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Speaker 1: Life Audio. You've worked on yourself, you've prayed, you've read

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Speaker 1: the books, you've practiced the spiritual disciplines, and you've tried

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Speaker 1: to become a healthier, more mature person, and yet some

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Speaker 1: of the same unhelpful patterns keep showing up. It can

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Speaker 1: leave you wondering why real change is so hard. We

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Speaker 1: live in a culture that rewards looking mature, authentic, and put-together.

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Speaker 1: Without realizing it, we can begin performing a version of

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Speaker 1: ourselves rather than becoming the people God is actually forming

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Speaker 1: us to be. But deep transformation can't be rushed. It

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Speaker 1: asks us to pay attention to what's happening beneath the surface,

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Speaker 1: to the places we'd rather avoid, and to the slow

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Speaker 1: work of becoming whole. Well, hi friends, I'm Jem Fadling,

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Speaker 1: and this is the Unhurried Living Podcast, where we inspire

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Speaker 1: you to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. Today,

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Speaker 1: Chuck DeGroat joins me to talk about the difference between

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Speaker 1: looking transformed and actually being transformed, and why who we're

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Speaker 1: becoming matters more than we may realize. After a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsor, we'll dive into our conversation for today.

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Speaker 1: As you're listening to this podcast, I'd love for you

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Speaker 1: to follow us. And if you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe.

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Speaker 1: It's absolutely free and it helps Unhurried Living be discovered

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Speaker 1: by more and more people. Thanks so much. Well, today

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Speaker 1: I'm talking with Chuck DeGroat and about his new book,

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Speaker 1: Who You're Becoming, the slow and courageous work of cultivating

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Speaker 1: character in a narcissistic age. Chuck is a licensed therapist,

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Speaker 1: spiritual director, author, and professor of pastoral care and Christian

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Speaker 1: spirituality at Western Theological Seminary. where he also serves as

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Speaker 1: the founding executive director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling Program.

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Speaker 1: He founded the Soul Care Collaborative, a network of practitioners

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Speaker 1: offering spiritually attuned and trauma-informed care, and his work has

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Speaker 1: focused particularly on abuse and trauma, pastoral and leadership health,

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Speaker 1: and the deeper journey of spiritual formation. In Who You're Becoming,

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Speaker 1: Chuck brings together psychology, neuroscience, theology, and spiritual formation to

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Speaker 1: explore something I think many of us are hungry for

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Speaker 1: not another quick fix or another way to try harder,

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Speaker 1: but the slow, courageous work of becoming whole. Enjoy my

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Speaker 1: conversation with Chuck. Well, Chuck DeGroat, welcome to the Unhurried

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Speaker 1: Living podcast and thanks for saying yes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so glad to be here, Jim. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we're going to just jump right in because

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Speaker 1: you're writing on a topic that we care very deeply

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Speaker 1: about here. And we're just going to touch on the

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Speaker 1: very light topic of character formation over time, right? I

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Speaker 1: wanted to just read a little sentence here from your opening,

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Speaker 1: because I noticed even from the beginning, I could sense

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Speaker 1: the passion in your writing. I could tell that you

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Speaker 1: cared deeply about this. And one of the things you

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Speaker 1: said is this, this is the reckoning. a painful but

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Speaker 1: necessary confrontation with all the waves we've traded, true character

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Speaker 1: for charisma, formation for information, communion for control, discipleship for display,

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Speaker 1: and transformation for techniques. It's time to embrace the slow,

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Speaker 1: costly work of character transformation. So, I love that. 100%

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Speaker 1: agree with you. Can we just start right there? Where's

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Speaker 1: the passion come from? Why is this important?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I've sensed a reckoning for

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Speaker 2: quite a while. I mean, I think Phyllis Tickle talked

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Speaker 2: about it years ago, 20 years ago now in the

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Speaker 2: great emergence, you know, that we were in a season

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Speaker 2: that she, she was quoting someone else, I think, but

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Speaker 2: she called it the rummage sale, the great rummage sale

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Speaker 2: that we're in right now, where Every 500 years, it

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Speaker 2: seems like we go through this season of reformation where,

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Speaker 2: you know, what was good and holy and spiritual, righteous, and,

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Speaker 2: you know, it now appears hollow and arms at times,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I've seen this over the years. I

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Speaker 2: began as a pastor in the mid-90s and been a pastor,

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Speaker 2: I've been a therapist, spiritual director for years. But I

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Speaker 2: even see with some of the really good resources that

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Speaker 2: have been developed that, in many respects, you know, we

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Speaker 2: have chosen, well, I mentioned it there, display over discipleship, right?

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Speaker 2: That there's a sense that we live in such a

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Speaker 2: performative culture that I remember you, yeah, I'm sure you

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Speaker 2: remember too, you know, back in the, late 90s when

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Speaker 2: i got into the enneagram no one it wasn't anywhere

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Speaker 2: you know i mean i had to go to used

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Speaker 2: bookstores to find like really old books that they're still

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Speaker 2: on my shelf and um and now there's everyone's an

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Speaker 2: enneagram expert there's a there's one podcast after another and

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Speaker 2: tests and and it and it people will use it

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Speaker 2: to say i know myself you know and that's the

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Speaker 2: part that i think is really hard you know i

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Speaker 2: i did my enneagram i know myself and uh i

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Speaker 2: don't think that was ever uh Enneagram was ever intended

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Speaker 2: to be used as that kind of quick fix self-awareness tool.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, we do that with the Enneagram. We do

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Speaker 2: that with so many different things. And I sometimes wonder

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Speaker 2: what it would look like for us to slow way

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Speaker 2: down and to treat our souls with the kind of

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Speaker 2: care and tenderness and delicacy and our journeys of transformation

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Speaker 2: with that same kind of care and gentleness. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It is just the human condition, isn't it, that we

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Speaker 1: want things to happen fast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And we want it to happen now when we want

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Speaker 1: it to happen in our way. And so, in a way,

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Speaker 1: you're inviting us to embrace the idea of patience and

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Speaker 1: or waiting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And that's rough in this culture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, I, yeah. And, and I think, you know, with that,

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Speaker 2: we're not quite aware of at times what prompts the churn.

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Speaker 2: This is part of why I wanted to get into,

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Speaker 2: you know, into this particular book. Maybe this is the

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Speaker 2: passion that you're sensing underneath it is, is because I

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Speaker 2: think particularly, you know, someone, I teach Christian spirituality at

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Speaker 2: a seminary and I've been involved in this work for

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Speaker 2: quite a while. And, I think that I've long invited

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Speaker 2: people into spaces of contemplative prayer and surrender. I was

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Speaker 2: living that. I think I tell some stories in there

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Speaker 2: of how I was leading people on silent retreats in

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Speaker 2: these spaces when my own nervous system was in chronic dysregulation.

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Speaker 2: And I think we do, we end up using really

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Speaker 2: good and important things, our therapy, our Enneagram, our spiritual direction,

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Speaker 2: our Stations of the Cross, our Ignatian exam, and our

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Speaker 2: contemplative prayer, we put these things on top of dysregulated

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Speaker 2: nervous systems, not aware that we're living in constant churn underneath,

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Speaker 2: you know. And I do think part of the reckoning

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Speaker 2: is an exposure of what's happening at the depths of

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Speaker 2: us and how we do, how it's not just about

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Speaker 2: new techniques or new behaviors, but how we have to

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Speaker 2: look at how we're living at a very foundational level

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Speaker 2: in this kind of churn.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I have experienced this personally because in the last

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Speaker 1: 10 years, as you well know, you've probably been at

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Speaker 1: the forefront of it. People are more now talking about

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Speaker 1: our nervous systems. And I just, it wasn't, it didn't

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Speaker 1: actually hit me until about 10 years ago. And I

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Speaker 1: realized I was doing the same thing. I mean, starting

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Speaker 1: an organization turned on a few knobs of adrenaline and

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Speaker 1: I didn't know what was happening except I'd find myself like,

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Speaker 1: hitting just hitting a wall of exhaustion or something like

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Speaker 1: over anxious. And I was able to regulate it for

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Speaker 1: about four years, like you said, with spiritual practices. But

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Speaker 1: one time I got whatever you want to call it triggered.

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Speaker 1: And my something in my nervous system got heightened and

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Speaker 1: I could not calm. I finally had to call my

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Speaker 1: former therapist and get some help because I literally didn't

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Speaker 1: know what to do. I'm so glad we're talking about

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Speaker 1: all these multiple layers these days.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Being aware of what's going on in our bodies. So

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Speaker 1: is there anything more about that that you want to

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Speaker 1: bring in right now, just regulating our nervous systems in

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Speaker 1: this conversation?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, I think, well, this is what

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Speaker 2: the Desert Fathers and Mothers were talking about centuries ago, right?

