1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life audio. 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 2: I love the Old Testament. How many of you guys 3 00:00:06,840 --> 00:00:10,280 Speaker 2: actually spend time diving deep into there? Not to convict you, 4 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 2: not to make you feel bad, but truly there is 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: so much that we can learn about the nature of God, 6 00:00:15,920 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: the love of God, and relationally, how He relates to 7 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 2: us as humanity. And that is what the Word has 8 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 2: said is all about. So let's dive into that in 9 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 2: today's episode. Hello, Hello, Hello, ladies and gents, and welcome 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 2: to this week's episode of the Bottom Beloved Podcast. As always, 11 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 2: it's your girl, Kirby Kelly back at it again. We 12 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: are in a season of guests because, as you all know, 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 2: the time that this episode is uploaded, I will have 14 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 2: had my baby. I'm probably just breastfeeding somewhere, praying that 15 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: God would give me an extra few hours to sleep. 16 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: But I'm filming this episode a little ahead of time. 17 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 2: But that doesn't stop me from having incredible guests, now, 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: does it. I have a wonderful guess who is joining 19 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,199 Speaker 2: me today. Her name is Jenny Metheni, and. 20 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: You guys know me. 21 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 2: You guys know that I love theology. I love getting 22 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 2: into the meat of scripture, diving ten layers deep and 23 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: to meet another fellow woman in theology. It just is 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: the coolest thing ever. I mean, to me, anyone who 25 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 2: loves theology is the coolest thing ever. But to kind 26 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 2: of see a glimpse into, you know, where I hope 27 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 2: to be one day. 28 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: It's like, Oh my gosh, this is so cool. 29 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 2: And she actually authored a book that comes out on 30 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 2: May twenty sixth, which I'm assuming this episode is live 31 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 2: by then, if not, pre order it. If it is, 32 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 2: order it. Her new book that just came out is 33 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: called has Said the Seed of the Biblical Story, New 34 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: Life for Old Testament theology. You might be like, what 35 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 2: does that even mean. That's what we're gonna be talking 36 00:01:53,520 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: about today because this is a word that I have 37 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 2: picked up throughout Scripture as well in my own study 38 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 2: of it, and it's so important. When I saw the 39 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: title of her book, I was like, I want her 40 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 2: on the podcast. We need to talk about this. And 41 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,080 Speaker 2: in reading her book everything that I was able to 42 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: read from it, I was like, this is brilliant, this 43 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: is great. So we're gonna have a great conversation today. 44 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 2: I hope that this helps you to grow in your 45 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 2: love for the Word of God, but also God himself, 46 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: but whatever. Further Ado, Jenny, welcome to the podcast. Can 47 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 2: you introduce yourself to the listeners today who might not 48 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: know who you are, what you do, what you're passionate about. 49 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, Kurby, thank you so much for having me. 50 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 3: I love your energy and just all the work you do. 51 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 3: And anyways, I've been really excited to discover your podcast 52 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 3: now and to add it to my list, So thank 53 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 3: you for having me. 54 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: So yeah. 55 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: So currently I am starting my third year as a 56 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 3: professor of Christian Scriptures Old Testament at Truett Seminary, Baylor 57 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 3: University in Waco, Texas. And I yeah, like been in 58 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: ministry with my family for over thirty years, youth ministry, 59 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 3: church planting, church revitalisation, and lots of different states. 60 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: So we've like really just have a passion for the church. 61 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 3: And I along the way, I went back to school 62 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 3: later in life as I was a mom, and I 63 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 3: always say I accidentally got my master's an Old Testament. 64 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 3: My husband went for his degree at Regent College in Vancouver, Canada. 65 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 1: We had two small kids. 66 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I took a class Old Testament theology, a 67 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: free course for you know, a spouse. Spouses could take 68 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 3: free courses, fell in love, and I just decided I 69 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 3: want to keep going on, and so I ended up 70 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 3: with a master's and Old Testament, having no idea what I. 71 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: Would do with it, and just it's interesting. 72 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 3: I look back now now that I'm a professor, and 73 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 3: I think, Wow, I would have done my master's different if. 74 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:43,839 Speaker 1: I knew this was my trajectory. 