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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer. I'm joined

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Speaker 1: again by doctor Cheese Farmer. We're continuing our series on

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Speaker 1: Christian manhood and we're going to talk a little bit

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Speaker 1: more about fatherhood today. Last conversation we had on fatherhood,

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Speaker 1: we got into this idea that there isn't a recipe

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Speaker 1: for being a Christian father. Like a lot of times,

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Speaker 1: it requires improvisation. We've talked about that in other episodes

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Speaker 1: and different topics, but one of my favorites is Chopped.

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Speaker 1: It's this Food Network show where they give you a

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Speaker 1: mystery back ask it, and if you're an expert enough chef,

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Speaker 1: you can actually make something edible out of gummy bears

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Speaker 1: and beat root and other strange ingredients. Right, And so

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Speaker 1: the idea I think with the kids is sort of

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Speaker 1: like a kid is like a mystery basket. You're given

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Speaker 1: this set of ingredients, and your job as a Christian

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Speaker 1: father is to be an expert enough chef that you

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Speaker 1: can actually help this child become something palatable. It's probably

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Speaker 1: a little more important than that, but you get the drift.

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Speaker 1: There's an improvisational aspect to raising kids that's really crucial,

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Speaker 1: and so Ashesh and I talked a little bit about

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Speaker 1: this after the last episode, and one of the things

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Speaker 1: we both had sort of interesting convictions around was and

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Speaker 1: a question I've been asking off a lot, why didn't

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Speaker 1: I send my kids to private school, specifically private Christian school,

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Speaker 1: And so we thought we might dive into that. I

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Speaker 1: know that's kind of a hot topic right now, with

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Speaker 1: public school education taking a bit of a hit in

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Speaker 1: recent years, and so it might be an interesting topic

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Speaker 1: and for us to just talk through this improvisational aspect

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Speaker 1: of being a father. So I'll leave it there. I

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Speaker 1: don't know whether you want to give any additional preamble, but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let me give the warning label of this isn't

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Speaker 2: bash on private school. This isn't no one should send

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Speaker 2: their kid to private school. That's not that's not the conversation.

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Speaker 2: The conversation is specifically geared towards its improvisational reality. As

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Speaker 2: we think improvisationally, as we think about what's before us.

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Speaker 2: Why is it that we've come to the decisions that

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Speaker 2: we have with our kids? Not nothing more than that.

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Speaker 2: Nothing prescriptive or totalitarian about whether or not you should

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Speaker 2: send them. There.

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Speaker 3: No, And it's a good disclaimer.

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Speaker 1: And I will say that just to give people a

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Speaker 1: little bit more context. My wife and I recently adopted

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Speaker 1: a young girl. She was four, and we adopt her.

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Speaker 1: She's five now she's going to private school. So we

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Speaker 1: sent her to a private Lutheran school in her area.

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Speaker 1: Just to give the brief thumbnail sketch before we jump in.

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Speaker 1: It isn't a choice that we probably would have made,

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Speaker 1: but the preschool in our area, the public preschool in

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Speaker 1: our area, was full, and so we needed a place

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Speaker 1: to send her. Obviously to preschool. And so given that

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Speaker 1: the public school couldn't take her for full days, you

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Speaker 1: could take her for a kind of half days. There's

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Speaker 1: a whole thing there, But because they couldn't take her

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Speaker 1: for full days and we needed her to be in

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Speaker 1: full days.

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Speaker 3: We opted for private school. So it was a pragmatic choice.

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Speaker 1: But I can talk about this a little bit more,

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Speaker 1: but it's ended up being a really good spot for her,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know that we would have recognized that

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Speaker 1: had we just, you know, sort of not been pushed

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Speaker 1: to it. But I think we're both very glad that

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Speaker 1: she ended up in a private school. So yeah, no

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Speaker 1: private school bashing, no real public school bashing either. Quite frankly,

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Speaker 1: I think the whole point of this is you have

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Speaker 1: different kids with different needs, in different dispositions, and so

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Speaker 1: you're asking yourself as a parent, particularly as a father,

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Speaker 1: where is it that this kid is going to thrive?

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Speaker 1: And I think that's the real big question, at least

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Speaker 1: we were trying to answer as we were thinking about

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Speaker 1: our kids and where to send them.

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Speaker 2: To school, right, and that question about where they're going

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Speaker 2: to thrive gets maybe to the heart of the question

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Speaker 2: of improvisation that we tried to start to draw out

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Speaker 2: when looking at the text that these passages. We looked

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Speaker 2: at Ephesians colautions, neither one is terribly specific, and you'd

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Speaker 2: be hard pressed to find really any passage in scripture

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Speaker 2: that's terribly specific. Even when you look at something like

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Speaker 2: the Book of Proverbs. That's the framework that it's written in,

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Speaker 2: is a father talking to his son. At least the

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Speaker 2: first part of the Book of Proverbs is written that way.

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Speaker 2: While you do get this distinction between Lady Wisdom, who

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Speaker 2: this father wants a son to chase, and Lady Folly,

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Speaker 2: who this father wants to warrant his son about, the

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Speaker 2: descriptions remain still general, right, They're about the sorts of

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Speaker 2: things that Lady Wisdom does and produces and the sorts

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Speaker 2: of things lady Folly does and produces. Right, And why

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Speaker 2: long term, one truly is the path of wisdom, and

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Speaker 2: one truly is the.

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Speaker 3: Path of folly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but if you're looking for, you know, the ten

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Speaker 2: things that you need to have to make sure that

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Speaker 2: you avoid lady or Lady Folly, you're not finding.

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Speaker 4: Them, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And that but that dynamic, I think is to the

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Speaker 2: heart of the Biblical account that it is, especially with

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Speaker 2: its abundant concern for wisdom, right, such that Paul even

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Speaker 2: frames several his own letters in terms of wisdom. Jesus

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Speaker 2: speaks his Sermon on the Mount is him as the

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Speaker 2: wise teacher. This very strong and deliberate focus on wisdom

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Speaker 2: in the scripture is meant to create people who are adaptive.

