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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: We almost celebrate and revel in the mistreatment of immigrants.

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Speaker 2: When I read that, I thought, is there a difference

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Speaker 2: between desecration like shout your abortion and just being cruel

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Speaker 2: to people.

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Speaker 3: It's one thing to be calling for sober and appropriate

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Speaker 3: immigration policies. It's one thing to want strong borders. It's

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Speaker 3: another thing to post pictures online of children of immigrants

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Speaker 3: being carried off by ice and taking joy in the

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Speaker 3: pain and the fear in those children's eyes.

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Speaker 2: I read your book, Carl. It's provocatively called The Desecration

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Speaker 2: of Man. What do you mean by desecration?

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Speaker 3: The idea is that the world has lost its magic

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Speaker 3: and has lost its depth. I think that's certainly an

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Speaker 3: insight into the way we live today. We all feel

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Speaker 3: the world is less mysterious, it's less magical, it's less enchanted.

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Speaker 2: Our guest today, doctor Carl Truman, is who I would

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Speaker 2: consider one of the most important Christian thinkers of our time.

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Speaker 2: He's written a book today called The Desecration of Man.

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Speaker 2: How the rejection of God degrades our humanity. We have

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Speaker 2: in studio today to have a conversation, and I read

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Speaker 2: your book, Carl three times carefully underline highlighted it, and

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Speaker 2: I will probably go back through it again because I

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Speaker 2: think it's that important. Thanks for joining us today on

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Speaker 2: the Think Biblically podcast.

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Speaker 3: It's a great pleasure to be here. And you've read

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Speaker 3: the book more often than I have.

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Speaker 2: A fair enough Well, we'll get into why. But I

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Speaker 2: think it's eye opening. I think it's interesting. I think

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Speaker 2: it's relevant. It shifted a couple things in my mind.

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Speaker 2: But let's just start with the title. It's provocatively called

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Speaker 2: the Desecration of Man? What do you mean by desecration?

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Speaker 2: And can you give us some cultural examples if you will?

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Speaker 3: Well the background to the top desecration of Man. Partly

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Speaker 3: it's a little homage to C. S. Lewis, because who

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Speaker 3: wrote Fame the Abolition of Man? And partly it's an

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Speaker 3: attempt to supplement the current tendency among a lot of

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Speaker 3: Christian thinkers to talk about the world as being disenchanted.

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Speaker 3: The idea is that the world has lost its magic

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Speaker 3: and has lost its depth, and I think that's certainly

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Speaker 3: an insight into the way we live today. We all

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Speaker 3: feel the world is less mysterious, it's less magical, it's

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Speaker 3: less enchanted, but it doesn't fully explain all of the

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Speaker 3: aspects of modernity, and indeed, it doesn't explain some of

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Speaker 3: what I consider to be the most important aspects of modernity.

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Speaker 3: And one example that I use in the book is

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Speaker 3: the language that surrounds abortion. In the nineteen nineties, the

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Speaker 3: language for abortion was that it should be safe, legal,

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Speaker 3: and rare, which is there's a sense of sort of

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Speaker 3: regret in that language. It's okay, the world is not

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Speaker 3: as it should be. Sometimes we have to do things

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Speaker 3: that we would rather not do. But if we've got

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Speaker 3: to do those things, then let's make sure that they're safe,

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Speaker 3: make sure that they're regulated by the law, and make

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Speaker 3: sure that they're rare. They don't happen very often. In

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Speaker 3: the thirty thirty five years since that phrase was popular,

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Speaker 3: we've seen this remarkable turnaround such that abortion is now

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Speaker 3: something that people are to be proud of. They shout

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Speaker 3: their abortions, they wear sweatshirts proclaiming that they've had an abortion.

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Speaker 3: We had the very bizarre situation a year or two

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Speaker 3: ago where there was a man who wanted to become

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Speaker 3: a woman so that he could get pregnant and have

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Speaker 3: an abortion. There is an acceleration, a celebration involved in this, well,

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Speaker 3: I would say destruction of humanity. The category of disenchantment

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Speaker 3: doesn't really allow us to explain, So I lasted onto

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Speaker 3: desecration as a way of trying to capture the exhilarating,

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Speaker 3: intentionally destructive nature of so much of what we now

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Speaker 3: do as human beings.

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Speaker 4: So in the very beginning part you sort of frame

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Speaker 4: the book around Frederic Nich's mad Man.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, tell us a.

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Speaker 4: Little bit about well, for those that aren't familiar with Nietzsche,

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Speaker 4: what the Madman represents? Yeah, And how now that helps

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Speaker 4: frame where you're going with the book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well. Friedrich Nietzsche, for those not familiar with the name,

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Speaker 3: was one of the great nineteenth century atheist philosophers. Not

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Speaker 3: well known really during his own day, he's become much

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Speaker 3: more significant in the century or so since his death

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Speaker 3: in nineteen hundred. Nietzsche was also a great writer, and

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Speaker 3: he didn't write tedious philosophical tones. He wrote with the

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Speaker 3: real literary flair. And in one of his works, The

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Speaker 3: Gay Science, he has this parable, as he called it,

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Speaker 3: the Parable of the Madman, where he tells this story

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Speaker 3: of a madman who runs into a town square in

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Speaker 3: the middle of the day, holding up a lantern even

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Speaker 3: though the sun is shining, is holding of land, and

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Speaker 3: so so he's clearly a lunatic. And he beerates The

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Speaker 3: people who are gathered in the town square happen to

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Speaker 3: be atheists. He beerates them with the declaration that God

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Speaker 3: is dead. God does not exist anymore. And the men

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Speaker 3: in the town square they're confused by this and they

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Speaker 3: laugh at him. It's a sort of course, he's dead.

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Speaker 3: What are you going on about. The madman says, no,

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Speaker 3: you don't understand. God is dead because we killed him.

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Speaker 3: We've intentionally got rid of him. And then the madmen

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Speaker 3: goes on to say, you know, and I summarize here

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Speaker 3: essentially saying something like, you can't carry on as if

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Speaker 3: everything is the same when you've got rid of God.

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Speaker 3: If you get rid of God, then you really have

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Speaker 3: to get rid of everything that was once built upon God.

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Speaker 3: In fact, you have to become God's yourselves. You have

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Speaker 3: to decide what the values are that you live by.