75 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 2: Wow. 76 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 3: But I'm so grateful I didn't because I was able 77 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 3: to focus on my one year old and my three 78 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 3: year old really well. And so I just thought, thank 79 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: you Lord, because I would have I would have been 80 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 3: like taing and trying to do this and that. And 81 00:03:57,040 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 3: so it's just interesting how the Lord like when it's time, 82 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 3: will open up the next step, and to trust wherever 83 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 3: you're at, however you're at, whatever season that is. So anyways, 84 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 3: never never would have stopt, you know this coming, but 85 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 3: so delighted though to be teaching and getting to influence people, 86 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 3: and you know, going to ministry and the students here 87 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 3: are just phenomenal. I'm sure you had a similar experience 88 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 3: when you were in school as well. 89 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 4: So oh yeah, oh yeah. 90 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 2: And I have friends that did the Baylor Seminary program 91 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 2: and they all loved it. They all raved about the classes, 92 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 2: the professors and everything. I went. I went to DBU 93 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,400 Speaker 2: Dallas Baptist and we have a partnership with Baylor through 94 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 2: the nursing program. But I have lots of friends who 95 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,840 Speaker 2: ended up going to Baylor, like through that and Greade. 96 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 1: School too, So shout out to Baylor wonderful. 97 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:43,239 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, please con visit stop by my office second 98 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 3: for truth. 99 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 2: I know I'll probably be there in the back of 100 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: the classroom listening to her. 101 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: Always welcome you. 102 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 2: Uh well, I'm excited to talk about this book because 103 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: it's one of those things I love. I love a 104 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: good word study in scripture because the Biblical just the 105 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 2: Biblical narrative, but the meta narrative of scripture, and especially 106 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 2: the Old Testament. I think that's something that a lot 107 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: of Christians either aren't equipped to know how to like 108 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 2: dive deep, ask questions, really really survey the Old Testament. 109 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 2: But I think you do such a good job because 110 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: has said is one of those pillars that we see throughout. 111 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: But before we even get into all of that, can 112 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 2: you start by explaining what has said? 113 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 4: Is? 114 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,479 Speaker 2: Where do we get it in scriptures? What is the 115 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:38,239 Speaker 2: word has said? Why is this even important? And maybe 116 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: like why that inspired you to write the book in 117 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: the first place. 118 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: Absolutely, it is a term, hessid. 119 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 3: It is just this like m It's captivate scholars, artists. 120 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: It's such a profound theological word that is really hard 121 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 3: to define. 122 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna do my best. 123 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 3: To lay it out and hopefully my hope is by 124 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 3: the end of this podcast is that your listeners will 125 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 3: just deeply sense the love of God in a new 126 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 3: and deeper way. So it is a Hebrew word in 127 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 3: the Old Testament, very rich theological word again that has 128 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 3: just captivated scholars, artists, even people on Facebook or social 129 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 3: media will say, oh, yeah, I've always thought this is 130 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 3: what the Bible's about, you know. So, but it is. 131 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 3: It is a little tricky to kind of like wrap 132 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 3: our minds around. Those in the field that do these 133 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 3: big lexical word studies. They will spend paragraphs trying to 134 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 3: describe and define it. 135 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,920 Speaker 1: It's almost comical. And so but I and I'll get 136 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: to like a way I think about it that I 137 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: think will help your listeners. 138 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 3: Okay, but I I'll describe it, and this is my 139 00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 3: working definition. So I'll give this first, and it's it 140 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:51,480 Speaker 3: is a paragraph, but it's shorter than most. 141 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 4: You're good. 142 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 3: It is the loyal, loving kindness that originates in God's nature, 143 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 3: embodying both answerability and possibility through anticipated and creative relational 144 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 3: endeavors and expressions among God, humanity, and creation. So when 145 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 3: I use the word answerability, this comes from a Russian philosopher, 146 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 3: Michel Boctein, and it basically is the ethical response. So 147 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 3: it's the ethics like how do I, in my space 148 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 3: and time respond to this moment? No one else can 149 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 3: do what I am to do right now, and so 150 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: it has this beautiful sense of responsibility. 151 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: Now. 152 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 3: In our English Bibles, when this word in Hebrew is 153 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 3: translated into English, these are some of the words that 154 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 3: you will see love, loving, kindness, mercy, loyalty, steadfast love, 155 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 3: unfailing love, kindness, faithfulness. So depending on context context, it's 156 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 3: often translated with these words, and it's clear right that 157 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 3: context is going to matter. But the problem is the word, 158 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 3: this unique Old Testament word. Those other words are also 159 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 3: other Hebrew words. So if it's translated as mercy, that 160 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 3: is a different Hebrew word or love aha, So it 161 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 3: is its own thing, if that makes sense. It's a 162 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 3: noun occurring two hundred over two hundred and fifty times 163 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 3: in the Old Testament, and one hundred and twenty seven 164 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 3: are in the Psalms, which I find really fascinating. 165 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: So one of the. 166 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 3: Chapters, as you read in my book, is all about 167 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 3: the songs, how it's really important later on right, how 168 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 3: that is in their liturgy they sing about it all 169 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 3: of that. So again it's unique in the Old Testament. 