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Speaker 2: And that's the idea of improvisation. Can I enter into

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Speaker 2: a situation that's totally new or totally outside the framework

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Speaker 2: of what I might have expected, and have the ability

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Speaker 2: to operate within it, And in some ways we get

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Speaker 2: this in other avenues of life. I've never been a

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Speaker 2: great instrumental player, but one thing that I've noticed from

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Speaker 2: those who are is the truly best musicians are the

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Speaker 2: ones who have such a handle on their craft that

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Speaker 2: they're able to riff off others. In fact, the whole

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Speaker 2: genre of jazz is built on this. We've talked before

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Speaker 2: about sports and athletic events, and that's been where much

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Speaker 2: of my life has been wrapped up. And I think

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Speaker 2: think what I've seen is what makes the best basketball

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Speaker 2: players and the best tennis players. Right. You think of

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Speaker 2: the Michael Jordans, you think of the Magic Johnson's, the

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Speaker 2: Roger Fetterer's. That is their ability to take what you

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Speaker 2: give them and to over accept is what some sociologists

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Speaker 2: would say, I receive it and I can in that

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Speaker 2: moment from my training, use my mastery of the footwork,

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Speaker 2: use my mastery of understanding defensive rotations, things like that

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Speaker 2: to make the next play in a way in which

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Speaker 2: you can't you can't shock me. Right, If we can

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Speaker 2: transfer that to the parenting landscape, there's so many things.

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Speaker 2: There's so many things that we encounter, and in a

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Speaker 2: world that's changing more rapidly than ever, there's so much

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Speaker 2: you can't anticipate. But it's about being able to both

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Speaker 2: understand who your children are so that you can help

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Speaker 2: them become the kinds of people that themselves can understand

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Speaker 2: situations that are totally new, and work within the patterns

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Speaker 2: of God's grace to live accordingly. Right, And that's what

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Speaker 2: wisdom is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the other side of this so

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Speaker 1: I agree with all that. I think the the other

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Speaker 1: side of this is there are some things that we

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Speaker 1: can do that will help us to move toward wisdom,

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Speaker 1: move toward a fear of the Lord. I think of

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Speaker 1: something like Deuteronomy seventeen, right, the Instructions to the future

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Speaker 1: Israeli king supposed to write himself his own copy of

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Speaker 1: the law, have it approved by the priests, read it'll,

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Speaker 1: you know, read it every year, and in that way

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Speaker 1: he is going to learn to fear the Lord. And

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Speaker 1: so I think as fathers, there is something to us.

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Speaker 1: You don't just develop this sort of improvisational instinct because

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Speaker 1: you're a father, right. It isn't just this like, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: I have kids now, and so automatically I'll just emerge

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Speaker 1: as this wonderful father.

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Speaker 3: And that's not quite it.

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Speaker 1: I think there is an intentionality that we have to

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Speaker 1: go through in order to develop that expertise, just like

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Speaker 1: anything else.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: I can remember when I was a personal trainer, right,

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Speaker 1: and when I started out, I did what I would

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Speaker 1: when I knew how to do what I'd done for myself.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: You have people come in and lift really heavy weights.

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Speaker 1: But as I got more and more experience training different

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Speaker 1: sorts of clients, what you quickly realize is that that

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Speaker 1: doesn't work for everybody. It's not really tailored to the individual.

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Speaker 1: There are some people come in, maybe they have an injury,

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Speaker 1: maybe they have an event they're going to go and do.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they have maybe just a particular preference for something,

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Speaker 1: and you have to learn to adapt the workouts to

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Speaker 1: the person while still getting the results. And I think

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Speaker 1: that's sort of it required of me a different sort

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Speaker 1: of learning. I couldn't just lean back and say, well,

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Speaker 1: I've been lifting for fourteen years, I know exactly what

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Speaker 1: I'm doing, because I didn't. I think there had to

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Speaker 1: be adaptation there. And so as we're thinking about fatherhood,

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Speaker 1: there has to be that sort of impetus on fathers

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Speaker 1: to figure this stuff out and to really deeply embed

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Speaker 1: ourselves within God's instruction.

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Speaker 3: In a way that will allow us to have a.

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Speaker 1: Spiritual sensitivity, a godly sensitivity to how to direct our children,

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Speaker 1: so that we're not just thinking through how do I

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Speaker 1: set my kids up so they can be maximally successful,

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Speaker 1: but how do I set my kids up so they

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Speaker 1: can be wise, so that they can be followers of

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Speaker 1: the Lord, so they can be disciples as well. I

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Speaker 1: don't think anything you said contradicts that. I'm just kind

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Speaker 1: of throwing that in there as my little nugget.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good, that's good. And to that point, not

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Speaker 2: to overextend the metaphor. If you're training someone, what that

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Speaker 2: person's doing matters, right, You're gonna you're going to try

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Speaker 2: to reduce bulk and the create and the increasing of strength.

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Speaker 2: For a guard in basketball or for a tennis player

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Speaker 2: who doesn't want bulk, that's going to hurt them. If

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Speaker 2: you're if you're working with an offensive lineman, you.

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Speaker 3: Want bulk, You just want meat.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and that matters both in terms of how

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Speaker 2: the two groups eat, but also in the in terms

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Speaker 2: of the way that they're going to train. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: that's recognizing that maybe after the fact seems more obvious,

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Speaker 2: but walking into the situation maybe is less obvious. And

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Speaker 2: that's what it is with kids, right. We have kids

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Speaker 2: with different personalities. And one of the things that you

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Speaker 2: and I were discussing that I think would be fun

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Speaker 2: to just sort of lay out, parse out the differences

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Speaker 2: is both of our oldest child children are our boys,

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Speaker 2: and as we talked to them, talked about them, we

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Speaker 2: both came to the conclusion that public school is better

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Speaker 2: for them than a private school setting, even as we

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Speaker 2: recognize very different things about their personality. Is what gets

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Speaker 2: them going.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we came to the same conclusion, right, Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: happy to we came to the same conclusion, but for

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Speaker 1: very different reasons.

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Speaker 3: And so.

