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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer, and I'm

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Speaker 1: joined today by Angela Wesley, and we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about her new book, Becoming pro Grace, expanding the

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Speaker 1: abortion conversation beyond life versus Choice. Angel is not over

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Speaker 1: the author of the book, but she's also the CEO

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Speaker 1: and founder of pro Grace. It's an organization that really

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Speaker 1: facilitates transformative learning experiences from christ followers to break through

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Speaker 1: the abortion divibe. So the book and the ministry to

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Speaker 1: kind of go hand in hand. Welcome Angela. It's great

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Speaker 1: top the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Great to be here.

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Speaker 1: James Well, tell us a little bit about I always

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Speaker 1: like when I have author on I always like to

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Speaker 1: understand kind of where they're coming from, what brought them

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Speaker 1: to this topic, and so what was your life experience

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Speaker 1: that brought you into writing Becoming pro grace?

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Speaker 2: Very interesting. So as I was growing up, I grew

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Speaker 2: up in a household that to be Christian was to

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Speaker 2: be pro life. I didn't really, you know, question that.

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Speaker 2: I did have some tension even as a teenager hearing

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Speaker 2: it brought up in school, different things that happened, but

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Speaker 2: I didn't get involved in the issue, right. I don't

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Speaker 2: think a lot of people do, right. I was just like,

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Speaker 2: I feel a little tense about it. I'm not really

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Speaker 2: comfortable with it. It was just mainly my view. And

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Speaker 2: so I spent ten years in Christian ministry, and then

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Speaker 2: we left that ministry we were with and started doing

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Speaker 2: some different sales work and different things. And when I

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Speaker 2: felt like I wanted to go back into ministry again,

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Speaker 2: I found a Christian pregnancy center that was in downtown Chicago.

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Speaker 2: And when I read what they did, they supported women

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Speaker 2: who were pregnant, and I thought, this is great, this

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Speaker 2: will be common ground, it won't be political, and so

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Speaker 2: I took that position. Actually, I took a position as

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Speaker 2: director of development twenty years ago in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 2: and quickly realized, oh, this organization is smack dab in

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Speaker 2: the middle of the debate. I had no idea when

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Speaker 2: I came in, and I had no idea how Christians

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Speaker 2: were framing this issue, especially those who were in direct

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Speaker 2: service work with women, so that journey basically was I

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Speaker 2: was uncomfortable. I had trusted colleagues and wonderful people working

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Speaker 2: around me who weren't trying to do anything offensive. Their

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Speaker 2: hearts were really for helping women. I started feeling like

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Speaker 2: we are not seeing the women, like there's a definite

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Speaker 2: agenda running through here, that this is about the child,

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Speaker 2: and the way we talked to donors about it, even

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Speaker 2: the way we advertise on our website that we would

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Speaker 2: be a certain place, and then when women came in,

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Speaker 2: there was more of a persuasion model that wasn't disclosed

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Speaker 2: ahead of time. Things like that made me incredibly uncomfortable

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Speaker 2: because I come from a more legalistic background and I

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Speaker 2: had been freed by grace, a true theological understanding of

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Speaker 2: the radical grace of Jesus, and I realized walking into this,

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Speaker 2: this is a very legalistic way of approaching this it's

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Speaker 2: actually not aligned with the Gospel of Grace, and that

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Speaker 2: started me with a I really did start almost with

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Speaker 2: a theological deconstructing of why and trying to talk to

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Speaker 2: people around me, the board, other staff to have a

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Speaker 2: different framework. And I should say this because I tried

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Speaker 2: to make changes right away. So I started leading the

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Speaker 2: organization about a year after I came in, and I

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Speaker 2: told the board I'm going to make these changes. We

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Speaker 2: need to be equally for the woman and the child.

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Speaker 2: And they were like yes, and we were all like

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Speaker 2: how hard can this be? Was incredibly difficult because what

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize is to have mental models that we

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Speaker 2: don't even know where they came from. They've just been

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Speaker 2: with us or with our stream of Christianity for so

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Speaker 2: long that when someone says something different, it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: have you switched to the other side? Are you promoting

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Speaker 2: a totally different approach? And so I had to go

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Speaker 2: way back. I wrote an eight page paper that I

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Speaker 2: would send to the pastor of the Moody Church, who

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Speaker 2: was thankfully connected to our organization, and I would write

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Speaker 2: back and forth and say this is how I think

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Speaker 2: Jesus interacted with people and how he would value the

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Speaker 2: woman and child equally. You know, this is what I

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Speaker 2: want to implement through the whole organization. But it really

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Speaker 2: was theology and heart change first before we could do

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Speaker 2: any type of the direct service work. So where that

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Speaker 2: leads me to progress today is that I really started.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to see my whole team, I should say

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Speaker 2: all of us wanted to see our partner churches be

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Speaker 2: welcome spaces for women who are pregnant, whether they were

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Speaker 2: connecting from our organization or within that congregation. And so

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Speaker 2: we do. We know that everywhere is safe again well

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Speaker 2: meaning people, but are we safe for this conversation? And

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Speaker 2: that is where I started writing with a colleague that

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Speaker 2: same theology in an experiential form for anyone in the church.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't just for our direct service organization anymore. I

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Speaker 2: developed a passion that we, as the Capital C Church,

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Speaker 2: could have a theological paradigm that is not tied to

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Speaker 2: either political party, but is really rooted in Jesus. And

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Speaker 2: that's why I launched tro Grace about ten years ago.

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Speaker 1: So talk a little bit about the pro Grace framework

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Speaker 1: that you've developed, because I think that is really crucial.

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Speaker 1: As again, I've had some experience in this realm and

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Speaker 1: have I've found it very interesting the way very well

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Speaker 1: meaning Christians understand the abortion issue. And you know how

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Speaker 1: the Republican platforms of democratic platforms very much shaped the

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Speaker 1: discourse around it. And so I think I'm identifying some

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Speaker 1: of the same things that you're identifying. Is what we

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Speaker 1: really need is a Christian mind about this, that we

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Speaker 1: can approach this issue and really have a robust theological

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Speaker 1: discourse about what's going on and see the problem beyond

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Speaker 1: the political conversations, so that really christ can govern this

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Speaker 1: whole conversation. That's a fair way to put it.

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Speaker 2: That's a beautiful way to put it. That is my heart.

