1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,120 Speaker 2: You are listening to The Becket Cook Show with your host, 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 2: Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry, 4 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 2: visit his website at Beckettcook dot com. To help support 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 2: the podcast, visit Patreon dot com slash the Beckett Cook Show. 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: Please consider subscribing to the podcast and leaving a five 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: star rating. 8 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, welcome to the show. Today. 9 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 3: I have a special guest, Elizabeth Wanting, and she has 10 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 3: an amazing story of how God rescued her out of 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 3: a lesbian life and now she's married to a man. 12 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 3: Her story is intriguing and she's also the co founder 13 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 3: of the Change Movement but first award from our sponsor. 14 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 3: So please welcome Elizabeth Wanning. 15 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 4: And it's a pleasure to join you. I'm so excited, Beckett. 16 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: It's good to have you on. 17 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 3: So you have a fascinating story, as I've read some 18 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 3: of the notes, or all of them actually, but so 19 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 3: talk about you. 20 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: You where did you grow up? 21 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 4: I grew up in Illinois in the Midwest. 22 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 3: And yeah, you say that you didn't feel you never 23 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 3: really felt a sense of belonging. 24 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: What what happened? 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 4: Oh? 26 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 3: Wow? 27 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 4: Well, you know, I so growing up I maybe had it. 28 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:44,679 Speaker 1: I had. 29 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 4: First of all, I guess I should say that I 30 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 4: had a perfectly healthy family life. My parents were upper 31 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 4: middle class, both of them were well educated. Father was 32 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 4: in the corporate world. I didn't have any kind of 33 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 4: abuses that I know of, at least not from my 34 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 4: family life or my family upbringing. But early on, you know, 35 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 4: there was question of whether or not I was autistic. 36 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 4: So I had kind of some relational difficulties, and that 37 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 4: later in my life, when I was in my twenties, 38 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 4: I was diagnosed diagnosed with bipolar disorder. And so the 39 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 4: beginnings of that were really in my early childhood and adolescence, 40 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 4: and so but feeling other than you know, I'm a 41 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 4: little bit nerdy as well, and so you know, typical 42 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 4: kid feeling different then. But then also probably you can 43 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 4: relate to some attachment distress with my parents, and so 44 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 4: all of that leaves a kid feeling distressed. And I mean, 45 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 4: if you want to start in my childhood with my story, 46 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 4: then in my teens, I met a young woman at 47 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 4: a church event. So I grew up in the pc USA, 48 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 4: the Presbyterian Church, and met her in a in a 49 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 4: church event, and we really clicked, really saw I to 50 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 4: eye and and went deep fast. And she was also 51 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 4: quite bright, and so the two of us became very 52 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 4: very close, and I I would say, we both began 53 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 4: questioning our sexuality together, you know, so we would we 54 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 4: would both read orsolotly go in for example, and share 55 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 4: what we were reading and thinking and feeling and and 56 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 4: I mean, ultimately I fell in love with her. She 57 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 4: was the deepest connection I'd ever had with somebody. 58 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: But through college And what did your parent did your parents? 59 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: Were your parents aware of this? 60 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: No? 61 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 4: Sure, you know, not at all, I would say, you know. 62 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 4: I mean, I every teen has a secret life, I think, 63 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 4: but I definitely was not. I was never never close 64 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 4: to my parents. Maybe closer to my father, but he 65 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 4: had less time. So I was never really c to 66 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 4: either of my parents. When I was seventeen, I moved 67 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 4: to Europe and started college. And so I've always been 68 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 4: very independent. I was raised my mother was a feminist. 69 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 4: I was raised to be an independent woman, and both 70 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 4: my parents encouraged that and encouraged a lot of education 71 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 4: and really hoped that I would be, you know, the 72 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 4: quintessential professional woman according to maybe seventies or eighties feminism 73 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 4: and so that was the trajectory of my life. And yeah, 74 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 4: so you know, I left my home when I was 75 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 4: just graduating from high school at seventeen and really never 76 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 4: never looked back, if you will, until I was in 77 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 4: my late twenties when I really needed my parents' help 78 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 4: and support. 79 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 3: And the you got at some point you got you 80 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 3: married a man, right when was that? 81 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, so you know I came back from Europe 82 00:05:08,080 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 4: and went to college in my undergrad years, and I 83 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 4: would say, even though I had been questioning my sexuality, 84 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 4: I really didn't know where to categorize my affections towards 85 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 4: towards my close friend and then also other women, you know. 86 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,840 Speaker 4: And this was in you know, late eighties, early nineties, 87 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 4: not to date myself, but I was. I was pretty 88 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 4: isolated and naive. I didn't have much access to the 89 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 4: LGBT world. Even in college. Really it was very I 90 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 4: went to a Christian college, Westminster, and so it was 91 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 4: very kind of uh secret, those kinds of things, And 92 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 4: so I was doing everything I was supposed to be doing. 93 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 4: Got married to a man briefly out of right out 94 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 4: of college, but then we really weren't married for too long, 95 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 4: be for I started really struggling with mental illness, and 96 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 4: there are a lot of There are a lot of 97 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 4: reasons compounding that struggle. When I look when I, you know, 98 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 4: we were looking twenty twenty hindsight right, looking at all 99 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 4: of the things in our lives. But at the time 100 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 4: I reasoned that a large part of my emotional instability 101 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 4: was because I was truly gay and and this was 102 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 4: causing me harm. And so I kind of went into 103 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 4: the hospital and coming out of the hospital, left him 104 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 4: and came out. At that time, I had moved from 105 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 4: the Midwest California and was living in central California and 106 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 4: came out and joined you know, kind of moved into 107 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:53,839 Speaker 4: a metropolitan LGBT neighborhood and started living that in that world. 