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Speaker 2: When they talked of nepsis, this idea of watchfulness, this

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Speaker 2: idea of paying attention to our thoughts, our behaviors, our emotions,

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Speaker 2: there's a sense in which that's right where it begins.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen Rowan Williams, one of his newer books

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Speaker 2: called The Passions of the Soul? Is that a familiar

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Speaker 2: book to you? No, no. So good. I love Rowan Williams' work.

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Speaker 2: Passions of the Soul, he's talking about the early church,

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Speaker 2: the desert mothers and fathers, and he's talking about how

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Speaker 2: they were putting words to a spirit of anxiety and acquisitiveness, greed,

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Speaker 2: and he's naming the kind of anxious layers below. And

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Speaker 2: I was thinking as I was reading it, oh, they

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Speaker 2: were in their own way paying attention to this, this,

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Speaker 2: this regulation that we're talking about and asking, well, in

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Speaker 2: the midst of that, how do we, how do we grasp,

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Speaker 2: you know, how, how do we chase after attachments that

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Speaker 2: we think will soothe and help us feel a little

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Speaker 2: bit better, but only draw us into deeper bondage. And so,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're not, we're not really today talking, about

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Speaker 2: things that are fundamentally different than they were talking about

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Speaker 2: a long long time ago we're just now putting you

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Speaker 2: know physiological and neurobiological words to these kinds of realities

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Speaker 2: and um The one last thing I'd say is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, when I work, I work with a lot

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Speaker 2: of pastors and leaders, people in ministry and people beyond

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Speaker 2: that too. And invariably, you know, when I ask them

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Speaker 2: if they're anxious, they'll say, no, I'm fine. I'm not anxious.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm pretty good. I'm probably the least anxious

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Speaker 2: person in my organization, you know, and I have this

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Speaker 2: little exercise that I call the dashboard where I'll get

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Speaker 2: them to write down their thoughts and their emotions and

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Speaker 2: their bodily sensations and their behaviors and their relationships, their

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Speaker 2: experience of God. And they'll say, oh, yeah, probably I'd

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Speaker 2: come up with two or three things. And they'll come

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Speaker 2: back with 20 or 50 things for all I know,

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Speaker 2: you know. Oh, I didn't realize, you know, you gave

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Speaker 2: me all these, you know, these categories and some examples.

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Speaker 2: And I, you know, I have heartburn and irritable bowel

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Speaker 2: syndrome and the headaches. I'm not sleeping. And I drink,

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Speaker 2: you know, three glasses of wine at night before I

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Speaker 2: go to bed. And I, you know, all these things

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize were, you know, were dashboard things. signifiers

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Speaker 2: of what was going on in my, what I call

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Speaker 2: the autonomic engine beneath, you know, that I'm living in dysregulation. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So what happens when, when those light bulbs go on,

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Speaker 1: then what's the conversation become?

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Speaker 2: Well, it can get a little desperate disorienting, right? This

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Speaker 2: is where, you know, in our work, we talk about

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Speaker 2: the wall as Janet Hyper might call it, you know,

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Speaker 2: the journey of disorient through disorientation, you know, That's where, well,

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Speaker 2: I lose some people at that point. And you're like,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to look at this. I didn't, I

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Speaker 2: didn't come in. I came in here for, for you

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Speaker 2: to polish my car, not to look underneath the hood.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Um, so I'm, I lose some people as I'm sure

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Speaker 2: you do in, in your work, you know, when we

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Speaker 2: begin talking about like transformation requires a wilderness, requires the

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Speaker 2: belly of the whale, it requires the dark night, you know,

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Speaker 2: like you'll lose people on that particular, uh, journey. But

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Speaker 2: then there are some who get curious enough to lean in.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, I think I suspect you know this.

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Speaker 2: I've heard Dallas Willard tell stories like this years ago where,

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Speaker 2: you know, when you invite people on this journey and

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Speaker 2: they truly do go on it, it does require the

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Speaker 2: kind of change that for some of them means that

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Speaker 2: they might not be able to continue to work at

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Speaker 2: the same pace or be in the same job or

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Speaker 2: exist in their marriage in the same way. And that

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Speaker 2: can be really hard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, people are making a lot of assumptions about what

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Speaker 1: is necessary and what needs to remain on their plate.

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Speaker 1: We hear this all the time in many and various

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Speaker 1: ways that people are trying to figure out how. to

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Speaker 1: get the healthy things in their life, but they don't

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Speaker 1: have a vision yet for how anything would adjust that

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Speaker 1: already exists. So then they feel a little stuck. Well,

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Speaker 1: how is this going to happen? Cause look at all

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Speaker 1: I've got going on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And I love having those conversations cause you kind of

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Speaker 1: have to shift your paradigm a bit first about all

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Speaker 1: the assumptions you're making about how you're, you're functioning and

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Speaker 1: what's on your list.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Well, you brought it up. I'm going to,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to skip ahead here. I'm going to come

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Speaker 1: back to a couple of words that I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about in your book, but because you said Hagberg,

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Speaker 1: I want to, I want to jump ahead to your

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Speaker 1: reoriented chapter because you brought up Brueggemann, orientation, disorientation, reorientation, St.

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Speaker 1: Teresa's Mansions. You mentioned the critical journey, all of which

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Speaker 1: everyone who's listening, go out and get all these books

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Speaker 1: and read them. I think, first of all, it's really

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Speaker 1: healthy for us to have a long-term vision or at

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Speaker 1: least an understanding of what a process might look like.

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Speaker 1: Just to even get your bearings, even if you feel

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Speaker 1: like you're fumbling around within them, I still think it's

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Speaker 1: nice to have an overarching sense. When I was very young,

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Speaker 1: I was in my late 20s, I became familiar with

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Speaker 1: the critical journey, and I've been able to refer back

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Speaker 1: to it over all of the seasons of my life

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Speaker 1: for decades. And it was helpful. So I'm wondering, maybe

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Speaker 1: could you paint a picture for us of the journey

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Speaker 1: that we're walking over time and how that might help us?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a little nervous about this because I've

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Speaker 2: been really impacted. If you know anything about me, I

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Speaker 2: think Teresa of Avila, I often call her, I work

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Speaker 2: at the seminary in the Reformed tradition. We're fully egalitarian,

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Speaker 2: but because Reformed sounds to some people kind of scary. But,

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Speaker 2: you know, the Reformers, John Calvin, Martin Luther. So I

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Speaker 2: often say St. Teresa of Avila is my favorite 16th

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Speaker 2: century Reformer. She is. And, you know, she does have

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Speaker 2: this journey that she invites us on through the interior castle. Um,

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Speaker 2: and so I wanted to write a chapter on, you know,

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Speaker 2: maps for the journey essentially. And, but I'm also, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of, um, Meister Eckhart and, you know,

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Speaker 2: that tradition, you know, Meister Eckhart doesn't like maps and he,

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Speaker 2: you know, he talks about the wayless way and the

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Speaker 2: pathless path and, you know, language like the very paradoxical.

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Speaker 2: So I'm like, am I violating some deep spiritual principle

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Speaker 2: offering a map? But it's not a map like, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, It's a sort of a vague map because,

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Speaker 2: as you know, on this journey, you know, we can't

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Speaker 2: tell someone all the waypoints. We can't tell exactly what's

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Speaker 2: going to happen. We can say, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: up ahead there may be some challenges or there may

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Speaker 2: be some pain or the lights may go out or

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Speaker 2: you may not know the words to pray. And I

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Speaker 2: think the best mapmakers, so to speak, you know, from

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Speaker 2: the spiritual tradition tell us that there is this journey.

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Speaker 2: through this middle way. It goes all the way back

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Speaker 2: to St. Irenaeus. But throughout church history, you can see

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Speaker 2: lots of different maps and all of them have the

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Speaker 2: same basic sort of movement. Even going back to the Psalms,

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Speaker 2: Walter Brueggemann, orientation, disorientation, reorientation. And it's that middle part that,

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Speaker 2: as you know, so many of our churches, folks just

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Speaker 2: don't understand. I mean, I was a pastor in two

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Speaker 2: different geographies and at engaged lots of different people. And

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Speaker 2: the number of folks were like, but I don't know

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Speaker 2: why this is happening to me right now. It's not

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Speaker 2: supposed to go this way. If I have faith, things

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Speaker 2: are supposed to go well. Where did we get that from?

