1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,900 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 2: So if you're drinking regularly, your brain stops going through 3 00:00:09,590 --> 00:00:12,490 Speaker 2: that closing down process at the end of the day. Now, 4 00:00:12,670 --> 00:00:15,770 Speaker 2: the problem there is you suddenly have a day off. 5 00:00:16,150 --> 00:00:19,530 Speaker 2: You'll find it incredibly difficult to go to sleep. So 6 00:00:19,570 --> 00:00:21,930 Speaker 2: it stops going through that closing down process. So if 7 00:00:21,980 --> 00:00:24,939 Speaker 2: you stop drinking on day one, you'll find it almost 8 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,180 Speaker 2: impossible to get to sleep. But the problem with people 9 00:00:27,200 --> 00:00:29,540 Speaker 2: who are regularly drinking, a lot of the time they 10 00:00:29,580 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 2: don't stop long enough. 11 00:00:31,610 --> 00:00:34,669 Speaker 3: Welcome to Love Life Sober. I'm your host and your coach, 12 00:00:34,890 --> 00:00:37,830 Speaker 3: Christy Osborne. This podcast is for the woman who loves 13 00:00:37,890 --> 00:00:40,830 Speaker 3: Jesus or is longing to reconnect with him and who 14 00:00:40,870 --> 00:00:43,909 Speaker 3: knows deep down that alcohol is no longer serving her. 15 00:00:44,330 --> 00:00:47,089 Speaker 3: Here we talk honestly with grace and truth about how 16 00:00:47,130 --> 00:00:51,630 Speaker 3: stepping away from alcohol opens the door to the love, joy, peace, 17 00:00:51,729 --> 00:00:55,210 Speaker 3: and connection you've been searching for. Because babe, those things 18 00:00:55,250 --> 00:00:57,310 Speaker 3: were never meant to be found in a bottle of wine. 19 00:00:57,630 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 3: They're found in Jesus. Through scripture, coaching, and neuroscience, I'll 20 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 3: help you make sense of your habits, your nervous system, 21 00:01:04,860 --> 00:01:07,670 Speaker 3: and what you're really craving so that freedom feels not 22 00:01:07,730 --> 00:01:09,490 Speaker 3: only possible, but sustainable. 23 00:01:10,250 --> 00:01:16,690 Speaker 1: You don't have to do this alone, babe. Let's dive in. Hello, friends, 24 00:01:16,709 --> 00:01:18,390 Speaker 1: and welcome back to the podcast. 25 00:01:18,950 --> 00:01:22,390 Speaker 3: I'm so excited about today's conversation because my guest is 26 00:01:22,430 --> 00:01:25,950 Speaker 3: someone whose work has had an enormous impact on my 27 00:01:26,110 --> 00:01:29,819 Speaker 3: own alcohol-free journey. When I first stopped drinking back in 28 00:01:29,860 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 3: March of 2020, I was absolutely devouring anything and everything 29 00:01:33,940 --> 00:01:35,919 Speaker 3: I could get my hands on that would help me 30 00:01:35,980 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 3: understand alcohol. I knew I didn't want to drink anymore, 31 00:01:39,060 --> 00:01:41,070 Speaker 3: but I also knew that I didn't want to spend 32 00:01:41,110 --> 00:01:43,490 Speaker 3: the rest of my life feeling like I was missing 33 00:01:43,630 --> 00:01:46,850 Speaker 3: out on something. I wanted to lose the desire to drink. 34 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,100 Speaker 3: I wanted to understand why I had spent so many 35 00:01:50,140 --> 00:01:53,250 Speaker 3: years reaching for something that, if I was really honest 36 00:01:53,270 --> 00:01:57,210 Speaker 3: with myself, wasn't actually making my life any better. And 37 00:01:57,350 --> 00:01:59,830 Speaker 3: one of the most impactful books I read during those 38 00:01:59,930 --> 00:02:04,860 Speaker 3: early days was Alcohol Explained by William Porter and Alcohol 39 00:02:04,900 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 3: Explained 2 by William Porter. Those books were game changers 40 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,339 Speaker 3: for me. William has this incredible ability to take what 41 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,839 Speaker 3: actually is complicated neuroscience and explain it in a way 42 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 3: that makes so much sense. And once you understand what 43 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 3: alcohol is doing to your brain and body, it's really 44 00:02:23,139 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 3: hard to look at that glass of wine the same 45 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,460 Speaker 3: way again. For example, I spent years believing that wine 46 00:02:29,500 --> 00:02:32,169 Speaker 3: helped me relax. I thought it helped me switch off 47 00:02:32,210 --> 00:02:34,010 Speaker 3: at the end of a busy day. I thought it 48 00:02:34,030 --> 00:02:37,470 Speaker 3: helped me sleep and it made evenings more enjoyable. And 49 00:02:37,510 --> 00:02:40,709 Speaker 3: I genuinely believed all of those things because that was 50 00:02:40,750 --> 00:02:45,010 Speaker 3: my experience of drinking. But what I didn't understand was 51 00:02:45,050 --> 00:02:48,940 Speaker 3: what was happening behind the scenes. I didn't understand that 52 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:52,540 Speaker 3: alcohol was actually creating some of the anxiety I was 53 00:02:52,660 --> 00:02:55,520 Speaker 3: drinking to relieve or that the reason I was waking 54 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:57,399 Speaker 3: up at three in the morning with my heart racing 55 00:02:57,500 --> 00:03:00,389 Speaker 3: had everything to do with what I had poured into 56 00:03:00,430 --> 00:03:04,130 Speaker 3: my glass the night before. That's what makes William's work 57 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 3: so powerful. He isn't simply telling us that alcohol is 58 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: bad for you. He's helping you understand why you want 59 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,740 Speaker 3: it in the first place and what happens when you 60 00:03:12,780 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 3: begin to challenge those beliefs. And I think that distinction 61 00:03:16,340 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 3: is so important because there is a world of difference 62 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,380 Speaker 3: between gritting your teeth and trying not to drink and 63 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 3: genuinely getting to a place where you know you don't 64 00:03:24,139 --> 00:03:29,210 Speaker 3: want it anymore. Today, William and I are talking about anxiety, tolerance, craving, sleep, 65 00:03:29,310 --> 00:03:32,130 Speaker 3: and something called fading effect bias, which I also talk 66 00:03:32,150 --> 00:03:34,890 Speaker 3: about in my book, which explains why our brains have 67 00:03:34,930 --> 00:03:38,030 Speaker 3: this sneaky little habit of remembering the lovely glass of 68 00:03:38,090 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 3: rosé on vacation while conveniently forgetting the terrible night's sleep 69 00:03:42,100 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 3: and anxiety that followed. So whether you're on day one, 70 00:03:44,860 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 3: day 40, or you've been alcohol-free for years, I think 71 00:03:47,620 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 3: you're going to get so much out of this conversation. 72 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 3: William's books are still recommended reading inside our Love Life 73 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:56,500 Speaker 3: Sober community. And I am so grateful to have him 74 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 3: on the podcast. All right, my friends, here is my 75 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,250 Speaker 3: conversation with William Porter. Hi, William. 76 00:04:01,350 --> 00:04:03,130 Speaker 1: How are you? It's so nice to see you. 77 00:04:03,150 --> 00:04:06,190 Speaker 2: I'm really good. Thank you. Nice to see you again. 78 00:04:06,590 --> 00:04:11,250 Speaker 3: Yeah, I just, your books, both of them, were so 79 00:04:11,390 --> 00:04:17,310 Speaker 3: instrumental in my alcohol-free story. They are recommended reading, required 80 00:04:17,370 --> 00:04:21,470 Speaker 3: reading even in my community. And the way that you 81 00:04:21,510 --> 00:04:25,049 Speaker 3: break down how alcohol affects our brains and our bodies 82 00:04:25,290 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 3: and just our like day-to-day life. is so incredibly helpful. 83 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,179 Speaker 3: And so thank you for being here. I'm so excited 84 00:04:33,220 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 3: to have this conversation with you. I would just love 85 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,220 Speaker 3: to know what made you passionate about writing about this topic? 86 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 3: Like what was your own kind of alcohol story like? 87 00:04:44,339 --> 00:04:48,810 Speaker 2: So my own story was my drinking was getting increasingly 88 00:04:48,890 --> 00:04:51,990 Speaker 2: out of hand. This was back in 2014. I was 89 00:04:52,029 --> 00:04:57,289 Speaker 2: drinking heavily. my life was sort of falling to pieces 90 00:04:57,350 --> 00:04:59,430 Speaker 2: a bit. It was getting worse and worse. I was 91 00:04:59,470 --> 00:05:01,670 Speaker 2: starting to ring in sick from work and then sit 92 00:05:01,690 --> 00:05:03,890 Speaker 2: at home and then start drinking again. So it was, 93 00:05:04,470 --> 00:05:06,790 Speaker 2: it wasn't off the rails completely, but it was, it 94 00:05:06,830 --> 00:05:11,089 Speaker 2: was heading that way. And I got to the point really, 95 00:05:11,110 --> 00:05:13,190 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously there was a lot more to it 96 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 2: than just this, but it was, I realised I had 97 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 2: to stop or my life was going to take some very, 98 00:05:20,740 --> 00:05:24,710 Speaker 2: very drastic changes for the worse sort of imminently. So 99 00:05:24,830 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 2: that was my own personal story. The writing about it was, 100 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 2: I'd been to AA a couple of times and spoken 101 00:05:33,779 --> 00:05:36,940 Speaker 2: to people and I realised a lot of people wanted 102 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:41,300 Speaker 2: to understand what was happening, why it was happening, why 103 00:05:41,339 --> 00:05:43,550 Speaker 2: can they have one or two drinks, I have to 104 00:05:43,580 --> 00:05:46,490 Speaker 2: drink loads when I start, I can't stop. And I 105 00:05:46,550 --> 00:05:49,790 Speaker 2: realised that I had quite a lot of knowledge and understanding. 