Speaker 1: On today's episode of Timeless Wisdom.
Speaker 2: The believer in God has to account for the existence
Speaker 2: of one thing, evil and suffering. The atheist has to
Speaker 2: account for the existence of everything else. That's big. It
Speaker 2: has served in my life at moments of doubt to
Speaker 2: be a very, very persuasive argument.
Speaker 1: That's coming up on Timeless Wisdom. But Dennis Prager. Welcome
Speaker 1: to Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.
Speaker 3: Here.
Speaker 1: Thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures courses in classic radio
Speaker 1: programs had to purchase Dennisprager's Rational Bibles. Go to Dennisprager
Speaker 1: dot com.
Speaker 2: And hello everybody, and welcome to the Dennis Prager Show,
Speaker 2: the Ultimate Issues hour every week at this time, I
Speaker 2: talk to you about some great issue of life. And
Speaker 2: I can't believe I have not done this one. I
Speaker 2: looked at the list and I have not done this one.
Speaker 2: It's it's the ultimate of the ultimate issues. It's Ultimate squared,
Speaker 2: and that is God and suffering called the problem of theodicy,
Speaker 2: not theology, theodicy dic why, and that is reconciling God
Speaker 2: with all the suffering, the unjust suffering, the evil and
Speaker 2: the tragedies of this life in this world. If you
Speaker 2: ask people who don't believe in God why they don't
Speaker 2: or why they're yeah, in other words, agnostics or atheist,
Speaker 2: that's often the biggest reason. How can I believe in God?
Speaker 2: All of these terrible things that happen. It seems like
Speaker 2: a random universe. And I understand that. I absolutely understand
Speaker 2: that people look at this world and they can say
Speaker 2: that my argument against that is not specific to the
Speaker 2: issue of suffering. But I do have I have two
Speaker 2: answers in fact. One, right, so you look at the
Speaker 2: suffering and that argues against God? All right, fair enough?
Speaker 2: Now I want you to look at all the non
Speaker 2: suffering and all else that there is and deny that
Speaker 2: that's evidence for God.
Speaker 3: You can't have.
Speaker 2: Evidence in a courtroom that only argues on one side.
Speaker 2: There's something intellectually dishonest about that. I have no problem
Speaker 2: in acknowledging the difficulty of the issue of evil and
Speaker 2: suffering and reconciling those with a belief in the good God. I,
Speaker 2: as a believer in God, I fully acknowledge the difficulties
Speaker 2: raised by the built in injustices of this world. But
Speaker 2: I ask those of you who use that as your
Speaker 2: reason not to believe in God. Say well, but there
Speaker 2: is another side to this argument. Look at all of
Speaker 2: the good, look at all that was created. It's a
Speaker 2: little strange to say X ABC argue against God, but
Speaker 2: the d through z don't argue for God. Now, if
Speaker 2: you want to say, look, there are arguments for and
Speaker 2: there are arguments against I, I fine, I respect that.
Speaker 2: But merely saying oh, can't believe in God. There's there's
Speaker 2: so much injustice and built into this world. I can't
Speaker 2: believe in God that that's not a That's not an
Speaker 2: intellectually sound argument. So that's one argument I said I
Speaker 2: had too. I have another one, and then we'll talk
Speaker 2: about the issue itself. The other argument is taken from
Speaker 2: a rabbi named Milton Steinberg. I always try to quote sources.
Speaker 2: I think stealing ideas is in fact the So often
Speaker 2: people will say to me, oh, Dennis, I'm going to
Speaker 2: steal that idea, and I think, but didn't you know
Speaker 2: it says thou shalt not steal. I had never understood
Speaker 2: why people think stealing an idea is okay. So I
Speaker 2: always try to attribute sources. And there was this rabbi
Speaker 2: and I am paraphrasing him. This is a paraphrase, but
Speaker 2: it's a very very powerful argument, in at least it's
Speaker 2: been powerful in my life. And here goes the believer
Speaker 2: in God has to account for the for one thing,
Speaker 2: the existence of evil and suffering. The atheist has to
Speaker 2: account for the existence of everything else. I would say
Speaker 2: to you that, in a nutshell, that is the most
Speaker 2: persuasive answer that I have for the question of God
Speaker 2: and suffering. It doesn't directly deal with it, but it
Speaker 2: gives you a the larger perspective in which to be
Speaker 2: able to believe in God. I find that to be
Speaker 2: a terrific argument. I'll say it one more time. The
Speaker 2: believer in God has to account for the existence of
Speaker 2: one thing, evil and suffering. The atheist has to account
Speaker 2: for the existence of everything else. That's big, and it
Speaker 2: has served in my life, at moments of doubt to
Speaker 2: be a very very persuasive argument, because I cannot explain
Speaker 2: everything else without God, I cannot. It all came about
Speaker 2: on its own. So evil suggests there is a God,
Speaker 2: but goodness evil suggests there's no God, but goodness doesn't suggest.