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Speaker 2: And where did we forget that the story necessarily involves

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Speaker 2: a wilderness or that journey through the belly of the

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Speaker 2: whale or some kind of pain or a cruciform journey,

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Speaker 2: as we talked about with Jesus, or for Paul, you know,

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Speaker 2: so many people I talk to don't realize that after

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Speaker 2: Damascus Road, Paul had to go into his own wilderness,

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Speaker 2: you know, for three years. They're like, oh, he just

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Speaker 2: started preaching. No, he didn't, right? So the maps that

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Speaker 2: I have to offer, and you know, Janet Hadberg and

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Speaker 2: Robert Quaylik, I think is maybe how you say his name,

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Speaker 2: I might be botching that, but in the critical journey,

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Speaker 2: talk about this too, that you will invariably hit a

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Speaker 2: wall and it's not just one wall. If, if you

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Speaker 2: pay attention to your life, there are likely multiple walls

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Speaker 2: along the way. And it's going to feel like you're

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Speaker 2: navigating through a corn maze or a labyrinth blindfolded. You're

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Speaker 2: going to hit wall after wall after wall. But if

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Speaker 2: you can honor that, you know, and if you could say,

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Speaker 2: I've hit a wall, what does this wall have to

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Speaker 2: tell me about where I am right now? And, um,

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Speaker 2: what might I be able to get curious about, about

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Speaker 2: how I got here in the first place? And then,

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Speaker 2: you know, well, we've got some beautiful work to do

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Speaker 2: as spiritual directors and therapists at that point, you know? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I love that aspect of being a spiritual director. When

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Speaker 1: you're meeting with people who are just bona fide in

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Speaker 1: that disoriented place. And, you know, for them, of course,

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Speaker 1: it's painful and disorienting. But for me, I know that

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Speaker 1: it's good because I know the deep work that God

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Speaker 1: can do there and the fruit that could be born

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Speaker 1: once they're through it. So there's this beautiful hope. I

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Speaker 1: think that's just a gift God gives to spiritual directors.

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Speaker 1: We just hold that space.

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Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things that's going through my mind

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Speaker 1: while you're saying all this is, you know, putting it

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Speaker 1: together with what you said before about leaders, you know,

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Speaker 1: checking out, oh, I don't want to look there. It

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Speaker 1: makes it hard if a leader is afraid to look

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Speaker 1: at their own stuff and work it through, then how

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Speaker 1: would they pastor or hold space for people in their

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Speaker 1: congregation who hit those places, because then now they become

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Speaker 1: some kind of weirdo or something. And we talk to

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Speaker 1: people like that as well, who just feel like, I

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Speaker 1: don't fit in anymore because I'm having these things going on,

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Speaker 1: but nobody's acting like it's part of the journey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think a leader can

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Speaker 2: walk with someone if they haven't done their own work, right?

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Speaker 2: They can sort of perform that way enough to maybe

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Speaker 2: offer some things, but I mean, I think you know,

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Speaker 2: those are the very same leaders that end up in

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Speaker 2: my office, in your office, I'm sure, and discover that

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Speaker 2: they're imposters at some level and who I hope eventually

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Speaker 2: do go on the journey. But I do think, you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of folks are finding nowadays that they're not

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Speaker 2: being led by women and men who have done their

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Speaker 2: own work or have gone on their own journeys, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I think this is part of that larger reckoning

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Speaker 2: that we began with. You know, we've we, uh, we

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Speaker 2: sort of, we, we entered into this sort of phase

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Speaker 2: of the church. And I, I suppose, you know, the

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Speaker 2: question is like, where did it begin? And, uh, is

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Speaker 2: it a recent phenomenon? And I actually think that, uh,

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Speaker 2: you know, it, it, it probably can be traced all

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Speaker 2: the way back to Constantine and Christendom. And when we

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Speaker 2: enter into this phase where, you know, it was about faster, bigger, better, stronger. Um, uh, and, and, uh,

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Speaker 2: the slow formation that we prize was jettisoned or, microwavable formation.

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Speaker 2: You know, I just don't have time to do that. We,

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Speaker 2: There's a mission that we've got to attend to. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I was just talking to someone, a leader the other

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Speaker 2: day who was literally a realtor probably five years ago.

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Speaker 2: And a church, a pastor of a very large church said,

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Speaker 2: you're a great communicator and you're great with people. And

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Speaker 2: I know you've only been a Christian for two years,

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Speaker 2: but you're going to be our site pastor of this campus. And, uh,

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Speaker 2: I was it, your site pastor. And then there's moral

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Speaker 2: failure and they point the finger at that guy and say, well,

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Speaker 2: it's your problem. And, um, you know, he cried when

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Speaker 2: I said, listen, I, yeah, of course we've got to

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Speaker 2: deal with you and, and the, the impact of this. But, but, uh,

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Speaker 2: This is a system problem, you know? I mean, you

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Speaker 2: should not have been elevated to that role. And there's

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Speaker 2: a slower formation. He was like, really? There's another way

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Speaker 2: I could have been developed? Really? Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't it just break your heart? I mean, when you

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Speaker 1: say the word system, I call it the machine, the machine,

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Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. Yes. There's a machine

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Speaker 1: that's rolling along. It happens in all different spheres of

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Speaker 1: our culture, whether it's politics or education or even in

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Speaker 1: the church, we can build machines. And then we become

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Speaker 1: servants to this machine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Instead of remembering that we're actually all human beings on

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Speaker 1: a journey with God.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And, oh man, it's heartbreaking. I mean, one of the

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Speaker 1: words you used is the word ripened. I like that word.

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Speaker 2: I stole that.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the story. Yeah, just, pardon?

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Speaker 2: I stole that from James Finley. Well, of course.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I love Finley. Either way, we only have so

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Speaker 1: many words we could all use, right? I keep saying

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Speaker 1: that to him. Like, I know I'm probably saying something

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Speaker 1: someone else said, but I only have this vocabulary that

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Speaker 1: I have. But I love the word ripen because you're

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Speaker 1: talking about how some people feel the pressure to be

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Speaker 1: ripened before they've actually even grown, which is the story

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Speaker 1: you're telling. So what can we, you know, how can we.

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Speaker 2: To appear ripened, yes.

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Speaker 1: Do we appear ripened, but how can we, like, become

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Speaker 1: okay with our limitations, even say, you know what, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if I'm ready.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean, there again, it takes systems that

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Speaker 2: allow us to be okay with our limitations that say,

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Speaker 2: you know, we're in process, and that's okay. I think

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Speaker 2: too many of these systems actually prize a kind of

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Speaker 2: artificial ripening, and I think I've, you probably have lots

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Speaker 2: of stories. I have lots of stories of churches, nonprofits,

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Speaker 2: Christian spaces where we ought to know better. In fact,

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Speaker 2: where the theology might even suggest that there would be

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Speaker 2: limitations there. But there's this sense that you know, when

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Speaker 2: you're on that platform or you're elevated to that role,

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Speaker 2: you can't let them see you sweat. I don't, I

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Speaker 2: don't know how you've experienced that, but I've led in

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Speaker 2: various spaces, you know, and I felt that I felt like, wow, I,

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Speaker 2: I've got to know. Um, yeah, I, I've got to

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Speaker 2: have my, um, I was going to cuss. I'm not

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Speaker 2: sure if I'm allowed to, but I've got to have

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Speaker 2: my stuff together here. And, um, I better have my

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Speaker 2: stuff together because, you know, if they see, if they

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Speaker 2: see me, um, they see my flaws, it's going to

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Speaker 2: be a problem. And thankfully early on, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: was caught pretty early on in my stuff. Uh, at 27, I,

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Speaker 2: I ended up, uh, engaging my own formational work through, um,

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Speaker 2: in seminary through a counseling program and through some spiritual

426
00:23:23,010 --> 00:23:27,060
Speaker 2: direction work. And then a few years in the ministry, I, uh,

427
00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: I was, I had started a church, like a a

428
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: church plant within a much larger church. And, um, I, uh,

429
00:23:35,060 --> 00:23:37,429
Speaker 2: snapped at my wife one night, I was probably 31,

430
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:40,350
Speaker 2: 32 years old. We were, we were prepping and people

431
00:23:40,390 --> 00:23:42,510
Speaker 2: weren't showing up to do their jobs. And I was the,

432
00:23:43,050 --> 00:23:44,670
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to be the preacher and the leader of

433
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:46,790
Speaker 2: this thing. And I shouldn't be doing PowerPoint. I shouldn't

434
00:23:46,830 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: be doing the audio and, you know, but I could

435
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 2: generally do that and let people, oh, it's okay. I

436
00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 2: can take care of it. And that night it got

437
00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:00,030
Speaker 2: to me and I snapped and I, I won't tell

438
00:24:00,050 --> 00:24:02,090
Speaker 2: you the whole story, but we had a young daughter

439
00:24:02,109 --> 00:24:05,630
Speaker 2: at the time and she was sort of falling down

440
00:24:05,670 --> 00:24:09,379
Speaker 2: the steps of the, you know, the church platform and

441
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:13,739
Speaker 2: And I snapped at Sarah, my wife, for not attending

442
00:24:13,790 --> 00:24:17,670
Speaker 2: to her. I wasn't mindful of the whole system that

443
00:24:17,770 --> 00:24:20,030
Speaker 2: I had created and the rush that we were in.