106 00:05:50,150 --> 00:05:53,690 Speaker 2: I hadn't deliberately gone out to research to write a book. 107 00:05:54,420 --> 00:05:58,050 Speaker 2: but I've always been fairly inquisitive. And I read Alan 108 00:05:58,110 --> 00:06:00,690 Speaker 2: Carr's Stop Smoking book when I was about 14, and 109 00:06:00,730 --> 00:06:04,870 Speaker 2: it really interested me. And it had quite a big 110 00:06:04,910 --> 00:06:08,690 Speaker 2: influence on me because up to that point, no one 111 00:06:08,710 --> 00:06:11,030 Speaker 2: really had anything rational to say about addiction. It was 112 00:06:11,050 --> 00:06:13,810 Speaker 2: this irrational thing. We don't understand how it happens. And 113 00:06:14,110 --> 00:06:17,070 Speaker 2: he at least tried to understand it and explain it 114 00:06:17,130 --> 00:06:19,630 Speaker 2: all and took this really rational approach to it. And 115 00:06:19,650 --> 00:06:22,419 Speaker 2: I think almost just subconsciously, I did that with my drinking. 116 00:06:22,500 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 2: So When I was drinking and I wake up in 117 00:06:25,339 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 2: the middle of the night, unable to get back to sleep, 118 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,620 Speaker 2: I'd sit down one afternoon, it was pre-internet those days, 119 00:06:31,660 --> 00:06:34,660 Speaker 2: obviously right back in the 90s, and try and understand 120 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 2: why I was waking up in the middle of the 121 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,020 Speaker 2: night when I was drinking and couldn't get back to sleep. 122 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:42,140 Speaker 2: So over the years, I'd researched and also a lot 123 00:06:42,190 --> 00:06:45,650 Speaker 2: of it's just sort of self-reflection. What am I feeling? 124 00:06:46,110 --> 00:06:48,169 Speaker 2: How am I feeling it? Why do I think I'm 125 00:06:48,210 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 2: feeling like this? almost like self-analysis. And so I built 126 00:06:51,779 --> 00:06:55,620 Speaker 2: up this fairly coherent picture of what alcohol was, and 127 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,540 Speaker 2: it very much didn't tally with how the rest of 128 00:06:58,580 --> 00:07:02,109 Speaker 2: society sees it. And I also, as I say, knew 129 00:07:02,140 --> 00:07:05,750 Speaker 2: from personal experience, it would probably help people. And I 130 00:07:05,830 --> 00:07:10,470 Speaker 2: certainly felt it helped me quit for various reasons. But 131 00:07:11,010 --> 00:07:16,630 Speaker 2: understanding the process, for me, helped me understand that actually 132 00:07:16,650 --> 00:07:19,260 Speaker 2: I could live my life without alcohol. And not only 133 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: could I live it, but I could live it very 134 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:24,380 Speaker 2: well and have a very happy life without alcohol. Understanding 135 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 2: and giving me that key, and I hoped it would 136 00:07:26,980 --> 00:07:29,060 Speaker 2: work the same for other people. Yeah. 137 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 3: And that is something that I feel like is so 138 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 3: important because if you have the viewpoint of, look at 139 00:07:34,780 --> 00:07:38,610 Speaker 3: how my life can be improved without this substance, as 140 00:07:38,670 --> 00:07:41,490 Speaker 3: opposed to what am I going to miss out on? Like, 141 00:07:41,550 --> 00:07:43,750 Speaker 3: what's my life going to be like without it? The 142 00:07:43,790 --> 00:07:47,320 Speaker 3: game kind of changes, right? Like, you're able to see 143 00:07:47,340 --> 00:07:48,500 Speaker 3: the benefits and the gifts. 144 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:53,430 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Anyone who drinks alcohol, they drink alcohol because of 145 00:07:53,470 --> 00:07:55,910 Speaker 2: their beliefs in it, what they think it does for them. 146 00:07:56,010 --> 00:07:57,990 Speaker 2: So you might have someone who has a glass of 147 00:07:58,070 --> 00:08:00,550 Speaker 2: wine every year, only on a special occasion at a 148 00:08:00,570 --> 00:08:03,180 Speaker 2: wedding or something, but they will have a belief that 149 00:08:03,740 --> 00:08:07,340 Speaker 2: it's not harmful in that quantity. It tastes nice or 150 00:08:07,380 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: it's a nice feeling or whatever. It's all our beliefs 151 00:08:09,860 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 2: right through to the other end where you've got someone 152 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,130 Speaker 2: drinking three bottles of spirits a day. You know, their 153 00:08:14,150 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: beliefs are, I cannot function without this thing. I feel 154 00:08:17,220 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 2: awful without it. I'm only able to function when I've 155 00:08:19,380 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 2: had a significant amount of alcohol. 156 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:21,860 Speaker 3: Yeah. 157 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,180 Speaker 2: It's all these belief systems. And actually, these belief systems, 158 00:08:25,900 --> 00:08:28,870 Speaker 2: most of them can change. And we change them with 159 00:08:28,940 --> 00:08:30,850 Speaker 2: knowledge and understanding. Yeah. 160 00:08:30,970 --> 00:08:33,370 Speaker 3: I would love to start by talking about the belief 161 00:08:33,410 --> 00:08:37,150 Speaker 3: system behind, I drink because I'm anxious or I drink 162 00:08:37,210 --> 00:08:40,569 Speaker 3: to relax or to, you know, come down, shut off, 163 00:08:40,610 --> 00:08:45,750 Speaker 3: whatever it is. because that was understanding the science of 164 00:08:45,830 --> 00:08:48,270 Speaker 3: it in your book was so, so helpful for me. 165 00:08:48,830 --> 00:08:51,230 Speaker 3: So can you speak to a little bit about what 166 00:08:51,370 --> 00:08:56,550 Speaker 3: happens to us neurochemically in our body when we drink 167 00:08:56,590 --> 00:08:58,650 Speaker 3: and how that affects our anxiety? 168 00:08:59,390 --> 00:08:59,990 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 169 00:09:00,050 --> 00:09:00,329 Speaker 3: Yeah. 170 00:09:00,370 --> 00:09:04,470 Speaker 2: So alcohol, obviously, it's a sedative. It's a depressant. When 171 00:09:04,490 --> 00:09:06,530 Speaker 2: I'm using the word depressant, I'm using it in its 172 00:09:06,610 --> 00:09:10,980 Speaker 2: chemical sense as something that depresses or inhibits nerve activity. 173 00:09:11,650 --> 00:09:14,860 Speaker 2: The other class, not all drugs fall into one of 174 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:16,980 Speaker 2: these two categories, but a lot of them fall into 175 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 2: either sedatives like alcohol or stimulants like nicotine, caffeine, adrenaline. 176 00:09:23,380 --> 00:09:26,059 Speaker 2: These are all substances that make us awake and alert, 177 00:09:26,140 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 2: whereas depressants do the opposite. So people are absolutely right. 178 00:09:30,020 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: If you're anxious, it absolutely will calm you down because 179 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,140 Speaker 2: it is a sedative. But there's a slight problem with 180 00:09:36,210 --> 00:09:40,790 Speaker 2: that because the human brain... works by way of something 181 00:09:40,820 --> 00:09:45,219 Speaker 2: called homeostasis. And that basically means a delicate balance of 182 00:09:45,260 --> 00:09:48,220 Speaker 2: all the chemicals, drugs and hormones that the human brain 183 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:52,230 Speaker 2: creates and excretes itself. So when I was talking about stimulants, 184 00:09:52,260 --> 00:09:56,189 Speaker 2: I mentioned caffeine and nicotine. Your brain doesn't create these, 185 00:09:56,570 --> 00:10:00,929 Speaker 2: you consume them externally. Whereas I also mentioned adrenaline. Adrenaline 186 00:10:00,980 --> 00:10:03,140 Speaker 2: is a chemical that your brain creates, which has a 187 00:10:03,179 --> 00:10:06,540 Speaker 2: similar effect. It's a stimulant. Your brain creates and excretes 188 00:10:06,620 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: a huge array of chemicals, drugs, and hormones, but it's 189 00:10:09,300 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 2: trying to keep a balance of them all. It's a 190 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,719 Speaker 2: very delicate process, and we humans don't have even an 191 00:10:14,780 --> 00:10:19,309 Speaker 2: inkling of how it all works and fits together. But fortunately, 192 00:10:19,350 --> 00:10:22,829 Speaker 2: to understand alcohol, you don't need that depth of understanding. 