makes a 334 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 6: sincere internal effort is both religious and spiritual, and they 335 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,479 Speaker 6: are inspired. These people are generally inspiring to be around. 336 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 6: And people do choose religions according to feelings, so they 337 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 6: are also based on feelings. And I have a certain 338 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 6: level of suspectus there too, and the same. 339 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, there is a certain level of that. I agree 340 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: with you. There's no perfect answer to my question. But 341 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 2: you have invalidated those of you were spiritual and not religious, 342 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 2: have invalidated all of the standards by which a community 343 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: can judge what is right and what is wrong. 344 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 6: I would say no, because like I would call myself 345 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 6: among that, but I don't invalidate In fact, I look 346 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 6: at religions for clues, because you know, these religions are 347 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 6: based upon people in history who have had experience, who 348 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 6: have been touched but by the divine, or so it seems. 349 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 2: See when you say the divine, is it the divine 350 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: that I understand? Or is it the divine that Kent 351 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 2: has invented? 352 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 6: The divine that these people describe? They describe it as 353 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 6: divine something sacred? 354 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: Wait, which people, the people in the Bible, Well. 355 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 6: Those plus like some people out of the east. You 356 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 6: know some Buddhists. 357 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: No, no, no, Buddhists don't speak about the divine. Well they don't, 358 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 2: they don't, they don't, they don't. 359 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 6: Okay, that's that's my term. Okay, they're pointed to something great. 360 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 2: Okay, Well so then I don't. I don't know what 361 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 2: this is. Where do I? How do other than Kent? 362 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 2: How does Dennis know the divine that Kent knows? 363 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 6: Well, I don't. I don't know these people. 364 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 2: Then how do I know it is in Kent worshiping Kent? 365 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 6: Oh you don't. 366 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 2: Okay, Well you're an honest man, and well that's put that. 367 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: But at least now you know I am suspicious of it. 368 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: The divine. What is the divine that that that that 369 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: Kent is talking about. It is the divine that Kent 370 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: is talking about. And the issue it's certainly not shareable. 371 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 2: You can't share it. One thing about religion is I 372 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 2: can share the divine with you. Kent's divine is Kent's divine. 373 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: And again, folks, I'm not assession you as people. God 374 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: knows there are a lot of crappy people inside of 375 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,640 Speaker 2: organized religion, of lovely people outside of it. But I'm 376 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 2: telling you why I am suspicious of the term. That's all. 377 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,160 Speaker 2: Doesn't mean you're a bad person, not making anything, even 378 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 2: suggesting that. All right, one a Praguer seven seven six, 379 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 2: I like this one. Since no religion is perfectly I 380 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: prefer to create my own. That's awesome, you know what. 381 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 2: I love your honesty, folks, Even if the point is 382 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 2: a little silly, I still love honesty. We'll be back 383 00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 2: with that and other points disagreeing with me on Ultimate 384 00:23:59,000 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: Issues Hour. 385 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this. 386 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom. 387 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: See the Ultimate Issues Hour on The Dennis Prager Show. 388 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:19,239 Speaker 2: And the Ultimate Issue today is religion. Versus spirituality. Not 389 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 2: that religious people can't be spiritual, but those who are 390 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 2: spiritual without religion. Uh, there's there. It's it's I think 391 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 2: what you've done is I think you've taken from an 392 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,239 Speaker 2: institution the side of the institution does not have to 393 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 2: exist any longer, and that it would be. It would 394 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 2: be for example, I guess it's not a perfect analogy, 395 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 2: but it would be as if one were to attend 396 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 2: a university with all its flaws. And you know, I 397 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: think they're very flawed. All of our nearly all of 398 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 2: our places of learning are flawed. And to say, but 399 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: from now on, there will be no no more formal education. 400 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 2: I will decide what is to be learned, if anything, 401 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 2: and and I will not I will not perpetuate any 402 00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 2: institutions of learning religion unless it's a bad religion. Religion 403 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:26,400 Speaker 2: is a flawed but necessary institution for the conveyance of values, 404 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 2: of religious and moral values. Without it, how do you 405 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 2: convey it to the next generation. This is how Daddy 406 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:40,879 Speaker 2: feels spiritual, this is how Mommy feels spiritual. So with 407 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: all their flaws, that's why I'm arguing for religious life. 408 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: Let's go to Earl in Minneapolis. Hello Earl of Minneapolis, 409 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: Dennis Prager. 