108 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 4: And I would say, my experience is there for the 109 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 4: next ten years really kept me alat because now my 110 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 4: experiences with mental illness really became full blown, if you will, 111 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 4: really struggled with instability mentally. I had started, I had 112 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 4: headed in the trajectory of graduate school, but really couldn't 113 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:23,119 Speaker 4: couldn't follow through with that because of mental illness. And 114 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 4: by the time I hit my late twenties, I couldn't 115 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 4: really live independently. So I ended up moving back to 116 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 4: the Midwest, moving in with my parents, and spent a 117 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 4: couple of years really trying to become stable on medication. So, 118 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 4: you know, I don't know if someone with bipolar type 119 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 4: one has a lot of I was on a lot 120 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 4: of medication for stability and then in and out of 121 00:07:55,000 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 4: mental hospitals, and in that season, then started thinking, well, 122 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 4: I had gotten married and disrupted my plan to enter 123 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 4: grad school. What if I followed through with grad school 124 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 4: and tried to regroup kind of rebuild my life. What 125 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 4: if all of that was part of what was making 126 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 4: me so mentally unstable. So I started in seminary. I 127 00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 4: went to seminary openly gay at a pc USA seminary. 128 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 3: So the seminary was gay affirming. Basically it was a 129 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 3: liberal seminary. 130 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 4: The pc USA has been affirming for a long time. 131 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 4: But so I went to seminary. But I was one 132 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 4: of half a dozen or a dozen students seminary students 133 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 4: who were openly gay, and so it wasn't like it 134 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:53,319 Speaker 4: was very uncommon. So this was around two thousand when 135 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 4: I entered, it was very uncommon, and so I was 136 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 4: I was accepted into the seminary, and I and my 137 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 4: seminary friends were really trying to push the presbytery towards 138 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 4: embrace of LGBT ideology. So it's very postmodern. 139 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 3: And but this is this is a this is a 140 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 3: this is a perfect time to ask this kind of 141 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,320 Speaker 3: question because it's rare to get someone who who was 142 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 3: in your situation. 143 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 1: So because I'm always fascinated by this, Like, so, why. 144 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: Why did you were you pursuing seminary and pursuing a 145 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 3: degree in seminary and I guess you were obviously you 146 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 3: were self professed Christian? Right, yeah, we'll be right back 147 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:47,840 Speaker 3: after this short break. 148 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: Were you were you raised a Christian? 149 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,720 Speaker 4: M hmm, yeah, And so. 150 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 3: Why why was like why would you what did you 151 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 3: think the what did you think about the Bible and 152 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 3: what it had to say say about homosexuality? Did you 153 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 3: just completely reject it out of hand or what were 154 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 3: your thoughts on that? 155 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 4: For me, you know, at the time, I began looking 156 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,800 Speaker 4: at scripture as in, Okay, here's a population that that 157 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 4: really exists in the modern era but didn't exist in 158 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 4: ancient time. Not that the experience of same sex sexuality 159 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 4: or the behavior wasn't in scripture, but the subculture didn't exist, 160 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 4: and so then how how then do we read the 161 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 4: love of God in addressing this this population, this people 162 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 4: group and that that then you know, when you add 163 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 4: kind of a postmodern hermeneutic there, then you start looking 164 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 4: at it through the lens of of sexual behavior in scripture. 165 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 4: And I, you know, personally, and I would say my 166 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 4: fellow seminarians, we were most interested in making a way 167 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 4: for LGBT identifying people to be able to come into 168 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 4: the church. The arguments over can you change or can 169 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 4: you not? From my perspective, you know you can't change, 170 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 4: And why would you God created you that way that 171 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 4: you can bless the Lord as a gay person, So 172 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 4: why would I even head in that direction? And then 173 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 4: reading out of scripture is geating really the key so 174 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 4: called claw passages as either ritualized or irrelevant to the 175 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 4: modern day experience of love in the gay community. And 176 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 4: that's how I looked at it at the time. And 177 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 4: so I was just trying to open doors for LGBT 178 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 4: identifying people to come into church to meet the Lord, 179 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 4: to worship God. And that necessarily meant changing the church, 180 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 4: not since the population couldn't change scripture didn't speak to that, 181 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 4: so the church had to had to change, and that 182 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 4: was the perspective that I had at the time. 183 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 3: And so again with seminary, just this is a kind 184 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 3: of a broad question, but why did you even consider 185 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 3: pursuing seminary as a grad student rather than say, law 186 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 3: school or you know, some other profession like what drew 187 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:25,040 Speaker 3: you to seminary? 188 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 4: Well, I had always been, always been passionate about it, 189 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 4: about theology. So you know, I don't in the Presbyterian Church. 