193 00:10:22,850 --> 00:10:25,630 Speaker 2: All you need to know is that your brain works 194 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:28,280 Speaker 2: by way of this delicate chemical balancing act and that 195 00:10:28,380 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 2: alcohol is a sedative. What happens when you drink alcohol? Yes, 196 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 2: it does anaesthetise any feeling of anxiety, but your brain, 197 00:10:37,940 --> 00:10:41,610 Speaker 2: because it's working to keep a balance, tries to counter 198 00:10:41,650 --> 00:10:43,969 Speaker 2: the sedating effects of the alcohol. And it does this 199 00:10:44,030 --> 00:10:46,949 Speaker 2: in lots and lots of different ways. It releases adrenaline, 200 00:10:46,970 --> 00:10:50,610 Speaker 2: which I've mentioned. releases cortisol which is a stress hormone 201 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,100 Speaker 2: but what it's really trying to do is counteract the 202 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 2: sedating effects of the alcohol now the problem is the 203 00:10:57,780 --> 00:11:02,860 Speaker 2: alcohol then leaves our system but those stimulants the stress 204 00:11:02,940 --> 00:11:06,140 Speaker 2: hormones etc are still in your body the way i 205 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,589 Speaker 2: usually describe it is those old-fashioned weighing scales where you've 206 00:11:09,610 --> 00:11:12,510 Speaker 2: got like a bar hung in the middle with two 207 00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:15,770 Speaker 2: baskets hanging off it and you put things in to 208 00:11:15,830 --> 00:11:19,260 Speaker 2: make it balance Now imagine that's your brain and on 209 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,970 Speaker 2: the one basket is stimulants and the other one is sedatives. 210 00:11:23,690 --> 00:11:26,069 Speaker 2: If you're sat there completely normal, and by normal I 211 00:11:26,110 --> 00:11:29,250 Speaker 2: mean you've had no external chemicals or drugs, just your 212 00:11:29,510 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 2: brain's naturally occurring ones, that will be balanced. Now in 213 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:37,340 Speaker 2: taking alcohol, you put a load into the sedative basket 214 00:11:37,380 --> 00:11:40,460 Speaker 2: so that it tips. Your brain then counters it by 215 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,780 Speaker 2: putting a load in the stimulant side so it tips 216 00:11:42,980 --> 00:11:45,900 Speaker 2: back and it evens out. But then when the alcohol 217 00:11:45,940 --> 00:11:47,620 Speaker 2: wears off, it tips the other way because you've got 218 00:11:47,660 --> 00:11:50,199 Speaker 2: too much in the way of stimulant, et cetera, et cetera, 219 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:54,839 Speaker 2: which is an incredibly long way of saying for every action, 220 00:11:54,860 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: there's an equal and opposite reaction. So whatever sedating, anesthetizing 221 00:12:00,350 --> 00:12:04,290 Speaker 2: effect you have when you drink alcohol, there's a corresponding 222 00:12:04,630 --> 00:12:08,230 Speaker 2: increasing anxiety when it wears off. So that's very basic. Now, 223 00:12:08,330 --> 00:12:13,220 Speaker 2: if you're drinking regularly because of the anxiety... The anxiety 224 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: at that point will be almost entirely the withdrawal. I 225 00:12:16,460 --> 00:12:18,700 Speaker 2: call it withdrawal, but the anxiety left over from the 226 00:12:18,740 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 2: previous drink. So people who are drinking regularly, that glass 227 00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:26,440 Speaker 2: of wine they have is wonderful. It's really nice because 228 00:12:26,490 --> 00:12:28,990 Speaker 2: it really relaxes you and makes you feel good. But 229 00:12:29,030 --> 00:12:33,690 Speaker 2: it's doing no more than correcting the imbalance it caused previously. 230 00:12:34,150 --> 00:12:36,850 Speaker 2: Because if you think about it, the reason you're feeling 231 00:12:36,970 --> 00:12:40,380 Speaker 2: uptight and anxious is is because your brain's geared up 232 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 2: to work under the sedating effects of the alcohol, but 233 00:12:42,580 --> 00:12:44,850 Speaker 2: there is no alcohol. So the quickest way to get 234 00:12:44,870 --> 00:12:46,489 Speaker 2: rid of that feeling is to have a drink. You're 235 00:12:46,530 --> 00:12:49,390 Speaker 2: filling a gap that was caused by the substance in 236 00:12:49,429 --> 00:12:50,270 Speaker 2: the first place. 237 00:12:50,790 --> 00:12:51,110 Speaker 1: Yeah. 238 00:12:51,450 --> 00:12:54,350 Speaker 3: I was a nightly drinker, but I never thought to myself, oh, 239 00:12:54,390 --> 00:12:57,650 Speaker 3: I'm dealing actually with withdrawal, right? Because that's a word 240 00:12:57,710 --> 00:13:01,020 Speaker 3: that is used in people that, other people, right? That 241 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 3: are alcoholics and that are addicted, but like not me, 242 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,220 Speaker 3: who's just having one too many on the couch because 243 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,380 Speaker 3: the kids are asleep or on a night out, right? 244 00:13:08,830 --> 00:13:13,130 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. It's worth just clarifying, that's a really good 245 00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:15,990 Speaker 2: point talking about withdrawal, because when people think about withdrawal 246 00:13:16,010 --> 00:13:21,210 Speaker 2: from alcohol, they think about delirium tremens and seizures and extreme. 247 00:13:21,570 --> 00:13:23,989 Speaker 2: And of course, that's part of it for the very 248 00:13:24,050 --> 00:13:27,580 Speaker 2: heaviest drinkers. But withdrawal isn't all or nothing. You don't 249 00:13:27,620 --> 00:13:31,420 Speaker 2: go from nothing to suddenly having DTs. There's a sliding scale. 250 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 2: When I talk about withdrawal, how I define it is 251 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:42,330 Speaker 2: an unpleasant feeling, caused by a chemical imbalance that is 252 00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:45,470 Speaker 2: itself caused by the previous dose of the drug wearing 253 00:13:45,570 --> 00:13:48,429 Speaker 2: off and that is what we're dealing with and if 254 00:13:48,510 --> 00:13:52,660 Speaker 2: that is a definition of withdrawal then everyone has withdrawal 255 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: even if they have one drink that almost imperceptible feeling 256 00:13:56,260 --> 00:13:58,540 Speaker 2: of anxiety that will creep up as the drink wears 257 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 2: off is withdrawal will be it right at the low 258 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 2: end of the scale. 259 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:07,010 Speaker 3: Yeah we'll be back right after a quick word from 260 00:14:07,070 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 3: our sponsors And so obviously this is an issue for 261 00:14:10,980 --> 00:14:13,740 Speaker 3: the everyday drinker, but it's also an issue for the 262 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,260 Speaker 3: moderate drinker, right? That might maybe only drinks on weekends. 263 00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:19,570 Speaker 3: And can you talk a little bit about that and 264 00:14:19,630 --> 00:14:21,550 Speaker 3: how long it maybe stays in the systems? 265 00:14:21,970 --> 00:14:24,390 Speaker 2: So I've spoken a lot about regular drinkers, but actually 266 00:14:24,410 --> 00:14:26,090 Speaker 2: I myself was never a regular drinker. 267 00:14:26,350 --> 00:14:26,590 Speaker 3: Yeah. 268 00:14:26,770 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: There were occasions when I drank every day for weeks 269 00:14:29,740 --> 00:14:33,130 Speaker 2: or maybe even months. But most of my drinking was 270 00:14:33,150 --> 00:14:36,550 Speaker 2: done at weekends. So as you know, I'm a lawyer 271 00:14:36,570 --> 00:14:39,470 Speaker 2: and I worked out very, very early on that I 272 00:14:39,630 --> 00:14:43,210 Speaker 2: couldn't do my job, couldn't sit and concentrate and read 273 00:14:43,250 --> 00:14:45,610 Speaker 2: and understand things when I've been drinking the night before, 274 00:14:45,970 --> 00:14:48,510 Speaker 2: which was a godsend really, because I never got into 275 00:14:48,530 --> 00:14:51,250 Speaker 2: the habit of drinking every day. But so what I 276 00:14:51,310 --> 00:14:53,270 Speaker 2: would do then is I would get to the weekend 277 00:14:53,330 --> 00:14:55,530 Speaker 2: and I would start like Friday lunchtime, have a few 278 00:14:55,590 --> 00:14:57,830 Speaker 2: beers at lunchtime and then go out in the evening, drink, 279 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: And then I would wake up in the middle of 280 00:15:00,460 --> 00:15:03,370 Speaker 2: the night, have some more drinks to get back to sleep. 281 00:15:04,090 --> 00:15:08,830 Speaker 2: And that's what happens. Whereas if people are drinking regularly, 282 00:15:08,970 --> 00:15:13,650 Speaker 2: they tend to keep the amounts down. Certainly what I 283 00:15:13,710 --> 00:15:16,350 Speaker 2: was doing is, oh, I don't drink during the week. Therefore, 284 00:15:16,370 --> 00:15:18,229 Speaker 2: I try to get my entire drinking quota in at 285 00:15:18,250 --> 00:15:21,250 Speaker 2: the weekend. That's why I was waking up in the night. 286 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: It's that withdrawal. So alcohol has got a half-life of 287 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,660 Speaker 2: five hours. Now, what half-life means, it's the time it 288 00:15:29,740 --> 00:15:32,220 Speaker 2: takes for the amount of a drug to drop by 289 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:34,700 Speaker 2: half in your system. If you've got, I don't know, 290 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: however many milligrams of alcohol in your system, after five hours, 291 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:37,980 Speaker 2: it will half. 292 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 293 00:15:38,940 --> 00:15:39,180 Speaker 1: Okay. 294 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:43,110 Speaker 2: So what most people find is after their last drink, 295 00:15:43,430 --> 00:15:46,170 Speaker 2: they're wide awake about five hours after that. And for me, 296 00:15:46,210 --> 00:15:48,730 Speaker 2: it was almost exactly five hours after my last drink 297 00:15:48,770 --> 00:15:52,690 Speaker 2: because the alcohol had dropped and that overstimulation had kind 298 00:15:52,730 --> 00:15:55,110 Speaker 2: of woken me up. And that's what I quite often 299 00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:59,300 Speaker 2: say to people. Drinking alcohol is the equivalent of, say 300 00:15:59,340 --> 00:16:01,580 Speaker 2: you need to sleep eight hours and you're at your 301 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,020 Speaker 2: best and you sleep, I don't know, 11 at night 302 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: to seven in the morning. Drinking alcohol is like setting 303 00:16:07,140 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 2: an alarm for three or four in the morning every night, 304 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 2: waking up and drinking loads and loads of really strong 305 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: black coffee. What you're doing when you drink alcohol. 