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Speaker 1: I think the first thing to recognize is, so my

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Speaker 1: son is now twenty. He's studying theology and history at

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Speaker 1: Saint Louis University, so he's double majoram there. He's doing great,

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Speaker 1: great kid. But when he first started school, I would

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Speaker 1: say two things. Number One, we were living in a

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Speaker 1: small town. We were living in Carlonville, Illinois, and so

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Speaker 1: there aren't a lot of private schools around. And my

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Speaker 1: mom was a teacher in the public school. She knew

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Speaker 1: a lot of people, and so it just made sense

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Speaker 1: for us to send him there. Now, once he got

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Speaker 1: started in the public, in the private school or in

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Speaker 1: the public schools, we we eventually moved to Chicago, and

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Speaker 1: so going into Chicago public schools is no simple feat

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Speaker 1: when you're coming from a small town. So you think

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Speaker 1: about going from a class of like I graduated with

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Speaker 1: a class of one hundred. Chicago public schools have a

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Speaker 1: few more students than that. They're really large, they're very urban,

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Speaker 1: and so I can remember thinking about sending my son

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Speaker 1: to this very new context, even though it was still

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Speaker 1: a public school, very different context in Chicago than in Carlinville.

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Speaker 1: So we did look at a private school at that point,

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Speaker 1: but we'd already started to see in Judo this sort

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Speaker 1: of sense that he was going to be a little

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Speaker 1: bit more contrarian. He had this way of thinking through

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Speaker 1: issues even at a very young age, where it was

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Speaker 1: he wasn't going to buy it on the first try,

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Speaker 1: and he was going to question what you were telling him.

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Speaker 3: And so he just had that sort of bent.

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Speaker 1: I think it's part of the reason why history and

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Speaker 1: theology are so fitted to him, right, Like, he likes

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Speaker 1: that sort of pushback and contrariant nature of those disciplines.

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Speaker 1: And so I was concerned about sending him to a

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Speaker 1: Christian private school, not because I thought that he would

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Speaker 1: be getting wrong information, but that I thought he would

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Speaker 1: be reacting to the information he got in that contrarian way.

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Speaker 1: And so if I'm going to lean into his personality

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Speaker 1: and say he's going to push back on whatever he's

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Speaker 1: hearing and he's going to question it, I might as

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Speaker 1: well just send him somewhere where I can deal with

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Speaker 1: the wrong teachings.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: I was happy to have the conversations where he's going

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Speaker 1: to push against some of the things that he may

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Speaker 1: be learning in public school and help him come to

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Speaker 1: a more biblically oriented solution to those or biblically resolution

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Speaker 1: to some of those problems. Then I would have been

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Speaker 1: having to defend something that a private Christian school is

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Speaker 1: teaching him and now becoming part of the antagonism. Let's say,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's pushing now not against the Christian school,

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Speaker 1: but also against me as I'm trying to correct things.

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Speaker 1: And so I felt like it would be simpler to

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Speaker 1: be on the same side with him, that I could

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Speaker 1: question these things, and that we could push against some

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Speaker 1: of these things together, and I could help him sort

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Speaker 1: of refine the way he's doing that and refine his

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Speaker 1: thinking overall. And so public school made perfect sense then

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Speaker 1: for my son, even though we'd moved from, like I said,

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Speaker 1: Carlinville to Chicago. My son went to Chicago Public School

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Speaker 1: for his entire elementary school all the way up into

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Speaker 1: eighth grade. We moved out, he started in the suburbs.

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Speaker 1: We'd moved out to the suburbs at that point for

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Speaker 1: his freshman year in high school. But he went through

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Speaker 1: you know, second grade through eight all in Chicago public schools,

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Speaker 1: and we did fine, a lot of good conversations, a

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Speaker 1: lot of a lot of pushing together on things, a

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Speaker 1: lot of refining thought. But I will say that was

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Speaker 1: probably one of the better decisions my wife and I

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Speaker 1: made was it turned out very very well for us.

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Speaker 1: But it was because he was that contrarian nature and

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Speaker 1: was pushing against things. I didn't want to be trying

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Speaker 1: to defend the Christian school against my son, which is

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Speaker 1: what I felt like would happen if we'd send him

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Speaker 1: to a private Christian school.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense if I can be so bold.

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Speaker 2: I wonder if there was another layer that you're not mentioning.

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Speaker 2: Why that you know, as a studied biblical scholar who

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Speaker 2: knows what you're talking about. I know when I go

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Speaker 2: to church, and this isn't a knock on church, but

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Speaker 2: you know, a pastor will say something just this past

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Speaker 2: weeks that the Greek says such and such and that

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Speaker 2: means such and such, and I'm just listening, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it's not one of those things that go around and

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Speaker 2: tell everyone pastor said that and that's just garbage, right.

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Speaker 2: But I heard him and I said, yeah, I know

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Speaker 2: the Greek there.

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Speaker 3: And.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you kind of go completely completely non issue.

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Speaker 1: No, it's definitely another layer. I appreciate you bringing that out.

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Speaker 1: I had the same problems. I don't like the the

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Speaker 1: Christian private schools we looked at had very strong stances

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Speaker 1: on things like seven day creationism, They had very strong

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Speaker 1: stances on particular eschatological positions. They had very strong positions

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Speaker 1: on even one of them we looked at on Christians

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Speaker 1: and politics. And so as we talked with some of

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Speaker 1: the private school teachers, I did not get the impression

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Speaker 1: that this was going to create the sort of open

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Speaker 1: environment I thought Judah would drive in. I think there's

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Speaker 1: a way that that could have worked, you know, if

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Speaker 1: there's a I think a classical Christian school would have

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Speaker 1: been much more amenable to what we were looking at,

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Speaker 1: where they're doing more reading and socratic method and talking

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Speaker 1: through texts and those kind of things. I probably would

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Speaker 1: have gravitated more towards that this was more of the

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Speaker 1: private schools that we had available at the time, would

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Speaker 1: have been more classroom instruction based. You listen to the

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Speaker 1: teacher and regurgitate what the teacher is going to say

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Speaker 1: to you. There wasn't a lot of dialogue and back

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Speaker 1: and forth, and to me, I was just kind of

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Speaker 1: sitting there going I'm probably what's going to end up

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Speaker 1: happening is I'm going to end up in the awkward

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Speaker 1: situation of disagreeing with a lot of his teachers and

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Speaker 1: having to try to explain to a second grader why

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Speaker 1: Daddy thinks what he's being taught isn't quite right. By

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Speaker 1: the time he was in eighth grade, I would have

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Speaker 1: felt much more comfortable with that. But as you know,

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Speaker 1: when you're at those younger ages, I always felt like

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Speaker 1: limiting dissonance right between me and the school, right me

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Speaker 1: and what he's being taught, particularly theologically and biblically, was important.