Speaker 3: There is a God.
Speaker 2: It's an imbalanced argument, utterly imbalanced.
Speaker 3: Now as it happens.
Speaker 2: There's another argus him in two that those who say,
Speaker 2: well that there's evil and suffering, so there must not
Speaker 2: be a god. Remember, if there is no god, there's
Speaker 2: no there's no issue of evil. The only time evil
Speaker 2: becomes an issue is if you assume that there is
Speaker 2: a god. Then that becomes a question why is there
Speaker 2: so much evil? But i'll leave that one aside. One
Speaker 2: eighth Prager seven seven six.
Speaker 3: You're all cheating by calling before I finish.
Speaker 2: Eh, you don't even know what I said, and you're
Speaker 2: already called. But luck, you have stuff to say. I
Speaker 2: understand that. And you're chomping at the bit or whatever
Speaker 2: that phrase is, chafing at the bit, chomping at the bit,
Speaker 2: chafing at the chump, jumping at the chaff, chiffing at
Speaker 2: the chof And I understand that you want to talk
Speaker 2: to me about it. Now let me let me directly
Speaker 2: talk about the issue itself. Now for a moment. There
Speaker 2: is no question but that there are are aspects of
Speaker 2: suffering and unjust suffering, and that's important because there's also
Speaker 2: just suffering. There are aspects of unjust suffering in this
Speaker 2: world that seem to challenge the governance of a good God.
Speaker 3: They do.
Speaker 2: And I think people like me who believe deeply in
Speaker 2: God have to acknowledge that God acknowledges it. There is
Speaker 2: a book of the Bible that in fact deals with
Speaker 2: this question of God and suffering and unjust suffering. It's
Speaker 2: the Book of Job Job. And at the end of
Speaker 2: the book, after suffering horrifically and unjustly, Job asks God
Speaker 2: God questions. But at the end of the book God
Speaker 2: asked Job questions, and he said, Job, if you know
Speaker 2: so much, tell me where were you when the world
Speaker 2: was started? Who makes sure that a mother bear takes
Speaker 2: care of her cubs. Who is the one that makes
Speaker 2: sure that a mother eagle builds a nest? Who knows
Speaker 2: what happens after the gates of death? In other words, Job,
Speaker 2: and all humans you don't know. You can't understand everything.
Speaker 2: My ways are not your ways. I believe it was
Speaker 2: Isaiah who put it. I want you to know that
Speaker 2: I find deep satisfaction, intellectual satisfaction with those answers. I
Speaker 2: want to make this clear because this is something that
Speaker 2: a lot of believers and I differ.
Speaker 3: With regard to.
Speaker 2: I have not only no problem in saying that I
Speaker 2: cannot answer fully the existence of so much unjust suffering
Speaker 2: with a good God's existence. I not only don't have
Speaker 2: the problem with that, I admit it, and I like
Speaker 2: the fact that there are religions that don't demand explos
Speaker 2: nations for everything. See for example. I do not believe
Speaker 2: when everything happens that somebody says, well, everything is for
Speaker 2: the good. I don't believe that there are things that
Speaker 2: are so horrific that have happened to people there was
Speaker 2: no good that came out of it.
Speaker 3: None.