306 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,850 Speaker 3: So funny because I just got that question in our 307 00:16:19,030 --> 00:16:22,850 Speaker 3: community yesterday. It was like, why always 3am? And it's like, well, 308 00:16:22,870 --> 00:16:25,590 Speaker 3: if you work it backwards, actually it makes perfect sense. 309 00:16:26,110 --> 00:16:26,450 Speaker 2: That's it. 310 00:16:26,870 --> 00:16:27,290 Speaker 1: Yeah. 311 00:16:27,430 --> 00:16:29,650 Speaker 2: I remember speaking to someone once and he was adamant 312 00:16:29,670 --> 00:16:31,930 Speaker 2: that this never happened to him. And then when we 313 00:16:31,950 --> 00:16:33,500 Speaker 2: dug into it a bit further, it's because he was 314 00:16:33,530 --> 00:16:35,420 Speaker 2: going to bed at midnight and waking up at five. 315 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 316 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: And then he had to start his day. 317 00:16:38,660 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 2: So he started his day. 318 00:16:40,180 --> 00:16:40,739 Speaker 1: Yeah. 319 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:41,300 Speaker 3: Wow. 320 00:16:42,590 --> 00:16:44,350 Speaker 2: I wouldn't fancy that. Yeah. 321 00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:45,170 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. 322 00:16:45,550 --> 00:16:47,620 Speaker 3: So talk about a little bit, because you talk about 323 00:16:47,670 --> 00:16:50,580 Speaker 3: resilience a lot in your books. And so what does 324 00:16:50,620 --> 00:16:53,540 Speaker 3: this do to a person over time? And like, what 325 00:16:53,580 --> 00:16:56,859 Speaker 3: happens to your nervous system if you're constantly doing this 326 00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 3: for years and years? 327 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,630 Speaker 2: So this is what we talk about tolerance. And this 328 00:17:01,690 --> 00:17:03,590 Speaker 2: is one of the interesting things. And it's one of 329 00:17:03,610 --> 00:17:06,350 Speaker 2: the things that sort of pulled me in because a 330 00:17:06,390 --> 00:17:07,910 Speaker 2: lot of what we do, I mean, we're all busy 331 00:17:07,950 --> 00:17:10,290 Speaker 2: people and we just understand things, we do things and 332 00:17:10,310 --> 00:17:12,669 Speaker 2: we move on. But I think at one point I 333 00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:15,990 Speaker 2: stopped and tried to think, what's tolerant to alcohol? Because 334 00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:19,689 Speaker 2: when you first start drinking one or two drinks and 335 00:17:20,109 --> 00:17:22,630 Speaker 2: you're away with the fairies, but then after 10 years, 336 00:17:23,030 --> 00:17:24,970 Speaker 2: you can drink a bottle or two of wine and 337 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,940 Speaker 2: still be fairly compos mentis. So the question is, what 338 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,580 Speaker 2: changes that allows you? Because if you took someone who'd 339 00:17:32,619 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 2: never drunk before and gave them two bottles of wine, 340 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 2: they'd be seriously ill. They might even have to be hospitalised. 341 00:17:38,020 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 2: You could kill someone. And what it is, it's as 342 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 2: simple as your brain becoming more efficient and better able 343 00:17:45,609 --> 00:17:49,730 Speaker 2: to counter the sedating effects of the alcohol. Human body 344 00:17:50,090 --> 00:17:53,050 Speaker 2: and brain is fantastic at adapting to things and it 345 00:17:53,090 --> 00:17:56,350 Speaker 2: adapts to drugs. If you've never taken alcohol before and 346 00:17:56,369 --> 00:17:58,750 Speaker 2: you have a drink, your brain has never encountered it before. 347 00:17:59,030 --> 00:18:01,169 Speaker 2: So it does what it can, which isn't much, but 348 00:18:01,230 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 2: with repeated use, your brain starts to create more cortisol, 349 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,570 Speaker 2: that stress hormone, and create more adrenaline. It's ready to 350 00:18:08,650 --> 00:18:11,250 Speaker 2: dump it into your system quicker and quicker and quicker. 351 00:18:11,609 --> 00:18:15,850 Speaker 2: So that's basically what tolerance to alcohol is. It's your 352 00:18:15,890 --> 00:18:19,210 Speaker 2: brain's ability to counter the sedating effects of the alcohol. 353 00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:21,800 Speaker 2: It's getting better and better and it's to protect you. 354 00:18:21,820 --> 00:18:24,239 Speaker 2: You know, it's got this poison coming in and it's 355 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:26,619 Speaker 2: doing what it can to try and counter the poison 356 00:18:26,660 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 2: so it doesn't actually kill you. The knock-on effect of 357 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: that is several fold firstly you need to drink more 358 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:36,700 Speaker 2: to get the same effect so if when you start 359 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,609 Speaker 2: drinking you have a glass of wine and it's a 360 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,950 Speaker 2: lovely feeling um after three years it's not you have 361 00:18:42,970 --> 00:18:45,050 Speaker 2: to have more your brain's better at countering it so 362 00:18:45,090 --> 00:18:48,470 Speaker 2: you have to keep increasing the dose to just to 363 00:18:48,510 --> 00:18:51,149 Speaker 2: get the same effect and the other point of course 364 00:18:51,190 --> 00:18:54,850 Speaker 2: is the withdrawal gets worse Because again, every action, there's 365 00:18:54,890 --> 00:18:57,450 Speaker 2: an equal opposite reaction. If you have a small glass 366 00:18:57,490 --> 00:18:59,990 Speaker 2: of wine, the withdrawal is going to be a minor 367 00:19:00,050 --> 00:19:02,669 Speaker 2: feeling of anxiety. You might not even realize it's there. 368 00:19:02,690 --> 00:19:06,470 Speaker 2: But if you're drinking a bottle of spirits, that anxiety 369 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:10,179 Speaker 2: is up through the roof. So that's the thing. And 370 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: of course, yeah, so it kind of feeds into itself. 371 00:19:12,859 --> 00:19:15,580 Speaker 2: There's a natural tendency, you know, people often talk about 372 00:19:15,619 --> 00:19:18,300 Speaker 2: moderation and, you know, just try and cut down. The 373 00:19:18,380 --> 00:19:21,300 Speaker 2: problem is the natural tendency with drugs is to take 374 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 2: more and more, not less and less. You're always going 375 00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:26,300 Speaker 2: to have to be swimming against the tide if you're 376 00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 2: trying to cut down. Because like I say, you need 377 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 2: to drink more to get the same effect. And then 378 00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:35,190 Speaker 2: when it wears off, the residual anxiety is worse and stronger, 379 00:19:35,230 --> 00:19:37,750 Speaker 2: which makes you want to drink it quicker and more 380 00:19:38,790 --> 00:19:42,310 Speaker 2: earlier in the day. And it just obviously exacerbates over time. 381 00:19:42,970 --> 00:19:46,070 Speaker 3: Yeah. And as you're in this cycle of drinking more 382 00:19:46,090 --> 00:19:49,550 Speaker 3: and more, thinking, oh, this is great. My brain's adapting, right? 383 00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:53,230 Speaker 3: Like I remember like, you know, ages ago when I 384 00:19:53,630 --> 00:19:55,220 Speaker 3: was in college and this was something that you could 385 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 3: brag about, right? Is your tolerance and everything like that. 386 00:19:58,340 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 3: But what is that doing to the rest of your body? 387 00:20:01,859 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 3: All of your other organs, your cancer risk, like it's just. 388 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,310 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's quite scary. I kind of think of my 389 00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:12,230 Speaker 2: remit as not telling people to drink or to drink less, 390 00:20:12,250 --> 00:20:14,950 Speaker 2: but just to give people information so that they can 391 00:20:14,970 --> 00:20:17,109 Speaker 2: make their own. Anyone who picks up a drink, whoever 392 00:20:17,150 --> 00:20:20,859 Speaker 2: they are, they go through an even subconscious thought process, 393 00:20:21,020 --> 00:20:23,500 Speaker 2: weigh up the pros and cons, and they'll take that drink. 