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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Dr.

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Speaker 2: James Spencer.

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Speaker 1: Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways

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Speaker 1: God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural,

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Speaker 1: and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now,

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Speaker 1: on to today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome

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Speaker 1: to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. James Spencer

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Speaker 1: and I'm joined today by Dr. Veronica Roberts-Ogle. And she

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Speaker 1: is the author of a book called Politics and the

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Speaker 1: Earthly City in Augustine's City of God. And we're going

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Speaker 1: to be discussing today that book as well as just

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Speaker 1: the City of God more generally. I first heard about

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Speaker 1: this book and about Dr. Ogle on the Civitas podcast,

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Speaker 1: which I think you, you know, peered on a year

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Speaker 1: and a half ago now or something like that. But

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Speaker 1: that was my first introduction. I read the book, love

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Speaker 1: the book, really helpful framing of Augustine. And so I'm

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Speaker 1: excited to have Veronica on the podcast.

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Speaker 2: So welcome.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you. It's wonderful to be here. I'm

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Speaker 3: glad that you got to follow that podcast. They're really

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Speaker 3: great over there.

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Speaker 1: They really are. Yeah, I enjoy so much. I think

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Speaker 1: they give me more reading material than any other podcast

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Speaker 1: I listen to.

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Speaker 2: And so really helpful.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, glad we can make this happen. Why don't

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Speaker 1: we just start out a little bit by you telling

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about yourself and what got you

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Speaker 1: into Augustine?

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Speaker 3: Sure. So I am Veronica Ogle. I teach at Villanova University.

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Speaker 3: which happens to be an Augustinian school. So it was

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Speaker 3: founded by the Order of St. Augustine. And we're all

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Speaker 3: very excited because we have one of our graduates is

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Speaker 3: currently the Pope. So I was really excited. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: So we're all rooting for Pope Leo over here. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: so I'm really so grateful to be here because Augustine

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Speaker 3: has really been an important figure in my life, even

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Speaker 3: from the very beginning. I remember when I was a

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Speaker 3: freshman in college reading the Confessions and really been taken

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Speaker 3: with the idea that our heart is restless until it

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Speaker 3: rests in God. And as an 18-year-old, this sense of

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Speaker 3: the restlessness of my own heart and kind of drawing

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Speaker 3: attention to that and giving meaning to that and directing that.

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Speaker 3: So I feel like Augustine has been part of my

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Speaker 3: journey for a really long time now. And Yeah, I

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Speaker 3: ended up in graduate school deciding to write my dissertation

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Speaker 3: on Augustine's City of God. I ended up studying political

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Speaker 3: theory over at Notre Dame. But it was really the

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Speaker 3: same thing. The way in which Augustine reads the human

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Speaker 3: heart or holds up a mirror to the human heart,

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Speaker 3: I've always just found so illuminating for the human experience.

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Speaker 3: I really think he's really wise, and there's a lot–

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Speaker 3: just existentially that I constantly am returning to and chewing

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Speaker 3: on from his thoughts. So yeah, it's been a long

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Speaker 3: journey with Augustine and I'm glad that I get to

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Speaker 3: teach it to freshmen now because Augustine is very integrated

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Speaker 3: into our program here at Villanova.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I will say I came to Augustine later. I'm an

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Speaker 1: Old Testament guy, but discovered Augustine doing research on structural evil.

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Speaker 1: And some of the way that he talks about, you know,

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Speaker 1: these offices that pull glory away from God and that

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Speaker 1: almost require it to. surfaced as I was doing some

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Speaker 1: of that research and really amazing. They got reintroduced to him,

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Speaker 1: I suppose, when we went to Germany and were in

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Speaker 1: Erfurt and went to the Augustinian monastery where Luther studied. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So really fantastic character. And I've always been fascinated with

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Speaker 1: his thought introduced through the confessions, very much like you

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Speaker 1: were and then sort of moved into the city of God,

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Speaker 1: which is more where we'll focus today and, but tell

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Speaker 1: people a little bit about what is the city of God?

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Speaker 1: Like why would Augustine write it? How is it situated

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Speaker 1: within his sort of life and context and thought?

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Um, well, it's a really interesting story. So, uh,

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Speaker 3: people sort of say that Augustine lived at the very

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Speaker 3: end of the Roman empire in the West, right? So

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Speaker 3: he dies as Carthage is being overtaken by the Visigoths. Um,

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Speaker 3: So this sort of penetration of the borders of the

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Speaker 3: Roman Empire, the sort of contraction of it, the moving

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Speaker 3: towards Constantinople as its center base, all of this is

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Speaker 3: really happening during Augustine's life. So the big marker, the

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Speaker 3: big impetus for the city of God itself was back

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Speaker 3: in 410 when Rome was sacked by the Visigoths, so

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Speaker 3: Alaric and his troops, had um penetrated the gates of

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Speaker 3: the city and this just was a psychologically crushing moment

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Speaker 3: for the romans it had been i think 800 years

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Speaker 3: since any invading force had actually penetrated the walls of

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Speaker 3: the city so think about like 9 11 and just

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Speaker 3: take it to the next level you know um so Jerome, St.

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Speaker 3: Jerome is, is just going out of his mind here. And,

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Speaker 3: and people are sort of trying to figure out, well,

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Speaker 3: what does this mean? Why did this happen? So it's,

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Speaker 3: it's a cultural moment of, we thought we were invincible.

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Speaker 3: You know, we are the great Roman empire. What do

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Speaker 3: we do now? What is the cause of this? And so,

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Speaker 3: you know, if you think about it, Constantine had, you know,

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Speaker 3: half a century earlier, converted, made the religion of the

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Speaker 3: empire Christianity. And so part of the thinking amongst a certain,

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Speaker 3: probably the Senate class of the Romans is, well, that's

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Speaker 3: the cause. You know, that Christianity is not capable of

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Speaker 3: maintaining the kinds of civic virtues that Roman religion had cultivated.

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Speaker 3: So there's that argument going around kind of amongst the population.

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Speaker 3: There's people that say, well, we offended the gods. They

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Speaker 3: abandoned us. And that is why the gates of the

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Speaker 3: city were penetrated. And the Christian god doesn't protect like

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Speaker 3: the Roman gods did. And so all of this, the

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Speaker 3: Christians at this time, you know, they're kind of getting scapegoated.

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Speaker 3: And they're also trying to make sense of things because

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Speaker 3: if you think about it with Constantine, there was for

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Speaker 3: a moment kind of this high, right? Like we're in

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Speaker 3: Christian times now and God has providentially converted the Roman emperor.

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Speaker 3: And this means that he's going to use the Roman

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Speaker 3: empire to, you know, convert the world. And he's going

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Speaker 3: to protect us, of course. So, what do we do now?

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Speaker 3: You know, there were a lot of atrocities, people pouring

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Speaker 3: out of the city of Rome with these horror stories,

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Speaker 3: you know, of, you know, family members being killed, being raped,

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Speaker 3: everything being taken from them, all pouring into North Africa.

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Speaker 3: It's a real crisis moment. It's a real crisis moment.

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Speaker 3: And we have homilies that Augustine gives at the time

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Speaker 3: that are really kind of the beginning, the seed of

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Speaker 3: his whole city of God. So he starts writing the

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Speaker 3: actual text, let's say three, three years later. And it

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Speaker 3: takes him, I think all the way until four 26.

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Speaker 3: So he starts writing in four 13, take it all

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Speaker 3: the way until four 26 to finish the thing. Cause it's,

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Speaker 3: it's like a doorstopper raised 22 books. Um, but he

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Speaker 3: kind of lets it out in bit by bit. So he,

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Speaker 3: he gives it in five, five book chunks to people. And, uh,

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Speaker 3: he says, Hey, did you read it? Did you think

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Speaker 3: it was helpful? You know? Um, But he's really meeting

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Speaker 3: a moment here. And so what does he have in mind?

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Speaker 3: He kind of has to take the Christians who are

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Speaker 3: sort of expecting a kind of temporal protection from God.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you could say under a sort of pagan model

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Speaker 3: of what the gods do. This is what the Christian

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Speaker 3: God is supposed to do too. And he has to

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Speaker 3: kind of zoom out in a really big way to

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Speaker 3: sort of say, well, what is this story about? of

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Speaker 3: salvation history? What is the story of human history? How

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Speaker 3: are these things related to one another? And how do

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Speaker 3: they help us get perspective on the moment in which

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Speaker 3: we find ourselves? So that's really what the City of

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Speaker 3: God is. It's an attempt to kind of give perspective

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Speaker 3: in a crisis moment that I think, while it's incredibly timely,

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Speaker 3: especially for then, but I would say also for now.

