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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Build Different is a production of the American Association of

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Speaker 2: Christian Counselors. To support this podcast and learn how you

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Speaker 2: can help us to promote all our biblical content, spread

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Speaker 2: the Gospel, and provide mental health resources and training to

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Speaker 2: people everywhere, just go to aaccfoundation dot org. Again, that's

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Speaker 2: Aaccfoundation dot org. Welcome to Built Different. I'm Zach Clinton,

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Speaker 2: your host, and each week I come to you exclusively

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Speaker 2: on the Life Audio podcast Network. I'm proud to partner

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Speaker 2: with Life Audio and bring you entertaining, life changing, family

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Speaker 2: friendly podcasts for a new generation.

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Speaker 1: I Built Different.

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Speaker 2: Our mission is to provide encouragement, hope, and challenge to

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Speaker 2: help push you past your limits and reach goals you

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Speaker 2: never thought possible. Colossians two, verse six says, So then,

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Speaker 2: just as you received Christ Jesus's Lord, continue to live

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Speaker 2: your lives in Him, rooted and built up in him.

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Speaker 1: Amen. Now let's roll.

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Speaker 2: Hello everybody, Welcome back into the Built Different Podcast. The

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Speaker 2: place that we really seek to have conversations at the

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Speaker 2: intersection of faith, mental health, and we'll say motivational psychology.

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Speaker 2: We really want to help people reach their fullest potential.

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Speaker 2: I always say that sometimes my heart beats to make

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Speaker 2: your heartbeat again, and I think today's conversation might have

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Speaker 2: the opportunity of doing that exact thing. Joining me today

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Speaker 2: hailing from Franklin, Tennessee. He flew all the way here

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Speaker 2: this morning he landed. We've had some great conversations. He

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Speaker 2: has encouraged my heart already. He's a man of deep wisdom.

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Speaker 2: He's a thought leader for today's generations. And really he

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Speaker 2: is a psychotherapist that focuses on healing trauma, deepening relationships,

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Speaker 2: and reconciling. But I'll say this restoring the family bond.

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Speaker 2: He's somebody that deeply cares for people. He deeply cares

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Speaker 2: for the family. He's actually the founder, the president, the

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Speaker 2: leader of estrangement dot com. Many of you might be

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Speaker 2: familiar with that. If you're not, I promise you will

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Speaker 2: not disappointed. It will help benefit you and those that

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Speaker 2: you love. So joining me today is Matthias Sparker. Matthias,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming all the way here.

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Speaker 1: My friend. I honored to be here. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to the conversation. Like I mentioned, I've

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Speaker 2: followed you for quite some time. I've been encouraged I've

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Speaker 2: been moved, I've been educated by a lot of the

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Speaker 2: content that God has placed on your life, specifically around

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Speaker 2: the topic of the family. I know your wife, Paige.

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Speaker 2: You guys have three littles, four, three, and one. Just

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Speaker 2: to begin, what's life like in the busyness and the

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Speaker 2: chaos of just raising the family?

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Speaker 1: Right now, just joyous sparks of energy and light. And

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Speaker 1: I hardly sleep.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say sleep, but it's all good.

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Speaker 1: I just I'm trying to cherish these young years and remember,

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Speaker 1: even in the exhaustion, just I'm gonna look back on

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Speaker 1: these like pictures and just be like, oh, if I

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Speaker 1: could just be there for ten seconds. So it's like

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Speaker 1: that dual awareness. I'm like, I'm so tired, it's so hard,

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Speaker 1: and oh, I just want to savor every drop. So

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Speaker 1: that's both at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought so, I say this, the family is

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Speaker 2: integral just for culture and society, but it's biblical in nature,

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Speaker 2: this idea that it is so sacred to God. And

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Speaker 2: I just want to ask you, you know, God has

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Speaker 2: called you to specifically work with individuals, of course, but

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Speaker 2: also with the family unit. Speak to the importance of

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Speaker 2: the family and why we need it now maybe more

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Speaker 2: than ever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I just feel like we make sense of ourselves

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Speaker 1: through our closest relationships. We're not really supposed to navigate

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Speaker 1: life just on our own, you know. I don't really

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Speaker 1: buy into this thing that we can just kind of

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Speaker 1: meet all of our own emotional needs and be completely

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Speaker 1: self sufficient, almost like machine like entities just kind of

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Speaker 1: like trailing through life. Like I think that we need

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Speaker 1: others and so the relationships that we entrust those needs

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Speaker 1: too and stewart those needs with. Like I need to

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Speaker 1: be seen, I need to feel like I don't know,

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Speaker 1: when I'm going through a hard time, I can talk

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Speaker 1: to someone about it and be vulnerable. Like I can

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Speaker 1: lean on other people when I'm struggling instead of just

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Speaker 1: having to I don't know, mustard all myself and just

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Speaker 1: bear it all alone to feel safe, like when when

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Speaker 1: my body fails, when my resources fail, I have other

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Speaker 1: people I can call on and then just to feel soothed,

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Speaker 1: Like when I'm stressed, when I'm just holding the burden

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Speaker 1: of whatever I'm supposed to be doing in the world,

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Speaker 1: that I can offload some of it to other people

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Speaker 1: or at least take a break and just like have

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Speaker 1: other people there to help carry me. So like family is,

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Speaker 1: like I think the most integral. I mean, especially early

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Speaker 1: in life and childhood is the most important relationships in

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Speaker 1: our life. And then I think as we grow in

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Speaker 1: and mature and become adults, we negotiate those relationships and

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Speaker 1: how much of a role they're going to continue to

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Speaker 1: play at meeting those needs. And I think that's where

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Speaker 1: a lot of my work comes in because I'm a

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Speaker 1: therapist and I work with families where there's been huge divides,

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Speaker 1: whether that's because of trauma or abuse, or even just

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Speaker 1: like misunderstandings, shifts some values and faith and people changing

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Speaker 1: what they believe about things. It's like, how do we

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Speaker 1: continue to grow together even as I become more and

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Speaker 1: more different than the kid that I was, and even

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Speaker 1: as my parents, like age and change into their years.

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Speaker 1: It's I don't know. I think about that stuff all

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 2: Man, you just listed not just the importance of family,

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Speaker 2: but some of the things that are working against the

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Speaker 2: family unit, the family dynamic. I think that the thief

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Speaker 2: comes but to steal, kill, and destroy, and one of

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Speaker 2: the things that he would love to do more than

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Speaker 2: anything is to divide the family altogether. There's so many

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Speaker 2: different things that are working against it in culture society today.

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Speaker 2: I even think of like the pace and the pressure

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Speaker 2: of everyday life. I think a phones were so preoccupied.

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Speaker 2: I was at a soccer game just the other day

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Speaker 2: with Aias watching my little niece Olivia, who's now seven,

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Speaker 2: and I mean sometimes I jokingly will say that it

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Speaker 2: is hard to keep them in a straight line on

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Speaker 2: the soccer field, but to watch them run around in

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Speaker 2: an opposing team. There was a little girl that was

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Speaker 2: just trying to get her dad's attention. Dad was on

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Speaker 2: the sideline, buried in his phone for whatever reason, and

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Speaker 2: she eventually just loses her mind. She just goes off

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Speaker 2: and she just yells, would you just look at me?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: A little girl just to have the wherewithal that like man,

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Speaker 2: she wasn't getting the attention that she desired to have.

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Speaker 2: And I'm just I want to ask you, as somebody

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Speaker 2: who works with a lot of families, what do you

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Speaker 2: see in as maybe the most common trends or challenges

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Speaker 2: that is facing the family unit today.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're right, like where you know, there has just

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Speaker 1: been like a shift, Like I think about the setting

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Speaker 1: that family used to be situated in. So think like

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Speaker 1: way way back, not even just like for your parents

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Speaker 1: or your grandparents, but think like we used to like

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Speaker 1: mostly kind of live in like tribes or kind of

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Speaker 1: smaller towns and kind of smaller villages, and it was

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Speaker 1: like your needs and you feeling seen and attended to,

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Speaker 1: the attention that you needed was dispersed amongst a lot

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Speaker 1: of people. It was like your not just your aunts

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Speaker 1: and uncles and grandmas and grandpa's, but also like the

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Speaker 1: whole community. And so now we've kind of globalized and

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Speaker 1: we've industrialized, and we live in these you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of cultures where we really pick the people who are

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Speaker 1: close to us. It's not just the people you grew

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Speaker 1: up with, but it's like you kind of curate who

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Speaker 1: your close friends are and who you're going to marry.

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Speaker 1: And then also if you live close to your parents,

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Speaker 1: if you live far away, and so many of the

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Speaker 1: cultural I don't know, the nests that that everything used

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Speaker 1: to be set in is kind of brand new, and

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Speaker 1: so I think that a lot of people are trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out what to do, and like when you

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Speaker 1: ask like the biggest things that like, Okay, what's challenging

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Speaker 1: families today. I often find that it's like a bunch

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Speaker 1: of little things stacked up. Like there's lots of news

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Speaker 1: headlines talking about like estrangement being a trend and you know,

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Speaker 1: going zero contact being a trend. And for those who

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Speaker 1: don't know what estrangement is, that's like when you're not

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Speaker 1: talking to your mom or your dad, or if you're

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Speaker 1: a parent, when your kid won't talk to you, either

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Speaker 1: they've cut off contact entirely, or you really notice a big,

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Speaker 1: like kind of emotional withdrawal, and it just feels like

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Speaker 1: you're kind of getting those really subtle, kind of low energy,

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Speaker 1: you know, efforts from them, like you get a text

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Speaker 1: but just with a couple words in it, or like

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Speaker 1: it takes like a long time to get them on

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Speaker 1: the phone, and when they're on the phone, it feels

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Speaker 1: like really strained and like they're just kind of can't

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Speaker 1: wait to get off the phone. It's like, so you

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Speaker 1: can feel it even though you're physically talking, there's like

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Speaker 1: this big elephant in the room or this big, you know,

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Speaker 1: chasm between you, and it's like we can call that

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Speaker 1: a strangement too. So that's that's what I specialize in.

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Speaker 1: I specialize in those family conflicts, and so often the

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Speaker 1: families that I work with, like within my program, it's

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Speaker 1: like I don't really know what they're wrong. It's just like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we were a normal family. Maybe they went

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Speaker 1: off to school, maybe they got married, maybe there was

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Speaker 1: a hard divorce in the family. You know, there's lots

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Speaker 1: of different situations. But it's like they just kind of

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Speaker 1: faded away, and now the either won't talk to me,

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Speaker 1: or when we do talk, it just feels like I

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Speaker 1: only get this like five percent version of them, and

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what happened. And it's hard because

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Speaker 1: then you ask the kid what happened, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of kids like I don't know, And the big question

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Speaker 1: mark is like I don't know why, but I do

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Speaker 1: feel weird around you, Like I feel like I don't know.

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Speaker 1: We use different words like triggered or activated or whatever,

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Speaker 1: but it's just this general feeling of feeling of discomfort.

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Speaker 1: Like there's topics I try to avoid. There's like, all

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Speaker 1: Dad's going off on this thing again, or all I

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Speaker 1: don't really want to worry mong again. If I bring

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Speaker 1: up then I'm dating someone new. Mom's gonna ask a

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Speaker 1: million questions and then I'm gonna have to defend like

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Speaker 1: my choices because it's not someone she's going to approve of.

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Speaker 1: And da da da da da, it's like and it

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Speaker 1: might be all from a place of love and concern

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Speaker 1: and interest for mom, but for kid, it just feels

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Speaker 1: like intrusive or can trolling or pressuring, and it's just

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Speaker 1: some of it's misunderstanding. Some of it's just wounds that

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Speaker 1: have kind of just been on repeat maybe all through

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Speaker 1: childhood that are really hard to articulate. It's lots of

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Speaker 1: small things, and I think then, you know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of the cultural conversation, you know, can either tend to

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Speaker 1: like blame parents and call them kind of like narcissistic

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Speaker 1: or abusive or blame kids, is you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: being like these entitled selfish ya da da da da

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Speaker 1: that just kind of push against everything. And I think

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Speaker 1: what it's missing is like there is a cultural moment

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Speaker 1: that we're in right now where it seems that there's

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Speaker 1: divides growing between parents and kids and for reasons that

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Speaker 1: are really hard to pin down because it's more like

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Speaker 1: death by a thousand paper cuts than this big injury.

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Speaker 1: It would be easy to identify if it was like well,

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Speaker 1: like a baseball bat to the knee, can we can

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Speaker 1: identify that? But a thousand paper cuts is a lot

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Speaker 1: hard to put your finger on. And then if you have,

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Speaker 1: well why aren't you talking to mom? And you're just like, well,

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Speaker 1: it's because of the looks she gives me when I

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Speaker 1: talk about my job. Everyone will be like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: really you're gonna cut off your mom for a for

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Speaker 1: a grumpy look. And you're like, hold on, there's so

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Speaker 1: much more. What about ten thousand one of them? Your

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Speaker 1: whole life is that different? You know? So it's like,

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Speaker 1: that's what makes the conversation really nuanced, is getting out

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Speaker 1: of the blame game and looking just at the experience

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Speaker 1: and the reality for both people that so often parents

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Speaker 1: have just good intentions of wanting to love their kids

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Speaker 1: and and not but and there's hurt and woundedness and

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Speaker 1: distance that both of them don't really know how to

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Speaker 1: talk about. So my job often is helping speak each

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Speaker 1: other's language and come towards each other to see where

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Speaker 1: the other person is feeling coming from.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna stop this right there and jump into say

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Speaker 2: you're listening to built different, I'm Zach Clinton. We need

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Speaker 2: to break for a brief message from our sponsors. I'll

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Speaker 2: be back with our guests to keep the conversation flowing.

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Speaker 2: Right after this, you're listening to Life Audio. What I

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Speaker 2: appreciate about Emathias is that you really live in the

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Speaker 2: middle of the fairway. You don't really take a side

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Speaker 2: of you know, I'm siding with the parent or I'm

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Speaker 2: siding with the child in this situation. You really just

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Speaker 2: want people to understand that, like you mentioned at lunch,

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Speaker 2: that parents and children, we can both sin, we can

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Speaker 2: both take responsibility for the areas that maybe we're weakened

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Speaker 2: then we need to grow in. But man, we need

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Speaker 2: to be moving in the same direction at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day. And I'd love to ask you a

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Speaker 2: little bit, because you know, the buzzword around estrangement right now,

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Speaker 2: is that idea of zero or no contact. And I

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Speaker 2: feel like there's a lot of stats that will show

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Speaker 2: and you even mentioning some of the stats. I'd love

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Speaker 2: for you to share them. When does estrangement happen most frequently?

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Speaker 2: And what are maybe the key ingredients that typically lead

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Speaker 2: to this idea of zero contact Because it's almost a

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Speaker 2: buzz where where there's so many people saying like, oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: no contact, no contact, no content, and it's like, man,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if that's a good thing. At the

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Speaker 2: end of the day, that's not the healthiest thing. And

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Speaker 2: then we'll eventually get to the conversation how do we

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Speaker 2: get there? But share some of the stats.

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Speaker 1: If you would, sure, well, I mean, the stats are

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Speaker 1: interesting because it depends how you ask. Like so, let's

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Speaker 1: say you interviewed a bunch of parents and then you

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Speaker 1: ask them, Okay, why did you kick cut you off?

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Speaker 1: Or why isn't your kid talking? The most common answers

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Speaker 1: that you're going to get are something along the lines

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Speaker 1: of like, well, you know, these value differences. It's very common.

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Speaker 1: Maybe the kid has a different set of political beliefs

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Speaker 1: or religious beliefs. They kind of grow up and they

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Speaker 1: deviate from like the family norms and what we all

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Speaker 1: believe about this or that. So they talk about that.

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Speaker 1: Most of them will say divorce, So about I don't know,

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Speaker 1: seventy percent is like more or less depending on the

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Speaker 1: study that you look at, seventy percent of folks who

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Speaker 1: face estrangement there was a divorce involved. And that's not

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Speaker 1: the same thing as saying the divorce caused it, but

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Speaker 1: just to say that that's an ingredient in the soup

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Speaker 1: for so many people you know, there's a divorce. Let's

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Speaker 1: say an example is like nine, ten years old, and

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Speaker 1: then you go to live with mom. You spend more

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Speaker 1: time with mom, maybe like there's conflict with dad. Maybe

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Speaker 1: mom describes to you like you know what's wrong with dad?

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Speaker 1: And then you kind of grow up and you kind

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Speaker 1: of have a hard time finding your footing with Dad

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Speaker 1: because it kind of have in your head like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, mom would say this and this about them,

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Speaker 1: Do I really want a relationship with that guy? And

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Speaker 1: then Dad feels like really like well hold on, and

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Speaker 1: I feel like I didn't really get a chance to

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Speaker 1: speak for myself. And that could be backwards too. Same

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Speaker 1: thing with mom being villainized, and we call that parental alienation.

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Speaker 1: So that's all different when it's a kid, but there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of different reasons it comes up. Parents will

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Speaker 1: generally talk about their daughter's mental health. If it's a daughter,

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Speaker 1: they talk about mental health. If it's a son, very

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Speaker 1: common they'll talk about either the son's girlfriend or daughter

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Speaker 1: in law, and it's very common to blame yeah, they

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Speaker 1: blame the romantic partner. So I joke sometimes that, like

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Speaker 1: the data seems to point it's like, well, if the

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Speaker 1: daughters are strange just because she's crazy, if the sons

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Speaker 1: is strange just because his wife is crazy, sounds like

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Speaker 1: the one's always like always gets the short end of

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Speaker 1: the stick. So we can't we can't go for that.

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Speaker 1: But like, yeah, so okay, bummer, Well okay, so that's

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Speaker 1: what the parents say. It's like, maybe it's that, and

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Speaker 1: then and then there's also there's other reasons that maybe

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Speaker 1: they'll talk about like an alcohol or a substance, or

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Speaker 1: maybe there's a trauma in the family if that's present generally,

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Speaker 1: the maybe political differences whatever, that's that's what they point

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Speaker 1: to kids though they have a very different set of explanations.

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Speaker 1: They don't talk about political differences. They don't talk about

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Speaker 1: a divorce, they don't talk about well because I started

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Speaker 1: dating this person, and like they quite frequently will talk

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Speaker 1: about emotional neglect and abuse. Those are big words, and

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Speaker 1: parents are like, what are you talking about? We had

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Speaker 1: a normal family. What do you mean I abused you?

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Speaker 1: And I think that there's a cultural reason for why

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Speaker 1: there's this gap here, because I think that for folks,

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Speaker 1: let's say that were born before nineteen eighty abuse trauma

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Speaker 1: meant a near death experience meant physical harm, like a

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Speaker 1: neglect meant no food on the table, no medical you know,

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Speaker 1: Like it was very concrete. It was really centered around

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Speaker 1: the severity of something right, but for a kid. I mean,

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Speaker 1: And this has an explanation for how the DSM was formed,

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Speaker 1: for how like clinicians create diagnoses, Like trauma used to

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Speaker 1: be kind of defined in those terms, but then in

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Speaker 1: the DSM three the DSM four, trauma started to become

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Speaker 1: more and more associated with the paper cuts thing, like

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Speaker 1: I was talking about, that someone can have emotional trauma

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Speaker 1: or relational trauma, meaning that's lots of little things over

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Speaker 1: time that build up and create a really big impact.

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Speaker 1: I mean. And there were studies done for like like

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Speaker 1: boys and or in boys homes, like foster kids and

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Speaker 1: the like. Thousands They've studied these really large samples and

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Speaker 1: they ask them, Okay, the have physical abuse, do you

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Speaker 1: have sexual abuse? Do to have like emotional relational abuse?

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Speaker 1: And they found that regardless of kind of like the

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Speaker 1: trauma background, there's a certain point where all the kind

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Speaker 1: of the symptoms really start to look very similar. And

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Speaker 1: you know there's we can put some of those citations

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Speaker 1: in the show notes. I can I can put this

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Speaker 1: send those to you. But it's really illuminating because we

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Speaker 1: saw that trauma isn't necessarily just about severity. It can

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Speaker 1: also be about the duration and the frequency. And we

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Speaker 1: actually know that this isn't some serious like in marriage,

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Speaker 1: for example, we know this very well. Lots of people

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Speaker 1: get divorced without their having to be physical violence, right right,

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Speaker 1: Like lots of people get divorced without they're having to

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Speaker 1: be some sort of like a huge domineering, you know,

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Speaker 1: a big malicious thing. There's lots of little things. And

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Speaker 1: people describe it what we fell out of love, we're

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Speaker 1: just incompatible And what are they saying? What I think

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Speaker 1: they're saying is there's lots of small moments of disconnection

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Speaker 1: that never got repaired and it created a larger and

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Speaker 1: larger distance to there was a point where there was

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Speaker 1: a rupture in relationship and there wasn't enough good will

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Speaker 1: within the relationship to keep trying to repair it. There

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Speaker 1: was just such a divide to where both people just

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Speaker 1: concluded that we're going to part ways or one person

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Speaker 1: over the other. And I think that something similar is

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Speaker 1: happening with estrangement, because I think a lot of the

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Speaker 1: parents are asking us like, hold on, give me the

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Speaker 1: evidence of abuse, tell me the trauma. I didn't hit you.

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Speaker 1: And then the kids are like, well, hold on, it's

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Speaker 1: actually probably similar, something analogous to the divorce thing, where

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Speaker 1: it's like lots of small, little moments when I felt

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Speaker 1: like you missed me, where you dismissed something I was

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Speaker 1: interested in, where you made a little passive joke at

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Speaker 1: something that actually really mattered to me, like oh, ripped jeans,

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Speaker 1: Like oh like da da da, And then we think like, oh, what,

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Speaker 1: You're going to cut off your dad because he made

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Speaker 1: fun of your rip jeans. But then I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: hold on, what if it wasn't just the rip jeans.

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Speaker 1: What if it was also the makeup and the you know,

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Speaker 1: the septem piercing in the blue hair, like whatever it was,

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Speaker 1: it was the nine hundred comments he made about the appearance,

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Speaker 1: all little jokes, all like in and of themselves, not

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Speaker 1: really a to cut someone off, But when stacked up,

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Speaker 1: you start to feel like I just don't feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: around you. And then like how long do I come

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Speaker 1: over for dinner or hop on the phone? Calls and

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Speaker 1: grit through this discomfort. And I think for so many

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Speaker 1: adult kids, they don't feel like they have the tools

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Speaker 1: to be honest with their parents in a way that

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Speaker 1: they're responsive to because a lot of kids try, like

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Speaker 1: I talk to kids over and over in the program,

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Speaker 1: we have a you know, over two thousand adult kids

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Speaker 1: and parents from different families, but just within Estrangement dot Com,

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Speaker 1: and the kids just say over and over, it's like,

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Speaker 1: I've tried to talk to mom. I've tried to talk

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Speaker 1: to that. I've tried to set boundaries, I've tried to

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Speaker 1: kind of like talk about the impact of this. I've

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Speaker 1: used I feel statements, I've like I've done all the things,

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Speaker 1: and what I get back is dismissal, defensiveness, or throwing

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Speaker 1: the blame back on me. And I think that so

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Speaker 1: many of them just don't have the toolkit for being

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Speaker 1: able to honestly like bridge a generational divide on how

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Speaker 1: to have communication. And this is an area that I

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Speaker 1: that I'm actually theorizing a lot on and actually forming

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Speaker 1: some studies around right now, because I think there is

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Speaker 1: actually a dynamic that the way we communicate, the way

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Speaker 1: we seek connection intergenerationally between different generations, we're playing by

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Speaker 1: different playbooks, and because we're or it may be a

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Speaker 1: better analogy, because we're speaking different languages, we're not catching

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Speaker 1: the kinds of love that we're trying to send. Like

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Speaker 1: I talk to parents really frequently, like, let me just

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Speaker 1: help you adjust your wording. Let me try to help

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Speaker 1: you adjust how you're expressing love. And they're like, well,

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Speaker 1: if they can't receive my love, then they don't want to,

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Speaker 1: or like I guess I'm just not good enough. Like fine,

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Speaker 1: if they want to write me out of their lives,

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Speaker 1: they can. And I'm like, here's the thing you're what

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Speaker 1: you're experiencing is if they're rejecting the mail and I'm

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Speaker 1: telling you there's not enough postage on the mail, let

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Speaker 1: me show you how to get it to their doorstep.

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Speaker 1: Because I think what's happening is you're sharing your heart

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Speaker 1: but they can't hear you. I'm like, well, what are

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Speaker 1: you talking about? And I'm like, well, what about the worry?

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Speaker 1: So much of your concern comes out in worry, and

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Speaker 1: the fear is blocking the love in your heart that

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Speaker 1: you have for them, they're not receiving the love through

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Speaker 1: your fear. And then they're like, what can't they don't they

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Speaker 1: know that I'm worried because I care. I'm like, it's

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Speaker 1: a different language, and so I'm not asking you to lie.

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Speaker 1: Like when I talk about how to phrase things out

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Speaker 1: of word things. We have a whole thing in the

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Speaker 1: program on I'm just like literally wording and styles of

430
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:26,000
Speaker 1: repair and you know, like apologies, accountability, like emotional dialogue

431
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 1: that adult kids really are more responsive to. It was

432
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,280
Speaker 1: made by the adult kids, you know, So these aren't

433
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,119
Speaker 1: just my theories on this or that. It's like we

434
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,959
Speaker 1: literally pulled hundreds and hundreds of adult kids and we're like,

435
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:36,719
Speaker 1: I just asked the question, what do you wish your

436
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:39,639
Speaker 1: parents said? You know, it's a simple as that, what

437
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 1: do you wish your parents would say? And then I

438
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 1: just had the brilliant idea. I'm like, hey, parents, try

439
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,720
Speaker 1: saying this, you know, like you know so, and again

440
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 1: I'm not in the interest of sugar coating or lying

441
00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,080
Speaker 1: or performing. I want you to share your heart just

442
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,400
Speaker 1: with tact, with wisdom in a way they can hear it,

443
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 1: because I mean, we know from James like the tongue

444
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,479
Speaker 1: can just burn everything down. Nothing is more has more

445
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,760
Speaker 1: potential for harm or for good than the tongue. And

446
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 1: so I'm like, we need to be I just see

447
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,639
Speaker 1: Jesus being so careful on how he phrased things and

448
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,800
Speaker 1: who he addressed and even being like implicit and strategic

449
00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 1: and how he'd say things, not because he's trying to

450
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,320
Speaker 1: be any sort of way or dishonest, but just because

451
00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,919
Speaker 1: I think there's wisdom in knowing here you're speaking to

452
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 1: and expressing your heart authentically in the language of their heart.

453
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,440
Speaker 1: And I teach both that it's not just on parents.

454
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,080
Speaker 1: It's not just on parents to learn the language. I

455
00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,919
Speaker 1: teach the same thing for kids. Anyway. I've gone on

456
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 1: a big grant there what's poken out to you?

457
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 2: And I think so many things that you just listed

458
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 2: are hitting home because as I think about whether it's clients,

459
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,480
Speaker 2: whether it's just families that I'm familiar with, and I

460
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,880
Speaker 2: just I love these people. My heart goes out to them.

461
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 2: But there's so much damage. And you continually say, right,

462
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,080
Speaker 2: death by a million little cuts. And like you said,

463
00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,479
Speaker 2: just over time. Something we were chatting about earlier today

464
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,400
Speaker 2: is the differentiation between tough and talks like a lot

465
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,960
Speaker 2: of kids grow up in tough homes vice and sometimes,

466
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 2: like you said, the parent might have good intentions or

467
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 2: good motives. I love my kid, I'm challenging my kid.

468
00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,960
Speaker 2: That's just how I was raised. So that's families tend

469
00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 2: to reproduce themselves. So here they are giving their child

470
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 2: that tough love that they received because they turned out okay.

471
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:22,120
Speaker 2: But all of a sudden, they don't take the time

472
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 2: to attune themselves to him or her, their son or daughter,

473
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 2: and they find themselves creating the same level of toxicity

474
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 2: that they were raised in and it wasn't received in

475
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,399
Speaker 2: maybe the same manner, And then all of a sudden,

476
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 2: you have people. And I just thought about this phrase

477
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 2: that you mentioned. I'm just thinking about the person out

478
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:43,359
Speaker 2: there today who this is who I am. Matthias like,

479
00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 2: take it or leave it. You know, I'm going to try.

480
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 2: But at the end of the day, whether my kid

481
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 2: does it or not, it doesn't really matter. And I

482
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 2: think about what you share not long ago at that

483
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 2: ABC model, and I'd love for you just to kind

484
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 2: of share that because we're not even talking about compromise,

485
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:03,280
Speaker 2: We're talking about being curious enough to ask the right

486
00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,880
Speaker 2: questions and make less assumptions to see if you can

487
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 2: find peace with what's possible.

