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Speaker 1: Coming up, I'll say a word about the strange death

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Speaker 1: and murder of Hollywood actor Rob Reiner. I'm going to

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Speaker 1: examine some bombshell new information about ilhan Omar and the

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Speaker 1: allegation she married her brother to subvert the immigration laws.

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Speaker 1: And I'm going to ask how Western societies can deal

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Speaker 1: with Islamic terrorism in the wake up the Bondi Beach

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Speaker 1: attack in Australia. Hey, if you're watching on YouTube ex Rumble,

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Speaker 1: listening on Apple or Spotify, please subscribe to the channel.

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Speaker 1: I'd appreciate it. This is the SUSA podcast.

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Speaker 2: America needs this voice. The times are crazy in a

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Speaker 2: time of confusion, division and lies. We need a brave

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Speaker 2: voice of reason, understanding and truth. This is the SUZA Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I just saw an hour or two ago the tragic

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Speaker 1: news of Rob Reiner aka Meathead, the famous actor and later,

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Speaker 1: by the way director. I first encountered Reiner in All

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Speaker 1: in the Family. Such a classic role and actually a

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Speaker 1: role in which you had to He was supposed to

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Speaker 1: be kind of the hero I think of that sitcom

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Speaker 1: Archie Bunker was kind of like the villain, or at

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Speaker 1: least the Archie Bunker was like the idiot, and Rob

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Speaker 1: Reiner was supposed to be the sophisticated guy, although part

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Speaker 1: of what made that show so ingenious and watchable is

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Speaker 1: and I don't even know if this was Norman Lear's intention.

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Speaker 1: Very often Archie Bunker came out as a smart guy

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Speaker 1: or the witty guy, and Rob Reiner came up as

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Speaker 1: a kind of over educated buffoon. But he went on

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Speaker 1: to a very illustrious career. And it turned out that

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Speaker 1: this guy was not only a really good actor, but

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Speaker 1: he was also a really good director. But he was

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Speaker 1: also a major unrepentant leftist, and tragically he and his

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Speaker 1: wife were killed killed in what initially appeared to be

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Speaker 1: kind of some sort of a home invasion. Ryner and

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Speaker 1: his wife found their throat slashed in their posh Hollywood home.

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Speaker 1: And when Debbie and I heard about this last night

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Speaker 1: we were talking about it, we were like, well, what

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Speaker 1: kind of a Hollywood home did he live in? Because

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Speaker 1: generally big name actors, if you've ever been to La

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Speaker 1: and Hollywood, they lived behind these massive walls and tall gates,

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Speaker 1: and they often have private security inside the inside those gates,

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Speaker 1: and there's just no way to be able to get

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you can't even see their house. How easy can

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Speaker 1: it be to do a home invasion one of those

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Speaker 1: kinds of Hollywood mansions. Not easy at all. And so

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Speaker 1: DeBie and I like, something else seems to be going

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Speaker 1: on here, And sure enough, today their own Rob Reiner's

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Speaker 1: son is arrested. He's apparently, he was apparently a very

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Speaker 1: dubious character. He was homeless for a while. He's also

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Speaker 1: a drug addict, and evidently, according to reports apparently from

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Speaker 1: another family member, they got into a shouting match of

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Speaker 1: some sort of massive argument, probably over drugs, maybe over money,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, and in a rage, the son whips

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Speaker 1: out the knife or takes a knife from the home,

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Speaker 1: we don't know yet, and kills his own parents. Wow.

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Speaker 1: And now DeBie and I were discussing just a few

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Speaker 1: moments ago whether this is planned or not, Because think

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Speaker 1: about it, you can say, oh, yeah, I lost my head.

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Speaker 1: It was the middle of an argument. Well, where'd the

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Speaker 1: knife come from? Did you bring it with you? If so,

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Speaker 1: you obviously may have had some malign and tension when

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Speaker 1: you got there. It's not just a matter that you

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Speaker 1: flew off the handle. Now, obviously, if you got into

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Speaker 1: a rage and ran and grabbed one of the kitchen

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Speaker 1: knives that it could be more impulsive. We don't know,

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Speaker 1: but we were commenting about the sheer horror of people

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Speaker 1: who murder their own parents, and how that isn't a

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Speaker 1: level of evil that's really different even from you know,

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Speaker 1: you're a mafia guy and you carry out a hit,

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Speaker 1: or you go rob a grocery store and you end

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Speaker 1: up shooting the clerk. Your goal there is to grab

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Speaker 1: the stuff, and the clerk is in the way, and

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Speaker 1: the clerk is nothing to you, at least you're indifferent

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Speaker 1: to the clerk. But to murder people who have raised

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Speaker 1: you and taken care of you, and you were helpless

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Speaker 1: and when you were a child, it's quite you know,

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Speaker 1: unconscionable is perhaps the right word here, because it's difficult

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Speaker 1: for the conscience to grasp that kind of thing. I

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Speaker 1: also want to point out that in contrast with Charlie Kirk,

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Speaker 1: when Charlie Kirk died and you had all these liberals cheering,

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Speaker 1: and I remember the one guy, you know, me singing

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Speaker 1: the song we got Charlie in the neck, in the neck,

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Speaker 1: we got Charlie in the neck. And that's emblematic of

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Speaker 1: how these the jubilation that attended Charlie's death. I was

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Speaker 1: looking to see if we would see any of that.

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Speaker 1: But I've seen none of it. I mean literally zero.