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Speaker 3: It's also timeless because he's zooming out of this crisis

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Speaker 3: moment to give this kind of overarching perspective from the

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Speaker 3: perspective of scripture as to why things are the way

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Speaker 3: that they are. Challenging, I think, the expectations both of

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Speaker 3: the pagan readers, but also the Christian readers. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's interesting. So I came to your work having

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Speaker 1: started to write on Christian nationalism. And one of the

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Speaker 1: sort of, I don't know whether I'll call it like

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Speaker 1: a trend or a tendency within Christian nationalism, but it

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Speaker 1: felt like it resonates so well with the sort of

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Speaker 1: perspectives that Augustine is addressing early on. That there's this

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Speaker 1: notion somehow that, and the way I approached it was, hey,

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Speaker 1: Christian nation doesn't mean the same thing we mean when

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Speaker 1: we say Christian doctrine or Christian worship. Like we're using

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Speaker 1: this term really flexibly. And if we carry over the

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Speaker 1: concepts of what we mean by Christian worship or Christian

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Speaker 1: doctrine back into Christian nation, we're really losing something. We're

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Speaker 1: missing an essential characteristic that I would call, that I

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Speaker 1: would say is Christ in Christian nation. Christian nation doesn't

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Speaker 1: make Christ essential. And there's a line in your book

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Speaker 1: that you write when you're talking about Augustine and And

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Speaker 1: this is, I think, an important concept that you develop

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Speaker 1: in the book is that we shouldn't be demonizing the nations.

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Speaker 1: And these are my words, not yours, but we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be demonizing the nations, but we shouldn't be venerating them either.

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Speaker 1: And the way you phrase it is something like, you know,

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Speaker 1: political entities, political structures and organization can make a society

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Speaker 1: healthier or sicker. but it can't transform a society from

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Speaker 1: being the city of man to being the city of God.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a fair paraphrase, hopefully, but maybe you

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Speaker 1: could comment a little on that because I think it's

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Speaker 1: a really crucial point that Augustine is not saying that

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Speaker 1: the city of man is the worst thing ever developed.

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Speaker 1: And it's, it's like, you know, it's not, you know,

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Speaker 1: Dante's Inferno or something, right? Where you have, you know,

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Speaker 1: sort of this clear polarization between the city of God

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Speaker 1: as the demonic realm and the city of, or I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: the city of man as the demonic realm and the

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Speaker 1: city of God as the divine realm. There is some,

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Speaker 1: there's a real respect for the city of man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. So this is probably some background. So I

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Speaker 3: was kind of giving the context for how he writes it.

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Speaker 3: How does he end up giving this perspective? he does

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Speaker 3: it exactly as you say, through this idea of there

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Speaker 3: being these two cities and these two cities that kind

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Speaker 3: of reach after, you know, we call it like eschatological.

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Speaker 3: So after time in, in, in eternity, we'll end up

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Speaker 3: having these two cities. One is, is venturing towards life

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Speaker 3: with communion with God forever, right? That's the city of God.

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Speaker 3: And then you've got the earthly city, which you call

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Speaker 3: the city of man, same thing, which is, if it

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Speaker 3: keeps on its own trajectory, will end up, you know,

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Speaker 3: in the inferno. So he has these two kind of

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Speaker 3: eschatological categories, these two types of cities, the archetypal cities,

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Speaker 3: and he's kind of telling a story about what it

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Speaker 3: looks like in time where these two cities are living

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Speaker 3: side by side. So then the question that's really interesting is, well,

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Speaker 3: what are these two cities? And so what you're talking

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Speaker 3: about with this, the city of man, there's two things

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Speaker 3: going on here because on the one hand, he's got

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Speaker 3: this kind of like archetypal idea of the earthly city

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Speaker 3: or the city of man. And I'll talk about that

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Speaker 3: in a minute. And then he's also sort of talking

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Speaker 3: about political communities. Yeah. And so in my work, he

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Speaker 3: uses the same term, earthly city, Civitas Turina for both.

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Speaker 3: So what is the relationship between those two things? But

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Speaker 3: exactly as you're saying, when he's talking about political communities,

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Speaker 3: what he's saying is there's a temptation to turn them

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Speaker 3: into something like a sacred state. And it demands worship.

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Speaker 3: It tends to be a totalizing horizon that gives us

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Speaker 3: our worldview. It is our whole world. And it doesn't

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Speaker 3: really let itself be permeated by something transcendent. And that's

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Speaker 3: the danger of political community. But he says that that

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Speaker 3: danger actually comes from the dynamics of this archetypal earthly

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Speaker 3: city kind of occupying and shaping and making claims about

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Speaker 3: what political life looks like. So maybe to back up

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Speaker 3: a little bit, the city of God is called the

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Speaker 3: city of God because that's its main focus, but then

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Speaker 3: there's also this story that he's telling about the earthly city.

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Speaker 3: So just for basic things, what are these two cities?

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Speaker 3: On the one hand, he says, These two cities are

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Speaker 3: created by two kinds of love. And the city of

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Speaker 3: God is created by God's love carried as far as

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Speaker 3: towards contempt of self. And then he says the earthly

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Speaker 3: city is created by self-love reaching as far as contempt

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Speaker 3: for God. Which is really, really interesting because if you

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Speaker 3: think about it, like the city of God, when he

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Speaker 3: says it's created by divine love that is carried as

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Speaker 3: far as contempt of self, this language of carrying, of course,

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Speaker 3: evokes the cross. So the city of God is created

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Speaker 3: not by our love for God, but rather by God's

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Speaker 3: love for us. It's God's love that brings this community

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Speaker 3: into being. And God carries the cross. so that we

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Speaker 3: might be able to come back into that city. So

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Speaker 3: that's kind of the first thing. So there's this city

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Speaker 3: that was created at the very beginning with the angels.

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Speaker 3: We were created to live in that city, to be

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Speaker 3: in communion with God. We fall away from that. The

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Speaker 3: cross is our, you know, path back to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: That's, that's the city of God. And then we've got

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Speaker 3: the earthly city, which he says is created out of

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Speaker 3: a kind of self love, which is sort of so

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Speaker 3: bloated that it reaches the, so far that it even

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Speaker 3: wants to reject God's love, this sort of contempt for

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Speaker 3: God that comes out of self-love here. So there's that,

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Speaker 3: the city, what kind of community would self-love create? And

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Speaker 3: that's when he's talking about the earthly city, a lot

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Speaker 3: of the things that he's pointing out is what kind

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Speaker 3: of behaviors, what kind of community life follow from this

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Speaker 3: form of self-love, this selfish self-love that is contemptuous of.

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Speaker 3: of God and of gift and of all of that.

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Speaker 3: So then when he's talking about political life, he's pointing

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Speaker 3: out that our political communities are really, really shaped by

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Speaker 3: this self-love that we have. And so then when you're

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Speaker 3: talking about sort of like Christian nationalism and maybe the

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Speaker 3: lack of center in Christ, in a certain way, you're

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Speaker 3: sort of asking this question about, well, where does political

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Speaker 3: life lie when you're talking about these two archetypal cities. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I think, you know, the idea of the city

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Speaker 3: of God being on pilgrimage, you know, that's a community.

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Speaker 3: And in what way might it dwell within a political community? Well,

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Speaker 3: it's only going to dwell within it as a pilgrim.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And so I think that that makes the sort of

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Speaker 3: attempt to grasp it or to reify it or to

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Speaker 3: turn it into a useful ideology for political purposes. Like,

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Speaker 3: That's where the dynamics of self-love almost kind of co-opt

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Speaker 3: or take into itself in a way that seems useful.

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Speaker 3: The gifts that are given as pilgrim gifts in a

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Speaker 3: certain sense. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting to think through. I mean, I think one

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Speaker 1: thing I want to explore a little bit is contempt

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Speaker 1: of self, just to sort of clarify that concept for people.

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Speaker 1: Because I think it can read as... while we really

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Speaker 1: hate ourselves. And I'm not sure, I'm not exactly sure

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Speaker 1: that's what, I'm pretty sure that's not what Augustine's doing

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Speaker 1: with it. So can you kind of dive into that

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Speaker 1: a little bit and then maybe we'll pivot back to

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Speaker 1: these political entities and how they square the political societies

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Speaker 1: and how they square with city of man, city of

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Speaker 1: God kind of concept. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: That's, that's, that's an important clarification. So Augustine, maybe this

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Speaker 3: kind of hit the news that, In the last year

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Speaker 3: or so, he has this idea of an ordo amoris

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Speaker 3: or an order of loves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So for Augustine, the real fundamental thing when he's

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Speaker 3: talking about the order of loves is he thinks at bottom,

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Speaker 3: we love everything. We're called upon to love everything in God.

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Speaker 3: Everything in God. we see fundamentally as a gift from

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Speaker 3: God that is loved as a gift from God. So

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Speaker 3: everything is oriented, referred back to God. All of the

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Speaker 3: beauty of creation, all of those people that we love,

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Speaker 3: the peace of our nation, everything is gift fundamentally from God.

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Speaker 3: So we can love everything in God because everything is

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Speaker 3: created in God that can participate in that love. So

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Speaker 3: the order of Morris is, do we love everything in God?