170 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 3: It does not have a cognate in other Semitic languages. 171 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 3: There's no equivalent right in other languages. So it's a 172 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:48,720 Speaker 3: really special word. One scholar writes that there is no 173 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 3: single word that can replace every occurrence of the word 174 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: hesid in the Hebrew Bible or the Old Testament, so 175 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 3: it's easier, this person writes to Gordon Clark to state 176 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 3: the circum stances or describe an action than to define 177 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 3: the word. So if you can hang in there with me, 178 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 3: I think I can kind of bring this home a bit. 179 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 3: So as a word, the one thing that all scholars 180 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 3: will agree on that have done the deep dives is 181 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 3: that it's fundamentally relational. And this makes sense because it 182 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 3: can remain abstract unless you think about it. In a relationship. 183 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 3: So in my book, I use the example of friendship. 184 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: If I ask someone describe friendship, you know they might 185 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 3: be able to say what a friend is not because 186 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,679 Speaker 3: of a recent wounding, or maybe there's some similarities with 187 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:41,599 Speaker 3: other friendships. And I personally get overwhelmed at the prospect 188 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 3: of describing friendship. Like I'm a feeler. Often I'll feel 189 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 3: things before I know how to logically put words together. 190 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 3: I'll just like cry, and actually, in my work, sorry, 191 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: it's like a little side. I often will tear up 192 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 3: when I'm thinking or like, I'll feel something, and that's 193 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 3: where I've learned to follow my tears, to know that 194 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 3: my body is alerting me that something is really important 195 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 3: and to stay there. So often a lot of my 196 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 3: teaching will come from tears first, or my writing like 197 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 3: this book as well. 198 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: So there's so much meaning for me in the word friendship. 199 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 3: So many stories come to mind, but it's abstract but 200 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 3: also meaningful. But then when I attach it to a 201 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 3: specific friend, I have no problem describing that particular friendship 202 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:32,679 Speaker 3: in great detail. 203 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 1: And that's where I. 204 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 3: Think he said through story is helpful. It's not this 205 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 3: big thing, but it's like, wait, how is it used 206 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 3: in relationship, whether it's like the Covenental, a risk, a 207 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 3: courageous action. 208 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: So it's uh. 209 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 3: And then like when you think of that particular friend, 210 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 3: you get really specific, right, like the way they're really 211 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 3: funny or hospitable, maybe the ways they've been there for 212 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 3: me in hard times or I've been there for them. 213 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 3: So when I began to actually think about this book 214 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 3: and even talked to the acquisition editors, I just had 215 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 3: this image of I don't know if some of you 216 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 3: might be familiar with. 217 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: The Lord of the Rings series. Yes, with Tolkien. 218 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 3: I mean our family watches it every Thanksgiving, like all 219 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 3: of it sended versions. 220 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: We start with the Hobbit, we go through all this 221 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: aw it's so fun. 222 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 3: And the image I had with Pessaid and friendship was 223 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,040 Speaker 3: this image of Sam and Frodo, like sitting on Mount 224 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 3: Doom after the Ring has been thrown in you know, 225 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 3: cast in the lava fire. Yeah, at the end of 226 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 3: their journey to stay in Middle Earth. I mean we've 227 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 3: just been on this like massive journey with them. And 228 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 3: then I imagine like you pop in for this podcast 229 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 3: interview and you ask each how would you describe your 230 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 3: friendship and it's like, Wow, after that journey, I just 231 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 3: sensed words would fail, right, Like friendship in that moment 232 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 3: means so many things, sacrifice, forgiveness, faithfulness, love us like 233 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: but then even then the words seem to fail. 234 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: So I feel like what Pest said, it's similar. 235 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 3: It's this relational word that and its meaning really takes 236 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 3: shape in its story and context, kind of like friendship. 237 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: And so we can get to that later. 238 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 3: But yeah, but the second part of your question is 239 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 3: like why am I passionate about this for believers today, 240 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 3: Like like why does this word matter? And I think 241 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 3: it's so we all are trying to figure out, like 242 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 3: how does God love us? Like that is my deepest 243 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 3: core desire, like that people know they're love by God. 244 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 3: I feel like everything else we'd figure out later. But 245 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 3: that is key. And as I've traced this term through 246 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 3: the Old Testament, this deeply theological term, relational term, I 247 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 3: can say with confidence that yes, you are loved beyond 248 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: what you can imagine. One of the things I've enjoyed 249 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 3: tracing with this term is that it often pops up 250 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 3: after people have blown it big time, like royally messed up, right, 