1
00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:25,820
Speaker 1: Welcome to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager. Here thousands of

2
00:00:25,860 --> 00:00:29,460
Speaker 1: hours of Dennis's lectures courses in classic radio programs. Had

3
00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:41,340
Speaker 1: to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles, go to Dennisprager dot com.

4
00:00:41,700 --> 00:00:45,979
Speaker 2: The book that I am featuring now is rather remarkable.

5
00:00:46,820 --> 00:00:52,339
Speaker 2: It is written by a major Danish diplomat and newspaper person.

6
00:00:52,540 --> 00:00:55,900
Speaker 2: He is, in fact the editor in chief of the

7
00:00:55,980 --> 00:01:00,700
Speaker 2: leading a Danish newspaper, Politiquan, and as well as a

8
00:01:00,940 --> 00:01:06,500
Speaker 2: major diplomat in the Danish Diplomatic Corps. His name is

9
00:01:06,540 --> 00:01:11,220
Speaker 2: Bo Lidigard, and that is l I. D. E Gaard.

10
00:01:12,340 --> 00:01:15,500
Speaker 2: And mister Lidigard has written a book of Danish history.

11
00:01:15,540 --> 00:01:20,500
Speaker 2: And you might say, hmm, Dennis, we find your interest

12
00:01:20,780 --> 00:01:23,140
Speaker 2: in all these things remarkable, but why would you pick

13
00:01:23,140 --> 00:01:26,700
Speaker 2: a book on Danish history there are over two hundred countries. Well,

14
00:01:27,860 --> 00:01:32,820
Speaker 2: this is actually a remarkable chapter in Danish and world history.

15
00:01:33,220 --> 00:01:39,020
Speaker 2: The book is titled Simply Countrymen, that is, fellow members

16
00:01:39,060 --> 00:01:42,100
Speaker 2: of my country. And here is what it's about. Here

17
00:01:42,180 --> 00:01:46,860
Speaker 2: is the subtitle The Untold Story of How Denmark's Jews

18
00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:51,100
Speaker 2: escaped the Nazis of the courage of their fellow Danes.

19
00:01:51,940 --> 00:01:56,380
Speaker 2: And of the extraordinary role of the SS, the SS

20
00:01:56,420 --> 00:02:00,580
Speaker 2: of course being the security agency and the real terror

21
00:02:00,700 --> 00:02:06,220
Speaker 2: group of the Nazis. And it is it's quite a book.

22
00:02:06,580 --> 00:02:10,780
Speaker 2: And mister Litiguard, welcome to the Dennis Prager Show. I know,

23
00:02:12,780 --> 00:02:16,419
Speaker 2: I know, it's really remarkable because I just had ascertained

24
00:02:16,500 --> 00:02:21,260
Speaker 2: mister Litigard is pulled over in his car in the

25
00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:25,179
Speaker 2: middle of Denmark. This is this is the world in

26
00:02:25,260 --> 00:02:28,620
Speaker 2: which we live now, and it's it's it's I never

27
00:02:28,980 --> 00:02:32,580
Speaker 2: ceased to be amazed by it. Uh, the first and

28
00:02:32,660 --> 00:02:34,980
Speaker 2: most I don't know if it's the most obvious question,

29
00:02:35,060 --> 00:02:37,220
Speaker 2: but it is to me, there is there is so

30
00:02:37,340 --> 00:02:41,820
Speaker 2: much written on the Holocaust. Why has this one of

31
00:02:41,860 --> 00:02:46,139
Speaker 2: the only bright chapters in that utter darkness? Why was

32
00:02:46,180 --> 00:02:47,860
Speaker 2: this not written before you did it?

33
00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:54,980
Speaker 3: Well, I guess it's for the very reason that this

34
00:02:55,180 --> 00:03:00,020
Speaker 3: is the exception. This is the one instance that is

35
00:03:00,060 --> 00:03:06,660
Speaker 3: standing out as in the country and the situation where

36
00:03:07,340 --> 00:03:13,020
Speaker 3: everything that happens in all other countries occupied and controlled

37
00:03:13,020 --> 00:03:18,300
Speaker 3: by the Nazis did not happen. And for a long

38
00:03:18,340 --> 00:03:23,660
Speaker 3: time there's been this notion that the Danes just helped

39
00:03:24,220 --> 00:03:29,500
Speaker 3: that Jewish fellow countrymen because the Danes are good, and

40
00:03:29,580 --> 00:03:32,580
Speaker 3: I guess it has taken quite a while to realize

41
00:03:32,620 --> 00:03:36,100
Speaker 3: that that is not a real good explanation, and that

42
00:03:36,180 --> 00:03:40,500
Speaker 3: the really interesting thing about this story is that everyone

43
00:03:41,180 --> 00:03:46,700
Speaker 3: behaved differently here, the Nazis, the Danes, and the Danish Jews,

44
00:03:47,660 --> 00:03:52,940
Speaker 3: and it's that dynamic. Why were everything so different in Denmark?

45
00:03:53,420 --> 00:03:57,140
Speaker 3: This is the dynamic that I'm trying to explain in

46
00:03:57,220 --> 00:03:57,580
Speaker 3: the book.

47
00:03:58,340 --> 00:04:01,660
Speaker 2: Boy, and am I interested because I have always said

48
00:04:01,700 --> 00:04:05,340
Speaker 2: that I have told my listeners frequently that I think

49
00:04:05,500 --> 00:04:07,900
Speaker 2: goodness is a bigger riddle than evil.

50
00:04:08,820 --> 00:04:15,980
Speaker 3: So this go on, I agree, And to me, learning

51
00:04:16,060 --> 00:04:19,580
Speaker 3: from this part of history in a way is, as

52
00:04:19,620 --> 00:04:23,180
Speaker 3: you said in your introduction, the more important story to learn,

53
00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:28,780
Speaker 3: because one thing is to understand how the Holocaust happened.