488
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 1: Take is there? Well, I mean I think the on

489
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: the front of it, it feels like for parents. I'll

490
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 1: speak from both lenses for a second. It's for the

491
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 1: parent it's like, oh gosh, I me held to these

492
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 1: impossible standards. Like it's like, Okay, you're reading all these

493
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 1: parenting books and watching all these tiktoks, and it's like, Okay, sorry,

494
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:24,919
Speaker 1: I didn't get the manual on how to be a

495
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: perfect parent. You know what we're saying, And you'll often

496
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,840
Speaker 1: to hear parents to have your kids like, oh, listen,

497
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 1: I really tried my best. Like I sacrificed a lot.

498
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:34,480
Speaker 1: There was so many moments where I could have chosen

499
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,479
Speaker 1: to do what was best for me, and I didn't.

500
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: I chose to do what was best for you. Like

501
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,199
Speaker 1: there was so many opportunities that I gave up on,

502
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 1: or so many times where I would have liked to ABC,

503
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: but but I gave it to you. And so like

504
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: you're gonna look at the in the face of all

505
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 1: this sacrifice, how I've just like given everything I have

506
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 1: and then just cut me off like none of it

507
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 1: mattered well, and it just feels like it's such a

508
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,679
Speaker 1: gesture of disrespect. It's such an insult, it's such like

509
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,680
Speaker 1: it's so preposterous. But then what I'm supposed to grovel

510
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 1: and like fall on my sword and like dance around

511
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 1: and use all these like your therapists, you know, coded

512
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:13,199
Speaker 1: words like no thanks, like I've already given everything. How

513
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: about you show up a little bit in the relationship

514
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 1: and do some work and try to come towards me

515
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 1: and see me. So that's the heart, and I don't

516
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 1: have any confrontation or judgment towards that parent in the slightest.

517
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: I'm never calling anybody out. I'm just calling people into

518
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,719
Speaker 1: clarity that what we're not doing is falling on our

519
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,680
Speaker 1: swords or groveling. What we are doing is moving into

520
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,919
Speaker 1: humility to see like maybe there were times where I

521
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,880
Speaker 1: could have moved towards them. Here's here's what I mean.

522
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,120
Speaker 1: And I'll just be specific here because I just feel

523
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 1: like it's helpful if it's more specific. Let's say there

524
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: was a moment when you disciplined your kid, and let's

525
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,119
Speaker 1: say it's genuine like that they knew they shouldn't have

526
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: done that, and they did, and let's see you move

527
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: towards them in a strong assertive way. And then you

528
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,239
Speaker 1: saw them shrink a bit, like you saw some light

529
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: go out of their eyes, like you almost saw some

530
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: pain in there. And there's a part of you that

531
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 1: was like, I wonder if they need something else for

532
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: me right now. And I know that I need a

533
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: hold structure right like I know I need to hold

534
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 1: disappoint but but there's just a question mark in the

535
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 1: back of my head, like I'm not fully certain. Maybe

536
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 1: they need something else. And in those moments, I think

537
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: we have three options. I call this the ABC's you

538
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: know of conflict first as that I can avoid it.

539
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: I can just and I honestly, as a parent, I

540
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 1: do this all the time. I was like, well, you know,

541
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 1: like I have a three year old who had to

542
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:37,199
Speaker 1: melt down yesterday before I came here that he couldn't

543
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: have a snack it was dinner time and he wanted

544
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: a snack instead. I'm like, no, we have dinner and

545
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 1: he's like, no, I want snack, And what he means

546
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 1: is he wants crackers and I'm like, no, we made

547
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,959
Speaker 1: this whole meal. You can't just have crackers. And then

548
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: he falls on the ground sobbing, and then I'm like,

549
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: it's so easier for me to just roll my eyes

550
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 1: and be like, listen, kid, it gets so much worse

551
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: from here, Like life is so much harder than just

552
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 1: snack versus meals. So like I don't have a lot

553
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,959
Speaker 1: of empathy obviously for like, oh, poor you like crackers?

554
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: What am I gonna do to get down there? Like,

555
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: but when I notice, like when I rise in intensity

556
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: and now you get really dismissive, like like sit down,

557
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 1: he gets worse, meaning like he cries harder. And if

558
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 1: I just slow down and I'm gentle in his little

559
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 1: three year old world of disappointment, that's what he's learning

560
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 1: how to do. He's learning how to manage disappointment. He

561
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,360
Speaker 1: hasn't had a lot of practice. He's only had three

562
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: years of practice of managing disappointment. And I've done a

563
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 1: good job, which means that crackers is a big deal.

564
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: That's actually like in evidence that I'm doing okay, Like

565
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: he's not. There's like the hardest thing in his life

566
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: is he doesn't get crackers. That means I've done a

567
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 1: good job building an environment where he's flourishing and he's

568
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: doing all right. So so I shouldn't be too you know,

569
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: dismissive of this. Let me help him learn how to

570
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 1: be disappointed about crackers. Right, So the whole gentle parenting

571
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: thing might say like, okay, let's just give him the crackers,

572
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: you know, but like we're gonna hold We're gonna hold

573
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 1: sturdy here. But can I be with him in the

574
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: disappointment and emotionally resonate with him extead of just my

575
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: sternness or my boundary? Can I hold the boundary with

576
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 1: warmth as God does for us? Right, It's like we

577
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: have love and truth with God, we have justice and

578
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: an invitation. As a father, he's not just the judge,

579
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 1: he's the father, but he's both, you know. So it's like,

580
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: can I hold that fatherly heart towards my kid even

581
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,719
Speaker 1: though I can't relate to it? And I mean crackers,

582
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 1: you know, it gets so much worse than crackers, but

583
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 1: he doesn't know that yet. Okay, anyway, so I have

584
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: the first ABC's I can avoid this. I can just

585
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,439
Speaker 1: be like, well, all right, you gotta sit down. If

586
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: you're not going to sit down, you don't get dinner

587
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: and you have to live with the consequences. So I

588
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,679
Speaker 1: can just avoid this whole thing the next one, you know,

589
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 1: be I can blame him and be like, listen, you're

590
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: not listening, you know. I can go on a whole rant,

591
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: a little lecture, you know, kind of going into this

592
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 1: is you, it's all you, you know, or I can

593
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: get curious. And I think so many parents struggle with

594
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: this idea of like, well as I was supposed to

595
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 1: go back and be a perfect parent, Like no, like

596
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: we're not mind readers, and no one's asking you to

597
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 1: time travel and go back and do things different. We can't.

598
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,359
Speaker 1: But the idea is like, do you have curiosity now

599
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 1: even on what it was like, not if you did

600
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,360
Speaker 1: the right thing the wrong thing, because you might think like, well,

601
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,359
Speaker 1: I didn't have any better resources. I didn't I didn't

602
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: know what to do at the time, Like I was

603
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: just doing my best. And it's like that's why I'm

604
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: not actually calling that into question. I'm just asking him, like,

605
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: are you curious? Well with that little bit of fright

606
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,479
Speaker 1: in his eyes, you know, going back to the example,

607
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: you disciplined him, you stern, you saw a little bit

608
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,000
Speaker 1: of pain in his eyes, and it's like, maybe I

609
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: should have checked up on him, and maybe you didn't

610
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: know how to, you didn't know what he needed. But

611
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: I could have just gone and been like, here are

612
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: you okay? Maybe I said something insulting in the moment,

613
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: like you're being so difficult. Maybe I could apologize for that.

614
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I should I shouldn't. That was my anger.

615
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 1: That wasn't That wasn't my principled spirit led you know love.

616
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,840
Speaker 1: That was my anger, and my flesh got in there

617
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: and called you a label, started making you feel bad

618
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: and shaming you. That was on me, Like can I

619
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:50,920
Speaker 1: be mad enough for, you know, in my case as

620
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:56,159
Speaker 1: a dad, to like to own that? So can I

621
00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,159
Speaker 1: be courageous enough to extend a bit of curiosity? And

622
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: then what we find is that so many adult kids,

623
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: they don't want you to just list off all your

624
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: grievances and just admit that you were this terrible parent

625
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: and all these like it feels like you're kind of

626
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: being put on trial to listen to the litigation of

627
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 1: all these awful things that you've done. It's not that

628
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: it's like acknowledge it was hard because kiddo, you know,

629
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: in that example, like, let's use the cracker example. It's

630
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: just like, I don't know. I was just disappointed. I

631
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: just wanted you to say, like, yeah, it sucks. It

632
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: sucks that it can of crackers. I know you're you

633
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,879
Speaker 1: know Lisagni or whatever. It wasn't well you hadn't, but

634
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: it's okay. I just needed you to rub my back

635
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,800
Speaker 1: for a minute. I was gonna. I was figuring out

636
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: how to regulate the disappointment, but I just needed time.

637
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 1: You were rushing me. I was three. You wanted me

638
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: to instantly just get on board with the lasagna, but

639
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: I'm still practicing, So it was. It wouldn't have taken

640
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: twenty minutes if you weren't so dismissive. If you would

641
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: have just gotten down on the ground and rub my

642
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: back a minute, probably within three five minutes, I would

643
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: have been fine and we would sat at the table.

644
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: But because you lectured me, because you talked to about

645
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: how difficult I was, I ramped up into this big tantrum,

646
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: and you can call it a tantrum. That's the blame.

647
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: And really I was just overwhelmed, and mostly because of

648
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: your anger, because you're a big dude. You're ten times

649
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: bigger than me, and so when you're raising your voice

650
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 1: at me and your big, low, boomy voice, it freaks

651
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: me out. And I expressed that through crying. So I

652
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: don't know how to tell you because I'm three, that's

653
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: what's going on. And so then I'm like, parent, can

654
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: you see that? Can you can you see that?

655
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: That was?

656
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: Like this minor wound happens in every family, like what

657
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: I just described. I don't know if there's a dad

658
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: on the planet that hasn't had a moment like that

659
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 1: I have. I'm literally describing what happened to me yesterday.

660
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: So it was like, so we all have those moments.

661
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: What creates estrangement, what creates trauma is not those moments,

662
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: it's what happens next. Did we ignore it or did

663
00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: we repair it? And when you don't acknowledge, when we

664
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: do not confess our sins as a parent, as dads,

665
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: as moms, even to our kids inappropriate times, then that

666
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: takes up space in our life and takes up space

667
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: in our relationship. There's freedom in the truth. There's freedom

668
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: and confession and repentance. We receive freedom, not in just

669
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: moving on. So many parents are like, well, why are

670
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: we doing in the past. I can't just move on, well,

671
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: I can't just let it go. And it's like, because

672
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: that's not that's not even what scripture asks us to do.

673
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 1: These are like I just feel like these boundaries, Like

674
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: we see a lot of conversation around boundaries, and I'm

675
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 1: reluctant to use that word in the curriculum that we

676
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: teach at the program because I just don't think parents

677
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 1: like it's just a it's a vocab word mismatch because

678
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: somebody parents are like like, essentially they hear the word

679
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: boundary and they think, oh, this is an adult kid

680
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,040
Speaker 1: trying to push me away, you know. And something I

681
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 1: tell adult kids a lot of the time is like,

682
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: there's so many of us. Our desire is to hear

683
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: our mom and dad just say like, I shouldn't given

684
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: you such hard time about the crackers. And it's not

685
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: even like we desire that they should have given us

686
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: the crackers. That's almost the misunderstanding. It's like, well, you

687
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: shouldn't have been so mean, you should have just give

688
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: me the crackers. No, No, it's just like I'm actually fine

689
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 1: that you held whatever rule you needed to hold there.

690
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: It's just the how it's not the what, it's the

691
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 1: how that was the damage, and the parent is like, well,

692
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: I was really focused in on the what and then

693
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: all the external factors that were limiting me, especially with mom.

694
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot,

695
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: and I'm just saying, like I hear lots of moms

696
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: where were just like I didn't have any support, your

697
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: father wasn't involved or not around, especially in the divorce thing.

698
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: I didn't have any I don't know, like parenting books

699
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: like you did. I was exhausted, I was working full time,

700
00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: like and then your sibling maybe was sick or like

701
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: this and that, like they have good reasons. None of

702
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: this is like I'm not being dismissive here, like good

703
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: reasons and sometimes what adult kids don't know how to say.

704
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: It's like, Mom, I'm not trying to get you to

705
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: admit that you're some terrible person. I just want you

706
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 1: to hear what it was like for me. How it

707
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 1: made me feel is like almost like tropy, like therapisty

708
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: as that sounds how it made me feel. And so

709
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,240
Speaker 1: the first thing that I teach parents in the program

710
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: is just that question, the question of what was it

711
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: like for you when and oftentimes the thing we're apologizing

712
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: for isn't some big abstract thing. I mean, it's something

713
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 1: you can just put in your pocket for anyone listening.

714
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 1: Is just oftentimes it's I should have checked in on

715
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: you more. I should have kept asking questions. Like I

716
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: can give an example, like I was talking to a

717
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: mom that's like, well, I don't even know why she's

718
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: so mad, you know, like, it's not like I could

719
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: control anything. It's not like I control that dad left.

720
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: And I'm like, tell me about the first meal you

721
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: had after your husband left. Well, we had pizza. Let

722
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:49,239
Speaker 1: me just watched a movie, okay, tell me about the conversation. Oh,

723
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,320
Speaker 1: we didn't talk okay. And then after the movie pizza,

724
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: what happens? So well, she went to her room and

725
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: where do you go? It's like, well, I went to

726
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: my room. I just went to bed. And I'm like,

727
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: all right, here's how an apology coulds sound, honey, I

728
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: should have just checked in on you. And then MoMA says, well,

729
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do. I was I was

730
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: grieving too, I was overwhelmed. I didn't know what to say.

731
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 1: I didn't know she needed me to ask something you

732
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: don't need to know all those things. It's not like, again,

733
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to be a mind reader. It's

734
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: just something like, honey, I you can even say I

735
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: was overwhelmed that night, be really brief on that point.

736
00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: We don't want to sound like we're making excuses or

737
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: like trying to explain that doesn't heal, But just like

738
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: I was really overwhelmed. But what I should have done,

739
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: what I wish I would have done. I love that phrasing,

740
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,719
Speaker 1: what I wish I would have done? Just come into

741
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: your room and ask how you doing? And then sometimes

742
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: you know, in the group, what we do is we'll

743
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 1: bring on parents onto the call and kids onto the call,

744
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 1: and we'll do work in front of the whole group.

745
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 1: So there's like there's a maybe a few hundred people

746
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: on the call, and some brave souls will come up.