Speaker 2: You're walking down in Iraqi Street with your family and
Speaker 2: you're all blown apart and or brain damaged for the
Speaker 2: rest of your life, and there's no good that comes
Speaker 2: out of that. It's sheer, pure evil. Now I blame
Speaker 2: evil on people, not on God. But I'm just explaining
Speaker 2: that I don't buy the argument, well, we really don't
Speaker 2: have evil because in the final analysis, everything is for
Speaker 2: the good. That's not true. I stare evil and suffering
Speaker 2: in the face, and I am prepared to say this.
Speaker 2: There are certain things that cannot be explained. Only God
Speaker 2: knows the answer to why a child is born with
Speaker 2: terrible suffering and pain. Siamese Twins, I don't know whatever,
Speaker 2: they don't have terrible. They have suffering, but not pain necessarily.
Speaker 2: I'm just giving that as another example. But I've given
Speaker 2: you some of the some of the arguments that sustain me,
Speaker 2: like the Steinberg argument, and I will take your calls,
Speaker 2: any challenge on this you want, because I do believe
Speaker 2: in God and I do confront the reality of evil.
Speaker 2: This is the Ultimate Issues hour on the Dennis Prager Show.
Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.
Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom.
Speaker 2: You're listening to the Dentis Prager Show the Ultimate Issues,
Speaker 2: an hour each week at this time devoted to some
Speaker 2: great issue of life. Doesn't get greater than the question
Speaker 2: of how do you reconcile all the unjust suffering in
Speaker 2: the world with the existence of God, specifically a good God.
Speaker 2: And I fully acknowledge that there comes a point where
Speaker 2: we cannot know the answer, and I find that persuasive.
Speaker 2: I me, trying to understand everything and understand everything about
Speaker 2: God's ways is like my dog trying to understand any
Speaker 2: of my books. It's not available to us. This won't
Speaker 2: satisfy many of you, either religious or non religious, or
Speaker 2: believer or non believer, because you believe that there should
Speaker 2: be an answer to all questions. Since I know that
Speaker 2: we have finite minds, I can live with that finitude
Speaker 2: and that's it. I could live with it. But beyond that,
Speaker 2: I blame human evil on humans. To a certain extent,
Speaker 2: I blame it on God too, to be perfectly honest,
Speaker 2: because he created such a flawed being. I am not
Speaker 2: one of the admirers of humanity. I admire humans, but
Speaker 2: I have contempt for humanity. So just as an aside,
Speaker 2: written an article on that, and I won't I won't
Speaker 2: belabor that point. Now, there are terrific human beings, but
Speaker 2: humanity as a whole has a very unimpressive record, highly unimpressive.
Speaker 2: That's why I always get a kick out of humanists.
Speaker 2: They can't believe in God, but they believe in humanity.
Speaker 2: What a crack up. God's got a better record than humanity.
Speaker 2: All right, let's go to some of your calls here
Speaker 2: and let's uh, let's go to Michael in Someamish, Washington. Hello,
Speaker 2: Michael Dennis Prager. Where is some Amish?
Speaker 4: Where some Amish? Yeah, it's east of Seattle, Washington.
Speaker 3: Okay, I love the name. Go ahead.
Speaker 4: This is really a great honor. Thank you for taking
Speaker 4: my call. He really is.
Speaker 3: Thank you for the comment.
Speaker 4: Just two things, I'll take your comments offline. First of all,
Speaker 4: I think we need to keep in mind that without evil,
Speaker 4: we have no way by which to judge what is good.
Speaker 4: So evil and good are kind of two sides of
Speaker 4: the same coin, if you will. But more deeply than that,
Speaker 4: God created us and desires for us freedom and free will.
Speaker 2: Yeah, your you are, Michael, forgive me. You are explaining evil.
Speaker 2: The great question vis a v. God is not so
Speaker 2: much evil but suffering. That was natural children born with tumors,
Speaker 2: not not the evil that people freely choose, right.
Speaker 4: I just wanted to make the distinction between the two
Speaker 4: kinds of evil. The second point was, was I think
Speaker 4: more an answer to your question. There is an assumption
Speaker 4: in the question that we are to judge, say, an afterlife,
Speaker 4: by this life. It may be the case that God
Speaker 4: tolerates tsunamis because he knows that those innocent children will
Speaker 4: be in a better place. I'm not saying that's the answer.
Speaker 4: I'm saying that is something to reflect on that in
Speaker 4: that life, as we know it may not accurately reflect
Speaker 4: what God's intentions for us are as.