410 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 7: Hi, Hi Dennis. You know, I actually agree with with 411 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 7: your basic premise, But I'm curious about one thing. I 412 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 7: don't want to put words in your mouth, but I 413 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 7: recall hearing you say that you classify yourself as observant, 414 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 7: but as not accepting Rabbinic Judaism. 415 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 2: Well, I accept Rabbinic Judaism. I don't accept that it 416 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 2: can't be changed. That's the only difference. That's the only 417 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 2: difference between me and Orthodoxy. 418 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 7: But isn't that something that Rabbinic Judaism itself would have 419 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 7: to tell you. 420 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 2: No, Rabbinic Judaism, Rabbinic Judaism was never founded, not to change. 421 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 2: It's fossilized because of a whole host of sociological and 422 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 2: psychological and human frailty reasons. But it was it was 423 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 2: never meant to be static. As one great Jewish thinker 424 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:46,959 Speaker 2: put it, he said, his fellow Orthodox Jews, and he 425 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,959 Speaker 2: was Orthodox, who was it? There was a great thinker 426 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 2: became Charaites of the oral law. In other words, they 427 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 2: did to the oral law what Charatites did to the 428 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,880 Speaker 2: written law, which said it can't develop any further anyway. 429 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 2: The only reason I'm not going on with that earl 430 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 2: is because it's going to be a little less oteric 431 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: for most of the audience. But I would love to 432 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 2: continue the dialogue. It's one of my favorite subjects in 433 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 2: the world. Thank you. And anyway, I call myself religious, 434 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 2: and I am, but acknowledge for the sake of the 435 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 2: Orthodox that I'm not Orthodox is I don't want anybody 436 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 2: to pin any bad things they think of me on 437 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 2: the Orthodox. One A Praguer seven seven six And let's 438 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 2: go to a Cleveland and Janet. Hello, Janet, Dennis Prager. 439 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 8: Hi, Dennis, how are you? 440 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 2: I'm well, thank you good. 441 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 8: This is a little bit off. I think I agree 442 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 8: with your premise. Also, my problem is I belong to 443 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 8: a church that doesn't exist anymore, and that's the old 444 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 8: Catholic Church pre Vaticant two. And I just over the 445 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,239 Speaker 8: years they seem to have changed the many things, and 446 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 8: I've I'm what you call fallen away Catholic or what 447 00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 8: the church calls a fallen away. 448 00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean the things that were changed, for example, 449 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 2: the Tridentine mass. Is that what you're referring. 450 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,919 Speaker 8: To, Well, that's one thing, yeah, all right, but there are. 451 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: You can have. You can find churches that in fact 452 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,160 Speaker 2: still have the Latin Mass. 453 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,200 Speaker 8: Well where I live, I don't. I don't know of one. 454 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, but all right, okay, but then you you should 455 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 2: not fall away. That's my point. Those of you who 456 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 2: have problems within your religion, but who who claim to 457 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 2: be truthful to it, you need you're not alone, and 458 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 2: you gather with others who feel like you, and you 459 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 2: make and you make a new one. By the way, 460 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: I have no problem with with with variations on a 461 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 2: theme within a given religion. That's how religions have begun anyway. 462 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,960 Speaker 2: They've all been spawned by a prior affirmation of something. 463 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: It's it's to do it yourself spirituality that I'm speaking 464 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: about here. I'm not asking everybody to be orthodox, capital 465 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: or small O in their religion, but I am asking 466 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 2: people to understand that without religion, all of your spiritual 467 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 2: values and certainly the moral values that religion brought to 468 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 2: you in which you tend to embrace, have no vehicle 469 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 2: to be carried to the next generation. Okay, let's go 470 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: to Lakewood, Colorado. Joe Joe Dennis Prager high hies he might. 471 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 9: Be a hybrid a greed. Disagree kind of call. As 472 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 9: I think about your conversations with other people. The scriptures 473 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 9: are the word of God. Religions are the work of man, 474 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 9: and as far as I'm concerned, Dennis, Yeah. 475 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 2: But it is religion that gave us the scriptures. 476 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 9: And I go to church. I am a Christian. I 477 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 9: attend to Christian church, but I changed my church in 478 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 9: a heartbeat. I think the Christianity, Catholicism, and Judaism have 479 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 9: all perverted God's word to the point. 