394 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,139 Speaker 2: I'm just giving people information because if you want to 395 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 2: make a good decision, you need the right information. You 396 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,980 Speaker 2: can't have any gaps in it, and it's got to 397 00:20:32,020 --> 00:20:35,119 Speaker 2: be correct. And this is one of the things you 398 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 2: were saying about the cancer risk and all the rest 399 00:20:37,460 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 2: of it. And it's still a kind of widely held 400 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,050 Speaker 2: belief now that a glass of red wine is good 401 00:20:44,130 --> 00:20:49,430 Speaker 2: for you. And it's astounding because it absolutely isn't. Grapes 402 00:20:49,530 --> 00:20:52,290 Speaker 2: and grape juice, they're a fruit and they are good 403 00:20:52,369 --> 00:20:54,860 Speaker 2: for us. And one of the things they're particularly full 404 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:59,620 Speaker 2: of is antioxidants. Now, when you make wine, you're basically 405 00:20:59,660 --> 00:21:02,590 Speaker 2: taking the grape juice and leaving it to rot. And 406 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:08,090 Speaker 2: that process kills 99% of the nutritional value. The one 407 00:21:08,250 --> 00:21:11,530 Speaker 2: thing that is not affected by that, the only thing 408 00:21:11,550 --> 00:21:15,070 Speaker 2: that is not affected is the antioxidants. They remain. Vitamin 409 00:21:15,130 --> 00:21:17,550 Speaker 2: C in grapes and grape juice is very high. And 410 00:21:17,609 --> 00:21:21,590 Speaker 2: in wine, there's zero. You're destroying 99% of the nutritional value. 411 00:21:21,670 --> 00:21:25,260 Speaker 2: You're adding a class one carcinogen. And then you're saying, oh, 412 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:27,620 Speaker 2: but there's still some of these antioxidants in there. It's 413 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:28,239 Speaker 2: good for you. 414 00:21:28,630 --> 00:21:31,780 Speaker 3: And then when you're actually in the process, if we're 415 00:21:31,820 --> 00:21:34,229 Speaker 3: going back to kind of just like anxiety, right, and 416 00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 3: drinking to calm down and everything. 417 00:21:36,380 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: I love the way that you talk about this. 418 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,060 Speaker 3: When you're in that moment, right, you're not even really 419 00:21:41,140 --> 00:21:45,360 Speaker 3: focused on what's around you or actually relaxing because you're 420 00:21:45,420 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 3: only focused on your next drink. 421 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: And so how is that actually benefiting you? Yeah, exactly. 422 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:54,619 Speaker 2: So this brings us on to what I call the 423 00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:57,950 Speaker 2: craving spiral. I mean, if you look at any definition 424 00:21:57,990 --> 00:22:02,060 Speaker 2: of addiction to anything, it includes cravings. Obviously, that powerful 425 00:22:02,220 --> 00:22:04,780 Speaker 2: urge to consume something. And a lot of people ask 426 00:22:04,820 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 2: questions about cravings. Cravings are actually a conscious thought process. 427 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,980 Speaker 2: So people have this view of cravings. You know, you walk, 428 00:22:13,020 --> 00:22:15,409 Speaker 2: it's like lightning coming down the sky and hitting you. 429 00:22:15,450 --> 00:22:17,650 Speaker 2: It's completely external. Nothing you can do about it. You're 430 00:22:17,670 --> 00:22:21,190 Speaker 2: just craving. Craving is a thought process. And it's a 431 00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:26,970 Speaker 2: thought process whereby you fantasize about something. And you tease 432 00:22:26,990 --> 00:22:29,730 Speaker 2: yourself with the thought of it and you create this 433 00:22:29,970 --> 00:22:32,190 Speaker 2: kind of torture. I really want it. I'd feel so 434 00:22:32,250 --> 00:22:34,630 Speaker 2: good if I had it, et cetera, et cetera. That 435 00:22:34,690 --> 00:22:39,020 Speaker 2: craving process is purely conscious and it's purely in your mind. 436 00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 2: It can be triggered off, obviously, by the withdrawal, et cetera, 437 00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:44,699 Speaker 2: et cetera. But the actual process itself is entirely in 438 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,660 Speaker 2: your mind. And so if we jump back a little bit, 439 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 2: you know, I was saying that I only ever drank 440 00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,980 Speaker 2: at weekends. Obviously, on a Friday night, I would be 441 00:22:53,020 --> 00:22:54,810 Speaker 2: sat there. I hadn't had a drink for a few days, 442 00:22:54,869 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 2: so there was no... withdrawal no increased anxiety but I 443 00:22:59,140 --> 00:23:02,540 Speaker 2: still really wanted a drink now for me there was 444 00:23:02,619 --> 00:23:06,939 Speaker 2: no physical side to that it was purely psychological and 445 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,409 Speaker 2: what it was is it's Friday night I have a 446 00:23:09,420 --> 00:23:12,070 Speaker 2: beer on a Friday night I'll enjoy it I want 447 00:23:12,150 --> 00:23:14,690 Speaker 2: it start teasing myself with the thought of it so 448 00:23:14,750 --> 00:23:17,530 Speaker 2: whatever you're doing you're not enjoying it so say it 449 00:23:17,570 --> 00:23:18,869 Speaker 2: was a Friday night and I was supposed to be 450 00:23:18,910 --> 00:23:20,690 Speaker 2: out with my friends or I was just sat at 451 00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:24,050 Speaker 2: home having a takeaway or watching a box set or 452 00:23:24,090 --> 00:23:28,370 Speaker 2: whatever it is Those things are inherently enjoyable, but they're 453 00:23:28,430 --> 00:23:32,899 Speaker 2: only enjoyable if you're paying attention to it, actually enjoying it. 454 00:23:32,910 --> 00:23:35,609 Speaker 2: You're not going to be enjoying your friend's company or 455 00:23:35,630 --> 00:23:38,929 Speaker 2: the box set or the meal if 90% of your 456 00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:42,350 Speaker 2: attention is taken up with this unpleasant internal, almost like 457 00:23:42,410 --> 00:23:45,109 Speaker 2: toddler's tantrum. I want it, I can't have it. It 458 00:23:45,150 --> 00:23:47,970 Speaker 2: would be really nice, et cetera, et cetera. And that's 459 00:23:48,050 --> 00:23:48,899 Speaker 2: really what that is. 460 00:23:49,330 --> 00:23:52,230 Speaker 3: And that happens if you're in that place of either 461 00:23:52,330 --> 00:23:55,869 Speaker 3: trying to abstain by willpower or moderate. 462 00:23:55,580 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: Or if you're drinking. 463 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. That's true for all of that. The only place 464 00:24:00,940 --> 00:24:02,979 Speaker 3: that that is not true is when you're free from it. 465 00:24:03,740 --> 00:24:10,460 Speaker 2: That's absolutely right. I say there's only two genuine benefits 466 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 2: you can get from alcohol. One of them, if you're 467 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,070 Speaker 2: feeling bad already because of the previous withdrawal, it will 468 00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:21,230 Speaker 2: make you feel better. but it only makes you feel better, 469 00:24:21,650 --> 00:24:23,250 Speaker 2: as good as you'd felt if you'd never had the 470 00:24:23,310 --> 00:24:25,169 Speaker 2: previous drinks and you're just sort of getting back to 471 00:24:25,230 --> 00:24:29,180 Speaker 2: base level. And the only other time is when you're 472 00:24:29,220 --> 00:24:31,699 Speaker 2: craving it. You want it, you can't have it. You 473 00:24:31,740 --> 00:24:35,110 Speaker 2: might be designated driver or you're an antibiotic, so you've 474 00:24:35,130 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 2: got an early start and you're sat there. And you're 475 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,400 Speaker 2: not enjoying what's going on in front of you because 476 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,100 Speaker 2: of this thing going on in your mind. And I 477 00:24:42,180 --> 00:24:45,300 Speaker 2: say craving and people think about the real white knuckle 478 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: tears coursing down your face craving. It can be as 479 00:24:49,060 --> 00:24:52,020 Speaker 2: much as just a distraction. It can just be being 480 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 2: at a party and instead of relaxing into it, you're 481 00:24:54,420 --> 00:24:57,260 Speaker 2: kind of just not feeling too good because you would 482 00:24:57,300 --> 00:25:01,460 Speaker 2: rather be drinking. And the problem is when you go 483 00:25:01,540 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 2: away and come back, you look over it and you think, well, 484 00:25:03,980 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 2: that was a bit of a washout, that party, because 485 00:25:06,260 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 2: I wasn't drinking. So it feeds your belief that you 486 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: need alcohol to socialise. It's an interesting thing, but if 487 00:25:12,300 --> 00:25:14,340 Speaker 2: you haven't had a drink for a few days, so 488 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 2: you haven't got that residual withdrawal, if you sit and 489 00:25:18,270 --> 00:25:22,149 Speaker 2: drink what you'd normally drink, without any distraction. So on 490 00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 2: your own, no music, nothing, just sit and drink it 491 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,459 Speaker 2: just to concentrate and see what the alcohol does. It's 492 00:25:27,500 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: not actually a particularly nice feeling. You feel like confused, 493 00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:33,940 Speaker 2: a bit dulled, a bit tunnel visioned, and it's not 494 00:25:34,030 --> 00:25:35,030 Speaker 2: actually that nice. 495 00:25:35,390 --> 00:25:36,590 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, totally. 