190 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 4: You when you reach kind of middle school age, you 191 00:12:40,480 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 4: go through a communicants process and express make an open 192 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 4: expression of faith to the board of elders. Or at 193 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,719 Speaker 4: least that was the setting I was raised in. And 194 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 4: so even at eleven, twelve thirteen, I was fascinated by 195 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 4: the things of God, fascinated by scripture, fascinated by Church 196 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 4: history and its role in Western civilization. And so that 197 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 4: passion for church history and that passion for understanding God 198 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 4: and the things of God had been in my life. 199 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 4: But what was missing really was any there were two 200 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 4: key things missing. There. There was no comprehension of say 201 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 4: union with Christ. That was never really clearly articulated to me. 202 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 4: Like union with Christ that could be transformative. Nothing relational 203 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,560 Speaker 4: about interaction with God could be possible. Like my sense 204 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 4: of God was that he was beyond reach, transcendent, almost deistic. 205 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, was my faith. 206 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 4: And then you know, and but then like when I 207 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,760 Speaker 4: went to I went to university in England at Durham 208 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 4: University and focused on focused on the Middle Ages, and 209 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 4: kind of my key study there was on the evangelism 210 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 4: of Scandinavia through their their kind of do what their 211 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 4: invasion of England. So actually Scandinavia was evangelized by England 212 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 4: and its invasion process, and so I studied that and 213 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 4: and so just the process of the power of God 214 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 4: in civilization was fascinating to me. And I never read 215 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 4: myself out of it, even though I experienced what I experienced. 216 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 4: And maybe part of that was because I was isolated 217 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 4: from from alternative views. I guess I could say, you know, 218 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:43,560 Speaker 4: I did, I didn't, I wouldn't have done. I was 219 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 4: never invited to do a plane reading of scripture that 220 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 4: that would have excluded a gay identifying person m hm. 221 00:14:52,000 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 4: And so so then uh, you know, yeah, so I 222 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 4: and even when I was in seminary, every week we 223 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 4: went into the gay community, and we might even go 224 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 4: into the gay bar and ship and pray with and 225 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 4: share the Gospel with people. But then we would also 226 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 4: go into the gay bar and have drinks and and 227 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 4: you know, I walked in the gay pride parades and 228 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 4: other things I didn't see. I literally, like I literally 229 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 4: could not see the debauchery. I couldn't see. 230 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: The disconnect. 231 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 4: I couldn't. I really couldn't. It wasn't years later after 232 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 4: I repented and the Lord met me, which we'll talk 233 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 4: about maybe in a minute, that I went back to 234 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 4: that community and looked around and just was astonished at 235 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 4: the places I hung out and enjoyed and laughed at 236 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 4: and partook and it really crazy, really maybe you know, 237 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 4: really crazy. 238 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 3: Well when you were in so, when you were in 239 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 3: seminary or after that, were you involved in romantic relationships 240 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 3: with women or were you what was that? 241 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:11,640 Speaker 4: Like I would typically enter so I had serial relationships 242 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 4: with women. I you know, I struggled to create long 243 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 4: term relationships, but so I would have many short term 244 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 4: relationships with women, dated women a lot. You know. I 245 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 4: can also say, though the fellowship that I had in 246 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 4: the midst of in seminary, even beyond even before that 247 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 4: in the gay community. Worse, they felt so life giving 248 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 4: to me. You know, they really captured me from, really 249 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 4: rescued me from many times. And so all during my twenties, 250 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 4: I really I can't understate how much I struggled. And 251 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 4: then going to seminary, I was very hopeful that I 252 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 4: would you know, that I would gain the hope that 253 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 4: I needed for my future. But I really didn't. And 254 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 4: and so in my final seminary, I spent a month 255 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 4: in a mental hospital, and really upon graduating, I really couldn't. 256 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:12,160 Speaker 4: I really didn't feel like I would live very much longer. 257 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:17,640 Speaker 4: So I would struggle with kind of psychotic episodes where 258 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 4: I would kind of break from I would be unaware 259 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 4: of my reality, and so it was just very it 260 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 4: was a very distressing time for me. But then when 261 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 4: I graduated from seminary, you know, for a period I 262 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 4: lived at home, but then I was given afforded the 263 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 4: opportunity to move in with my elderly grandmother, who had 264 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 4: been a pillar in my life, incredible woman, and I 265 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 4: moved in with her when she was in her mid nineties. Wow, 266 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 4: and you know, she was starting to experience dementia and 267 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 4: I will say that we had many meaningful times at 268 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 4: three am in the morning, because I would struggle to 269 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 4: sleep in that season. And but while I was there, 270 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 4: so I moved from this major metropolitan area into this 271 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 4: rural community, little bitty town, and started reaching out to 272 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 4: the local ministers, local pastors, the ministerial alliance, and found 273 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,439 Speaker 4: a part time job at a Presbyterian church doing youth ministry. 274 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 4: And was, yeah, okay, and how was you know, although 275 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 4: I would say I was not, you could look at 276 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 4: me and no, I mean at the time, and I 277 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:39,880 Speaker 4: have short hair now, but at the time, I shaved 278 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 4: my head, and I had piercings, and I have a 279 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 4: few tattoos, and so I wasn't trying to hide my 280 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 4: affiliation with feminist lesbians. But at the same time, you know, 281 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 4: I mean, I didn't make I didn't make it a 282 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 4: big deal. Well, I wasn't trying to force LGBT activists 283 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 4: on anybody, And so you could look at me and 284 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 4: see or you could ask, but I wasn't going to 285 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 4: talk about it otherwise. And so yeah, but I was 286 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 4: in the probably the closest gay bar was about sixty 287 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 4: miles from that community. So it wasn't like I had 288 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,919 Speaker 4: fellowship with a bunch of gay people nearby. So I 289 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 4: started making my way and I ended up meeting a 290 