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying none of it exists because I'm incapable

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Speaker 1: of surfing the entire web by myself, but I haven't

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Speaker 1: seen it. Let's put it that way, which tells me

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Speaker 1: that there's that conservatives are responding quite differently to this

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Speaker 1: than liberals did to Charlie Kirk. Now let's talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about ilhan Omar. I saw that ilhan Omar

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Speaker 1: was on television firing back at reports including an instant

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Speaker 1: not an insinuation, an outright statement by Trump that she

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Speaker 1: married her own brother. And ilhan Omar claims that this

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Speaker 1: is obviously wrong and ignorant. I'm going to quote her. Now,

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Speaker 1: everybody knows I came to the United States at the

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Speaker 1: age of twelve, gained my citizenship at the age of seventeen.

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Speaker 1: She goes on to say, and now I'm elected to Congress.

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Speaker 1: And so she goes, this is pure ignorance, and she says, quote,

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Speaker 1: it's a national embarrassment that he continues to say those

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Speaker 1: kinds of things. Now, ilhan Omar's team has pointed out

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Speaker 1: she came as a refugee, she became a naturalized citizen

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Speaker 1: as a teen. She divorced her husband, Ahmed Elmi in

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Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, and she claims that this guy is not

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Speaker 1: her brother. Apparently, this Elmy guy now lives, they claim,

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Speaker 1: at least in South Africa. So ilan Omar is basically saying,

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Speaker 1: not even that she didn't violate the immigration laws, but

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Speaker 1: she couldn't have because hey, she got a citizenship way

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Speaker 1: before that, and she married this guy Elmy. But he's

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Speaker 1: not She's saying he's not her brother. Now, I now

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Speaker 1: turned to a detailed article in The Free Beacon published

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Speaker 1: by a lawyer and a very credible guy, Scott Johnson,

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Speaker 1: who has been covering this issue for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and so, by the way, have many others. I want

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Speaker 1: to get into what Scott Johnson is talking about here,

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Speaker 1: and that is that genetic testing evidently shows that.

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Speaker 3: There is a reportedly is a very close connection genetic

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Speaker 3: connection between ilhan Omar and this guy Elmi.

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Speaker 1: They are in fact, quite likely, if not definitively brother

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Speaker 1: and sister. That actually does not seem to be at

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Speaker 1: issue here. Apparently, what happened is that the family, the

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Speaker 1: Omar family, had applied for asylum in America, and part

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Speaker 1: of the family came here, and part of the family

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Speaker 1: went to Great Britain, including this guy, Ahmed Nur Elmi,

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Speaker 1: so Elmi the brother, the alleged brother, goes to Great Britain,

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Speaker 1: and ilhan Omar comes here. Now, evidently what's going on

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Speaker 1: here is that ilhan Omar is married to another guy,

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Speaker 1: Ahmed Hersy. He's the father of her children, and then

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Speaker 1: she Mary is her brother. She divorces that guy and

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Speaker 1: marries Elm in two thousand and nine. Now, the point here,

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Speaker 1: and I understand it, this is a little bit of

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Speaker 1: a labyrinth, but it's I understand this is the key point.

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Speaker 1: The point is that she doesn't do it to get

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Speaker 1: citizenship for her. She does it for him. In other words,

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Speaker 1: she's looking for a way to get around the immigration

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Speaker 1: laws and get Elm, the other guy, into the country

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Speaker 1: and establish his legal status. Now, interestingly, when you look

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Speaker 1: at ilhan Omar's website, there's no mention of this Elmy guy.

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Speaker 1: They refer to the other guy, the first guy, and

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Speaker 1: Elm has just basically disappeared. And Scott Johnson also reports

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Speaker 1: that even her marriage to the other guy, which is

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Speaker 1: Ahmed Hersy. They applied for a marriage license, but it

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Speaker 1: doesn't sound like they ever followed up with a legal marriage.

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Speaker 1: So all of this is sort of dubious. And now

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Speaker 1: here's the point. The point is that there's quite clearly

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Speaker 1: an effort here to subvert the immigration laws, and it's

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Speaker 1: done so blatantly that it's done in the secure knowledge

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Speaker 1: that nothing can be done about it, and if anyone

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Speaker 1: looks into it, they're racist. A number of journalists over

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Speaker 1: the years have tried to explore this, by the way,

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Speaker 1: not just conservatives, even people with the Minneapolis Star Tribune,

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Speaker 1: the local newspapers in the area have tried to send

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Speaker 1: journalists to find out about this. They're always led up

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Speaker 1: and down the track and round and round, and it

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Speaker 1: gets nowhere, and then they're accused of being racist, and

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Speaker 1: then they back off and the whole topic drops. So

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Speaker 1: everything is left with a kind of a shrugging of

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Speaker 1: the shoulders. And this look like it, but we don't

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Speaker 1: really know, and I don't understand. Look, if this was

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Speaker 1: if this was a conservative, let alone a high profile conservative,

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Speaker 1: the Biden Justice Department would be all over it. There

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Speaker 1: would be a special counsel. They'd be investigating all the

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Speaker 1: facts you would because these are major crimes being committed here.

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Speaker 1: Defrauding the immigration laws, doing it deliberately, not to mention

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Speaker 1: incests is not legal in this country. So there's all

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Speaker 1: kinds of ways that you could get at this, which

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Speaker 1: would create massive legal exposure, criminal exposure potentially, and certainly

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Speaker 1: public exposure, which is to say, major embarrassment. And yet

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Speaker 1: as conservative, somehow this never really gets pursued. I keep

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Speaker 1: seeing insinuations from these guys, the Oversight Committee, insinuations from

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Speaker 1: the Justice Department, but not the kind of ruthless, systematic

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Speaker 1: investigation that simply asks A. Is ilhan Omar's legality in

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Speaker 1: this country firmly established? B? Did she in fact marry

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Speaker 1: her brother? Yes or no? C Did that marriage subvert

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Speaker 1: the immigration laws? Was that a marriage created to get

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Speaker 1: around the immigration laws and defraud the US government? And

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Speaker 1: D why isn't she being arrested. Why isn't there a

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Speaker 1: bid to arrest the other guy, even if he's not

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Speaker 1: living in the country right now? And why isn't there

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Speaker 1: a process already underway to get this woman removed from Congress?