747
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 1: So I have a parent and an adult kid, and

748
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: I'll do work for like twenty minutes just with that person,

749
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: one on one, but in front of everyone, cause we

750
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 1: all get to learn from each other's experience. And you

751
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: gets here from an adult kid and a parent. So

752
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: I'll talk to a mom and maybe sometimes mom will

753
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 1: say like, well, I didn't know. I tried it asking

754
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: like great. So the apology there is that I should

755
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: have kept asking. Well, I didn't know what she wanted

756
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: for me. I know I should have kept asking. I

757
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: did ask, should have asked again. And I'm not saying

758
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:14,720
Speaker 1: you should have in the sense of like I'm blaming

759
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: on I'm just saying the thing we apologize for there,

760
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: if we're looking for, what do I say? What I

761
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 1: say is I should have kept trying. Well, there's no

762
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: way I could have gotten through to her. Then I

763
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: should have kept trying to find a way to get

764
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: through why I was. I was exhausted, I was on

765
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: my last limb, and then I just validated Like, of course,

766
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to paint some rosy picture that all

767
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 1: of us are we're supposed to be just like bat

768
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: in a thousand his parents. I'm just talking about like

769
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: someone had to absorb the cost of that moment, and

770
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 1: perhaps in like in that setting, it was it was them.

771
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 1: They had to go to bed not knowing what to

772
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 1: do and not knowing how to talk about it, and

773
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: they had to go to sleep alone with that. And

774
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 1: that's not to try to make you feel guilty It's

775
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 1: just that's where you start. For so many parents is

776
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:06,440
Speaker 1: like where do you even start? You start with those

777
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: moments and opening a conversation with like even with kids

778
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: you have good relationships with that, you want deeper relationships with. Man.

779
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 1: I knowed there was times I was really I was

780
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: really big on your grades and it really rode you.

781
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 1: I just want to know what was that like for you? Well,

782
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 1: I mean it was good. I'm really glad that you

783
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: did that. It really pushed me out. That was good.

784
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: Was there every time that it was hard? Ah? Well,

785
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: you know there were some times like well there's a

786
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: one test in history where it wasn't even my fault,

787
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: but then you grounded me anyway. But I just as

788
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: hard as trying to explain it to you. But you

789
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: weren't really hear me out on it. Oh what happened?

790
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 1: Remind me? Oh, well, I should have listened to you.

791
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: I should have slowed down. That's a good one. I

792
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: should have slowed down. I should have just slowed down

793
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 1: and asked more questions. I should have waited before I responded.

794
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: I should have calmed down before I responded. And those

795
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:57,920
Speaker 1: are all great things, because again, you're not admitting that

796
00:35:58,000 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: you should have had this like supernatural knowledge of the

797
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 1: per thing to do in this situation. It's just I

798
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 1: should have just slowed down, you know. So it's those

799
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: little things that make a huge difference. And let me

800
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: flip it, because I've been talking a lot about the

801
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 1: parents for a second. For the adult kid, though, it's like, well,

802
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: do you have any questions on that point? Before I

803
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,840
Speaker 1: just switch gears, I would ask the question.

804
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking about different family dynamics that I've seen

805
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 2: throughout the years, and I think sometimes parents don't bring

806
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 2: up some of these things, or maybe they try to

807
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: avoid the past and different things like that because they're

808
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,799
Speaker 2: afraid because they know the answer they're gonna get. They

809
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,879
Speaker 2: know that sometimes their adult children are going to bring

810
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: up all the moments where they messed up, and sometimes

811
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 2: you have to have the humility to sit in those

812
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 2: moments in the discomfort, knowing that what you're doing, by

813
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:55,320
Speaker 2: whether it's apologizing, whether it's taking responsibility, is potentially leading

814
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 2: us on a path of healing. But that's like the

815
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 2: first step is giving them a void because I just

816
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: I've seen it so often where parents like won't they

817
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 2: don't want to talk about it because they know they

818
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 2: know what they're going to say. They remember those moments

819
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 2: just as much as the kids do, but they're so embarrassed,

820
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: they're so ashamed that they just allow their silence to

821
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: become deafening.

822
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's one of two things. You're right,

823
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: one hundred percent, there's that, Yeah, But on another level,

824
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: like or other folks listening might feel like, I mean,

825
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: it was pretty good, and maybe my kid kind of

826
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: has a negative view on things, and so if I

827
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: start bringing up on the negative stuff, it might make

828
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 1: a negative suff bigger. And so it's like, why are

829
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: we doing on the negative? Why are we trying to

830
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 1: just talk about all the bad times? Like And there's

831
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: also a feeling of like, listen, my parents aren't perfect.

832
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: You don't see me like dwelling on all the negative,

833
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 1: you know.

834
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 2: So it's like sometimes you don't want to always go

835
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: back to the past. It's kind of like a hey,

836
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: every time the past gets brought up, it's just danger.

837
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't makes it worse. And I think there's

838
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: also a lot of folks and this is kind of

839
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: like a traditional family value thing, depending culturally where you

840
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: come from. I see this a lot, for example, in

841
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 1: Asian families and Indian families and African family where it's

842
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,239
Speaker 1: like part of the value. The way we express love

843
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 1: is something called forbearance. It's like perseverance, like persevering through

844
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: the hard times, moving through it. Russians same thing. I'm like, listen,

845
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: I'm not going to hold the old stuff against you.

846
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: We're just gonna let kind of time heal all wounds.

847
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: And what I'd say is like for families that are

848
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: all in agreement on that do what you gotta do.

849
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: But for families where the kid, let's say, is westernized

850
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: and is more accommodated to what's in the literature called

851
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: democratized kinship. If you look up a study by Resec,

852
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: she's a brilliant scholar in this area. She talks about

853
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: there's a family value shift within westernization, within individualism that

854
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: moves the center of love being from like, hey, love

855
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 1: means I bear with you through all things, and then

856
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 1: door through all things into love means we talk directly

857
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: about the areas where there's hurt, and then we go

858
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: through a repair process so that we can heal those

859
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 1: woonds and relieve it. And then so you and I

860
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: can have a frictionless relationship or as close to that

861
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 1: as we can manage. So it's like, and honestly, those

862
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: are cultural references. It's like what do we do. Do

863
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: we like bear with it or do we like talk

864
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 1: about it directly? Honestly, in some cases it's one or

865
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: the others, probably more wise depending on the situation, but

866
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: it's helpful to know that that. It's like, well, hold on,

867
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 1: Like what I did with my parents was I just

868
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: beared through it. And you might come from a more

869
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: traditional cultural background. It's weird to think that way because

870
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: it's like, well, we're in the same culture and the

871
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 1: same family, but if you're born before nineteen eighty, you

872
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: don't maybe know what it's like to grow up on

873
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: the internet and the globalization and the cultural shifts that

874
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: have happened in the past just twenty years are dramatic.

875
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, the millennials and the boomers

876
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,360
Speaker 1: are they may as well be on different contents sometimes,

877
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: and that's expressed I think within the family conflicts when

878
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 1: they talk past each other. You know, for the kids,

879
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,359
Speaker 1: they're trying to set boundaries and hope that their parents

880
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:55,959
Speaker 1: can acknowledge the boundaries. We talk about differentiation. Some parents

881
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,479
Speaker 1: don't even know what that freaking means. You know, they're

882
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: just like they I'm pushing you away, and what we

883
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: mean this is like kids, this is apparently like how

884
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: to say it in parent language. You know, we talk

885
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: a lot of parents how to speaking to kid language,

886
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: but you know kids have speaking parent language. These are

887
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: the ways I feel connected to you, and when we

888
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,800
Speaker 1: when these are in place, I feel so much closer.

889
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 1: So it's like, please take off your shoes because I

890
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: want you to come in the house instead of hey,

891
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: are those shoes on your feet. That's my boundary, which

892
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,879
Speaker 1: feels to them like you're not letting them in. What

893
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: you mean is like, if you can just take off

894
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: your shoes, I want you to come in. Lead with that.

895
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: It's the same thing, you're just saying it a little different.

896
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: These are the ways I want to be close to you,

897
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: and even that can be triggering, I think for parents

898
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: who are more hierarchical, so especially parents in Asian communities

899
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:48,839
Speaker 1: or where there's like high levels of eldership authority. Not

900
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: even Asian, I mean like even wide America, Like there's plenty,

901
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: but it just to the degree that eldership is a

902
00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:58,240
Speaker 1: high value within the family. Any confrontation, any you should

903
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: do anything different is viewed as a gestro disrespect to

904
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 1: a parent. And so that's where it's like, there's no

905
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: perfect way to frame all these things. There's no perfect

906
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: way to say things that a parent's can to respond

907
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: one hundred percent, there's no perfect way to say things

908
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: that a kids can responde hundred percent. We have a

909
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: negotiation of these differing family values. Meaning a kid that

910
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: is growing up in a culture that says, I want

911
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: to talk directly about the wounds, repair them, not just

912
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: bear under them, you know, but and then have a really,

913
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 1: let's say, like intentional, emotionally honest relationship where we trade

914
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: compliments and praise and can confront people on the things

915
00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 1: that are bugging us. It's just we don't think about

916
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 1: that as a cultural worldview, but it is, and I

917
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: don't know, like it's not very common one. I'm not

918
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: saying it's better or worse, a bad or whatever. I'm

919
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,959
Speaker 1: just saying that it is something cultural. So it's fine

920
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: that you want that with your parent. You got to

921
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:52,440
Speaker 1: negotiate that though. That's a negotiation of connection, and you're

922
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: probably going to get some of that and not others,

923
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: and meaning that you might feel like it like I

924
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,520
Speaker 1: don't know. You're very frequently frequently from adult kids that

925
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,479
Speaker 1: their parents are narcissistic, and I think there certainly are.

926
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 1: There certainly are narcissistic parents who are abusive and exploitive

927
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: and they mean to harm their kids. That is, I

928
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 1: mean clearly in the population that's undisputed that there are

929
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: certain of his parents out there. And I think that

930
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 1: a lot of old kind of collectivist, traditionalist values when

931
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: contrast against these modern democratized kinship values that I'm describing,

932
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: can look narcissistic and can look exploitive in the sense

933
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 1: there's a power differential that goes one way and not

934
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,600
Speaker 1: the other. That's hierarchy, right, So like as a parent,

935
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: I feel entitled to tell you how to live your

936
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: life and the choices you need to make, and I

937
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 1: feel like I have a say, I have equity in

938
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 1: the kinds of decisions you make, and then when you

939
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,319
Speaker 1: defy me, you get the tattoo. Anyway, you don't go

940
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: to the school that I tell you to do, you

941
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: don't listen to me when I tell you not to

942
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 1: marry that person. I feel not just like disappointed. I

943
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: feel offended. Right, that can feel like, oh my gosh,

944
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: my mom's so controlling, my dad so controlling. They think

945
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,280
Speaker 1: they are entitled to me, Like when they take credit

946
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 1: for my success. I hear that over and over and

947
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:05,799
Speaker 1: over again.

948
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: Yep.

949
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: Right, that's a traditionalist value thing. That is that is

950
00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:13,919
Speaker 1: common in nearly every culture in the world through all

951
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: of time. And when you see that, like on an

952
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: anthropological level, we can take away the toxicity from that

953
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 1: and we could say, like, Okay, I wonder what's really

954
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: underneath it for the parent, because maybe the parent is

955
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: just narcissistically, just trying to take credit for my thing

956
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 1: and then undermine me and they just think they're the

957
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: center of the universe. Maybe maybe So I'm not trying

958
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 1: to dismiss that if there's little kids with narcissistic parents,

959
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 1: Like I want your healing, I'm not trying to guilt you,

960
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 1: but I'm just opening up the question mark of like

961
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: sometimes parents see their own identity through their children, because

962
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: our identity isn't just a self isolated, expressive thing with

963
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: my own emotions, tastes, dreams, desires, and worldview self what

964
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: we think of it, this self as a shared thing.

965
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 1: I share that with my family. So when my kid

966
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: experiences a success, I experience the joy as if it

967
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:13,439
Speaker 1: was mine when they and it flips the other way

968
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: when they go through failure, I internalize it as my own.

969
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: So it cuts both ways. If it cuts both ways,

970
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: that's a good sign. It's not narcissistic. If it's narcissistic,

971
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,359
Speaker 1: usually just cuts one way. If it's success, it's that

972
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: If you fail, that's on you. You're a piece of garbage.

973
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: But if it cuts both ways, that's a good sign.

974
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:34,319
Speaker 1: It's a collectivist value or traditional value, which is if

975
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: you fail, I'm going to give you my input. I'm

976
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: going to try to fix it. I'm going to try

977
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 1: to guide you. I'm going to give you all my

978
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 1: suggestions to try to get you up the bar, which

979
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: can feel like a burden in itself. It's like, well, gosh,

980
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: my mom is so critical, she worries about everything, she's

981
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 1: so negative. I hear that over and over and over,

982
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,320
Speaker 1: and sometimes there's an anthropological dimension to it. I'm not

983
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: saying it's all that, So don't hear me kids as

984
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: saying like, listen, it's all just culture. I'm not saying

985
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: all I'm saying, but what if this is an ingredient

986
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,719
Speaker 1: in the soup and it's not an ingredient I here

987
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 1: talked about anywhere. But when you can see that and

988
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 1: you're like, huh, okay, my mom is critical. Let's just

989
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: say that. And that's not her trying to say I'm

990
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: not good enough for her. That's her saying, like, I

991
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 1: don't know how to deal with the fear of you

992
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 1: not being okay according to my standards, because okay for

993
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: me means you need to be married, and you need

994
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 1: to pay off your house, you need to do and

995
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: that for the kid. There's like, that's actually not my dream.

996
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: My dream isn't actually to go get married by twenty

997
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 1: two and then to own a house and a golden retriever.

998
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,240
Speaker 1: Like good for those people, But like maybe that's not Michael.

999
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 1: I just want to, like, you know, pursue my art.

1000
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: And maybe to Mom that's like a colossal, you know, catastrophe,

1001
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: and so she's hypercritical about it. And we could think

1002
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: I'll like Mom only accepts the version of me that

1003
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 1: lives up to her standards. But that is a narrative

1004
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: that positions mom. I think in a way that's not

1005
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: culturally resonant with her intentions. And I'm not saying intentions

1006
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: or everything, because listen, there's intentions and there's impact. Those

1007
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: are different. I'm just it's almost like we're trying to

1008
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: wade into this almost impossible middle territory where it's like,

1009
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in finding excuses for everything or explaining

1010
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: everything away. I'm only interested in the truth for me.