251 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 3: And so I feel like it can be this beautiful 252 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 3: corrective even tracing it through these really you know, crazy 253 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 3: old Testament stories. Is that if you've ever been loved 254 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 3: conditionally or felt loved only if you looked a certain way, 255 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 3: or you grew up in a like a chaotic home 256 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 3: or that kind of stuff, like to know you're loved 257 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 3: with this kind of He said love, it can be. Yeah, 258 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 3: this total reorientation not only with how God sees you 259 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 3: and me, but also that as image bearers that we 260 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 3: get to partner with God in the world. And so 261 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 3: I almost think of like Hebrews twelve one through two. 262 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 3: I love that verse, like how Jesus is this author 263 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 3: and finisher of our faith right, like this beautiful these 264 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 3: cloud of witness is cheering us on, and I can 265 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: almost imagine Jesus saying, like you're partnered with me, like 266 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 3: how are we going to write this story? And so 267 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 3: just that deep relational sense, and so I think, sorry, I'll. 268 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: Wrap it up in a minute. 269 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 3: But your good question is that number one, you're deeply 270 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 3: loved with God's has said love. Nothing will change that, 271 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 3: not even your biggest mistakes. The second thing is that 272 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 3: who you are, with all your uniqueness matters in this world, 273 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 3: that you are invited to partner with God, to care 274 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 3: for your neighbors, for creation, for whatever corner of. 275 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: The world you find yourself in. 276 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,160 Speaker 3: And Third, as we get to later in the podcast, 277 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 3: we might get to this, but one of the things 278 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 3: as I trace this term and looked at it, especially 279 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 3: with people on the outside like women, these marginal figures, 280 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 3: that the smallest acts can have reverberating impact for generations. 281 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: There is like nothing too small in God's kingdom economy. 282 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 3: And I was thinking, as I was kind of thinking 283 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 3: about this podcast, Mother Teresa's quote came to me, and 284 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 3: she said, as she writes, don't look for the. 285 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: Big things, just do small things with great love. 286 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 3: And I think he said reveals how things done with 287 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 3: He said, whatever act or disposition or prayer you pray 288 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 3: can have great acts of consequence, and they can change 289 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 3: the course of a future, not only for families and nations, 290 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 3: but the world. And so I do truly believe that 291 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 3: knowing that you are deeply loved in this way can 292 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 3: change everything. 293 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 1: So that is a bit of yeah, like that's the 294 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: episode right there. 295 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 2: It's so good, No good, right, No, that's so good 296 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 2: because it is one of those words, like you've said 297 00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: that it is so hard to encapsulate everything it encapsulates 298 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 2: and contextually in scripture, because I did a word study 299 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: on it a while ago, a long time ago, So 300 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: reading your book again it was a refresher on that 301 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 2: of like, wow, this appears so many times in scripture, 302 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 2: and it is so significant to God's character, to Yahweh's 303 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 2: character in nature and how he interacts with his creation, 304 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 2: his beloved, especially in these times where it's like you 305 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 2: have fallen and failed, like why would anyone show up 306 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 2: for you in this way? Yet God does because it's 307 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 2: his nature, which I just love the whole theology and 308 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 2: idea of the nature of God, like who he is, 309 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 2: how he reveals himself in Scripture, even Moses I'm thinking 310 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:29,920 Speaker 2: of when he like passes by and reveals who he is. 311 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 2: But I have a ton of questions, Like I said, 312 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: we're probably gonna get through like three of them, but 313 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: let's let's actually talk about that where I want to 314 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: jump down to one of my questions because you identify Yahweh, 315 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: which if you don't know it, like maybe you're like 316 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: newer to the faith or you hear about all these names, 317 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 2: like you know you have Jehovah, Elo Kim Yohwah. Right, 318 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 2: it's like you have all these names, but Yahweh is 319 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: the self disclosed name that God uses to name himself, 320 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: which I think is very interesting, but it's rooted in 321 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 2: has said, so can you talk a little bit about that, 322 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 2: just of how this is so fundamental to God's nature. 323 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:16,879 Speaker 2: This has said loving kindness, mercifulness, loyal friend, love that 324 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: you so beautifully and eloquently just described. 