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Speaker 3: So that would be loving things in Amorde, love of God. Or,

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Speaker 3: and this is the temptation, and this is the fallen condition,

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Speaker 3: is we tend to reject God and to love everything

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Speaker 3: in self-love. So the choice fundamentally is to love things

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Speaker 3: in God or to love things in ourselves. What value

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Speaker 3: do I will this to have? I will, you know,

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Speaker 3: my husband to be this way and to do all

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Speaker 3: these things for me. And so I love him in myself,

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Speaker 3: kind of in a spirit of self-love. So that's kind

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Speaker 3: of the fundamental choice. Do we love things in God

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Speaker 3: as they are as gifts, or do we love them

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Speaker 3: as we want them to be for us, for ourselves?

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Speaker 3: So when he's talking about this kind of contempt of self,

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Speaker 3: it's really, am I willing to to let go of

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Speaker 3: what I want these things to be and to love them,

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Speaker 3: to refer them to God? So if you remember, you know,

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Speaker 3: in scripture, Jesus says, you know, unless you hate your

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Speaker 3: father and your mother, it's the same thing, right? You know,

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Speaker 3: it's you follow me first, right? And then there will

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Speaker 3: be room for your father and your mother. But if

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Speaker 3: you put your father and your mother before me, you're

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Speaker 3: really putting yourself before me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: That's the idea here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was struck by, and I don't remember where

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Speaker 1: it is in Augustine at all, but he has this

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Speaker 1: image of, I think it's like a stream or a

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Speaker 1: current that's flowing. And the current is, he refers to it,

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Speaker 1: I think, as the current of God's love. And everything

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Speaker 1: else flows along in that current. And just the image

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Speaker 1: that it brings to mind and the way I usually

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Speaker 1: try to explain this to people is it's not a sequential.

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Speaker 2: First, I love God. Second, I love family.

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Speaker 1: Third, I love nation, which is often the way you

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Speaker 1: hear it in more popular treatments. And I think even

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Speaker 1: when Vice President Vance is sort of advanced that he

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Speaker 1: tends to describe it in that way. Yeah. The way

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Speaker 1: I like to think of it is it's almost like

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Speaker 1: going scuba diving. You know, you're so immersed in God's

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Speaker 1: love that your movements, your communication, your everything has changed.

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Speaker 1: You're now, you know, sort of moving and thinking and

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Speaker 1: breathing on in terms of the water that you're immersed in.

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Speaker 1: And that is how it's meant to function as love

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Speaker 1: of God is this immersive thing that we're in. And

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Speaker 1: it now changes the terms of our engagement so that

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Speaker 1: we have to shift.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. That's exactly right. So, I mean, a part

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Speaker 3: of it has to do with a kind of loss

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Speaker 3: of platonic metaphysical framework, you know, so you've got, you know,

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Speaker 3: this idea of participation. So God being the world of

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Speaker 3: becoming participates in, in a partial way that which God

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Speaker 3: is fully. And so, so this idea of loving in

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Speaker 3: God is precisely that, that, that, um, yeah, I like

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Speaker 3: this image of swimming, swimming in. So everything is, is

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Speaker 3: in God. It's not that God is first and then

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Speaker 3: a discreet compartmentalized second thing is next.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no.

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Speaker 3: Everything is in that first thing. So if we love

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Speaker 3: things in ourselves, then we make ourselves this first thing,

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Speaker 3: but then everything, you know, goes awry because we are

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Speaker 3: not being itself where we're this limited, limited thing, which

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Speaker 3: means we distort everything around us. There's not room for

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Speaker 3: everything as it is. in ourselves, there only is room

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Speaker 3: for that in God.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's not a pie chart where like God gets 99%

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Speaker 1: and then you have this 1% that everything itself, like

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Speaker 1: it's an all encompassing framework. And so you have to

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Speaker 1: have a different image of it than a priority list.

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Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. It's not a priority list. That's right.

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Speaker 1: So when we think about, when, when we think about

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Speaker 1: Augustine's view then of the political society's, Right. He seems

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Speaker 1: to suggest that there is a way to organize political

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Speaker 1: society so that it is more aligned with God's established order,

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Speaker 1: but still bending away from it in the, in the

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Speaker 1: eschatology in the, either in the short term, longterm or

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Speaker 1: eschatological sense. And so there is a, There's a way

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Speaker 1: of organizing ourselves that recognizes aspects of God's order and

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Speaker 1: allows maybe God's goodness to shine through our political arrangements.

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Speaker 1: But ultimately, then in those political arrangements, they're just too

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Speaker 1: narrow because they're bracketing out God. They can't fully see

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Speaker 1: or accept God's self-disclosure in a way that the church does.

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Speaker 1: Is that a fair rendering?

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Speaker 3: So the church, he doesn't really distinguish between the church

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Speaker 3: and the pilgrim city. So the city of God on

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Speaker 3: earth really is, for him, the church that is pilgriming

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Speaker 3: towards its eternal home with God. And so that community,

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Speaker 3: he says, is founded by Christ. It's founded by Christ,

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Speaker 3: by divine love. And in that way, it's a really

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Speaker 3: fundamentally different type of community than any political community, because

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Speaker 3: all political communities are based on human initiative. And that

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Speaker 3: might be a sort of like natural coming together of families.

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Speaker 3: It might be very organic. And even so, it's founded

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Speaker 3: by human beings.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 3: It comes it's within the natural order of things. And

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Speaker 3: so that means that the church is just a, it's

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Speaker 3: a different type of community. It is bound together in

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Speaker 3: love of God from its very beginning because Christ, the

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Speaker 3: head binds together all of his members and he's purifying them,

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Speaker 3: gathering them back together over the course of time so that,

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Speaker 3: you know, in eternity, they will be, God will be

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Speaker 3: all in all. But a political community does not actually

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Speaker 3: have an eschatological telos, right? There is no, it's simply

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Speaker 3: a temporal arrangement of a group of people seeking earthly

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Speaker 3: peace together. How do we live together in a state

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Speaker 3: of peace and time? And so it's a different type

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Speaker 3: of thing. It's a human project. And the people within

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Speaker 3: that project can do it in a spirit of, I

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Speaker 3: love earthly peace in light of heavenly peace, which means

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Speaker 3: it's just the same thing about the swimming in water, right? Like,

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Speaker 3: do I view my economic structures? Do I view the

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Speaker 3: food that we cultivate in our community? Whatever. All these things,

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Speaker 3: these material benefits that we have, do I view those

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Speaker 3: in light of something higher or greater? Do I love

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Speaker 3: these things in light of something higher or greater? And

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Speaker 3: to the degree that the members of the political community

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Speaker 3: love the things that constitute earthly peace in light of

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Speaker 3: heavenly peace, those things that they share here and now

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Speaker 3: will become more shared and more shareable, which would mean

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Speaker 3: the political community would be more just and there would be,

431
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,260
Speaker 3: in fact, a more true form of peace here and now.

432
00:26:15,970 --> 00:26:20,389
Speaker 3: But he really thinks it depends on the loves of

433
00:26:20,430 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 3: the people involved. And there are things get really complicated

434
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,680
Speaker 3: because it's not enough to say that I'm a Christian

435
00:26:27,859 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 3: and I claim to love things in light of heavenly peace. Actually,

436
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,490
Speaker 3: it has to be the true case, right? Like what

437
00:26:34,550 --> 00:26:37,330
Speaker 3: matters is not what you say about your loves. What

438
00:26:37,390 --> 00:26:41,220
Speaker 3: matters is how do you love these things? And there

439
00:26:41,260 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 3: cannot be a compartmentalization. So I've got my economic life

440
00:26:44,540 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 3: over here and my church life over here. All of

441
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,100
Speaker 3: these things have to be loved in God. And he

442
00:26:51,140 --> 00:26:54,220
Speaker 3: says this is very difficult. And so he's not a

443
00:26:54,270 --> 00:26:56,570
Speaker 3: real optimist when it comes to politics. He thinks that

444
00:26:56,609 --> 00:27:01,610
Speaker 3: our political communities are constantly wounded, constantly weighed down by

445
00:27:01,710 --> 00:27:07,750
Speaker 3: selfish self-love. Yeah. Which means that when we make agreements...

446
00:27:07,940 --> 00:27:11,060
Speaker 3: or like a consensus about what earthly peace looks like,

447
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 3: we're often keeping things for ourselves that love would probably

448
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:22,260
Speaker 3: tell us not to keep for ourselves. And so there's

449
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,170
Speaker 3: this sort of tragic perpetual woundedness. He thinks we're constantly

450
00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:29,869
Speaker 3: wounding our political communities by the actions that we do

451
00:27:29,970 --> 00:27:35,730
Speaker 3: out of self-love. But he does say that part of

452
00:27:35,790 --> 00:27:38,590
Speaker 3: the mission, part of the vocation of a Christian is

453
00:27:40,369 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 3: to reveal, bear witness to what it means to love

454
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 3: earthly peace in light of heavenly peace. So that's a

455
00:27:49,260 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 3: mission for the whole church, to love these things. Even

456
00:27:52,980 --> 00:27:55,460
Speaker 3: say you're in office and if you, what would it

457
00:27:55,520 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 3: mean to love your power in light of heavenly peace?