1011
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, I want to see things objectively. If I

1012
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: can see it objectively, then I can set boundaries with it.

1013
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,840
Speaker 1: Because the reality is I could look at Mom like,

1014
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 1: let's say I'm pursuing my art. Mom wants me married

1015
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 1: with a golden tree or whatever, and I can say, Mom,

1016
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,239
Speaker 1: when you talk about how disappointed you are that I'm

1017
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: not married, and you ask if I'm dating someone, it

1018
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: really makes it hard for me to connect with you.

1019
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: I want to connect with you. I want to feel

1020
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: warm with you, I want to feel relaxed with you.

1021
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 1: When you ask those questions, I feel far from you.

1022
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: Notice that's the difference than Mom, I'm setting a boundary.

1023
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: Don't ask about my dating life. Feels different. Mom's going

1024
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,440
Speaker 1: to go well, I guess, I guess my opinion just

1025
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,480
Speaker 1: doesn't mean matter anymore, Mom's going to feel really rejected

1026
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 1: and like passive aggressive. It's not like the actual comps

1027
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:57,319
Speaker 1: are going to go away. They're just gonna get more

1028
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: implicit and more irritating. So but when you say, mom,

1029
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: I know you want my flourishing, I know you want

1030
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: my best. I know you care so much, not just

1031
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: about grandchildren, but about our whole family and my future.

1032
00:47:11,080 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: And I love this line, I want your trust. When

1033
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: you don't trust me, it pushes me away so well,

1034
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:19,719
Speaker 1: I only wan what's best for you. I know you

1035
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: want what's best. Now I'm asking for you to trust me,

1036
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: because that's the truth. Even collectivism, individualism aside. Yes, parents

1037
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 1: are not trusting when they're when they're suggestion, micromanager, a guidance,

1038
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: do dot dot dot dot. There's essentially saying you need

1039
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 1: my intervention or you're going to make a terrible mistake.

1040
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:39,360
Speaker 1: And they could be right, they could be wrong. Whatever.

1041
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: But in this modernized world, if democratize kinship, which prioritizes

1042
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: things like autonomy, making your own personal choices, emotional disclosure,

1043
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,720
Speaker 1: direct communication, what's called low context communication in anthropology world,

1044
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,840
Speaker 1: I get list off several other things. There needs to

1045
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: be a honestly, like a whole back of those suggestions

1046
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,440
Speaker 1: until you ask permission or or it's asked for. And

1047
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: that's a really hard pill to swallow, But that's part

1048
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: of the negotiation of these different cultural values because that

1049
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,480
Speaker 1: might feel like obviously like a like a huge loss,

1050
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 1: like gosh, my kid doesn't want my opinion ever, And

1051
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 1: I would say that honestly, they they might want it

1052
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: more often when you send it with the right kind

1053
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 1: of postage on the mail. And I can show you

1054
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 1: that in the program, we talk about how to approach

1055
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: kids with suggestions and advice. I'm not saying like full stop,

1056
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: don't I'm saying, let's talk about how and so, And

1057
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: that's honestly informed by a lot of the adult kids

1058
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 1: in the program. It's just like I actually don't mind

1059
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: that my mom or dad has an opinion about this

1060
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: or that. But if you're gonna flat out tell me them,

1061
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 1: like you don't like my husband and you just you

1062
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: don't ever want to talk to him again, Like where

1063
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: does that leave us? Yes, Like where do we go

1064
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,319
Speaker 1: from here? You know, Like, so we got to negotiate

1065
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: something else. And if you feel entitled to that opinion,

1066
00:48:59,840 --> 00:49:02,800
Speaker 1: you're not willing to come towards me at all. Of course,

1067
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: there's gonna be a boundary between you and me. But

1068
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: at the same time, if the let's say the daughter

1069
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: in this instance wants to like confront mom on her

1070
00:49:12,920 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: hatred of her husband, you're not gonna say, my boundary

1071
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,520
Speaker 1: is that you talk to my husband or I'm out.

1072
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 1: MOMSA doesn't even know. It's not even then the dictionary

1073
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: for her in a lot of cases, and so we can't. Again,

1074
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 1: it's not like the perfect wording forces them to respond,

1075
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:32,280
Speaker 1: and sort like we can't control other people. We cannot

1076
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 1: control how other people respond. But my point is we

1077
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: can't influence them. So my question is already being a

1078
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: good steward of your influence or you navigating your influence

1079
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 1: with wisdom. And our influence is most persuasive and powerful

1080
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: when it is grounded in our peace, when it's grounded

1081
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,239
Speaker 1: and the peace that passes all understanding, and when it

1082
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,479
Speaker 1: comes from a place of love and truth. I'm gonna

1083
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: be objective. I'm not just gonna try to fit you

1084
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: into some narrative that makes you toxic. I'm gonna be

1085
00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 1: objective and think about this with your background in place,

1086
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 1: your trauma, your culture in place. I'm gonna let all

1087
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 1: the factors be on the table and make a decision

1088
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: that is whise for me and my family. That's harder

1089
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 1: for kids, because kids, it's almost like we want to

1090
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 1: stack up all the reasons that justify us setting a boundary,

1091
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 1: and so we're inclined to be a bit hyperbolic or

1092
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 1: exaggerated on the intensity of it. Because I'll speak of

1093
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 1: my own life, I'm not gonna put anything on anyone

1094
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:30,839
Speaker 1: else here. I sometimes told a story about my dad.

1095
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: I had a strange with my dad that lasted three years.

1096
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 1: I told a story that was aligned with the emotion

1097
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: that I felt, but often was exaggerating some of the reality.

1098
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:46,600
Speaker 1: And that was hard for me to hold internally because

1099
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 1: it felt true. But I am inviting into kids. It's like,

1100
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,400
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you to give up your emotional experience.

1101
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: I'm asking you to just speak truthfully and hold for

1102
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: what you need. My mom is well intentioned, and she

1103
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 1: can't parent my kids in front of me well she

1104
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: means well, means well or not. This isn't something that's

1105
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: healthy for them or for me. And so it's like,

1106
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 1: do we have the courage and the confidence and the

1107
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: truth in ourselves to be able to say this is

1108
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: the side of the negotiation I have to hold for

1109
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,840
Speaker 1: me and my family. Sorry, you can't chastise my kids

1110
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: and call them names. It's just I'm not going to

1111
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,280
Speaker 1: stand for it. And we could talk about trauma histories

1112
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:33,960
Speaker 1: and her thing and what she means by it all day,

1113
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, it's like, yeah, sorry,

1114
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,279
Speaker 1: you can't. You can't insult my kids and so what

1115
00:51:39,560 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean we have to write a narrative that

1116
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:45,440
Speaker 1: Painters is a villain? Do you see the tension on Trendhold,

1117
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 1: that's both.

1118
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: It's both with us, man, I could truly have a

1119
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: conversation with you the last months, just because you have

1120
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 2: so much wisdom, so much knowledge around this topic, and

1121
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 2: so much experience and even just hearing some of these

1122
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 2: cases or some of these conversations, even with your members

1123
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 2: and different people that you've had the opportunity of just

1124
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 2: guiding conversations back toward this process of healing. And I

1125
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:13,239
Speaker 2: want to end the conversation here in a moment with

1126
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 2: the idea of like some steps, But before we get there,

1127
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 2: I'm just something you mentioned today even during lunch was

1128
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: the idea of just everybody continuing to walk away from

1129
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 2: their faith in this idea of deconstruction, and how there's

1130
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:36,800
Speaker 2: this possibility that estrangement has a linkage to the eternal.

1131
00:52:37,360 --> 00:52:39,920
Speaker 2: That people and the family dynamics and what they grew

1132
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 2: up with it actually is now impacting their view of God.

1133
00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:47,080
Speaker 2: It's negatively infecting it. And it's this idea that, man,

1134
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,920
Speaker 2: that's why the family matters so much. And I'd love

1135
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: to hear just some of the research, some of the

1136
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: things that you found in terms of how the family

1137
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 2: relationship and some of these things, some of these instances,

1138
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 2: some of these conversations, because like you mentioning, your presentation

1139
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: really impacts somebody's perception, and their perception ultimately dictates sometimes

1140
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 2: the reality. And so it's being able to recognize, man,

1141
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 2: this stuff matters because it positively or negatively might impact

1142
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 2: the relationship to somebody has with God.

1143
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: Speak to that of you, well, I mean, I'll tell

1144
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,360
Speaker 1: you just from my own experience. First, it was like

1145
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: my parents that loved me, but I didn't always receive

1146
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:33,759
Speaker 1: the love through the high expectations in the discipline. I

1147
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: believe they loved me and they meant warmth towards me often,

1148
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 1: and the warmth was blocked by some of the punishments

1149
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: I received growing up that felt in some cases violent

1150
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 1: and oftentimes very cold and unfeeling. And I grew up

1151
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: feeling like God had high expectations of me. It was

1152
00:53:56,480 --> 00:54:01,520
Speaker 1: not very warm and if I failed, there was punishments

1153
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: to follow, and that stuck and would not uproot until

1154
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 1: I dealt with my feelings with my mom and dad.

1155
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:15,359
Speaker 1: And I'm not speaking all of them. I love them,

1156
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 1: they love me. I know that we have a great

1157
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 1: relationship today. We've healed through that, but it's it was

1158
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: a huge boundary and my relationship with God. But once

1159
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: I realized the real tension I was feeling was between

1160
00:54:28,000 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: me and my earthly dad, and then once that was

1161
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 1: clarified and healed, my relationship with my heavenly Father became

1162
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 1: a lot more clear. And it's not get everything evaborated

1163
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 1: overnight and then it's like a perfect faith or something,

1164
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: But it didn't have let's say, like a ten thousand

1165
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: pound weight on top of it. That wasn't actually about

1166
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 1: my relationship with God. It was actually about my relationship

1167
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: with my I mean, think about it, because like we

1168
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:54,879
Speaker 1: use this sort of attachment all the time. I think

1169
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 1: about him like roads. It's like, these are the highways

1170
00:54:57,360 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: and buyoways that we connect to people on, so that

1171
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: it impact our romantic relationships and impacts our friendships and

1172
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:07,600
Speaker 1: impacts our relationship with God. We receive connection and love

1173
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: and then we anticipate rejection and abandonment along the roads

1174
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 1: of our parents. It's so pervasive. And that's not to

1175
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 1: blame parents for everything. I just think it's it's just

1176
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 1: the water we swim in. I think is self evident.

1177
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: It's like, so I'm obviously a fish is going to

1178
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: look at God through the water it's swimming in. You know.

1179
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:32,120
Speaker 1: It's like and so if you're in murky water, it's

1180
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: hard to find God in the murky water. So it's

1181
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:37,960
Speaker 1: like there's so much I think healing that comes not

1182
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: just relationally with the parents and therapy, but also happens

1183
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 1: within the faith of someone who really heals those moments.

1184
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:50,439
Speaker 1: Takes so much pressure I think off of someone trying

1185
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: to authentically negotiate their faith, because I think that every

1186
00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:57,359
Speaker 1: adult within our culture has a negotiation of their faith,

1187
00:55:57,360 --> 00:55:59,359
Speaker 1: whether that means they hold her their faith or change

1188
00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 1: your faith or change the church or church tradition. I

1189
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: don't know about you. I have lots of friends who

1190
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: have been looking at Orthodoxy and looking at the Catholicism

1191
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 1: for the first time, or you know, and so it's like, Okay,

1192
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:13,439
Speaker 1: I'm evangelical, so like I still go to an evangelical church.

1193
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,960
Speaker 1: I'm I'm happy about it. And but for others that's

1194
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: not their negotiation. But that doesn't mean that they're gonna leave.

1195
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: Faith might be a different kind of faith expression, different

1196
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:26,200
Speaker 1: kind of liturgy. So like all of that though, I

1197
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 1: think is influenced who the parent thing, Because let's say,

1198
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,839
Speaker 1: for example, you had an addict parent who is really

1199
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: kind of chaotic and unpredictable, and then you go to

1200
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,920
Speaker 1: a charismatic church where things are kind of chaotic and unpredictable.

1201
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: That's gonna be a hard thing to navigate as an adult.

1202
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 1: It's gonna be hard to separate those feelings. And it

1203
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: makes sense to me. I have actually lots of friends

1204
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: who have addict parents who find a lot of solid

1205
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: and more liturgical confessional not even just Catholic, but even

1206
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 1: even let's say like high liturgy, like Lutheran, or like

1207
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 1: Presbyterianism or something like just more conservative expressions because the

1208
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: the solid consistency feels like safety when they grew up

1209
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 1: in a world that was chaotic and vice versa for

1210
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: people who grew up a very strict, very let's say,

1211
00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 1: unfeeling parents. Charismatic, you know, more like I don't know,

1212
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: I love like charismatic worship. I'm all about give it

1213
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: to me like bethelho song, like like elevation, like I'm

1214
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: here for it. And so much of it was a

1215
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:30,760
Speaker 1: response to my childhood that was kind of more rigid

1216
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,240
Speaker 1: and unfeeling, and so the warmth and emotion like it

1217
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 1: was like a safe thinge right, it's so helpful. I

1218
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: have such a hard time with emotion and so a

1219
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: setting that allows me to access that and then bring

1220
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: it to God. Oh, it's like a bomb. And I

1221
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 1: think we can be so cynical over expressions of the church,

1222
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:53,360
Speaker 1: whether we want to criticize worship music or criticize liturgical

1223
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: confessional styles of church, like what's this? What's this? And

1224
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, hold on, I wonder sometimes I just wonder,

1225
00:57:58,280 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: like tell me about your parents first before I hear

1226
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 1: your opinion on this, because of like I just need

1227
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: to hear it, because it's going to influence what feels

1228
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: like home and what feels like refreshment and renewal, and

1229
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:13,439
Speaker 1: what feels like bondage. And the more we can bring

1230
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: that to the surface and deal with it directly instead

1231
00:58:16,120 --> 00:58:20,240
Speaker 1: of letting it just marinate in our subconscious controlling all

1232
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 1: of our deconstruction and doubts and faith decisions, and then

1233
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: how we moralize and attack other people, and we can

1234
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: kind of zoom out and be like, that might be

1235
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: what that person needs at least through this season. Right

1236
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 1: then it gives us more graciousness, Yes it.