480 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 2: Of soho who has God's word? Pure scriptures? Yeah? But 481 00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 2: scripture as understood by Joe. 482 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 9: Look, I do tabernacle with other people, but let me 483 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 9: give you an example. 484 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 2: No, but if you, I'm sure, do you know twenty 485 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 2: other people who think exactly about the scriptures as you do? 486 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 9: I can only find them on the internet, Dennis, and 487 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 9: I don't consider that. 488 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: Okay, So you know, I don't mean this in any 489 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: way insulting. It's not my style. But isn't it a 490 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 2: little arrogant to think you and a handful of other 491 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 2: people on the internet know the scriptures better than anybody 492 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: in Catholicism, Protestantism or Judaism. 493 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 9: Well you took a leap there. I don't know scriptures 494 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 9: as well as many people. 495 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: No, no, no, understand them. That's what you're But that's 496 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 2: what you're claiming. 497 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 9: No, it's not. 498 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 2: You said you accept scripture but not religion because all 499 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: the religions have perverted it. That means that Joe has 500 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 2: a better grasp of the scriptures than all the Protestant churches, 501 00:30:55,120 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 2: Catholic churches, and Jewish synagogues. I mean, Joe, that's a 502 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 2: pretty big, uh dose of self confidence. Forgive me, I 503 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 2: got to take a break. We return. Final segment of 504 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 2: the Ultimate Issues Hour coming up. All right, everybody, you're 505 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 2: listening to the Dennis Prager Show, The Ultimate Issues Hour. 506 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 2: The Ultimate issue today has been my argument that being 507 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 2: spiritual without religion is very suspect. Religion is the is 508 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 2: the thing you got most of your values from, and 509 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: then you say, well, we can chuck it, don't need it, 510 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 2: don't need the community because it's flawed. Whereas your spirituality 511 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 2: is not flawed. That's really something that's more than I mean, 512 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 2: I'm pretty self confident, but boy, I would like that claim. 513 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 2: Oh boy, my spirituality is perfect. But Judaism, Protestantism Catholicism religious, 514 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 2: They're flawed, Dennis, isn't. I can't can't go that route. 515 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 2: My friends Brett might, however, Brett and Burbank California High 516 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 2: Dennis Praeger, How you doing, Dennis, I'm well, thanks. 517 00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 9: Well, I'm kind of a mutt in that mutt of religion, 518 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 9: in that I was brought up Methodists, went to a 519 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 9: Catholic school, went to a Baptist school. Yet I'm a 520 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 9: geologist and firmly believe in evolution. 521 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 2: So what then, a lot of religious people believe in evolution. 522 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 2: They don't believe in evolution as unguided in any way 523 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: by God or or godless. You see. But there's no 524 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 2: I don't see any problem. I think there are problems 525 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 2: with evolution that are that are that are scientifically based. 526 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: Not I don't deny it, but I think there are 527 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 2: problems with it. But you can be religious and believe 528 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 2: that things. 529 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 9: Evolved, right, I understand that. But when I you know, 530 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 9: with all the churches I have gone to, the part 531 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 9: I find difficult is finding one that actually will discuss 532 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 9: evolution in the context and with when man? 533 00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: But why? Why? Is that? That's not the purpose of religion? 534 00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 2: The purpose of religion isn't to teach geology. You've got 535 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 2: that at college. Purpose of religionist's teach you why there 536 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 2: is a universe and how to live in it. 537 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 9: Yeah, but at what point you have to at some 538 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 9: point correlate when? If you believe in evolution, you have 539 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 9: to correlate at some point? When did man fall? Since 540 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 9: we've been around for twenty thirty thousand years? 541 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 2: Why, what is the Why is the question when of significance? 542 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: I wish we had more time on this. You're asking 543 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 2: questions that are not the province of religion. I've never 544 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 2: discussed geology with a minister, priest, or rabbi. That's not 545 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 2: what I go to them for. I don't talk geology 546 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 2: with my pediatrist. I don't talk pedietry with with my endocrinologist. 547 00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 2: You talk to religious experts about the meaning of life? 548 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 2: Why is there suffering? What does God want from us? 549 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,680 Speaker 2: What is the meaning of life? Geology does not give 550 00:34:14,720 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 2: you any of those answers, nor does spirituality religions do. 551 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 1: This has been timeless wisdom with Dennis Prager. Visit Dennisprager 552 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: dot com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures, courses, 553 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: in classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles.