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Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of

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Speaker 1: a Christian Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel.

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Speaker 1: This is your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and

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Speaker 1: remarkable comebacks. In the end, this podcast is a place

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Speaker 1: for the desperate, the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

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Speaker 1: But it's also a place of hope and healing. I

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Speaker 1: know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic,

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Speaker 1: not the other way around. Today I've found sobriety after

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Speaker 1: decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I

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Speaker 1: found Jesus. My prayer is that as I interview people

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Speaker 1: just like you and just like me, along with professionals

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Speaker 1: in the fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you

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Speaker 1: will find the peace that is available to you through

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Speaker 1: Christ on the other side of whatever you're going through

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Speaker 1: and whatever addiction that might be. Because let's face it,

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Speaker 1: we're all addicted to something so welcome. Let's get radically

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Speaker 1: vulnerable as we explore what it looks like to be

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Speaker 1: on this journey of MESSI sanctification. We'll be right back

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Speaker 1: after this. What would you do if you saw the

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Speaker 1: man who was so respected by many who got up

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Speaker 1: on Sundays and preached, who led people to Jesus. What

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Speaker 1: if you saw that that man was someone secretly different

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Speaker 1: behind the scenes, and that that man was actually an

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Speaker 1: abuser and he abused your mom physically so bad that

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Speaker 1: there were bruises, what would you do? Our guest today

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Speaker 1: took that reality and turned it into a life of drugs.

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Speaker 1: He I mean everything you can imagine, and went headlong

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Speaker 1: into a life of addiction because what he saw was

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Speaker 1: severe hypocrisy from the person who represented Jesus in his life.

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Speaker 1: His name is Stephen mccorter. Now Stephen has an interesting

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Speaker 1: story outside of just the addiction. Stephen is the person

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Speaker 1: who wrote the very popular song Come Jesus, Come, that's

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Speaker 1: saying by C. C. Winans And you know he exploded

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Speaker 1: onto the scene with that song. But he has a

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Speaker 1: story that is incredible and it's a glorady centered on

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Speaker 1: what do you do when the people who you see,

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Speaker 1: or the people in your life who are supposed to

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Speaker 1: represent Jesus represent him poorly? And then what do you

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Speaker 1: do when you have a miraculous counter with Jesus yourself

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Speaker 1: and then are being called to forgive that person, and

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Speaker 1: so today's interview is really going to center around especially

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Speaker 1: the topic of forgiveness and repentance. Stephen is a fun guy.

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Speaker 1: He's a funny guy. He's very sarcastic guy. So we

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Speaker 1: laugh a lot.

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Speaker 2: In this interview.

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Speaker 1: Even though it's kind of a a dark topic at times,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a really it's a really great interview. And

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Speaker 1: I'm excited for you to get to know Stephen a

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Speaker 1: little bit better than the person that that maybe you've

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Speaker 1: you've seen or heard, but now you get a chance

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Speaker 1: to really get to know them. So without further ado,

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Speaker 1: let's talk to Stephen Micwhirr. Stephen, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast. Listen.

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Speaker 1: I know that you have done and you will do

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Speaker 1: a lot of these podcasts, but I know that this

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Speaker 1: is the one you've been looking forward to.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely no, in all seriousness, this is great. I mean,

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Speaker 2: this is if you know me, you know this is

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Speaker 2: like my I love this stuff. This is my favorite.

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Speaker 2: Like we do addiction recovery, like zeroed in addiction recovery

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Speaker 2: events across the country, Like that's it's a big heartbeat

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Speaker 2: of what we do.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I can't wait for the audience to hear

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Speaker 1: your story. It's all coming out in your new book,

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Speaker 1: Radically Restored. How knowing Jesus heals our brokenness. I had

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Speaker 1: a chance to read this book. It's a it's it's

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Speaker 1: not like long. It was a quick read. I think

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Speaker 1: I read it on one plane ride while I was

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Speaker 1: on my own book were what's that. Okay, you're a

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Speaker 1: faster you're a fast reader. No, I'm just kidding, counsel.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know when we were when we were making

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Speaker 2: the book, I was like, where's the coloring pages? Where

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Speaker 2: do I color? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean you know there's you can get. I will

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Speaker 1: say I wrote a lot in the margins, so left

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Speaker 1: lots of yeah. Yeah, but it is an incredible book

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Speaker 1: and I can't wait to get into that. But I

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Speaker 1: think before we start a I love for people to

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Speaker 1: just get to know you a little bit more. Just

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Speaker 1: give us the brief like where you live, what you do,

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Speaker 1: and and then I want to just kind of like

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Speaker 1: and then we'll jump into the song, which is.

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Speaker 2: My spirit animal is a squirrel, so you'll have to

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Speaker 2: like curve pull me. No, I'm just kidding. Drugs didn't

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Speaker 2: do that to me. Drugs probably helped with that opened

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Speaker 2: a portal to another dimension. But uh, yeah, no. I

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Speaker 2: sometimes say I want to create like a like a

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Speaker 2: landing page that like answers all these questions and I

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Speaker 2: just send it to people will go before we meet,

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Speaker 2: just watch this so you don't ask me how many

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Speaker 2: kids do I have? And where do I live? And

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Speaker 2: like all these things. I feel like I say everywhere

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Speaker 2: I go. Yeah, no, we my I'm my wife and

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Speaker 2: I we have three boys when we live in Louislle, Kentucky,

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Speaker 2: which is home. It's been home forever as far as

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Speaker 2: we can remember. And yeah, I've been doing worship music

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Speaker 2: and sharing my story for gosh so long now. Not

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Speaker 2: you know, I was I was saved in my my

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Speaker 2: early twenties. I'm in my forties now and I've been

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Speaker 2: doing this thing almost ever since. So songwriter artist right

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Speaker 2: now with partnership with Capitol Records, doing doing this and

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Speaker 2: but it's it's it's all man, I hope, it's all Kingdom.

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Speaker 2: That's what we're trying to do. And we see a

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Speaker 2: lot of people come to Christ at our events that

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Speaker 2: are primarily addiction recovery focused events, like if we do

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Speaker 2: an event we try to give away a minimum of

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Speaker 2: two hundred and four hundred seats just to addiction recovery ministries.

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Speaker 2: Our goal this year is to do four events minimum

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Speaker 2: in one each quarter that is just geared towards addiction

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Speaker 2: recovery ministries and it's free so you can just get

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Speaker 2: them out there and get them saved, connect them to

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Speaker 2: all the ministries in those areas and uh yeah, So

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Speaker 2: that that's me in a nutshell. You know. That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: And so I think, by the way, if you if

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Speaker 1: people are watching this podcast, which you can do at

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Speaker 1: the Veritas Daily dot com.

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Speaker 2: Should I put should I put like like my shirt on?

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Speaker 1: No. I was going to say, actually, and I'm in,

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Speaker 1: but I'm just like it's shirt.

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Speaker 2: If you're listening, don't be yet. We can get get

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Speaker 2: more people to watch. Sorry, as I could get your

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Speaker 2: trouble on just audio, just radio.

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Speaker 1: But I finished my I have you know, a sleeve here,

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Speaker 1: but you have some great tattoos and so I love it.

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Speaker 2: So those kind of sleeves gotcha.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, see, but I wore a long sleep.

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Speaker 2: But you were just like, I have a sleep on

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Speaker 2: my shirt here. It's like that's good John Good job.

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Speaker 1: You're wearing clothes.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yes I do. I do have a fair amount

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Speaker 2: of tattoos. This is gonna be great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and so I love that. I love that.

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Speaker 1: And your your studio setup is incredible. So that's awesome.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sorry, that's not I don't have anywhere else to

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Speaker 2: do this. It feels a little show offye, And I'm

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Speaker 2: not trying to be but that's.

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Speaker 1: It's not it's not. It's it's incredible. There's like a vibe,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: That's the idea is, you know, to create with the Lord,

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Speaker 2: and to create it have an environment that is you

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Speaker 2: know that that that's conducive.

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Speaker 1: You know, and you have a guitar sitting next to you.

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Speaker 1: I will not ask you to play.

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Speaker 2: It because yes, well that is Actually I have an

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Speaker 2: eighteen year old son who is a musician as well

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Speaker 2: and a worship leader now for like high school and stuff.

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Speaker 2: These are I think those are his. Yeah, so he

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Speaker 2: comes in here. Can you imagine you get to come

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Speaker 2: in here and do this. You're an eighteen year old,

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Speaker 2: You got a room where you can come in and

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Speaker 2: just like play music and hit record and so he's

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Speaker 2: he's really good.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure. I'm sure, it helps him in the lady department.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, who hasn't wanted a you know, a musician

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Speaker 2: for you know, a freeloader.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, exactly.

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Speaker 2: No, he's great, he's great.

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Speaker 1: So before we get to your story, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think people, if they even if they don't realize they

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Speaker 1: know you, they know you, and it is you a

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Speaker 1: song that has become I mean, it's beautiful, and you

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Speaker 1: talk about this in the book, but I would love

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Speaker 1: for you to just spend a couple of minutes explaining

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Speaker 1: the story behind Come Jesus Come, which has been recorded

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Speaker 1: by CC wine ends. A lot of people have a

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Speaker 1: version of it, and it's beautiful. Tell us the story

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Speaker 1: behind Come Jesus Come.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my wife Tara and I we've been together a

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Speaker 2: very long time since she was fourteen and I was sixteen,

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Speaker 2: so we've been together almost thirty years coming up. But

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Speaker 2: we were in our basement. It was the beginning, around

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Speaker 2: the beginning of the pandemic, and we were worshiping. I

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Speaker 2: had my Bible open, sitting on my piano, and I

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Speaker 2: was just trying to just trying to mean it, you know,

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Speaker 2: and I was at the last page of the whole Bible.

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Speaker 2: Some of the last things Jesus says in the entire Bible,

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Speaker 2: the last red text, right, and it's Jesus saying, behold,

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Speaker 2: I'm coming soon. And you know, as I read that,

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Speaker 2: I was like, man, I I'm not great at wanting

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Speaker 2: Jesus to return. I'm I'm good at like I understand

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Speaker 2: the Cross, I understand grace. This is kind of like

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Speaker 2: one of those things I've kind of pushed off to

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Speaker 2: the side and not really thought about a lot. But

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Speaker 2: as we as we read that that passage description started

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Speaker 2: to worship. Really what is essentially the first verse of

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Speaker 2: that song started coming out. You know, we were just worshiping.

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Speaker 2: We weren't. There was no like, okay, let's sit down,

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Speaker 2: lest's write a really great song that will be on

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Speaker 2: the radio. Okay, we need it to be something that

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Speaker 2: maybe a CC winer might sing or but what No,

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Speaker 2: it was like just truly like, okay, I want to

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Speaker 2: sing it till I mean it right. And I was

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Speaker 2: learning at this time what it means to truly long

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Speaker 2: for Jesus to return. And you know, we noticed like

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Speaker 2: in the New Testament, you know, it mentions or references

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Speaker 2: the Cross twenty eight times which is awesome, Thank you

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Speaker 2: Jesus for the cross, right, but it references the return

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Speaker 2: of Jesus three hundred and eighteen times. I'm not like

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Speaker 2: a deep theologian or anything, but I'm going to go

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Speaker 2: out on a limb and say it just might be important, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: And you know, for us, we started learning that when

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Speaker 2: you long for Jesus to return, you love people better

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Speaker 2: towards that day. When you long for Jesus to return,

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Speaker 2: you build things that matter more here and now, towards

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Speaker 2: that day. You're not so heavenly minded, you're no earthly good.

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Speaker 2: Colossians three says set your mind above where Christ is seated.

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Speaker 2: That whole section is actually kind of about the return

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Speaker 2: of Jesus in some way and how we live now.

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Speaker 2: It's actually set your mind above, you know, because it's like,

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Speaker 2: you're so heavenly minded, you're more earthly good, right, And

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Speaker 2: so yeah, we just started really pressing in that. It

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Speaker 2: was a really powerful, super intimate prayer that became a

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Speaker 2: very public thing. You know. I literally took the song

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Speaker 2: to a label I was with at the time. I

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Speaker 2: don't know if this is in the book or not,

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Speaker 2: but I took the song to a label, as with

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Speaker 2: the times, like, I think God's doing something with this.

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Speaker 2: This feels well. I didn't see it coming, but I

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Speaker 2: think this might be important. They dropped me from my

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Speaker 2: deal like I think that three or four days later

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Speaker 2: and pathed like they had the song in publishing, but

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Speaker 2: they didn't want to release it like that or anything.

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Speaker 2: So I just put it out like by myself in

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Speaker 2: a little introm time I had where I wasn't with

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Speaker 2: a label writing. And of course God like breathed on

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Speaker 2: it in a massive, massive way on TikTok and all

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Speaker 2: these places, and it went legitimately viral, which I didn't

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Speaker 2: I didn't make everybody sick.

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Speaker 1: But.

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Speaker 2: It went. It went out to a lot like a

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Speaker 2: lot of people saw it, like millions, millions of people

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Speaker 2: really quickly saw it. And this is not about numbers,

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Speaker 2: but to give a picture of the significance of it,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think I went from a couple of

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Speaker 2: thousand followers to like one hundred thousand followers in like

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Speaker 2: two days something crazy like that. And it just kept going.

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Speaker 2: And I noticed the real thing. The theme wasn't oh

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Speaker 2: great song, cool cool voice, blah blah blah. You know,

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Speaker 2: it was I really it was this genuine longing for

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Speaker 2: Jesus to return that felt real, you know, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: that was it. I mean, it was just this really

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Speaker 2: crazy thing that honestly, that song changed my life. Not

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Speaker 2: because it's a big song. I mean, that's helpful, but

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Speaker 2: the heart behind the song and how it changed the

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Speaker 2: way my wife and I looked at our life and

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Speaker 2: the way that we loved people, and the way that

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Speaker 2: we shared the gospel and the way that we care

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Speaker 2: about things is that we believe Jesus is coming back,

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Speaker 2: you know, like for real. So yeah, and then you know,

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Speaker 2: and then you go on you see like it's nominated

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Speaker 2: for a Grammy with like you know, CC wine and

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Speaker 2: all these kind of things that don't feel honestly, it's great,

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Speaker 2: that's awesome. It just feels kind kind of not exactly.

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Speaker 2: It's nowhere near the purpose of the song. Yeah, do

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Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying? Like, it's fine, and it's great,

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Speaker 2: I'm so grateful, but it's a very very weird thing

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Speaker 2: to experience this very intimate moment between you and the

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Speaker 2: Lord become this thing that's like an industry thing.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of weird, but it's also just beautiful.

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Speaker 1: What was your reaction when you found out CEC was

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Speaker 1: going to record it? And why was that reaction screaming

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Speaker 1: like a twelve year old girl.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know that it was that. It was

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Speaker 2: more you know, people, you know, it's great, She's if

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Speaker 2: you were to ask me, is there any one person

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Speaker 2: you could think of that you would want to sing

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Speaker 2: this song in the entire Christian music industry? I don't

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Speaker 2: know that I could have thought of anyone other than her.

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Speaker 2: So that's kind of crazy, you know. I know that

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Speaker 2: everybody's like, oh, I hope CEC want to does it

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Speaker 2: my song, But for me, it was kind of like

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Speaker 2: the heart of the song and who sings it and

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Speaker 2: all that. It's like it's got to feel kind of

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Speaker 2: something about her makes it feel genuine and and so

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Speaker 2: that's best special. That's all I know. I mean, for me,

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Speaker 2: it was just kind of like, oh, okay, cool, you

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Speaker 2: know that's awesome. I don't think there's again, I'm not twenty,

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Speaker 2: I'm in my forties. I don't have many of those

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Speaker 2: like oh my gosh moments anymore. Right, I'm just being

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Speaker 2: honest with you, Like it's kind of more of a

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Speaker 2: this thing is very fast. This thing called life goes

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Speaker 2: very very very fast. And again I come back to

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Speaker 2: this return to Jesus. Think that the whole idea of

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Speaker 2: the song is not like this thing. This thing called

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Speaker 2: life is super fast and Jesus is returning. So what

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Speaker 2: is the most important metric? Is it that I want

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Speaker 2: a double order, a Grammy or nominations or whatever? Those

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Speaker 2: are great. I know I'm not like one of those

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Speaker 2: guys that like, go, you can't do that. No, I'm

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Speaker 2: good with that. That's great, But one day those aren't

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Speaker 2: gonna be the things that matter. I'm not just saying

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Speaker 2: this to sound like I'm saying the right Christian things

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Speaker 2: and people go, oh, Steven's real spiritual. That's not That's

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Speaker 2: not it. I'm saying this because I mean it. I'm like,

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Speaker 2: the only things that matter on this in this world

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Speaker 2: are do I love Jesus and mean it for real?

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Speaker 2: And do I love people and mean it for real?

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Speaker 2: And those two things will be the only things that

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Speaker 2: I'm really gonna look back and go ooh, Okay, I

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Speaker 2: think I did that. Well, that's it.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is a great segue because you

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Speaker 1: understand that more and better than I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people because of what you have gone through, and

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Speaker 1: especially when you talk about loving people, right, I think

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I was blown away by

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Speaker 1: in your book and in your writing, I talk a

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Speaker 1: lot about radical vulnerability, right when I talk about my

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Speaker 1: own story and the power that our stories have, and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a big deal. It's a big deal to me. Authenticity.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you you have that and to.

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Speaker 3: My chagrin, to my sometimes I love it because you

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Speaker 3: talk about your dad, right, And so when you talk

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Speaker 3: about loving people, it comes from a place of seeing

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Speaker 3: an example of what it looks like to be inauthentic.

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Speaker 1: And so I would love for you to walk us

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Speaker 1: through your story of addiction, and especially where it starts

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Speaker 1: with seeing your dad. It was a very popular minister,

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Speaker 1: and then what you saw him doing behind the scenes

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Speaker 1: and how that really jaded you and and kind of

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Speaker 1: led to this life of addiction.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I'll just say this point blank and then

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Speaker 2: get into it, like my dad was abusive with my

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Speaker 2: mom behind the scenes, right, and was a getting up

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Speaker 2: preaching about Jesus. You know, some years back I was

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Speaker 2: at an event before getting the story just real quick.

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Speaker 2: Some years back, I was at an event, and so

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Speaker 2: I guess an old friend of my dad's and my

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Speaker 2: mom's was there, who's an older gentleman, you know, And

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Speaker 2: I shared my story and honestly, a bunch of people

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Speaker 2: got saved. It was awesome. Has nothing to do with me,

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Speaker 2: it's Jesus. It was a really powerful night. And at

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Speaker 2: the end of the night, this person came out to

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Speaker 2: me and said, I can't believe that you disgraced your

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Speaker 2: father like that in front of all these people and

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Speaker 2: said all those things. And you know, my first reaction

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Speaker 2: was like, oh, yeah, well, let me tell you something.

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't. I didn't I tried, I didn't do that.

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Speaker 2: I just said, look, it's what really happened. And I

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Speaker 2: believe the Lord's going to use it, like in a

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Speaker 2: really awesome way that you know, that's gonna honor Jesus.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's hard for people sometimes because we

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Speaker 2: do get caught up in protecting our legacy. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: that's honestly, that's where we start to make a lot

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Speaker 2: of the big mistakes. That's where in au this inauthenticity

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Speaker 2: comes in. If that's a wor I may I think

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Speaker 2: it is inauthentic. Yes, okay, but I think it's this. Okay,

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Speaker 2: if people find out, it'll ruin my reputation. And sometimes

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Speaker 2: we'll say, but if it ruins my reputation, it'll hurt

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Speaker 2: Jesus's reputation. Don't pretend like that's what it is. Because

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Speaker 2: if you really believe in Jesus, he can take care

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Speaker 2: of himself. And he's doing a good job, you know,

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Speaker 2: So the best thing you can do is be honest

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Speaker 2: and let people see just how big his grace is.

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Speaker 1: You know. But that's a word, especially because I have

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Speaker 1: members in my family who have not been here with

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Speaker 1: me telling.

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Speaker 2: Me yes, I bet sure, yeah, you know, it comes

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Speaker 2: with the territory. Boy, the talks I've had to have

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Speaker 2: with people just doing this book, and this is like

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Speaker 2: years and years now, and it's still like, man, hey, guys,

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Speaker 2: I've got to do this. This is not something I

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Speaker 2: want to do. Yes, nobody goes, I want to write

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Speaker 2: a very long paper, you know. I want to write

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Speaker 2: a forty thousand word paper. You know. It's like, uh,

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Speaker 2: I think when I turned the book in, by the way,

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Speaker 2: it was like twenty thousand first time, and they were like,

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Speaker 2: this is great. We're gonna need like twenty thousand more words. Like.

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, that's where I thought it was

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Speaker 2: gonna be the rest. It would be a colored book.

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Speaker 2: Everybody like can pop up.

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Speaker 1: You know, we'll be right back after this.

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Speaker 2: But uh yeah. So I grew up My dad was

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Speaker 2: an evangelist, traveling evangelist. I would watch him get preach

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Speaker 2: about Jesus. People would get saved by the way because

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Speaker 2: God's good and his grace is amazing, and but behind

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Speaker 2: closed doors again, I would see my dad physically abuse

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Speaker 2: my mom. So I grew up with that and I

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Speaker 2: just went, Okay, if God's real, he's not good. I

380
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Speaker 2: don't want anything to do with him or this Jesus guy.

381
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Speaker 2: And I begin down this path of crazy rebellion where

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Speaker 2: my heavenly father and my earthly father became the villains

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Speaker 2: in my story. Right, and I was eleven years old,

384
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Speaker 2: I was smoking, drinking all that kind of stuff, you know,

385
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Speaker 2: marijuana by the time I was fifteen, cocaine pills, I'm

386
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Speaker 2: selling drugs, you name it. By seventeen, I'm a crystal

387
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Speaker 2: meth addict. I'm using every day for many years to come.

388
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Speaker 2: During this time, I'm the guy who hates Jesus, hates Christians,

389
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Speaker 2: would cuss you out if you mentioned his name around me, right,

390
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Speaker 2: or would try to because I told you I was

391
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Speaker 2: a methadict. You know, I weighed like one hundred pounds,

392
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Speaker 2: so I threw my whole body at you. You might

393
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Speaker 2: have got a paper cut, you know, saying but I said,

394
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Speaker 2: you know so anyways, people, but during this time, people

395
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Speaker 2: were like praying for me, like legit, praying for me.

396
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 2: And somebody came and gave me this book called The

397
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Speaker 2: Kasher Christ by Least Drouble. And this is what I say,

398
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Speaker 2: is the most miraculous part of my story, because I

399
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Speaker 2: didn't like cuss anybody out, you know, or cause a scene,

400
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 2: kick him out of my house. I was just like, cool, whatever,

401
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 2: give me this stupid book. Right fast forward, It's three

402
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,879
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning. I literally have drugs on the

403
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Speaker 2: side table next to me in this bedroom. I'm in

404
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: bed reading this book about Jesus, you know, And there's

405
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 2: not a cigarette in the ashtray right something else, and

406
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 2: there's like there's like no music playing softly in the corner.

407
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 2: It is the most offensive to most traditional Christians and

408
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Speaker 2: the most improbable environment for somebody to come to Jesus.

409
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Speaker 2: But in this place, I met the like the I

410
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 2: encountered like the real deal presence of the Lord. Like

411
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Speaker 2: I knew he was in the room, right. What's it?

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Speaker 1: That?

413
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Speaker 2: Just like a crazy awareness Like now it's like I

414
00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: know he's in the room, right. But in that moment,

415
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,919
Speaker 2: it was like, yeah, you know that. I put it

416
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Speaker 2: like this. You know that thing where you someone's there,

417
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Speaker 2: you don't see them, but you know they're in the room.

418
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Speaker 2: You know what I'm talking about, Like you go, okay,

419
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Speaker 2: and then you find out like your wife's been standing

420
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Speaker 2: in the corner the whole time, but you know, it's

421
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,160
Speaker 2: like it's it was like that, but it was it

422
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 2: was more overwhelming. It was more And this is gonna

423
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 2: sound so trite for so many people, like they're gonna

424
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Speaker 2: be like, that's the answer. It was like love, man,

425
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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know what to say, you know

426
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Speaker 2: what I'm saying. It was like that's not right. It

427
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 2: should be judgment, it should be disappointment, but it was love,

428
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Speaker 2: you know. And I just remember being like God, I

429
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Speaker 2: want to give you my life. I want to quit

430
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,680
Speaker 2: all this addiction, all this darkness, all this anger, all

431
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,440
Speaker 2: this depression, all this I've known for so long. God,

432
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: I want to, but there's absolutely no way because at

433
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 2: this point in my story, I remember like he had

434
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: been over eleven years that I'd been like in a

435
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: crazy addiction. You know, that's not something you just like

436
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,400
Speaker 2: one day, go I'm good later. And I was like, God,

437
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 2: I want to. There's no way. I can't even remember

438
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: what I'm like, what it's like to be like a

439
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: little kid and just be happy without taking something to

440
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: make me feel happy. You know what I'm talking about, right, yea,

441
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 2: and so, But in that moment, I felt like I

442
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: was just like, Lord, I can't And I know you

443
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: knew I meant it, you know, because I had this

444
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: thought that I knew wasn't mine. Because again, when you know,

445
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 2: when you're in that like crazy place, a will power,

446
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: really strong willpower, is not what got you there. You

447
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 2: know what I'm saying. It's like you were you like

448
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 2: easily easily you swayed. So I had this thought that

449
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,119
Speaker 2: I knew it was not mine, and it was what

450
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 2: I believe the Lord was saying. It was Stephen, you

451
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 2: won't do it, I'll do it, And I didn't know

452
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 2: it at the time, but that was Ephesians two eight.

453
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 2: You're saved by grace. This isn't something you can boast about,

454
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 2: but it's a work of God. He does it right now.

455
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: I also learned later that there is something that we

456
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 2: can do that I did that night, and it was

457
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 2: this Jesus say is in John six twenty nine. He says,

458
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 2: the only work the Father asks of you is to believe.

459
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: And Paul says this a lot throughout the epistles, right,

460
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: And that's what I did in that moment. Like when

461
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 2: I heard the word Steve and you won't do it,

462
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: I'll do it, I went, I believe, Yeah, okay, you're

463
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 2: gonna do it, Like I believed. I came into agreement

464
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: with it, and I believed it like I believe I'm

465
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: breathing air right now. Like it was that kind of certainty,

466
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: do you know what I mean? Like and I fell

467
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 2: to my knees, bugger's coming out of my nose, ugly

468
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 2: crying right, gave my life to Jesus. I knew enough

469
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 2: watching stuff growing up in church, kid that I can't know,

470
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: but even then it didnt matter. I just knew it

471
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: was real and I was just talking I was like,

472
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 2: I'm done, I'm yours. This is it. I was my

473
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 2: wife fiance or like you know girlfriend fiance at the time,

474
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 2: was in the bed and she woke up to me

475
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 2: like freaking out on the floor and my life to Jesus.

476
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 2: She was like, what is going on? I think? You know.

477
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 2: I was like, I gave my life to you know.

478
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 2: She was like, are you high? What's I gotta do

479
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: with anything? But anyways, I do remember telling her literally

480
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,719
Speaker 2: the next morning, I was like, I am going to

481
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: move out. And we're engaged at this time, so don't

482
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 2: give me a medal. I think we were getting married

483
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: in like, you know, a couple like four or five

484
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,399
Speaker 2: months or something like that, not even that, so but

485
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: I was like, we can't, you know, do this and

486
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: we're so get married. I'm gonna go. And I slept

487
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 2: on a friend's couch and I think that guy was like,

488
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: are you high? You know, what are you doing here?

489
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: Because I gave my life to Jesus, you know, I'm

490
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 2: on the couch. And anyways, I quit everything, man, literally overnight,

491
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 2: which sounds insane now when I say that, like, people go, wow,

492
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: you couit Crystal method. That's that's probably dangerous, and I

493
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 2: was like, no, Uh. The hardest thing was quitting smoking

494
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: cigarettes overnight because I smoked two packs a day every

495
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 2: day for eleven years. If you've ever been to an

496
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:16,679
Speaker 2: alcoholics anonymous meeting, one thing is going on. Maybe nobody's drinking,

497
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 2: everybody's smoking.

498
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: I call this. I call it the great cloud of

499
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: witnesses when you walk out, when you walk out of

500
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: a meeting, the Great Cloud witnesses.

501
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of smoking. So God's real, y'all.

502
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: So just so you know, but it was. Trust me.

503
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: He had a lot of screwed up things with me

504
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 2: to work on for years to come, besides the consumption

505
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: of you know, narcotics and you know alcohol and you

506
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 2: name it. But I always tell people because people, you know,

507
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: going around sharing addiction recovery ministries all over and doing

508
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,719
Speaker 2: all this stuff. I always have to tell people because

509
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 2: that can be discouraging. You know. You hear that and

510
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: you go, well, that's good because it didn't happen like

511
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: that for me, or people say, you can't say that,

512
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: that's not true. That's not how it works. It's like,

513
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 2: what do you want me to do? Lie? You want

514
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 2: me to lie? You want me. Is that what you

515
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 2: want me to I just gave you this whole story

516
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: about how God's real and all this stuff. You want

517
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 2: me to lie about this part so you feel better.

518
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: But I do say this in the Gospels, Jesus never

519
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: healed anyone the same way twice, because every story has

520
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 2: a purpose. And if it takes six times and you

521
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: fall defeated Jesus and you mean it, He's going to

522
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: use your story in the most powerful way, probably even

523
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: a more more powerful way than mine. And so anyways, yeah,

524
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 2: that that was. That was that. I think I became

525
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 2: a I think I got a job as a worship

526
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 2: leader like a year later. And uh and we could

527
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: talk more about like my dad and like that stuff,

528
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: but yeah, I had a job. I think I got

529
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: a job as a work as a worship leader like

530
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: a year later. And I always say, never underestimate how

531
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: hard up a pastor is for worship leaders, like ex

532
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 2: meth anicts will take you perfect. You could sing Bertie,

533
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 2: you know. That was that was it. And I was

534
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 2: in like metal bands, dude, I was screaming my head

535
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 2: off like all that. So I went from raw to

536
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 2: ACNMI imagine, you know, what I mean. So it was

537
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: like it was pretty pretty wild.

538
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of like some of those other

539
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: songs around that time that you were probably seeing.

540
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: That was the newest song that I got to sing

541
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 2: around that time. That was like the hip new song.

542
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: And now they're making movies about the olden days of

543
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: that song song No Show to the Lord.

544
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 2: I still love all those songs, though, Like that's because

545
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 2: I sing those songs, like when I got saved, I

546
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 2: was singing you know those songs. You know, yeah, there

547
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: is none like you you know, they call those things.

548
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 2: So they those those songs, those hold the sweet spot.

549
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 2: And because they was hold the sweet spot for when

550
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 2: I got saved, I can see why people are like

551
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: that about hymns because they maybe they got saved when

552
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 2: those songs were the songs they were singing. So there's

553
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: like this, you.

554
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, okay, so did you ever relapse? Was there

555
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: ever any time that you went back or anything like that.

556
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: No? No, And that's not a brag, that's a I forgot.

557
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 2: It is not for me. Every single friend that I

558
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 2: thought was a friend disappeared like just taking them like

559
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: Enoch y'all. You know what I'm saying they were gone

560
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: because they weren't really my friends. And that's okay. And

561
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 2: some of them got saved later in life. Most of

562
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: them did not. Most of them, unfortunately you're in prison

563
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: or dead and that's the truth. Most most of them dead,

564
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 2: odeed and uh yeah, So it's kind of sad, but

565
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: it's also you know, God still was using it all.

566
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: What do you what do you think? And maybe this

567
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: is a good transition to your dad. But you know

568
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: when I when I finally was like, okay, I got

569
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: to get this under control, Laura, I'm giving myself over

570
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: to you. You know, I have this story of hitting

571
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: rock bottom on a beach in Miami at one am

572
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: in the morning, and yeah, my wife next day saying like,

573
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 1: I don't care if you never drink again. I want

574
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: you to get to the root of why. Right when

575
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: you think about your roots, what are those things that

576
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 1: you felt like were kind of underlying that were that

577
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: were shoving you, that the devil was using. Was it

578
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: the stuff with your dad? Was it escapeism? What was

579
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: what was the stuff that was that was drawing you

580
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: to the life.

581
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 2: I think a big part of it was kind of

582
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 2: like a middle finger towards my parents, my dad mostly,

583
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: which if you read the book you'll kind of see why. Right,

584
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 2: there's a lot of like just this is your fault

585
00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. You know, I don't think I knew

586
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 2: that then, Like you know what I'm saying, this is

587
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 2: me doing my best to make sense of it from

588
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 2: this perspective, because to be honest with you, you want to

589
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: have this really great book reason why you did what

590
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: you did and blah blah blah. I don't know that

591
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: I have one other than I just wanted to destroy

592
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: myself as much as possible and didn't care and I

593
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: wanted some I don't know, I think it was there

594
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: was a numbing to all that, Like that was a

595
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 2: huge part of my life. That was crazy. But also

596
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: you know, growing up in the early nineties, you know, uh,

597
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: you know, it's like it was a rough area that

598
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: I lived in. It was the country though you know,

599
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: everybody thinks all the bad stuff happens in the city.

600
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: Now it's the trailer parks, bro in the middle of nowhere.

601
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: Those are the places you want to stay out of. Yeah,

602
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 2: we know that now after shows like Justified, right, Yeah,

603
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: it's but the truth is, yeah, just like everywhere I went,

604
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 2: that stuff was there, and I was like, yeah, I'll

605
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 2: do it. Absolutely, give it to me. You know. That

606
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 2: was that was basically it. And it just kept going

607
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 2: and kept going and kept going to the point where

608
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm cool if I die, because I'm

609
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 2: not going to quit. Yeah.

610
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: So I think that's important and I appreciate you sharing

611
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: that because you know, we have a lot of people

612
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 1: that listen to this podcast, and I think my goal

613
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 1: in hearing stories and telling stories is that people would

614
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: see themselves, right, And so I know there's people out

615
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: there who, like I just wanted to watch the world burn, right,

616
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: Like I didn't necessarily have this X Y or Z

617
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: or whatnot. I just wanted to watch the world burn

618
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: and you know, give that middle finger to my parents

619
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 1: or to my upbringing or to whatever. So so thanks

620
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: for thanks for sharing that. I think the idea of

621
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 1: forgiveness is a huge part of your book, and I

622
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,439
Speaker 1: I want to talk about that because I know I've

623
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: had people that I've had to forgive in my life,

624
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: you know, kicking and screaming begrudgingly. Yeah, and there's people

625
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: those same people sometimes I still have to like continually

626
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: forgive them. But you talk about forgiving your dad for

627
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: what he did to your mom. And what's interesting is

628
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: as you tell the story in your book, like the

629
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:31,839
Speaker 1: first time that you muster up all this you muster

630
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: up all this courage, and you go and you talk

631
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: to your dad and and and and you know it's

632
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: not this Hallmark movie like he barely responds, and so

633
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: tell that story and then how you kind of even

634
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,359
Speaker 1: moved through and passed that to continually forgive him.

635
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: No, yeah, you know, I think it's it's interesting how

636
00:35:54,920 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 2: how hard it is for us to forgive, Like we

637
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 2: think we've done it right, we say the words God,

638
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: I forgive them. And by the way, let me just

639
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 2: say just real quick, this isn't a correction to you.

640
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,759
Speaker 2: You're you're fine. I was just gonna say I don't

641
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 2: think I could tell ask tell my dad forgive him

642
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 2: for what he did to my mom. That's between him

643
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: and her. But I can. I can forgive him for

644
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: the trauma I went through seeing it, you know, and

645
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 2: how he never owned up to it or talk you

646
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 2: know what I mean? Like, you know, but I think

647
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: forgiveness is one of the most important, one of the

648
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 2: most important aspect of what it means to be like Jesus,

649
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 2: to follow Jesus, to be an actual Christian. Yeah, it's

650
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: like for God so loved the world when we were

651
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,600
Speaker 2: at our most disgusting, most horrible, most to pray you

652
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 2: at your very worst. The you behind that door that

653
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: has all the stuff you're like, don't look in there.

654
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: If you did, you'll see the gross, horrible, disgusting, deplorable

655
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 2: thing I did, and you'll never talk to me again.

656
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: Jesus kicks that door down and says, I want her,

657
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 2: I want him. This is the offensive reality of the Gospel. Yes, okay,

658
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 2: because and it bothers us, because it doesn't bother us

659
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 2: till we really think about what it means for us.

660
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: Like we love it when it's us on the receiving end,

661
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: but when we have to do it with other people,

662
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: it feels wrong to us, like I can't you can't

663
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: do that. I can't tell you how many people have

664
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 2: read my book and said, I was really challenged by

665
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 2: the forgiving your dad part. Like I had to ask myself,

666
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 2: is this okay that he did this, that I did that,

667
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: you know, is it okay? It's not just okay, it's

668
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: literally the Gospel, Yeah, help us forgive our enemies, right,

669
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: forgive our trust passes as we forgive those who trespass

670
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,720
Speaker 2: against us. Is one of the things that Jesus teaches

671
00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 2: us to pray daily, like crazy, right, So my I

672
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 2: go to see my dad because once I got saved,

673
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 2: which is great because we get saved and we're like,

674
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: there we go, we did it all right, Well that's

675
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,879
Speaker 2: just kind of like, yeah, you're saved. But now God

676
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:27,719
Speaker 2: wants to do some really awesome, exciting Kingdom stuff through you,

677
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 2: and we think, oh, it's going to be going to

678
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 2: the nations. How many times have you had somebody say

679
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,359
Speaker 2: that to you, You're going to the nations? I don't

680
00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 2: know what. I was like, can I can? I not

681
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: because I don't love traveling all that much. Can I

682
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 2: do it?

683
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: Well?

684
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 2: Now I can do it for my phone, but uh, anyways,

685
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 2: you know, I think probably some of the real work

686
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 2: is the forgiving. That's the Kingdom advancing to your life too.

687
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 2: And so my wife said to me at the time,

688
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: my finance said, I think you need to go, you know,

689
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: forgive your dad. And I knew she was right, and

690
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 2: I was like, yes, I I talked to her about it.

691
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 2: I was like, I'm feeling this thing to do, this impossible,

692
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 2: horrible thing that I do not want to do that

693
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 2: I think is unimaginable. Like even imagining it and doing

694
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 2: it made me physically sick, Like I thought I was

695
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: gonna have a panic attack, right, And I'm not exactly

696
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 2: the most emotionally stable person at the moment because I

697
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 2: just quit all these drugs. Like think about the reality

698
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: of like it being in that moment, right.

699
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

700
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 2: Now this is like a few weeks later. But I

701
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: go to my dad. I pull the driveway. I mean,

702
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 2: I could barely walk in the house, it was so hard.

703
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: And I go into this room where he's sitting in

704
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 2: his recliner, you know, quinn essential dad recliner, and I'm

705
00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,919
Speaker 2: just like, you know, it is the most awkward, unmagical

706
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: and Disney like moment ever. There's no like beam of

707
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 2: light coming in through the window or a bird on

708
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 2: my shoulder and beautiful music playing. I'm just looking at

709
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: my dad and I say, a, Dad, I forgive you

710
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 2: for all the things that I saw growing up that

711
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: you you know, put our family through, ball all of it.

712
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 2: I say it all, and then he just looks at

713
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 2: me like all of reality is falling apart, and he

714
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 2: just looked at me like a deer in headlights and goes, uh, okay,

715
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 2: thank you, you know, and I just walk out of

716
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: the room. I mean like I left, like I stole something.

717
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 2: I got my car, I drove home. It was the

718
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: most awkward, like so like nobody would put that in

719
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: a movie, you know what I mean. And I but

720
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 2: I knew God had done something going what I could see.

721
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 2: And sometime later my wife ended up saying, hey, I

722
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 2: feel like the Lord wants soon to be wife wants

723
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 2: the Lord to but I wants your dad to baptize us.

724
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my gosh, this is crazy. Of course,

725
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 2: onto that, on our way to that baptism with my

726
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: dad at this little church, my wife and I got

727
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 2: in the most brutal argument fight we've ever been in.

728
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 2: It just like constant screaming, like and then we're like, okay,

729
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 2: God's we think, like God's up something here and like

730
00:40:57,840 --> 00:40:59,959
Speaker 2: the enemy's trying to keep us from doing something really,

731
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: so let's where we're gonna go. So we go. We

732
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: have baptized. Is great. My mom goes on to tell me,

733
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 2: actually that night, my dad wept all night after baptizing us,

734
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 2: like uncontrollably couldn't stop weeping, don't you know whatever. But

735
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: I go fast forward my wife again, she started to

736
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: become a problem. She's like fiance at the time. Again,

737
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 2: she's like, I feel like the Lord wants your dad

738
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: to perform our wedding ceremony. My dad ends up performing

739
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:34,239
Speaker 2: our wedding ceremony. And you know, we had had in life.

740
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 2: I don't think you know on his my dad now

741
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: is passed from cancer twelve years ago something like that.

742
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 2: And one of the things that I learned early on

743
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: with my dad was like, you know where Peter says too,

744
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: he says to Jesus, he says, hey, how often should

745
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 2: I forgive somebody that's wrong being or whatever? He says

746
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 2: seven times to Jesus, and he just says, like now

747
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:06,560
Speaker 2: seven d times seven times, like so like forever, yeah,

748
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 2: like seven is actually the number of perfections. So it's

749
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 2: like perfect complete, yes, forever, right, and just you just

750
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: do it, just is. And I really didn't understand that

751
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 2: until my dad passed away. I was in the hospital

752
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 2: room with my dad and he was in if you've

753
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 2: ever been with somebody in hospice right where they're there.

754
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 2: He's basically in a coma. He is in a coma

755
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: right now. He's not he's not awake, he's not talking,

756
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: he's just barely breathing, right And it's that time where

757
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 2: people are like saying things to him, like he can't respond,

758
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,960
Speaker 2: but the doctors are like, tell them, it's okay, you

759
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 2: can go now, that kind of stuff, so they'll let go.

760
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,359
Speaker 2: It's a very difficult thing, right. Well, we've been doing

761
00:42:56,400 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 2: this for days, and I remember being in this and

762
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 2: my mom gets up and walks out of the room

763
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:06,320
Speaker 2: and I'm alone with my dad and I'm watching him

764
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: barely be able to breathe, and I just go over

765
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 2: to him one last time. And at this point, I'd

766
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: forgiven him so many times I can't even tell you, you know,

767
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 2: like him and I had maybe one talk at one

768
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 2: point that felt a little real, but still he never

769
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: went in and talked about it, you know. Like fully,

770
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,280
Speaker 2: I think part of his world felt like it would

771
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 2: just fall apart if he did. And that's not a

772
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 2: good thing, but it is what it is. I just

773
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 2: remember watching my dad barely be able to breathe. I

774
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 2: lean in and I tell him, Dad, I love you

775
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 2: and I really do forgive you. And right then and

776
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 2: right there, he took his last breath and left this world.

777
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 2: And in that moment, I was like, Okay, that's I

778
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: forgave him one last time on this earth. But it's

779
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,760
Speaker 2: like the going to be like seventy sons eleven times

780
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 2: million and sevens that I'm gonna keep doing it. But

781
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 2: it was real, and there's something powerful about it that happens.

782
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 2: I believe there's something on the other side of forgiveness

783
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 2: that it's like I remember somebody talking about how it's

784
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 2: like a boulder that's holding back water, like the the

785
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 2: the idea of that, it's it's literally blocking something God

786
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: wants to do in your life. Right, So yeah, and

787
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 2: I believe some of the most there's things that happen

788
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: in the spirit that you can't see, but also things

789
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 2: that are going to happen in the world around you

790
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 2: you're gonna see that are going to be so important

791
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 2: for you, for your kids, for your family, for your friends,

792
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 2: for the people around you, just by you legitimately, Because

793
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: forgiveness is about a debt, a legitimate debt that someone

794
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 2: owes you, or you owe somebody Now, if you're the

795
00:44:55,840 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 2: one who is owed the debt, you have the ability

796
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: to rip that thing up like Jesus did and throw

797
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 2: it away because the unforgiveness isn't punishing them, it's punishing you.

798
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this. Yes, it's like what

799
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 1: that classic line is like, it's like drinking poison and

800
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: expecting it to hurt the other person. You know, That's

801
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: what unforgiveness is.

802
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, but on the other end of that, when

803
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: you do that legitimately, and I'm not saying go to

804
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 2: the person and be like I just want you to know,

805
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 2: Like with my dad it was different, but like you

806
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: know what I mean, like you've you've got Sometimes it's

807
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 2: not always going to the person who I just want

808
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 2: you to know, I forgive you. You can do that

809
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 2: such a way. Yeah, it's like no, it's gotta be

810
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 2: yeah on your part too, right. Yeah, But it's it's

811
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 2: there's some man, it's it's one of the most powerful

812
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 2: kingdom things you can do. Man. Some people need to

813
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,799
Speaker 2: do it with a pastor that's wrong with them. Some

814
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: people need to do it with a husband, a wife,

815
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 2: a friend, a child, And it's it's there's like a

816
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 2: spouse or a sibling. You know where you've just got

817
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 2: to go. You know what, Jesus, I don't have to

818
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 2: be in relationship with them, we don't have to be

819
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: best friends, but I do have to actually love them. Yeah,

820
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 2: like that something I posted the other day was Jesus

821
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: one hundred percent loves your greatest enemy. That's crazy and

822
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 2: it's hard for us to like actually love somebody. That

823
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: doesn't mean you got to be in relationship with them,

824
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 2: but you do. You do have to love them somehow.

825
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,799
Speaker 1: You have this, You have this line in the book

826
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:44,960
Speaker 1: that I just want to read. It says, after all

827
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 1: my dad did. You may be offended by the notion

828
00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: of my forgiving him. I don't blame you. I was

829
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: offended to But God doesn't offer grace only to those

830
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 1: who deserve it. And I think, like, that's that's a

831
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: money line. And I think for us who have experienced

832
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:13,880
Speaker 1: addiction like that, that that's real. And and and yet

833
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 1: you can you can be a recovering addict and yet

834
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: still have people like that you don't forgive. And it's like,

835
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: come on, you do not realize grace has been given

836
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: to you. You have to give it to other people.

837
00:47:26,360 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that forgiveness means condoning. Sure, absolutely,

838
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:36,439
Speaker 2: it's very important. You're not condoning it. Yes, you know. Anyways, Yeah,

839
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 2: it's a lot, man, it's so much. I wrote a

840
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,839
Speaker 2: book about it exactly. You should go get.

841
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: It's called Radically Restored. There's this other line, speaking of

842
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: great lines in the book. I want to I want

843
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,439
Speaker 1: to read this one. I have it. Let me see

844
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: here you talk about where.

845
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: Go ahead.

846
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:01,720
Speaker 1: I'm not going to just start to fill the gap.

847
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 2: I know, don't fill the gap.

848
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: Okay, you have this line, Steven As I'm trying to

849
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:15,359
Speaker 1: compliment your great, great break great book. It says, I

850
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 1: wonder if broken people break things, do healed people heal things?

851
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: And I'd love to kind of land the plane of

852
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: the interview talking about what does it look like to

853
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: be someone who has healed to help others heal? And

854
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: what is your message to those who are broken right

855
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,320
Speaker 1: now who are listening to this and and don't feel

856
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: like maybe, man, you know, but you don't get it.

857
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:48,000
Speaker 1: You don't know what I've done, or you don't know

858
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: what you know. I'm an elder at my church. I

859
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: can't I can't. I can't you know, talk about my

860
00:48:54,320 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: porn and alcohol addiction mistake? What is your message to them?

861
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:04,880
Speaker 2: It's a very old timey word that has become very

862
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 2: taboo in the church, and it's called repentance. Now you

863
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 2: hear that word, and like everybody in church, you probably

864
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 2: internally think, uh, oh, I'm gonna be in trouble. Everybody's

865
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 2: gonna find out the terrible thing I did. I'm gonna

866
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 2: be canceled. Everything's gonna I'm gonna lose everything, My whole

867
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 2: life's gonna fall apart. But in the Bible, every time

868
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 2: repentance is mentioned, there's like a blessing attached to it

869
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 2: because the word repentance literally need to like turn and

870
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 2: go another direction like repent. If you watch like British

871
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,800
Speaker 2: arm like military, when they when they're doing their marching

872
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 2: and they go about face you turn around, they say

873
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 2: repent to turn and go the other direction. And yeah,

874
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,200
Speaker 2: So like every time it's mentioned, like when Jesus or

875
00:49:58,239 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 2: when in the Old Testament where it says in dude,

876
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,240
Speaker 2: he goes, if my people who are calling my people

877
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 2: will turn from their wicked ways and turn to me,

878
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,719
Speaker 2: I will hear their prayers and I will heal their land. Right,

879
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 2: there's like this blessing. And then when Peter is preaching,

880
00:50:13,360 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 2: he says, repent so that this is John. This is

881
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 2: Acts three, nineteen twenty. One of things he says is

882
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 2: repent so that the time of refreshment will come from

883
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,319
Speaker 2: the Lord. There's something awesome. I'm not saying you go

884
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 2: on YouTube. I'm not saying you know, you jump up

885
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 2: in front of your church and go, hey, everybody, nobody

886
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:35,359
Speaker 2: knows this yet, but you know. But I say you

887
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 2: go to the people that love you, that you trust.

888
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 2: If you are a pastor, go to your elders. Don't

889
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:48,359
Speaker 2: wait to get caught. That's such a At that point,

890
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 2: you're not repenting, You're just doing damage control. But go

891
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 2: and be like honest and be like, look, I think

892
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 2: there's something on the other side of that that's really

893
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 2: important or really beautiful for you. And it's part of you,

894
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: your healing, in you moving on because here's the truth.

895
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 2: One of the things I say in the book is like,

896
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:12,520
Speaker 2: the real you is the you fully alive in Jesus right,

897
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 2: like fully alive, the you free of depression. I'm not

898
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 2: saying perfect. I'm just saying like, like legitimately the you

899
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 2: that's it's like, alive is the you that's you don't

900
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 2: have to be holy, you get to be you don't

901
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 2: have to be free from addiction. You get to be

902
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 2: free from addiction. You know, it's like understanding this because

903
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: the you fully alive is the you God spoke before

904
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 2: the foundations of the earth, right, It's the real you.

905
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 2: And you go, oh, well, I know who I am.

906
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 2: I've figured me out. I've lived long enough, and i

907
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:47,919
Speaker 2: know what I've got to do. No, no, no, The real

908
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 2: you is the you fully alive in Jesus. And that

909
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:56,720
Speaker 2: person is not scared about what people think. That person

910
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 2: only cares about what Jesus thinks and how to love

911
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 2: people well. And I believe part of the healing process

912
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 2: is those two things I said earlier. It's like you

913
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: really start to go, I trust you. I believe you,

914
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 2: and I trust you. You're not here to ruin my life.

915
00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 2: You're here to make me more alive. And I don't

916
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:26,800
Speaker 2: want to just like out of fear, hide and try

917
00:52:26,840 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: to protect something because that's my reward. That's it, And

918
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 2: that's eventually going to fall apart because everything that is

919
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 2: hidden will be laid bare, look at history, look at

920
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 2: every pastor every person. Nothing good has ever come from hiding.

921
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 2: And I know that fear tells you just hide, just

922
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 2: just hide it, just hide it. It's gonna go away

923
00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 2: or whatever. It won't. But Jesus actually can heal, He

924
00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 2: actually can redeem and restore the thing that you think

925
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,360
Speaker 2: is impossible because you're looking at it through the eyes

926
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: of a judging people instead of the eyes of a

927
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: gracefulled God, of a God who loves you. It is

928
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: bigger than all these other things. It's bigger than the

929
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 2: success of your legacy or your your ministry, not his ministry,

930
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:20,640
Speaker 2: your ministry. It's bigger than that.

931
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,240
Speaker 1: And so you write this. You say throughout the Bible,

932
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,920
Speaker 1: repentance is God's loving invitation to turn away from what

933
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 1: is hurting you and turn back to Him so you

934
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,440
Speaker 1: can be fully alive. And I think I'm hoping that

935
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: people who have listened, who have listened to this interview today,

936
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 1: hear that call to be fully alive. Right giving up

937
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: your addictions and turning to Jesus is that invitation to

938
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: be fully alive. That's why I say your goal is

939
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: your your ultimate goal cannot be sobriety, your ultimate goal

940
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 1: is Jesus. Sobriety, you get thrown in and in making

941
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:03,160
Speaker 1: the ltimate gold Jesus, you get the most flourishing, fulfilled

942
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 1: life possible now in an eternity. And that's what I

943
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:08,640
Speaker 1: want to call people too. And I think when you

944
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:10,839
Speaker 1: talk about being full fully alive, that's what you're calling

945
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: people to.

946
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know I have a Can I just

947
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 2: say this real quick. Yeah, I have a friend that

948
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 2: did something that really could have should put him in prison,

949
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 2: and he hit it and I said to him, I said,

950
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 2: I can't. I can't do this with you, bro, I said,

951
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,960
Speaker 2: I will come every day to see the person in

952
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:43,600
Speaker 2: prison who owned the truth, who came out and said

953
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,680
Speaker 2: I did this or I did that, and I'm sorry,

954
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 2: and I want what Jesus has for me more than

955
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 2: I want to protect myself that person. I will come

956
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 2: every day and see. But this person, this person that's

957
00:54:57,680 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 2: hiding and protecting themselves, I can't. I can't do it.

958
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 2: And you know, I think that's that's real. Freedom understands

959
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:24,000
Speaker 2: that this life is so short. And Jesus is like

960
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 2: one of the things I say a lot is that

961
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 2: God is real and it sounds so many people are like, well,

962
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 2: that's a dues statement. No, think about it. Do you

963
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 2: believe God is real and Jesus is real? If you do,

964
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:40,280
Speaker 2: you know this thing is short and what really matters

965
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 2: is loving Him and loving people, not protecting yourself and

966
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:48,800
Speaker 2: your legacy or whatever. Even if you end up in prison, dude,

967
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:51,719
Speaker 2: this life is like a blink and you will be

968
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:53,799
Speaker 2: in the presence of Jesus and you will go I'm

969
00:55:53,840 --> 00:55:57,720
Speaker 2: so glad I went to prison because I got closer

970
00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 2: to you instead of running. That sounds crazy, right, This

971
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 2: is the beauty of the gospel, bro, This is the

972
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 2: beauty of really being alive. It's not health and wealth.

973
00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 2: I'm not talking about that, talking about really loving and

974
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,360
Speaker 2: knowing Jesus and loving people.

975
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: Oh and you know you say this in that in

976
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 1: that section as well, Like you you, repentance is not

977
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 1: like you know, it doesn't mean you want to pay consequences,

978
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:27,640
Speaker 1: right I say that. I say that's not a get

979
00:56:27,640 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 1: out of jail free card. And in fact, we may

980
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:30,759
Speaker 1: have to go to jail for some of the things

981
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: you've done. But what you're saying, I think is so

982
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 1: important is that being like free from the bondage of

983
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 1: what's enslaving you and in prison is actually more free

984
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 1: than being out of prison and enslaved to that stuff.

985
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:48,239
Speaker 2: And I know people who've gone to prison are now

986
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 2: out love Jesus and will say that.

987
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And that's the upside. That's the upside down, right,

988
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: that's the upside world of the Kingdom of God. And

989
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: that can't make sense to people who are not living it.

990
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: But that's the invitation. I love that you use that word.

991
00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:08,399
Speaker 1: That's the invitation. It's an invitation. So I also want

992
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,359
Speaker 1: to invite you, if you're listening to this, to read

993
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,799
Speaker 1: the book Radically Restored from Stephen McWorter, and it is.

994
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: It is a great It is a great story for

995
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: you to hopefully find yourself in and learn from. Man

996
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 1: That forgiveness stuff is so good. So Stephen, thank you

997
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 1: so much for joining the podcast. I really appreciate it.

998
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 2: Now, that's great, thanks buddy.

999
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: Maybe you've heard me say this before, but two weeks

1000
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: before I hit my rock bottom moment, my wife and

1001
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: I went on a retreat to Georgia, and that is

1002
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 1: the first time I said out loud that I was

1003
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: an alcoholic. I told myself, I told my wife, and

1004
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 1: even though two weeks later I convinced myself, well maybe

1005
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,520
Speaker 1: I really wasn't and then had to you know, hit

1006
00:58:00,560 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: the depths of my addiction. What was so interesting about

1007
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 1: that retreat is a I mean, it really was life changing.

1008
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:14,480
Speaker 1: Like even though in that moment of that admission it

1009
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: didn't stop for good my drinking, there was a lot

1010
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: that happened there that laid the groundwork in the foundation.

1011
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,919
Speaker 1: But here's what's interesting about that retreat. When we were

1012
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 1: getting ready to go, I think the day before or

1013
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:30,960
Speaker 1: two days before, we got this questionnaire from the person

1014
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:35,040
Speaker 1: who's running the treat, and it was you know, fill

1015
00:58:35,040 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: out these you know, answer these questions. And one of

1016
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,320
Speaker 1: the big things that it had in there that I

1017
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:47,479
Speaker 1: was not prepared for was questions about unforgiveness and who

1018
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 1: in your life have you you know, do you have

1019
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 1: something that you're harboring, some anger towards or whatnot. Who

1020
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: haven't you on who haven't you forgiven? And I remember

1021
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:02,200
Speaker 1: thinking this is so odd, like why is this such

1022
00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:05,200
Speaker 1: a huge part of this? And then what I went

1023
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: in and realized over the that weekend is that unforgiveness

1024
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,600
Speaker 1: is such a barrier and so you know, Stephen was

1025
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: talking about maybe using the rock analogy that's holding back

1026
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:22,600
Speaker 1: the water. I talked about drinking poison and expecting it

1027
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: to hurt someone else. But it really is true that

1028
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: unforgiveness in our lives is something that is a hindrance,

1029
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:33,560
Speaker 1: and I think it's a bigger hindrance than we realize.

1030
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,240
Speaker 1: And so what I want to end today with is

1031
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,440
Speaker 1: asking you who in your life you need to forgive

1032
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: and what I think is important, And I've written an

1033
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:44,200
Speaker 1: article on this on the Veritas Daily. You can go

1034
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: there and I'll try to remember to link it below

1035
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 1: in the show notes, but you can just search forgiveness

1036
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: at the Veritas Daily dot com. Is that you forgiving

1037
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:01,440
Speaker 1: someone is not a one time thing, like maybe, but

1038
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 1: but really I think it's choosing to forget, Like every

1039
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 1: time you remember that sin, every time you remember that wrong,

1040
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: it's choosing to forgive it. Like there's someone in my

1041
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:15,320
Speaker 1: life that I'm struggling with this with regarding like this

1042
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: is someone who I was really close to and I

1043
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: don't understand fully why our relationship ended the way it did.

1044
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what I did. I was really hurt,

1045
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 1: I was wronged in many ways, and I have to

1046
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: choose to forgive this person every time it comes up.

1047
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: It's not it wasn't a one time thing. And I

1048
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: think we do ourselves a disservice by thinking, oh, it's

1049
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,880
Speaker 1: a one time thing, and then we beat ourselves up

1050
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: or we say, wow, what's wrong with me because I'm

1051
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 1: still thinking about this or I still have these feelings,

1052
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's it's not about erasing the feelings

1053
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 1: or erasing the wrong like it happened and you're going

1054
01:00:57,680 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 1: to feel a certain way, but you can choose to

1055
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: give every time that comes up. And so that seventy

1056
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:07,400
Speaker 1: times seven is really important. Right again, it's that wholeness,

1057
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: it's that completeness. It's you're going to have to forgive

1058
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 1: whenever it comes up again. And so I want to

1059
01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 1: encourage you to take that posture, think about who do

1060
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 1: you need to forgive, and start forgiving them, and like

1061
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: Stephen said, like you know, I think there's a self

1062
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: righteous way to go. Well, I just need to let

1063
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 1: you know that you hurt me input I forgive you.

1064
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:33,320
Speaker 1: And it's like you just search your heart, like you

1065
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Speaker 1: know that that's not right, you know, but what does

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Speaker 1: it look like to truly start walking in forgiveness and

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01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: say I'm not gonna hold that against them. I'm not

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01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: gonna hold that against them. That's what I want you

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Speaker 1: to think about in the light of this episode. If

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Speaker 1: there's one thing that stood out to you that you

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01:01:51,040 --> 01:01:53,720
Speaker 1: think someone else could benefit from, please share it. Please

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01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:58,120
Speaker 1: share this podcast. I want to say thank you to

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Speaker 1: our partners at Life Audio who make this podcast possible.

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Speaker 1: Really appreciate their ongoing support. Pick up the book Radically

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Speaker 1: Restored How Knowing Jesus Heals Our brokenness? And I know

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Speaker 1: I mentioned it during the podcast, but you can also

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Speaker 1: go watch this episode see Steven's cool background on all

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Speaker 1: of his awesome tattoos. Go to the Veritas Daily dot

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Speaker 1: com the Veritas Daily dot com and there is a

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Speaker 1: video version of the podcast. And every single one of

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Speaker 1: these podcasts is has a video version there. Love you all,

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Speaker 1: We will talk with you next week.