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Speaker 2: And the whole reason Prograce exists because and we were

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Speaker 2: talking before the show, why you name your show Christianity

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Speaker 2: without Compromise is that you want to see Christians living

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Speaker 2: out the truth of Scripture, which is the story of

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Speaker 2: Jesus right and his whole example he showed us who

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Speaker 2: the Father is. And what I've realized along the way

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Speaker 2: is that by defaulting to primarily political positions and for

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Speaker 2: Christians to lead with I'm pro life or I'm pro

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Speaker 2: choice and then use those same words that same posture

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Speaker 2: that is compromising our faith, is compromising our Christian witness

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Speaker 2: because we have an entire canon of scripture that shows

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Speaker 2: us what God is like, and neither political party is

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Speaker 2: governed by that. They're not governed by what God is like.

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Speaker 2: To be a political party, you have to rally your followers, right,

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Speaker 2: so there has to be rhetoric. There has to be

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Speaker 2: another side, or sometimes even an enemy. And in this

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Speaker 2: particular case, the messaging goes out that you're either for

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Speaker 2: the child or for the woman, right, that's the And

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Speaker 2: actually when you think about the laws, they're viewed as

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Speaker 2: a zero sum game. There's a winner and there's a loser.

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Speaker 2: It's either legal or it's not. It's either better for

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Speaker 2: children or better for women, and so everything around that

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Speaker 2: gets framed in an either or and puts women and

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Speaker 2: children in an adversarial role, and then puts us as

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Speaker 2: Christians even in adversarial roles against each other depending on

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Speaker 2: which political party we are. So that's why the BRACE

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Speaker 2: framework starts by stepping back and saying, what if we

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Speaker 2: imagined laying that down for a second. And I'm not

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Speaker 2: calling anyone to not be political or to lay down

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Speaker 2: political affiliation sure. What I'm saying is, what if we

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Speaker 2: use our imagination to think, how would Jesus interact with

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Speaker 2: this issue? What's the actual Jesus centered lens to view

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Speaker 2: this through and make that our primary affiliation lead with that,

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Speaker 2: and then make our political viewpoints secondary. What would happen?

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Speaker 2: I mean, it is kind of an experiment, right, like

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Speaker 2: what would happen? So then I don't have any questions

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Speaker 2: about that before I launch into the actual theology of

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Speaker 2: the prograce framework.

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean, I think what I

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Speaker 1: hear you saying is that really it's something that I

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Speaker 1: don't know I take from Augustine, right it's about the

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Speaker 1: ordering of loves and that He's got this wonderful analogy

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Speaker 1: and I've said it before on the show, but it's

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Speaker 1: you take all your other loves and you throw them

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Speaker 1: into the current of God's love, your love for God,

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Speaker 1: and so they're immersed within that, and they're then conditioned

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Speaker 1: to buy it. They change and shift, but your love

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Speaker 1: of God stays sturdy and strong. And that's basically what

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Speaker 1: I hear you saying is let's sort of nest these

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Speaker 1: other things within a real deep loyalty and devotion to God.

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Speaker 1: And when we do that, it's not that those things

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Speaker 1: have to go away, it's that the way we interact

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Speaker 1: with them is going to change because our not even

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Speaker 1: our first loyalty, our only loyalty is to God. We're

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Speaker 1: giving him all we are and have. And because we've

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Speaker 1: given all that loyalty to God, the way we interact

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Speaker 1: with anything else is going to change.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely, And I would say there are so many

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Speaker 2: thoughtful Christians on both political sides that that's their intent.

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Speaker 2: We believe we're doing that. But we've only been given

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Speaker 2: these two options, right, So that's where the is is

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Speaker 2: to really try to lay them down first and think

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Speaker 2: not just our love for God, but God's love for us,

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Speaker 2: God's love for humanity. It really starts there. What does

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Speaker 2: that look like? And that's the pro grace framework is

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Speaker 2: rooted in these two theological points. The first is equal value,

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Speaker 2: equal dignity. So that's everything we've talked about. There's a

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Speaker 2: false binary of are you going to advocate for the

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Speaker 2: woman or the child? Where God is equally passionate about both,

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Speaker 2: there's equal dignity for both. If we could just start

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Speaker 2: from that posture, we start to see how so many

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Speaker 2: of the political framing is not helpful because it doesn't

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Speaker 2: take that into consideration, and that in itself can be

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Speaker 2: a very uniquely Christian response is that we value the

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Speaker 2: imago day in every person equally, and we're going to

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Speaker 2: start all of our thinking, our conversations, and our engagement

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Speaker 2: from that place that already shifts a ton. And then

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Speaker 2: the second theological point is grace as the path for

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Speaker 2: two transformation. And so again I do think there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of judgment. There's legalism starting even within the church,

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Speaker 2: and how we view other people who may think differently

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Speaker 2: from us or the other side politically, and to be honest,

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Speaker 2: from my experience, even ourselves, I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: this comes from not understanding grace for ourselves means that

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Speaker 2: we have to pick some of these issues that we

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Speaker 2: feel really Christian in right. But when we understand that

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Speaker 2: God loves us exactly as we are, and we can

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Speaker 2: start from this freedom of grace and have that shape

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Speaker 2: every conversation and how we view every person touched by

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Speaker 2: this issue, that then is the second piece of the

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Speaker 2: framework that really starts to form this uniquely Christian response

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Speaker 2: to abortion and hopefully unite us as Christians around those

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Speaker 2: things first, those shared values with Jesus as our model,

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Speaker 2: following his example.

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Speaker 1: And how do you, I mean, how do you think

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Speaker 1: through what's that You have a Republican and a Democrat, right,

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Speaker 1: and they're both sort of champion in these causes. How

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Speaker 1: do you think about bringing those two together other than

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Speaker 1: lifting them out of a political party and back up

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Speaker 1: into the body of Christ as they're animating identity. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it just seems to me that the two pillars of

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Speaker 1: that Prograce framework, the imago day and the grace that

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Speaker 1: we need to give one another, that we need to

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Speaker 1: give ourselves we need to give others, those two really

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Speaker 1: do point backwards as opposed to embedding us within any

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Speaker 1: one political party. They remind us that there has to

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Speaker 1: be something prior to these arrangements that really is where

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Speaker 1: we should be rooting our identities.