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Speaker 1: Limiting the it's between me and what's being taught in

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Speaker 1: the public school was not as big an issue because

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Speaker 1: he already knew that we were a Christian family and

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Speaker 1: that we were going to disagree with things, so you

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Speaker 1: could just frame it up like that. But I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to nuance with a second grader the

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Speaker 1: finer points of how you should think about, you know,

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Speaker 1: Genesis one one through two three, and what are the

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Speaker 1: different views and how could this work? It's just not

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Speaker 1: something that I felt I was going to be capable

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Speaker 1: pulling off.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, that's the other reason.

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Speaker 1: I just felt like I could do a better job

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Speaker 1: of helping him navigate from against some of what he

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Speaker 1: might get in public school, which he did get some

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Speaker 1: of it. So I felt like I could do a

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Speaker 1: better job of helping him navigate against that versus doing

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Speaker 1: a and a poor job of navigating against what some

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Speaker 1: of what he would have gotten at the Putt Privates

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Speaker 1: Christian schools we happen to be looking at.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for that. I wanted to pull that little

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Speaker 2: bit out because I thought it's actually so much of

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Speaker 2: a bridge. So, even as our sons are different in personality,

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Speaker 2: I think that bridge is a similar bridge. So you

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Speaker 2: mentioned your son is the contrarian and I and you're

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Speaker 2: a bit of a contrary, and I'm a bit of

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Speaker 2: a contrarian. Yeah, that's not so much my son, right,

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Speaker 2: that's not so much my son. That is very much

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Speaker 2: my first daughter. So I'll put her story aside because

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Speaker 2: I think in some ways it would match some of

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Speaker 2: the narrative you've said, because you know, she would have

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Speaker 2: a tendency to be a contrarian, and that can create

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Speaker 2: layers of contrariness that a second grader, a third grader

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Speaker 2: isn't ready yet to understand that they're layers. It's sort

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Speaker 2: of an all or nothing thinking for a kid, and

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Speaker 2: that makes sense. Sometimes it's not for an adult too.

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Speaker 2: But with my son, my older son, he's very he

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Speaker 2: gets very excited. He has a lot of energy for everything.

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Speaker 2: He likes everything. He's energetic to learn about everything. If

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Speaker 2: you give him a little bit, he'll dig in and

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Speaker 2: go further. And it's actually precisely because he's not a

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Speaker 2: contrarian that that concerns me a little bit at times,

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Speaker 2: because it's I learned this, and I decided that was exciting,

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Speaker 2: because everything's exciting, and I jumped into it and went

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Speaker 2: a mile deep in it. And now I've got all

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Speaker 2: this information. And he'll say, did you know this? Did

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Speaker 2: you know that? I'm like, no, I didn't because I

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Speaker 2: never got excited about that and didn't jump him out.

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Speaker 2: But interesting, And I think that's a wonderful quality that

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Speaker 2: is ripe for malformation if all you ever get is

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Speaker 2: a very focused perspective on what the goal ought to

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Speaker 2: be and some of the things that often happen. You know,

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Speaker 2: the curriculum in a private school, just like in a

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Speaker 2: private college, especially Christian college, is often going to be

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Speaker 2: something much more integrated in the parts than you are

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Speaker 2: in a setting where the emphasis is on the greater

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Speaker 2: diversity of thinking on a topic. Right, And as a result,

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Speaker 2: with a personality like my son's, it seems like a

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Speaker 2: mistake to say that the goal here is for you

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Speaker 2: to jump them out deep, especially when I know, again

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Speaker 2: the curse may be of the academic theologian, that there

398
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Speaker 2: are fine points that I know I'm not going to

399
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Speaker 2: agree with, sometimes not insignificant points, whereas I know that

400
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Speaker 2: when he's in a setting where there's a lot more

401
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Speaker 2: scattered of an identity right where it's generally in a

402
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Speaker 2: public school, there might be a greater openness to what's

403
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Speaker 2: new out there than in the private school, where there's

404
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Speaker 2: a greater sense of preserving what's not new against what's new.

405
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Speaker 2: And as a result of this sort of emphasis of

406
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Speaker 2: what's of of bringing in the new, the constant curricular

407
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Speaker 2: revisions and the constant changes of you and how we

408
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Speaker 2: understand education, it provided an opportunity to say to my son,

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Speaker 2: who's already inclined to see a very specific view and

410
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Speaker 2: jump all the way in, that there is variety and

411
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Speaker 2: that it generates conversations. Right. So he comes home and

412
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Speaker 2: he wants to talk about one thing, and I'll say,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's good. I'm intrigued that you're learning about that.

414
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Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit more about that one thing, right,

415
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Speaker 2: And I'm deliberately being vague so as not to close

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Speaker 2: off the conversation, but it provides the opportunity for nuance. Right.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes those one thing's very much overlap with my research,

418
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Speaker 2: and I can say, okay, well, obviously, so my son

419
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Speaker 2: isn't as far along as yours. He's a middle schooler,

420
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Speaker 2: so he's maybe not getting the kind of nuance that

421
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Speaker 2: a college student would get, and you wouldn't expect it

422
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Speaker 2: you and you're hired to get it right. My job

423
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Speaker 2: isn't necessarily to say, let me pretend you're a twenty

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Speaker 2: year old in college, but it is to say, let's

425
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Speaker 2: complicate things a little bit, you know, kind of tactical strikes.