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Speaker 1: So I think these are the things that need to

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Speaker 1: happen in order to put our minds to rest on

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Speaker 1: this issue. Too many of these kinds of issues are raised,

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Speaker 1: they kind of hang out there now. Again, conversely, if

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Speaker 1: there is nothing to them, then we need to know

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Speaker 1: that also. Let's say it could be that somehow he

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Speaker 1: is perhaps a relative but not her brother. Let's say,

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Speaker 1: for example, that he is a brother, and this is

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Speaker 1: some extremely perverse marriage, but it had nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with the immigration laws. That guy's status had been independently established,

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Speaker 1: let's say, hypothetically before that, so he didn't need to

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Speaker 1: marry her to get his legal status. He got his

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Speaker 1: legal status some other way. In that case, you have

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Speaker 1: a sordid, incestuous marriage for whatever reason, but it's not

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Speaker 1: an effort to get around the immigration laws. All of

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Speaker 1: these I'm laying out because they are possibilities, and if

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Speaker 1: we're wrong about it, we need to know that also.

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Speaker 1: But this is where as conservatives, as Republicans, we need

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Speaker 1: to up the ante, we need to up our game.

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Speaker 1: We need to get to the bottom of the matter,

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Speaker 1: and that's how you put public concern one way or

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Speaker 1: the other to rest. There's a powerful new film coming

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Speaker 1: anniversary of Our Nations founding. Become an early supporter by

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Speaker 1: join me and New York Times bestselling author Jonathan Kahn

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Speaker 1: for the Dragon's Prophecy Tour December seventh through sixteen, twenty

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Speaker 1: will open up the scriptures in the very places you've

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Speaker 1: travel dot com slash. Denesh gets some information about the

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Speaker 1: Dragon's prophecy tour. Today, we have seen really just in

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Speaker 1: the last twenty four to forty eight hours, two terror attacks,

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Speaker 1: one a bigger one in Australia. This is the Bondiebeach

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Speaker 1: terrorist attack, and the other one a mass shooting at

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Speaker 1: Brown University, where the facts are at least to this date,

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Speaker 1: a little more unclear. I'll start by talking a little

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Speaker 1: bit about the Brown case, because some people thought, and

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Speaker 1: particularly on the heels of the bondibeach attack, this was

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Speaker 1: going to be like an Islamic guy, and there was

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Speaker 1: even a report that someone shouted a lot huakbar. But

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Speaker 1: it turns out it's not an Islamic guy. It's a

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Speaker 1: white guy. And from what I have seen, which is

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Speaker 1: very scattershot, this is a guy who appears to be,

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Speaker 1: even though a military background, on the left. This appears

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Speaker 1: to be a guy who and it makes sense, doesn't

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Speaker 1: it that he would be on the left because he's

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Speaker 1: targeting or he seems to be targeting a Jewish course.

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Speaker 1: You have a professor of Jewish studies who is teaching

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Speaker 1: a class on essentially economic history and the Jews, and

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Speaker 1: that's where the attack takes place. So it seems reasonable

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Speaker 1: to surmise at this very early stage that there's a

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Speaker 1: Palestinian kind of a free Palestine type of connection. I

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Speaker 1: do see that a vice president of College Republicans at

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Speaker 1: Brown is one of the one of the students who

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Speaker 1: was killed in the attack, and some are speculating, well,

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Speaker 1: it was she targeted. Was this an attack against right wingers?

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Speaker 1: I don't think that that's likely or makes a lot

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Speaker 1: of sense, because a if you wanted to target right wingers,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to go to Brown University, where right

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Speaker 1: wingers exist but are very scarce. You'd rather go to

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Speaker 1: Hillsdale College or Liberty University. That I mean, you go

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Speaker 1: the places where you're likely to find right wingers. It's

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Speaker 1: it seems more likely that this is a ideological perhaps yes,

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Speaker 1: but if ideological directed against Jews or directed against Israel.

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Speaker 1: We'll get more facts as those come out. But when

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Speaker 1: we turn to Bondi Beach, we know fully what the

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Speaker 1: motives are because you the attackers have been identified. It's

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Speaker 1: a father and son. The father was killed, the son

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Speaker 1: has been captured, and these were two guys up on

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Speaker 1: a sort of ramp or bridge, and they were firing

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Speaker 1: and reloading against people on the beach amazingly one of

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Speaker 1: the attackers. I'm assuming the sun, but I'm not positive.

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Speaker 1: I think the sun was taken down by another guy

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Speaker 1: who jumped on the attacker. And that guy was initially

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Speaker 1: identified as a Muslim, and there were a lot of

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Speaker 1: people saying, well, see this shows you there are good

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Speaker 1: Muslims and bad Muslims. And the guy had a Muslim name,

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Speaker 1: but it's not being reported that he is not a

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Speaker 1: Muslim at all. He is in fact an Eastern right Christian.

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Speaker 1: And so that's interesting because that would show you that

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Speaker 1: this was maybe someone of Arab descent, but a Christian Arab,

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Speaker 1: apparently a shopkeeper of some sort. And this is the

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Speaker 1: guy who did the intervention. This is in fact a

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Speaker 1: hero because he put himself in danger. Apparently he himself

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Speaker 1: was injured and is now in the hospital but expected

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Speaker 1: to survive. Now, when I think of Australia, and I

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Speaker 1: think about the fact that these guys, as father and son,

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Speaker 1: were let in to Australia, they were given sanctuary, they

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Speaker 1: were they're in the country legally. This is not a

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Speaker 1: case where these are illegals who sneak into the country.