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 4: youth pastor who had was part of a ministry that 291 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 4: was also kind of doing outreach in the community, and 292 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 4: it was pretty it was growing and successful, and he 293 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 4: invited me to attend. You know, I was really interested 294 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 4: because in my PCUSA setting, I had kind of the 295 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,680 Speaker 4: doctors and lawyers of the region, you know, that that 296 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 4: kind of student So they were all college bound students 297 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,360 Speaker 4: and the more affluent from the community that I was in. 298 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 4: But he was doing ministry to a lot of homeless 299 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 4: kids or many of them were abused, definitely from broken families, impoverished, 300 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 4: and and so his ministry was radically different than mine 301 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 4: in that way. So I was very curious about what 302 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 4: they were doing. And he was Pentecostal, but I didn't 303 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:21,160 Speaker 4: really I knew that, but it really I really didn't care. 304 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:25,360 Speaker 4: I was very curious, and so I showed up one 305 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 4: night they had been so they had services on Thursday 306 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 4: night and Saturday nights. So I showed up on a 307 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,880 Speaker 4: Thursday night, and you know, they just to give give 308 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 4: kind of a visual they met in in an empty, 309 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 4: kind of dilapidated Chevrolet dealership showroom, and it was it 310 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 4: was it had been downtown in this little tiny city. 311 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 4: It wasn't like a an industrial situation. 312 00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:58,080 Speaker 2: This. 313 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 4: I think the dealership maybe had been open in the fifties. 314 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 4: So I mean it was the green asbestos tiles on 315 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 4: the floor and things, and they were given it for free. 316 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 4: And then they had a bunch of those aluminum fold 317 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 4: up chairs kind of set set in place, and their 318 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 4: worship leader. They played contemporary music, which I was not 319 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 4: comfortable with. You know, I did not know any Christian 320 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 4: contemporary music. I was a dignified him singing Presbyterian, and 321 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 4: and so they're worship leader. She she had a five 322 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 4: disc CD player and she would spend the week praying 323 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 4: and she would put together a playlist on one of 324 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 4: those CDs and then she'd have these other CDs on 325 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 4: hand and she would start playing the music, and then 326 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 4: whatever it was that was causing the spirit to move, 327 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,560 Speaker 4: she would kind of stay with that topic or that 328 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 4: that you know, kind of theme in the music. And 329 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 4: so she had a really a really interesting worship said. 330 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 4: I began to realize later, but this first night, you know, 331 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:09,400 Speaker 4: it's just a recorded just recorded music, and they were 332 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 4: worshiping the Lord, and the Holy Spirit entered in and 333 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 4: I always like to say it was it was a 334 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 4: Presbyterian's worst nightmare. I mean it was kids falling down. 335 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 4: Some kids were laughing and running around. Others had fallen down. 336 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 4: Others were, you know, speaking. I came to realize later 337 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 4: we're speaking in tongues. They had received their their spiritual 338 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 4: prayer language. And so it was all it was. It 339 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 4: was chaotic and for me terrifying, like I'd never seen 340 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 4: anything like that. And it was all spontaneous. So the 341 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 4: the two senior leaders were both twenty one year old 342 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 4: kids newly married. And then you know, my friend who 343 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 4: had invited me, he was thirty five or thirty three, 344 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 4: and so it wasn't no one going around touching anybody. 345 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 4: This was all just spontaneously happening. And a seventeen year 346 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 4: old boy approached me and he said to me, I 347 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,959 Speaker 4: believe I have a word from the Lord for you, 348 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 4: So just to just to once again give you the 349 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 4: optics of this, I don't I don't think there was 350 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,359 Speaker 4: a gay woman for miles, and I don't know if 351 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 4: he'd ever met a gay woman, and he definitely could 352 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 4: see that I had something else going on, and so 353 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 4: he had He was very courageous walking up to me 354 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 4: as a visitor, you know, and and he proceeded to 355 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 4: tell me about something I had been praying about for years, 356 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 4: and I did not know what to do with that. 357 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 4: I didn't know how to respond or even what was happening. 358 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 4: And I remember thinking, in that moment, does God know 359 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 4: me specifically? And if he does, I have no idea 360 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 4: who he is. And that caused me to you know, 361 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 4: I didn't. I didn't know how to categorize or respond 362 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 4: to what had happened, and I didn't know who to 363 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 4: turn to for advice. And so I just went out 364 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 4: and I bought a new Bible, and I began highlighting 365 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 4: every passage in scripture where God describes himself and or 366 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 4: he's explicitly described right, trying to understand who, who or 367 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,400 Speaker 4: what had connected with me in that setting. 368 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 3: Well, okay, so can we go back to the seventeen 369 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 3: year old giving you a word? Can you tell us 370 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 3: what he said to you? 371 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 4: I'd rather not do that, but I mean he you know, 372 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 4: he basically said, well, I can say one of the 373 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 4: things that he said to me. He said, the Lord 374 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 4: will remove all doubt. And for me, you know, going 375 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 4: through seminary and going through seminary and I just go 376 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 4: through seminary and survive, but I got worse. So I 377 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 4: had all these years of praying that I would get 378 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 4: healing or praying that I would get freedom, or hope 379 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 4: that Christian faith would somehow bring peace in my life. 380 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 4: And that definitely caused a lot of bitterness towards the Lord. 381 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 4: But then also a lot of question of maybe, uh, 382 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 4: maybe Christian faith is just another ideology and uh, you know, 383 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 4: and and that fear even you know, if you can 384 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 4: imagine going into the ministry and hoping to become someday 385 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 4: and ordained pastor in a church, but then doubting that 386 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 4: God exists, it was a it was a it was 387 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 4: a deep fear of mine and so then and so 388 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,199 Speaker 4: then you know, for him to call that out so 389 00:25:54,440 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 4: directly and profoundly for me, I was really really it 390 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 4: was so significant. But then the invitation was to discover 391 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 4: that He was real. And what came out of that season, 392 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 4: so I, you know, basically started in Genesis and read 393 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 4: from cover to cover and began getting this picture of 394 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 4: God that was profoundly different than I had imagined, and 395 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 4: more beautiful, more compassionate, more full of love, more relational 396 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 4: than I could have thought, and at the same time 397 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 4: felt pursued by God, felt like He was mysteriously powerfully 398 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 4: meeting me and particularly, you know, particularly able to you know, 399 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 4: I would have these moments of every rumination, and He 400 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 4: would be able to meet me in those spaces and 401 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 4: draw me into kind of places of safety or places 402 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 4: of peace that I had never experience before. And so 403 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 4: I began developing a kind of a prayer life, not 404 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 4: an intercessory life, and an adoration of God and prayer. 405 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 4: And meanwhile, meanwhile also doing simply a plane reading a scripture. 406 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 4: So going from my postmodern hermeneutic to you know, to 407 00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 4: simply a plane reading maybe even a kind of an 408 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 4: evangelical hermeneutic if you will, historical gram grammatical approach to scripture, 409 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 4: which is what I was surrounded by, And then continued 410 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 4: going just visiting all these Pentecostal churches kind of realized, well, 411 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 4: maybe God, if God is alive, If God is alive, 412 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 4: and he knows me, these people are claiming they experience 413 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 4: and interact with God. I meanwhile, I'm reading Scripture and thinking, 414 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 4: this picture of God that I'm getting is so profound. 415 00:27:55,880 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 4: If I could have if I could have can union 416 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 4: with God, fellowship with God, I would have purpose in 417 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,679 Speaker 4: my life. I would have meaning in my life, but 418 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 4: especially I would have value. And that element of being 419 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 4: connected to God and feeling his transcendent beauty and being 420 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 4: connected to that hit something in me that I had 421 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 4: never experienced before, this sense of worth, and so I 422 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 4: was so hungry to reach for more of the love 423 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 4: of God. So I would go to these holiness Pentecostal churches, 424 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 4: you know, walking in with my men's clothes and shaved head, 425 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 4: and you'd have these women with their pentecostal hairdoos, you know, 426 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 4: long shirts and you know. And no one ever said, hey, 427 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 4: you know, you need to repent. They just saw that 428 00:28:53,560 --> 00:29:01,680 Speaker 4: I was curious and hungry for God, and I didn't 429 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 4: want to fall down, but I wanted to see other 430 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 4: people fall down. I wanted to see, you know, some 431 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 4: manifestation of God. And then also then though, my reading 432 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 4: of Scripture caused me to begin questioning what I had 433 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 4: believed in seminary, what I had been taught my whole 434 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 4: life about the nature of womanhood, you know that I 435 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 4: had so strongly rejected as a young adult, What did 436 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 4: it mean to be a woman? What did it mean 437 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,960 Speaker 4: to be a woman in an association with men? If 438 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 4: I wanted to be more deeply connected to God, then 439 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 4: that meant to me that I needed to align my 440 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 4: faith with his, and I needed to to begin align aligning, 441 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 4: you know, my values with his. And somehow me as 442 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 4: a woman didn't. What I read in scripture didn't match 443 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 4: what I had believed. And so that caused me to 444 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 4: begin questioning why I believed what I believed and who 445 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 4: I thought myself to be. And that process made me 446 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 4: realize I had rejected womanhood and why was that? And 447 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 4: so in prayer began going began asking God, Okay, why 448 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:17,160 Speaker 4: am I the way I am? And began getting very 449 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 4: very deep clarity on beliefs I had held wrong, beliefs 450 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 4: that I had formed about being a woman, about embracing 451 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 4: myself as a woman, what it meant to be a 452 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,440 Speaker 4: woman of God in fellowship with men, even in family 453 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 4: and in marriage. And of course, then as I'm going 454 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 4: down there that rabbit hole, I began recognizing that queer 455 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 4: theology as I had embraced it seemed to be largely patristic. 456 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 4: So I'm looking at Jonathan David or I'm questioning you know, 457 00:30:53,800 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 4: Jesus's interactions maybe with the apostles, God forbid, but even 458 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 4: you know, that's the way I looked at Scripture. It 459 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 4: was like, oh, you could read into the sexualization of relationships, 460 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 4: but you really couldn't do that among the women represented 461 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 4: in Scripture. So that meant that I began questioning how 462 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,720 Speaker 4: I had formed the theology that I had, and how 463 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 4: dominated it was, dominating it was, or how dominated it 464 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 4: was by male perspectives, and that also, you know, I 465 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 4: think differently about all of it today, but at the 466 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 4: time I ended up completely deconstructing feminist and queer theology 467 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 4: because it didn't allow me entry into the place that 468 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 4: I believed scripture could take me. And all of that 469 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,400 Speaker 4: was key. That was the beginning of my repentance process. 470 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 4: But then as I repented, then, as you can imagine, 471 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 4: all of my gay and lesbian, all my queer peers, 472 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 4: they definitely thought I had gone off the rail. And 473 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 4: so now you know, they're believing I've entered a cult 474 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 4: or you know, you're you need to stop, because you 475 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 4: know at some point you'll come back to the truth 476 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 4: of who you are. You know. Meanwhile, you know, it 477 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 4: wasn't as much, it wasn't so much that my sexual 478 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 4: desires were changing. At that point, I really didn't care. 479 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 4: I was more interested in connecting more deeply with God 480 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 4: than I was about changing any behavior. And you know, 481 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 4: even my moment, that first moment with that seventeen year 482 00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 4: old boy, the most important issue wasn't my sexual behavior. 