426
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Speaker 2: Maybe a little bit more is going on here than

427
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Speaker 2: what it seems like right in this initial phase, you

428
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 2: need to think there's less going on, so let me

429
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Speaker 2: give you a little bit more. And I've found with

430
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Speaker 2: his personality that that's a much easier thing to do

431
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Speaker 2: when his exposure is broader than it is when it's

432
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Speaker 2: a narrow exposure. And now he becomes something of an

433
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Speaker 2: apologist for a viewpoint. In those moments, it's harder to

434
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Speaker 2: pull him back. And I just think with this personality,

435
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Speaker 2: that's that's just the better, the better framework, the better

436
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 2: place for him. And then with my daughter, who sounds

437
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 2: a lot more like your son, you know, i'd say

438
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 2: ditto to that. Right, she's a contrary in and yeah

439
00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:21,040
Speaker 2: she's going to push. Let her push where there's greater variety,

440
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 2: because now there's an opportunity to speak into that without

441
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 2: having to have again that overly narrow focus.

442
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,440
Speaker 3: That's right, Yeah, I think.

443
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember when I thought to myself, this

444
00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: might actually work, right, And Judah came home one time,

445
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 1: and I can't remember who was what the election was, right,

446
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,439
Speaker 1: but it may have been it may have been, Well,

447
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: it had to be a Democrat, Like they were talking

448
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 1: about these issues, democratic and Republican issues in the school,

449
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 1: and you know, it was definitely skewing Democrat. And so

450
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: he came home and everything I was hearing come out

451
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 1: of his mouth, it was like I was listening to

452
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: a Democratic Party platform.

453
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 3: Right now.

454
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 1: You know me, I'm not an overly political guy, so

455
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: that didn't bother me. And so what I told him

456
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,359
Speaker 1: was though, I said, look at the end of the day,

457
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: if you're saying this because your teacher said it, I'm

458
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: not real happy about that. If you're saying it because

459
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: you've come to it on your own, You've looked at it,

460
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 1: you've thought about it, you've really you're owning this, that's great.

461
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 1: So I said, which one are you doing? Do you

462
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 1: really understand the other side? Do you really understand the

463
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 1: whole issues? Or are you just parroting? I said something

464
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 1: like that, and I remember him just sort of standing

465
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: back and going, I'm just parroting. Never happened again, Never

466
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: happened again, Like he would never come back home, right

467
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: he would.

468
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,199
Speaker 3: He would come back home and he would ask me

469
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 3: then questions.

470
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: But it wasn't like he was giving me regurchitating the

471
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: lecture that he'd got in school. And I think now,

472
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: like as he's because SLEW is a Catholic institution. They

473
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: offer what I would consider to be like modern theology.

474
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: It's not really confessional theology. So someone he's getting he

475
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 1: went there for history opted into theology, which I thought

476
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: was great, But it is a different sort of theology

477
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: than like you or I were exposed to in our education, right,

478
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: non confessional theology.

479
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:26,120
Speaker 3: I don't really have.

480
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 1: To worry about it that much because when he has questions,

481
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: he's going to come home and we can have conversations

482
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: about them. He's not accepting a lot of it, you know,

483
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: he's he's doing well in it, but he's not owned,

484
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: you know, like he's not Okay, great, this is exactly

485
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:40,239
Speaker 1: what it is.

486
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 3: Right.

487
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 1: He's calling his own balls and strikes, and I think

488
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: that that experience in public school really gave him the

489
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: opportunity to go Now, I can call these balls and strikes,

490
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,960
Speaker 1: like this person who's conveying the information to me is

491
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:54,120
Speaker 1: worthy of my respect.

492
00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, I have.

493
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: To own this like it's it's got to be my

494
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: perspective at the end of the day. And so he's

495
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 1: sort of learned, I think, over this time, how to

496
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 1: sort of sift and sort and think for himself. And

497
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: he'll I'm sure he'll make plenty of mistakes, but I'm

498
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: pretty confident in his ability to think through issues. And

499
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 1: I would attribute that to his participation in public school

500
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: as opposed to the Christian private school. Now, again, to

501
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: go back to that disclaimer, it's not because the Christian

502
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: private school wouldn't have been good.

503
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 3: It's that it wouldn't have been right for him.

504
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: I think our daughter, you know, our adoptive daughter, Lutheran

505
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 1: school was perfect for her. It's fantastic, really well structured,

506
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: smaller classes. You know, she came in the other day

507
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: and said she was going to We had mentioned somebody

508
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: was sick, and so she came into my office and said, oh,

509
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 1: I want to pray for those people.

510
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 3: It's kind of perfect for her.

511
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 1: Right Like, I'm glad we got pushed over in that direction,

512
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: even though we might not have considered it as closely

513
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: as we did had the public school been open. I

514
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: think we'll leave her in that private school all the

515
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: way as long as we can. I think it's just

516
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: really fitting for her personality. It provides her the structure

517
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 1: she needs. And you know, she's the one daughter that

518
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: we have who came to us with a history, and

519
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: so I think that we need the extra support to

520
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,200
Speaker 1: kind of help give her that structure and that guidance

521
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: going forward that this school particularly does very very well,

522
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 1: and then a public school won't.

523
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 3: Right.

524
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: We're still in a relatively large area. The schools are bigger,

525
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: they just don't always have the capacity to give that

526
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: sort of guided structure that a smaller Lutheran school will.

527
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: So again, not a I.

528
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: Don't have any sort of philosophical disagreement with Christian private school.

529
00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 1: It's just a question of thinking through with this one kid,

530
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: which one works best?

531
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 3: Yeah?

532
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 2: Right, Well, the word you use was fitting. Yeah, that's

533
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 2: the idea at play. That's the improvisational idea. That's the

534
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 2: idea of wisdom. It's being able to discern the best fit.

535
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: And to discern the best fit is you have to

536
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 2: know the landscape. Right. If you don't know anything about

537
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 2: the schools of either of the kinds of schools, you

538
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: can't really make an informed decision of fit if you

539
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 2: don't know your kid. And this gets to the question

540
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 2: of fatherhood and gets to the issues that we were

541
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:49,479
Speaker 2: discussing in the last episode that are somewhat ambiguous in writing,

542
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 2: but are getting at that fit issue. Fathers don't provoke

543
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: your kids, you know whatever precisely we see that provoking

544
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 2: as you can't understand what that means and what that

545
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 2: looks like without being a father of coming to understand

546
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: what makes your child tick. You know, as a father

547
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 2: of four kids, it's hard to miss that there are

548
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,760
Speaker 2: four different kids, there's similarities. I talk sometimes about how

549
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: I can see patterns of similarities between the first and

550
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: the third and the second and the fourth, and I

551
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: don't really get how that just seems to me like

552
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: it happened to work out that way. But it'd be

553
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 2: a mistake to assume that the first and the third

554
00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: are the same, and the second and the fourth are

555
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: the same. There's some major differences. And if you're not aware,

556
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: how could you begin to know what it means to

557
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: not provoke your child?