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Speaker 1: It's not that this is like a Biden operation where

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Speaker 1: the borders of porous and people just kind of came through. No,

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Speaker 1: they've been let in. And think about how just was

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Speaker 1: it a couple of years ago Novak Djokovic was denied

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Speaker 1: entry to Australia. Why because well he didn't take his

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Speaker 1: COVID shot. So Djokovic, No, these guys, the shooters, Yes,

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Speaker 1: this is Australia. And in fact, I would say this

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Speaker 1: is the West. This is the absolute blindness. And it's

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Speaker 1: not entirely blind because the Left is doing this deliberately.

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Speaker 1: They're doing it because they actually agree with the radical

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Speaker 1: Muslims that Western civilization needs to be subverted and undermined.

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Speaker 1: This is what they've been teaching in their classrooms. This

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Speaker 1: is what they promulgate through the media. This is the

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Speaker 1: actual ideology of the left that the white man's civilization

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Speaker 1: is evil. It has polluted the world. It needs to

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Speaker 1: be curtailed, It needs to be pulled down a notch,

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Speaker 1: It needs to be undermined from within. We need a

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Speaker 1: kind of recolonization to undo the effects of the original colonization.

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Speaker 1: Although this is now very familiar most of us, many

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Speaker 1: of us have gone through college listening to this kind

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Speaker 1: of rhetoric, and notice that this is pretty much in

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Speaker 1: sync with what the radical Muslims say. And so we

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Speaker 1: see here even in Australia, how the Red Green Alliance,

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Speaker 1: the alliance in other words, what I'm saying, between Radical

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Speaker 1: Islam and the Albanese regime in Australia has kind of

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Speaker 1: come together to produce this kind of atrocious result. And

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Speaker 1: you know this because I just saw all Bonanzi talking

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Speaker 1: in an interview and he's like, well, we have to

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Speaker 1: be careful about these threats that were coming from different directions,

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Speaker 1: including right wing extremism. So he doesn't say one word,

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Speaker 1: at least not in this statement about Radical Islam. Instead,

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Speaker 1: he deflects to right wing extremism, as if right wing

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Speaker 1: extremism had anything to do with the Bondi Beach attacks.

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Speaker 1: So the left even now protects their shooters, they protect

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Speaker 1: their radical allies. The Red Green Alliance needs people like this,

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Speaker 1: like the shooters in the country, and so imports them,

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Speaker 1: brings people like that. I'm not saying that they approve

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Speaker 1: of the results of this particular action. I'm simply saying

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Speaker 1: that there's a political alliance between radical Islam which has

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Speaker 1: a violent and jihadi element to it undeniably, and the

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Speaker 1: political aspirations of the left, by the way, not just

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Speaker 1: in Australia, not just in Canada, not just in Europe,

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Speaker 2: Dnesh is the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians, the

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Speaker 2: revival of an ancient conflict recorded in the Bible.

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Speaker 1: The nation of Israel is a resurrected nation.

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Speaker 4: What if there was going to be a resurrection of

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Speaker 4: another people, an enemy people of Israel?

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Speaker 1: Guys, I'm delighted to welcome to the podcast. Mary Thurreau.

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Speaker 1: She's chairman and CEO of the Independent Institute by the Way,

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Speaker 1: an institution with which I've had a pretty long connection.

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Speaker 1: I've done I've done events in California with the Institute.

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Speaker 1: Mary and I have crossed pats over the years. By

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Speaker 1: the way, her articles have appeared everywhere Forbes, San Francisco Chronicle,

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Speaker 1: San Francisco Examiner, and she is the editor of a

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Speaker 1: new book. This is a topic we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about beyond homeless good intentions, bad outcomes, transformative solutions. The website,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is just Independent dot org. That's the

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Speaker 1: website for the institute. Mary. Good to see you again,

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Speaker 1: if only remotely. Thanks for joining me. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: Let me ask you about the problem of the homeless,

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Speaker 5: because I remember first hearing about this going way back

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Speaker 5: in the Reagan years, you know, and homelessness was.

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Speaker 1: A big problem. And then I noticed that when after

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Speaker 1: Reagan left office and Clinton came in in nineteen ninety two,

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Speaker 1: no more media talk about homelessness. Suddenly the topic appeared

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Speaker 1: to vanish. And in other words, it gave me the

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Speaker 1: idea it was being used as a political cudgel against Reagan.

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Speaker 1: And I've noticed over the years that the topic seems

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Speaker 1: to come back, but the problem itself doesn't seem to

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Speaker 1: go away. Why is that? What's going on here? And

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Speaker 1: for those of us who are not, like really close

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Speaker 1: to it, what is the nub of the issue.

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Speaker 6: Thank you to nas I really appreciate your having me here. Yes,

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Speaker 6: homelessness has been exploding in the twenty first century especially,

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Speaker 6: and in the last ten or fifteen years it's just

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Speaker 6: gotten completely out of control. Basically, people experiencing homelessness have

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Speaker 6: a lot of potential, and government policies will never help

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Speaker 6: them realize the potential. Government policies as they are currently

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Speaker 6: seek to make them permanent wards of the state or

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Speaker 6: leave them in the streets. And it's really a tragedy,

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Speaker 6: and it's just getting worse every day.