458
00:28:00,570 --> 00:28:03,150
Speaker 3: And he has this really interesting example where he spends

459
00:28:03,190 --> 00:28:06,990
Speaker 3: a long time talking about the emperor Theodosius. And he

460
00:28:07,010 --> 00:28:09,050
Speaker 3: kind of gives a sort of mirror of princes where

461
00:28:09,070 --> 00:28:12,030
Speaker 3: he says he did this thing and he shared all

462
00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:13,850
Speaker 3: the money that they got or he shared all the

463
00:28:13,869 --> 00:28:18,270
Speaker 3: gold that they got. And he forgave the political enemies.

464
00:28:18,390 --> 00:28:21,169
Speaker 3: And he has this whole vignette of what would it

465
00:28:21,250 --> 00:28:26,429
Speaker 3: actually look like to not love power and selfish self-love.

466
00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 3: It's a kind of almost... it's not attached to it

467
00:28:31,660 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 3: in a certain sense.

468
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:32,980
Speaker 2: Right.

469
00:28:33,020 --> 00:28:33,300
Speaker 1: Yeah.

470
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:34,340
Speaker 2: Understood.

471
00:28:35,940 --> 00:28:40,430
Speaker 1: So when we think about, I think this is, uh,

472
00:28:40,650 --> 00:28:42,229
Speaker 1: this is a real question for me cause I kind

473
00:28:42,250 --> 00:28:45,010
Speaker 1: of get confused on it. So the church and the

474
00:28:45,030 --> 00:28:47,310
Speaker 1: city of God are two different things. Am I right

475
00:28:47,330 --> 00:28:47,670
Speaker 1: about that?

476
00:28:48,970 --> 00:28:51,450
Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of scholarly debate about that. Um,

477
00:28:52,100 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 3: I think Augustine doesn't, here's what he says. He says that, um,

478
00:28:58,970 --> 00:29:06,020
Speaker 3: The pilgrim church is on a journey towards his eschatological destiny.

479
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: Okay.

480
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 3: And that is as bride of Christ, you know, to

481
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 3: become one in Christ towards the beatific vision, the enjoyment

482
00:29:15,020 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 3: of God and of one another in God. So the church,

483
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 3: he says, is already the body of Christ. The church

484
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,620
Speaker 3: is already the bride of Christ. However, it needs to

485
00:29:25,660 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 3: be purified.

486
00:29:26,420 --> 00:29:26,500
Speaker 1: Yeah.

487
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,910
Speaker 3: So all of us on pilgrimage are in this process

488
00:29:32,030 --> 00:29:34,380
Speaker 3: of becoming purified.

489
00:29:34,380 --> 00:29:36,370
Speaker 1: Which is why he.

490
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,060
Speaker 3: Says that the the, the greatest activity, um, or the

491
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 3: greatest mark of, of, of the pilgrim churches task for forgiveness.

492
00:29:44,380 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

493
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,220
Speaker 3: Um, and that's really important. So one of the things

494
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,910
Speaker 3: he says about Theodosius is that he admit he did

495
00:29:49,950 --> 00:29:54,250
Speaker 3: something really bad politically. He like ordered a massacre. Wasn't good. Uh,

496
00:29:54,370 --> 00:29:57,900
Speaker 3: he gets excommunicated. He asked for forgiveness to the people that, um,

497
00:29:58,630 --> 00:30:00,930
Speaker 3: So that's a really important thing, this ability to ask

498
00:30:00,970 --> 00:30:05,210
Speaker 3: for forgiveness. So the whole pilgrim church is wounded. The

499
00:30:05,710 --> 00:30:08,490
Speaker 3: whole pilgrim church is in need of this healing that

500
00:30:08,530 --> 00:30:14,020
Speaker 3: only comes from God. He has this idea that the

501
00:30:14,180 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 3: visible church that we see is a sort of sacrament,

502
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 3: which points beyond itself to an invisible reality, but it's

503
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,570
Speaker 3: not separated from the invisible reality. It really is. the

504
00:30:27,610 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: church really is the invisible city of God, but it's

505
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,180
Speaker 3: a sacrament. So it points beyond itself to, to that

506
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,770
Speaker 3: deeper reality that it is, but it's not fully right. So,

507
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,170
Speaker 3: so the church for him, all this to say within

508
00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:48,670
Speaker 3: the body of the visible church, it's possible to participate

509
00:30:49,390 --> 00:30:55,860
Speaker 3: in the sacramental life of the church only by explicitly

510
00:30:56,060 --> 00:31:00,900
Speaker 3: and not also within the heart, right? So you could,

511
00:31:01,020 --> 00:31:07,260
Speaker 3: for example, be baptized. You could, for example, receive the Eucharist,

512
00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:11,220
Speaker 3: all these things, live within the liturgical life of the church,

513
00:31:11,340 --> 00:31:15,500
Speaker 3: go to church. And yet it's possible to do those

514
00:31:15,580 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 3: things only externally and not also internally. And he says

515
00:31:21,900 --> 00:31:29,650
Speaker 3: that we just don't know whether or not, um, people

516
00:31:29,690 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 3: that we see in the, in the, in the community of,

517
00:31:33,470 --> 00:31:37,950
Speaker 3: of our parish, our church will all be together, uh,

518
00:31:39,110 --> 00:31:42,550
Speaker 3: enjoying God and each other in God. Right. So there's

519
00:31:42,590 --> 00:31:45,390
Speaker 3: a sort of like unknowingness of whether even we, you know,

520
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:49,230
Speaker 3: we ourselves, we hope, right. Like God is faithful. There's

521
00:31:49,290 --> 00:31:53,250
Speaker 3: no one he's, you know, no one, he doesn't desire, uh,

522
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,980
Speaker 3: anyone to fall away from him. God is constantly extending

523
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,330
Speaker 3: his grace to us. And yet there remains the possibility

524
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,390
Speaker 3: to say no. There remains the possibility to feign things, right?

525
00:32:07,030 --> 00:32:10,330
Speaker 3: And so God knows the heart. And as much as

526
00:32:10,370 --> 00:32:14,050
Speaker 3: he is continually offering grace, continually offering grace, it is

527
00:32:14,110 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 3: possible for us to say no to that grace. And

528
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,660
Speaker 3: so in the visible church, it may be that there

529
00:32:18,700 --> 00:32:22,740
Speaker 3: are people walking within the community of this visible church

530
00:32:22,780 --> 00:32:25,390
Speaker 3: that won't end up in the city of God.

531
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it really does seem to me. So that,

532
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,740
Speaker 1: that is the way I understand it. So I'm really

533
00:32:32,100 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: appreciate that explanation. That's how I was reading Augustine. Like

534
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:41,750
Speaker 1: the church is moving toward the city of God, but

535
00:32:41,870 --> 00:32:44,709
Speaker 1: you have to then make this distinction of true and false.

536
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,760
Speaker 1: false church, which I think rings true with like what

537
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: we're reading in Hebrews, for instance, that there's assurance of

538
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,900
Speaker 1: salvation so long as there's an endurance of the saints

539
00:32:56,420 --> 00:32:59,700
Speaker 1: and like these sort of weird interconnections that you have

540
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,890
Speaker 1: to make in there. I think you see it gestured

541
00:33:01,950 --> 00:33:04,930
Speaker 1: in at first John, where he talks about if they

542
00:33:04,990 --> 00:33:07,810
Speaker 1: were really of us, they would not have gone out

543
00:33:07,930 --> 00:33:11,150
Speaker 1: from us. But what this assumes is that they were

544
00:33:11,950 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: part of the group. but then showed themselves not to

545
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,980
Speaker 1: be part of the group in their exit. And so you,

546
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,959
Speaker 1: you see this in the new Testament that there is

547
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: this tension and a recognition that, yeah, everybody's participating, but

548
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,350
Speaker 1: then at some points we see this sort of fracture

549
00:33:28,750 --> 00:33:31,210
Speaker 1: where people, you know, the leopard really shows its spots,

550
00:33:31,790 --> 00:33:37,090
Speaker 1: so to speak. And, and now we recognize something different. Yeah.

551
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:39,470
Speaker 3: And, you know, I mean, I think this, this story

552
00:33:39,950 --> 00:33:43,950
Speaker 3: of grace is a really complicated one because it, I

553
00:33:43,970 --> 00:33:49,610
Speaker 3: think it's possible to receive graces and then at a

554
00:33:49,650 --> 00:33:56,470
Speaker 3: certain point to reject them. It's sort of like this

555
00:33:57,060 --> 00:34:01,100
Speaker 3: cling to me always, says Christ. Don't be presumptive that

556
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:06,780
Speaker 3: you have clung to me. Things can atrophy. The life

557
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,940
Speaker 3: of the pilgrim is to constantly say, today I will

558
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,100
Speaker 3: cling to you again. Today I will cling to you again.