444
00:24:20,050 --> 00:24:23,270
Speaker 2: I wasn't looking at that. And one of the most

445
00:24:23,310 --> 00:24:27,530
Speaker 2: beautiful things that has ever happened in my life or ministry,

446
00:24:28,970 --> 00:24:35,109
Speaker 2: immediately to the people who are part of this group,

447
00:24:35,390 --> 00:24:38,350
Speaker 2: one of them being a leader of the musicians up there,

448
00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 2: they took me and they said, uh, we're leaving. I said,

449
00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:44,139
Speaker 2: we're leaving now. I, we've got a service to do.

450
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:46,820
Speaker 2: I gotta preach. No, we're not doing that. You're not

451
00:24:46,859 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: doing that tonight. I'm not doing that tonight. And, uh,

452
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,950
Speaker 2: they told a couple other people, yeah, just do something,

453
00:24:53,390 --> 00:24:56,270
Speaker 2: you know, sing some songs and pray some prayers. And they,

454
00:24:56,750 --> 00:24:59,710
Speaker 2: we left and we went back to my house and, um,

455
00:25:00,910 --> 00:25:04,179
Speaker 2: they said, what's going on? And, um, I said, I'm

456
00:25:04,220 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 2: so stressed and I, you know, I, I don't feel

457
00:25:06,940 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 2: like this is going well. And I cried and cried

458
00:25:08,740 --> 00:25:12,570
Speaker 2: and cried and cried, cried because they took me away.

459
00:25:12,690 --> 00:25:16,590
Speaker 2: Like I, they didn't require me to be falsely ripened, right.

460
00:25:16,630 --> 00:25:21,970
Speaker 2: Artificially ripened. They, they actually said there's space for you to, um, uh,

461
00:25:22,790 --> 00:25:29,629
Speaker 2: be messy and broken and, um, and mean to your wife. And, uh, And,

462
00:25:29,950 --> 00:25:31,970
Speaker 2: you know, and eventually to be able to come back

463
00:25:32,010 --> 00:25:34,810
Speaker 2: around and address that and own that in front of

464
00:25:35,010 --> 00:25:38,410
Speaker 2: everyone else, you know. So how rare is it, right,

465
00:25:38,450 --> 00:25:42,470
Speaker 2: to have space like that? Oh, I know.

466
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,170
Speaker 1: I have hardly ever heard a story like that where

467
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:47,640
Speaker 1: someone just called the person out in the moment and said,

468
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,639
Speaker 1: you know, you get to be a real person who's broken.

469
00:25:49,660 --> 00:25:53,140
Speaker 1: What's going on here? Yeah. Cared enough to to change

470
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: a program and then really meet with you. That's amazing.

471
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,810
Speaker 1: I think that would be, I would welcome that if

472
00:26:00,850 --> 00:26:03,550
Speaker 1: that happened in any setting I was in, if someone

473
00:26:04,730 --> 00:26:06,950
Speaker 1: needed to pull someone aside. It can't feel good in

474
00:26:06,970 --> 00:26:08,469
Speaker 1: the moment, but don't you think in the long run,

475
00:26:08,490 --> 00:26:11,010
Speaker 1: of course, you were changed? You were seen?

476
00:26:11,150 --> 00:26:14,290
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Something happened in my body, right? Where it

477
00:26:14,330 --> 00:26:18,550
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I don't have to try so hard.

478
00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:20,409
Speaker 2: I don't have to fake it. If I come in

479
00:26:20,510 --> 00:26:24,190
Speaker 2: next week and the audio person isn't there, the PowerPoint

480
00:26:24,210 --> 00:26:28,790
Speaker 2: person isn't there, I can talk to the very people

481
00:26:28,830 --> 00:26:30,710
Speaker 2: who took me out and say, I'm starting to feel

482
00:26:30,730 --> 00:26:34,090
Speaker 2: a little bit anxious, you know, or, or guess what?

483
00:26:34,630 --> 00:26:36,670
Speaker 2: It all went on that night and it was a

484
00:26:36,910 --> 00:26:40,310
Speaker 2: wonderful evening without me and without the lead person doing

485
00:26:40,330 --> 00:26:44,730
Speaker 2: the music, you know? And, uh, and so I, that's

486
00:26:44,780 --> 00:26:47,700
Speaker 2: what I thought couldn't happen, you know? And so that,

487
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 2: that sort of, that's a good curative for my own narcissism. Right.

488
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 1: So we'll continue after the break.

489
00:26:55,220 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.

490
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,580
Speaker 1: Oh, to step out of the center of our own lives, right?

491
00:27:00,619 --> 00:27:03,260
Speaker 1: Like I don't have to make every single thing happen

492
00:27:03,300 --> 00:27:08,720
Speaker 1: and I'm not the key for everything to go well. Oh, man.

493
00:27:10,460 --> 00:27:14,070
Speaker 1: Isn't it rare? Well, it's very easy for me. Like

494
00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:15,609
Speaker 1: we talk about, of course, you want to be the

495
00:27:15,650 --> 00:27:17,270
Speaker 1: leading lady in your own life. Of course, you want

496
00:27:17,290 --> 00:27:19,369
Speaker 1: to have agency. I want to have a voice. I

497
00:27:19,390 --> 00:27:22,650
Speaker 1: want to speak. But I can't just need the spotlight

498
00:27:22,670 --> 00:27:27,689
Speaker 1: all the time. That's a whole different conversation. Yeah, yeah. Well,

499
00:27:27,710 --> 00:27:29,609
Speaker 1: the other word that I think we've already sort of

500
00:27:29,670 --> 00:27:32,070
Speaker 1: come around this one a little bit is the word vulnerability,

501
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:34,250
Speaker 1: which you used, which I thought was cool. I've heard

502
00:27:34,290 --> 00:27:39,490
Speaker 1: that word before in terms of social media, especially, you know,

503
00:27:39,510 --> 00:27:42,990
Speaker 1: the phone, people are being faux vulnerable. Like you're, they're

504
00:27:43,030 --> 00:27:45,949
Speaker 1: crying on the screen just to, you know, like it's like,

505
00:27:46,020 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be real, but it kind of isn't.

506
00:27:48,020 --> 00:27:48,740
Speaker 2: Yep.

507
00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: Maybe we could talk about actual vulnerability versus vulnerability. Can

508
00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: you do that for a moment?

509
00:27:56,010 --> 00:27:59,270
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I, I think, I think that probably

510
00:27:59,290 --> 00:28:01,350
Speaker 2: in the work that you and I do, we're, we're

511
00:28:01,390 --> 00:28:05,530
Speaker 2: inviting people into vulnerable spaces, you know, the kinds of

512
00:28:05,590 --> 00:28:08,689
Speaker 2: spaces where in the moment, I mean, the space that

513
00:28:08,710 --> 00:28:10,490
Speaker 2: I just named a moment ago, that, that was a

514
00:28:10,530 --> 00:28:14,630
Speaker 2: vulnerable space because in the moment I was caught, right. And, um,

515
00:28:15,550 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 2: I was kind of undone and I was held by

516
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,020
Speaker 2: a couple of people and it was very, um, safe

517
00:28:21,060 --> 00:28:23,260
Speaker 2: and it was very contained and it was very precious,

518
00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:27,909
Speaker 2: you know? Um, I think that nowadays, you know, I

519
00:28:27,950 --> 00:28:30,130
Speaker 2: really like the work of John O'Donohue. If you're familiar

520
00:28:30,150 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 2: with John O'Donohue, Anup Kara, you know, he talks about

521
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 2: this fluorescent culture that we're in with bright lights and

522
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: where we're always on and where we have to expose

523
00:28:44,220 --> 00:28:47,890
Speaker 2: ourselves all the time. It feels like, you know, this

524
00:28:47,950 --> 00:28:51,590
Speaker 2: is what we've been doing for so long with reality TV, right,

525
00:28:51,610 --> 00:28:53,130
Speaker 2: that goes back probably 20, 25 years now and these

526
00:28:54,750 --> 00:28:58,890
Speaker 2: these talk shows where there are, you know, people's, um,

527
00:28:59,470 --> 00:29:03,830
Speaker 2: you know, uh, uh, the sex of the child or the,

528
00:29:03,950 --> 00:29:06,540
Speaker 2: or the father of the child is revealed on the

529
00:29:06,580 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 2: Jerry Springer show or something like, remember this, try to

530
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,100
Speaker 2: think of what it was back in the day or back. Yes.

531
00:29:12,220 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: Yes.

532
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: Yes. Like all these parental. Yeah.

533
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:15,740
Speaker 1: Who's the, who's the father?