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Speaker 2: In Absolutely yes, and so over the years, the community

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Speaker 2: that makes up pro Grace actually are Christians who are

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Speaker 2: both who can choose one of those political parties, and

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Speaker 2: so we all do with the understanding that that political

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Speaker 2: party cannot contain the heart of God. I would say

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Speaker 2: that is the first place if there are Christians who

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Speaker 2: really believe that their political party is the arm of God.

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Speaker 2: Then this is not a conversation that's going to be

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Speaker 2: helpful or resonant. And I don't know how to I

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Speaker 2: would know how to talk to someone, but that's the

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Speaker 2: party of Christians that I talk to. Default. There's this

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Speaker 2: sense of well, there's a default. I'm uncomfortable with some

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Speaker 2: parts of my preferred political side, but I have to

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Speaker 2: tip somewhere. That is the ideal place. That's the ideal

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Speaker 2: thought process of a Christian who can say, oh, actually,

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Speaker 2: this would relieve my tension that I feel about my

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Speaker 2: political party if I could have my Kingdom affiliation or

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Speaker 2: you know, my Christian affiliation sit above that. That actually,

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Speaker 2: and again it doesn't mean that we aren't still a

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Speaker 2: Democrat or Republican. It means we don't lead with that,

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Speaker 2: we don't try to stir up conflict with that. We

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Speaker 2: do set it down for the sake of being reformed

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Speaker 2: and understanding how much we've informed by political parties instead

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Speaker 2: of Jesus. So I would say, that's what we do

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Speaker 2: all day long. And one of the tools is I

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Speaker 2: don't tell anybody how I vote. I actually don't tell

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Speaker 2: anybody how I vote. And you don't have to be

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Speaker 2: that way to be pro grace. But I just found

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Speaker 2: it most helpful in my position because I will not

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Speaker 2: be able to talk to people if that is something

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Speaker 2: I talk about. I talk about abortion all the time,

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Speaker 2: and I talk about it through this theological lens and

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Speaker 2: have very productive conversations. And I never asked the person

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Speaker 2: I'm talking to how they vote. Now they might volunteer it.

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Speaker 2: But the second piece is to be committed to not

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Speaker 2: view my sister or brother the way I've been trained

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Speaker 2: through a political party, to see them as different from

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Speaker 2: me because they tip to one side politically. I really

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Speaker 2: think as Christians committed to the imago day and grace,

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Speaker 2: we will have more in common with each other than

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Speaker 2: we will the fringes on our political party. And that

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Speaker 2: I think is the challenge for Christians to see ourselves

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Speaker 2: as believers first seeking this unity, and then our politics

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Speaker 2: second or third or wherever that falls for different people.

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Speaker 1: Right, And like when you're I don't want to make

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Speaker 1: this all about the politics, but I think it's a

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Speaker 1: big part of this, So I just want to ask

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Speaker 1: kind of a follow up question on it. But it

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Speaker 1: strikes me that what you're talking about you know, if

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Speaker 1: let's say you have a Christian's part of the pro

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Speaker 1: Grace movement, they're really rooting their identity back in christ

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Speaker 1: not in their political party, but they are still participating

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Speaker 1: in those political parties. It seems to me that what

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Speaker 1: we'd love to see happen, what I would love to

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Speaker 1: see happen, is for those Christians to say, you know,

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Speaker 1: let's say you're advocating for the you know, your particular

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Speaker 1: party is advocating for the rights of women, right, but

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Speaker 1: that there would be consideration at the policy level, an

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Speaker 1: advocacy for no, it also needs to care for the child,

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Speaker 1: like and the balance on the other side of we

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Speaker 1: really want to care for the child, but we have

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Speaker 1: to recognize that there are a lot of social and

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Speaker 1: economic issues that we've got to care for if we

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Speaker 1: really want to make I always go back to something

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Speaker 1: my wife says, she works in hospitals a lot, and

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Speaker 1: in these you know, sort of high reliability environments, they say,

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Speaker 1: let's make it easy for people to make the right choice.

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Speaker 1: And it feels like, you know, within that political environment,

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Speaker 1: that's what we would want. We'd want Christians advocating for Yes,

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Speaker 1: we want to we want to have this child protected,

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Speaker 1: but we also want to make it easier for women

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Speaker 1: to make the right choice. And is that sort of

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Speaker 1: how this would play itself out? Am I am I

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Speaker 1: catching the drift of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is a great conversation because you're totally understanding.

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Speaker 2: I just do want to stop on a word choice.

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Speaker 2: We talked about this before the podcast. This is good

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Speaker 2: even saying and I get why your wife is saying

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Speaker 2: it in healthcare because that means like taking care of

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Speaker 2: their diabetes or whatever. But I think, you know, helping

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Speaker 2: women make the right choice is still loaded politically and

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Speaker 2: has been used to a way that can feel very

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Speaker 2: shaming to women. This doesn't mean we don't have ethical

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Speaker 2: thoughts about abortion and we can't really talk about it.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot in the book about this,

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Speaker 2: because I have fifty thousand words to not be misunderstood,

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Speaker 2: you know, I have an ethical view on the act

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Speaker 2: of abortion. Christians can have an ethical view on it.

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Speaker 2: What I'm saying is when we make some of these

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Speaker 2: statements that we've just been conditioned to make, it sends

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Speaker 2: a signal that we still are going to be pushing

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Speaker 2: people in some way, or we're not truly welcoming or

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Speaker 2: we're not without agenda. So the way I would frame

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Speaker 2: it theologically is that if we go right back to

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Speaker 2: the mystery of pregnancy and we think about God's design,

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Speaker 2: he did not have to do it this way, right,

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Speaker 2: we sit with the mystery of God. He could have

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Speaker 2: done it a different way. But there is something we

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Speaker 2: need to pause on that it's entrusted to women first

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Speaker 2: of all, and secondly there's a man and a woman involved,

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Speaker 2: which is also an important I mean, you can already

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Speaker 2: hear what I'm touching on a lot of really important things.