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Speaker 3: You have to decide what the meaning of your life is.

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Speaker 3: You have to overcome the suffering that comes your way

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Speaker 3: and make it serve your purpose and that's both a

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Speaker 3: terrifying respetibility because it means we have to rise to

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Speaker 3: be gods. It's also exhilarating as well, because we have

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Speaker 3: to rise to be God's and that language of you know,

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Speaker 3: God is dead because we have killed him, that's exhilarating language.

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Speaker 3: What greater sense of power could a human being have

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Speaker 3: than having the blood of the divine on his hands?

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Speaker 3: And so Niatzure's really throwing out a challenge there to

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Speaker 3: atheists and saying essentially, you can't be a polite atheist,

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Speaker 3: you can't be an atheist and then just carry on

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Speaker 3: as if Christian morality human nature is true and unchanged

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Speaker 3: by the death of God. No, now everything's up for grabs.

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Speaker 3: You have to rise and become God's yourselves.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I take it this was part plot of the

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Speaker 4: metaphor where has cut flower civilization comes from? Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 4: recognizing that we can't you can't have the benefits of

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Speaker 4: the beauty of those flowers when cut off from the roots.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's the sort of Niature's really calling the bluff

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Speaker 3: on the Enlightenment. But it's essentially saying, and I think

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Speaker 3: he's probably got somebody like Immanual Cant in his crosshairs.

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Speaker 3: Here he's essentially saying, you, enlightenment philosophers can't get rid

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Speaker 3: of God without fundamentally revising your understanding of morality, human value.

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Speaker 3: You know, underlying it all is this idea that you know,

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Speaker 3: Niatsure looks at somebody like Cans and thinks he's got

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Speaker 3: rid of God, but he smuggled something back in to

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Speaker 3: do the job that God once did, human nature. Actually, no,

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Speaker 3: can't even talk about human nature now. Human nature is

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Speaker 3: not something objective and given to us that we have

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Speaker 3: to conform to. We get to decide as individuals what

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Speaker 3: our nature is, what is good for us, what is

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Speaker 3: bad for us?

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Speaker 4: So how how does that connect? How does that also

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Speaker 4: capture the cultural moment we're in at present?

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Speaker 3: Well, of course, the challenge then becomes, how do I

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Speaker 3: know that I am acting in an authentic way? You

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Speaker 3: know Nietzsch would say, how do you know you're not

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Speaker 3: going along with herd morality? Well, the answer is transgression.

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Speaker 3: By smashing through the things that the old God put

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Speaker 3: in place, we demonstrate our independence from him. We get

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Speaker 3: that buzz of knowing that we ourselves are gods because

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Speaker 3: we are riding a coach and horses through the things

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Speaker 3: that God set up as barriers to hem us. In

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Speaker 3: so it tilts strongly towards a kind of transgressive view

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Speaker 3: of what it means to be human. I'm at my

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Speaker 3: most authentic when I'm breaking the rules, and you think

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Speaker 3: about you don't have to read philosophy. You could just

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Speaker 3: switch on the TV and watch reality television. At this point,

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Speaker 3: what a set of values that reality television thrives on.

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Speaker 3: It's values of transgression. It's people behaving, we would say,

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Speaker 3: you know, using the old fashioned morality, people behaving badly,

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Speaker 3: that's what we like to see. Those are the people

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Speaker 3: that we idolize in our culture. Now.

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Speaker 2: So you talk about how this is kind of on

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Speaker 2: the left and on the right, and I appreciate that

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Speaker 2: this is not a political book. You're trying to analyze culture.

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Speaker 2: Some of the critiques you give that would maybe be

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Speaker 2: categorized more in the left would be shout your abortion

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Speaker 2: or drag Queen's story hour. And there's a great example

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Speaker 2: here how this is just kind of flaunting gender, it's

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Speaker 2: targeting children, there's the desecration element of it. One of

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Speaker 2: the examples on the right was not just that we

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Speaker 2: are hold a certain view of immigration, but we almost

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Speaker 2: celebrate and revel in the mistreatment of immigrants. Now, when

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Speaker 2: I read that, I thought, is there a difference between

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Speaker 2: desecration like shout your abortion and just being cruel to people?

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Speaker 2: So is that the same kind of desecration? And are

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Speaker 2: there other examples on the right that make your poor

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Speaker 2: or is it more largely a phenomena that we see

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Speaker 2: on the progressive left.

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Speaker 3: I think we see it certainly. If you're a Christian,

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Speaker 3: you'll tend to have seen it on the progressive left.

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Speaker 3: That's where American evangelicalism tends to see the problem. But

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Speaker 3: it definitely exists on the right as well. And the

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Speaker 3: examples in immigration is you know, it's one thing to

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Speaker 3: be calling for I would say, you know, sober and

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Speaker 3: appropriate immigration policies. It's one thing to want strong borders.

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Speaker 3: It's another thing to post pictures online of children of

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Speaker 3: immigrants being carried off by ice and taking joy in

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Speaker 3: the pain and the fear in those children's eyes. Now,

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Speaker 3: one might turn around and say, but it's the parent's

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Speaker 3: fault that the children in that situation. Okay, one could

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Speaker 3: argue that case, But even so, I take no pleasure

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Speaker 3: in the suffering of a child, even if that child

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Speaker 3: is the victim ultimately of the parent's misdemeanor, not the

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Speaker 3: not the immigration services. So and I think what's going

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Speaker 3: on there is a fundamental failure to recognize the image

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Speaker 3: of God in other people. When we take pleasure in

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Speaker 3: the destruction, be ittional or physical, of other people, we're

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Speaker 3: taking pleasure in the destruction of the image of God. Well,

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Speaker 3: what is that? That's the ultimate desecration. It's the thing

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Speaker 3: that makes us feel most powerful. Dostoevsky has a very

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Speaker 3: powerful passage in his book Notes from the Dead House

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Speaker 3: when he's reflecting, you know, he's reflecting on different prisoners

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Speaker 3: there and what's got them there? And there's one very

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Speaker 3: urbane man, and he's puzzled when he discovers that this

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Speaker 3: very urbane, gentlemanly, well educated, well spoken man is actually

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Speaker 3: a serial killer. Clows his mind. Why did he kill

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Speaker 3: so many people? Then Dostoyevsky's answer as well, the first

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Speaker 3: man he killed, perhaps he killed him for a reason.