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Speaker 1: So Mary, let's go through how this happens. I mean,

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Speaker 1: how does someone become homeless? Right? Someone? Because we hear

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Speaker 1: that many of these people are their addicts or their alcoholics,

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Speaker 1: and the fair proportion of them are just nuts. And

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Speaker 1: yet you said a moment ago, which I think is

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Speaker 1: very interesting, that you know that some of them, or

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Speaker 1: maybe many of them, have potential and could in fact

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Speaker 1: be living productive lives. And so which is it? Who

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Speaker 1: are these people? And how do they get to be

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Speaker 1: where they are?

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Speaker 6: I think almost all of them have potential to live

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Speaker 6: full lives. How they get there in the first place

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Speaker 6: is very unique. I mean, it's a highly individualized problem.

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Speaker 6: I've talked to countless people experiencing homelessness, and a lot

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Speaker 6: of it is just terrible childhoods. And I have learned

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Speaker 6: there before the grace of God, go I. If I'd

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Speaker 6: had a childhood like that, I'd probably be in the

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Speaker 6: streets self medicating as well. Others have just had maybe

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Speaker 6: hospitalization as an adult, either get addicted to painkillers or

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Speaker 6: when they're released they don't have any place to go.

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Speaker 6: There's economic problems. There's a lot of problem. Yes, the

426
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 6: expense of housing, which has been driven by garment policies,

427
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 6: has been a part. Large part of it, the destruction

428
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 6: of cheap places for people to live in the name

429
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 6: of a racing blight. So just a whole slew of

430
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 6: things contribute to it. There is a lot of addiction

431
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 6: because even though people who will become homeless for a

432
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 6: great many different reasons, once you're living in the streets,

433
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 6: it's a terrible, miserable existence, and often people will start

434
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 6: using either alcohol or drugs to kind of doll the reality,

435
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 6: and within a few weeks they may very well be addicted.

436
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 6: There's also a lot of mental illness, and we do

437
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 6: not have a good functioning mental health system in this country. Famously,

438
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 6: JFK abolished state mental hospitals in nineteen sixty three, shortly

439
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 6: before his assassination, and nothing came up to replace them.

440
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 6: So people who are mentally ill families who have a

441
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 6: mentally ill member of their family and their home and

442
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 6: find that they just they can't get them help, and

443
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 6: they certainly can't have them living with them. They're just

444
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 6: too destructive, and they end up out on the street

445
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 6: with no one to help them. And then the drugs

446
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 6: will exacerbate that. Today's marijuana is so strong it will

447
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 6: induce psychosis. So it's very much an insidious problem, the

448
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 6: tie between mental illness and addiction. So it's complicated to solve,

449
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 6: but it is solvable.

450
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: You know, it seems to me, Mary, it's such a

451
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: hard problem, just the way you describe it, for the

452
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: simple reason that our government doesn't even know how to

453
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,240
Speaker 1: take people who don't have addiction, who don't have mental illness,

454
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: and for example, get them off welfare and into productive work.

455
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 1: So what I'm getting at is our government has a

456
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: terrible record even with people who are in general able

457
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 1: bodied and on their feet. And what you're saying is

458
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: we're now talking about people who have become cut off

459
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: from their families, so they don't have that support structure.

460
00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: They are often dealing with these addictions and perhaps mental illness,

461
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: one or the other or both, and it's going to

462
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: take some pretty enlightened government policy to deal with this. Now.

463
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: Is it also a fact that from the point of

464
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: view of the Democrats, and particularly in these blue states,

465
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: that they cynically view the homeless as not only a

466
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: mechanism for not only a mechanism for delivering votes to

467
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party, but maybe also a mechanism for delivering

468
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: large amounts of money to a network of nonprofits, a

469
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:39,719
Speaker 1: so called homeless industry that intercepts most of the money

470
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: allocated to the homeless. In other words, this isn't just

471
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: well meaning government policy going awry. It's a bit of

472
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: a racket, don't you think.

473
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 6: Well, the subtitle of our book is very deliberate. It's

474
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 6: good intentions, bad outcomes, transformative solutions. I like to think

475
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 6: that everybody who's involved in homeless business does so out

476
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 6: of good intentions, But unfortunately they have a very mistaken

477
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 6: hypothesis as to what will help people who are experiencing homelessness,

478
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 6: and so the outcomes of the policies that they've enacted

479
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 6: and the money that they're spending is very bad. We

480
00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 6: have terrible outcomes for people experiencing homelessness. Federal policy drives

481
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 6: a lot of the spending, and the state and local level,

482
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 6: even though it's not the lion's share of the spending,

483
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 6: the narrative has permeated every level of government pretty much,

484
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 6: and they're directing all of their money into what's called

485
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 6: permanent supportive housing or housing first, which designed originally for

486
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 6: a very small portion of the population, but it's now

487
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 6: being applied to the entire population as if it's just

488
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 6: a homogeneous glob of people. It's very expensive, it's very ineffective,

489
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 6: and as we can see from the numbers, since this

490
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 6: became policy, it's exacerbating the problem badly. Helmlessness is exploding

491
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 6: everywhere as spending is exploding everywhere.

492
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: Right, But if I can push you on this a

493
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:14,239
Speaker 1: little bit, it seems to me that when you have

494
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: a problem you throw a lot of money at it,

495
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't get solved. The number of homeless multiplies you

496
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: throw more money at it. You got to assume that

497
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: the people who are doing this can see the result.

498
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: In other words, they recognize that the problem is metastasizing,

499
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: and it's not that hard to see how they gain

500
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: from that politically. And so if you take the approach

501
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 1: that they are well meaning but you know, well meaning bunglers,

502
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: then the solution becomes, well, we need to give them

503
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: arguments and persuasion and show them that they're going down

504
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: the wrong road. But think of it differently, if this

505
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: was not a problem of ignorance, but this was a

506
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: kind of a political gang operation. Let's say, similar, for example,

507
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: to the you know, the Tammany Hall racket of the

508
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,839
Speaker 1: nineteenth century. You know, think of it. There's no point

509
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: calling in the bosses in the nineteenth century telling them, hey, listen,

510
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: you know you're not achieving the results you really aim for,

511
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: because they're like, we're running a racket around here. It

512
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 1: calls for a different kind of strategy to bust the racket.