534
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 2: Who's the father, you know? And, um, How did we

535
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,219
Speaker 2: get here? You know, how do we get to this

536
00:29:21,290 --> 00:29:24,910
Speaker 2: place where all of this is exposed? Now, the ironic

537
00:29:24,930 --> 00:29:27,270
Speaker 2: thing about this is that I think for a lot

538
00:29:27,290 --> 00:29:30,350
Speaker 2: of us who probably were being formed in these ways

539
00:29:30,410 --> 00:29:33,090
Speaker 2: in the 1990s, we hoped for a day where there

540
00:29:33,130 --> 00:29:37,330
Speaker 2: would be more honesty, transparency, vulnerability, where there'd be more resources,

541
00:29:38,030 --> 00:29:40,230
Speaker 2: where um i mean i was reading henry now and

542
00:29:40,270 --> 00:29:42,670
Speaker 2: back in the late 1990s and i was thinking oh

543
00:29:43,230 --> 00:29:46,180
Speaker 2: wouldn't it be beautiful if our churches were like this

544
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:48,980
Speaker 2: wouldn't but i think we've we've actually gone to the

545
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: opposite extreme where it's it's like um they're Under the

546
00:29:54,740 --> 00:29:59,500
Speaker 2: pretense of vulnerability, you've got leaders getting up, people getting

547
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,190
Speaker 2: on social media, sharing about their lives, talking about the Enneagram,

548
00:30:05,430 --> 00:30:08,990
Speaker 2: perhaps talking about their ministries or their marriages in ways

549
00:30:09,050 --> 00:30:12,070
Speaker 2: that are about display. They're performative. I call it an

550
00:30:12,190 --> 00:30:23,830
Speaker 2: airbrushed authenticity also. For me, vulnerability is reserved for my wife, Sarah, John, Brian. Kyle,

551
00:30:23,850 --> 00:30:25,750
Speaker 2: you know, some of the men in my life who

552
00:30:26,410 --> 00:30:31,090
Speaker 2: know me, um, someone might say, Hey, Chuck, you've talked

553
00:30:31,130 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: about a couple of things here that are pretty honest.

554
00:30:33,820 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: Isn't that vulnerability? And I say, no, actually not. I

555
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:42,350
Speaker 2: think I'm being open with you, but, um, but I,

556
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,770
Speaker 2: I really do think that it's, it's become performative in

557
00:30:45,810 --> 00:30:50,590
Speaker 2: the sense that, um, it's used in service of, um,

558
00:30:51,790 --> 00:30:55,010
Speaker 2: It's used in service of platform. It's used in service

559
00:30:55,110 --> 00:30:59,830
Speaker 2: of building brands. You know, I worked with the son

560
00:30:59,870 --> 00:31:03,170
Speaker 2: of a big church baby boomer preacher who's all about,

561
00:31:03,290 --> 00:31:05,970
Speaker 2: you know, lights, camera, action, ministry. And the son didn't

562
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:08,950
Speaker 2: like any of that. And but created his own show.

563
00:31:08,990 --> 00:31:10,490
Speaker 2: I think it was a tick tock or something like

564
00:31:10,510 --> 00:31:13,870
Speaker 2: that years ago. And it really was airbrushed authenticity. I mean,

565
00:31:13,890 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: if you looked at the perfect setting and he had

566
00:31:17,060 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 2: tattoos and he had the coolest glasses and, you know,

567
00:31:20,260 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 2: the background was kind of faded and there was a

568
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: surfboard back there. And it was like, you know, and

569
00:31:24,460 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 2: he's like, we're just going to be real here. And

570
00:31:26,420 --> 00:31:30,750
Speaker 2: no one knew him. He had not yet reckoned with

571
00:31:30,790 --> 00:31:33,730
Speaker 2: his own wounds. He was working out his own. And

572
00:31:34,750 --> 00:31:38,710
Speaker 2: the camera became his mirror. You know, he was longing

573
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,770
Speaker 2: to be seen and known. And I think this is

574
00:31:41,810 --> 00:31:44,810
Speaker 2: the case with this vulnerability that we're talking about. The

575
00:31:44,910 --> 00:31:48,550
Speaker 2: camera becomes our mirror. Social media becomes our mirror. The

576
00:31:48,670 --> 00:31:51,650
Speaker 2: audience becomes our mirror. I'm the senior pastor who has

577
00:31:51,690 --> 00:31:54,850
Speaker 2: to gather a crowd to look at me and affirm me.

578
00:31:56,570 --> 00:31:59,150
Speaker 2: And that's, I mean, I think that probably you and

579
00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:03,060
Speaker 2: I see the behind the scenes, the underbelly of that,

580
00:32:03,100 --> 00:32:05,810
Speaker 2: you know, when they come out from you know, this

581
00:32:06,350 --> 00:32:09,330
Speaker 2: off the stage out from behind the camera. And it's,

582
00:32:09,550 --> 00:32:12,450
Speaker 2: it's like, I don't know who I am. I remember

583
00:32:12,490 --> 00:32:15,250
Speaker 2: the guy, the son of the pastor with the surfboard

584
00:32:15,270 --> 00:32:17,650
Speaker 2: in the background, you know, I remember we sat together

585
00:32:17,730 --> 00:32:19,410
Speaker 2: one day and I showed him one of this video.

586
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:21,790
Speaker 2: I was like, have you ever watched this? And I

587
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:23,190
Speaker 2: was like, Oh no, no, no. I don't want to

588
00:32:23,230 --> 00:32:26,209
Speaker 2: watch that. I said, I need you to watch. And

589
00:32:26,450 --> 00:32:29,350
Speaker 2: he said, I don't recognize that guy. I don't know

590
00:32:29,410 --> 00:32:33,850
Speaker 2: who he is, you know? And so, um, it's, yeah,

591
00:32:33,930 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 2: it's really painful, but that's kind of where we live

592
00:32:37,170 --> 00:32:41,060
Speaker 2: right now. Right. And it's, um, I think it's dangerous and, um,

593
00:32:42,180 --> 00:32:45,340
Speaker 2: I think it's, it's disconnecting us from ourselves and one

594
00:32:45,380 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 2: another in ways that we're not even quite aware of,

595
00:32:47,780 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: you know, until we slow down long enough, because I

596
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,380
Speaker 2: think it's all fueled by this physiological dysregulation that I

597
00:32:54,420 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: often talk about, you know, people are in search of, um,

598
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:02,390
Speaker 2: attention in search of, uh, affirmation in search of the

599
00:33:02,450 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 2: soothing that comes the dopamine hit that comes with a,

600
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,380
Speaker 2: you like me, you know, I post got 300 likes,

601
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: got a thousand likes. I'm up to 10,000 followers. I'm

602
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: up to 50,000 followers. It's never enough, you know? And

603
00:33:14,940 --> 00:33:17,710
Speaker 2: so I, this way, I think the work we do

604
00:33:17,790 --> 00:33:20,190
Speaker 2: is such a privilege, isn't it? Like, because we really

605
00:33:20,250 --> 00:33:24,250
Speaker 2: do get to have the conversations, um, that, I mean, I,

606
00:33:24,290 --> 00:33:27,210
Speaker 2: I think they're conversations that often ground me that invite

607
00:33:27,250 --> 00:33:29,300
Speaker 2: me back to my own humanity.

608
00:33:31,050 --> 00:33:35,350
Speaker 1: Yeah. That's what I love. Uh, our current cohort, uh,

609
00:33:36,130 --> 00:33:38,910
Speaker 1: in pace. I mean, this is just one example, this group,

610
00:33:39,630 --> 00:33:44,130
Speaker 1: there is an appropriate openness there. And, and I would,

611
00:33:44,370 --> 00:33:47,530
Speaker 1: maybe I would dare say vulnerability as well with one another.

612
00:33:47,550 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 1: You know, they don't, they come together. These people come

613
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: together and they don't know each other, but they bond

614
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 1: immediately because they've sort of filtered themselves down through this.

615
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,970
Speaker 1: And that's called unheard living. And then it's this training and, um,

616
00:33:59,700 --> 00:34:01,900
Speaker 1: it is wonderful to sit around that table and to

617
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:06,700
Speaker 1: hear the stories and to fry together and to have

618
00:34:06,770 --> 00:34:09,140
Speaker 1: people say, yeah, this is what I've been doing and

619
00:34:09,180 --> 00:34:12,830
Speaker 1: it's not working anymore. And I just, I love those

620
00:34:12,870 --> 00:34:16,770
Speaker 1: kinds of spaces because it's, it's safe. It's held. The

621
00:34:16,810 --> 00:34:19,570
Speaker 1: people in the circle are mature enough to handle whatever's

622
00:34:19,610 --> 00:34:22,730
Speaker 1: going on. And I think, I think leaders need spaces

623
00:34:22,790 --> 00:34:25,049
Speaker 1: like that where they can say what, what needs to

624
00:34:25,090 --> 00:34:27,810
Speaker 1: be said. No one's dumping any, We'd have a conversation

625
00:34:27,830 --> 00:34:29,770
Speaker 1: with them if they came in and dumped something inappropriate.