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Speaker 3: It's not so we approve of him killing somebody, But

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Speaker 3: maybe the other guy cheated at cards, or cheated with

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Speaker 3: his wife or something. You could see there's a rationale

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Speaker 3: to the crime. But having killed this other man and

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Speaker 3: got such a buzz from crossing a sacred line, such

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Speaker 3: a buzz of power, from destroying the image of God,

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Speaker 3: he had to do it again and again and again.

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Speaker 3: And so there's that addictive dimension that that feeling of

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Speaker 3: god likeness that desecration gives us. So one example on

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Speaker 3: the right would be the rejoicing in the suffering of

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Speaker 3: little children at the moment. Another example might be the

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Speaker 3: treating of other human beings simply as pieces of garbage.

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Speaker 3: I think that you look at the ex accounts of

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Speaker 3: politicians on the left and right and look at how

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Speaker 3: they talk about people with whom they disagree. They really

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Speaker 3: talk about them as flesh and blood human beings. They

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Speaker 3: talk about them as things, as an aggregate of ideas

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Speaker 3: that they happen to disagree with. That, too, is a

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Speaker 3: form of desecration, the denial of the full humanity of

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Speaker 3: somebody else.

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Speaker 4: Now, you contend throughout the book that the question of

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Speaker 4: what's a human being? Yeah, Western anthropology are the central

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Speaker 4: not only theological, central cultural and philosophical question of the day. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: why is that so central? And how typically do you

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Speaker 4: see our culture, answering that today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I came across the what I called the anthropological

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Speaker 3: problem really in my earlier work, when I was exploring

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Speaker 3: how did transgenderism become so plausible? I was puzzled that

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Speaker 3: the statement I'm a woman trapped in a man's body

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Speaker 3: would have been regarded as completely nonsensical by my grandfather.

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Speaker 3: He died in the early nineties. He was died very

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Speaker 3: recently in the sweep of history, and yet today would

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Speaker 3: be seen as intuitively true by a lot of people.

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Speaker 3: And I came to the conclusion that you couldn't answer

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Speaker 3: that question completely in isolation. It's ultimately not a question

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Speaker 3: about gender. It's a question about human embodiments, how the

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Speaker 3: body connects to what it means to be a human being.

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Speaker 3: It's a much deeper question of what does it mean

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Speaker 3: to be a human being? And how has that question

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Speaker 3: become problematic in our day? I think a number of reasons. One,

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Speaker 3: as I've argued in earlier books, over the last four

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Speaker 3: or five hundred years, we've increasingly come to identify ourselves

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Speaker 3: with our inner feelings, rather than seeing our identity is

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Speaker 3: located in fixed social relations, or localities or family callings.

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Speaker 3: We've tended to see the continuity in our lives as

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Speaker 3: being provided by inner life, inner feelings. And secondly, we

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Speaker 3: have the role of technology teleology. The idea that human

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Speaker 3: beings have an end or a set of ends has

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Speaker 3: been fundamental to understanding what it means to be a

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Speaker 3: human being. I'm a Presbyterian, and the first answer of

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Speaker 3: the Westminster Shorter catecoris what is the chief end of man?

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Speaker 3: Man's chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.

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Speaker 3: So to me, a human being is to have that end,

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Speaker 3: glorify God and enjoy him forever. What technology has allowed

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Speaker 3: us to do is think that, like the Madman's challenge,

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Speaker 3: we can invent the ends for ourselves. I have a

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Speaker 3: male body, but that need not impose any teleology upon

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Speaker 3: me because technology allows me to take hormones and have

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Speaker 3: surgeries that you allow me to think that I'm a woman.

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Speaker 3: So technology has played a huge role in scrambling teleology,

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Speaker 3: and that has a deep knock on effect on how

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Speaker 3: we understand what it means to be human.

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Speaker 4: That's great.

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Speaker 2: One of the examples you gave in the book that

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Speaker 2: I found especially helpful was to compare how over like

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Speaker 2: the past twenty five years, how somebody would ground their

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Speaker 2: identity has changed more than probably like throughout the history

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Speaker 2: of the world. Yeah, so you take someone in England

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Speaker 2: in the twelfth century and the thirteenth century and really

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Speaker 2: nothing has changed that dramatically about how they ground themselves.

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Speaker 2: And yet with AI and other technologies, things might shift

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Speaker 2: within six months or two years or three years. Will

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Speaker 2: you kind of explain and unpacked that illustration a little

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Speaker 2: bit for us so our viewers really grasp it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, if we do a thought experiment and you

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Speaker 3: know time travel back to an English rural village in

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Speaker 3: twelve hundred and spend a couple of months there. Get

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Speaker 3: to know the people, get to know the rhythm of life,

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Speaker 3: a rhythm of life would be determined by the seasons.

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Speaker 3: Get to know the area where people would be tied

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Speaker 3: to the area probably wouldn't travel more than forty miles

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Speaker 3: away from their place of birth during their entire life.

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Speaker 3: If you were to ask somebody in that world who

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Speaker 3: are you, they give a very straightforward answer, I belong

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Speaker 3: to this family. We live in that part of the village.

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Speaker 3: We are the local blacksmiths, all with the local farmers.

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Speaker 3: We till this land here on by the way, I

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Speaker 3: was baptized, I got married, and I'll be buried in

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Speaker 3: that church just down the road. All of the things

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Speaker 3: that are important to defining who we are are fixed.