558
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 3: Right?

559
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't think that's a weakness in the text,

560
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: that's right. It's a presumption in the text. That's a

561
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: right presumption that whatever it is, you need to be

562
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 2: in tune with it. And when you're in tune with

563
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: your child, you know how far to push, how far

564
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: not to push. I talked last time about being on

565
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,239
Speaker 2: the basketball team, and my coach seemed to understand that

566
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 2: his son wasn't going to receive certain instruction from him,

567
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: but he was more than happy to be pushed by me. Yeah,

568
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: and so he encouraged it. He leaned into that, as

569
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: opposed to another guy in the team that my coach

570
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 2: realized that guy's not responding to your pushing, and so

571
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: he became something of a buffer there to make sure

572
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: I didn't overpush him like that. That's a discernment again

573
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: and fit.

574
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think as I think through that notion

575
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 1: of provoking our children. The reason this came up, this

576
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: whole topic came up with us yesterday, is that after

577
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: the podcast, we were talking a little bit about, you know,

578
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: this sort of co parenting that we end up having

579
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: to do.

580
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 3: I called it co parenting. It's not quite that, but we.

581
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: Have a lot of unlike earlier ages, we're sending our

582
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: kids to places for different things. We've outsourced largely education

583
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 1: to public war private at schools, and so I would

584
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: argue that part of what we need to be thinking about.

585
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: And I don't know that I would have used this

586
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: verse to think through this at that time, but in

587
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: retrospect it makes good sense. Am I sending my son

588
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:21,920
Speaker 1: or daughter to a place that is going to provoke them,

589
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: that is going to exasperate them?

590
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 3: Like?

591
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: Is this what I'm doing? There's a difference the way

592
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: I interact with my kids. I understand. Just like you're saying,

593
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: like you can push that button, right, Like you know

594
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: when you're about to exasperate your kid. But then we

595
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: also have to think through that, given that we are

596
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: sending them to these different places, is this also going

597
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: to exasperate them?

598
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 3: Right?

599
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: We knew early on that. Well, I'll give an example

600
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: of my own life. Like, I didn't like team sports,

601
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,959
Speaker 1: didn't want to have anything to do with them. I

602
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: was more of a loner, like, just leave me to

603
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: my own thing. If my parents had pushed me into

604
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: team sports, I would have been exasperated. I would have

605
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: hated every minute of it. I didn't enjoy it. I

606
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: didn't like the dynamic with the coach and liked the

607
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 1: dynamic with the team. It just wasn't my thing, right,

608
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: So buy me a gym membership and leave me alone, right,

609
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: And that's what ended up happening. So, I mean, like

610
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: they intuitively understood that I needed to step away from

611
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: these things that they would have liked to see me do.

612
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 1: But they were okay with me just being able to

613
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: go to the gym and still get some exercise and

614
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: take care of myself physically. They didn't have that need

615
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: for me to be on a sports team, right, And

616
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: I think that was a wise decision on their part.

617
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: And I think the same as we dealt with our

618
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,800
Speaker 1: kids through high school. For instance, my son really struggled

619
00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 1: in high school, and part of it was just the whole.

620
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: System of it exasperated him.

621
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: Everything about it was frustrating, you know, how early he

622
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: had to get up, why he had to be there

623
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 1: the entire day, the classes he had to take, all

624
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: these different things, like, none of it made sense to him,

625
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: and it was really a challenge for him to get

626
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 1: through high school. He just struggled with it. He pushed

627
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: back against it. He was exasperated. Right now, there wasn't

628
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: a whole lot we could do. We'd try to help

629
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: him manage it. We worked with him through it, but

630
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 1: it was effort on our part. Now that he's in college,

631
00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 1: it's like night and day, it's no problem.

632
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 3: Right.

633
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: That high school experience really exasperated him. And I think

634
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: that's something that we need to think about as we're

635
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: you know, working with our kids. Am I sending them

636
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: somewhere that's going to exasperate them? Because there's only so

637
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: much mental and emotional resources people just have in general, right,

638
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: And so if we're pushing them into something that's just

639
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: going to frustrate them. Why are we doing that. I'm

640
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: not saying shelter your kids and you know, only let

641
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: them do things that they like to do. Right, there

642
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: is a point where you have to challenge them. There

643
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 1: need the friction, they need that, They need that trial,

644
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: right in order to get stronger. So I'm not saying, hey,

645
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: don't ever trigger your kids or push them into challenging situations.

646
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 1: But what I am saying is there's a limit to that.

647
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 3: Right.

648
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: I don't take my daughters like to lift with me.

649
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: I would never put three hundred pounds on the bench

650
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: press and have them lay underneath it and.

651
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 3: Go, okay, lift this up like that's crazy town. Right.

652
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: There's a progressive overload that you have to give them

653
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 1: that's commensurate with their weight and strength. And that's really

654
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 1: what we're kind of talking about here, like presenting with

655
00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: those challenges, allowing those challenges to build the resilience of

656
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,719
Speaker 1: your children as opposed to putting them somewhere where they're

657
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: just going to get crushed.

658
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you also wouldn't do that to me, because

659
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 2: you know I couldn't handle that either.

660
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 4: There's a lot of people I wouldn't throw other drink

661
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 4: about Yeah, I think maybe one more angle here is

662
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 4: probably helpful too, because I think about, yes, the.