Speaker 2: That's very good, that's very good, Michael. I agree with that.
Speaker 2: I agree, but but it's a variation on my theme
Speaker 2: that we can't understand fully how God has made a
Speaker 2: world like that. The only problem that I have with that,
Speaker 2: and I do agree with everything that Michael said, and
Speaker 2: thank you again for your call, is that it doesn't
Speaker 2: it see saying that we go to a better place,
Speaker 2: which which I have to believe, I mean, I mean,
Speaker 2: I have to believe it intellectually. If we die and
Speaker 2: and and everybody goes to something worse, it would that
Speaker 2: would really be a theological problem. But saying that doesn't
Speaker 2: answer the question fully because you still have the problem
Speaker 2: of this world's suffering. All right, So that baby will
Speaker 2: go to a better place, But what about the parent
Speaker 2: of the child who was killed in the tsunami, who
Speaker 2: has to live out their life here with this, with
Speaker 2: the daily horrific pain of the death of their child.
Speaker 2: So you see, I never minimize This is something I
Speaker 2: need to explain to all of you. I never minimize
Speaker 2: the amount of suffering in this world, the amount of
Speaker 2: of of unjust pain. I believe deeply in God, but
Speaker 2: I don't allow myself to become intellectually weak by making
Speaker 2: the questions simpler or by denying the obvious. The obvious
Speaker 2: is that there was a staggering amount of unjust suffering
Speaker 2: on this planet, and that God made it that way.
Speaker 2: And if you say, well, you blame it on Adam
Speaker 2: and Eve, well that that that that doesn't fully answer
Speaker 2: it for me. Why why would God make a world
Speaker 2: where I I, all of my suffering is because of
Speaker 2: somebody else's choice.
Speaker 3: I believe that story.
Speaker 2: I don't know whether the question of literal or not
Speaker 2: is not irrelevant to not relevant to me, but I
Speaker 2: believe that story. And it's one of the genius stories
Speaker 2: of of of that ever was put put into words,
Speaker 2: and I and I am prepared to believe, even in
Speaker 2: the consequences, the pain of childbirth, the pain of bringing
Speaker 2: forth bread from the earth. But it doesn't answer all
Speaker 2: of the suffering issue, even the Adam and Eve story. Okay,
Speaker 2: and let's go to a good challenge here in Sarasota, Florida. Richard, Hello, Richard,
Speaker 2: Dennis Prager.
Speaker 5: Hi, Dennis, A pleasure to talk to you.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 5: I had just a question about a farmer. Let's say,
Speaker 5: who has a great crop and he thanks God. As
Speaker 5: I was taught to thank God for every blessing growing up,
Speaker 5: and it would just seem logical to be able to
Speaker 5: blame God for a bad crop or a devastating drop,
Speaker 5: or a child lost.
Speaker 2: There are two There are two answers to that, and
Speaker 2: that immediately come to mind. First, it depends on what
Speaker 2: you consider to be the norm. If you consider good
Speaker 2: crops to be the norm and that they just should
Speaker 2: be there for me, then you're right. But it seems
Speaker 2: to me that the miracle is not a bad crop.
Speaker 2: The miracle is that there are any good crops. That
Speaker 2: God made a world where we could feed ourselves.
Speaker 3: As a gift.
Speaker 2: So I think that that becomes the more the good
Speaker 2: crop is more exceptional than the bad crop. But your
Speaker 2: question is a good one. If we thank God for
Speaker 2: good things that happen to us, shouldn't we be angry
Speaker 2: at God or curse God or whatever is the opposite
Speaker 2: of thank for the bad things that happen? Is that
Speaker 2: what you're asking?
Speaker 6: Yes, yes, yeah, all right.
Speaker 2: You're very welcome. Actually, I have no problem with people
Speaker 2: who get angry with God. I think that you ought to.
Speaker 2: I mean, if God is your father in heaven, do
Speaker 2: you ever get did you ever get angry at your
Speaker 2: own father?
Speaker 3: Is it not allowed? Now?
Speaker 2: It has to be within bounds of respect and honor
Speaker 2: and so on. But yes, you can express anger at God.