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Speaker 3: If you were to go forward to thirteen hundred or

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Speaker 3: fourteen hundred, the faces would have changed, but by and

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Speaker 3: large the rhythm of life would remain the same. Then

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Speaker 3: you move to sixteen hundred, fifteen hundred and six hundred,

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Speaker 3: things are starting to change. Take the invention of the

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Speaker 3: printing press. Suddenly you're living in this village, but you

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Speaker 3: hear a word that man you can make good money

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Speaker 3: by moving to the city and learning how to print,

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Speaker 3: becoming part of a printer's set up. Well over the

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Speaker 3: next few centuries. Of course, the printing press is only

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Speaker 3: one of the technological innovations. You get to the nineteenth century,

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Speaker 3: the Industrial Revolution. Everything's changing. People are moving from the

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Speaker 3: countryside into the city's. Families are getting the network of

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Speaker 3: family connections is getting smaller, The ability to move around

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Speaker 3: is getting more and more possible. Everything that once fixed

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Speaker 3: your identity is now up for grabs. Now move into

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Speaker 3: the twenty first century, and as you pointed out, Shaw

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Speaker 3: in the last ten or fifteen years, we haven't just

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Speaker 3: had the invention of the printing press. We're getting the

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Speaker 3: equivalent of the printing press being invented every three or

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Speaker 3: four months. I was sitting in the airport yesterday or

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Speaker 3: the day before and looked around and everybody in the

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Speaker 3: departure lounge was staring at a tiny little screen, and

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking, Wow, this scene would have been impossible to

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Speaker 3: imagine fifteen years ago, and yet now it's quite normal.

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Speaker 3: Fifteen years ago, people might have been talking to each other,

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Speaker 3: the departure lounge might have been animated by the buzz

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Speaker 3: of conversation. Now it's this silent scrolling that's taking place

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Speaker 3: that's not incidental to who we are. How we think

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Speaker 3: about life is increasingly mediated through a tiny handheld screen.

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Speaker 3: And who knows what's coming next. Who knows what's coming next.

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Speaker 4: So one thing I appreciate about the book is you

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Speaker 4: moved from the general to the specific in the second half,

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Speaker 4: and you apply some of these some of the anthropology

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Speaker 4: that you lay out in Sexual Revolution to end of

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Speaker 4: life in other other controversial areas. So let's let's let's

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Speaker 4: look at the Sexual Revolution for a moment. How is

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Speaker 4: how is this the sexual revolution rooted in this more

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Speaker 4: contemporary understanding of human nature? And you've talked about technology already,

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Speaker 4: but technology has a lot to do with that in

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Speaker 4: this regard too. Yeah, so I'd love to hear your

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Speaker 4: thoughts on sort of both those things.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, first of all, you know, if we think

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Speaker 3: about the nature of sexual desire, it's a hearty perennial

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Speaker 3: of human existence. There's a reason why when I talk

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Speaker 3: to students of Grove City College we talk about the Iliad.

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Speaker 3: Let's say, we can understand the Iliad. It's you know,

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Speaker 3: it's from many centuries before Christ, but it's dealing with

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Speaker 3: the basic perennial story of one man sexually desires another

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Speaker 3: man's wife, runs off with the jilted guy gets together

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Speaker 3: with his brother heads overseas to get his wife back.

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Speaker 3: We can understand the basic dynamics of the story. Why,

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Speaker 3: because sexual desire and sex is powerful. That's a perennial

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Speaker 3: of human existence. And that tells me that when thinking

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Speaker 3: about what sex is and how it works changes, something

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Speaker 3: very fundamentally is going on in how we think about

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Speaker 3: what it means to be a human being. Now, there's

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Speaker 3: always been sexual transgression. The Bible is for the examples

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Speaker 3: of sexual transgression and is full of laws against sexual transgression.

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Speaker 3: If there was no sexual transgression in the Bible times,

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Speaker 3: there'll be no need for those laws, no basis for

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Speaker 3: those stories. But certain kinds of sexual behavior were always

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Speaker 3: regarded as transgressive. The norm was one man. One man

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Speaker 3: leaves his mother and father becomes one body with a woman,

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Speaker 3: they have children. That was the norm. Think about how

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Speaker 3: that's changed in recent years. Sexual revolution, say, doesn't just

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Speaker 3: represent a shift in sexual behavior. It represents a fundamental

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Speaker 3: shift in sexual attitudes. Sex has ceased to be a

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Speaker 3: seal on a unique relationship between one man and one woman,

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Speaker 3: primarily for the purpose of reinforcing that union and the

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Speaker 3: production of children, and has moved to being thought of

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Speaker 3: as recreation. Now again, sex's recreation. That's not a new thing.

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Speaker 3: The difference between now and say, two hundred years ago,

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Speaker 3: is two hundred years ago you had to be wealthy

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Speaker 3: to get away with sex's recreation. The English royal family

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Speaker 3: they could do it and get away with it. The

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Speaker 3: average man or woman in the street they might like

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Speaker 3: to have thought of sex as recreation, but they couldn't

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Speaker 3: act on that thought, because she's going to get pregnant,

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Speaker 3: He's going to get a nasty disease. They are going

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Speaker 3: to be serious biological social consequences. But now we have technology,

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Speaker 3: We have easy access to contraception, plenty of antibiotics out

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Speaker 3: there to deal with those unpleasant diseases abortion if you

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Speaker 3: do get pregnant. That allowed us not only to think

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Speaker 3: that sex is mere recreation, it allows us to act

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Speaker 3: as if sex is mere recreation. And that involves a

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Speaker 3: fundamental transformation of what it means to be human. And

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Speaker 3: one of the interesting statistics that I'm told by friends

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Speaker 3: who work in the pro life area is this, when

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Speaker 3: when the pill was legalized, you would have expected the

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Speaker 3: number of abortions to drop, Actually the number of abortions

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Speaker 3: goes up. Ask yourself, why is that the case, I

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Speaker 3: would say, because the social imagination of what sex is shifts,

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Speaker 3: so that pregnancy comes to be seen as an unfortunate,

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Speaker 3: accidental byproduct, a problem, and not the actual end or purpose.

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Speaker 3: So sexual revolution involves fundamental revision of what sex means,

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Speaker 3: not simply an expansion of what you can do sexually,

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Speaker 3: and in the process involves a fundamental revision of what

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Speaker 3: it means to be a human being.

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Speaker 4: Follow up on that briefly, if I heard you correctly yesterday. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know, with our faculty, you you seem to have

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Speaker 4: some sort some guarded allowance for some forms of contraception.

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Speaker 4: I take it. I take it what you meant by

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Speaker 4: that was the ones that are bortifacient are problematic, and

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Speaker 4: the ones that are genuinely contraceptive would be would be acceptable.

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Speaker 4: Did I hear you correctly on that?