559
00:34:13,030 --> 00:34:16,190
Speaker 3: And so, so he doesn't linguistically, he does not distinguish

560
00:34:16,230 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 3: between the city of God on pilgrimage and the church that, that,

561
00:34:20,100 --> 00:34:22,299
Speaker 3: that is not a distinction that he makes, but he

562
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 3: does sort of say there's this tension between the unfolding

563
00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 3: of time and what will be gathered together in eternity.

564
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,700
Speaker 3: And so, so he really does want to emphasize like

565
00:34:32,820 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 3: be on guard, be on guard and make sure that

566
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 3: today you are, you, you continue to cling to, Continue

567
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,660
Speaker 3: to recognize that you are dependent on and need to

568
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,660
Speaker 3: receive grace from God to continue to walk with him.

569
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 3: So that's, I think, as a pastor, really important on

570
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,380
Speaker 3: his mind, this sort of way in which we can

571
00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 3: kind of rest on our laurels. You know, that's always

572
00:35:00,410 --> 00:35:00,969
Speaker 3: a bad idea.

573
00:35:03,710 --> 00:35:08,820
Speaker 1: When you think about. Obviously, political participation in the Roman

574
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,420
Speaker 1: Empire is going to be very different than what we have,

575
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 1: at least in the United States today. When Augustine thinks

576
00:35:17,300 --> 00:35:21,380
Speaker 1: about that political participation of this pilgrim community within the

577
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 1: Roman Empire, is there any sort of guidance you see

578
00:35:25,890 --> 00:35:29,110
Speaker 1: for Christians today, particularly Christians in the United States?

579
00:35:30,210 --> 00:35:34,870
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's actually perhaps... a helpful corrective because

580
00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:40,570
Speaker 3: sometimes I think we think of political participation as showing

581
00:35:40,650 --> 00:35:46,930
Speaker 3: up at the ballot box and discerning between different proposed

582
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:49,870
Speaker 3: policy platforms.

583
00:35:50,650 --> 00:35:51,850
Speaker 2: Yeah.

584
00:35:52,730 --> 00:35:55,430
Speaker 3: Which I think is sort of an illusion. I think

585
00:35:55,530 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 3: actually it's what, what Augustine is pointing out is always

586
00:36:00,910 --> 00:36:05,510
Speaker 3: true that political life is is the life of living

587
00:36:05,530 --> 00:36:12,210
Speaker 3: in pursuit of building, well, participating in the cultivation of

588
00:36:12,250 --> 00:36:16,270
Speaker 3: an earthly peace in a community. So political life really

589
00:36:16,489 --> 00:36:21,670
Speaker 3: is cultivating and nurturing the bonds that make possible earthly

590
00:36:21,730 --> 00:36:27,150
Speaker 3: peace within a real community. And we have lost that idea, right?

591
00:36:27,210 --> 00:36:29,850
Speaker 3: So if we sort of say that politics is something

592
00:36:29,910 --> 00:36:33,839
Speaker 3: very small where I pick between different platforms, once every

593
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 3: two or four years, we've forgotten that we as Americans

594
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 3: are constantly called upon to nurture and build thick ties

595
00:36:44,219 --> 00:36:48,009
Speaker 3: that perpetuate and teach the meaning of liberty from one

596
00:36:48,070 --> 00:36:52,410
Speaker 3: generation to the next. And it's hard to know what

597
00:36:52,450 --> 00:36:58,450
Speaker 3: genuine liberty is, right? We fall into visions of easy freedom, license,

598
00:36:58,570 --> 00:37:00,430
Speaker 3: things like this, things that you can buy, right? The

599
00:37:00,469 --> 00:37:01,250
Speaker 3: freedom to buy things.

600
00:37:02,250 --> 00:37:02,450
Speaker 1: Right.

601
00:37:03,010 --> 00:37:09,380
Speaker 3: However, genuine liberty, I think, is absolutely in harmony with

602
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:15,140
Speaker 3: thick responsibilities toward others and being dependent on one another.

603
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 3: And so Augustine shows us that actually our mission in

604
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,750
Speaker 3: political life is to build thick bonds of genuine liberty.

605
00:37:27,450 --> 00:37:30,610
Speaker 3: peace with one another. And that involves the way that

606
00:37:30,650 --> 00:37:34,290
Speaker 3: we live day in and day out. We are cultivating

607
00:37:34,730 --> 00:37:37,870
Speaker 3: a set of virtues alongside one another. We're living out

608
00:37:37,910 --> 00:37:40,370
Speaker 3: of those virtues. We're teaching people to trust one another,

609
00:37:40,410 --> 00:37:51,410
Speaker 3: that people can be trustworthy. We're showing what, why character matters.

610
00:37:51,489 --> 00:37:53,370
Speaker 3: I mean, all of these things I'm putting in the

611
00:37:53,410 --> 00:37:54,589
Speaker 3: language of civic.

612
00:37:54,330 --> 00:37:54,770
Speaker 1: Virtue, right?

613
00:37:54,790 --> 00:37:57,690
Speaker 3: Like why would this be important politically? There's more to

614
00:37:57,750 --> 00:38:01,930
Speaker 3: it than that. But I think Augustine is really, really

615
00:38:02,090 --> 00:38:08,989
Speaker 3: emphatic that how we conduct our social responsibilities bears witness

616
00:38:09,090 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 3: and teaches the community around us what kind of peace

617
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 3: is possible.

618
00:38:13,260 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: Okay.

619
00:38:15,460 --> 00:38:18,180
Speaker 3: So he gives the example of the pater familias, the

620
00:38:18,219 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 3: head of the household, the father. And he says that

621
00:38:22,260 --> 00:38:26,250
Speaker 3: you can be a head of household and, and love

622
00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:29,750
Speaker 3: to dominate other people. And so everyone's scared of you,

623
00:38:30,310 --> 00:38:34,710
Speaker 3: everyone flatters you, and you love lording it over other people.

624
00:38:35,070 --> 00:38:38,590
Speaker 3: And so peace in that household is really all about

625
00:38:41,810 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 3: doing what you can to flatter the leader and making

626
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:51,339
Speaker 3: sure that you're not harmed by that leader. So it's

627
00:38:51,380 --> 00:38:55,230
Speaker 3: a very negative form of peace. People are living together

628
00:38:55,290 --> 00:38:57,930
Speaker 3: in fear. People are learning to manipulate each other, right?

629
00:38:57,950 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 3: You could think about like King Lear's daughters. How did

630
00:39:00,460 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 3: they end up, you know, saying those things that they said? Well,

631
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 3: I mean, I think there was a sort of climate

632
00:39:06,700 --> 00:39:08,980
Speaker 3: where they learned you flatter dad and that's how you

633
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,259
Speaker 3: get what you want, you know? So there's that kind

634
00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:16,450
Speaker 3: of paterfamilias. And then he talks about the paterfamilias who

635
00:39:16,610 --> 00:39:19,090
Speaker 3: sees his authority as service.

636
00:39:19,110 --> 00:39:20,070
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

637
00:39:22,219 --> 00:39:28,340
Speaker 3: And he's constantly recognizing where the people, he listens and

638
00:39:28,380 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 3: he recognizes that where there are wounds within his household.

639
00:39:33,340 --> 00:39:40,100
Speaker 3: And he tries to bind those wounds by, you know, there,

640
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,730
Speaker 3: there is punishment involved, right? Like, you know, you, you

641
00:39:44,230 --> 00:39:47,370
Speaker 3: hit your brother with the Legos again. So the Legos

642
00:39:47,390 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 3: have to go, you know, But there's a sort of

643
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,259
Speaker 3: teaching of the importance of loving one another, of thick

644
00:39:54,420 --> 00:39:58,660
Speaker 3: bonds where our relationships with one another really, really matters.

645
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,140
Speaker 3: And we need to live in a way where everyone

646
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 3: is listened to. Everyone is learning to grow in these virtues.

647
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 3: And everyone recognizes that they have an important place. And

648
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:17,720
Speaker 3: so these kinds of leadership roles are all about service.

649
00:40:18,660 --> 00:40:23,130
Speaker 3: and we all have them, right? We have different parts

650
00:40:23,210 --> 00:40:30,569
Speaker 3: of our lives where we have, um, responsibilities to others that, that, um,

651
00:40:31,710 --> 00:40:32,790
Speaker 3: that create a culture.

652
00:40:33,930 --> 00:40:34,129
Speaker 1: Yeah.