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Speaker 2: And women are entrusted to nurture another person. You know,

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Speaker 2: they're intertwined for nine months. And the fact is that

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Speaker 2: if you've ever been around someone who's pregnant, you understand

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Speaker 2: anything we do to one affects the other. Right, it

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Speaker 2: is this intertwined relationship. If you want to get really

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Speaker 2: meta theologically, you could even start to think about what

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Speaker 2: it says about all creation and how we're interdependent on

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Speaker 2: each other, which is why I'm promoting this way of

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Speaker 2: peace and reconciliation. So with that, I think going in

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Speaker 2: with an equal value, equal dignity could completely reframe political discussions,

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Speaker 2: and I am a dreamer. I could see that happening.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how many years out, but I think

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Speaker 2: it needs to start coming from Christians like you're saying,

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Speaker 2: because I think it comes from a uniquely Christian place

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Speaker 2: of saying. Listen, if we truly value both people, then

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Speaker 2: how could we work together? Because both women and children

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Speaker 2: deserve all these social structures you're talking about, we make

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Speaker 2: it incredibly difficult to raise children. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 2: know if we want to go into this, but we

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Speaker 2: rank like fortieth out of forty forty countries in guaranteed

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Speaker 2: maternity leave. So could Christians from both parties say wait

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Speaker 2: a second enough, you know, because of the Amago Day,

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Speaker 2: we're going to step in and advocate for these policies.

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Speaker 2: I look to try and find common ground policies that

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Speaker 2: had been passed in Congress. There is one that was

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Speaker 2: passed about pregnancy and parenting, which was great, but it

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Speaker 2: took like ten years because there's so little work across

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Speaker 2: the aisle, and we are fighting about things that are

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Speaker 2: largely irrelevant to people on the ground, saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is all I can see to do because of

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Speaker 2: all these other factors happening, and it is one of

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Speaker 2: the things that makes me the most crazy. And it's

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Speaker 2: why I'd like to take attention away from the political

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Speaker 2: what we disagree on, and you hit it. There are

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Speaker 2: so many policies we could work on together as believers

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Speaker 2: that would show God's value and dignity for both people,

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Speaker 2: and we just we're busy doing other things.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you this question because this is something

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Speaker 1: I've thought about. You know, Jesus at one point is

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Speaker 1: confronted about divorce and he's sort of respond you know,

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Speaker 1: the Pharisees and the statuties are asking him, like, why

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Speaker 1: did Moses tell us to get a certificate a divorce

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Speaker 1: if God's against divorce? And Jesus basically says it was

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Speaker 1: because of the hardness of your heart. And what it

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Speaker 1: suggests to me is that the law is there in

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Speaker 1: some respects to manage human sinfulness. We often talk about

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Speaker 1: it as a restraint, but obviously that it can't transform

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Speaker 1: the heart, and it isn't always prescribing an ideal. It's

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Speaker 1: often dealing with brokenness, right, And so I'm wondering that

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Speaker 1: that sort of lead in for this question is how

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Speaker 1: does the Prograce framework help us recognize the limitations of

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Speaker 1: the law, the limitations of the political environment, and how

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Speaker 1: much how far policy can go. I think policy is important, right,

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Speaker 1: laws are important, but they have a limit. And then

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Speaker 1: that limit is where the church really needs to kick in.

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Speaker 1: I go back to work by David Fitch. Maybe you're

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Speaker 1: familiar with it, but The Great Giveaway, if you're familiar

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Speaker 1: with that book, he talks about the church and how

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Speaker 1: it's given away some of the things that are crucial

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Speaker 1: to its witness to these different entities that are around

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Speaker 1: and I think politics and he references that too. I

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Speaker 1: just happen to agree with him. We tend to lean

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Speaker 1: on government like and can fix everything, like if we

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Speaker 1: just have the right laws and policies in place, like

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Speaker 1: this will work. So how does the Prograce framework help

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Speaker 1: us to sort of step back and go No, the

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Speaker 1: church could really own this issue in a unique way

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Speaker 1: without abandoning policy. Yeah, but using policies supplementally and where

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Speaker 1: to amazing.

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, when you put that book in

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Speaker 2: the show notes, I need to read that book because yeah,

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Speaker 2: that is I feel like we have again, we have Jesus,

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Speaker 2: the Great Lover of humanity as our example. And we

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Speaker 2: have abdicated to these angry political rhetoric. I mean, it's

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Speaker 2: exactly the whole progress framework is rooted in that thought

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Speaker 2: that God loves people far more than either political party

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Speaker 2: and as his followers, that love is what should be

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Speaker 2: flowing out of us. And I go into a lot

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Speaker 2: of detail in the book, but if you actually think

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Speaker 2: about why the laws are needed, it's exactly what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: They're managing people who are in a situation where they

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Speaker 2: don't feel like there's any other option. And let me

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Speaker 2: just give an example. Almost six out of ten women

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Speaker 2: who have abortions already have a child. So you're talking

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Speaker 2: about people that value children. Of course they already have

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Speaker 2: a child, but there are so many roadblocks in the

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Speaker 2: way to raising that one child that they just can't

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Speaker 2: see a way to have another one. That is a

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Speaker 2: very different framework. Then either political side talks about that.

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Speaker 2: Christians could rally around and that and start asking questions,

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Speaker 2: why do we have a society that it's so difficult

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Speaker 2: to raise children? That this is what's happening. So that's

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Speaker 2: a huge limitation of the law. It's allowing for something

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Speaker 2: that a lot of people and I know this from

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Speaker 2: personal experience and interviews, a lot of people don't want

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Speaker 2: They're not growing up saying I can't wait to have

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Speaker 2: my abortion. I know, I can't wait to exercise my

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Speaker 2: right to choose. It's happening because there's pressures, there's blockages,

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Speaker 2: there's societal realities, there's any qualities between the genders. You know,

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Speaker 2: I found research in the book. There's the called the

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Speaker 2: fatherhood premium and the motherhood penalty, and there's science behind

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Speaker 2: In the workplace, men make more money as they become

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Speaker 2: dads trajectively over their whole career. Women make less when

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Speaker 2: they become mothers. I mean, these are things all Christians

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Speaker 2: should be deeply concerned about because we're not starting on

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Speaker 2: an equal playing field in this co of having children.

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Speaker 2: The second limitation of the law, I think goes back

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Speaker 2: to theology, which is what is the whole gospel and

435
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 2: Paul talk about the law was just in place to

436
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 2: lead us to Christ. It can't actually change parts. You know,

437
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: It's exactly what you said, it's a guardrail. And so

438
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: just again owning this piece of our faith that says

439
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 2: Grace and Jesus are far surpass the law, they're the

440
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,359
Speaker 2: fulfillment of the law. We've got to be thinking above laws.