496 00:25:36,830 --> 00:25:41,550 Speaker 3: I remember taking pretty heavy duty painkiller after being free 497 00:25:41,570 --> 00:25:45,330 Speaker 3: from alcohol for like a year and literally thinking, oh 498 00:25:45,350 --> 00:25:47,850 Speaker 3: my gosh, this is horrible. And he had some codeine 499 00:25:47,890 --> 00:25:49,610 Speaker 3: in it or something. And I was like, Oh, no, 500 00:25:49,690 --> 00:25:52,250 Speaker 3: I do not want to feel like this at all. 501 00:25:52,690 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 3: Similar to like what I was like, probably drinking like, 502 00:25:56,380 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 3: you know, on a regular night. We'll be back right 503 00:25:59,660 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 3: after a quick word from our sponsors. Can I pause 504 00:26:02,580 --> 00:26:05,060 Speaker 3: this just for a moment? If you're listening to this 505 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,570 Speaker 3: and thinking, I don't want to do this alone anymore. 506 00:26:08,130 --> 00:26:10,750 Speaker 3: I want to tell you about the Love Life Sober community. 507 00:26:11,250 --> 00:26:13,790 Speaker 3: This is the space where the podcast turns into real 508 00:26:13,830 --> 00:26:17,990 Speaker 3: connection and real support. Inside the community, we gather weekly 509 00:26:18,070 --> 00:26:21,250 Speaker 3: for live connection calls where you can listen, share, or 510 00:26:21,369 --> 00:26:22,409 Speaker 3: simply just be present. 511 00:26:22,930 --> 00:26:25,330 Speaker 1: There's a beautiful leadership team who hold. 512 00:26:25,090 --> 00:26:29,109 Speaker 3: This space with wisdom and care, a dedicated prayer request area, 513 00:26:29,570 --> 00:26:33,389 Speaker 3: regular masterclasses led by expert guests, and even a worship 514 00:26:33,430 --> 00:26:36,780 Speaker 3: music playlist to help you reconnect when your nervous system 515 00:26:36,820 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 3: needs it. There's also a dedicated coaching space called True 516 00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,310 Speaker 3: Vine for women who want even deeper support. The Love 517 00:26:43,330 --> 00:26:46,090 Speaker 3: Life Sober community is a place to connect with like-minded 518 00:26:46,130 --> 00:26:48,290 Speaker 3: women and open up in a way you might not 519 00:26:48,350 --> 00:26:50,950 Speaker 3: be able to in your church or small group. This 520 00:26:51,010 --> 00:26:54,260 Speaker 3: space was specifically created for women who are questioning their 521 00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:57,100 Speaker 3: relationship with alcohol and who want the kind of freedom 522 00:26:57,180 --> 00:27:00,020 Speaker 3: that only can be found in Jesus. All the details 523 00:27:00,060 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 3: to join us are at the link in the show notes. 524 00:27:02,180 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 3: I can't wait to meet you. Let's jump back into 525 00:27:04,500 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 3: the episode. 526 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 2: That's the interesting thing because when we socialize, our brain 527 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 2: releases endorphins. Now, endorphins are naturally occurring chemical that makes 528 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,620 Speaker 2: you feel really good. You get endorphins when you exercise, 529 00:27:14,830 --> 00:27:17,290 Speaker 2: if you eat a healthy meal, when you're hungry. So 530 00:27:17,390 --> 00:27:21,469 Speaker 2: social interaction, your brain releases endorphins. Now, the problem is 531 00:27:21,550 --> 00:27:26,600 Speaker 2: because we quite often drink alcohol while we're socializing, the 532 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 2: pleasure we're experiencing is only part alcohol. Most of it 533 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 2: is actually the endorphins. Yeah. 534 00:27:33,220 --> 00:27:34,140 Speaker 1: Yeah. The endorphins. 535 00:27:34,180 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 3: And then also like there's that whole when you end 536 00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 3: up being, you know, hooked on it, it's that pleasure 537 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,220 Speaker 3: comes even when you're anticipating having the drink, right? There's 538 00:27:45,260 --> 00:27:48,310 Speaker 3: like science to show that like receptors are starting to 539 00:27:48,350 --> 00:27:50,890 Speaker 3: light off. I read in an article when this guy 540 00:27:50,910 --> 00:27:52,850 Speaker 3: like passed the pub that he would go to, it 541 00:27:52,910 --> 00:27:56,490 Speaker 3: was like that feeling started even before the drink was 542 00:27:56,750 --> 00:27:59,929 Speaker 3: in his mouth because of how the brain works. 543 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:04,540 Speaker 2: Yeah, we humans can imagine and anticipate if you were 544 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 2: told you were going to be tortured to death tomorrow, 545 00:28:06,910 --> 00:28:08,890 Speaker 2: but you can do whatever you like tonight, you wouldn't 546 00:28:08,930 --> 00:28:12,290 Speaker 2: enjoy the night because you're anticipating what's to come tomorrow. 547 00:28:12,770 --> 00:28:15,390 Speaker 2: Whereas an animal wouldn't have that. They've got no concept 548 00:28:15,470 --> 00:28:18,950 Speaker 2: of imagining something. So you're completely right. We can enjoy 549 00:28:19,020 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 2: things by anticipation. 550 00:28:21,220 --> 00:28:23,919 Speaker 3: Let's talk a little bit about sleep. Like we mentioned 551 00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,580 Speaker 3: the 3am wake up. I talked about this a little 552 00:28:26,619 --> 00:28:28,699 Speaker 3: bit in my book, but you go really into it. 553 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:32,320 Speaker 3: And I quoted you in my book about how we're 554 00:28:32,340 --> 00:28:35,609 Speaker 3: basically being anesthetized, right? And so can you talk a 555 00:28:35,619 --> 00:28:38,490 Speaker 3: little bit because I really had that belief that a 556 00:28:38,530 --> 00:28:41,510 Speaker 3: massive glass or three of like red wine would help 557 00:28:41,550 --> 00:28:41,970 Speaker 3: me sleep. 558 00:28:42,110 --> 00:28:42,330 Speaker 2: Right. 559 00:28:42,450 --> 00:28:45,100 Speaker 3: And and when I started to get the good sleep again, 560 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 3: it was the first like realization of, oh, maybe alcohol 561 00:28:49,460 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 3: is not doing the thing I'm drinking it for. 562 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,980 Speaker 2: Absolutely. So when you and I, we don't drink. So 563 00:28:55,090 --> 00:28:57,030 Speaker 2: when we go to reaches the end of the day, 564 00:28:57,110 --> 00:29:00,590 Speaker 2: our brain naturally starts to close things down. You know, 565 00:29:00,610 --> 00:29:02,870 Speaker 2: people quite often talk about sleep hygiene. You keep the 566 00:29:02,930 --> 00:29:07,490 Speaker 2: lights low, no white screen, quiet, et cetera, et cetera. 567 00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:10,100 Speaker 2: All you're really doing there is sending the message to 568 00:29:10,130 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: your brain, day's done, time to start winding down. And 569 00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 2: as I say, your brain naturally starts to close things 570 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,050 Speaker 2: down and you drift into a natural environment. healthy restorative 571 00:29:20,110 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 2: sleep because alcohol is a sedative it anesthetizes you it 572 00:29:24,180 --> 00:29:26,540 Speaker 2: depresses you and again not as in makes you unhappy 573 00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 2: although it does do that but just shuts down nerve 574 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,830 Speaker 2: activity so if you're drinking regularly your brain stops going 575 00:29:33,870 --> 00:29:36,050 Speaker 2: through that closing down process at the end of the 576 00:29:36,110 --> 00:29:38,930 Speaker 2: day it doesn't need to do it because it knows 577 00:29:38,950 --> 00:29:40,910 Speaker 2: that there's going to be this sedative coming in that 578 00:29:40,930 --> 00:29:43,370 Speaker 2: will kickstart it for it. So it doesn't need to 579 00:29:43,410 --> 00:29:47,230 Speaker 2: do anything. Now, the problem there is if you're drinking 580 00:29:47,290 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 2: regularly and then you suddenly have a day off, you'll 581 00:29:50,430 --> 00:29:53,620 Speaker 2: find it incredibly difficult to go to sleep. So it 582 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,060 Speaker 2: stops going through that closing down process. So if you 583 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: stop drinking on day one, You'll find it almost impossible 584 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,460 Speaker 2: to get to sleep because your brain is just not 585 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 2: doing what it needs to do. You need to wait 586 00:30:04,290 --> 00:30:07,630 Speaker 2: a few days for your brain to again adapt to 587 00:30:07,650 --> 00:30:10,730 Speaker 2: there not being alcohol to put you into that natural 588 00:30:10,870 --> 00:30:14,370 Speaker 2: restorative sleep. But the problem with people who are regularly drinking, 589 00:30:14,390 --> 00:30:16,830 Speaker 2: a lot of the time they don't stop long enough. 590 00:30:17,210 --> 00:30:18,830 Speaker 2: They don't stop for a week. They just stop for 591 00:30:18,850 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 2: a day here or there. That very much feeds their 592 00:30:21,540 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 2: belief system that they need alcohol to sleep because their 593 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,810 Speaker 2: understanding of it, their experience of it is, I get 594 00:30:27,850 --> 00:30:31,070 Speaker 2: to sleep okay when I'm drinking alcohol, but when I stop, 595 00:30:31,150 --> 00:30:33,610 Speaker 2: I just can't sleep all night. And their assumption is 596 00:30:34,410 --> 00:30:36,270 Speaker 2: that's what would happen. So if I stop drinking for 597 00:30:36,290 --> 00:30:38,230 Speaker 2: a year, I just won't sleep for a year. It 598 00:30:38,310 --> 00:30:42,230 Speaker 2: does correct itself quite rapidly, but it feeds into that 599 00:30:42,270 --> 00:30:45,470 Speaker 2: belief system that I need alcohol to sleep. Yeah. 600 00:30:45,550 --> 00:30:47,390 Speaker 3: And I think there's something to be said too for 601 00:30:47,490 --> 00:30:50,130 Speaker 3: like quality versus quantity, right? 