325 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, no, absolutely, And I think that's one of 326 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 3: the interesting things with this term is and it's connected 327 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 3: with like Israel's biggest mess up or one of them, right, 328 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 3: which comes in Exodus thirty two, So it exites three 329 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 3: Moses revealed or sorry, God reveals God's name to Moses, right, 330 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: this really intimate moment. And one of the things I 331 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 3: love about that is like, I'm the God of you know, 332 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 3: the God of your ancestors, and he names the ancestors 333 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 3: and Moses is really struggling with Moses' identity, right because 334 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 3: he's Raises an Egyptian, he's also Hebrew, And it's like 335 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,919 Speaker 3: God is saying, this is who you are, right, But 336 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: at the same time, having all that he's learned has 337 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 3: really helped him in this moment as well, and what's 338 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,679 Speaker 3: to come. But here God reveals God's name right this 339 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 3: I am who I am, I will be who I 340 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 3: will be. 341 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: And it's a very kind of opaque name in a way. 342 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,640 Speaker 3: And one of the beautiful things about that is it's 343 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 3: almost like as you watch Yahweh work, you'll see who 344 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 3: Yahweh is right like, and that God one of the 345 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 3: like fundamental things is that God is with you, right 346 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 3: and we see that all throughout the Bible into the 347 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 3: New Testament of Jesus right in Manuel, God with us. 348 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 3: And so here we have right Moses, you know, leading 349 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 3: everyone out or following the Lord. And then here there 350 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 3: at the back the base of Mount Sinai, all the 351 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 3: people Moses, you know, heads up. The mountain is gone 352 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 3: a long time in Exous thirty two, and people are 353 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 3: getting a little bit like people without a leader is 354 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:55,880 Speaker 3: it gets messing? 355 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 4: How about we worship an idol? 356 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: How about we make what just happened? Yeah? 357 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, So they're like, okay, so that Aaron, Yeah, Aaron's 358 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 3: he knows his best, does he does he? 359 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: I know? He's so interesting in the scene. 360 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 3: So they end up making a golden cath and say, 361 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 3: here are your you know, here's your God or God's 362 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 3: you know. Israel worship this golden cath because Moses isn't there. 363 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 3: So it's kind of like this idol that embodies either 364 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 3: Moses the Lord. 365 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: I mean, there's lots of research. 366 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: Whoever they want it to be. 367 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I really think it actually could be this 368 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 3: embodiment almost of Moses. And so Moses comes down and 369 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 3: is like whoa right, Moses and God are like frustrated. 370 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 3: Moses ends up destroying this thing, grinding it up, making 371 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 3: him drink it. 372 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: It's a very. 373 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 3: Interesting passage and it makes me laugh because right after 374 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 3: all this, Aaron's like, Moses, don't be angry, and I'm like, 375 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 3: Moses read the room. 376 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: Or Aaron read the room really. 377 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 3: Angry anyways, but here after this, right, they messed up. 378 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,959 Speaker 3: I mean like literally, the Lord just brought you and 379 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 3: now you're worshiping this calf and like you can't even 380 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 3: last five minutes. I know that the rabbis have some 381 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 3: fun things. It's like, you know, you can't even wait 382 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 3: long after your wedding day. You're just you're already unfaithful, 383 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 3: and you know and it's funny. In my Old Testament classes, 384 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 3: it's like, as we go through these stories slowly we 385 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 3: just realize Wow. As human beings, we just blow. 386 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: It time and time again. You find a lot of 387 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: camaraderie with these stories. 388 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 3: So anyways, and then on the heels of that moment, 389 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 3: we have Exodus thirty four, where we have this incredible 390 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: time where God reveals God's self. 391 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: It's sometimes called the grace formula. 392 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 3: Walter Brugemann writes about it, where God expands on God's name. 393 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: And so. 394 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 3: And what's interesting is that the scene, it's sort of like, 395 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 3: this climax is the one time where God self discloses. 396 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 3: It's been described as the fullest self disclosure. 397 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 1: Of Yahweh in the Old Testament. 398 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 3: This list of adjectives Walter Rugumann describes as its credo 399 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 3: a way of like almost like a statement of beliefs. 400 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 3: But here we have it. And the only term twice 401 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,640 Speaker 3: in it is he said, and so it says. Then 402 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,240 Speaker 3: the Lord calls out, Yahweh, Yahweh, a God, merciful and 403 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 3: gracious patient abounding in Hes said, and truth keeper of 404 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 3: Hes said two thousands forgiver of iniquity, transgressions and sin, 405 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 3: and so here we have this statement of how God 406 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 3: is describing God's self. So I'm not done with you people, 407 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 3: even though you've blown it, but actually I'm going to 408 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 3: meet you in this moment of incredible grace. And we 409 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 3: see that really playing out through the rest of Scripture 410 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,680 Speaker 3: as well. And so I think this is really important 411 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 3: to see. Okay, when we blow it, how does God respond? 412 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: Right? 413 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 3: And God is so committed to staying in relationship And 414 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 3: it's surprising times this grace is offered, which often when 415 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 3: we think of the Old Testament, we don't think We 416 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 3: often don't. 417 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: Think of a lot of grace. 