483 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 4: It was my faith and the gravity of claiming a 484 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 4: role in the church when I actually didn't believe. And 485 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 4: you know, but then ultimately it had come down to 486 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 4: my sexualization, of intimacy with women and all of that, 487 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 4: but not at the beginning. And so you know, ultimately 488 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 4: I met a man who was really began and in 489 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 4: the beginning just as a sounding board and kind of 490 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 4: discipled me into better understanding of spirituality and ultimately began 491 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 4: experiencing affections for him that even though I had been 492 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,320 Speaker 4: married before, I had classified all of that as a 493 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 4: big mistake, a big harmful mistake that had happened in 494 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 4: my life, right, and so I you know, just kind 495 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 4: of pushed that put that in a box and said, 496 00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 4: that's not the truth of who I am. So then 497 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 4: I started developing affection for this man, and that was 498 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 4: kind of the that was the card that broke everything, really, 499 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 4: you know, everything started tumbling down when I realized that 500 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 4: I actually, you know, was falling in love with him, 501 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 4: had deep feelings and affections for him. And what did 502 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 4: that mean in the context of queer theology and feminist 503 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 4: theology and where I was headed. And so I really 504 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 4: went through an incredible period of deconstruction and and as 505 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 4: that happened, as it was all falling apart, my mental 506 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:17,439 Speaker 4: health improved. And so then I married my husband. We've 507 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 4: been married for twenty one years now. 508 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 3: And I was he a part of that church that 509 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,280 Speaker 3: you were that you were attending. 510 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, so there was it. 511 00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 3: When So tell tell me, like when was the kind 512 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 3: of transition from death to life? 513 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: Like when when was when were you born again? Like 514 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: how did that kind of manifest itself to you? 515 00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 4: Well, let's say, you know, I had this experience of 516 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 4: Jesus and then so that was in the fall of 517 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 4: two thousand and three when things started shifting from me 518 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,799 Speaker 4: and I started kind of pursuing pursuing God differently than 519 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 4: I had ever experienced. I ended up, you know, I 520 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 4: continued for a couple of months, two or three months 521 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 4: after that, working at this Presbyterian church, but then resigned 522 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 4: from there because now everything was I was very confused, 523 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 4: and so it was a two year process of rethinking 524 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:26,040 Speaker 4: everything and then at you know, then getting kind of 525 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 4: acknowledging my affections for Doug. We got married in two 526 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 4: thousand and five, so very shortly after, but I can 527 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 4: say that that was kind of the beginning of the 528 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 4: beginning for me at the time. It was it was 529 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 4: essential to my to my well being, really because in 530 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 4: the context of my marriage, all my questions about what 531 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 4: it meant to be a woman and what a woman's 532 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 4: role was or relationship was in uh in concert with 533 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,640 Speaker 4: a man became more and more clear, and I began 534 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,560 Speaker 4: getting a stronger and stronger sense of my identity because 535 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 4: of my husband. And and then I also had to 536 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 4: acknowledge the role that childhood sexual abuse had played in 537 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 4: my life. And and so I had been molested as 538 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 4: a very young child, and then through teenage years had 539 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 4: sexually abusive experiences with men, and I, you know, you 540 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,800 Speaker 4: end up putting all of that in a box and 541 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,359 Speaker 4: and forgetting all that exists when you come out. And 542 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:40,879 Speaker 4: so are. 543 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: You aware Were you aware of the sexual abuse when 544 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: you were younger? 545 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 4: No, that didn't happen until until five or so years later. 546 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 4: So when I had the memory of it, but I 547 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 4: really didn't understand what what any of it was. M 548 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 4: that's a longer story. But Doug was able to, in 549 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 4: the context of our marriage, to help me navigate and 550 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,720 Speaker 4: walk through a lot of that pain and had grace 551 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 4: to do that in a way that I don't think, 552 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,479 Speaker 4: you know, it was profoundly the right way to bring 553 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 4: healing in my life because he's such a genuinely strong 554 00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 4: but gentle man. And yeah, so our marriage was really 555 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 4: the beginning of my inner healing journey. And so we 556 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,839 Speaker 4: got married in two thousand and five. But then over 557 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 4: the course of the next five years, then I started 558 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 4: experiencing greater and greater wellness in my mental health status. 559 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 4: And so you know, I went from seeing a psychiatrist 560 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 4: every twice a month and a counselor every week and 561 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 4: taking five or six different drugs to manage my life, 562 00:37:56,600 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 4: everything from sleep meds and exiting anti anxiety meds and 563 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 4: antidepressants and mood stabilizing drugs and antipsychotic drugs, all those things. 