Speaker 2: You have a real relationship with God. How could it
Speaker 2: just just be on one unidimensional way back in a moment.
Speaker 2: I'm Dennis Prager.
Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.
Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom.
Speaker 2: Dennis Prager. Here the Ultimate Issues Hour. It is the
Speaker 2: hour each week on some great issue of life. Doesn't
Speaker 2: get greater than this. I don't mean great in the
Speaker 2: sense of fun, greater in the sense of importance, and
Speaker 2: that is reconciling God, the existence of, or belief in
Speaker 2: a good God, with all the unjust suffering in the world.
Speaker 2: I have dealt with this my whole life. Anybody who
Speaker 2: thinks and believes has to deal with it. In the
Speaker 2: final analysis, just to recap very quickly and then go
Speaker 2: to more of your calls. There are two forms of
Speaker 2: unjust suffering, evil caused by humans and tragedy caused by nature.
Speaker 2: The nature one really raises more issues vis a vis
Speaker 2: the existence of a good God, then does human evil.
Speaker 2: But the human evil one does too. Is the amount
Speaker 2: of it is staggering amount of it that people have
Speaker 2: engaged in. You wonder did God know how bad people
Speaker 2: would be? And you know there are questions.
Speaker 3: You see.
Speaker 2: I have never found asking questions about God to be
Speaker 2: deleterious to my faith. It's never occurred to me. It's
Speaker 2: like asking questions about my parents. Never quite affected my
Speaker 2: belief that they exist. Of course God exists, the questions
Speaker 2: that become about his nature and so on, But that
Speaker 2: the idea that everything came about by itself is so
Speaker 2: absurd to me. It is so absurd that it doesn't
Speaker 2: dawn on me that there is no God. It dawns
Speaker 2: on me that there are real questions to be asked,
Speaker 2: and I have to figure out answers when possible. But
Speaker 2: it's all one colossal, a bad joke. I don't find
Speaker 2: that terribly intellectually persuasive.
Speaker 3: Never did.
Speaker 2: But I know that for some the issue of God
Speaker 2: is a very difficult one, and they may not have
Speaker 2: been as lucky as I in making peace with God's existence.
Speaker 2: I know very wonderful people who just find it almost
Speaker 2: impossible or impossible to believe in God. I think that,
Speaker 2: and I feel for them because it's it's a richer life,
Speaker 2: much richer life, to believe that there is a good
Speaker 2: God who governs the universe. Not to mention comforting in
Speaker 2: the deepest sense, but I have no problem asking these questions,
Speaker 2: and for some there are no answers, and I guess
Speaker 2: I should repeat at every break the great Milton Steinberg,
Speaker 2: Rabbi Milton Steinberg quote for the believer in the believer
Speaker 2: in God has to account. And I always pats a paraphrase,
Speaker 2: but this is basically what he said. The believer in
Speaker 2: God has to account for the existence of one thing,
Speaker 2: evil and suffering. The atheist has to account for the
Speaker 2: existence of everything else. Please, please do remember that. Okay
Speaker 2: one eight Prager seven seven six, and let's go to
Speaker 2: Litchfield Park, Arizona and Aaron.
Speaker 3: Hello, Aaron Dennis.
Speaker 6: Prager, mister Prager, good day to you. How are you?
Speaker 6: Thank you, wonderful, great honor to speak with you. I
Speaker 6: kind of view it as you know, we are God's children. Obviously,
Speaker 6: I mean I love my children enough to let them
Speaker 6: learn by their own suffering one way or another. I
Speaker 6: know it's a pretty simplistic view, but at the same time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there is suffering you can't learn from. What
Speaker 2: if you're brain damaged by a drunk driver.
Speaker 6: Well, I'm not talking about so much of this life,
Speaker 6: but I mean, what's eternity compared to a lifetime of suffering?
Speaker 6: You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So your answer to the problem of injustice in
Speaker 2: this world is the is the next world? So it's
Speaker 2: by the way, it's mine as well.
Speaker 3: I did a I did, wasn't it. Yeah? I did.
Speaker 3: I did.
Speaker 2: This was very recently. I had an Ultimate Issues hour
Speaker 2: on Heaven and Hell, and I said, if there was
Speaker 2: a good God, then there was then there was reward
Speaker 2: and punishment after we die. It's axiomatic because there was
Speaker 2: so little reward and punishment rightfully done in this world.