418 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,479 Speaker 3: We just often think of some you know, there are 419 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 3: very stories and for good reason, but we actually see 420 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 3: that actually God has not given up on this project. 421 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 1: Like God's committed right the whole way. 422 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, so, and there's so many stories within 423 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 4: Scripture where you detail it in the book with like 424 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,400 Speaker 4: Cain and Esau and Joseph and the women of Exodus. 425 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: Since we're on the Book of Exodus right now. Some 426 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 2: names I can probably do justice with pronouncing and others 427 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 2: I can't. I'm like Miriam, I can pronounce that one, 428 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 2: but like what do these characters and I know you 429 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 2: kind of already touched on it even just with Israel 430 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 2: as a whole. Yeah, how does it teach us about 431 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: God's has said and human participation in it? Because this 432 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 2: is a relational thing that that you were diving into 433 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 2: and explaining. 434 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 3: Within the book. 435 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: Yes, No, absolutely so. 436 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,919 Speaker 3: I think one of the things is and one of 437 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:57,800 Speaker 3: the things I hit on in the book is really 438 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 3: kind of diving deep into the amago day, like what 439 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 3: does that mean to be made in the image of God? Yeah, 440 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 3: and really when I think about especially Exodus one and two, 441 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 3: and I love and the thing I love about the 442 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 3: Old Testament is that it's like very honest about people 443 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 3: blowing it right. Like the minute you kind of think, wow, 444 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: these patriarchs and matriarchs are perfect, and then you actually 445 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 3: read this story and you're like, ooh right. 446 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: They kind of messed up big time. 447 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 2: And we're just singing Sunday school songs about. 448 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: It's like, I don't want to sing Father Abraham anymore. 449 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 2: That's so funny. 450 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 3: But yeah, but but I have a friend that I 451 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 3: love this quote. He says, they're mirrors, not models. Yes, 452 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 3: so they kind of reflect the very humanity. But how 453 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 3: even through the brokenness, God uses powerful themes right like 454 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 3: through very you know, people that are not perfect, and 455 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 3: I think that just gives us so much hope. So 456 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 3: when I think about Exodus one and two, and especially 457 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,719 Speaker 3: all the women right early on in those chapters and 458 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 3: be made in the imago day. 459 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: Okay, sorry, this might take us on an little side trip, but. 460 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 3: I preached a sermon on this and it just was 461 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 3: making me laugh because my daughter took a German class 462 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 3: in high school and they used to literally take a 463 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 3: baby doll and throw it around the room and they 464 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 3: would practice their German like verf this baby. I think, 465 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 3: I'm saying this right, throw the baby and then fonged 466 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 3: us a baby, catch the baby. And I thought, that 467 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 3: is what in the image of God to care for others. 468 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,400 Speaker 3: In Exodus one, these women catch the baby. They do 469 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:42,080 Speaker 3: what is just human nature. We want people to live, 470 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 3: we want right and so I just was thinking, here's 471 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 3: Shiffron Pooah and even the daughter of Pharaoh, right, they 472 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 3: take courageous acts to defy this oppressive political figure and 473 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 3: they save lives and so so, and that's one of 474 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 3: the things where I think, just in the AMaGA day. 475 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 3: They are working that out in really powerful ways because 476 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 3: when people act in ways of his said, it leads 477 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,880 Speaker 3: to blessing and flourishing for others. And when it's neglected, 478 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 3: and we see that in Hosea, right, like there's injustice, oppression, 479 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 3: and death, and so as I'm thinking about these stories 480 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 3: and characters, like, even if that term is not in it, 481 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 3: I will argue that they are acting as image bears 482 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 3: in his said, whether or not that you know that 483 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 3: is in the story because of the outcome, and we 484 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 3: see that right, Like where would Moses be without these women. 485 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 1: Risking their lives? 486 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 3: Even little Miriam, right, She's like I just can't imagine 487 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 3: her asserting her big sister self, you know, going up 488 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 3: to Pharaoh's daughter like, hey, do you need a nurse 489 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 3: for that baby? 490 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: Literally though I know someone my mom. Yeah, yeah, So anyway, 491 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: so I just see that. Yeah, it's this like beautiful 492 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: way like through. 493 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,800 Speaker 3: All these stories and whether they're more and more formal 494 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 3: type covenant situations or other stories like the person of 495 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 3: Ruth and orba Shi said to Naomi, Yeah, I just 496 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 3: and even Naomi's prayer for them, Yeah, I think there's 497 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 3: just so many ways that this. 498 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 1: I don't know. 499 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 3: There's just so much beautiful theological depth and possibility, yeah, 500 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 3: that we see in that. 501 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm not sure if I guess to your question. 