564 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 4: Over the course of five years, I started tapering off those, 565 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 4: not needing them all all together with my psychiatrist. So 566 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,879 Speaker 4: I mean it started with me sleeping through the night, 567 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 4: and then so stop needing ambient, and then me not 568 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:32,880 Speaker 4: having anxiety attacks and so not not needing atavan, not 569 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 4: experiencing severe dips and depressions. To me not needing, you know, 570 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 4: you'd go, I'd cycle through all these antidepressants like well 571 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 4: bututrin and lexapro, and you run the gamut because your 572 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 4: physiology would change. Stop meeting those. Then I stopped needing 573 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 4: Sarahquell because I stopped having these kind of out of 574 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 4: body experiences. And I got down to lithium. So for 575 00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 4: all my life up to that point, or all of 576 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 4: my life up to that point, my late thirties, almost forty, 577 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:11,359 Speaker 4: I had been on either lithium or depicote and went 578 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 4: on a forty day fast and during that period felt 579 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 4: invited to taper off lithium and did that, and something 580 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 4: once again something that I don't Some people think that 581 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 4: there's this element of kind of uncleanness when you have 582 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,239 Speaker 4: to take drugs like that, And that's not what I'm 583 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,240 Speaker 4: saying here, but in my life, I was getting healthier, 584 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 4: and so I stopped needing lithium and went off lithium. 585 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 3: And eight was the forty day Fast. 586 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: Kind of pivotal in that. 587 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:55,040 Speaker 4: I don't know, they didn't begin as being connected. It 588 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,360 Speaker 4: was just during that forty day fast that I felt 589 00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 4: kind of the grace to do that. And so by 590 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 4: the end of the fast I had gone off with them. 591 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,880 Speaker 4: And since I have never had another psychotic or manic 592 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 4: or severe severely depressive moment major depression. Never And so 593 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,960 Speaker 4: you know, I mean I've experienced Everyone experiences depression, and 594 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:31,880 Speaker 4: you know, dips and changes in emotion, everyone does. But 595 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 4: I never experienced anything that was debilitating again, And honestly, 596 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 4: you know, in the context of my testimony when I 597 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 4: met the Lord, LGBT was not the life dominating issue 598 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 4: that I was concerned about. My mental health was. I 599 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 4: really feared I have tried it. I really feared that 600 00:40:54,239 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 4: I would. And the Lord meeting me in that space 601 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 4: is so profound, so profound, and if he hadn't if 602 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,239 Speaker 4: he hadn't met me in that space, I might have 603 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 4: been confused about what he did. Also in my identity, 604 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 4: my sexual identity, you know, But the two factors together 605 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 4: have meant that I've experienced just the most profound and 606 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 4: beautiful love of God and healing in my life. And 607 00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,680 Speaker 4: you know, continue, the healing process continues, continue, I continue 608 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 4: to mature, and I continue to get healthy even after 609 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 4: all these years. We all do. 610 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's the Lord. 611 00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 3: I don't know if you I don't know if you've 612 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 3: heard me say this tell this story before, but I've 613 00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 3: told it a couple of times on the show. But 614 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 3: I I was on Wellbutrin for a year for like 615 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 3: I know how long was that, ten years maybe before 616 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 3: I was a Christian. And so when I got saved 617 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 3: two thousand and nine, I was so euphoric, and I thought, 618 00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 3: you know, and the well Buttrin worked like a charm 619 00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,560 Speaker 3: because like it was, it was very effective and it 620 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,919 Speaker 3: had no side effects for me. And so but when 621 00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 3: I got saved, I was like, I don't think I 622 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 3: need this anymore, this drug. And so I contacted my 623 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 3: psychiatrist and and we had a meeting and I was like, 624 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 3: I'm I'm getting off the well Buttrin and he said. 625 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:34,600 Speaker 1: His response was like and he was. 626 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:36,359 Speaker 2: Gay. 627 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 3: He was a gay like Harvard psychiatrist in West LA 628 00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 3: and Brentwood and and I said, he said, oh, that's 629 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 3: wonderful news. Mask why And I said, well, I met 630 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:50,439 Speaker 3: Jesus and I don't. 631 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: I don't need it anymore. I don't think I need 632 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:53,160 Speaker 1: it anymore. 633 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,759 Speaker 3: And his response was, why don't we keep you on 634 00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 3: for six more months and then we'll And I was like, no, no, no, 635 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,359 Speaker 3: I'm getting off like immediately. 636 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 2: And. 637 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 3: So I with well, Bututrin, as far as I understand it, 638 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 3: you don't have to. I didn't have to wean off 639 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 3: of it. I just got off immediately. There's no weaning 640 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:18,399 Speaker 3: process with that drug, according to my psychiatrist. So I 641 00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:22,520 Speaker 3: just got off of it. But then a month about 642 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:28,680 Speaker 3: a month later, that old depression started creeping back in, 643 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 3: and I was like, ah, like I thought that was gone. 644 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 3: And I it was like this kind of like I 645 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,600 Speaker 3: always had this like morning depression ever since I was 646 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 3: kind of a teenager, and so I was very upsetting. 647 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,239 Speaker 3: And then I was at church the following Sunday and 648 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 3: I totally did a James five and if during after 649 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 3: the sermon, I went up to one of the elders 650 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,879 Speaker 3: and I said, I told him the situation, and he said, okay, 651 00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 3: let me pray for you, and he laid hands on 652 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 3: me and he pulled out while he was praying, he 653 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 3: pulled out a vial of anointing oil and he anointed 654 00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:09,879 Speaker 3: my head. And as he was praying for me, I 655 00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 3: felt this. It was like, I mean, I can't I 656 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,719 Speaker 3: wish people could feel that because it was so real 657 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 3: it was. I felt this physical tingling sensation rising up 658 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 3: through my. 659 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,799 Speaker 1: Body and out of my mind. And I immediately burst 660 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: into tears when that happened. 661 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 3: Wow, and that God, Like, you know, God doesn't always 662 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,960 Speaker 3: do this, but God, in that moment, God supernaturally healed 663 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 3: me of depression permanently. 