Speaker 2: I'm with you, Aaron, I agree entirely. Thank you very much, Denver, Colorado, Eric, Hello, Eric,
Speaker 2: Dennis Praeger, Hi, Dennis.
Speaker 7: I think cell phones may prove that there's a god.
Speaker 2: Cell phones may prove there as a god.
Speaker 6: And how how is that away from you?
Speaker 7: And then getting to talk to one of my favorite mentors.
Speaker 3: Oh, that's very sweet.
Speaker 7: Well, I had more of the subject.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 7: The classical philosophical view I've been taught was rephrase, rephrase
Speaker 7: the question a little different. Because God is all good
Speaker 7: and because he's all powerful, then we are already living
Speaker 7: in the best of all worlds. That that's the macroview
Speaker 7: I learned from from you. Of my ProView, I think
Speaker 7: is my world just where. I mean. I've had things
Speaker 7: very tough.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 7: I had a million dollar staate stoled by my ex wife.
Speaker 7: She beats my kids with a whip and lectric cord,
Speaker 7: and it's been enormously tough. She's now trying to get
Speaker 7: me thrown in jail. And through all that difficulty, I've
Speaker 7: learned a ton.
Speaker 3: You've learned what I've learned a ton.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 7: I've learned more about myself. I've become maybe a person.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, there are yes you have.
Speaker 2: But I'll comment on this learning from suffering when we
Speaker 2: come back the Ultimate Issues hour on the Dennis Praeger Show.
Speaker 2: Amazing to me that I haven't addressed this on the
Speaker 2: Ultimate Issues Hour, and that is the issue of unjust
Speaker 2: suffering and evil and reconciling those with belief in a
Speaker 2: good God. It's called the odyssey. It's the problem of
Speaker 2: in a nutshell, the problem with evil? How do you
Speaker 2: believe in God? The Last Call, excellent one and I
Speaker 2: thank you again was a fair kind com It was
Speaker 2: about learning from suffering. Many many people do, in fact
Speaker 2: bring that up as one way of answering the problem,
Speaker 2: and that there's a lot of truth to it. I
Speaker 2: would say to you that all the suffering of my
Speaker 2: life has been an educational experience. I have learned an
Speaker 2: immense amount from that suffering. And sometimes you meet people
Speaker 2: and you feel that they really haven't suffered, although it's
Speaker 2: pretty rare, and they don't seem to be terribly a
Speaker 2: compassionate or if not even compassion I should say empathetic.
Speaker 2: They may well have compassion for people who suffer, but
Speaker 2: or not a lot of wisdom, or not a lot
Speaker 2: of maturity. I mean suffering. Suffering has its role, there's
Speaker 2: no question. But there is a form of suffering that
Speaker 2: there's nothing you can't learn. There's nothing to be learned from.
Speaker 2: As I said, you're rendered brain damaged by a drunk driver.
Speaker 2: What is it you're going to learn? You can't even
Speaker 2: learn your brain damaged. I mean, so it's not we
Speaker 2: who believe in God can't give facile answers. I believe
Speaker 2: atheists give facile answers. Well, we don't know how it
Speaker 2: all came about, but science will tell us one day.
Speaker 2: Everything came about on its own. How do I know?
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I assume it. That's facial to me. Now,
Speaker 2: the agnostic, the one who's look, there are arguments on
Speaker 2: all so that that's a separate issue. But the atheist,
Speaker 2: I don't like facile atheist answers. I don't like facile
Speaker 2: theist answers. We who believe in God have to be
Speaker 2: intellectually honest. Make a lot more believers in God when
Speaker 2: we're intellectually honest, and if we give cliched responses. But
Speaker 2: having said all that, I do not believe that suffering
Speaker 2: says there is no God. See it might to those
Speaker 2: of you who believe that God will protect you, alan
Speaker 2: we should put that down as one of these ultimate issues,
Speaker 2: that will you be protected if you do the right
Speaker 2: the right religious things, or believe the right religious things.