54
00:04:28,820 --> 00:04:32,940
Speaker 3: To me, that is important, it's important to remember. But

55
00:04:33,140 --> 00:04:37,300
Speaker 3: if we can also try to understand what made it

56
00:04:37,660 --> 00:04:41,060
Speaker 3: not happen, that might be a lesson that we are

57
00:04:41,060 --> 00:04:44,060
Speaker 3: more eager to learn. And this is the lesson I'm

58
00:04:44,060 --> 00:04:48,060
Speaker 3: trying to outline in this narrative.

59
00:04:48,220 --> 00:04:51,740
Speaker 2: Yes, that's why it's so interesting and so important. I

60
00:04:51,860 --> 00:04:56,260
Speaker 2: just would like to add, for the sake of historical accuracy,

61
00:04:56,820 --> 00:05:01,180
Speaker 2: that there was I believe one other nation that did

62
00:05:01,300 --> 00:05:03,980
Speaker 2: save its Jews, though in a very very different way

63
00:05:04,020 --> 00:05:05,860
Speaker 2: than the way in which the Danes did, and that's

64
00:05:05,900 --> 00:05:06,780
Speaker 2: the Bulgarians.

65
00:05:07,820 --> 00:05:10,820
Speaker 3: And so that is that curate, That is accurate. The

66
00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:17,820
Speaker 3: difference being there that all the messures introduced to separate

67
00:05:18,420 --> 00:05:22,860
Speaker 3: the Jews from the rest of the society. This happened

68
00:05:22,900 --> 00:05:28,500
Speaker 3: in Bulgaria, but eventually the deportations did not take place,

69
00:05:29,340 --> 00:05:32,940
Speaker 3: and that saved the Bulgarian Jews. That's absolutely true.

70
00:05:33,260 --> 00:05:40,140
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, So you've now written about this, and I

71
00:05:40,300 --> 00:05:45,099
Speaker 2: have my own series of questions here and I guess

72
00:05:45,140 --> 00:05:48,179
Speaker 2: the again, one obvious one is there were only about

73
00:05:48,220 --> 00:05:50,860
Speaker 2: eight thousand Jews in Denmark? Is that correct?

74
00:05:51,980 --> 00:05:54,020
Speaker 3: Yes? That was the number.

75
00:05:55,220 --> 00:05:57,219
Speaker 2: Is the small okay, go on.

76
00:05:59,140 --> 00:06:04,700
Speaker 3: The eight thousand Jews living in Denmark really were three

77
00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:10,580
Speaker 3: very different groups. There were a great number of Jewish

78
00:06:10,620 --> 00:06:13,740
Speaker 3: families who have been living in the Danish society for

79
00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:19,779
Speaker 3: many generations and who were extremely well integrated into the

80
00:06:19,820 --> 00:06:25,659
Speaker 3: surrounding society. Then there was a somewhat smaller group of

81
00:06:26,540 --> 00:06:31,980
Speaker 3: refugees who had been arriving from Eastern Europe and Russia

82
00:06:32,860 --> 00:06:37,500
Speaker 3: in the late eighteenth century and early nineteenth century. Early

83
00:06:37,620 --> 00:06:41,500
Speaker 3: twentieth century, and who had been there only for about

84
00:06:42,780 --> 00:06:46,659
Speaker 3: four decades. And then there was an even smaller group

85
00:06:47,700 --> 00:06:53,460
Speaker 3: of German refugees, German Jews, who had managed to escape

86
00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:59,180
Speaker 3: to Denmark following the Nazi persecution, even though Denmark, like

87
00:06:59,220 --> 00:07:05,180
Speaker 3: other countries neighboring Germany, were conducting a very rigid policy

88
00:07:05,500 --> 00:07:09,460
Speaker 3: trying to avoid a major influx on refugees. So these

89
00:07:09,460 --> 00:07:12,620
Speaker 3: were the three components, and they were very different in

90
00:07:12,700 --> 00:07:17,740
Speaker 3: positioned in Danish society, because one was very integrated and

91
00:07:17,780 --> 00:07:20,940
Speaker 3: the two others much less so.

92
00:07:20,940 --> 00:07:27,620
Speaker 2: So the question that I was about to pose is

93
00:07:27,620 --> 00:07:32,140
Speaker 2: is the small number, the very small number of Jews,

94
00:07:32,740 --> 00:07:37,700
Speaker 2: does that make it difficult to learn any lessons from

95
00:07:38,140 --> 00:07:39,860
Speaker 2: the Danish saving of the Jews.

96
00:07:42,340 --> 00:07:46,860
Speaker 3: I don't think so, because the two other European countries

97
00:07:48,060 --> 00:07:55,980
Speaker 3: that somewhat compare to Denmark would be our neighboring country, Norway,

98
00:07:56,900 --> 00:07:59,820
Speaker 3: which was occupied on the same dates as Denmark in

99
00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:05,740
Speaker 3: April nineteen forty, and the Netherlands very close by and

100
00:08:05,860 --> 00:08:10,300
Speaker 3: occupied one month later, all of them in Northern Europe,

101
00:08:11,100 --> 00:08:16,220
Speaker 3: all of them where the established democracies, all of them

102
00:08:16,580 --> 00:08:22,660
Speaker 3: at the outset treated equally by the Nazes. The Jewish

103
00:08:22,740 --> 00:08:30,220
Speaker 3: populations in these three countries was very uneven. In Norway

104
00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:34,140
Speaker 3: you had some two thousand Jews. In Denmark, as you mentioned,

105
00:08:34,260 --> 00:08:39,940
Speaker 3: eight thousand, and in the Netherlands way over one hundred thousands.

106
00:08:41,420 --> 00:08:45,420
Speaker 3: And the state of these Jewish populations were very different.