663
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 2: Issue provoking, Yes, the issue of exasperating. But part of

664
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: that understanding and knowing is to realize what is that

665
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 2: point of actual exasperation and what is that point that

666
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 2: maybe he isn't quite there but they might think so,

667
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: you know, like sometimes you do have to push a

668
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 2: little bit beyond what the child thinks, and that's part

669
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 2: of the knowing. I think about. My youngest is a

670
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 2: first grader, and he was doing basic math and he

671
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 2: got a few things wrong. And when I would point

672
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: out the few things he got wrong for his worksheets

673
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 2: that he had to bring home, he started to tense

674
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: up and he started to act like he was under attack. Right,

675
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 2: it really fun like a textbook fight or flight moment.

676
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 2: And I saw this and I thought, this is a

677
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 2: little bit disproportionate, Like this is learning, right, You miss

678
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: some things, you get corrected, you realize what you needed

679
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,959
Speaker 2: correcting on, and then you fix it. But you don't

680
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 2: say it to a first grader that way. So I

681
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: finally looked at him and I said, it seems like

682
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:26,719
Speaker 2: you're getting worked up here, and I started to ask

683
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 2: him in basic ways, what is it that's concerning you?

684
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,359
Speaker 2: What's the matter? And he said he wasn't really sure.

685
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 2: And that's about what I expected from a first grader,

686
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,359
Speaker 2: right that he's not sure why he's starting to get

687
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 2: worked up. And I said, it seems like you think

688
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 2: something's going to happen to you if you get something wrong.

689
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 2: Does that sound right? And he said yeah, he said,

690
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: what do you think it is it's going to happen

691
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 2: to you. I don't know that's a good answer, because

692
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 2: you don't nothing is going to happen to you a

693
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: reason to think something's gonna happen to you, But you

694
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 2: feel that, So let's work with that right now. And

695
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 2: I spent a few minutes sitting there talking him through

696
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,479
Speaker 2: the fact that, Okay, you did get something wrong right here,

697
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: and I did tell you you got it wrong, but

698
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 2: then what And he started to realize, actually, yeah, then

699
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 2: nothing right. You just told me so that I could

700
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 2: get it right, and then we did it again. Maybe

701
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: maybe the thing that happened was he had to spend

702
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 2: a little bit longer on it than he wanted to. Yeah,

703
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 2: but the satisfaction of oh, I get it now and

704
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: getting it right way outweighed the sense of some mysterious

705
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: thing that was going to happen to him. And what

706
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: was remarkable to me, I tell the story because what

707
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 2: was remarkable to me was that in the subsequent quite

708
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 2: literally months at this point from that event, I've never

709
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: once seen him get exasperated and being corrected. Yeah, So

710
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,239
Speaker 2: it really was a moment of he wasn't even sure why.

711
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 2: There was just some hidden anxiety, fear wherever it came from.

712
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,640
Speaker 2: Perhaps it was just sort of just something in his

713
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,600
Speaker 2: personality that once he was able to get on top

714
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 2: of it, immediately became a non issue. Now in every moment,

715
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,439
Speaker 2: maybe it's not immediate in this case happened to Ben.

716
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 2: But I think the instructive angle that I want to

717
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 2: bring in here is that part of that improvisation, probably

718
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:30,719
Speaker 2: that part of that fit, part of that wisdom dynamic,

719
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 2: is just simply recognizing that sometimes the child does need

720
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: to be pushed. Yes, pushing is not the same as exasperating, right, Yeah,

721
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: And in that moment, that's part of again knowing your

722
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 2: child to recognize, oh, this is actually a moment where

723
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 2: I can push you. Yeah, and it's okay.

724
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know it and maybe, well, we're getting we're

725
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: getting toward the end here, let me give this story

726
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: is sort of a to give a reinforcement to that.

727
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:09,239
Speaker 1: So I think working with clients was really helpful to

728
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:15,440
Speaker 1: me when I started parenting. The difference between clients and parents,

729
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 1: like clients and children, is that clients can opt not

730
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: to come back.

731
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 3: Right.

732
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: So, when I was a personal trainer, if I pushed

733
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 1: a client too hard, push them well beyond their limits,

734
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: push them beyond their comfort.

735
00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 3: Right, and.

736
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 1: Trip that wire where it's like I pushed them way

737
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: too far, they just wouldn't come back right.

738
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 3: Just that's what happened.

739
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: And so you're constantly figuring out the line where Nope,

740
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 1: I can make them do another three reps. I can

741
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 1: make them do another whole set, I can make them

742
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: do more weight, I can make them do more exercises.

743
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 1: I can have them do this exercise they hate, right,

744
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: because they really need to like learning. When you can

745
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: put those things in and at what point in the

746
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 1: relationship it's appropriate to do, that became sort of an

747
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 1: art form, right. So here's the story. I used to

748
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 1: train this gentleman. He would always bring his chihuahua in

749
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: with him Bruno. He brought Bruno in and I worked

750
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: at Wow Bruno to Chiuaha. I worked in this like

751
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 1: little boutique like upscale personal training studios. Only one on

752
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: one training is me and maybe three or four other

753
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 1: trainers working at the same time, and so that's the context.

754
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: So it was kind of froofy, but he brought his

755
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: Chiuah would be running around and this gentleman would be

756
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: very upfront, like he didn't want to sweat. He was

757
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,479
Speaker 1: going to work after he didn't want to. He didn't

758
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: want to have to cool off, so he didn't want

759
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: to sweat. He just wanted to get a workout in

760
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: and it goes way and I was like, okay, that's fine.

761
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: So there would be days where he'd come in he'dn't

762
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: want to work out for like fifteen twenty minutes and

763
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: it was supposed to be an hour session and it

764
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: might be used to have drive my boss nuts.

765
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,319
Speaker 3: He'd be like, what are you doing with this guy?

766
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: And I'm like, it's a long game, right, That's all

767
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: I got with this guy is a long game, right,

768
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 1: So I've got to get to the point where he

769
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: trusts me enough that he's not doing this every day.