502 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 2: I feel like it does and we can uh even 503 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 2: as we begin to wrap, I have a question that 504 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 2: kind of like follows up with that. But I think 505 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 2: everything you're saying it kind of like gave me a 506 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: little light bulb moment of just we can read scriptures 507 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 2: so iogetically right looking for ourselves and everything. But the 508 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 2: beautiful thing about how we're supposed to read scripture and 509 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 2: how your book approaches it exegetically actually reading it for 510 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 2: what it says. What does God want to reveal about himself? 511 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:54,720 Speaker 2: What does he want us to know about what the 512 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 2: text says? Knowing what you just said about the amago 513 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 2: day us being made in the image of God, reading 514 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 2: into the character of his has said nature it informs 515 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 2: us of who we are as Christians and as believers 516 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,520 Speaker 2: and followers of God. And even in the stories that 517 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 2: you're saying, like we see that happening between God's people, 518 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 2: even to the outsiders. So I'm thinking today, as people 519 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: who are listening today, not to dog on anyone to 520 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 2: be like, well, how does this relate to me? Because 521 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 2: like those aren't important questions, right, having our theology inform 522 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,879 Speaker 2: how we live God, how we relate to others. So 523 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 2: how does this, like, through reading your book and through 524 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,120 Speaker 2: the scriptural study of the world, has said, what can 525 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: we as believers today take away from this world? How 526 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 2: should it change us? Knowing that we are made in 527 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 2: God's image, that this is a cornerstone to who He is, 528 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 2: and how we are called to interact in a world 529 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 2: that is fractured, that's polarized in many ways inside the church, 530 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 2: outside the church, how does an understanding of this word, 531 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 2: knowing how it relates to God and scripture translate to 532 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 2: us being christ Like in the world. 533 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's a great question. I think I can 534 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: answer it. 535 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 3: In part is that knowing it's rooted in God, right, 536 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 3: the source of all life, like the cosmos, like there 537 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 3: is an unending like there's just generative possibilities for how 538 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 3: God could work through us right as communities, as individuals, 539 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 3: and so just kind of realizing that, I think it 540 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 3: can help us be a non anxious presence and a 541 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 3: very complex world. 542 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: As you had mentioned, I know, as you know, you 543 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: had sent some questions earlier. 544 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 3: One of the words you had mentioned is polarized, and 545 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 3: I thought, I think there's a space that we can 546 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 3: stand just non anxiously in that knowing that we're all 547 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,840 Speaker 3: imago day and I think that can be really key. 548 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: We are all made in God's image and so and 549 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: also to know how loved we are. 550 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 3: I think that heals so many things within ourselves, and 551 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 3: that you're like for all your listeners and your wherever 552 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 3: you find yourself in the world in your context, is 553 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 3: that your uniqueness is important. And as we partner with 554 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 3: God right like, with that confidence that we can know 555 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 3: that the creative things that come to us, that we 556 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:37,280 Speaker 3: can enact those right have actions of He said and 557 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 3: dispositions of He said. And also just that God's grip 558 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 3: on us is so strong, is that even if ours 559 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 3: feels not so strong. I always think of Peter falling 560 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 3: in the water. 561 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: Jesus like pulling them out. You know that Jesus has 562 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: us right. 563 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 3: So my hope is for readers and listeners to be 564 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 3: able to read stories with fresh eyes right and to 565 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 3: ask God like these are creative stories I read in 566 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 3: the Old Testament and New and maybe there's ways that 567 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 3: I can partner and flourishing in the world, and that 568 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 3: nothing that I do is too small, and even just 569 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 3: starting with loving my family, well, my friends, even myself, 570 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 3: my community, right, Like, I think that's the place to start, 571 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 3: and then just to see where it goes. Yeah, anyways, 572 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 3: I just think that it can be such a place 573 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 3: of grounding in a really beautiful way. 574 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 2: And the more that we understand who God is and 575 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 2: his love for us, it helps us to navigate how 576 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 2: to love other people correctly, or has said other people correctly, 577 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 2: because like you said, it is such a full word 578 00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 2: with more than just one meaning an application to it, 579 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 2: and your book dives into so much more, like it 580 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: dives into where we see it, like you said, through 581 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 2: the Old Testament, through the different types of writing, the narratives, 582 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: you know, poetry, the I mean, it's all throughout, and 583 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 2: you dive so well into all of those things. And 584 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:04,479 Speaker 2: if y'all are interested in it, you can get it today. 