107
00:08:46,420 --> 00:08:51,219
Speaker 3: In the Netherlands more than three quarters were killed, in

108
00:08:51,260 --> 00:08:55,740
Speaker 3: Norway more than a third of the much smaller number

109
00:08:56,100 --> 00:09:01,420
Speaker 3: were killed. And in Denmark very few were killed. So

110
00:09:01,460 --> 00:09:03,660
Speaker 3: it doesn't seem to be a function of the number.

111
00:09:04,700 --> 00:09:08,260
Speaker 2: Yeah, the number would be relative to Norway. One hundred

112
00:09:08,340 --> 00:09:11,740
Speaker 2: thousand is way more than eight thousand, obviously, and I

113
00:09:11,780 --> 00:09:14,860
Speaker 2: will ask you about your thoughts on Holland and for

114
00:09:15,020 --> 00:09:18,980
Speaker 2: my listeners who don't remember this. And Frank was a

115
00:09:19,100 --> 00:09:22,900
Speaker 2: Dutch Jew, so the fate of Dutch jewelry is fairly

116
00:09:23,460 --> 00:09:27,220
Speaker 2: well known, at least in terms of one family, which

117
00:09:27,260 --> 00:09:31,660
Speaker 2: of course was informed to the Nazis upon by a Dutchman.

118
00:09:32,020 --> 00:09:34,660
Speaker 2: I don't know to this day, of course, nobody knows.

119
00:09:35,620 --> 00:09:39,740
Speaker 2: I think nobody knows who that Dutchman was. So in

120
00:09:39,820 --> 00:09:44,460
Speaker 2: Danish society, we know that in Norway you had pro Nazis.

121
00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:47,219
Speaker 2: In fact, you had the fizzling regime. That's where you

122
00:09:47,260 --> 00:09:50,900
Speaker 2: get the name Kizzling as a trader in Holland. You

123
00:09:50,980 --> 00:09:56,900
Speaker 2: had a very active Dutch Nazi movement in Denmark. Were

124
00:09:56,940 --> 00:10:00,699
Speaker 2: there people who or is there any movement pro Nazi?

125
00:10:01,140 --> 00:10:04,460
Speaker 2: I'll be back in a moment. This is what I

126
00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:08,340
Speaker 2: call a history. Our Countryman is the name of the book.

127
00:10:08,940 --> 00:10:13,500
Speaker 2: Beau Lidegarde, the editor in chief of the leading newspaper

128
00:10:13,620 --> 00:10:18,260
Speaker 2: in Denmark and a diplomat for his country's foreign service,

129
00:10:18,300 --> 00:10:22,420
Speaker 2: has written the book Old Story of How Denmark's Jews

130
00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:25,780
Speaker 2: escaped the Nazis. Countryman is the book. It is up

131
00:10:25,820 --> 00:10:46,260
Speaker 2: at Dennis Praguer dot com. We resume momentarily. Hello, my friends,

132
00:10:46,260 --> 00:10:53,819
Speaker 2: Dennis Prager. Here, I am speaking with a very prominent

133
00:10:53,980 --> 00:10:57,220
Speaker 2: Dane who is in his car pulled over on the

134
00:10:57,260 --> 00:11:01,580
Speaker 2: side of a road in the middle of Denmark courtesy

135
00:11:01,820 --> 00:11:06,980
Speaker 2: of telecommunications on planet Earth at our time. He's the

136
00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:11,700
Speaker 2: editor in chief of his country's leading newspaper, Politiken, and

137
00:11:11,780 --> 00:11:15,459
Speaker 2: he is also a distinguished member of his country's foreign

138
00:11:15,540 --> 00:11:19,339
Speaker 2: service Bulliti guard l I d E g a ar d.

139
00:11:20,020 --> 00:11:24,020
Speaker 2: He has written this book. Countrymen is the name of

140
00:11:24,060 --> 00:11:27,500
Speaker 2: the book, The Untold Story of How Denmark's Jews escaped

141
00:11:27,580 --> 00:11:31,060
Speaker 2: the Nazis, of the courage of their fellow Danes, and

142
00:11:31,140 --> 00:11:36,179
Speaker 2: of the extraordinary role of the SS. And again I

143
00:11:36,540 --> 00:11:40,700
Speaker 2: just want to repeat, and mister Lidigard apparently shares my

144
00:11:40,780 --> 00:11:44,900
Speaker 2: conviction that it is at least as important to study

145
00:11:44,940 --> 00:11:49,420
Speaker 2: goodness as it is evil. Since I have a pessimistic

146
00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:53,860
Speaker 2: view of human nature, I regard good as rarer and

147
00:11:53,980 --> 00:11:57,980
Speaker 2: more needing of explanation than evil. We are talking about

148
00:11:58,020 --> 00:12:01,380
Speaker 2: this remarkable thing about the saving of Danish Jews, and

149
00:12:01,420 --> 00:12:05,860
Speaker 2: we had just mentioned that Norway, which had even fewer

150
00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:11,500
Speaker 2: than the eight thousand Jews in Denmark, Norway's one third

151
00:12:11,540 --> 00:12:14,740
Speaker 2: of their Jews had been killed by the Nazis, three

152
00:12:14,820 --> 00:12:18,140
Speaker 2: quarters of Hollands, which had one hundred thousand, and all

153
00:12:18,220 --> 00:12:21,179
Speaker 2: of the virtually all of the eight thousand, two hundred

154
00:12:21,260 --> 00:12:24,900
Speaker 2: Danish Jews had been saved. So I'd like to talk

155
00:12:24,940 --> 00:12:28,900
Speaker 2: to you about your neighbors. What was different? And not

156
00:12:28,940 --> 00:12:31,860
Speaker 2: only that, you mentioned that their northern countries. One might

157
00:12:31,860 --> 00:12:35,580
Speaker 2: add as well Protestant countries, so they even had that

158
00:12:35,660 --> 00:12:40,580
Speaker 2: in common. So what was different among the three countries.