Speaker 2: I've never in my life believed that because I'm religious
Speaker 2: or because I'm good to the extent that I'm a
Speaker 2: good person, whichever one or both, that I will be
Speaker 2: protected from cancer or I will be protected from a
Speaker 2: drunk driver.
Speaker 3: I'd never believe that.
Speaker 2: It's it's not the way God works. It's it's like
Speaker 2: a deal with God. You don't make deals with God.
Speaker 2: As Harold Kushner, the author of When Bad Things Happen
Speaker 2: To Good People, put it to me very well, and
Speaker 2: one of the many dialogues we have had, and and said,
Speaker 2: you know, if a if a righteous man goes out
Speaker 2: in a very in very cold weather without without a code,
Speaker 2: he's just as likely to get pneumonia as the as
Speaker 2: an unrighteous man who goes out without a code on.
Speaker 2: That's that's the way it works. That's the way of
Speaker 2: the world. All alrighty, and let's go to Charles in
Speaker 2: Los Angeles. Charles Dennis Prager, thanks for calling.
Speaker 8: Oh Dennis, thank you. An example of unjust suffering is
Speaker 8: that you're only on the radio three hours a day.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, at a given point, it would be unjust
Speaker 2: suffering for me.
Speaker 8: Well, now, you mentioned earlier your first segment of the
Speaker 8: show about how you attribute evil acts to men. In
Speaker 8: the example of the Iraqi family getting blown up, but
Speaker 8: then you're also arguing that good goodness, the goods in
Speaker 8: the world, and the good acts that men do to
Speaker 8: to others, to humanity, is attributable to God.
Speaker 2: So how do we reconcile that there was there was
Speaker 2: a breakup?
Speaker 3: Are you on a cell phone?
Speaker 6: I am?
Speaker 2: That's okay, there was a couple of there were a
Speaker 2: few words. How do we reconcile the evil done by
Speaker 2: men with what?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 8: With you attributed the blowing up?
Speaker 2: The Oh? I see the okay? So when will I
Speaker 2: blame men when nature does evil? I don't blame God? Yes,
Speaker 2: I see, well, I do?
Speaker 3: I do?
Speaker 2: I said earlier there was there was an analogous question
Speaker 2: post to me, and I absolutely do. God, you created
Speaker 2: a world where where there where there will be a
Speaker 2: metastasized cells called cancer. You created a world with tsunamis,
Speaker 2: you created a world with earthquakes, with with the with
Speaker 2: the ability to have the terrible plagues and the flu
Speaker 2: that will kill twenty five million people at a time.
Speaker 2: And yes, absolutely, and but so so why does that
Speaker 2: negate God's existence? That's why I have such a firm
Speaker 2: belief to say, you know, God, I really think you
Speaker 2: made a big booboo here, to which I then answer, Dennis,
Speaker 2: you're an idiot. You're telling God that he made a mistake.
Speaker 2: What the hell do you, Dennis know compared to God.
Speaker 2: That's why I use the answer Charles about job where
Speaker 2: God says coming you don't know anything compared to me,
Speaker 2: But yes I do. I absolutely attribute that stuff to God.
Speaker 3: Charles, you with me, Yes, I'm here.
Speaker 8: So really, what we have are two subsets of good
Speaker 8: as well as two subsets of evil. Those acts that
Speaker 8: are attributable to man and those acts that are attributable
Speaker 8: to God.
Speaker 6: Yeah, would you break.
Speaker 3: It down and that Yeah, that's fine, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 8: Okay, So then what we have in fact is the
Speaker 8: unjust or just suffering where there's the obvious cause and effect.
Speaker 8: To me, is suffering that is caused by mankind towards
Speaker 8: one another, the unjust suffering.
Speaker 3: No, that's unjust too.
Speaker 8: Well, if you do something evil to someone else and.
Speaker 2: There's a direction, Oh yeah, you're right, Yes, there's just
Speaker 2: you're right, I got you. There's for a subsets. Yes,
Speaker 2: there's just suffering and unjust suffering caused by man. There's
Speaker 2: just suffering and unjust suffering caused by God. Fine, that's
Speaker 2: exactly right. But I need you all to hear I'm
Speaker 2: not scared of blaming God. I'm not scared of getting
Speaker 2: angry at God nothing. I have a full, full relationship
Speaker 2: in that sense. God has not asked me to abandon
Speaker 2: my heart or my brain when coming to Him. And
Speaker 2: that's one of the reasons that I can make a
Speaker 2: persuasive case for God because I'm not afraid of any questions.