1237
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:38,640
Speaker 2: Does, and it obviously has a significant impact on the

1238
00:58:38,680 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 2: way that we view and see God, the way we

1239
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 2: view and see the world around us. That's this entire

1240
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 2: idea of attachment, and so that's why there is significance

1241
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 2: within the family. There's significance in the way that parents

1242
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 2: respond to, they treat, they see all of the different

1243
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 2: things to their children. Because at the end of the day,

1244
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: we need parents, we need attachment caregivers, We need people

1245
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 2: in our lives that are gonna help us create more

1246
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:06,200
Speaker 2: purity in the water well.

1247
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 1: And just a practical stagway there. I think it helps

1248
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 1: to get humans in your life that supply the emotional

1249
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 1: needs you feel like God is lacking for you and

1250
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: what I mean, and I think that's why God gave

1251
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,960
Speaker 1: us the church is like God's far away, Like, tell

1252
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 1: me about the older men in your life that are

1253
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: close to you, or the older women in your life

1254
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 1: that nurture you. God doesn't hear my prayers. Do who

1255
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: do you feel in your life? Hears you? And then

1256
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: so often not a lot or there's a piece of

1257
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: me that I can't share with the people I talk to.

1258
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 1: And it turns out when you feel seen by the

1259
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 1: older men or women in your life, by your spouse,

1260
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 1: it's like those not start to untangle and then you realize, Oh,

1261
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,240
Speaker 1: part of my gripe actually wasn't with God. It was

1262
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 1: just there was an emotional need I genuinely had that

1263
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 1: was genuinely going on met And God often reaches out

1264
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: and soothes us through the people in our life and

1265
01:00:06,280 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: the touch of God. So much of us crave is

1266
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: in the physical hands and feet of the people. And

1267
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 1: I'm not just talking about churches in the church service,

1268
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: because some people have I don't know. It's a hard

1269
01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: relationship with the actual Sunday gathering with this or that,

1270
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 1: like the church backgrounds. Like I'm saying, I'm talking about

1271
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 1: you know Bert in your small group. That's like the

1272
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: old guy that you know you could ask to go

1273
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: fishing and he'd probably go because he has the time.

1274
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 1: You're the busy one. Like, are you open to being

1275
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 1: a little bit more vulnerable with that older guy that

1276
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: he's gentle, wouldn't hurt a fly? Like you know that

1277
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: he's safe, Like we have trust issues with church. But

1278
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 1: then I'm like, okay, but tell me about your trust

1279
01:00:41,120 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 1: issues with Bert, you know, like let's zero in on

1280
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 1: the individuals for me. Like in my deconstruction story, I

1281
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,160
Speaker 1: was like, right at the beginning of my counseling program,

1282
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: I was really struggling with faith in God and church

1283
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: and just having all the I mean, I could go

1284
01:00:57,960 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: into the long story, but the thing that soothed me

1285
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 1: was I went to a Bible study that met at

1286
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 1: like six fifteen in the morning, and it was all

1287
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: dudes over seventy at this really calvinistic church. That it

1288
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,080
Speaker 1: was like the most opposite thing because I kind of

1289
01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:16,960
Speaker 1: grew up in charismatic e church, right, So I went

1290
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 1: to like the most like the polar opposite of it,

1291
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:21,520
Speaker 1: which it was like the most like you know, kind

1292
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:25,000
Speaker 1: of more conservative kind of Baptisty like like Calvisty church whatever.

1293
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:26,760
Speaker 1: And I honestly just wanted to go to argue. I

1294
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 1: just felt I was mad and I wanted to go

1295
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 1: debate and just like honestly just let off some steam.

1296
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:33,080
Speaker 1: So I would to this like these poor old men,

1297
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 1: these like seventy year olds, like six of them, they've

1298
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: probably been at that Boble Slay for twenty years. It's

1299
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: probably like their their friend group that they enjoy Tuesday mornings.

1300
01:01:39,840 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 1: And here I am, young guys just coming to ruining everything.

1301
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 1: And I just like sat down and I'd argue and

1302
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:48,040
Speaker 1: then try to debate them. And I was just they

1303
01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 1: were so gentle and kind and would and would meet

1304
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:54,640
Speaker 1: me and the intellectual struggles that I have, but didn't

1305
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: feel the pressure to try to convince me just and

1306
01:01:57,680 --> 01:01:59,120
Speaker 1: then they just had the wisdom that I was like,

1307
01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 1: what's going on in life, young guy? Tell me about

1308
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: what's going on with your parents, tell me what's going

1309
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 1: on in your marriage, tell me what's going on on

1310
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: in your career. And they just loved me, and I

1311
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:14,080
Speaker 1: went for a year, and I'm so thankful to God

1312
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: that I'm not Calvinist, because that would have been a

1313
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:17,480
Speaker 1: bummer if I went to this place and then they

1314
01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 1: turned me into a Calvinist. I didn't. Okay, that's good,

1315
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:21,840
Speaker 1: I'm just joking. I'm just being funny. No, but they

1316
01:02:22,520 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 1: didn't convince me of all the right things to believe,

1317
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 1: but they convinced me something actually more important underneath, which

1318
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:31,480
Speaker 1: was like, I can receive and enjoy love through the

1319
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: arms of these men in the church, and so much

1320
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 1: of my anger that I felt towards God and the

1321
01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:41,960
Speaker 1: Church as an organization was soothed and healed just through

1322
01:02:42,000 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: the actual physical hands of the real human beings that

1323
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: was the Church in my life. Of these like four

1324
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: or five old men that didn't have all the answers

1325
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 1: and didn't have all the theological like this or that

1326
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,600
Speaker 1: to solve on my questions, but did have love, and

1327
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: we're willing just to take a really red how you know,

1328
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 1: you know hot, you like an anger, you know, young guy,

1329
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 1: and just be patient with him. Their patience and kindness

1330
01:03:10,440 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 1: just won me over. And we had plenty of theological

1331
01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 1: talks and we didn't end up agreeing on any of that.

1332
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: But man, I just wouldn't be here without those men.

1333
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 1: That's what I needed in my deconstruction was.

1334
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 2: Just that love did show up and show you that

1335
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,200
Speaker 2: amount of love. I remember hearing a pastor one share

1336
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:33,760
Speaker 2: a story of a man who came down from his

1337
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 2: congregation one day after church and he was really wrestling

1338
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 2: with this idea because his wife was going through deconstruction

1339
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 2: and he was pretty embarrassed by it. And the pastor

1340
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 2: began to ask him the question, you know, we'll tell

1341
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 2: me about your home life, telling me about what's going on.

1342
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:52,080
Speaker 2: And this man, this husband, was mentioning that maybe he

1343
01:03:52,160 --> 01:03:53,440
Speaker 2: wasn't always the best example.

1344
01:03:53,480 --> 01:03:54,040
Speaker 1: Within the home.

1345
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 2: There was a lot of anger, there were a lot

1346
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,960
Speaker 2: of fights, there were a lot of disagreements, and so

1347
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:03,439
Speaker 2: he did struggle. But this bride, she was completely kind

1348
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 2: of beginning to question everything about faith because of the

1349
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 2: way that the home was drifting. And so he came

1350
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:12,960
Speaker 2: to this pastor with tears in his eyes, and the

1351
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 2: pastor was just referencing this idea and asking more and

1352
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 2: more questions, and all of a sudden, he kind of

1353
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 2: hit this husband, like right between the eyes when he

1354
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 2: was referencing this idea that he took it to God

1355
01:04:25,080 --> 01:04:27,880
Speaker 2: and he was frustrated. But then his wife came in

1356
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 2: the house one night and she looked at her husband

1357
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 2: and they started to disagree about something again. The husband

1358
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:34,919
Speaker 2: kind of sarcastically said, so, what's it going to take.

1359
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 2: Jesus is going to have to come back now for

1360
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 2: you to believe in God again, Like he's gonna have

1361
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 2: to show up right in front of you physically. And

1362
01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 2: she looked at him and goes, I think so. Then

1363
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 2: the light bulb went off as he's telling this story

1364
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:56,120
Speaker 2: to the pastor you know, Jesus may not show up

1365
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 2: in my home.

1366
01:04:57,240 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 1: Today, but he sent me. Yeah, go back to that

1367
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 1: front door.

1368
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 2: We all need people in our lives that will be

1369
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 2: a reflection of Jesus. And I think to go back

1370
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 2: to this idea of estrangement and the family dynamic and

1371
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 2: parent child relationship. Louis Giglier wrote a book and he

1372
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 2: once said this that God is not the reflection of

1373
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 2: your earthly father. He is the perfection of your earthly father.

1374
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 2: And if we can get a right view of God,

1375
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 2: it has the power to change everything. I want to

1376
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 2: ask you, because you have such a wealth of wisdom.

1377
01:05:29,360 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 2: We talked about ev Worthington and we talked about forgiveness,

1378
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:34,840
Speaker 2: and I think that's a big step in this healing journey.

1379
01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 2: An estrangement is like, what does forgiveness actually mean. Does

1380
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 2: it mean just like letting go of it? Does it

1381
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 2: mean just you know, moving on from it and acting

1382
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:46,920
Speaker 2: like it didn't happen, letting them off the hook. Or

1383
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 2: does it mean something else? Does it mean something deeper?

1384
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:52,920
Speaker 2: You and I both know that forgiveness takes one. Reconciliation

1385
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 2: repair may take two, but forgiveness is different because we

1386
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 2: can forgive only when we have the understanding too that

1387
01:05:59,080 --> 01:06:03,080
Speaker 2: we two have been forgiven. And so Matthias speak to

1388
01:06:03,120 --> 01:06:07,760
Speaker 2: this idea of forgiveness and maybe the differentiation between forgiveness

1389
01:06:08,200 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 2: and even trust.

1390
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's it. I mean you just said it's reconciliation.

1391
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 1: There needs to be trust. I mean I think about God,

1392
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:18,080
Speaker 1: like God forgive everyone right Romans five. Does he give

1393
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 1: relationship to everyone? No, reaccess relationship through faith? What's faith?

1394
01:06:25,560 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 1: It's trust, you know, it's trust, repentance like it's a

1395
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 1: but relationship is available through Jesus to all, not through

1396
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,480
Speaker 1: our own effort, through the effort on the cross. But

1397
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 1: there needs to be a response of faith and trust.

1398
01:06:41,560 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 1: And I think that that's what Jesus taught. I mean,

1399
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 1: even in the verses. I hear this all the time.

1400
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:49,680
Speaker 1: I mean, and even in estrangement dot Com, like I'll

1401
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 1: be like, well I talked to kids. I was like, well,

1402
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 1: my parents said, Jesus said forgive seventy times seven. So

1403
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 1: even though it's my fifth time and rehabit, even though

1404
01:06:58,320 --> 01:06:59,840
Speaker 1: I've asked for money over and over again and I

1405
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 1: gambled it away, even though I've cheated on your mom

1406
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,840
Speaker 1: five times, you need to forgive me because didn't Jesus

1407
01:07:05,840 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 1: say seventy times seven? And it's almost like kind of

1408
01:07:08,280 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 1: held over their head, like well you have to let

1409
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:13,200
Speaker 1: me in. I'm like, well, hold on, do you remember

1410
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:16,320
Speaker 1: what Jesus said, like right after that, like Matthew eighteen right,

1411
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,400
Speaker 1: And there's a story that Jesus tells a man who

1412
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 1: owe a big debt and then he went to the

1413
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:24,680
Speaker 1: king and then the king forgave him his debt. And

1414
01:07:24,720 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 1: then that man goes and then he grabs his neighbor

1415
01:07:27,640 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 1: and he's like, hey, pay me what you owe me.

1416
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 1: And then the king is like, hey, guy, didn't I

1417
01:07:32,040 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 1: just forgive your big debt? And then you're going and

1418
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 1: grabbing him and you know, in demanding payment, what are

1419
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 1: you doing? And then you know what happens next the king.

1420
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:46,240
Speaker 1: Does the king forgive the servant and say, ah, yeah,

1421
01:07:46,240 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 1: you're right, all right, Well, just try better next time.

1422
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:51,520
Speaker 1: But no, it actually says in the text that he

1423
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 1: delivered him over to the torturers until he paid back.

1424
01:07:56,680 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 1: What do he owe the king? Isn't that weird that

1425
01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 1: Jesus tells a story of a king who doesn't forgive

1426
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:08,720
Speaker 1: this second time? Does that ever hate you? It's weird? Right?

1427
01:08:09,560 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 1: Seventy times seven, here's a story of a king who

1428
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 1: forgives the first time and then holds someone accountable the

1429
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 1: second time and the same breath. So we have to

1430
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 1: be careful before we actually use that as some sort

1431
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:29,840
Speaker 1: of like leverage into infinite trust. Paul says, love always trusts. Yeah,

1432
01:08:29,880 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 1: but have you read Timothy where he talks about the

1433
01:08:32,280 --> 01:08:34,360
Speaker 1: copper maker who betrays him and he says, don't even

1434
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:36,600
Speaker 1: associate with that man. He's not done well by us.

1435
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:38,960
Speaker 1: We don't talk to him. And then two Timothy three,

1436
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 1: where talks about here's all the things like, Hey, people

1437
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,840
Speaker 1: who are like adulterous and sinful. Don't even eat with

1438
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:46,920
Speaker 1: people like that, people who are committed to their sin.

1439
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:49,280
Speaker 1: There is a theme throughout all scriptured, Old and New

1440
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 1: Testament when you give sin position in your life, when

1441
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 1: you are worshiping idols, God doesn't want communion with people

1442
01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 1: who worship idols. If there's idols in your life, that's

1443
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,880
Speaker 1: a boundary between you and God. And God is not

1444
01:09:02,920 --> 01:09:04,360
Speaker 1: just going to like smooth past that. And you know,

1445
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 1: you know I forgive you. That's fine. He sympathizes with

1446
01:09:08,120 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: our weaknesses, you know, He's he's a good father who

1447
01:09:12,200 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 1: can see that we're stumbling and draws near us. And

1448
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:22,960
Speaker 1: when we willfully worship idols in our life hold sin unrepentant.

1449
01:09:23,240 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 1: It's a boundary. It's a limitation and relationship. And so

1450
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 1: if we're going to imitate Christ, I just don't see

1451
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:34,240
Speaker 1: a way around it. I use the story sometimes when

1452
01:09:34,280 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 1: I preach or or teaches out of the Bible on

1453
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 1: this topic, Like I'm because it's so much of what

1454
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:41,520
Speaker 1: I do as a therapist as secular. But when I

1455
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 1: preach on it, I talk about David and King Saul

1456
01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 1: King Saul her old spirit David. What David do? He

1457
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:51,280
Speaker 1: runs to Samuel wise older prophet is going to help

1458
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:54,120
Speaker 1: him figure out what to do. And then King Saul.