159
00:12:42,420 --> 00:12:49,340
Speaker 3: The main difference was their situation under German occupation. As

160
00:12:49,420 --> 00:12:54,900
Speaker 3: the Germany, the Germans attacked the free countries. They offered

161
00:12:55,140 --> 00:13:01,700
Speaker 3: a very particular settlement to all of them, implying that

162
00:13:01,940 --> 00:13:08,340
Speaker 3: they would control the country, keep it occupied, but leave

163
00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:16,900
Speaker 3: the local authorities govern the country. Denmark accepted this ultimatum,

164
00:13:17,740 --> 00:13:23,140
Speaker 3: whereas Norway and the Netherlands did not. So while Denmark

165
00:13:23,900 --> 00:13:34,220
Speaker 3: preserved her democratic governments, legislation and entire administration, Norway and

166
00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:42,940
Speaker 3: the Netherlands were fighting, they were losing within days or weeks,

167
00:13:44,060 --> 00:13:51,059
Speaker 3: and the Germans then installed direct Nazis rule in both countries,

168
00:13:52,020 --> 00:13:59,020
Speaker 3: and they established Nazi local Nazis or German Nazis in

169
00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:04,980
Speaker 3: the leaderships of the civil administration and the police. Adition

170
00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:09,980
Speaker 3: meant that in Norway, in the Netherlands you had a

171
00:14:10,179 --> 00:14:16,780
Speaker 3: strong government ruled by the Nazis, a strong administration controlled

172
00:14:16,780 --> 00:14:22,180
Speaker 3: by the Nazis and acting on Nazi instructions. In Denmark

173
00:14:22,220 --> 00:14:26,700
Speaker 3: you never had such a thing. You had a German occupation.

174
00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:35,180
Speaker 3: But it was the democratic government negotiating with the occupying forces,

175
00:14:36,220 --> 00:14:42,940
Speaker 3: and as it turned out, that created some leverage for Denmark,

176
00:14:44,020 --> 00:14:49,220
Speaker 3: and that leverage was used by the governments to fend

177
00:14:49,260 --> 00:14:55,020
Speaker 3: off any measures directed against the Jews living in Denmark.

178
00:14:55,380 --> 00:14:59,500
Speaker 2: So one might say that an observer at the time

179
00:14:59,940 --> 00:15:05,380
Speaker 2: would have said the Dutch and the Norwegians were actually

180
00:15:05,500 --> 00:15:09,340
Speaker 2: more noble than the Danes. They fought the Nazis, and

181
00:15:09,420 --> 00:15:10,900
Speaker 2: the Danes accepted the.

182
00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:17,180
Speaker 3: Deal absolutely, And to this very day we are having

183
00:15:17,220 --> 00:15:23,020
Speaker 3: in Denmark a discussion whether you can morally defend to

184
00:15:23,220 --> 00:15:30,300
Speaker 3: compromise that far, whereas in Norway and in the Netherlands

185
00:15:30,340 --> 00:15:34,860
Speaker 3: you have the opposite discussion whether or how you can

186
00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:39,460
Speaker 3: explain that part of the Norwegian police, part of the

187
00:15:39,580 --> 00:15:44,859
Speaker 3: Dutch police helped in executing the deportations.

188
00:15:45,740 --> 00:15:51,420
Speaker 2: Wow. See, it's fascinating because it shows how difficult it

189
00:15:51,460 --> 00:15:55,620
Speaker 2: is sometimes to make moral judgments, because it would seem

190
00:15:55,660 --> 00:15:59,980
Speaker 2: so much more natural to praise the Norwegians and to

191
00:16:00,140 --> 00:16:05,100
Speaker 2: praise the Dutch for fighting the Nazis, But it turns

192
00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:07,140
Speaker 2: out that you could have done a lot more good

193
00:16:07,780 --> 00:16:09,820
Speaker 2: had you accepted the Danish idea.

194
00:16:11,780 --> 00:16:15,300
Speaker 3: Well, I guess you cannot make that comparison quite in

195
00:16:15,340 --> 00:16:20,020
Speaker 3: that way, because nobody knows what would have happened if

196
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:24,460
Speaker 3: the Netherlands had accepted the deal. What we do know

197
00:16:24,660 --> 00:16:29,260
Speaker 3: is that it worked here. It worked for the Jews

198
00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:32,100
Speaker 3: living in Denmark. But it's also I mean, part of

199
00:16:32,140 --> 00:16:37,820
Speaker 3: this very difficult picture that Denmark did nothing to help

200
00:16:39,580 --> 00:16:43,060
Speaker 3: in the general question of the Jewish issue in Germany,

201
00:16:43,940 --> 00:16:48,140
Speaker 3: and we were very strongly fending off our borders not

202
00:16:48,220 --> 00:16:53,220
Speaker 3: to be a safe haven for German Jews. So this

203
00:16:53,460 --> 00:16:58,660
Speaker 3: was a strategy aimed to protect Danish society, including the

204
00:16:58,740 --> 00:17:00,300
Speaker 3: Jews living in Denmark.

205
00:17:02,580 --> 00:17:06,939
Speaker 2: So you don't accept the Danes or better argument.

206
00:17:07,859 --> 00:17:10,700
Speaker 3: No, I do not accept it, but I do accept

207
00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:18,899
Speaker 3: the arguments that realizing that a military defense against Nazi

208
00:17:18,980 --> 00:17:23,340
Speaker 3: Germany was simply not an option for such a small

209
00:17:23,419 --> 00:17:30,060
Speaker 3: country on a flat land bordering Germany, the Danish politicians

210
00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:35,259
Speaker 3: did not give up, but they designed a civil resistance

211
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:42,339
Speaker 3: and they mobilized the Danish people to defend democracy. And

212
00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:46,739
Speaker 3: in a way the argument which they made very explicit

213
00:17:47,820 --> 00:17:54,099
Speaker 3: already in the thirties, the argument was the enemy is

214
00:17:54,139 --> 00:18:00,460
Speaker 3: not the Germans, the enemy is naive and by the way, communism.

215
00:18:00,619 --> 00:18:07,899
Speaker 3: If we in Denmark start or begin to adopt these ideas,

216
00:18:08,619 --> 00:18:12,339
Speaker 3: if we start to think like they do in terms

217
00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:16,939
Speaker 3: of us and them, in terms of the Jews being

218
00:18:16,939 --> 00:18:22,419
Speaker 3: a problem, if we begin walking down that avenue, we

219
00:18:22,500 --> 00:18:25,779
Speaker 3: have lost the battle because we have become Nazs ourselves.

220
00:18:27,580 --> 00:18:30,539
Speaker 3: So whether we can defend our country or not. We

221
00:18:30,619 --> 00:18:36,300
Speaker 3: need to keep this line strong. We cannot separate between

222
00:18:36,619 --> 00:18:42,340
Speaker 3: Danes all Danes of how society everyone supported democracy should

223
00:18:42,379 --> 00:18:44,100
Speaker 3: be defended by democracy.

224
00:18:45,419 --> 00:18:49,379
Speaker 2: How insightful this gives you an idea of the importance

225
00:18:49,419 --> 00:18:53,700
Speaker 2: of the book. The book is called Countrymen, The Untold

226
00:18:53,699 --> 00:18:58,179
Speaker 2: Story of How Denmark Jews Escaped the Nazis. Boultiguard is

227
00:18:58,540 --> 00:19:02,459
Speaker 2: the author. I'm Dennis Prager. This is a history hour

228
00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:16,580
Speaker 2: on my show. Back in a moment. I'm Dennis Prager,

229
00:19:16,739 --> 00:19:20,020
Speaker 2: and welcome to the Dennis Prager Show, or welcome back,

230
00:19:20,060 --> 00:19:25,619
Speaker 2: as I often say, this history hour that I'm devoting

231
00:19:25,939 --> 00:19:28,619
Speaker 2: is devoted to or this power that I'm devoting to

232
00:19:28,739 --> 00:19:33,779
Speaker 2: history is to the book Countrymen. Periodically I have this

233
00:19:33,899 --> 00:19:39,180
Speaker 2: hour to highlight a very important newly published book of history.

234
00:19:39,939 --> 00:19:43,859
Speaker 2: Bold de Garde, who is the editor in chief of

235
00:19:44,179 --> 00:19:49,219
Speaker 2: the leading newspaper in Denmark, Politiken, and who is a

236
00:19:49,340 --> 00:19:53,300
Speaker 2: Danish diplomat, is the author. The book is up at

237
00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:58,059
Speaker 2: Dennis Praeger dot com. It is about the saving of

238
00:19:58,540 --> 00:20:04,740
Speaker 2: Danish Jews by their fellow Danes during World War Two.

239
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:10,939
Speaker 2: And I had asked you this question about are Danes

240
00:20:10,979 --> 00:20:13,100
Speaker 2: better or do they have better values? And I think

241
00:20:13,139 --> 00:20:16,859
Speaker 2: your answer is very compelling because you point out that

242
00:20:16,939 --> 00:20:20,459
Speaker 2: they did not allow they sealed their borders to do

243
00:20:20,659 --> 00:20:23,499
Speaker 2: wish refugees from the Nazis. Is that correct?

244
00:20:24,859 --> 00:20:32,299
Speaker 3: Yes, we did, and there was this strong notion that

245
00:20:32,340 --> 00:20:37,299
Speaker 3: what Denmark could do would be to protect its own society.

246
00:20:38,939 --> 00:20:43,580
Speaker 3: In this concept, the fascinating thing is that protecting society

247
00:20:44,580 --> 00:20:51,060
Speaker 3: meant protecting everyone who they themselves said they belonged to society,

248
00:20:52,379 --> 00:20:57,859
Speaker 3: and as the Jewish population in Denmark were part of society.

249
00:20:57,459 --> 00:21:03,100
Speaker 2: And right, it makes us. That's why your book is

250
00:21:03,139 --> 00:21:07,379
Speaker 2: called Countrymen not Jews, exactly.

251
00:21:07,379 --> 00:21:13,659
Speaker 3: Because for the Danes protecting their countrymen, regardless of whether

252
00:21:13,659 --> 00:21:15,019
Speaker 3: they were Jewish or Nazis.

253
00:21:14,859 --> 00:21:17,939
Speaker 2: Right, it's irrelevant. It was irrelevant, exactly.

254
00:21:18,219 --> 00:21:19,939
Speaker 3: And to me, that's even a better story.

255
00:21:21,540 --> 00:21:24,100
Speaker 2: I'm not judging it as in any way negatively. I'm

256
00:21:24,139 --> 00:21:27,299
Speaker 2: just saying, no, your point is very very clear and

257
00:21:27,340 --> 00:21:31,979
Speaker 2: well taken. It wouldn't matter if the Nazis had said

258
00:21:32,340 --> 00:21:34,540
Speaker 2: all Danes under five feet.

259
00:21:34,260 --> 00:21:42,099
Speaker 3: Tall exactly exactly. And this is also why early in

260
00:21:42,139 --> 00:21:48,179
Speaker 3: the war, as Hitler was attacking Stalin in the summer

261
00:21:48,219 --> 00:21:54,179
Speaker 3: of nineteen forty one, the occupation forces in Denmark ordered

262
00:21:54,179 --> 00:21:59,340
Speaker 3: the Danes to arrest the Danish Communists, the Communists being

263
00:21:59,459 --> 00:22:04,979
Speaker 3: a legal but undemocratic party at the time, and in

264
00:22:05,020 --> 00:22:10,580
Speaker 3: the case of the Danish Communists, Danish police actually did

265
00:22:11,619 --> 00:22:17,379
Speaker 3: arrest their fellow countrymen and they were eventually deported to Germany.