441
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 2: It's not to say laws aren't important, you know, not

442
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 2: to say we shouldn't be involved in policy, but you're

443
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 2: exactly right to frame it as limitation and what sits

444
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 2: higher and that is actually caring for people. And it's

445
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 2: the similar thought to what your wife was saying. Caring

446
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 2: for people so that they have what they need brings

447
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: better outcomes than just not working together as a community

448
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,520
Speaker 2: and then just trying to limit everything with laws. Right,

449
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: It's why we care for people who can't afford food.

450
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,800
Speaker 2: You know, what if people were breaking into grocery stores

451
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: and we were like, oh, we really got to legislate

452
00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 2: around that, it's like, well, let's just make sure everybody

453
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 2: has food. You know, if we look at that first,

454
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 2: the human condition, what's happening for people, much better outcomes

455
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: than just legislation.

456
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: So no, it's really an interesting problem. And I will

457
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 1: say I've shared this story with others, but my wife

458
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: and I when we were when she was pregnant with

459
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: our first child, the doctor and ended up being a misdiagnosis,

460
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,679
Speaker 1: but diagnosed them with a genetic condition and actually referred

461
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 1: as to a hospital where we could get an abortion. Yeah,

462
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: we were at a Catholic healthcare system and kind of

463
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: sent us over to a different place. We obviously opted

464
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: not to do that, and our son was fine. But

465
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: I will say, like we had, we felt that pressure.

466
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things is we've reflected

467
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: back on it has been you know, number one, you know,

468
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: we're calling people to pray, we're asking questions, we're investigating

469
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: as much as we can about what could be. But

470
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: we also had a social network of people. My wife

471
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,160
Speaker 1: was studying to be a you know, she was working

472
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 1: as a pharmacist at the time, so she had a

473
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: professional career. I was pursuing advanced degree in theology. We

474
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: knew we had sort of a social structure. We were

475
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: going to be okay, our finances were in order. Like,

476
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 1: we knew this would be hard no matter where it went,

477
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 1: but we felt we had what we needed to actually

478
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: do it. And I think as I've reflected back on that,

479
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: I would say back and say, I can't imagine the

480
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: immensity of the stress and pressure for someone who doesn't

481
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: have those other pieces in mind. Yes, I would also

482
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 1: just be honest and say I think it's a horrible

483
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: way for me to even be thinking through it, because

484
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: you start to start like kind of putting your faith

485
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 1: in the stuff that you have as opposed to recognizing

486
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: that just it's the wrong theological way to think about it.

487
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: It's a factor. Sure God is provided you with these things,

488
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 1: but I think it's a really bad way for us

489
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: to start those conversations. But either way, my personal connection

490
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: with that suggests that we do need to look a

491
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 1: little bit more broadly and think about how we can

492
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:16,680
Speaker 1: support people going through this so they don't have to

493
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: look at their own personal finances, their own personal capacity.

494
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: And is this possible for me personally? It would be

495
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: great if we had like a folk you know, takes

496
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: a village right to sort of support people. And so

497
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,439
Speaker 1: I'm wondering how you how does the Prograce sort of

498
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: framework and your ministry in particular, how does it does

499
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: it create that sort of broader community. What does that

500
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: look like?

501
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: That's a great question. And by the way, you're basically

502
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 2: describing the early Church, so again we have the rich

503
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 2: theology caring for people. So thank you for that so lot,

504
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 2: so much in what you said. So I want to

505
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: I want to put a bookmark in how prograce helps

506
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 2: facilitate those communities for sure. Can I ask you something first,

507
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 2: Can you remember how you felt getting diagnosis for a

508
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 2: pregnancy that was so altered from your wife's and your dreams,

509
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: your even your own reproductive story about yourself. Can you

510
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 2: talk about the feelings that you felt in that time.

511
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. I was completely confused, completely frustrated, completely angry because

512
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 1: and it was a buddy of mine. I called him

513
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 1: up and I kind of told him what was going on,

514
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: and he just told me, he said, this thing sticks

515
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: with me, right, He said, you need to more in

516
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 1: the life of the child that you thought you were

517
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: going to have and embrace the life of the child

518
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 1: that God has given you. And that sort of changed

519
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: everything for me, not just you know, it wasn't just

520
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: advice that I was given that changed that would have

521
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: changed had my son been born with the problem. It

522
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: actually changed the way I thought about my son period. Well,

523
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 1: I think it would like I think I would have

524
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: been like a devil dad who wanted to live vicarious

525
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: through through my son had I not had that early

526
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: experience with it. Yeah, So I think it was a

527
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 1: time just the advice you have to mourn it. There's

528
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: a morning that takes place. It's a deep, deep sorrow

529
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: about what's going on amidst all of the pressure and

530
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: confusion and stress and everything else. So you're kind of

531
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: a big ball of lament at that point.

532
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: Yes, you're a huge ball of emotions. And this is

533
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 2: another limitation of the political debate, is it's not the

534
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: weight of the emotional impact of getting pregnant raising a

535
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 2: child is not talked about enough. And so that's why

536
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: there are all these practical things you touched on this

537
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: deep emotional dark knight of the piece. And we've done

538
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: four bodies of research of women who faced unintended pregnancy. Now,

539
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: these women made all three different choices parenting, adoption, abortion,

540
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 2: either with this pregnancy or other ones you know, in

541
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 2: the study and it was qualitative interviews to really get

542
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 2: to the emotional reality. This doesn't say it's the emotional

543
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: reality for everyone, but these results, and it's been over

544
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 2: ten years, these four different bodies of research, they were

545
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: so consistent that the folks conducting the research were like,

546
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 2: we can say that this is the primary emotional experience

547
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 2: for a lot of people, and those the three emotions

548
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 2: are panic incredible panic. You described it as confusion, but

549
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 2: right wo panic also be Yeah. The second for them

550
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: is isolation. So it's an incredibly isolating experience. Don't feel

551
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 2: like they can tell their support systems, so their parents,

552
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 2: their partner. It's incredibly like I'm alone with the weight

553
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 2: of this. Whether they are or not, it feels that way.

554
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: And then the final is shame. And that's a very

555
00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: identity shattering, almost like I have to mourn the person

556
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 2: I thought I was. I'm no longer that person going forward.

557
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 2: And it's not what people think about, like, oh, that's selfish.