1459
01:09:54,880 --> 01:09:57,400
Speaker 1: The story is interesting. He comes and then pursues he

1460
01:09:57,439 --> 01:09:59,639
Speaker 1: sends men after Saul, and and all these men actually

1461
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:01,639
Speaker 1: have these fedic experiences where they fall on the ground

1462
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:03,760
Speaker 1: and start worshiping and prophetesying, which is a funny. It's

1463
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 1: a weird story, you know. And then Saw himself actually

1464
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:07,760
Speaker 1: comes and he falls on his face and it says

1465
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: he stripped naked and started prophesying on the ground in

1466
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:14,519
Speaker 1: front of Samuel. Now you think, okay, wow, we have

1467
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 1: like a come to Jesus moment or you know, yeah,

1468
01:10:18,000 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 1: come to y'ahwait moment. It is Jesus. But you know,

1469
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: like we have a repentance. So what reconcile? They go home? Right,

1470
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 1: David goes back to the palace. Nope, next verse it

1471
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:34,880
Speaker 1: says David flees, Does Samuel stop him? Nope? Goes in.

1472
01:10:35,160 --> 01:10:36,960
Speaker 1: And then what does he do? Does he just like

1473
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 1: go off and do his own thing. He gathers the

1474
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 1: mighty men so he has community around him. He's not

1475
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:43,320
Speaker 1: waiting to do this all this stuff on his own,

1476
01:10:43,680 --> 01:10:46,720
Speaker 1: He's estrange from Saul for ten years. He runs up

1477
01:10:46,880 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 1: over a decade, runs through the wilderness, and on several

1478
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 1: occasions Saws running after him, trying to get him. And

1479
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:55,639
Speaker 1: there's many opportunities for David to get revenge on Saul.

1480
01:10:56,720 --> 01:11:02,680
Speaker 1: David doesn't. David honors Saw. But honor doesn't look like

1481
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:05,360
Speaker 1: going back to the palace. Honor doesn't look like making

1482
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 1: yourself open to being, you know, spirit again. Honor in

1483
01:11:11,280 --> 01:11:14,280
Speaker 1: David's case looks like a confrontation. And what he says

1484
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:16,880
Speaker 1: to Saul and he's like, why are you pursuing me?

1485
01:11:16,920 --> 01:11:19,679
Speaker 1: I haven't done anything against you. And then he says,

1486
01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:23,240
Speaker 1: if God finds fault in me, may God's judgment come

1487
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 1: against me. And if God finds fault in you, make

1488
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:32,599
Speaker 1: God's judgment come against you. Complete submission to God and

1489
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 1: willing to tell the truth. And that's to his king,

1490
01:11:37,080 --> 01:11:40,719
Speaker 1: Like think about like honoring your parents, honoring your elder.

1491
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 1: Is there is there anything more dramatic than honoring your

1492
01:11:44,160 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 1: father in law, parent, elder and king. So like if

1493
01:11:47,320 --> 01:11:51,000
Speaker 1: that's righteous in God regards that as righteous. A righteous

1494
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 1: gesture of David towards Samuel was not pride presumption, getting revenge,

1495
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:04,479
Speaker 1: vindicating himself what was confronting and spoke the truth, the

1496
01:12:04,520 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 1: objective truth. I've not wronged you. You're doing wrong by me.

1497
01:12:08,479 --> 01:12:10,720
Speaker 1: If I'm wrong, I'm willing to receive God's judgment, are you?

1498
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 1: And then you have Saul repent Actually, time and time again,

1499
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:19,599
Speaker 1: it's not very genuine repentance when you actually read it.

1500
01:12:19,600 --> 01:12:21,760
Speaker 1: It's pretty flowery and kind of a motive and doesn't

1501
01:12:21,800 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 1: really have any substance. It doesn't lead to action, it

1502
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 1: doesn't lead to the kind of repentance that that creates

1503
01:12:26,439 --> 01:12:29,680
Speaker 1: changed behavior. So David and his wisdom does not go

1504
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:39,240
Speaker 1: back home. He continues to live remote, estranged, and then Saul,

1505
01:12:39,479 --> 01:12:42,400
Speaker 1: sure enough, gets worked up in his anger continues again,

1506
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:43,960
Speaker 1: I mean, we could talk about Jonathan, we could talk

1507
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:45,720
Speaker 1: about there's all sorts of richness in that story. But

1508
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:48,280
Speaker 1: and then right after that, when you continue to read

1509
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 1: through the story, you see the same story, but as

1510
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:55,639
Speaker 1: David and absolom this time, and David has a blunder,

1511
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:59,960
Speaker 1: like beyond a blunder, a complete negligence of his duty

1512
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:02,120
Speaker 1: he as a father and a king, where his daughter

1513
01:13:02,160 --> 01:13:08,200
Speaker 1: in law gets assaulted by his son and he doesn't intervene.

1514
01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:11,800
Speaker 1: He doesn't discipline his son, he doesn't get justice for

1515
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 1: his daughter when his son assaults his daughter. So Absolom

1516
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:19,559
Speaker 1: takes justice into his own hands because David didn't. And

1517
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 1: then David responds harshly and then exiles his son, and

1518
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:27,960
Speaker 1: his son lives away Absolom for I think it's three

1519
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:30,679
Speaker 1: years in a neighboring city. And then it was only

1520
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:33,240
Speaker 1: by the persuasion of the people close to David that

1521
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:35,599
Speaker 1: no inviting him back home. And then David's like, y okay,

1522
01:13:35,640 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 1: bring him home, but he can stay over there, stay

1523
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:40,800
Speaker 1: on the line, and stay over there. And then absolomly's

1524
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:42,839
Speaker 1: just like craving just to talk to David. He actually

1525
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:45,599
Speaker 1: sets the lot beside him on fire just to get

1526
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:50,040
Speaker 1: some attention, starts setting fires just to get attention. And

1527
01:13:50,080 --> 01:13:52,200
Speaker 1: then he's like all right and comes to the conversation

1528
01:13:52,240 --> 01:13:53,960
Speaker 1: and David just kisses him on the forehead, and then

1529
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,960
Speaker 1: they don't speak, complete avoidance, trying to sweep it under

1530
01:13:57,960 --> 01:14:00,400
Speaker 1: the rug and just being like, can this just be

1531
01:14:00,439 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 1: water under the bridge, Let's just move along, and Absolin

1532
01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:07,759
Speaker 1: boils and resentment pulls a coup just like totally subverts

1533
01:14:07,800 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 1: the whole kingdom, and this is what David does. It's

1534
01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:12,759
Speaker 1: really interesting. So at the end of the story, David's

1535
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:17,719
Speaker 1: walking outside of the of the city, walks up the mountain,

1536
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:20,000
Speaker 1: the same mountain that later Jesus would be in the

1537
01:14:20,000 --> 01:14:22,680
Speaker 1: Gathsemite and look up at the same mountain. Pretty cool,

1538
01:14:22,760 --> 01:14:25,080
Speaker 1: there's cool imagery. They walk through the same gate along

1539
01:14:25,120 --> 01:14:28,040
Speaker 1: the same path at the same mountain that Jesus actually

1540
01:14:28,080 --> 01:14:32,400
Speaker 1: walks along the path of his grandfather's mistakes and sends

1541
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,720
Speaker 1: as he goes to the garden and then decides if

1542
01:14:35,720 --> 01:14:37,880
Speaker 1: he's going to be obedient or not. Anyway, that's a

1543
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 1: whole another sermon. But so David's walking along and Absolince

1544
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:48,760
Speaker 1: sieged the temple. He's creating havoc, and then David sends

1545
01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:51,200
Speaker 1: the Ark of the Covenant back. Now the arc of

1546
01:14:51,240 --> 01:14:52,680
Speaker 1: the Covenant, I mean, the large part was kind of

1547
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:54,360
Speaker 1: like this twsman. It's like, well, hey, that means God's

1548
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:56,080
Speaker 1: on your side. And then so the people are like,

1549
01:14:56,120 --> 01:14:57,639
Speaker 1: hold on, why do you want to send it back?

1550
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 1: And then David just says, if God wants me back

1551
01:15:01,479 --> 01:15:04,280
Speaker 1: him in the palace, he'll put me there. If not,

1552
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 1: who am I this kingship isn't mine. This eldership I

1553
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 1: have doesn't belong to me, This position I have doesn't

1554
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 1: belong to me. Everything I have comes from him. I

1555
01:15:15,760 --> 01:15:19,840
Speaker 1: hand back over to Cod completely. And then he goes.

1556
01:15:19,840 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 1: And there's a guy that comes and starts like kicking

1557
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:24,479
Speaker 1: and screaming and insulting David, kicking dust in his hair

1558
01:15:25,000 --> 01:15:27,439
Speaker 1: and all the guards like King David, he wants to

1559
01:15:27,720 --> 01:15:30,760
Speaker 1: kill this guy like he's insulting the king, like you know,

1560
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:33,760
Speaker 1: and then he says no, like even if there's a

1561
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:35,600
Speaker 1: piece of what he's saying that's true, I would not

1562
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:39,040
Speaker 1: refuse the lord's rebuke. Perhaps God sent him to rebuke me.

1563
01:15:40,920 --> 01:15:43,720
Speaker 1: And the thing what I love about David is that

1564
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:47,920
Speaker 1: he's not the perfect parent, far from it. And at

1565
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:51,600
Speaker 1: the end he realized and he repented. That's really the

1566
01:15:51,680 --> 01:15:55,120
Speaker 1: difference between him and Saul. It's not like we have

1567
01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 1: a good parent and a bad parent good dad, bad dad.

1568
01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:02,520
Speaker 1: We have two dads who are sinful and made huge blunders,

1569
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 1: sinful choices in one repented and David just said, I

1570
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:15,599
Speaker 1: received this rebuke, and then the entire war. The only

1571
01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:17,000
Speaker 1: thing he keeps saying over and over is just bring

1572
01:16:17,000 --> 01:16:19,679
Speaker 1: Absolom to me don't get him. I don't want my revenge.

1573
01:16:19,720 --> 01:16:21,599
Speaker 1: I don't want justice. I don't want things to be vindicated.

1574
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:24,680
Speaker 1: I don't want Just bring my son to me. Just

1575
01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:29,200
Speaker 1: bring the Absolum, bring me Absalom, and I just think

1576
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:34,679
Speaker 1: about I could just imagine I've avoided this for so long, Absolum.

1577
01:16:34,720 --> 01:16:37,120
Speaker 1: I should have talked to you. I should have. I

1578
01:16:37,120 --> 01:16:39,000
Speaker 1: should I wish I could have talked to you. And

1579
01:16:39,040 --> 01:16:42,720
Speaker 1: now he can't because he avoided it. Because he avoided it,

1580
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:46,400
Speaker 1: and then he doesn't get to ever reconnect with the sun,

1581
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:51,200
Speaker 1: and he mourns him. But at the end, his heart

1582
01:16:51,360 --> 01:16:54,920
Speaker 1: realized this isn't just about protecting the family. This isn't

1583
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:57,880
Speaker 1: just about reputation. This isn't just about what's right and

1584
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:01,720
Speaker 1: me getting respect. This isn't about me being right and

1585
01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:03,720
Speaker 1: me not knowing. And well, I mean, I'm the king

1586
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,920
Speaker 1: after all. It's like, just bring me my boy. I'll

1587
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:10,559
Speaker 1: receive whatever rebuke the Lord gives. And I talked to

1588
01:17:11,520 --> 01:17:15,880
Speaker 1: the parents and my clinical practice, who are Christians, and

1589
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 1: I'm like, is that your heart? Have you truly laid

1590
01:17:22,400 --> 01:17:25,720
Speaker 1: all of it down? You have all your intentions and

1591
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:27,680
Speaker 1: all your sacrifices in all the ways you feel like

1592
01:17:27,720 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 1: you're right. I'm not going to dispute any of it.

1593
01:17:29,520 --> 01:17:33,519
Speaker 1: I don't know. But what I seen, David is a

1594
01:17:33,560 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 1: heart that says, even if there's a shred of truth

1595
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:40,080
Speaker 1: in this rebuke, I'll take it. And then a heart

1596
01:17:40,120 --> 01:17:43,000
Speaker 1: that above all else says, just bring me my boy,

1597
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:50,040
Speaker 1: And a heart that repents of the avoidance, skimming past it,

1598
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:52,559
Speaker 1: trying not to talk about it, trying to just let

1599
01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:56,400
Speaker 1: water be under the bridge, when you should have dealt directly.

1600
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 1: I should have repented the kids, the kids confronting on

1601
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:04,960
Speaker 1: the kids too. Don't let her resentment boil up and

1602
01:18:04,960 --> 01:18:08,479
Speaker 1: boil up and then turn into revenge. And I mean,

1603
01:18:08,520 --> 01:18:11,439
Speaker 1: you might not try to literally come for your parents' life,

1604
01:18:11,439 --> 01:18:13,200
Speaker 1: but you come for their reputation, and you come for

1605
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:15,040
Speaker 1: their image, and you come with a narrative, and you

1606
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:19,519
Speaker 1: come with words that are daggers, even if not to

1607
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:21,840
Speaker 1: them in your own heart, and to your friends, and

1608
01:18:21,880 --> 01:18:25,759
Speaker 1: how you speak about them to others that you attack.

1609
01:18:26,439 --> 01:18:29,639
Speaker 1: You go on the attack with your words even fits

1610
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:33,360
Speaker 1: in your own heart. What does it look like to

1611
01:18:33,400 --> 01:18:37,479
Speaker 1: be King David in reference to Saul, which is it's

1612
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:40,120
Speaker 1: not my job to attack you, but it is God's

1613
01:18:40,479 --> 01:18:43,080
Speaker 1: in the sense of, like God will get justice, my

1614
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,160
Speaker 1: job is to take this anger and to give it

1615
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:49,040
Speaker 1: to him who will vindicate me. That's the promise of

1616
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:52,479
Speaker 1: the Cross, is that that sin will be dealt with

1617
01:18:52,560 --> 01:18:55,599
Speaker 1: either in the sense that Jesus forgives it when they

1618
01:18:55,640 --> 01:18:58,759
Speaker 1: come under when they're adopted to the family of Christ

1619
01:18:58,760 --> 01:19:01,200
Speaker 1: and it's washed away through blood Jesus, or it's held

1620
01:19:01,439 --> 01:19:06,720
Speaker 1: to account on judgment Day. All sin is paid for,

1621
01:19:07,160 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 1: and anyone who comes to the cross experience is the

1622
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,880
Speaker 1: healing that was purchased on the cross, because if Jesus

1623
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:14,559
Speaker 1: is going to take accountability for the sin, he takes

1624
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:18,479
Speaker 1: accountability for the healing. And when we submit our wounds

1625
01:19:18,479 --> 01:19:22,719
Speaker 1: to him. He is the finisher of our faith, the steward,

1626
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:26,960
Speaker 1: the shepherd who works out our salvation and all it's

1627
01:19:26,960 --> 01:19:28,120
Speaker 1: fear and all it's trembling.