513
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: And so I guess what I'm asking you is, I mean,

514
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm all in favor by the way of making good

515
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: arguments and using the tools of persuasion, but are there

516
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: other tools that are also needed ultimately to dismantle what

517
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: some people have been just calling like the homeless industry.

518
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 6: Densha exactly right. The incentives in government are perverse. As

519
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 6: the problem gets worse, people are rewarded with larger budgets

520
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 6: and larger staffs and more power. So government is not

521
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 6: going to be the solution here. What we've been working

522
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 6: on is applying a wonderful, large scale solution that we

523
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 6: found in the course of our research, which is in

524
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 6: San Antonio, Texas, which was the result of the entire

525
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 6: community coming together, every sector of the community and designing

526
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 6: a very well functioning system that deals with all of

527
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,319
Speaker 6: the individualized aspects of homelessness. And we've been working with

528
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 6: especially private sector leaders here in the San Francisco Bay

529
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 6: Area to replicate that kind of a community organization, a

530
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 6: private sector led response to the crisis, and we're seeing

531
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,680
Speaker 6: good progress. It's going to take more work, but absolutely

532
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 6: we have to set up competing infrastructures for dealing with

533
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 6: this and hope that the voters and the citizens of

534
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 6: the community can see and realize and they really are.

535
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 6: I mean, that's what happened here in San Francisco. People

536
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 6: have really rebelled after forty years of being told pay

537
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 6: your taxes that we're going to solve the problem, you know,

538
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,840
Speaker 6: past this bond measure will solve the problem. People finally

539
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 6: have figured it out. Well, they're not. We've given you

540
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 6: billions and billions and billions of dollars. There was an

541
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 6: audit earlier this year by the state showing that California

542
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 6: has spent just a state, not including localities, has spent

543
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 6: twenty four billion dollars over five years on homelessness and

544
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 6: cannot account for where it went or what it achieved.

545
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,600
Speaker 6: So citizens are not stupid. They've risen up, formed grassroots

546
00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 6: organizations and have really rebelled against the status quo. It

547
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 6: resulted in the election of a moderate mayor in San

548
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:45,840
Speaker 6: Francisco last year for the first time in decades. But

549
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 6: it's really an expression with the will of the people,

550
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 6: and people are getting involved. And that's what has to happen,

551
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,399
Speaker 6: is people have to get involved and understand that this

552
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 6: is an issue that the community needs to get together

553
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 6: and resolve. Government is never going to and it just can't.

554
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: I think what you're saying, also, Mary here is that

555
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: you need a you need an alternative path that works,

556
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: and you mentioned San Antonio. Can you sketch out just

557
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: briefly give me an idea of like what that looks like.

558
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: All right, So let's say, for example, I'm a guy

559
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,720
Speaker 1: who's let's even not say mentally ill, although my critics

560
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: might disagree. Let's just say, you know, I've got some

561
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,760
Speaker 1: addictions that take some painkillers. I'm out in the street,

562
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: I live in San Antonio. How do you help me?

563
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 6: So San Antonio, again, every sector of the community came together.

564
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 6: They created something called Haven for Hope. It's a twenty

565
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 6: two acre viscility campus right next to downtown and it

566
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 6: has both resources for people who are not yet experiencing

567
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 6: homelessness or a danger of experiencing homelessness. They have aidy

568
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 6: nonprofits on site, so you can go in and access

569
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 6: the services that you need. Need short term rental assistance,

570
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 6: they'll just they'll give you a check to cover this

571
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,760
Speaker 6: month while you get back on your feet, et cetera.

572
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 6: And then it goes up to there's an emergency shelter

573
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 6: where if you just need a safe place to sleep,

574
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,839
Speaker 6: a warm shower, a hot meal, you can come in

575
00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 6: and get that, and you can also then have access

576
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 6: to all of the services. And then the larger part

577
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,439
Speaker 6: of the campus is called the Transformational Campus, and that's

578
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 6: for people who really want to commit to getting back

579
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 6: on their feet, and it's a secure residential facility. You

580
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 6: commit to sobriety, you commit to working your plan again.

581
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 6: They're aiding nonprofits on campus right there to come alongside

582
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 6: you and create the support system that you need to

583
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 6: meet your housing plan, your employment plan, your life skills plan,

584
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 6: perhaps your reunification with your family, whatever it is that

585
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,279
Speaker 6: you need to work on to achieve your full potential.

586
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 6: They will provide you the resources that help you do that,

587
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 6: and it's just marvelous. So, for example, the police come

588
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 6: across somebody in the streets who's having a psychotic incident

589
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 6: or whatever, they can drop them off at Haven and

590
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 6: know that they'll be taken care of right away. If

591
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 6: it's temporary and they get stabilized, they can come in

592
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 6: better for more treatment, or they can leave if they

593
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 6: want to. Again, if somebody is severely under the influence,

594
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 6: the police can drop them off at the sobering facility

595
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 6: at Haven, and then the police are just back on

596
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 6: the street. They're not sitting in the emergency room for

597
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 6: hours waiting for somebody to be admitted. They can do

598
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 6: the job that they need to do, and know that

599
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 6: the professionals at Haven are taking care of that individual

600
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 6: who needs care.