626
00:34:29,810 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: But they're sharing appropriately. There's a kind of vulnerability. Obviously,

627
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,320
Speaker 1: Henry now has said, what is most personal is most universal.

628
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: There's always lots of head nodding like, oh, yeah, oh,

629
00:34:41,860 --> 00:34:44,670
Speaker 1: I get that. And so I think it is important

630
00:34:44,710 --> 00:34:47,750
Speaker 1: for us to be willing to be open, to be

631
00:34:47,830 --> 00:34:51,550
Speaker 1: willing to be vulnerable, to find the place. Even if

632
00:34:51,590 --> 00:34:53,230
Speaker 1: you had one or two people in your life that

633
00:34:53,250 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 1: you could be vulnerable with, but especially leaders. especially leaders.

634
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: You can't, you can't do this alone. I mean, I

635
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: came up through, you know, regular evangelicalism since the eighties,

636
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: you know, and it was all with the suits and

637
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: ties and the, everything was polished. And there was that

638
00:35:11,219 --> 00:35:15,390
Speaker 1: sort of gloss of, we all look good and smell good.

639
00:35:16,250 --> 00:35:18,190
Speaker 1: And without even pointing anyone, I'm just saying that's just

640
00:35:18,230 --> 00:35:19,810
Speaker 1: the way it was when I came through, you know,

641
00:35:20,070 --> 00:35:22,430
Speaker 1: look good, smell good on Sunday. And then you get

642
00:35:22,469 --> 00:35:24,859
Speaker 1: caught in that trap of, well, I guess my other

643
00:35:24,890 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: stuff isn't welcome, or we shouldn't be looking at that,

644
00:35:26,700 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: or I guess I have to hide that, or whatever.

645
00:35:28,340 --> 00:35:30,020
Speaker 1: And now your shadow's building, and now.

646
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:32,339
Speaker 2: You're in all different covers, right?

647
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,500
Speaker 1: And then it blows up, and now there's a fall.

648
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:41,450
Speaker 2: And, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think the,

649
00:35:42,469 --> 00:35:46,780
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know another way to sort of,

650
00:35:47,030 --> 00:35:50,110
Speaker 2: I don't know another antidote for this. but to be

651
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,590
Speaker 2: seen and known in all the ways that you're talking about.

652
00:35:52,650 --> 00:35:54,850
Speaker 2: Like I think, you know, in the spaces that I've

653
00:35:54,870 --> 00:35:58,330
Speaker 2: been in where some of the more of the programs,

654
00:35:58,870 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 2: I don't love the word program, but like the space where,

655
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:08,940
Speaker 2: where we do soul care, we invite people into spiritual transformation. I, I,

656
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:12,509
Speaker 2: what I hear often is, you know, I thought I

657
00:36:12,530 --> 00:36:14,730
Speaker 2: was coming into this to learn a lot more or whatever,

658
00:36:14,770 --> 00:36:17,430
Speaker 2: but I, But what I discovered was that I had

659
00:36:17,469 --> 00:36:19,569
Speaker 2: this deep hunger to be seen and known in ways

660
00:36:19,630 --> 00:36:25,550
Speaker 2: that I didn't realize. And that becomes for me, that's bedrock,

661
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,420
Speaker 2: as you know, with this new book, at the very beginning,

662
00:36:28,460 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 2: The Conditions for Change, where we're getting back to the

663
00:36:31,140 --> 00:36:35,260
Speaker 2: very basic needs to be seen and known, to be held,

664
00:36:35,420 --> 00:36:38,740
Speaker 2: you know, by in the gaze of another and ultimately

665
00:36:38,780 --> 00:36:41,649
Speaker 2: in the gaze of God, you know, and I call

666
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:44,270
Speaker 2: it a sort of proper kind of attention seeking, like

667
00:36:44,310 --> 00:36:46,989
Speaker 2: there is a The sense that we, you know, that

668
00:36:47,030 --> 00:36:50,730
Speaker 2: desire for attention is, is actually kind of core, you know,

669
00:36:51,150 --> 00:36:55,029
Speaker 2: now if Facebook is, or whatever, TikTok is the only

670
00:36:55,090 --> 00:36:59,850
Speaker 2: way that you get it, that's a problem, you know, but, um, um,

671
00:37:00,410 --> 00:37:03,770
Speaker 2: I long to be, I mean, contemplative prayer changed my

672
00:37:03,830 --> 00:37:06,730
Speaker 2: life in the sense that it, you know, I could

673
00:37:06,790 --> 00:37:09,780
Speaker 2: experience the gaze of God, you know, the delight, um,

674
00:37:09,969 --> 00:37:13,940
Speaker 2: on the face of, of Jesus. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

675
00:37:14,940 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: Well, let's go there then, you know, if we're hearkening

676
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: back to some of the processes that we've talked about,

677
00:37:19,980 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 1: you know, you've got elimination, purgation, and union. I mean,

678
00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:27,129
Speaker 1: let's talk about union. Aren't we sort of, isn't this

679
00:37:27,230 --> 00:37:31,110
Speaker 1: what we're really aiming at is this sense of union

680
00:37:31,630 --> 00:37:34,790
Speaker 1: with Christ in Christ? And some people can think that

681
00:37:34,830 --> 00:37:38,509
Speaker 1: like it's mysterious or it's far off or something, but

682
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,029
Speaker 1: You're touching on that. You're touching on that. Our bodies

683
00:37:42,210 --> 00:37:44,190
Speaker 1: and our minds and our hearts are actually longing for

684
00:37:44,230 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: the very thing We're made for. Can you give us

685
00:37:48,380 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: a vision for what that might look like for us,

686
00:37:50,739 --> 00:37:51,900
Speaker 1: like in today's parlance?

687
00:37:52,340 --> 00:37:52,840
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

688
00:37:53,140 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: Yeah.

689
00:37:53,860 --> 00:37:57,339
Speaker 2: I mean, the thing about union, it sounds so mystical, right?

690
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,030
Speaker 2: It's like the ladder. I'm kind of like looking down

691
00:38:01,070 --> 00:38:03,370
Speaker 2: there like, oh, I'm not like all of you. I've

692
00:38:03,989 --> 00:38:08,109
Speaker 2: experienced union with God. This is why I love St.

693
00:38:08,170 --> 00:38:13,110
Speaker 2: Teresa of Avila, because the more The further she traverses

694
00:38:13,190 --> 00:38:18,390
Speaker 2: into the interior castle, into that seventh dwelling where the

695
00:38:18,430 --> 00:38:20,770
Speaker 2: king is on his throne, so to speak, Jesus is there,

696
00:38:21,330 --> 00:38:24,030
Speaker 2: that place of union and communion, the more human she becomes,

697
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:30,540
Speaker 2: the more ordinary she becomes. You become more grounded. The

698
00:38:30,580 --> 00:38:35,220
Speaker 2: people who I've experienced who are true elders, they're really human,

699
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,190
Speaker 2: they're really grounded, they're very earthy. Um, they're very accessible.

700
00:38:39,310 --> 00:38:41,250
Speaker 2: You know, there's not some sense of like, Oh no,

701
00:38:41,310 --> 00:38:45,090
Speaker 2: I'm too important. Um, and those are, I mean, I,

702
00:38:45,450 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 2: I can count those people in one hand, maybe two

703
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:51,299
Speaker 2: right there. There aren't very many folks like that out

704
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,540
Speaker 2: there because we don't have a society that's, you know,

705
00:38:54,580 --> 00:39:02,830
Speaker 2: that that's prize that kind of, um, a generation of elders. Right. Uh, so, uh, Yeah.

706
00:39:02,930 --> 00:39:05,410
Speaker 2: I mean, I think union, another way of talking about

707
00:39:05,489 --> 00:39:10,569
Speaker 2: is oneness, worthiness, wholeheartedness, I think is important language for me.

708
00:39:10,590 --> 00:39:14,420
Speaker 2: You know, St. Augustine talked about the scattered and gathered self.

709
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,280
Speaker 2: You know, it's the gathered self where we return to ourselves.

710
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: Those languages that he used, that's not Oprah's language. That's St.