1628
01:19:30,320 --> 01:19:32,559
Speaker 2: Guys, man, you sure you're a psychologists and in the

1629
01:19:32,560 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 2: counseling space because that I was preaching right there.

1630
01:19:36,280 --> 01:19:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was my preacher came out.

1631
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:43,280
Speaker 2: Sorry, brother, you are anointed truly. Just listening to you

1632
01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:48,639
Speaker 2: delve into that story, all the examples, and just hearing

1633
01:19:48,680 --> 01:19:51,719
Speaker 2: the way that God is using you in the lives

1634
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:55,320
Speaker 2: of countless people and in the lives of countless families,

1635
01:19:56,040 --> 01:20:00,799
Speaker 2: Like you mentioned that idea of man, I'll take whatever

1636
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:03,960
Speaker 2: rebuke is necessary, Like I just think of the person

1637
01:20:04,000 --> 01:20:08,240
Speaker 2: of Jesus who didn't have to take any of it.

1638
01:20:08,360 --> 01:20:10,160
Speaker 2: At the end of the day, even when we go

1639
01:20:10,240 --> 01:20:13,160
Speaker 2: to him and we're angry and we're frustrated and we

1640
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:15,360
Speaker 2: raise a fist to Heaven because it's like, why are

1641
01:20:15,360 --> 01:20:19,439
Speaker 2: you allowing this to happen, he receives it, but he says,

1642
01:20:19,600 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 2: just give me my son, Just give me my daughter,

1643
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:25,240
Speaker 2: Just present them to me. Like that's the person that's

1644
01:20:25,280 --> 01:20:27,479
Speaker 2: the love of Jesus, And could we just have that

1645
01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:31,439
Speaker 2: same love in our own families with our own children,

1646
01:20:31,479 --> 01:20:34,800
Speaker 2: taking responsibility or rebuke, whatever it is, but just saying,

1647
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:39,599
Speaker 2: just present my child, Just give that child back to me. Man,

1648
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:43,880
Speaker 2: I want to close this way because I love. Really

1649
01:20:43,920 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 2: the motto behind estrangement dot com. Your goal isn't to

1650
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:52,200
Speaker 2: fix people. It's not to just like repair things, because

1651
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:54,799
Speaker 2: sometimes restoration.

1652
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:57,639
Speaker 1: Some dames should not reconcile with King Saul, Right, that's right.

1653
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:02,880
Speaker 2: Sometimes like that isn't supposed to happen. Sometimes not even

1654
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 2: available or possible that's because it takes two, that's right.

1655
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:11,720
Speaker 2: But you came up with this theme of peace, peace.

1656
01:21:11,479 --> 01:21:14,919
Speaker 1: With what's possible, with what's possible, Peace with what's possible.

1657
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:17,720
Speaker 2: And I want you to close out just to an

1658
01:21:17,720 --> 01:21:20,439
Speaker 2: audience member, whether it's a parent, whether it's a child,

1659
01:21:20,479 --> 01:21:22,920
Speaker 2: but there's a strangement involved, whether it's a sibling, I

1660
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:25,240
Speaker 2: don't know. There's a lot of hurt in a relationship

1661
01:21:25,240 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 2: and it's been removed maybe from their life. I'd love

1662
01:21:29,040 --> 01:21:32,040
Speaker 2: to you to just to give one more word of hope, encouragement,

1663
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:35,200
Speaker 2: and motivation to that person out there today that might

1664
01:21:35,320 --> 01:21:38,040
Speaker 2: give them peace with what's possible.

1665
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:44,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that if we place our peace on our desired

1666
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:46,800
Speaker 1: hope being fulfilled in the sense of like our kids

1667
01:21:46,800 --> 01:21:48,160
Speaker 1: going to come back, they're going to talk to us,

1668
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:50,760
Speaker 1: our relationship is going to get repaired. If our peace

1669
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:54,200
Speaker 1: is determined on that, then I think that we're placing

1670
01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:56,840
Speaker 1: our hope and earthly things. And I think the God's

1671
01:21:56,840 --> 01:21:58,519
Speaker 1: asked us to put our treasure in heaven, which is

1672
01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:01,519
Speaker 1: the peace that surpassed, is all understanding, which is grounded

1673
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 1: in Him, his finished work, not ours. I think about

1674
01:22:04,240 --> 01:22:06,800
Speaker 1: the Book of Hebrews Chapter three and four, where it

1675
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:10,920
Speaker 1: says that our rest is in him. It's not in

1676
01:22:10,920 --> 01:22:13,639
Speaker 1: our finished work, it's His finished work on the cross.

1677
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:16,880
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean that we won't experience grief. Like

1678
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:20,360
Speaker 1: I contrast those things like, it's not like we get

1679
01:22:20,400 --> 01:22:22,280
Speaker 1: to this place where we're all just positive and warm

1680
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:23,880
Speaker 1: feelings and I don't even care that my kid won't

1681
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:26,720
Speaker 1: talk to me. I'm just so like trusting and faithful,

1682
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:28,040
Speaker 1: like I don't know, Like I don't know if you've

1683
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:33,240
Speaker 1: met anyone that's gotten there, I haven't. Like there's grief, man,

1684
01:22:33,280 --> 01:22:36,840
Speaker 1: that's different from the exhaustion of the rumination and the

1685
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:41,840
Speaker 1: regret and this self punishment and then the half resentment

1686
01:22:41,920 --> 01:22:46,840
Speaker 1: and anger, half abandonment and just screeching longing of our

1687
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:53,280
Speaker 1: heart that will not trust in the hands that hole

1688
01:22:53,320 --> 01:22:57,800
Speaker 1: of the whole world. And my invitation to parents saying,

1689
01:22:57,840 --> 01:23:02,840
Speaker 1: kids is not just trust God enough and all the

1690
01:23:02,840 --> 01:23:06,840
Speaker 1: bad feelings go away. That's actually trust Gott with what

1691
01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:11,519
Speaker 1: you do not understand. And then start the grief just

1692
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:14,479
Speaker 1: plenty on its own, and we have a comforter, and

1693
01:23:14,600 --> 01:23:18,519
Speaker 1: the grief God draws near those who more He's with us,

1694
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:24,640
Speaker 1: they will be comforted, not those who burn with anxious

1695
01:23:24,920 --> 01:23:31,680
Speaker 1: slash rageful slash avoidant pain. We can give that to him.

1696
01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:33,439
Speaker 1: We don't have to carry that. That's not our birthright.

1697
01:23:35,320 --> 01:23:39,320
Speaker 1: He will be with you when you mourn. Mourning is acceptance.

1698
01:23:40,360 --> 01:23:42,720
Speaker 1: You can't mourn something you don't accept. Acceptance doesn't mean

1699
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 1: like well, I'm never gonna see him again or they'll

1700
01:23:44,280 --> 01:23:48,360
Speaker 1: never change. Acceptance means for right now, this is reality.

1701
01:23:49,120 --> 01:23:55,479
Speaker 1: My definition of grief is responding authentically to reality. The reality.

1702
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:57,519
Speaker 1: I don't know what they're gonna call, if they'll call

1703
01:23:58,200 --> 01:24:00,360
Speaker 1: the reality. I don't know if they're gonna change knowledge

1704
01:24:00,360 --> 01:24:05,439
Speaker 1: what they did. If ever, what do I authentically feel

1705
01:24:05,520 --> 01:24:09,000
Speaker 1: right now? And let me bring that to him? In

1706
01:24:09,040 --> 01:24:12,400
Speaker 1: the Psalms, you see that over and over. That's grief.

1707
01:24:13,920 --> 01:24:19,360
Speaker 1: So comfort comes to those who grieve. That's the encouragement.

1708
01:24:20,960 --> 01:24:23,720
Speaker 2: I I itsk, my friend. You are a gift to

1709
01:24:23,760 --> 01:24:24,200
Speaker 2: the church.

1710
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:25,679
Speaker 1: You're blessing.

1711
01:24:26,479 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 2: I have just been soaking up and I'm going to

1712
01:24:29,520 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 2: go back and listen to this entire conversation again and

1713
01:24:32,840 --> 01:24:37,519
Speaker 2: take pages of notes. Thank you for this new But

1714
01:24:37,720 --> 01:24:41,000
Speaker 2: I hope and pray to God a blossoming friendship, and

1715
01:24:41,040 --> 01:24:43,200
Speaker 2: I look forward to what God has in store my friend.

1716
01:24:43,200 --> 01:24:45,120
Speaker 2: Where can our audience members they'll go to find out

1717
01:24:45,120 --> 01:24:47,720
Speaker 2: more about you. Obviously mentioned estrangement dot com share a

1718
01:24:47,760 --> 01:24:50,040
Speaker 2: little bit more about that, and then just social media

1719
01:24:50,080 --> 01:24:51,439
Speaker 2: outities where can they connect with you?

1720
01:24:51,760 --> 01:24:54,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, so estrangement dot Com is the program that everyroune

1721
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 1: with both parents and adult kids agetting not from the

1722
01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:57,920
Speaker 1: same family. This isn't something that you have to have

1723
01:24:57,920 --> 01:24:59,080
Speaker 1: your kid do with you, or you have to have

1724
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:00,599
Speaker 1: your parents with it. You can just on your own

1725
01:25:00,880 --> 01:25:04,080
Speaker 1: or with your spouse. And it's a monthly thing. But

1726
01:25:04,120 --> 01:25:06,680
Speaker 1: we have like calls where we all get together. I

1727
01:25:06,760 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 1: work with people on those calls and just kind of

1728
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:10,519
Speaker 1: the community where you feel like you're not alone. I

1729
01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 1: just feel like the biggest thing that actually the most

1730
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:15,000
Speaker 1: transformedive part of the whole process is like, gosh, I

1731
01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:16,719
Speaker 1: just feel like I can't talk about this with anybody,

1732
01:25:17,320 --> 01:25:19,559
Speaker 1: Like in the moment I do, everyone starts thinking like

1733
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:21,320
Speaker 1: either you're a bad parent like you abused them, or

1734
01:25:21,320 --> 01:25:23,040
Speaker 1: you're a bad kid, like you abandon your family. So

1735
01:25:23,080 --> 01:25:25,040
Speaker 1: it's just like a weird thing to bring up. So

1736
01:25:25,240 --> 01:25:27,800
Speaker 1: the community is just so transformational, Like that's the piece

1737
01:25:28,520 --> 01:25:30,559
Speaker 1: I think that that comes just in like we're talking

1738
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:32,439
Speaker 1: about the church, like in the felt hands, in the

1739
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:35,000
Speaker 1: eyes of people around you. That's what I wanted to make,

1740
01:25:35,040 --> 01:25:37,080
Speaker 1: you know, beyond just like a book or like a program,

1741
01:25:37,120 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: like in the sense of like just information. I thought

1742
01:25:39,640 --> 01:25:41,720
Speaker 1: the community was the most powerful part of it. So

1743
01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:45,040
Speaker 1: estrangement dot Com that's where you find that community, and

1744
01:25:45,080 --> 01:25:46,760
Speaker 1: then there's a full program. I think around all the

1745
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:48,800
Speaker 1: things I was talking about, like how to word things,

1746
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:51,240
Speaker 1: how to talk, like how to engage those repair conversations,

1747
01:25:51,240 --> 01:25:52,800
Speaker 1: how to write a letter to your kid that won't

1748
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:55,600
Speaker 1: talk to you so that they might engage in a conversation.

1749
01:25:55,680 --> 01:25:58,160
Speaker 1: I gave you templates for that that adult kids wrote,

1750
01:25:58,360 --> 01:26:00,400
Speaker 1: you know, So all that good stuff. But then on

1751
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:04,839
Speaker 1: social media, I'm Matthias J. Barker. I'm on Instagram and TikTok,

1752
01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:07,000
Speaker 1: and I the videos all the time. I'm doing lives

1753
01:26:07,000 --> 01:26:10,160
Speaker 1: pretty often. If you go on YouTube, there's hours of

1754
01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:13,520
Speaker 1: me talking about all this stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1755
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:16,200
Speaker 2: Matthias again, man, thank you for being here, Thanks for

1756
01:26:16,240 --> 01:26:18,439
Speaker 2: making the check out here to Snowy Linchberg in this

1757
01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:21,880
Speaker 2: very moment, I'm so grateful for you, so grateful for

1758
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:24,040
Speaker 2: what God's doing and in through your life. And leadership.

1759
01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:26,800
Speaker 2: This is just the beginning. I believe the best has

1760
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:28,680
Speaker 2: yet to come from my friend. Thank you so much

1761
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:30,679
Speaker 2: for being here. We love and appreciate you so grateful.

1762
01:26:30,720 --> 01:26:34,000
Speaker 2: Thank you, sir and all of our audience. I hope

1763
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:37,360
Speaker 2: and pray that today's conversation has been impactful for you

1764
01:26:37,680 --> 01:26:39,920
Speaker 2: Ed as it has been for me. I know it

1765
01:26:39,960 --> 01:26:43,000
Speaker 2: will be for countless families. We're grateful for your time,

1766
01:26:43,160 --> 01:26:45,760
Speaker 2: grateful for your willingness to do the hard work. One

1767
01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:48,240
Speaker 2: thing I'll say is that when Christ is at the

1768
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:50,960
Speaker 2: center of all of this, it may not always be easy,

1769
01:26:51,479 --> 01:26:54,320
Speaker 2: but it will always be possible because of what He's done.

1770
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:57,479
Speaker 2: You're not defined by your scars, You're defined by his

1771
01:26:58,040 --> 01:27:00,960
Speaker 2: and I hope and pray that you would RECOGNI that

1772
01:27:01,040 --> 01:27:05,559
Speaker 2: you can find peace with what's possible. Thank you so

1773
01:27:05,640 --> 01:27:07,800
Speaker 2: much for joining us, my friend. We love and appreciate you,

1774
01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:09,680
Speaker 2: and we love being a part of your life.

1775
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:10,400
Speaker 1: See you next week.