558
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 2: They're not going to be able to do what they

559
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 2: thought they could do about a child. It's an actual

560
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: identity because there is so much shame of a single

561
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: person raising kids or different things in our narrative, we

562
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 2: don't even realize. It's like I didn't think I would

563
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 2: be My life is over. I have to reimagine who

564
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: I am. I have to think if I can provide

565
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: a future for this child, and it all has to

566
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: happen by myself in an incredible emotionally shut down stage

567
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: within a matter of a couple of weeks, and I

568
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: think to hold the reality of that experience and to

569
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: step into that as Jesus did with empathy and compassion

570
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 2: and understanding for what that is. Likee we can pull

571
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: us out of our political sides and say what do

572
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 2: we have as Christians to listen? So that is one

573
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 2: piece of what people who are living out and working

574
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: out the progress framework is a much higher sensitivity to

575
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 2: the reality for people with a lived experience. And the

576
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 2: problem is in politics it can turn into an issue.

577
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 2: We can talk about it like it's an issue, and

578
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 2: the fact of the matter is, you know, it's one

579
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 2: in four women will have an abortion in their lifetime.

580
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: So chances are we're spouting this stuff to someone who

581
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: had this experience directly, or their child did, or their

582
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: partner did, and we're just shutting people out. They can't

583
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: bring this experience because we're talking about it up here

584
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: at the head level instead of living where Jesus does

585
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: with this reality. So I just wanted to point that

586
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: out since you had that experience.

587
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 1: No, it's really helpful and just a clarification on the studies.

588
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: Were they primarily of women, because I could see that

589
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: the emotional response being drastically different between male and female

590
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 1: because no matter how you slice it, I was. I

591
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: was a supporter in that whole thing for nine months,

592
00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 1: I was going to be a supporter. I wasn't feeling

593
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 1: any of that. My wife was. And so I could

594
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,800
Speaker 1: definitely see women responding in it, even almost a deeper

595
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: way because it's happening to them in their own bodies.

596
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: So was the research mostly on women or to look

597
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 1: at women and men?

598
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:37,799
Speaker 2: Great question? So this research was all on women? I

599
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: have another I've been involved in understanding another study that

600
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,879
Speaker 2: did involve men as well. And so two just really

601
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 2: short interesting things about this.

602
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: Yeah.

603
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 2: One is in the study of all women, they didn't

604
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: even mention the partner at all, So even when they

605
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 2: talked about being pregnant, it was almost like they got

606
00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 2: pregnant by themselves. They made the horrible decision themselves. It's

607
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: really heartbreaking. So that's that isolation. Not only is she

608
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: carrying more, she feels like he's it's her, And that's

609
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: this cultural narrative that it's all on the woman. And

610
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 2: so in the studies that the other organization did, the

611
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 2: men are feeling their own version like you said of

612
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: you know, panic, isolation, confusion, and there's this wall then

613
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: because she's feeling like she has to carry it all.

614
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 2: He wants to support her but doesn't know how, and

615
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 2: so in most cases it created a divide between the couple,

616
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 2: which is we don't Again, we don't have a framework.

617
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 2: And there's an essay in the book by a psychologist

618
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: who says, we have no framework for men to process

619
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 2: their grief over reproductive issues, and so they're much slower

620
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 2: to process it, where the women are much faster. And

621
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,319
Speaker 2: so again there's just this divide between the genders that

622
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: I would argue could also be healed by Christ if

623
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: we would just pay attention to the emotional reality. And

624
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: I know it's challenging for a lot of women to

625
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: think about inviting men into this conversation. I get that,

626
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you get that men have done some

627
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: incredibly horrible things around not listening to women or you know,

628
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 2: every time I watch a movie where the woman is

629
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 2: ostracized for the pregnancy and the man is just living

630
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: his life, right, I mean, there's just so much baggage

631
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 2: going on. At the same time, we can respect that

632
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: and hold that and understand when that's hard. I think too.

633
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 2: Truths can be true. It's also true that we won't

634
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 2: see the healing we want as the body of Christ

635
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: unless both genders are welcomed into the conversation. And I

636
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 2: think men can do it with a real sense of

637
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: humility and respect. And you're not taking it personally right now.

638
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 2: I said, it's hard for men. And you're hosting this podcast.

639
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 2: You are modeling exactly what men can do to bring

640
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:54,360
Speaker 2: a healthy framework. You're listening to women. You're wanting to understand.

641
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 2: But we need to be advocating together for this deeper understanding.

642
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 1: No, And I think it's interesting because I mean, even

643
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 1: as my wife is going so she we've had three

644
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: biological children, the second two or twins, and so it's

645
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: always fun when my camera does that. We're just going

646
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 1: to leave that alone. Yeah, AI fun. But we've had

647
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: so we've had you know, she's gone through two pregnancies,

648
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: and I could always escape, Like if it got too stressful,

649
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,040
Speaker 1: I could leave and I got to go to work,

650
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:32,919
Speaker 1: and I you know, I still got to go work

651
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: out or whatever it was. My body wasn't changing the

652
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 1: way hers was, right, and so it was just different.

653
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 1: It was very, very different. And to process some of

654
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: those things, I got to be isolated from it. Even

655
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: if I'm just sleeping in the same bed with her.

656
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: I'm isolated from it. She's got something, you know, growing

657
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 1: inside of her that she's dealing with. So I think,

658
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: you know, overall, when I look at the landscape of

659
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: this relationship between men and women, I get the complexities

660
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 1: of it. I don't know, I'm surely I'm guarantee I'm

661
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,480
Speaker 1: not the one to solve it, but I understand the

662
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: complexity of it, and I could see why it seems

663
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: a lot of times like men maybe being callous about it,

664
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: when really they're probably just trying to figure out how

665
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah, you know, callousness, but.

666
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, anyway to recognize that and to again

667
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: going back to God's design, He designed women to do this.

668
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 2: We are very strong in an amazing way that we

669
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 2: can do it. We do go through a lot, and

670
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 2: he didn't design us to do it alone. So he

671
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 2: designed it to do it within family, within community, and

672
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 2: when that's not there for women. To your earlier point,

673
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 2: what type of community is the Church of Jesus going

674
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: to be? So when you asked about the progress approach

675
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 2: of the progress community, where we have landed is that

676
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: our calling, our mission is incredibly arrow it's to help

677
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 2: Christians have a different paradigm, to think differently, to talk differently.