602 00:30:50,370 --> 00:30:51,990 Speaker 1: My 16-year-old got up last night. 603 00:30:52,010 --> 00:30:55,030 Speaker 3: She was worried about something about her GCSEs and So 604 00:30:55,090 --> 00:30:56,770 Speaker 3: I was like comforting her in the middle of the night. 605 00:30:56,790 --> 00:31:00,310 Speaker 1: I have so much less sleep today, but I'm okay. Right? 606 00:31:00,350 --> 00:31:03,580 Speaker 3: Because at least what I did get was proper REM rest. 607 00:31:04,060 --> 00:31:04,620 Speaker 1: Yeah. 608 00:31:05,020 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 2: So this is another thing, and I can't emphasize it 609 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:10,140 Speaker 2: strongly enough, really, but there is a whole world of 610 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:18,050 Speaker 2: difference between sleep and alcohol-induced unconsciousness. So they're two totally 611 00:31:18,090 --> 00:31:21,690 Speaker 2: different things. When you sleep, you go through specific sleep cycles. 612 00:31:21,750 --> 00:31:24,850 Speaker 2: So you mentioned REM, that's rapid eye movement sleep. And 613 00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:27,070 Speaker 2: the reason it's called that is because your eye moves, 614 00:31:27,150 --> 00:31:29,910 Speaker 2: even though your eyes shut. When they monitor people in 615 00:31:30,010 --> 00:31:33,270 Speaker 2: REM sleep, their brain lights up almost as if they're 616 00:31:33,310 --> 00:31:35,670 Speaker 2: fully awake. Okay, so it's a strange part of the 617 00:31:35,710 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 2: sleep cycle where you're almost fully awake, where your brain's 618 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 2: really lit up, although you're still unconscious. And it's when 619 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 2: we dream. Right at the other end of the scale, 620 00:31:43,580 --> 00:31:47,340 Speaker 2: there's deep sleep, where you're very deeply unconscious. You kind 621 00:31:47,380 --> 00:31:50,300 Speaker 2: of imagine when you're sleeping almost like a plane gliding 622 00:31:50,340 --> 00:31:53,010 Speaker 2: up and down through the different parts of the atmosphere. 623 00:31:53,050 --> 00:31:56,030 Speaker 2: That's what you do. Now, when you drink alcohol, because 624 00:31:56,070 --> 00:31:59,250 Speaker 2: it's a sedative, your brain can't get into REM sleep. 625 00:31:59,350 --> 00:32:02,610 Speaker 2: It fails completely. And even the deep sleep, it's not 626 00:32:02,690 --> 00:32:05,850 Speaker 2: proper deep sleep. It's more akin to unconsciousness than actual 627 00:32:05,890 --> 00:32:10,090 Speaker 2: restorative sleep. And that's why the biggest reported symptom of 628 00:32:10,130 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 2: a hangover is tiredness. Impossible to drink alcohol now. and 629 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:17,220 Speaker 2: sleep as well as if you weren't drinking it. And 630 00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 2: even one or two drinks will interrupt that sleep cycle. Obviously, 631 00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 2: the more you drink, the worse it is, which is 632 00:32:23,740 --> 00:32:28,250 Speaker 2: really torturous because when people are drinking regularly, they're tired. 633 00:32:28,270 --> 00:32:31,110 Speaker 2: They're really tired. They want to sleep. But the problem 634 00:32:31,230 --> 00:32:34,470 Speaker 2: is when they stop, they sleep even less. And I 635 00:32:34,510 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 2: think that's one of the big barriers to people stopping. 636 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,780 Speaker 2: It's because they're tired. They're tired because they're drinking and 637 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:42,459 Speaker 2: they're not getting proper sleep. And the only way to 638 00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:46,220 Speaker 2: remedy that is to stop drinking. But equally, when they stop, 639 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:48,959 Speaker 2: like I said before, they don't get to sleep. And 640 00:32:48,980 --> 00:32:50,980 Speaker 2: this is one of the things where I spoke about 641 00:32:51,020 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 2: right at the beginning. One of the understanding and beliefs 642 00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,140 Speaker 2: that allowed me to quit was understanding, for example, that 643 00:32:58,180 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 2: it's not going to be good for a few days. 644 00:32:59,740 --> 00:33:02,900 Speaker 2: But when I come out the other side, I'll finally, 645 00:33:02,980 --> 00:33:05,060 Speaker 2: after all this time, get decent sleep. 646 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:05,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 647 00:33:05,980 --> 00:33:07,940 Speaker 3: And I think, too, it's important to point out that 648 00:33:07,980 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 3: that process looks so different for everybody, right? Like when 649 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,260 Speaker 3: I was back doing this almost six years ago, I 650 00:33:15,980 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 3: literally slept like a dead person because I think my 651 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 3: body was like, you haven't slept in a very long time. 652 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:22,740 Speaker 1: And so I was dead. 653 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:24,420 Speaker 3: And then I and then it was like, and then 654 00:33:24,460 --> 00:33:26,420 Speaker 3: my sleep was all over the map for a couple weeks, 655 00:33:26,500 --> 00:33:27,500 Speaker 3: and then it regulated. 656 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 1: But I had a gal in one of. 657 00:33:29,620 --> 00:33:32,180 Speaker 3: My 40 day fast, she's like four or five days 658 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,310 Speaker 3: alcohol free. And she's like, I'm just I can't sleep. 659 00:33:34,370 --> 00:33:37,570 Speaker 3: I'm like, babe, stick with it. Stick with it for 660 00:33:37,710 --> 00:33:39,170 Speaker 3: every reason that you just said. 661 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 2: It goes the other way as well. So what happens 662 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:44,600 Speaker 2: when you stop drinking, there'll be a few days where 663 00:33:44,620 --> 00:33:47,260 Speaker 2: you find it very hard to sleep. But like you've 664 00:33:47,340 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 2: pointed out, after that, people go the other way and 665 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 2: they will be tired. They'll be sleeping loads and loads 666 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,540 Speaker 2: and loads. And that period does end. It does go on. 667 00:33:56,350 --> 00:34:00,670 Speaker 2: Most I've ever come across anyone suffering from that period 668 00:34:00,710 --> 00:34:02,890 Speaker 2: was four months. So that's a long time. 669 00:34:02,970 --> 00:34:03,170 Speaker 3: Yeah. 670 00:34:03,770 --> 00:34:05,710 Speaker 2: Most people, it's a few weeks. They go for a 671 00:34:05,770 --> 00:34:07,780 Speaker 2: few nights they can't sleep and then a few weeks 672 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 2: where they're really tired all the time. Again, trust the 673 00:34:10,620 --> 00:34:13,660 Speaker 2: system because when you come out the other side, you 674 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,060 Speaker 2: will be waking up feeling better than you have done 675 00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:18,459 Speaker 2: since you started drinking. 676 00:34:18,660 --> 00:34:21,100 Speaker 1: And that alone for me was worth. 677 00:34:22,219 --> 00:34:22,390 Speaker 3: It. 678 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,310 Speaker 2: Waking up fully recuperated from a night's sleep, there is 679 00:34:27,370 --> 00:34:28,110 Speaker 2: no better feeling. 680 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:28,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 681 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 2: So it's not like you could take a drug and then, 682 00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:33,779 Speaker 2: you know, a few hours later, you're coming down from 683 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: it and feeling awful for a few days. There's no 684 00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:37,580 Speaker 2: downside to good sleep. 685 00:34:37,860 --> 00:34:39,779 Speaker 1: So that like sets us up for kind of my 686 00:34:39,820 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: last question. 687 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 3: I would just love to talk a little bit about 688 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,489 Speaker 3: fading effect bias, because I think when you're in that 689 00:34:45,570 --> 00:34:49,109 Speaker 3: process of like maybe the good, you know, the pink 690 00:34:49,150 --> 00:34:50,770 Speaker 3: cloud or whatever you want to call it, or the 691 00:34:50,810 --> 00:34:53,250 Speaker 3: good sleep wears off and you've had a bad night 692 00:34:53,290 --> 00:34:57,260 Speaker 3: and you're romanticizing what that glass of rosé will taste 693 00:34:57,300 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 3: like on vacation or whatever it is. 694 00:35:00,020 --> 00:35:01,660 Speaker 1: Talk about what that really is. 695 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:07,920 Speaker 2: So fading effect bias, it's a psychological trait in human 696 00:35:07,980 --> 00:35:12,940 Speaker 2: beings whereby we tend to think more positively about past 697 00:35:12,980 --> 00:35:16,359 Speaker 2: events than they actually occurred. So there's this, and it's 698 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,319 Speaker 2: not just we in the West, it's people all over 699 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,580 Speaker 2: the world. Every human being has this tendency to, to 700 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,740 Speaker 2: look back on past events more positively than when they happened. 