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Speaker 3: Yes? I mean what I would say about my own

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Speaker 3: position at this point in time is one I would

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Speaker 3: certainly say abortifacients are wrong. In terms of non abortifacient

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Speaker 3: forms of contraception, I think I'm a work in progres

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Speaker 3: What I would say is that I don't think Protestantism

405
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Speaker 3: wrestled with the issue at the depth it should do.

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Speaker 3: That the issue of contraception sort of passed almost by

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Speaker 3: accident into Protestant culture after the Lambeth Conference of nineteen thirty.

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Speaker 3: I think it was, and very few of us Protestants,

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Speaker 3: and I include myself and that have thought very deeply

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Speaker 3: about the issue at all. I think Catholics. Catholics are

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Speaker 3: able to knock us from pillar to post on that

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Speaker 3: because we haven't thought about it deeply enough. Certainly abortifations

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Speaker 3: are wrong, whether non abordifational forms of contraception are wrong,

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Speaker 3: I'm a work in progress on that, but I would

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Speaker 3: still say that only have a legitimate within the context

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Speaker 3: of a marriage, of course, so still would not legitimate

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Speaker 3: sex as pure recreation.

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Speaker 4: For the record, I'll come back to that in a minute.

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Speaker 2: I would love to have that conversation with you separately.

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Speaker 2: I'm a work in progress too, and I've not seen

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Speaker 2: good Protestant answers to some of the Catholic theology of

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Speaker 2: the body. Not to mention you only have the effects

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Speaker 2: of contraception like the pill, etc. But the imprinciple argument itself,

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Speaker 2: But that's a separate issue that would take as aside

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Speaker 2: for now. You also talk about pornography and how that

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Speaker 2: revolution the accessibility of pornography now a I with pornography

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Speaker 2: and through social media is changing so many things. You

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Speaker 2: criticize pornography and sexual activity outside of marriage partly because

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Speaker 2: they deny the unitive and procreative functions of sex and

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Speaker 2: thus turn sex into a solely or primarily recreational activity,

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Speaker 2: which turns people into objects and commodities.

432
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: That's kind of the heart of the case you make.

433
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: Everyone would agree with it.

434
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: How and why do you marshal a similar criticism against IVF.

435
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 2: What's the root of your concern with IVF?

436
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, a number of concerns with if one, there is

437
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 3: a definite connection between IVF and eugenics, that IVF encourages

438
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 3: us to think about children as things that we design

439
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 3: and purchase. IVF must ultimately press society towards thinking about

440
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 3: what lives are worth living and which what lives are

441
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 3: not worth living. As soon as we take control of

442
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 3: conception at that level, when we're effectively tinkering with what

443
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 3: it means to be a human being, the tendency will

444
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 3: be towards a sort of master race thinking about children.

445
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 3: And we already see that to some extent in a

446
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 3: place like Iceland, where Iceland famously boasts that it has

447
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 3: eliminated Down syndrome, whereas what Iceland has actually done is

448
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 3: decided that baby is in the womb with Down syndrome

449
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: are unworthy of life and therefore should be eliminated. I

450
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 3: would say more honest approach to say we've eliminated persons

451
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 3: with Down syndrome. Not we've eliminated down syndrome. So my

452
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 3: concern about IVF is again the commodification of children, the

453
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 3: eugenics that lie behind it. Now, when I wrote that chapter,

454
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 3: I thought, this is the chapter that I get most Hately.

455
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: You wrote that in there.

456
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the one that I'll get in trouble for

457
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: because it's easy for a man who found it easy

458
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 3: to have children with his wife to say the things

459
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: I said. Couples who are childless and are desperate for

460
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: children heartbreaking situation. And I can see the pull the

461
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,360
Speaker 3: attraction of IVF there, and the way I the way

462
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 3: I look at it is this, it's the couple desire

463
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,959
Speaker 3: a good thing, that's right. What they need to do

464
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 3: is reflect upon the wider implications of how society thinks

465
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 3: about children concerning the specific line of or course of

466
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: action that they are attempting to approach. And I would

467
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 3: recommend you know, don't listen to somebody like me on it.

468
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 3: Get hold of the work of Elizabeth Kirk, wonderful professor

469
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:05,719
Speaker 3: with Catholic University of America, wonderful person who herself she

470
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: and her husband struggled for many years with infertility she's

471
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 3: very opposed to IVF, and she can write with authority

472
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: on that issue in a way that a man like

473
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 3: myself lacks that personal authority to speak to it.

474
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,359
Speaker 2: That's great, super helpful. Can I push in on one

475
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: thing here? So the concern tied to eugenics, I think

476
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 2: all people would share that it turns individuals into commodities

477
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 2: that are human beings. There's also the concern tied to

478
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 2: a theology the body, like what is the body? What

479
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: is the purpose of the body, and is there a

480
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: built in design and intention for fertilization and IVF? The

481
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 2: term test to baby, I think you stay in the

482
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: book is not entirely false where fertilization takes place. So

483
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 2: it's also your concern that there's an in principle reimagining

484
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: what fertilization is supposed to look like sexual reproduction ties

485
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,959
Speaker 2: to eugenics aside.

486
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 3: Yes, I think so, and I would go to the

487
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,479
Speaker 3: the the I think the very provocative and helpful title

488
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 3: of Olive O. Donovan it's little book Begotten or Made?

489
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 3: And he makes a distinction there between you, do we

490
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 3: think of children has begotten or do we think of

491
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 3: them as made? I would say In other words, do

492
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: we think of them as mysterious creations that we mysteriously

493
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 3: beget or do we think of them as products that

494
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 3: we make? That I think touches on something really very

495
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 3: very important there, Yeah, go for it.

496
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 4: Pursue that a little bit further. You describe dehumanizing as

497
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 4: essentially treating a person as a thing, Yeah, and treating

498
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 4: him as a means to an in and of themselves.

499
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 4: So take this for example, in full disclosure here, this

500
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 4: is one of the areas that Sean and I have it.