Speaker 2: I've already posed them, and I continue to do so
Speaker 2: and I get annoyed with Him.
Speaker 3: We'll be back in a moment.
Speaker 1: This episode of Timeless Wisdom will continue right after this.
Speaker 1: Now back to more of Dennis Prager's Timeless Wisdom.
Speaker 2: You're listening to the Dennis Prager Show. I've been talking
Speaker 2: to you on this Ultimate Issues hour, which is every
Speaker 2: week at this time, about the great and vexing issue
Speaker 2: of reconciling God, or belief in God, with all the
Speaker 2: evil and suffering in the world.
Speaker 3: And I.
Speaker 2: Have been able to do so. Now there may be
Speaker 2: a test of such suffering that it would break my faith.
Speaker 2: I can't know. I can't know, but I have deep
Speaker 2: empathy for suffering to begin with, and I have had
Speaker 2: my own and loved ones have had worse than I.
Speaker 3: It has not.
Speaker 2: I believe a good God governs this universe, and I
Speaker 2: cannot fully reconcile all this bad stuff with him. I
Speaker 2: acknowledge that. So what what is my choice? My choice
Speaker 2: is to believe everything is a coincidence. My choice is
Speaker 2: to believe it all came about on its own. Intelligence
Speaker 2: comes comes from from rocks. I'm able to talk to
Speaker 2: your minds and your hearts and your souls through through
Speaker 2: the magic of radio and all of this just it
Speaker 2: just is. It just came about. That's more intellectually satisfying.
Speaker 2: There's no comparison. And in the final analysis, although my
Speaker 2: theology is different than his, he has had a big
Speaker 2: effect on me. Harold Kushner in his book When Bad
Speaker 2: Things Happen to Good People. God doesn't stop the bad,
Speaker 2: but God is there when it happens.
Speaker 3: I love that. I love that.
Speaker 2: It's very very powerful. Yes, God allows these bad things
Speaker 2: to happen, but He is there when they happen for
Speaker 2: you to reach out to and to bring into your life.
Speaker 2: My very God centered life. I may be maybe personal
Speaker 2: for a moment, but at the same time I never
Speaker 2: abandoned reason and I believe, I truly believe that there
Speaker 2: is more reason in a god based understanding of the
Speaker 2: universe than in an atheist based understanding of the universe.
Speaker 2: It is our task to reach out to those who suffer,
Speaker 2: to help them, to make this world a place where
Speaker 2: it is obvious that there is a good God. I
Speaker 2: wish I could take all your calls. Beth Sally Scott,
Speaker 2: Jane Kendall. Kendall's son died from chronic illness and prompted
Speaker 2: him to be more compassionate, create support groups. God bless
Speaker 2: you Kendall and the memory of your son. Those of
Speaker 2: you who find these topics compelling, please please know that
Speaker 2: I have many CDs on God's existence, on the meaning
Speaker 2: of life, and so on two five eighty five eighty
Speaker 2: four eight hundred two two five eight five eighty four
Speaker 2: or Dennisprager dot com or Prager Radio dot com.
Speaker 3: I hope this will help you. Thank you for.
Speaker 1: Listening tomorrow on Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.
Speaker 2: I would like to make and I will indeed make
Speaker 2: the case for marriage for men. So this should interest
Speaker 2: the two groups out there, men and women. The case
Speaker 2: for marriage for men, because a lot of men argue,
Speaker 2: what do I need this for? One of the ways
Speaker 2: they do it, and this is going to be one
Speaker 2: of my arguments for guys to get married, is it
Speaker 2: makes you a man?
Speaker 1: Join us tomorrow to hear more on Timeless Wisdom with
Speaker 1: Dennis Pragger. This has been Timeless Wisdom with Dennis Prager.
Speaker 1: Visit Dennispragger dot com for thousands of hours of Dennis's lectures,
Speaker 1: core is in classic radio programs, and to purchase Dennis
Speaker 1: Prager's Rational Bibles, M