585 00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 2: I will link it down below. But can you just 586 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 2: tell people if is there one last thing? I know 587 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 2: that there's so much we could have touched on, but 588 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 2: is there one last thing that you're Like, I just 589 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 2: want people to hear this one thing. If I get 590 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 2: to say one more thing that we didn't get to 591 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 2: touch on today about the book or just anything in general, 592 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 2: that you want to encourage the listeners with. 593 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh absolutely. I think. 594 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 3: One of the things that I've loved through just my 595 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 3: study is realizing how honest we can be with God. 596 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's part of that relational aspect I think of. 597 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:43,600 Speaker 3: He said, even if you're like, I don't know if 598 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 3: I believe God can handle that, right, Like, I think 599 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 3: that's the one thing when I'm thinking about a deeply 600 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 3: relational word. And he said in the Psalms and how 601 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 3: even the ancient community would bring up their biggest mistake. 602 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 3: I'm like, that is not what most people put on 603 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 3: social media, like, hey, this is where I got her 604 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 3: last weekend, right, But it's like they keep bringing up 605 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 3: that Golden Calf story as a way to remember how 606 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 3: faithful God is and so, but also in the Psalms, 607 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 3: that deep honesty and that deep expectation that God will 608 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 3: show up and that God is listening. And so I 609 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 3: think that's one of the things I'd just like to 610 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 3: leave with is that just let yourself be honest wherever 611 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 3: you're at and know you're loved in that place. 612 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: Wherever that is. 613 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 2: That's so beautiful. And where can people check out your book? 614 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 2: I'm sure that that's available all over the place, but 615 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 2: where can people get your book? 616 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: So Baker Academic, we'll have it for sure Amazon. 617 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 3: So I think if you just yeah, type in my 618 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 3: name and the title of the book, it should pop 619 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 3: up somewhere. 620 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 1: So and read it from the library. 621 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 3: If you don't want to spend the money, there'll probably 622 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 3: be e books, So yeah, get it. 623 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: Where y'all can get it. 624 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: Again. The book is called Has Said The Seed of 625 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 2: the Biblical Story New Life for Old Testament Theology by 626 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,760 Speaker 2: my friend here, doctor Jenny Mathene. It's out May twenty sixth, 627 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 2: so I'm hoping that by the time I have this 628 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 2: episode schedule, I believe it will be coming out the 629 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 2: day that your book comes out. So either pre order 630 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: it if I upload it before, or order it now 631 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 2: if it is available, or like she said, go to 632 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 2: your local library. I love the local library. To me too, 633 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 2: I love it. I live in the library, I work 634 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 2: in the library, I eat, breathe, sleep the library. 635 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 1: At this point, I believe it. It's amazing. 636 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for taking time today to just be 637 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 2: here on the podcast. And seriously, it was such a 638 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 2: joy to just interview you to hear more about your heart. 639 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 2: It's so cool when I get to read these books 640 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 2: and I'm like, this is so good and I love it. 641 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 2: I'm like marking on my Bible and everything, and then 642 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 2: I can actually talk to the people behind it and 643 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 2: I'm like, this is awesome, Like we're just people who 644 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 2: love the Lord and it's I'm just encouraged by you. 645 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 4: So thank you. 646 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: Oh, thank you so much. Kirby. Is a joy to 647 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: be on your podcast. Thank you so much. Yeah, great 648 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: to know you so come to Waco. 649 00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 2: I know I'm gonna drive down to Waco after this 650 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 2: right now. Maybe sometimes that'd be great. 651 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 1: And it's all again on here. 652 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 2: Yeah my baby, which'll probably be here by the time 653 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 2: this episode. If not, then she's cooking way too long 654 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: in there, way too long. But to all of you 655 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 2: who did listen to this episode, I hope I encourage you. 656 00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 2: Like I said, I will link everything down below, and 657 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 2: I pray that as you dive deeper into scripture, especially 658 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 2: into the Old Testament, that you would gain a whole 659 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 2: new understanding for the God that we get to not 660 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 2: only serve, but love and be in relationship with. That 661 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 2: is the root of has said, and it's it's incredible. 662 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 2: I'll see you guys here next week for another episode 663 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 2: on the bottom Beloved podcast, but until then, Loving Eye 664 00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 2: is Bye. For more life giving, faith based podcast just 665 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 2: like this one, check out life audio dot com, a 666 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 2: proud partner of the Beloved podcast