711
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,450
Speaker 2: Augustine's language, right? And so return to yourself. You've been

712
00:39:25,450 --> 00:39:28,870
Speaker 2: chasing in all these different places. Now come come home

713
00:39:28,989 --> 00:39:32,210
Speaker 2: it's all already yours and i think that's what you

714
00:39:32,230 --> 00:39:36,370
Speaker 2: discover as you proceed along in the journey as you've

715
00:39:36,430 --> 00:39:39,110
Speaker 2: chased and chased and chased and exhausted yourself doing it

716
00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:41,589
Speaker 2: when it's it's all already yours it's the very thing

717
00:39:41,610 --> 00:39:45,219
Speaker 2: that the father says to the older brother in luke

718
00:39:45,219 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: 15 right son you're always with me and everything i

719
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,110
Speaker 2: have is yours and and uh I don't believe that still.

720
00:39:51,130 --> 00:39:55,149
Speaker 2: And I'm 56, you know? And, uh, so I'm still

721
00:39:55,170 --> 00:39:58,420
Speaker 2: looking for it. Maybe I'll write another book and see

722
00:39:58,460 --> 00:40:01,379
Speaker 2: if I find it doing that, you know? So, um,

723
00:40:02,100 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 2: but yeah, slowly, you know, there's this sense of, Oh,

724
00:40:05,420 --> 00:40:08,380
Speaker 2: it might be more okay than I thought it was,

725
00:40:08,540 --> 00:40:09,760
Speaker 2: you know? Yeah.

726
00:40:10,510 --> 00:40:10,930
Speaker 1: Yeah.

727
00:40:11,070 --> 00:40:14,340
Speaker 2: I tell a quick story. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, I,

728
00:40:14,590 --> 00:40:21,450
Speaker 2: I recently, um, I was, I was doing some reading, uh, and, uh,

729
00:40:21,530 --> 00:40:24,350
Speaker 2: there was an invitation to show up with a little

730
00:40:24,430 --> 00:40:27,069
Speaker 2: bit more humanity, a little bit more messiness. Don't be

731
00:40:27,110 --> 00:40:29,350
Speaker 2: as prepared as you. And I've always been one to

732
00:40:29,410 --> 00:40:31,750
Speaker 2: be prepared. And I remember reading Henry. Now I've talked

733
00:40:31,810 --> 00:40:34,529
Speaker 2: about this a long, long time ago, you know, about, uh,

734
00:40:35,060 --> 00:40:37,859
Speaker 2: he prepares so much for the talks that he'd have

735
00:40:37,900 --> 00:40:39,900
Speaker 2: to give. And then he recognized after a while that was,

736
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,739
Speaker 2: that it was in him already. And it's like, yeah,

737
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 2: it's all in me. I've been doing this for a

738
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 2: long time. And, um, I went into a series of

739
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,420
Speaker 2: talks that I needed to do, um, uh, with, with

740
00:40:50,460 --> 00:40:53,020
Speaker 2: a little bit more openness. And the first two talks went,

741
00:40:53,180 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: went okay. And the third in my mind was a disaster.

742
00:40:57,060 --> 00:41:00,009
Speaker 2: I mean, it was, I was, it was an evening

743
00:41:00,110 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: after a full day and I was tired and, uh,

744
00:41:03,010 --> 00:41:07,650
Speaker 2: the room was quite warm and, um, and, uh, I

745
00:41:07,710 --> 00:41:10,410
Speaker 2: felt a lot of shame that evening, but it was, um,

746
00:41:10,610 --> 00:41:14,380
Speaker 2: a different kind of experience that evening where I felt, um,

747
00:41:15,230 --> 00:41:18,030
Speaker 2: I felt held in it, like, okay, that just happened.

748
00:41:18,570 --> 00:41:21,610
Speaker 2: And I think in the past, I worked really hard

749
00:41:22,010 --> 00:41:27,430
Speaker 2: to never, ever let anything like that happen. And I

750
00:41:27,469 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 2: don't happen to think, in fact, someone later said, I

751
00:41:31,460 --> 00:41:34,259
Speaker 2: thought that evening talk was your best of all, you know,

752
00:41:34,739 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: and you've heard things like that before, you know, they're

753
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,420
Speaker 2: always surprising, but I know I was stumbling over my

754
00:41:40,500 --> 00:41:43,950
Speaker 2: words and I didn't feel quite coherent But I do

755
00:41:43,989 --> 00:41:47,220
Speaker 2: know that there's something about that where I experienced more

756
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,380
Speaker 2: freedom in those two days in that space that I

757
00:41:50,460 --> 00:41:52,900
Speaker 2: had in a number of other spaces where I'd come in,

758
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:55,779
Speaker 2: been like, well, they're expecting a lot of me because

759
00:41:55,820 --> 00:41:57,580
Speaker 2: I've written a few books and I teach at a

760
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:01,100
Speaker 2: seminary and surely I can't screw up, you know. So I,

761
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:06,029
Speaker 2: it just, it feels like, you know, like, I think

762
00:42:06,330 --> 00:42:08,910
Speaker 2: I thought by the time I turned 40, I'd be

763
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 2: grown up. And maybe I think now by the time

764
00:42:12,100 --> 00:42:14,060
Speaker 2: I turn 60, I'll be grown up. And then when

765
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:16,339
Speaker 2: I turn 60, by the time I turn 80, I'll

766
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,549
Speaker 2: be grown up. You know, that's just not the way

767
00:42:18,590 --> 00:42:20,910
Speaker 2: it works, I guess. I don't think so.

768
00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:24,290
Speaker 1: I'm already past 60. And I can tell you that

769
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:29,150
Speaker 1: we're still working on things. We're still working on stuff.

770
00:42:29,910 --> 00:42:33,109
Speaker 2: You were supposed to, you know, for the last 10 minutes,

771
00:42:33,130 --> 00:42:35,259
Speaker 2: you're going to tell me, you know, all the things that,

772
00:42:35,660 --> 00:42:37,459
Speaker 2: all the ways that, you know, I could be grown

773
00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: up like you. Okay.

774
00:42:40,230 --> 00:42:43,609
Speaker 1: Oh, goodness. I have a friend who's going to be

775
00:42:43,610 --> 00:42:46,340
Speaker 1: 93 this year. And when we get together, there's a

776
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,359
Speaker 1: handful of us. We meet on Zoom because we live

777
00:42:48,380 --> 00:42:51,140
Speaker 1: in different places. But whenever we get, you know, she'll

778
00:42:51,180 --> 00:42:54,359
Speaker 1: get out her little notepad. And, you know, we're all

779
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,219
Speaker 1: in our 60s and she's 90. I'm like, what are we?

780
00:42:56,860 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: She's taking notes. She's still learning. She wants to know

781
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: what's going on with you.

782
00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 2: I love that.

783
00:43:01,140 --> 00:43:03,390
Speaker 1: And how is God meeting with you? She just wants

784
00:43:03,489 --> 00:43:06,170
Speaker 1: to know. And she takes notes, literally, so she can

785
00:43:06,190 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: remember good things that she wants to learn. hold on to.

786
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,140
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm going to be like this if I

787
00:43:11,180 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 1: can make it to 93. Don't you want to be

788
00:43:13,060 --> 00:43:13,460
Speaker 1: a learner?

789
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:14,380
Speaker 2: Yeah.

790
00:43:14,620 --> 00:43:15,280
Speaker 1: And a grower.

791
00:43:15,300 --> 00:43:16,820
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. Yeah.

792
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: So inspired. And she could be, you know, cause she's amazing.

793
00:43:20,660 --> 00:43:22,460
Speaker 1: Of course she is. He's 93 and she's lived an

794
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: amazing life, but she's just so humble and gentle and

795
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:28,630
Speaker 1: a beautiful model for me. So yeah, as far as

796
00:43:28,670 --> 00:43:30,670
Speaker 1: I can tell, Chuck, we're still going to be on

797
00:43:30,710 --> 00:43:31,190
Speaker 1: the street.

798
00:43:31,430 --> 00:43:34,750
Speaker 2: Okay. We're going to, okay.

799
00:43:34,770 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 1: So buckle in. So yeah, Well, since we work a

800
00:43:38,140 --> 00:43:41,359
Speaker 1: lot with leaders, let's sort of end here. You describe

801
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: becoming a differentiated leader.

802
00:43:44,300 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

803
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,790
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? And maybe send us

804
00:43:47,870 --> 00:43:51,190
Speaker 1: off with this. For someone listening, at whatever level someone's

805
00:43:51,230 --> 00:43:54,210
Speaker 1: coming and listening, what would it mean for them to

806
00:43:54,250 --> 00:43:56,029
Speaker 1: be a differentiated leader right now?