653
00:40:34,930 --> 00:40:36,739
Speaker 3: And I think we can all learn from that in

654
00:40:36,780 --> 00:40:39,939
Speaker 3: Augustine rather than sort of compartmentalizing politics to this little

655
00:40:39,980 --> 00:40:43,620
Speaker 3: place where we're choosing between platforms. We're learning to recognize

656
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,370
Speaker 3: the importance of our own, uh, characters and what kind

657
00:40:47,390 --> 00:40:50,529
Speaker 3: of community that will create, what kind of culture we're

658
00:40:50,570 --> 00:40:52,450
Speaker 3: knitting together day in and day out.

659
00:40:53,530 --> 00:40:56,230
Speaker 1: And it strikes me, you see this, obviously, I think

660
00:40:56,270 --> 00:40:58,670
Speaker 1: you see it in some of the household codes in

661
00:40:59,390 --> 00:41:02,720
Speaker 1: Paul's work, you know, Ephesians, Colossians. But I think the

662
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: place you almost see it, where you could arguably make

663
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:11,259
Speaker 1: a really strong case for Romans 14 and 15, this weak,

664
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,930
Speaker 1: strong argument, particularly where he talks about look, the weak

665
00:41:16,050 --> 00:41:18,770
Speaker 1: answer to God in the same way that the strong,

666
00:41:19,489 --> 00:41:22,270
Speaker 1: you know, relate to God. And so that then should

667
00:41:22,330 --> 00:41:24,950
Speaker 1: condition the way that the weak and the strong interrelate

668
00:41:25,010 --> 00:41:27,700
Speaker 1: with one another. There shouldn't be judgment or condemnation or

669
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: what have you.

670
00:41:28,980 --> 00:41:31,660
Speaker 2: Like that's, that's a level up.

671
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,939
Speaker 1: God's going to handle that part. And so this then

672
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,540
Speaker 1: provides the basis for living peaceably with one another and,

673
00:41:39,020 --> 00:41:43,339
Speaker 1: and really fostering growth within that community. And, And so

674
00:41:43,380 --> 00:41:45,970
Speaker 1: there is this orientation, as you were talking about the

675
00:41:46,590 --> 00:41:51,469
Speaker 1: authoritarian paterfamilias, right, where everything is about the head of

676
00:41:51,489 --> 00:41:55,830
Speaker 1: the household. You see this sort of misorientation. I know

677
00:41:56,190 --> 00:41:59,570
Speaker 1: Augustine talks a lot about misdirected desire. This is almost

678
00:41:59,610 --> 00:42:04,940
Speaker 1: like a misdirected peace. It's like it doesn't foster the

679
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,090
Speaker 1: right sort of virtues. it can create a pseudo peace,

680
00:42:09,170 --> 00:42:11,230
Speaker 1: but it's not around the right set of virtues. And

681
00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:14,710
Speaker 1: so reorienting those so that the true fear that you

682
00:42:14,750 --> 00:42:18,529
Speaker 1: have is around God. It sort of lead, there's this

683
00:42:18,550 --> 00:42:22,140
Speaker 1: great quote in Jonathan train wrote it in a book

684
00:42:22,219 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 1: on theologies of memory in relation to the Vietnam war.

685
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:26,860
Speaker 2: I'm blanking on the title exactly.

686
00:42:27,739 --> 00:42:32,219
Speaker 1: But he says for Christians, as a people called to obedience,

687
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,739
Speaker 1: they are always free to obey. And he has this

688
00:42:35,820 --> 00:42:41,700
Speaker 1: notion of true liberty found in deep obedience to God. Yeah.

689
00:42:41,900 --> 00:42:44,420
Speaker 1: It just strikes me that all of that is sort

690
00:42:44,460 --> 00:42:48,280
Speaker 1: of what Augustine is swimming around. Yeah.

691
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:52,469
Speaker 3: And he really, he, so he, there's two things going on.

692
00:42:52,530 --> 00:42:57,029
Speaker 3: First of all, he thinks that naturally God has put

693
00:42:57,190 --> 00:43:00,530
Speaker 3: in the paternal heart, a deep love for his children that,

694
00:43:00,550 --> 00:43:04,250
Speaker 3: you know, obviously self-love, withers away, but this sort of

695
00:43:04,410 --> 00:43:11,140
Speaker 3: natural love is a mirror of God's love for us,

696
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 3: which is deep. And, you know, if you think about

697
00:43:13,540 --> 00:43:16,140
Speaker 3: the confessions and how it's modeled on the prodigal son,

698
00:43:16,180 --> 00:43:19,180
Speaker 3: the story of the prodigal son has affected Augustine so

699
00:43:19,219 --> 00:43:23,460
Speaker 3: very deeply. And so the way in which all of these,

700
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:31,790
Speaker 3: this compassion for one's own children, the desire to help them,

701
00:43:31,810 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 3: to heal them, All these things he thinks that, you know,

702
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,620
Speaker 3: is naturally there. And then God's love only strengthens it

703
00:43:40,820 --> 00:43:44,180
Speaker 3: and will also gives it a measure so that when

704
00:43:44,219 --> 00:43:50,550
Speaker 3: it's not there, God indicts that absence, right? But yeah,

705
00:43:50,650 --> 00:43:56,450
Speaker 3: it's really about how do we think about our roles

706
00:43:56,469 --> 00:44:00,370
Speaker 3: of authority as service? Well, only by seeing the face

707
00:44:00,410 --> 00:44:03,450
Speaker 3: of the other and being moved by that face. in love.

708
00:44:03,469 --> 00:44:07,089
Speaker 3: So he has these remarkable letters where he writes to

709
00:44:07,130 --> 00:44:11,910
Speaker 3: Christian judges, you know, involved in Senate, like the, there,

710
00:44:12,410 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 3: there were some, there was some unrest in North Africa with,

711
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:19,460
Speaker 3: with these different Christian groups. One was called the Donatists

712
00:44:20,739 --> 00:44:23,259
Speaker 3: who it was kind of, they really didn't like the

713
00:44:23,300 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 3: Roman empire, for example. So it was a bit involved

714
00:44:26,060 --> 00:44:29,140
Speaker 3: in national separatism, but the Donatists got a bit violent

715
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,069
Speaker 3: and they would, you know, throw lime in the eyes

716
00:44:33,370 --> 00:44:35,910
Speaker 3: of the Catholics and kind of they would blind them.

717
00:44:35,969 --> 00:44:38,910
Speaker 3: And so they were charged with, you know, public unrest.

718
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,620
Speaker 3: And Augustine writes these letters to Christian judges and says, look,

719
00:44:45,180 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 3: you know, do not torture them. Do not execute them. Rather,

720
00:44:49,890 --> 00:44:55,089
Speaker 3: with the heart of a loving father, seek to rehabilitate them.

721
00:44:55,940 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 3: So he really thinks that the heart of the father

722
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,060
Speaker 3: is one of compassion that seeks a kind of restoration

723
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:06,980
Speaker 3: or healing. And it's really interesting the way that he

724
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:11,140
Speaker 3: takes that model and he applies it to politics. But

725
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,950
Speaker 3: it can't really be understood without this kind of compassionate

726
00:45:14,010 --> 00:45:18,030
Speaker 3: heart that seeks healing rather than just destruction of people.

727
00:45:18,610 --> 00:45:23,049
Speaker 1: Yeah, like a putting away of the rabble-rousers. without any

728
00:45:23,090 --> 00:45:28,620
Speaker 1: sort of rehabilitation or, or desire to transform them. Is

729
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: that a fair way to think about it?

730
00:45:30,739 --> 00:45:31,739
Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah.

731
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

732
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,180
Speaker 3: That's what he, he says, avoid this, that, uh, you, he,

733
00:45:35,340 --> 00:45:39,290
Speaker 3: he even writes like, think about yourself as the woman

734
00:45:39,330 --> 00:45:42,969
Speaker 3: caught in adultery. How can you be a judge in

735
00:45:43,030 --> 00:45:47,669
Speaker 3: light of that? You are that woman, right? And so

736
00:45:47,730 --> 00:45:50,660
Speaker 3: you judge out of recognizing you have been radically forgiven

737
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,980
Speaker 3: and which doesn't mean laxity, but rather it means applying

738
00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:00,420
Speaker 3: the law with a heart for rehabilitation and forgiveness.

739
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:01,180
Speaker 1: Yeah.

740
00:46:02,180 --> 00:46:02,740
Speaker 3: And reform.

741
00:46:02,860 --> 00:46:07,950
Speaker 1: Yeah. Let me think for a minute because Augustine, and again,

742
00:46:07,989 --> 00:46:10,489
Speaker 1: I'm not, I don't remember where I read this, but

743
00:46:10,590 --> 00:46:12,549
Speaker 1: I know it's from Augustine. So maybe you'll be able

744
00:46:12,590 --> 00:46:19,529
Speaker 1: to place it, but he's talking about everyone deserving love, right?

745
00:46:19,710 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 1: Everyone deserves love, but, because we have a limited capacity,

746
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: we ultimately can't give everyone the love that they deserve.