501
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 4: We don't have too many significant differences, but this is

502
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 4: one of his. So let's let's take the IVF situation. Uh,

503
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 4: you've got an infertile couple. My wife and I didn't

504
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 4: go down the I v F road, but we definitely

505
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 4: went down the infertility road. And the you know, the

506
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 4: angst and you described as is very real. But you know,

507
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 4: a couple wrestling with infertility for whom I v F

508
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 4: is the indicated treatment. Just to be clear, a huge

509
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 4: problems with the standard of practice in IVF. But I'm

510
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 4: looking at more of the idea of conceiving a child

511
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 4: outside the womb and intrinsically it seems to me if

512
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 4: the if the child or the embryo, which they would

513
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 4: which they regard as a child and as they they

514
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 4: rightly should. Uh. And and they the child is desperately

515
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 4: wanted and will be loved and brought into brought into

516
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 4: the same kind of family environment that he or she

517
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 4: would have had they been conceived naturally. Uh. Where it's

518
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 4: it's hard. It's hard for me to see how that

519
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 4: child is being dehumanized, right, So help.

520
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 3: Me with that. Yeah. And I think the interesting aspect

521
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: of that is I've had this response when I've spoken

522
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,840
Speaker 3: on this, somebody come up to me afterwards and said,

523
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 3: you know, we had a child by IVF. Are you

524
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 3: saying my child's not a human being? And absolute I don't.

525
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 3: I'm not talking about dehumanization in that way. I'm thinking

526
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,400
Speaker 3: about the general way in which society imagines children to be,

527
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 3: that they start to become products, they start become a thing.

528
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 3: That's not to deny the very real love that the

529
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 3: couple who've conceived a child through IVF have for that child.

530
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: Not not, not at all. Is it to deny that.

531
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 3: It's to look at the broader social framework that's being

532
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 3: developed that could lead to very bad consequences on on

533
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: a broader front. So that's what I'm thinking.

534
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 4: I would certainly agree that, you know, the eugenic temptation, yeah,

535
00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 4: is one that we should have done away with back

536
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 4: in the get around the turn of the twentieth century,

537
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 4: when when it really got started. Yeah, I'm not convinced

538
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,080
Speaker 4: that that's a necessary part of what right.

539
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 3: And you know, if I could, I won't say put

540
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 3: the case against me, but if I were to alter

541
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 3: the terms of debate, I would say, you know, no

542
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 3: fault divorce does a similar thing to children, actually, because

543
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 3: no fault divorce treats children as a problem to be

544
00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 3: solved after the parents are separated. No fault divorce has

545
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 3: to treat them in the same way that you know,

546
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 3: who gets the dog after we get divorced, Well, it's

547
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 3: it's more emotionally intense, perhaps, but who gets the children?

548
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: You are reducing children in no fault divorce. So I

549
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 3: certainly don't want to be read as saying IVF is

550
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 3: is unique in the way it tilts the culture to

551
00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 3: think about children. There are many aspects about coach and I.

552
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 4: Think I mean, I would admit it does it does

553
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 4: open the door. Yeah, I think to the eugenic temptation.

554
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 3: A more more dramatic example, of course, provided by surrogacy.

555
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 3: And I used the example in the book of Baby Gammy,

556
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 3: who was conceived by surrogate for an Australian couple. And

557
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: then it was discovered that baby Gammy, I think, had

558
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 3: down syndrome. And it led to this on long running

559
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 3: legal debates about who the parents were, those who provided

560
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 3: the genetic material, or the woman who was carrying the child,

561
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: and ultimately the courts decided it was the woman carrying

562
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 3: the child. The parents had wanted her to have an

563
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 3: abortion and she refused and brought the child into the world,

564
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 3: and it's bringing the child up. And that's you know,

565
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 3: if you're looking for a modern Handmaid's tale that objectifies

566
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 3: woman and objectifies children, you know it's it's not the

567
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: Handmaid's tale. It's surrogacy that pursue.

568
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: I know I've got some questions too, but go for it.

569
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: You're the boss.

570
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 3: This is fun.

571
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 4: I'm enjoying it, only only for a short time. To

572
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 4: go back to your contraception, yeah, I mean, see to

573
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 4: me that one of the things the acceptance of contraception does.

574
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 4: And I admit if you're still a work in progress.

575
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 4: I'll give you some grace on that. But the contraception

576
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 4: does separate the unitive and procreated aspects of sex, and

577
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 4: or it makes it makes the it makes the bringing

578
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 4: those having to have those always be together, It makes

579
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 4: that less of an absolute right, and so that there

580
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:31,800
Speaker 4: there would be situations where it would be justifiable to

581
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 4: separate the unitive and procreated aspects of sex. So if

582
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 4: that's the case for for for contraception, why wouldn't that

583
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,080
Speaker 4: be the also the case on the other side of

584
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 4: the coin, right when it comes to separating procreation from

585
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 4: normal sexual relations.

586
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 3: Because I think it separates procreation dramatically from the unitive.

587
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,080
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what I would say, that the purpose

588
00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 3: of sex is, you know, the man and one become

589
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 3: one flat. The unitive, I suppose, in my thinking, has

590
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:08,360
Speaker 3: priority at that point, and procreation becomes a function of

591
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 3: the unitive, but not always a function of the unitive.

592
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,200
Speaker 3: Now a Catholic would push back and say of them too,

593
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 3: but I would say they're not parallel instances.

594
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 4: I wonder what you what you would make of this,

595
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 4: because it seems to me that God has ordained a

596
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 4: natural separation of the unitive andpropriative aspects of sex with

597
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 4: the phenomena of menopause. And I take it that. For example,

598
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 4: in Genesis, IA's wife Sarah was shocked and thought thought

599
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 4: it preposterous, Yeah, that she could conceive that her advance

600
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 4: was So what that suggests to me is that menopause

601
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 4: is something that is part of the natural order of

602
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:56,399
Speaker 4: things and not not a result of the general entrance

603
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 4: of sin. Right, So if menopause is a guy ordained

604
00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 4: separation of that, and why why why would contraception be

605
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 4: problematic as long as it's not a border fatient.

606
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 3: I think that's a good that's a good argument, and

607
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 3: that's certainly something I would want to take into account

608
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 3: when thinking about that contraception. As I said, I'm not

609
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 3: willing to concede as yet to my Catholic friends that

610
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,760
Speaker 3: the unitive and the procreative have to always be held together.

611
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 3: I think that's in the same way that I think,

612
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 3: you know, we can eat food, but eating food is

613
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,320
Speaker 3: not just about replacing calories. There are all kinds of

614
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 3: other things that flow from a good meal. So, yeah,

615
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 3: that would probably be the strongest.