701 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,300 Speaker 2: If you question someone about a past event, they usually 702 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,100 Speaker 2: will make it out to be better than it was. 703 00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,760 Speaker 2: And again, this is nostalgia. It's the good old days. 704 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:37,549 Speaker 2: It was better in my day kind of thing. It's 705 00:35:37,610 --> 00:35:40,270 Speaker 2: all that. We look back. No one really knows why 706 00:35:40,310 --> 00:35:43,549 Speaker 2: it's there, but the prevailing theory is that it just 707 00:35:43,650 --> 00:35:46,069 Speaker 2: helps you maintain a more positive outlook on life just 708 00:35:46,170 --> 00:35:48,890 Speaker 2: by looking back positively on things, which is all well 709 00:35:48,910 --> 00:35:51,130 Speaker 2: and good. But the problem is it's not good when 710 00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 2: it comes to drug addiction and drinking. If we take, 711 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:58,540 Speaker 2: for example, an average drink, okay, so let's assume for 712 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,339 Speaker 2: the minute you enjoy the effect of alcohol, you think 713 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,550 Speaker 2: there's something positive to it. When you have that drink, 714 00:36:03,590 --> 00:36:06,890 Speaker 2: you maybe get 15, 20 minutes. And then after that, 715 00:36:06,950 --> 00:36:10,089 Speaker 2: it turns into that feeling of anxiety. It spoils your 716 00:36:10,150 --> 00:36:13,489 Speaker 2: night's sleep. You've got raised anxiety the next day. And 717 00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:15,980 Speaker 2: it also, we haven't even spoken about, but it increases 718 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,569 Speaker 2: your blood pressure and heart rate. those two things make 719 00:36:19,590 --> 00:36:21,669 Speaker 2: you feel heavy and lethargic because when your heart rate 720 00:36:21,690 --> 00:36:24,170 Speaker 2: goes up your brain tries to calm things down by 721 00:36:24,210 --> 00:36:26,870 Speaker 2: making you feel tired and heavy so you have in 722 00:36:26,890 --> 00:36:30,250 Speaker 2: a 24-hour period you have maybe 15 minutes of pleasure 723 00:36:30,310 --> 00:36:32,870 Speaker 2: and the entire rest of it's unpleasant of course you 724 00:36:32,890 --> 00:36:35,660 Speaker 2: might drink more than one in which case you elongate 725 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:38,779 Speaker 2: the in inverted commas pleasure but then the downside you 726 00:36:38,820 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 2: get worse hangover the next day so if you think 727 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:47,030 Speaker 2: that drinking alcohol is maybe 5% of the enjoyable and 95% 728 00:36:47,030 --> 00:36:49,569 Speaker 2: of the bad sleep, the dragging yourself around the next day. 729 00:36:49,830 --> 00:36:52,750 Speaker 2: But when you think back on it, the 5% you 730 00:36:52,790 --> 00:36:54,509 Speaker 2: treat the anger, you don't think about waking up in 731 00:36:54,530 --> 00:36:56,390 Speaker 2: the middle of the night feeling awful. You don't think 732 00:36:56,430 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 2: about waking up in the morning feeling more tired than 733 00:36:58,820 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 2: you went to bed and dreading having to face the 734 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:05,219 Speaker 2: day again. You think about sitting back having that, like 735 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,340 Speaker 2: you say, glass of rose on holiday or whatever it 736 00:37:07,380 --> 00:37:11,089 Speaker 2: might be. And that's it. It is a significant problem 737 00:37:11,110 --> 00:37:13,709 Speaker 2: because what people will find is even when they manage 738 00:37:13,730 --> 00:37:18,049 Speaker 2: to quit, they will start then romanticizing alcohol and a 739 00:37:18,090 --> 00:37:20,310 Speaker 2: natural tendency for you to think back on it and think, oh, 740 00:37:20,330 --> 00:37:21,709 Speaker 2: that was nice. I used to enjoy that. 741 00:37:22,110 --> 00:37:25,290 Speaker 3: So how do you tell people that ask you about this? 742 00:37:25,310 --> 00:37:28,489 Speaker 3: I mean, obviously becoming aware of it and knowing it's 743 00:37:28,510 --> 00:37:30,950 Speaker 3: a possibility, it's a very good possibility that's going to 744 00:37:31,330 --> 00:37:33,230 Speaker 3: rear its ugly head at some point. What do you 745 00:37:33,290 --> 00:37:35,930 Speaker 3: tell people then about how to get over that? 746 00:37:36,469 --> 00:37:39,850 Speaker 2: So I say you need to watch out for these thoughts. 747 00:37:40,090 --> 00:37:42,510 Speaker 2: And when they jump up, you just need to understand 748 00:37:42,550 --> 00:37:45,310 Speaker 2: what they are. Like I say, look at the reality. 749 00:37:45,410 --> 00:37:47,830 Speaker 2: So you'll be walking along in your path. So, you know, 750 00:37:48,350 --> 00:37:50,310 Speaker 2: summer and a pub and you'll think, oh, I'll be 751 00:37:50,450 --> 00:37:53,310 Speaker 2: really enjoyed that time. And you just remember that there's 752 00:37:53,330 --> 00:37:55,650 Speaker 2: more to it. There's all the downside that comes out 753 00:37:55,690 --> 00:37:58,410 Speaker 2: the other side. I didn't do this deliberately when I 754 00:37:58,469 --> 00:38:01,810 Speaker 2: stopped drinking. But when I finally stopped, I remember looking 755 00:38:01,850 --> 00:38:03,730 Speaker 2: at drinks and sometimes wanting one. And I used to 756 00:38:03,810 --> 00:38:06,590 Speaker 2: say to myself, you can have one, but you need 757 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:09,180 Speaker 2: to accept the reality of what you're doing, which means 758 00:38:09,219 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 2: waking up at four in the morning. So whenever I 759 00:38:11,500 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 2: looked at a drink, I'd say to myself, do you 760 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,780 Speaker 2: really want that? Bearing in mind, you'll be lying awake 761 00:38:15,820 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 2: in a few hours riddled with anxiety. And I think 762 00:38:18,660 --> 00:38:21,940 Speaker 2: I just conditioned myself differently. It was almost like, you know, 763 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,259 Speaker 2: if you've got a dog and you make a loud 764 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:26,259 Speaker 2: noise and scare them whenever they do something they stop 765 00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:28,620 Speaker 2: doing it and it just when i think about alcohol 766 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,989 Speaker 2: i don't think about sitting there happy drinking i think 767 00:38:32,030 --> 00:38:34,650 Speaker 2: about those three four a.m wake-ups and how awful it 768 00:38:34,690 --> 00:38:37,880 Speaker 2: was so it's just about sticking with the reality yeah. 769 00:38:37,820 --> 00:38:41,879 Speaker 1: Yeah Thank you so much, William. I just so appreciate you. 770 00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:44,610 Speaker 1: Can you tell the gals where to find your books? 771 00:38:44,780 --> 00:38:46,820 Speaker 1: And I'll link it in the show notes as well. 772 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,959 Speaker 2: Best place to start is probably the website, which is alcoholexplained.com. 773 00:38:51,020 --> 00:38:53,400 Speaker 2: And the first five chapters of the first book are 774 00:38:53,460 --> 00:38:55,860 Speaker 2: on there. So if you're interested, you can read through them. 775 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 2: And there's links to Instagram and Facebook and everything from there. 776 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: Amazing. And there's a workbook as well now, right? 777 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,299 Speaker 2: There is a workbook. Yeah, there's a workbook. Yeah. 778 00:39:04,780 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: That's so awesome. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. 779 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 1: I appreciate you. 780 00:39:09,650 --> 00:39:11,210 Speaker 2: It's lovely to see you again yeah. 781 00:39:11,050 --> 00:39:14,450 Speaker 3: You too so helpful all right gals we will see 782 00:39:14,469 --> 00:39:17,299 Speaker 3: you next week thank you for spending this time with 783 00:39:17,340 --> 00:39:20,740 Speaker 3: me on love life sober if today's conversation stirred something 784 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,100 Speaker 3: in your heart don't rush past it take it to 785 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,570 Speaker 3: prayer if you're feeling ready for deeper connection and support 786 00:39:26,969 --> 00:39:29,150 Speaker 3: i'd love to invite you into the love life sober 787 00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:33,180 Speaker 3: community a grace filled, shame free space where real connection 788 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 3: grows and lasting change takes root. You can find the 789 00:39:36,660 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 3: link to join us in the show notes. Love Life 790 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,500 Speaker 3: Sober is part of the Life Audio Podcast Network, where 791 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,220 Speaker 3: faith centered podcasts help you grow deeper in your walk 792 00:39:46,260 --> 00:39:50,950 Speaker 3: with Christ. You can find more faith-centered podcasts at lifeaudio.com. 793 00:39:51,510 --> 00:39:55,029 Speaker 3: Until next time, be gentle with yourself, stay curious, and 794 00:39:55,070 --> 00:39:56,150 Speaker 3: trust God's promises. 795 00:39:56,650 --> 00:39:58,009 Speaker 1: He has freedom waiting for you.