266
00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:22,019
Speaker 3: Now why was that? That was because they were considered

267
00:22:22,699 --> 00:22:28,260
Speaker 3: not part of society, because they had denounced democracy. So

268
00:22:28,540 --> 00:22:33,859
Speaker 3: they I mean ethnically fully Danes, they were regarded as

269
00:22:34,619 --> 00:22:39,899
Speaker 3: not under the protective umbrella of society. So this was

270
00:22:39,979 --> 00:22:45,699
Speaker 3: not a soft strategy. It was a pretty tough stance.

271
00:22:46,379 --> 00:22:50,939
Speaker 3: If you stand up and defend democracy, democracy will stand

272
00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:51,340
Speaker 3: up and.

273
00:22:54,179 --> 00:22:57,580
Speaker 2: Do you discussing your book the role if any of

274
00:22:57,659 --> 00:23:01,459
Speaker 2: the churches in Denmark. Yes.

275
00:23:03,379 --> 00:23:09,619
Speaker 3: When the action against the Jews actually took place, which

276
00:23:09,899 --> 00:23:16,219
Speaker 3: was on the first October ninety forty three, Denmark was

277
00:23:16,260 --> 00:23:23,419
Speaker 3: in a very precarious situation. The government had resigned one

278
00:23:23,459 --> 00:23:29,939
Speaker 3: month previously. There was no free press, the resistance had

279
00:23:29,979 --> 00:23:35,259
Speaker 3: not yet organized at a national level, so you really

280
00:23:35,340 --> 00:23:39,739
Speaker 3: had a country without a head. You had no government,

281
00:23:39,820 --> 00:23:42,459
Speaker 3: You had no one who could speak on behalf of

282
00:23:42,500 --> 00:23:46,859
Speaker 3: the government or the people. And yet the people had

283
00:23:46,899 --> 00:23:56,060
Speaker 3: to face this crisis and to act visiting their fellow countrymen.

284
00:23:57,699 --> 00:24:05,099
Speaker 3: The Danish Church, which is Protestant Lutheran, is organized in

285
00:24:05,139 --> 00:24:09,820
Speaker 3: a very unpolitical way, and there's no spokesman and no

286
00:24:09,899 --> 00:24:13,379
Speaker 3: authority in the church. It's just the ministers at a

287
00:24:13,379 --> 00:24:17,899
Speaker 3: local level. But that Sunday, following the arrests of the

288
00:24:17,979 --> 00:24:23,659
Speaker 3: Jews or the attempted arrests, there was a unique example

289
00:24:24,060 --> 00:24:28,460
Speaker 3: of leaders those in all lucent churches.

290
00:24:29,780 --> 00:24:33,220
Speaker 2: Stating, all right, I want to hear that. I want

291
00:24:33,260 --> 00:24:35,180
Speaker 2: to hear that, obviously, and so to my listeners back

292
00:24:35,179 --> 00:24:46,580
Speaker 2: in a moment, Dennis Prager here, if you're just tuning in,

293
00:24:47,859 --> 00:24:53,060
Speaker 2: well you've missed quite something, and but you can catch

294
00:24:53,139 --> 00:24:58,419
Speaker 2: up somewhat. This is an hour devoted to history. History hours.

295
00:24:58,459 --> 00:25:02,060
Speaker 2: I call it periodically broadcast to bring to you your

296
00:25:02,100 --> 00:25:06,419
Speaker 2: attention the most important works of history being published at

297
00:25:06,419 --> 00:25:11,139
Speaker 2: this time. Countrymen is one of them. It is by

298
00:25:11,179 --> 00:25:13,699
Speaker 2: a Dane about the Danish saving of the Jews in

299
00:25:13,699 --> 00:25:16,939
Speaker 2: the Holocaust. It has not been told in this depth before.

300
00:25:17,300 --> 00:25:22,259
Speaker 2: Boldatigarde is perfectly placed to write it. He is the

301
00:25:22,379 --> 00:25:26,619
Speaker 2: editor in chief of the leading newspaper in Denmark, Politiken,

302
00:25:27,340 --> 00:25:30,939
Speaker 2: and a major diplomat in its foreign in the country,

303
00:25:31,179 --> 00:25:35,659
Speaker 2: his country's foreign service. Before the break, I had asked

304
00:25:35,659 --> 00:25:40,700
Speaker 2: mister Littigard the question of the role of Danish churches,

305
00:25:40,780 --> 00:25:44,619
Speaker 2: if any, in this matter, and you were telling us

306
00:25:44,899 --> 00:25:48,659
Speaker 2: that with the collapse of the government there was a

307
00:25:48,699 --> 00:25:54,820
Speaker 2: period of no leadership. And at that time, and now

308
00:25:54,859 --> 00:25:56,060
Speaker 2: I'll let you continue the.

309
00:25:56,020 --> 00:26:01,939
Speaker 3: Story, at that time was exactly the time when the

310
00:26:02,020 --> 00:26:06,499
Speaker 3: Germans decided to strike against the Danish Jews. And it

311
00:26:06,619 --> 00:26:10,219
Speaker 3: did so on a Friday evening, the first of October

312
00:26:10,540 --> 00:26:15,459
Speaker 3: of what year of nineteen forty three, which was very late.