770
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: He's maybe doing it once during the week, right, Bruno

771
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,399
Speaker 1: is always going to be running around and that's fine, right,

772
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 1: But maybe I can get him to do two hour

773
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: long sessions a week and then one fifteen minute session

774
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: right where he's just he's done, like he can't handle

775
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,319
Speaker 1: it anymore. And that's eventually what it came to. I mean,

776
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: he was with me for four years, five years when

777
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 1: I was training. I worked with him that long, and

778
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: toward the end of our training together like he'd done well,

779
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: he'd got in good results, and I could push him

780
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 1: a little harder. I could push him a little harder,

781
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:46,279
Speaker 1: you know. Second year, I could push him a little

782
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: harder than I could push him a little harder the

783
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: third year. I could push him a little harder the

784
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 1: fourth year. But it was a long game, and I

785
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: think that there's something in that that helped me understand

786
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: how to work with my kids, even though my kids

787
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 1: couldn't leave right out a lot of trouble. I think

788
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 1: you're being becoming an emancipated minor. Is it difficult? But

789
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,640
Speaker 1: it did give me this sense of look, I've got

790
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,719
Speaker 1: a long time here, I've got I don't have to

791
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: solve this problem right now in this moment. What I

792
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,959
Speaker 1: need to do is sort of start shaving off rough

793
00:44:17,040 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 1: edges a little by little by little. And it's it's

794
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 1: not an immediate problem, right, It's not you know, your

795
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: kid's about to touch the hot stove.

796
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 3: I have to pull the hand away, right.

797
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: It's something that I can work on this tendency over

798
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 1: time and get them to the point where they trust

799
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 1: me enough that I can finally just knock the rough

800
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:40,480
Speaker 1: edge off completely. And so I think there is something

801
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: to be said for looking at these things longer term

802
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: and understanding that as a parent, you're not going to

803
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: quote unquote fix your kid in any given moment necessarily,

804
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: but that part of the job is to build sufficient

805
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 1: trust that you're with them and forming them and walking

806
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: with them through the long term. Having a great relationship

807
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: with your kids. And again, I know mine are at

808
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: further along than yours, but like when my son can

809
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: come home, we can have conversations about history and theology

810
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 1: and different books and stuff he's studying at twenty, I'm

811
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: really happy with that. You know that he trusts me

812
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: enough to do that. He's got a great relationship with

813
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 1: his mom my, seventeen year old twin daughters. Which that's

814
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 1: another fascinating talk about improving with twin daughters and not

815
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 1: getting Yeah, figuring out the differences between them is fun,

816
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:44,640
Speaker 1: I'll say that. But you know, having them have good

817
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 1: relationship with me and wanting to come to me with

818
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: stuff is great. And so I think there is a

819
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: long game that we play as dads, and it's not

820
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: just the Hey, it has to end right now, you

821
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 1: can ever do that again. There are moments for that,

822
00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 1: but there's also a sense in which we need to

823
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: play the long game here because they're going to need

824
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: us well beyond when they think they'll need us, and

825
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: we need to be a place and a person that

826
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,280
Speaker 1: they can come to as they meet lights challenges because

827
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: everybody needs. Everybody needs some help every once in a while.

828
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:20,000
Speaker 3: So I'll leave it there.

829
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. The idea that comes to my mind

830
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: as you say all that is I think can sum

831
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 2: it up with there's an attentiveness that being a father

832
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 2: far from going in with a prepackaged set of expectations

833
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: and values. Maybe maybe le's the values, but expectations. A

834
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 2: father has to be attentive, and a mother as well

835
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:50,919
Speaker 2: has to be attentive, right, Yes, and that means understanding.

836
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: That means recognizing that you receive yourself from those kids

837
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 2: in the sense that we are not fathers without those kids.

838
00:46:59,239 --> 00:46:59,479
Speaker 3: Right.

839
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: Our very identities are tied into who they are. But

840
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean therefore duplicating ourselves in them, right, It

841
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 2: would be a mistake to say, my job here is

842
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 2: to take the best of what I would have wanted,

843
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 2: and that's what you've got to be. It's the attentiveness

844
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 2: of I received myself from you, and in that process,

845
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 2: I receive who you are, and I work within those

846
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 2: contexts to help you become, according to your talents and

847
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 2: your gifts and your personality, a person who will grow

848
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 2: up to be a wise person walking before the Lord.

849
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

850
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 1: And I think uniquely, as Christian fathers, we have the

851
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: privilege of helping our kids learn to be the image

852
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: of God that God uniquely made them to be. And

853
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: that's a really crucial task. And so yeah, I think

854
00:47:58,360 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: it's just fun.

855
00:47:59,120 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 3: Man.

856
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 1: I know, we could talk about this like it's a

857
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: somber event, and it is serious, right, but it's also just.

858
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:06,359
Speaker 3: A lot of fun being a dad.

859
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I've dealt with a lot of serious issues,

860
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, I enjoy it.

861
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 3: There.

862
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: You know, kids are fun, especially now that they're teenagers.

863
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 1: I'm not a great like my five year old kind

864
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: of drives me a little nuts. I'm man enough to

865
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: admit that. But even her, it's like, it is still fun.

866
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 3: It's just.

867
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: When they get to a certain age, I really like

868
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: my personality start to kick in.

869
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 3: I really enjoy being with them.

870
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: And so my wife and I always joke, She's like,

871
00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 1: you're you're not the best pre K through elementary school dad,

872
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:44,080
Speaker 1: but you're an amazing teenage dad. You know so, But

873
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: it is a lot of fun. So I guess my

874
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: encouragement to Christian dad's out there would be number one.

875
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:56,440
Speaker 1: You know, form your own character. Do what you need

876
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: to do to form your own character, and then don't

877
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: be so concerned about every little thing that your kid does.

878
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: Play that long game really developed. Trust be the person

879
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 1: in their lives who can direct them back to the

880
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: Lord when they need it. But yeah, remember that it's

881
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: supposed to be an enjoyable experience and that you're forming

882
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:27,760
Speaker 1: Little Jesus Is in your own house. So anyway, good stuff, man.

883
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 1: We'll call it there. We're well over time, but I

884
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 1: think that's appropriate. When we're talking about our kids, we

885
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 1: probably should go over time, so but we'll call it there.

886
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,439
Speaker 1: So thanks Man for this conversation. This was helpful and good,

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00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody for listening. We'll catch you on

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00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian Take Care. I just

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00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the team at

890
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking

891
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,479
Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to life audio dot com,

892
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.

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00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,239
Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.