616
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 4: I've actually tried that out on a handful of my

617
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 4: Catholic friends.

618
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 3: Did it work? No?

619
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 4: Yes, they had no. They had no answer for Oh,

620
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 4: that's good.

621
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 3: I'll have to remember next time in conversation.

622
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,839
Speaker 2: I want to circle back on that food, that last

623
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 2: one you made later. The Catholic response would be, just

624
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 2: because there's a God ordained separation doesn't mean we can

625
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 2: choose to add a separation for desires and times that

626
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: we want. That would be the Catholic response to thattestant response.

627
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: So just putting it out there, and the one before

628
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,600
Speaker 2: your question about how does it dehumanize the unborn and

629
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: conceived by science, Stephanie gray Connor says, part of being

630
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 2: human is that we are designed to be conceived inside

631
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 2: our mom and our dad, and kids have the moral

632
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,760
Speaker 2: right to be the result of a love making between

633
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: mom and dad and conceived naturally through that process. To

634
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 2: remove it in a test tube that we control rather

635
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,439
Speaker 2: than mystery is a kind of dehumanization. Now again, whether

636
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 2: there's a response to that or not, we're getting getting aside.

637
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,200
Speaker 4: Tough one to get my arms around that.

638
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: So fair enough, but I think i've both of us

639
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 1: want to keep going down.

640
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 4: Okay, So.

641
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: We had a whole conversation about IVF, back and forth.

642
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 2: And I'm still in process on some of these things,

643
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 2: leaning more towards a Catholic position because I think they're

644
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 2: far more consistent as a whole, But still in process.

645
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 2: Let's move to something totally different. You also talk about

646
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: how Christian approaches to death sometimes mirror.

647
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: The secular world.

648
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: So what is the secular world's approach and how do

649
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: Christians sometimes mirror this? And I realized this is a

650
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,760
Speaker 2: complicated question. You got this, but what's the secular world's approach?

651
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: How do we mirror it? How should we actually deal

652
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: with death?

653
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 3: I think the secular world response to death in various ways,

654
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 3: but one might say primarily by trivializing it or marginalizing it,

655
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 3: pretending it doesn't mappen. And I think in the Christian circles,

656
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 3: the rise of the phenomenon of celebrations of life a

657
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 3: funerals would be one good example. Now, again, I certainly

658
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 3: don't want to be implying that somebody who had the

659
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 3: celebration of life for their dear beloved late father is

660
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 3: sinning in that, But I would ask the question of

661
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,479
Speaker 3: why use the language celebration of life if the life

662
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 3: was worth celebrating. Surely the death is worth mourning. We

663
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 3: need to understand that death is catastrophic. Death leaves those

664
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 3: left behind reduced. I mentioned in I think it was

665
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 3: in chapel this morning at Biola. The first account we

666
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 3: have of weeping in the Bible is Abraham going in

667
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 3: and weeping for his wife Sarah. And I made the

668
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 3: comment there that of all people on the face of

669
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 3: the planet at that moment in time, Abraham knows the answer,

670
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 3: He knows the covenant God, and he knows that God

671
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 3: is going to be bringing things to a satisfactory conclusion,

672
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 3: and yet he weeps for the loss of his wife.

673
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 3: And the application I drew this morning was it's okay

674
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 3: to weep in la mint when a loved one dies.

675
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 3: And I think we as Christians need to We need

676
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,840
Speaker 3: to face up to death as the horror that it

677
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 3: is and not take the temptation of the therapeutic temptation

678
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 3: of trying to make it something.

679
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 4: Other than that.

680
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 1: That's great, that's really helpful.

681
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 2: I think we can see Ernest Becker, who talked about

682
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 2: the way we don't take death seriously, is even the

683
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 2: language we have passing away and no longer with us

684
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 2: is a reflection of trivializing it but not really coming

685
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 2: to grips with the weight of what death is right.

686
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 4: How do you balance that with the biblical notion that

687
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 4: death is a conquered enemy.

688
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think we mourn, but not as those

689
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 3: without hope. I think when my father died, I was reduced.

690
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 3: I'm still reduced. I'm still less of a person than

691
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,759
Speaker 3: I was when he was alive. And it's right to

692
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 3: mourn and lament that, even though I know that that

693
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 3: could well be put right at the end of time.

694
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 3: In the interim, I more to lament him. Think of

695
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 3: a more trivial example. You know, when you're traveling and

696
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 3: you're away from your wife, if you had to say

697
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 3: to your wife, well, I was away from you, but

698
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 3: frankly they didn't care, didn't have any effect on me.

699
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,759
Speaker 3: Your wife would say, wow, our relationship is dysfunctional in

700
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 3: some pretty deep and profound way. And I would want

701
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 3: to say, if if you can simply shrug your shoulders

702
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 3: at the death of a loved one, then they weren't

703
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 3: really a loved one. Because our loved ones make us

704
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 3: who we are, and when they're torn from us, we're

705
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 3: reduced by that. So we mourn as Abraham mourned. But

706
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 3: Abraham had he had a resurrection. No Christ himself says,

707
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 3: Abraham saw my day and rejoiced. Abraham knew what was coming.

708
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 3: But even so the remaining days of his earthly life

709
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 3: he was a less of a person because his beloved

710
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 3: Sarah had been taken from him.

711
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 4: One thing I've known I spent about fifteen years consulting

712
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 4: at the bedside for hospitals on ethics, and one thing

713
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:16,200
Speaker 4: I saw, particularly among believing families was this tenacious desire

714
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,839
Speaker 4: to hold on to their loved one when the prognosis

715
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 4: was very bleak, and what they were really doing was

716
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 4: just delaying and inevitable and sort of semi imminent homecoming. Yeah, yeah,

717
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 4: And I've often, I often wanted to say to them,

718
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,200
Speaker 4: do you actually believe this stuff that you say you

719
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 4: believe about eternity and resurrection and you know in the

720
00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 4: hope of the Gospel? And I wonder if there's if

721
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 4: there's some sort of dehumanizing of our loved ones at

722
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 4: the end of life when we make decisions based on

723
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 4: what's best for us because we don't want to let

724
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 4: them go, as opposed to what might be best for them.

725
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a very interesting comment.