313
00:26:15,899 --> 00:26:18,540
Speaker 3: It was three and a half years into the occupation,

314
00:26:18,659 --> 00:26:21,300
Speaker 3: and of course at a time when Jews had been

315
00:26:21,379 --> 00:26:25,939
Speaker 3: killed in great numbers all over Europe. Until this moment,

316
00:26:26,619 --> 00:26:31,300
Speaker 3: the Jews in Denmark lived completely normal life, no discrimination,

317
00:26:31,899 --> 00:26:36,580
Speaker 3: no Yellow Star, no special measures. But that night the

318
00:26:36,659 --> 00:26:40,340
Speaker 3: Nazists came to take them. And as they had been

319
00:26:40,419 --> 00:26:45,739
Speaker 3: want actually by the Nazis themselves, as they had been wanted,

320
00:26:46,139 --> 00:26:49,580
Speaker 3: they were not at home. They were fleeing into their neighbors,

321
00:26:50,060 --> 00:26:57,139
Speaker 3: their workmates, the classmates of their schools, and virtually all

322
00:26:57,219 --> 00:27:02,619
Speaker 3: eight thousand simply vanished into society. And on that Sunday,

323
00:27:02,699 --> 00:27:07,699
Speaker 3: following the Friday of the action, in the churches of

324
00:27:07,739 --> 00:27:13,859
Speaker 3: Denmark throughout the country, the ministers were reaching reading a

325
00:27:13,939 --> 00:27:20,100
Speaker 3: small text coordinated between them, saying that this was one

326
00:27:20,139 --> 00:27:25,100
Speaker 3: of the few instances where citizens had to follow the

327
00:27:25,179 --> 00:27:30,500
Speaker 3: word of God before the word of law, and everyone

328
00:27:30,580 --> 00:27:34,220
Speaker 3: had to make out his own mind and do what

329
00:27:34,260 --> 00:27:38,619
Speaker 3: his conscience told him to do. And that was understood

330
00:27:38,979 --> 00:27:43,740
Speaker 3: by the Danish population to mean that the Church supported

331
00:27:44,659 --> 00:27:49,940
Speaker 3: their help to their Jewish countrymen, and that was indeed

332
00:27:50,020 --> 00:27:53,899
Speaker 3: exactly the way it was to be understood. So the

333
00:27:54,020 --> 00:27:59,739
Speaker 3: church in that way did not initiate the action to help,

334
00:28:00,659 --> 00:28:06,660
Speaker 3: but it certainly confirmed to the church goers that this

335
00:28:07,820 --> 00:28:09,980
Speaker 3: was with the support of the Danish Church.

336
00:28:11,219 --> 00:28:14,100
Speaker 2: Now was Danish society religious at that time?

337
00:28:15,899 --> 00:28:20,739
Speaker 3: It was, and many people would go to church. But

338
00:28:20,820 --> 00:28:25,060
Speaker 3: the church did not play a political role in Danish society.

339
00:28:25,739 --> 00:28:27,540
Speaker 3: It hadn't fall for a long time.

340
00:28:29,139 --> 00:28:31,619
Speaker 2: Right, but it did now, I mean, if one wants

341
00:28:31,619 --> 00:28:35,300
Speaker 2: to it played a moral role, if not political. So

342
00:28:35,859 --> 00:28:39,100
Speaker 2: did the Nazis at this time also order the yellow

343
00:28:39,140 --> 00:28:41,779
Speaker 2: star to be worn by Jews. When did that happen?

344
00:28:42,780 --> 00:28:47,420
Speaker 3: Well, it actually did not happen because the action came

345
00:28:49,340 --> 00:28:52,980
Speaker 3: as a surprise, except that they want or they led.

346
00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:58,140
Speaker 3: The rumor slid out two days in advance, and the

347
00:28:58,180 --> 00:29:03,459
Speaker 3: action was executed in just one night, that night of

348
00:29:03,459 --> 00:29:09,380
Speaker 3: October first, ninety forty three. And as all the Jews

349
00:29:10,580 --> 00:29:18,300
Speaker 3: had fled into their neighbors, into friends, and the Natas

350
00:29:18,500 --> 00:29:23,819
Speaker 3: only succeeded in arresting some two hundred out of the

351
00:29:23,860 --> 00:29:29,220
Speaker 3: eight thousands, they could still report back to Berlin that

352
00:29:29,260 --> 00:29:34,259
Speaker 3: all the Jews had gone. So actually, the leading Nazi

353
00:29:34,380 --> 00:29:39,100
Speaker 3: in Denmark, mister Vanna Best, a very senior SS officer,

354
00:29:40,140 --> 00:29:44,019
Speaker 3: concluded in the morning that the action had been a

355
00:29:44,020 --> 00:29:49,300
Speaker 3: great success and Denmark was now in jan It was judenfied.

356
00:29:53,620 --> 00:29:56,500
Speaker 2: I don't understand how could he claim that because there

357
00:29:56,540 --> 00:29:58,779
Speaker 2: were none to arrest.

358
00:29:59,219 --> 00:29:59,820
Speaker 3: They were gone.

359
00:30:01,140 --> 00:30:06,140
Speaker 2: So escaped is the same as as success.

360
00:30:06,780 --> 00:30:10,140
Speaker 3: Apparently, And the thing is, and this is one of

361
00:30:10,180 --> 00:30:16,540
Speaker 3: the points of my book, that the Germans never acted

362
00:30:17,420 --> 00:30:21,380
Speaker 3: to try to find out what happened to them, right.

363
00:30:21,380 --> 00:30:24,540
Speaker 2: So this leads to the obvious question. First of all,

364
00:30:24,580 --> 00:30:28,260
Speaker 2: you mentioned in passing that the SS, the most feared

365
00:30:28,340 --> 00:30:32,219
Speaker 2: and sadistic part of the Nazi regime, tipped off the

366
00:30:32,340 --> 00:30:36,019
Speaker 2: Danish government that they would be a roundup of the

367
00:30:36,140 --> 00:30:41,219
Speaker 2: Jews on that Friday night. So how does one explain that.

368
00:30:43,459 --> 00:30:50,340
Speaker 3: When Hitler sent the anabst his first man to be

369
00:30:50,620 --> 00:30:55,780
Speaker 3: his representative in Denmark. In occupying Denmark, he had two

370
00:30:55,979 --> 00:31:03,380
Speaker 3: orders for Anabists. One was to maintain Denmark as this

371
00:31:04,380 --> 00:31:10,100
Speaker 3: model protectorates, as Hitler termed did the showcase example of

372
00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:11,660
Speaker 3: how well a country would be.

373
00:31:11,620 --> 00:31:14,860
Speaker 2: Treated if it cooperated right.