678
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 2: And then what flows out of that is Christians starting

679
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 2: to engage differently naturally in their family where it comes up,

680
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 2: but wanting to engage more, which is fantastic. We need

681
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,520
Speaker 2: more Christians engaging in the issue, so we partner with

682
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: and refer to trusted direct service organizations who are already

683
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: doing that work. So what I found is there's a

684
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 2: lot of Christians seeking to make our society more just

685
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 2: for pregnant women before, during, and after pregnancy. There's a

686
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 2: lot of people doing that in a lot of different organizations,

687
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: and I was part of one of them. After we

688
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 2: switch the pregnancy organization, I should say that's the end

689
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 2: of the story. We change the entire approach to be

690
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 2: one of listening, advocacy, equal value, no politics, and I

691
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 2: love that type of work, and we work with other

692
00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 2: organizations that do that. They're part of our learning community.

693
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 2: But then we also refer to trusted organizations that we

694
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 2: know are doing this work in a non political, Jesus

695
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 2: centered way, because I believe when we unlock the way

696
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 2: Christians think and talk, we're going to see so many

697
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 2: more Christians wanting to engage, and I want to keep

698
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 2: connecting them to these organizations that are always doing also

699
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 2: always doing that, already doing that great work because our

700
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 2: plate is full with the paradigm shift, and then I

701
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: think the paradigm shift will lead to so much fruit. Again,

702
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 2: I'm a dreamer, so I feel like I can see

703
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 2: all these things that could happen, but I'm not going

704
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 2: to be the one to do them. We're going to

705
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,319
Speaker 2: lock arms with other people and churches as well. We've

706
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 2: had some incredible churches. There was a group meeting at

707
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 2: one church that had the church had a school. This

708
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 2: is when I was at the Pregnancy Organization. We would

709
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 2: have churches run these support groups, which is a great model,

710
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: and there are organizations doing that, but this particular church

711
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 2: wanted to figure out a way to really be with

712
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 2: and for the women, and so they were scholarshipping them

713
00:41:02,239 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 2: to their school, their daycare, and their school. Like what

714
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: do you usually what a unique thing a Christian you know,

715
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 2: a church can do. And that's why it looks different

716
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 2: for every church. But the Prograce framework was actually awakened

717
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,840
Speaker 2: out of having these support groups for women in churches

718
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: of the women we were working with at the pregnancy organization,

719
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 2: watching what was happening as they were welcomed in. So

720
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: the whole dream started with that happening, women being welcomed

721
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 2: and these needs being met. But our calling is way

722
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 2: upstream with hey, let's get the Christians community acting more

723
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,879
Speaker 2: like Jesus, and then those things will flow out of us.

724
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 2: They absolutely will.

725
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I mean, I think it's actually

726
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: the right approach because on some level we had to

727
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: have the up you know, this has to bubble up

728
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: from the bottom and come down from the top, right,

729
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,720
Speaker 1: Like it has to be sort of a multi angle

730
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,719
Speaker 1: kind of thing, because I can envision the conversations you

731
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: have about pro grace with people, and I mean, I'll say,

732
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: even you know, just the comment you made about, you know,

733
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: don't use the right choice language, It's like I hear that,

734
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,840
Speaker 1: and I appreciate it, and I understand what you're saying,

735
00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: and I can see how we could sort of explain

736
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: that sort of deep theological understanding of pregnancy and you know,

737
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,279
Speaker 1: birth and union between man and woman. And then and

738
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: then I sit back and I say, well, it's really

739
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: a deeply sort of ingrained conviction of mine right that

740
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 1: I'm expressing there, And so how you know, I can

741
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 1: only envision the difficulty you have going into someone and saying, hey,

742
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: we've got this new Prograce framework. I can almost see

743
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: some people going, we're already doing that, right, yeah, And

744
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: so how do you what do you find as the

745
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 1: most challenging aspect of your work and you know, give

746
00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: listeners an idea of how they can rethink toward the

747
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 1: Prograce framework. Here's we kind of come to a close.

748
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 2: Now, that's what a loaded question. Wow. And one thing

749
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 2: would be, you know, one difficulty would be being misunderstood

750
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:21,040
Speaker 2: because I wasn't saying with your language change that you

751
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:25,760
Speaker 2: can't hold these convictions. It's more just that's not sacred

752
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,479
Speaker 2: language like that didn't come from the Bible. So it's

753
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: just like, let's just take out all the language that

754
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 2: can be misunderstood and let's communicate our conviction the same way.

755
00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: So that is one challenge is being under misunderstood with

756
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: that and people thinking they have to I'm at that

757
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 2: prograce is asking them to change either their ethical view

758
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 2: on abortion or their political view. We aren't. We're inviting,

759
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: and this is hard for people. There's no framework for this,

760
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: because again it's such a strong mental model. You either

761
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 2: are pro life or you are pro choice. You're with

762
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 2: me or you're against me. There is no mental model

763
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 2: for an invitation to gently lay those down and just

764
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: imagine how would Jesus be interacting if you were here.

765
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 2: That is probably the most difficult thing. And with that,

766
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,800
Speaker 2: I would also say part of our mental model is, oh, great,

767
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: how do I go help other people? You know? This

768
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 2: whole idea of direct service is also a very strong

769
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 2: mental model. There are people who are very close to

770
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 2: me who still think after ten years that prograce works

771
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 2: directly with women experiencing pregnancy, and I can't and I

772
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 2: can't get that mental model, you know, because that is

773
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: what we think is so getting people to understand the

774
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: church matters. What matters is the church acting like Jesus,

775
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 2: that the goal of a pro grace approach is to

776
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 2: look more like Jesus full stop, and for people to

777
00:44:53,960 --> 00:44:57,320
Speaker 2: really trust that well, first to understand why it's important,

778
00:44:57,320 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 2: but to also trust that that we're you know, it's

779
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 2: like do you have a secret. That's kind of why

780
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 2: I just mentioned right choice, because there are progressives or

781
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: people on the left it would hear that and think, oh,

782
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: Prograce has an agenda because she just agreed with them

783
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: that there's a right choice. And it happens on both sides,

784
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 2: right people think there's an agenda for people to really believe. No,

785
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: all that pro Grace is doing is inviting people into

786
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,279
Speaker 2: a space where we can ask how can we be

787
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: more like Jesus. It does take people a while to

788
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: get it, to trust us, to kind of process it.