601
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,799
Speaker 1: Wow. I mean, this is fascinating and actually reminds me

602
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: a little bit at least of what I've read about

603
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: the way things used to be in the private sector,

604
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: both in the United States and even in England. I'm

605
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: thinking here of Gertrude Himmelfarb's work on marriage and morals

606
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 1: among the Victorians. How the Victorians would set up through

607
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: the apparatus of churches, these volunteer societies, sobriety, sobriety societies,

608
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: temperance societies, ways of kind of getting you back on

609
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: your feet and getting you into the productive workforce. And

610
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: I think what you're saying is that this kind of

611
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 1: private sector solution is exactly what we need to revive,

612
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: perhaps in a new form in the twenty first century. Guys,

613
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 1: I've been talking to Mary Thureau. The book is Beyond Homeless,

614
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: Good Intentions, Bad Outcomes, Transformative Solutions. The website for the

615
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: Independent Institute very Simple Independent dot org. Mary, thank you

616
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: very much for joining me.

617
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 6: Thank you for having me, dan Asko, to see you again.

618
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 1: Good to see you.

619
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,200
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620
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,240
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621
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622
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623
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624
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625
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626
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627
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628
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629
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630
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631
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632
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633
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636
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637
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Speaker 1: We are in the section of my book Life After

638
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: Death The Evidence. While we are talking about the mind

639
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: and the brain. And we are considering the philosophy of

640
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: reductive materialism, according to which all mental states are kind

641
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: of reducible to material physical states like motions of neurons

642
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: inside your physical brain. And I mentioned the last time

643
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: two theories that I want to answer one by one.

644
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,240
Speaker 1: The first one is you can call it the identity theory.

645
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,280
Speaker 1: The mind is the brain. And when we say the mind,

646
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: we mean nothing other than the brain. There are just

647
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 1: two words for the same thing, the same way that

648
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: the morning star and the evening star both refer to

649
00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: the venus. The second theory is called the functional theory,

650
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 1: and that is basically that the mind is what the

651
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:57,719
Speaker 1: brain does. The mind is what exercises the function of

652
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: the brain. And so while the two aren't identical, the

653
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,399
Speaker 1: one is merely describing the actions of the of the other.

654
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:12,200
Speaker 1: We can understand the mind as the functioning or functional

655
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:19,839
Speaker 1: aspect of the physical brain. Now, uh, the philosopher Leibnitz

656
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,800
Speaker 1: taught us a way to figure out if two things

657
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: are identical. Well, considering the first theory, the mind is

658
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: the brain, so think of it in algebraic terms, mind

659
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:38,919
Speaker 1: equal sign brain. Now, Leibniz says that if a equals B.

660
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: Then the way you can test that is to say,

661
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: everything that is true about A has got to be

662
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 1: true about B. And if you find something that is

663
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: true about A or B that is not true about

664
00:43:55,920 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 1: the other, then A is not always equal to be.

665
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: The identity theory just doesn't really work. So think of

666
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:07,960
Speaker 1: it this way. If a guy comes to my door,

667
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 1: I open the door and the guy goes, I'm Barack Obama.

668
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 1: And let's just say he looks exactly like Obama. Now

669
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: I have to say, if he is Obama, then everything

670
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 1: that's true about Obama has to be true about this guy.

671
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: If I can find something that's true about this guy

672
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 1: that I know is not true about Obama, he's not Obama.

673
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: It's very simple. So that's the light Nitzian test. And

674
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: we want to apply this test to see if mental

675
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: states are the same as brain states. So imagine now

676
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 1: that I have a mental state right now, and I'm

677
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: thinking in my mind that George Washington was our greatest president.

678
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: That's a thought in my mind right now now. According

679
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 1: to identity theory, this mental state is the same as

680
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: my current brain state, the physical state of my brain.

681
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: But this can't be true. Why well, first of all,

682
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: because my mental state is private, it's known only to me.

683
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,759
Speaker 1: Only I know what is going on right now in

684
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: my own mind. But my brain state is not private.

685
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: A neuroscientist or a neurologist could a pet scan look

686
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:33,480
Speaker 1: at my brain see what my brain state is. So

687
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: one is private, the other is public. Second of all,

688
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 1: my mental state cannot be physically located. You can say

689
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 1: it's in my head, but you can never find it

690
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: in my head, and my brain state can be found.

691
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: It's right there, it's where my physical brain is. Moreover,

692
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 1: my mental state is about something. In other words, it's

693
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: about George Washington. It refers to something outside of itself.

694
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: It has a pointer built into it. I am speaking

695
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 1: about this or that, but that's not true of my

696
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: brain state. My brain state isn't about something. My brain

697
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 1: state simply is. It's just. It's just the way it is.

698
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: Not only that, but I am infallible about my own

699
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: mental state. But I can't be infallible about my own

700
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 1: brain state. In other words, if I'm thinking that George

701
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: Washington was the greatest president, I might be wrong whether

702
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 1: he was or not, but I'm infallible in thinking that

703
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 1: that's what I'm thinking right now. I know for sure

704
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: what my mental state is, but I could easily be

705
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 1: mistaken about my brain state. I may think I have

706
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: only twelve neurons in my brain. In fact I have

707
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: millions of neurons. I think that my language ability is

708
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: over here. In fact it's over there. So I've just

709
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: identified a whole bunch of things, four things, four separate

710
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: things that tell you that mental states are not brain states.

711
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 1: Why because I've shown you things that are true of

712
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: the one that are not true of the other. So

713
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: identity theory has just miserably failed the Leibniz test. Now

714
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,720
Speaker 1: we move to the second theory, which is called functionalism.