807
00:43:57,190 --> 00:44:01,890
Speaker 2: You know, I love that there's language like differentiation that,

808
00:44:01,910 --> 00:44:05,690
Speaker 2: you know, we've probably been talking about that concept for

809
00:44:05,710 --> 00:44:08,470
Speaker 2: two millennia, three millennia, you know, and yet we find

810
00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:11,630
Speaker 2: new language, talk about things that I think Augustine was

811
00:44:11,690 --> 00:44:14,540
Speaker 2: talking about and John of the cross and St. Grace

812
00:44:14,620 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: and others, because the differentiated leader is a grounded leader. It's,

813
00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:22,420
Speaker 2: but it's language that emerges out of Bowenian family systems

814
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,250
Speaker 2: and it gets at the capacity to be yourself, to

815
00:44:26,290 --> 00:44:29,850
Speaker 2: have your convictions, um, And yet at the same time,

816
00:44:30,050 --> 00:44:34,330
Speaker 2: remain connected to someone else, which feels very rare nowadays

817
00:44:34,530 --> 00:44:37,850
Speaker 2: in our very tribalized and polarized world to be able

818
00:44:37,890 --> 00:44:41,089
Speaker 2: to say, because it feels like we've got to choose

819
00:44:41,170 --> 00:44:43,469
Speaker 2: one or the other. Like on the one side, I

820
00:44:43,790 --> 00:44:47,009
Speaker 2: have my convictions and I'm right. And you're wrong, Gem,

821
00:44:47,090 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 2: you know, or we've got to give up something of

822
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:57,760
Speaker 2: our convictions or, you know, what we prize at some level.

823
00:44:58,660 --> 00:45:01,180
Speaker 2: just to stay connected to someone else. You know, we

824
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:04,220
Speaker 2: call that fusion or enmeshment, you know, and people pleasing

825
00:45:04,260 --> 00:45:07,580
Speaker 2: or fawning or, and, um, I've, I've lived there for

826
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,790
Speaker 2: a good number of years, you know, where it's like,

827
00:45:09,850 --> 00:45:13,650
Speaker 2: I'll sacrifice myself. I'll abandon myself to stay connected to

828
00:45:13,730 --> 00:45:15,750
Speaker 2: you because a lot of us, and for me and

829
00:45:15,810 --> 00:45:17,770
Speaker 2: my family of origin, that's, that's the way it went.

830
00:45:17,870 --> 00:45:19,900
Speaker 2: You know, I wanted to stay connected. I had to

831
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,819
Speaker 2: give up something of myself. So, Yeah, so what we

832
00:45:23,860 --> 00:45:27,310
Speaker 2: discover as we do our work over the years, you know,

833
00:45:27,350 --> 00:45:29,189
Speaker 2: and as we go on these journeys that we've talked

834
00:45:29,210 --> 00:45:33,230
Speaker 2: about this whole time, is that growth looks like that

835
00:45:33,750 --> 00:45:37,029
Speaker 2: grounding that allows us to say, here's where I am.

836
00:45:37,250 --> 00:45:39,489
Speaker 2: You might not be here, and that's okay. And also,

837
00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 2: I haven't figured it out yet, or I'm not at

838
00:45:41,980 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 2: the finish line, and I get to remain connected to you.

839
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 2: And that takes some maturity. I mean, mutuality, right? Not

840
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,569
Speaker 2: everyone is capable of a relationship like that, but that's

841
00:45:52,630 --> 00:45:54,350
Speaker 2: in the last part of the book where I'm talking

842
00:45:54,370 --> 00:45:58,590
Speaker 2: about faith, hope, and love. And, um, and, and it's really,

843
00:45:58,670 --> 00:46:02,810
Speaker 2: it animates this way of, of loving this capacity to

844
00:46:02,890 --> 00:46:06,989
Speaker 2: love this capacity to move toward others with compassion. It's

845
00:46:07,010 --> 00:46:12,390
Speaker 2: this work that we do that allows us to show up, uh, grounded, connected,

846
00:46:13,090 --> 00:46:15,810
Speaker 2: rooted in the ways that Paul talks about in Ephesians

847
00:46:15,890 --> 00:46:20,730
Speaker 2: chapters three, um, and yet able to sort of cross

848
00:46:20,810 --> 00:46:23,930
Speaker 2: the bridge to the other side and, uh, connect to

849
00:46:23,969 --> 00:46:27,089
Speaker 2: someone else authentically. And I think, um, we can only

850
00:46:28,130 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: show true empathy if we remain grounded ourselves, you know? Um, if, if,

851
00:46:34,850 --> 00:46:37,710
Speaker 2: if we don't have that capacity to remain grounded, we'll

852
00:46:37,750 --> 00:46:41,270
Speaker 2: lose ourselves and others, uh, and we'll probably burn out

853
00:46:41,370 --> 00:46:44,830
Speaker 2: doing it. Right. And so I just found in this

854
00:46:45,070 --> 00:46:49,589
Speaker 2: work that, um, You know, as we grow in that capacity,

855
00:46:49,650 --> 00:46:52,489
Speaker 2: which is grounded in some of the other capacities that

856
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 2: I named the book, there's a sense that the fruit

857
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,739
Speaker 2: of that is seen in our systems. You know, I

858
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,980
Speaker 2: talked about the differentiated leader being a tuning fork within

859
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:09,620
Speaker 2: a system. In other words, if you've ever gone to

860
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: an orchestra concert, you know, there's that lead violinist you

861
00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 2: know plays the tuning note or something like that and

862
00:47:16,100 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 2: you know we need we need that kind of person

863
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,500
Speaker 2: and we we realize in unhealthy systems how significant an

864
00:47:23,620 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 2: unhealthy leader is within within that uh you know that

865
00:47:27,180 --> 00:47:29,779
Speaker 2: within that structure system this is the kind of person

866
00:47:29,820 --> 00:47:32,339
Speaker 2: who shows up as the tuning fork and is able

867
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,210
Speaker 2: to invite in people into something more beautiful.

868
00:47:36,450 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 1: So good Well, Chuck, I really feel like I could

869
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: talk to you forever. I mean, we barely scratched the

870
00:47:42,940 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: surface of this. As I was going through your book,

871
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,420
Speaker 1: it's called Who You're Becoming. As I was going through it,

872
00:47:49,420 --> 00:47:51,859
Speaker 1: I was realizing there's so much here. And there's only

873
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,180
Speaker 1: so many questions I can ask in a 45-minute conversation.

874
00:47:55,739 --> 00:47:57,430
Speaker 1: So I just encourage people to get the book. There's

875
00:47:57,489 --> 00:48:00,190
Speaker 1: so much richness in here. So you get the passion

876
00:48:00,230 --> 00:48:02,489
Speaker 1: of Chuck, his beautiful pastoral voice, but all of his

877
00:48:02,550 --> 00:48:05,650
Speaker 1: brain as well. But what's really cool is the chapters

878
00:48:05,710 --> 00:48:09,779
Speaker 1: have these beautiful gray sections that are full of practices

879
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:12,940
Speaker 1: and journaling questions. So you're not just telling us stuff.

880
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,170
Speaker 1: You're helping us make our way into what you're saying.

881
00:48:15,190 --> 00:48:19,940
Speaker 2: It's like a workbook in one. Exactly.

882
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,580
Speaker 1: So this is a beautiful book, and I am so

883
00:48:22,620 --> 00:48:24,420
Speaker 1: glad I had a chance to talk to you. So

884
00:48:24,500 --> 00:48:25,220
Speaker 1: thank you again.

885
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm so glad Alan wasn't here. Tell him that. Oh, yeah.

886
00:48:28,260 --> 00:48:28,859
Speaker 1: I'll tell him.

887
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: Stay away. I want to hang out with Jem. Yeah,

888
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,779
Speaker 2: it's really good to be with you, Jim, and to

889
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,230
Speaker 2: spend some time with you. And I wish it was

890
00:48:39,290 --> 00:48:42,149
Speaker 2: like less hurried. We were sitting in one another's living

891
00:48:42,190 --> 00:48:44,170
Speaker 2: rooms and just talking about these. Oh my gosh.

892
00:48:44,370 --> 00:48:46,609
Speaker 1: I have a feeling if we, Alan and I came

893
00:48:46,690 --> 00:48:49,070
Speaker 1: over and we have an amazing conversation with you and

894
00:48:49,090 --> 00:48:49,770
Speaker 1: your wife.

895
00:48:49,790 --> 00:48:52,430
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Be really cool. Thanks for the time.

896
00:48:52,450 --> 00:48:54,430
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you as well.

897
00:48:54,820 --> 00:48:55,050
Speaker 2: Yeah.

898
00:48:55,610 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me on the Unhurried Living podcast.

899
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 1: You can download free resources and learn more about us

900
00:49:01,060 --> 00:49:04,850
Speaker 1: at unhurriedliving.com. And please subscribe and share this podcast with

901
00:49:04,890 --> 00:49:08,140
Speaker 1: your friends and colleagues. We'd also like to thank our partner,

902
00:49:08,219 --> 00:49:12,460
Speaker 1: Life Audio. Check out their other faith-centered podcasts at lifeaudio.com.

903
00:49:12,820 --> 00:49:14,549
Speaker 1: Blessings to you as you make your way.