789
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:31,719
Speaker 2: And so that's why I wrote a book, was to

790
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 2: have a longer form and we have a course as well,

791
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,640
Speaker 2: because it is hard. Even we've had even a great conversation,

792
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 2: I'm sure people still have questions. So yeah, I just

793
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 2: have to be patient. I'm not patient. That's the hardest

794
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 2: thing about my work is I have to trust that

795
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: it's God working. And if we just keep saying this

796
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 2: over and over, people do eventually say, oh my gosh,

797
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 2: I've been waiting for this, thank you, But it can

798
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 2: sometimes take a while.

799
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: So but I think it's sort of what you're talking

800
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 1: about resonates I did. I mentioned I did a lot

801
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 1: of work on politics over the last couple of years,

802
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: and one of the things that I had trouble with

803
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: is sort of what you're describing. And people would hear

804
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,919
Speaker 1: me talking about, look, we need to back this up,

805
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: nest it underneath our vocation to point to and glorify God,

806
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,240
Speaker 1: and that may mean that we set down our political tools,

807
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 1: occasionally exercise restraint, you know, all these different things. People

808
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: heard me saying, don't participate in politics, right, but that

809
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: wasn't what I was saying. And so when I was

810
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: sort of had a I don't. I wouldn't call it

811
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,879
Speaker 1: a debate, but it was kind of a debate, and

812
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: the gentleman across the table was saying, you know, you're

813
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: if you're saying you shouldn't participate in politics, that's crazy.

814
00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 1: And I just said, look, I go look, my wife

815
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 1: and I just adopted. Have you adopted? He's kind of

816
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 1: like no, And I'm like, I'm not sitting here telling

817
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: you you should. I'm just not. I wouldn't. That's crazy,

818
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: So why are you doing it to me?

819
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:57,479
Speaker 2: Wow?

820
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: Like there's an individual discernment that we have to go

821
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,359
Speaker 1: through on some of these things. And I think that's

822
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: really part of what you're saying, is like, let's get

823
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: to that point where we can reimagine things and we

824
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: don't have to be red or blue, right, Like, let's

825
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: just pull it back and now we're discerning. Now we

826
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: can come up with maybe different actions that we can't

827
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 1: see right now because we're so blinded. You know, we're

828
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: standing behind the elephant or the donkey and we just

829
00:47:23,640 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: can't see it exactly exactly.

830
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 2: Yes, And the thing that the elephant the donkey keep

831
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 2: us from from talking about is this Amago Day that

832
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 2: Christians could be united around. But if we keep thinking

833
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: that our brother and sister who's on the other side

834
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 2: is either anti child or anti woman, and we don't

835
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: start extending the benefit of the doubt that you know,

836
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 2: every thoughtful Christian values the Imago Day and everyone you know,

837
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: that's the problem here, is the actual not just that

838
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 2: it's politics. It's the way the politics are framed up

839
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 2: keep us from understanding each other and make us think

840
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:01,680
Speaker 2: the worst about each other, when again, I really do

841
00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: believe like you and I have the same commitment to

842
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: the Imago Day. We don't have to tell each other

843
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 2: how we vote. There's so much that we can I

844
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: think this is what we're just trying to call people into.

845
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: It's not just an invitation to be wishy washy. There's

846
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:18,720
Speaker 2: this there's these core theological tenants that run through the middle,

847
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,840
Speaker 2: but it's asking God to be bigger. We're trying to

848
00:48:22,880 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 2: make God bigger into how he could creatively help us

849
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 2: solve some of these problems. To your point, acting like

850
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: a Christian first, not a RHETORICU. So yeah, yeah, I

851
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: love that great discipleship will.

852
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 1: The discipleship will open up opportunities for us. And I

853
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,520
Speaker 1: always go to that verse in Ephesians. God can do

854
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,359
Speaker 1: abundantly more than we could ever ask or think. That's

855
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 1: what I think discipleship opens up for us. It opens

856
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: us up to the opportunities God provides for us to

857
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,320
Speaker 1: participate in building His kingdom in ways we can never

858
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: ask or think.

859
00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 2: Amen. And it's it's through His power that works within us.

860
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 2: So there's this partnership that he's calling us into. It's

861
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 2: beautiful and it's actually how I close the book that

862
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:09,719
Speaker 2: passage from the message, So I love it too. That

863
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,320
Speaker 2: is the dream. Yeah, we're on the same page.

864
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 1: Well, Angela, this has been great. We're kind of up

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00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,160
Speaker 1: on time. I want to respect your time. Give people

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00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: where they can find the book and also learn about prograce.

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Speaker 1: Your ministry.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely So. Prograce is at prograce dot org and the

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00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 2: book is there. It's also on Amazon, and I will

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00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 2: just say if you are an Amazon purchaser, that's the

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00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 2: only way you can review it is it people purchase it.

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00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 2: So if people want to like get exposed to more

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00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 2: people and they're thinking about buying it, you can buy

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00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: it there and review it. But go to Prograce for

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00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 2: different ways you can enter the conversation because we have

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00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,799
Speaker 2: a lot of different resources. Not everyone wants to take

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00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 2: a course or read a book, but there's a way

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00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:53,360
Speaker 2: to start the conversation wherever you're at, wherever your curiosity

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00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: level is. So thank you.

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00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 1: I'll include those in the show notes. And just a

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00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 1: reminder for everybody. I want you to go to Amazon

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00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: and review the book after you've read it. But I

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00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: also want you to purchase this off IVP. They give

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00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: us a twenty percent discount and so you can use

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00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 1: the code in the in the link, So buy it

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00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: off iv Press and then head over to Amazon and

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00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 1: give it a review.

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00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have every good Reads, so you can go

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00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 2: to good Reads without reading it buy it from I

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00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 2: love IVP. I didn't realize they did that, so.

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00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 1: Yay, Yeah, yeah, they're really cool with that. It's been

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00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:28,280
Speaker 1: awesome to have IVP authors on and so But anyway, Angela,

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00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate you

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00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 1: coming on talking about this, appreciate your ministry a great deal,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just excited to see what the future holds

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Speaker 1: for you.

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Speaker 2: So thanks for being Thanks James, I love what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: All right, everybody, We'll take care and we'll see you

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Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian. Take care everyone.

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Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the

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00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on

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00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,839
Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

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00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.

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Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.