715
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: And as I mentioned, functionalism basically means that you can

716
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: give a descriptive account of the functions of the brain,

717
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: and that is what we call the mental So the

718
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: best way to understand functionalism is like this. What is

719
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 1: a mousetrap is a mouse trap a wooden apparatus that

720
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: has a little window and a trap door. Is that

721
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,600
Speaker 1: what a mousetrap is? Well, sort of, But you can

722
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: make a mousetrap another way. A mousetrap is just simply

723
00:47:46,480 --> 00:47:51,319
Speaker 1: a contraption that catches mice. Whatever catches mice is a

724
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: mouse trap. So a mousetrap can be defined by its function,

725
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: not just by what it looks like or what its

726
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 1: dimensions are. So funk credo is that the mind is

727
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:10,919
Speaker 1: basically what the brain makes you do. Now, I think

728
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 1: that this functional theory doesn't work any better than the

729
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: identity theory for this reason, and that is that a

730
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 1: mental state and behavior are two completely different things. So

731
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: let's consider, for example, the feeling of being in love.

732
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: That is a mental state. Now that may lead you

733
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: to do some things like you might decide to write

734
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 1: love letters, you might decide to send flowers, you might

735
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: decide to plan a date or plan a wedding. So

736
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 1: those are the actions. But even those, though, those are

737
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: the actions that maybe predictably or sometimes unpredictably flow from

738
00:48:56,680 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 1: this mental state, nobody can say that those things are

739
00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 1: the mental state because there is an inner quality to

740
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 1: the mental state that these actions simply cannot reflect the

741
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: inner quality. It's sometimes it's. The term for this is

742
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 1: kualia qualia is the inner sense of what it is

743
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: like to experience something, and that is not something that

744
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,799
Speaker 1: can be captured in any kind of an action. One

745
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:28,520
Speaker 1: good way to test us, by the way, is I

746
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 1: want to refer to a famous philosophical essay written now

747
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: about fifty years ago by a philosopher called Thomas Nagel,

748
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 1: and it was called what Is it Like to Be

749
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 1: a Bat? Now, you might think this is like typical

750
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 1: philosophical mumbo jumbo. This guy Thomas Nagel is sitting around, Oh,

751
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 1: what's it like for me? Thomas Nagel to you know,

752
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 1: I wonder what life would be like if I had

753
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 1: bat wings and I flew around. No, that's actually not

754
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,719
Speaker 1: what Thomas Nagel is getting at. He asking what it

755
00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,720
Speaker 1: is like for him, Thomas Nagel to try to imaginatively

756
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: put himself in the place of a bat. He's asking

757
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 1: what is it like for a bat to be a bat?

758
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,359
Speaker 1: In other words, what is the inner experience of being

759
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: a bat as experienced by the bat? And this is

760
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: of course not exclusive to bats. You could ask the

761
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: same thing, what is it like to be a dog?

762
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: There must be something that it's like to be a dog.

763
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 1: And here's Nagel's point that you can understand everything about

764
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: a bat the way it moves around, echolocation, the physical

765
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: structure of the bat. Same with the dog. You can

766
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 1: understand everything about the dog. It's like forelegs it's got,

767
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 1: this is how it functions, this is what the dog does,

768
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: This is where the dog goes, this is what the

769
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 1: dog eats and he goes, And you're going to have

770
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 1: no idea at the end what it is like to

771
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: be a dog. In fact, Debbi, I was just talking

772
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 1: today on the way to the podcast about whether dogs

773
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: can This may seem like an earlier weird conversation, but

774
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 1: about do dogs have morality? And Debby's like, oh, you'll

775
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 1: be amazed. Dogs are so kind and they can protect

776
00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,480
Speaker 1: their masters. And I was saying, well, that's not really

777
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: morality at all, because morality is not simply doing the

778
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: actions that reflect one's own self interest. I got a master,

779
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: he feeds me, he looks after me. I like him,

780
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: so I'm going to protect him. Morality is actually acting,

781
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: by and large against self interest. You ought to do this,

782
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,480
Speaker 1: you must not do that, And those commands would be

783
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: meaningless if you didn't feel like doing it, if you

784
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: weren't even inclined to do it in the first place,

785
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 1: why would you need the instruction don't do that? Now,

786
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: the point here with coming back to Thomas Nagel is

787
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: that he's basically saying that the inner mental state of

788
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: the bat cannot be understood by what bats do, so

789
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: the functional theory fails. You can understand all the functions

790
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 1: of a bat. Oh, it's evolutionary place, and it's a

791
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 1: biological role in the ecosystem, and how it feeds the

792
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 1: young and all of this, and it will get you

793
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 1: no closer at all to understanding what is it like

794
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 1: to be a bat? And when I pick this up

795
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: again tomorrow, and by the way, tomorrow, I'm going to

796
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,120
Speaker 1: do kind of a special issue on life after death

797
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: because I want to move things along. And there's so

798
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: much rich material in this book. By the way, I

799
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: hope you get it as a reference book. There's like

800
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:29,040
Speaker 1: a mini education here in itself. We're going to cover

801
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 1: a lot of ground. I'm going to devote much of

802
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 1: tomorrow to like a special edition of this topic. I'll

803
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 1: have a short monologue up front, but then the rest

804
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: of it. Oh, I'm sorry, Debbie's reminding me. This is

805
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 1: I'm talking not about tomorrow, but about Wednesday. I'm traveling

806
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,360
Speaker 1: on Wednesday, and so I'm going to pre record a

807
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 1: show for you, and it's going to be a kind

808
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: of special Life After Death edition, so more to come

809
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 1: on Wednesday.

810
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,480
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Dnesh DeSUS a podcast on Apple, Google,

811
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:05,440
Speaker 2: and Spotify, or watch on Rumble YouTube and salemnow dot com.

812
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 6: H