726
00:42:59,200 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 4: In my mind.

727
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 3: Me went to something that I used to wrestle with

728
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 3: when I was a pastor and we'd have times of

729
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 3: prayer in the evening where congrests were allowed to make

730
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 3: prayer requests and then whoever's leading in worship would offer

731
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,280
Speaker 3: those prayers to God. And you would get that occasionally,

732
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 3: get that question or that prayer request. You know, my

733
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 3: ninety eight year old grandmother has had a four Can

734
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 3: we pray that the surgeons put her back together? And

735
00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 3: she's okay? And I'm thinking that's a legitimate prayer, But

736
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 3: at what point do we also pray But if it's

737
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 3: not your will fora to be put back together, Lord,

738
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 3: may she have a safe and as comfortable a passing

739
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: as possible into the next world. We're unwilling to make

740
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: those prayers. And I think whether i'd use the language

741
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 3: of dehumanizing about that, I'm not sure I'd have to

742
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 3: think about that, but I do think there is there's

743
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 3: a serious pastoral issue there that we and when you

744
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 3: think about the majority of prayers my experience, and I'm

745
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 3: as guilty as as anybody. Majority of prayers at times

746
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 3: about and prayer or prayer, they're often focused on bodily

747
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 3: health issues, right, you know, young and all, we tend

748
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 3: to be praying for broken arms and bruises and headaches

749
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 3: and nose bleeds. Paul doesn't in his letters, have a

750
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 3: lot to say about those things, by and large, He's

751
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 3: praying more about the joy and the grace that the

752
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 3: saints are grown.

753
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, but they do when it gets serious, like with

754
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 4: the ninety eight year old grandmother, they do pray for

755
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 4: a miracle.

756
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:26,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

757
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 4: And I've often been I've often been tempted to say, well,

758
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,440
Speaker 4: if we're going to go we're going to hope for

759
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 4: a miracle, then let's really go for it, yeah, and

760
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 4: turn off everything, yeah, and trust God for that and

761
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 4: essentially turn the person back over to God.

762
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 3: And the great miracle is the resurrection. Of course, that

763
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 3: is the great medicle.

764
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, Carl, your book before this was on critical theory.

765
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, but critical theory is a little bit like kind

766
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:52,160
Speaker 2: of a golden thread that runs through this that you

767
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 2: interact with. Is critical theory the kind of thing that

768
00:44:56,719 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 2: we can take. I think it was phrased yesterday in

769
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 2: the staff meeting in a question to you kind of

770
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 2: chew the meat and spit out the bones, right, or

771
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: is this something that should be completely rejected and we

772
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 2: should just be interested in the questions that motivate people

773
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: to consider and believe in critical theory.

774
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,800
Speaker 3: I think there are certain aspects of critical theory that

775
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 3: are interesting. Critical theory will tend, for example, to challenge

776
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 3: other people, you know, has your philosophy delivered on its

777
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 3: own terms? And I think that's a useful approach. For Christians.

778
00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 3: We look at the sexual Revolution and say, okay, sexual

779
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:36,480
Speaker 3: revolution promise to liberate women. Has it liberated women? No?

780
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 3: So I think there are things we can learn from

781
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 3: critical theory on that front. I would never use the

782
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 3: language of describing it as a useful tool or saying,

783
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:46,959
Speaker 3: you know, we can chew on the meat and spit

784
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 3: out the bones, because for critical theory purists, of course,

785
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 3: it stands the falls as a whole. It's not a

786
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 3: descriptive or analytic thing. It's a revolutionary thing. The idea

787
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 3: is not to describe and explain reality. The idea is

788
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 3: to change or transform reality. What intrigued me about and

789
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 3: this connects to the theme of this, but what intrigued

790
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 3: me about critical theories in twenty twenty twenty twenty one,

791
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 3: what I'd always regard is as pretty complicated, an obscure

792
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 3: branch of the humanities suddenly became the stock in trade

793
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 3: of the Internet. It among people who probably never read

794
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,920
Speaker 3: any critical theory in their lives. So critical theory must

795
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 3: resonate pretty deeply. Some of its ideas, or some of

796
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: its slogans resonate with ordinary people out there on the Internet.

797
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 3: And I came to the conclusion that what resonated was

798
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 3: the its negation. It loves smashing up that which is,

799
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 3: and that of course ties in beautifully it does with

800
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 3: the idea of modernity as committed to desecration. That's why

801
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 3: in queer theory you will find the language of desecration

802
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,839
Speaker 3: popping up, because that's what they think they're doing. They're

803
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 3: tearing down that which previous generations have considered to be

804
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 3: holy insacrosanct M.

805
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: We get to go any last questions, and I'm sure

806
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: we could go for hours.

807
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 4: We go for quite a long time, but I think

808
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 4: we should probably this is probably a good place to stop.

809
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, good stuff, Carl, say it again. Thoroughly enjoyed your book.

810
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 2: I've got a highlight and underline. I could show you

811
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 2: all through here. I would recommend it to our listeners

812
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,240
Speaker 2: and our viewers as much as any.

813
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 4: Book three times. But I have under.

814
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: Well, he only needs to do it once he gets it.

815
00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: I'm a little slower.

816
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 4: It takes.

817
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 3: Anything I've ever written even once. So she reads the

818
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,640
Speaker 3: foreword this to make sure that I thank you.

819
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 2: Well, Carl Truman. Appreciate you being on campus, meeting with

820
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 2: the staff, meeting with the students. Join us in the studio.

821
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: We'll do it again for sure.

822
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 3: Thanks very much. Being lovely to be here in the flesh.

823
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, this has been part of the Think Bivot podcast

824
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: conversations on faith and culture.

825
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 1: We'd love to have you join us on campus.

826
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 2: We have master's programs and apologetics, worldview, theology, ethics, marriage

827
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:13,680
Speaker 2: and family doctoral programs. If you have questions for us,

828
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:17,319
Speaker 2: you can send them into Think Biblically at Biola dot edu.

829
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for listening, and remember to check out

830
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 2: our Friday weekly cultural Update.

831
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:24,160
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832
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,320
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834
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837
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:43,279
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00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:47,239
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839
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:50,600
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840
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841
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843
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844
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Speaker 2: next episode drops.

845
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 3: Mm hmmm, h m hm