747
00:46:30,590 --> 00:46:35,170
Speaker 1: And so he suggests that God has placed us in

748
00:46:35,210 --> 00:46:39,630
Speaker 1: a position and around a certain degree, number of people

749
00:46:40,130 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: to love them in a particular manner, right? And it

750
00:46:45,180 --> 00:46:48,460
Speaker 1: strikes me that well, first I'm wondering if you know

751
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,259
Speaker 1: that passage better than I do. Do you recognize that

752
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: teaching from a Justin? Yeah.

753
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,899
Speaker 3: So I think here, I think this is night city

754
00:46:56,940 --> 00:47:01,799
Speaker 3: of God, 1914. Okay. Um, where he's talking about, uh,

755
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 3: the two great commandments, love of God and love of neighbor.

756
00:47:06,550 --> 00:47:06,860
Speaker 2: Yeah.

757
00:47:07,300 --> 00:47:10,150
Speaker 3: And so he says, you know, seek peace with all, uh,

758
00:47:10,150 --> 00:47:16,589
Speaker 3: do no harm, uh, And then he has this really

759
00:47:16,630 --> 00:47:21,089
Speaker 3: interesting thing where he says, well, you have a, you

760
00:47:21,130 --> 00:47:25,330
Speaker 3: have a responsibility to those close to you and your family.

761
00:47:26,930 --> 00:47:31,900
Speaker 3: But there's this tension between, in a certain sense, the

762
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 3: principle of need and the principle of proximity. Yeah. Let's

763
00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 3: say you have a, you know, one loaf of bread,

764
00:47:39,540 --> 00:47:46,009
Speaker 3: the heart, aches because we recognize that if I have

765
00:47:46,130 --> 00:47:49,170
Speaker 3: one loaf of bread, I have to choose between the

766
00:47:49,210 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 3: starving person and my child, for example. And so what

767
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,820
Speaker 3: he's really doing there is he's recognizing there's this tension

768
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:04,420
Speaker 3: between the needs of the whole world and then the

769
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 3: people that have been given to us. Now, I think

770
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,240
Speaker 3: what he's doing there is he's not kind of making

771
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 3: he's not making a law of you always, you know,

772
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,040
Speaker 3: you always give the bread to your child in the

773
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:23,980
Speaker 3: face of a starving person, because what if your kid

774
00:48:24,020 --> 00:48:26,180
Speaker 3: just had four peanut butter jelly sandwiches? You know what

775
00:48:26,219 --> 00:48:27,700
Speaker 3: I mean? So it's, it's a really, it's a matter

776
00:48:27,739 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 3: of prudence and deliberation about what is called for in

777
00:48:32,770 --> 00:48:36,190
Speaker 3: this particular circumstance. But he does recognize that there is

778
00:48:36,250 --> 00:48:40,810
Speaker 3: this tension because there are, there are people who need

779
00:48:40,850 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 3: things and there are people that we have responsibilities towards and, there.

780
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,860
Speaker 3: And so that's kind of the logic of what's going

781
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:50,710
Speaker 3: on in that part. But yeah, he doesn't really give

782
00:48:50,770 --> 00:48:55,149
Speaker 3: us a go-to, easily applicable rule for what to do

783
00:48:55,210 --> 00:48:56,209
Speaker 3: in that circumstance.

784
00:48:56,710 --> 00:48:56,870
Speaker 2: Right.

785
00:48:56,910 --> 00:48:59,250
Speaker 1: It's not normative. I think the reason I'm bringing it

786
00:48:59,370 --> 00:49:01,770
Speaker 1: up is as you talk about the development of these

787
00:49:01,910 --> 00:49:06,180
Speaker 1: thick relationships, it seems to me that that's a crucial

788
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:08,980
Speaker 1: concept to bring up, particularly in our day and age,

789
00:49:09,739 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: where I can read things about any nation on the

790
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: planet that I have very little. I remember at one

791
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:22,739
Speaker 1: point I was asked to do a piece on the Deadpool. Um, and,

792
00:49:22,969 --> 00:49:26,629
Speaker 1: and I just made the comment, I'm like, I don't

793
00:49:26,690 --> 00:49:31,250
Speaker 1: know anyone who's ever been to a Diddy party. And

794
00:49:31,290 --> 00:49:34,980
Speaker 1: so to me, it's like, I have compassion for them.

795
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,860
Speaker 1: I have a sense that this is truly impactful and

796
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: harmful to a lot of people. I also have no

797
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,510
Speaker 1: real recourse to do anything about it. I wouldn't even

798
00:49:46,530 --> 00:49:48,930
Speaker 1: know where to start. Like for me, the line to

799
00:49:48,969 --> 00:49:51,270
Speaker 1: get to someone that are where I could go, yes,

800
00:49:51,330 --> 00:49:54,170
Speaker 1: I can have compassion on this person in the generic

801
00:49:54,210 --> 00:49:57,910
Speaker 1: sense versus the line I'd have to walk to figure out, okay,

802
00:49:57,969 --> 00:49:59,629
Speaker 1: who's been there and how do I get in touch

803
00:49:59,650 --> 00:50:00,029
Speaker 1: with them?

804
00:50:00,090 --> 00:50:00,790
Speaker 2: And what can I do?

805
00:50:00,910 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 1: You know, like develop that relationship, it's way far down.

806
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,089
Speaker 2: The line, right? There's multiple steps there.

807
00:50:06,770 --> 00:50:08,330
Speaker 1: And I think that as we look at this and

808
00:50:08,350 --> 00:50:13,610
Speaker 1: we're thinking about developing these thick relationships, there's something about

809
00:50:13,730 --> 00:50:19,180
Speaker 1: being careful not to get so involved in the big

810
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: picture things where we haven't been placed and then ignoring

811
00:50:28,540 --> 00:50:32,629
Speaker 1: what's happening closer to us. Again, not as a normative

812
00:50:33,610 --> 00:50:36,970
Speaker 1: rule like, hey, never watch the world news or something

813
00:50:37,010 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: crazy like that. Yeah. But just recognizing our limitations and

814
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:46,259
Speaker 1: trying to judge and discern in a really sober and

815
00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:51,900
Speaker 1: mature way. What can I do? Not how should I feel,

816
00:50:51,980 --> 00:50:55,320
Speaker 1: but what can I do? Yeah. There's some sort of

817
00:50:55,390 --> 00:50:56,050
Speaker 1: distinction there.

818
00:50:56,070 --> 00:51:00,400
Speaker 3: I think that's right. I think there's– for Augustine, a

819
00:51:00,460 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 3: real sense of providence and a vocation and mission that

820
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:11,750
Speaker 3: can't be discerned outside of prayer. So, you know, he

821
00:51:11,790 --> 00:51:15,530
Speaker 3: didn't choose to be ordained. He was kind of pounced

822
00:51:15,590 --> 00:51:17,950
Speaker 3: upon and ordained by the people of Hippo when he

823
00:51:17,969 --> 00:51:21,930
Speaker 3: shows up. So that's very much like, well, this was

824
00:51:21,969 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 3: out of my hands, but this is clearly the mission,

825
00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:28,919
Speaker 3: the vocation that I've been given. he would be much

826
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,430
Speaker 3: rather reading his books with his buddies and have like

827
00:51:32,450 --> 00:51:34,730
Speaker 3: the contemplative life than the active life. So there's a

828
00:51:34,770 --> 00:51:37,250
Speaker 3: sense in which he sort of, he has the disposition

829
00:51:37,270 --> 00:51:44,290
Speaker 3: where he thinks that active posts are sort of given

830
00:51:44,330 --> 00:51:51,469
Speaker 3: to you as a cross in a certain sense. I think, yeah.

831
00:51:51,510 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 3: So I think that that's, that's right. A sort of

832
00:51:54,020 --> 00:51:57,890
Speaker 3: recognition that God is, gives us our mission. So there's

833
00:51:58,050 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 3: this prayer by John Henry Newman. I don't remember all

834
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,580
Speaker 3: of it, but it goes something like, I am a

835
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 3: link in the chain. I have my mission. I may

836
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 3: not know what it is in this life, but I

837
00:52:11,300 --> 00:52:15,490
Speaker 3: will know in the next what it was. And I

838
00:52:15,530 --> 00:52:20,730
Speaker 3: think that disposition and that openness is exactly the right thing.

839
00:52:20,790 --> 00:52:25,530
Speaker 3: Because who knows, maybe you find yourself in prayer, deeply

840
00:52:25,590 --> 00:52:29,469
Speaker 3: called to go to a mission in Africa, right? Very

841
00:52:29,510 --> 00:52:33,450
Speaker 3: far from home. Or, you know, think about the apostles.

842
00:52:33,930 --> 00:52:37,219
Speaker 3: This guy is going, you know, to India, or whatever

843
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,660
Speaker 3: it might be, right? Like, who knows where the Spirit

844
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 3: is going to lead you. But it's not an abstraction.

845
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:45,660
Speaker 3: It's not.

846
00:52:47,219 --> 00:52:47,339
Speaker 1: A.