374
00:31:15,979 --> 00:31:20,580
Speaker 3: And the second order was to resolve the Jewish question,

375
00:31:21,140 --> 00:31:25,380
Speaker 3: as sid to put it now, that a business not stupid,

376
00:31:26,020 --> 00:31:31,820
Speaker 3: as he realized the contradiction between those through aimes. And

377
00:31:33,020 --> 00:31:36,940
Speaker 3: this is the explanation why she moved so carefully.

378
00:31:37,979 --> 00:31:40,460
Speaker 2: All right, hold on, we'll have to hear that when

379
00:31:40,540 --> 00:31:44,580
Speaker 2: we come back. This is just riveting. Bulletiguard is the

380
00:31:44,660 --> 00:31:49,019
Speaker 2: Danish author of one of the most prominent Danes of

381
00:31:49,060 --> 00:31:52,700
Speaker 2: our time, and his book is Countrymen. Up at Dennis

382
00:31:52,700 --> 00:32:07,940
Speaker 2: Prager dot Com. I'm very sad to say we only

383
00:32:07,979 --> 00:32:11,180
Speaker 2: have three minutes to go here. I am speaking on

384
00:32:11,219 --> 00:32:17,860
Speaker 2: this History Hour with bulleti Guard, the leading Danish journalist

385
00:32:18,140 --> 00:32:22,740
Speaker 2: and diplomat. His book Countrymen, the untold story of how

386
00:32:22,979 --> 00:32:28,459
Speaker 2: Denmark's Jews escaped the Nazis and the amazing role that

387
00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:33,220
Speaker 2: either Germans who governed at the time, who governed Denmark

388
00:32:33,260 --> 00:32:38,539
Speaker 2: at the time, played and you were mentioning that the

389
00:32:38,660 --> 00:32:41,700
Speaker 2: leading is it the leading German or the leading ssess

390
00:32:41,780 --> 00:32:42,740
Speaker 2: Man werner.

391
00:32:42,420 --> 00:32:45,780
Speaker 3: Best The leading German wasn't.

392
00:32:48,820 --> 00:32:51,980
Speaker 2: And he understood that you can either round up Jews

393
00:32:53,260 --> 00:32:58,820
Speaker 2: or have a model protectorate, but you can't do both exactly.

394
00:32:59,739 --> 00:33:04,620
Speaker 3: And he understood that because he realized in arriving in

395
00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:10,580
Speaker 3: Denmark that there was absolutely no support in Danish society

396
00:33:11,219 --> 00:33:15,180
Speaker 3: for anysure any level, any kind to be taken against

397
00:33:15,180 --> 00:33:15,500
Speaker 3: the Jews.

398
00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:19,180
Speaker 2: So you think that he knew that the Jews were

399
00:33:19,219 --> 00:33:22,420
Speaker 2: warned in advanced that they would be arrested on October first,

400
00:33:22,459 --> 00:33:23,020
Speaker 2: forty three.

401
00:33:24,900 --> 00:33:30,219
Speaker 3: More than that, I documents that he himself personally was

402
00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:35,860
Speaker 3: behind the morning amazing, not because he was a bleeding

403
00:33:35,940 --> 00:33:39,499
Speaker 3: heart I had gone soolved. He was definitely not, but

404
00:33:39,620 --> 00:33:42,700
Speaker 3: because it served his interests of.

405
00:33:42,660 --> 00:33:48,819
Speaker 2: A peaceful, peaceful Denmark. Yes, now forgive me, because we

406
00:33:48,860 --> 00:33:51,260
Speaker 2: have so little time. Did the king did King Christian

407
00:33:51,340 --> 00:33:53,820
Speaker 2: actually put on a yellow star? Or is that a myth?

408
00:33:54,860 --> 00:33:57,340
Speaker 3: That is a myth. That's what I thought, did actually

409
00:33:57,380 --> 00:34:01,219
Speaker 3: say if they tried to force the Danish Jews. To

410
00:34:01,219 --> 00:34:04,900
Speaker 3: do so, we all have to wear the yellow guye.

411
00:34:05,060 --> 00:34:08,020
Speaker 2: He actually announced that, not.

412
00:34:08,180 --> 00:34:13,460
Speaker 3: In public but in private. But the point of this

413
00:34:13,620 --> 00:34:21,020
Speaker 3: German dilemma is the Danish politics forced the Natzas into

414
00:34:21,060 --> 00:34:25,540
Speaker 3: making a choice. You have to take the Jews or

415
00:34:25,660 --> 00:34:29,900
Speaker 3: to keep Denmark as protectorates right and facing that choice

416
00:34:30,219 --> 00:34:33,740
Speaker 3: they actually hesitated going off as Jews.

417
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:39,140
Speaker 2: I can honestly say that I regret that this hour

418
00:34:39,259 --> 00:34:42,380
Speaker 2: is over. Well, folks, you can always read the book,

419
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:46,299
Speaker 2: which is pretty much the point here. Countryman is up

420
00:34:46,299 --> 00:34:49,819
Speaker 2: at Dennispraguer dot com. Mister Lidegard. It has been a

421
00:34:49,819 --> 00:34:52,220
Speaker 2: real joy for me, and thank you for writing the book.

422
00:34:53,219 --> 00:34:54,140
Speaker 3: Thank you for calling me.

423
00:34:54,580 --> 00:35:00,300
Speaker 2: You're very welcome from La to Denmark. This is Dennis Prager.

424
00:35:00,819 --> 00:35:01,780
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening.

425
00:35:14,020 --> 00:35:18,380
Speaker 1: This has been timeless wisdom with Dennis Prager. Visit Dennisprager

426
00:35:18,420 --> 00:35:21,940
Speaker 1: dot com for thousands of hours of his lectures, courses

427
00:35:21,980 --> 00:35:26,620
Speaker 1: in classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis Prager's Rational Bibles.

428
00:35:30,339 --> 00:35:30,379
Speaker 2: M