847
00:52:47,900 --> 00:52:54,219
Speaker 3: And I certainly agree that we can become morose and uh,

848
00:52:54,700 --> 00:52:57,060
Speaker 3: heavy laden with all the things we cannot do in

849
00:52:57,100 --> 00:53:01,190
Speaker 3: the world. And I think the entertainment news industry is,

850
00:53:01,410 --> 00:53:05,830
Speaker 3: is really, uh, you know, but I think perhaps larger

851
00:53:05,870 --> 00:53:09,750
Speaker 3: than that, it's just the, the immediacy of the digital

852
00:53:09,790 --> 00:53:13,830
Speaker 3: medium in general is a sort of distraction from, from

853
00:53:14,489 --> 00:53:17,630
Speaker 3: the given reality that we do have to attend to. Um,

854
00:53:19,210 --> 00:53:23,230
Speaker 3: I do think that's a real danger today. Um, that we, we,

855
00:53:23,330 --> 00:53:26,790
Speaker 3: we live in, in a digital medium that transports us

856
00:53:27,570 --> 00:53:29,770
Speaker 3: everywhere and nowhere at once. So we're, we're not even

857
00:53:29,790 --> 00:53:30,910
Speaker 3: where we are, you know?

858
00:53:30,950 --> 00:53:31,169
Speaker 2: Yeah.

859
00:53:31,950 --> 00:53:33,549
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's a good way to put it.

860
00:53:34,110 --> 00:53:37,410
Speaker 3: Where concretely in my life, who am I called upon

861
00:53:37,450 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 3: to love and to serve? Um, is a, is a

862
00:53:41,180 --> 00:53:43,899
Speaker 3: really important question we have to constantly return to, you know,

863
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:45,400
Speaker 3: and vocation.

864
00:53:45,420 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

865
00:53:45,580 --> 00:53:46,520
Speaker 3: Thinking about vocation.

866
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:47,540
Speaker 2: Yeah.

867
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:50,820
Speaker 1: So we're coming up on time.

868
00:53:50,860 --> 00:53:51,620
Speaker 2: We're almost done.

869
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,969
Speaker 1: The interview so i think augustine has a lot to

870
00:53:56,050 --> 00:53:58,790
Speaker 1: say to the contemporary world i find his writing really

871
00:53:58,910 --> 00:54:03,070
Speaker 1: rich and helpful um as a you know sort of

872
00:54:03,090 --> 00:54:06,580
Speaker 1: a someone who's had the benefit of going through phd

873
00:54:06,620 --> 00:54:08,580
Speaker 1: studies and doing research and all that kind of fun

874
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,620
Speaker 1: stuff um even i find it difficult to access augustine

875
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,850
Speaker 1: in all its aspects like it it's a project right

876
00:54:16,870 --> 00:54:19,230
Speaker 1: to jump into you don't just So I'm wondering if

877
00:54:19,310 --> 00:54:23,049
Speaker 1: you can give listeners some sense of where they might

878
00:54:23,170 --> 00:54:27,069
Speaker 1: start to get sort of an introduction to Augustine and

879
00:54:27,110 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: maybe start reading some of his work. Like if you

880
00:54:29,820 --> 00:54:31,980
Speaker 1: could give them a little bit of a step-by-step, how

881
00:54:32,020 --> 00:54:34,359
Speaker 1: would you, how would you suggest to someone who's really

882
00:54:34,420 --> 00:54:36,759
Speaker 1: interested in this? How do they start to get to

883
00:54:36,780 --> 00:54:37,819
Speaker 1: know Augustine and his work?

884
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 3: Yeah. You know, I, I would start with his sermons because, uh,

885
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:49,980
Speaker 3: Augustine is writing to everyday people in his sermons. It's

886
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,980
Speaker 3: not a high intellectual class or anything like that. He

887
00:54:54,060 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 3: is meditating on the scriptures. And, you know, some of

888
00:54:57,780 --> 00:55:00,180
Speaker 3: them are really long. There is one where he was

889
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:04,580
Speaker 3: trying to keep the Christians in the church because outside

890
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 3: this pagan festival that was going on and it was

891
00:55:07,080 --> 00:55:10,460
Speaker 3: a little bit bacchanalian-like. So he goes really long on

892
00:55:10,500 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 3: that one. But by and large, you can pray with

893
00:55:13,820 --> 00:55:16,219
Speaker 3: them and you can also see the way that they

894
00:55:16,260 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 3: have a kind of arc to them, and you can

895
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:21,700
Speaker 3: learn the way that he's speaking to people. So I

896
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:23,580
Speaker 3: would say the best way to think about Augustine as

897
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:27,100
Speaker 3: a writer is he's giving us a spiritual exercise. It's

898
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:33,190
Speaker 3: not like, here's some information. It's all about the soul

899
00:55:33,210 --> 00:55:37,730
Speaker 3: and helping us return to God. So everything that he

900
00:55:37,770 --> 00:55:40,430
Speaker 3: writes is a spiritual exercise for the reader. We're supposed

901
00:55:40,450 --> 00:55:43,990
Speaker 3: to approach it in a spirit of contemplation, a spirit

902
00:55:44,030 --> 00:55:48,819
Speaker 3: of meditation. the spirit of listening and of looking at

903
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,299
Speaker 3: our hearts and letting God heal our hearts. So start

904
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 3: with the sermons.

905
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:53,859
Speaker 1: Yeah.

906
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,920
Speaker 3: There's some really beautiful ones. He has a whole collection

907
00:55:57,980 --> 00:56:01,680
Speaker 3: on the Psalms. That is amazing. He also has sermons,

908
00:56:01,860 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 3: you know, on first John, he's got one there. There's

909
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:08,970
Speaker 3: so many of them. You can get like the essential

910
00:56:09,050 --> 00:56:13,030
Speaker 3: sermons if you like, but start with the sermons. Okay.

911
00:56:14,310 --> 00:56:17,430
Speaker 1: Well, Veronica, this has been awesome. I actually really love

912
00:56:17,469 --> 00:56:20,550
Speaker 1: talking to Augustine. And as I said in my email

913
00:56:20,570 --> 00:56:22,770
Speaker 1: to you, I really enjoyed the book. It was so

914
00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:26,910
Speaker 1: helpful and clarifying and informative for some of the other

915
00:56:26,969 --> 00:56:29,270
Speaker 1: work that I was doing that I just really appreciated it.

916
00:56:29,350 --> 00:56:32,230
Speaker 1: I think you got deeper into Augustine than I would

917
00:56:32,250 --> 00:56:34,190
Speaker 1: have been able to myself. And so it was just

918
00:56:34,290 --> 00:56:41,469
Speaker 1: really helpful. I actually thought it was a pretty accessible

919
00:56:41,510 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: book for an academic book. I think it's worth people

920
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:48,290
Speaker 1: wading through. And so, um, I would encourage listeners to

921
00:56:48,310 --> 00:56:50,590
Speaker 1: go out and check it out politics in the earthly

922
00:56:50,650 --> 00:56:54,150
Speaker 1: city in Augustine city of God by Veronica Roberts Ogle.

923
00:56:54,250 --> 00:56:56,049
Speaker 1: The link will be in the description. Do you have

924
00:56:56,090 --> 00:56:58,550
Speaker 1: anywhere else I could route people to get more familiar

925
00:56:58,590 --> 00:56:59,450
Speaker 1: with you and your work?

926
00:57:00,860 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 3: Oh, you know, I write here and there. I'm not,

927
00:57:03,219 --> 00:57:06,640
Speaker 3: I'm not, I have little kids, so I have limited time,

928
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:08,300
Speaker 3: but I have a couple of things, you know, in

929
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:12,510
Speaker 3: public discourse here or there, or, um, Church Life Journal,

930
00:57:12,630 --> 00:57:15,230
Speaker 3: but that's really it. It's mostly when people ask me

931
00:57:15,250 --> 00:57:16,850
Speaker 3: to do something, I'll do it, but I don't have

932
00:57:16,890 --> 00:57:19,090
Speaker 3: time to do it otherwise.

933
00:57:19,250 --> 00:57:21,630
Speaker 1: Understood. Well, thanks for taking the time to be on

934
00:57:21,650 --> 00:57:25,250
Speaker 1: the show today and really appreciate you and your work.

935
00:57:25,270 --> 00:57:27,570
Speaker 1: And again, just encourage everybody to check the book out.

936
00:57:28,240 --> 00:57:31,680
Speaker 2: And that's it. We'll catch everybody on the next episode

937
00:57:31,720 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 2: of Thinking Christian. Take care, everyone.

938
00:57:33,180 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Take care.

939
00:57:34,780 --> 00:57:37,950
Speaker 1: Bye-bye. Just want to take a second to thank the

940
00:57:37,970 --> 00:57:40,510
Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on

941
00:57:40,550 --> 00:57:44,060
Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll

942
00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've

943
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:50,580
Speaker 1: got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.