664 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: It was like, yeah, it's so good, and so I 665 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 1: love with God. When God does that. 666 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 5: Sometimes it takes forty day fast other things, but in 667 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,480 Speaker 5: that minute moment, God just like met me there and 668 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 5: he was just like, I'm gonna I'm gonna take this 669 00:44:52,360 --> 00:44:52,840 Speaker 5: away from you. 670 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:53,799 Speaker 1: I'm going to heal you of this. 671 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,320 Speaker 3: And it was such a like and obviously it was 672 00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 3: so encouraging to my faith, and it was also just 673 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 3: a huge relief in my sight. And I told my 674 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 3: psychiatrist later and he just he looked very confused by 675 00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 3: the whole thing. 676 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you know, the Lord knows exactly 677 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 4: what we need. I think, you know, my journey with 678 00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 4: mental illness, the Lord continues to restore my mind so 679 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:31,760 Speaker 4: at its height, you know, at my worst, I really 680 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:37,320 Speaker 4: I couldn't go through a day without being disoriented towards 681 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 4: the time or what I should be doing. Like there 682 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:47,399 Speaker 4: was a season when I was I was working as 683 00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 4: a designer, a graphic designer, and I would schedule my 684 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 4: day in five, ten and fifteen minute increments so that 685 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,359 Speaker 4: if at any given moment I would kind of get 686 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,399 Speaker 4: lost and whatever I was thinking about, I could look 687 00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,680 Speaker 4: at my schedule and see what I should be doing, 688 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 4: you know. And so you know, but okay, I love 689 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,280 Speaker 4: that the Lord meets us in those deep places, right yeah? 690 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,120 Speaker 3: And so how did you get how did you get 691 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:18,600 Speaker 3: involved with the Change Movement? 692 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: And what is the Change movement? 693 00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:24,239 Speaker 4: What is the Change Movement? Well, the Change Movement is 694 00:46:23,640 --> 00:46:26,680 Speaker 4: a is a grassroots, kind of loose network of people 695 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 4: who have experienced Christ and left LGBT culture. You know, 696 00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:37,480 Speaker 4: I I well, I was up here in northern California 697 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:42,319 Speaker 4: attending a church and was introduced to another man who 698 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 4: had a similar background as mine, and we started meeting 699 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,960 Speaker 4: together over coffee and just talking about our life experiences 700 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,839 Speaker 4: because I had never met anyone else who had been 701 00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 4: in the gay culture and left that culture and followed 702 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 4: Christ with such life transformation as I had. And so 703 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,080 Speaker 4: we met together for about a year over coffee and 704 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 4: just kind of unpacked what God did and how could 705 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:13,120 Speaker 4: we understand it. And you know, at the end of 706 00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:17,080 Speaker 4: that period, we realized we probably knew enough to help 707 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:21,120 Speaker 4: other people. So we started a ministry called Equipped to Love, 708 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 4: and our focus was really just to go into churches 709 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,120 Speaker 4: help them better understand the experience so that there wasn't 710 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 4: so much fear in discipling people, like, yes, you can 711 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,560 Speaker 4: share the gospel. People like us are not. We're not 712 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,200 Speaker 4: uniquely different than you. Here's what it looks like, and 713 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,680 Speaker 4: here's some of the biggest hang ups that many of 714 00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 4: us have experienced that you might want to be prepared for. 715 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,839 Speaker 4: And we had been doing that for about a year 716 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:53,640 Speaker 4: and sharing our testimonies when California tried to pass kind 717 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:56,399 Speaker 4: of it was a form of a conversion therapy ban. 718 00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,720 Speaker 4: It was already conversion therapy for minors that had already 719 00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,360 Speaker 4: been that bill had passed several years prior, so this 720 00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,840 Speaker 4: was in twenty eighteen. But this new bill basically said, 721 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:11,520 Speaker 4: since we since we know sexual orientation cannot change, any 722 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,120 Speaker 4: suggestion that it can, or especially that it should, should 723 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,479 Speaker 4: be considered fraud in the state of California. So any 724 00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:23,600 Speaker 4: place where there is an exchange of money, you're liable 725 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,840 Speaker 4: for fraud. So that meant that Ken, he's published his 726 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,560 Speaker 4: memoir kind of like you have, we might not have 727 00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,960 Speaker 4: been able to sell that in the state of California, 728 00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:36,879 Speaker 4: or we might not have if we produced any resources 729 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:39,400 Speaker 4: like discipleship curriculum, we might not have been able to 730 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,960 Speaker 4: sell that or host a conference where there was a fee. 731 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,360 Speaker 4: And so we started kind of speaking out against that 732 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,440 Speaker 4: bill in Sacramento. And at one point, I mean, if 733 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 4: you can imagine just the optics here of I'm sharing 734 00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 4: my three minute testimony of leaving lesbianism with the Senate 735 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 4: Judiciary in sacrament I know, like imagine that problem, you know, 736 00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:06,000 Speaker 4: and so you know, they looked at us like we 737 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:08,840 Speaker 4: had three heads. And so we ended up publishing a 738 00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,400 Speaker 4: book of testimonies that we called it changed because that 739 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,279 Speaker 4: very very succinctly told what we were. You know, I 740 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 4: think I had a copy of it here. 741 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:22,880 Speaker 1: It's like a change of affection. 742 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,719 Speaker 4: Yeah, I kind of, you know, right, and it just 743 00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,680 Speaker 4: it doesn't have any rhetoric, and it just has kind 744 00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:35,319 Speaker 4: of tests, you know, these yeah spreads, And so we 745 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,800 Speaker 4: started passing those around in the Capitol, and then we 746 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 4: had a rally We're Invited, where we invited several of 747 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 4: us to share our testimonies from the capital steps, and 748 00:49:44,719 --> 00:49:47,480 Speaker 4: that got streamed on the internet, and all of a sudden, 749 00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,319 Speaker 4: we started hearing from people from all over saying, hey, 750 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:55,080 Speaker 4: that's my story too, And so we realized then we 751 00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,480 Speaker 4: had this, you know, these connections to people all over 752 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:02,359 Speaker 4: the world who had left LGB to follow Christ. And 753 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,920 Speaker 4: people started saying, oh, you were those changed folks in Sacramento. 754 00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:10,720 Speaker 4: And we because we all wore this this matching T shirt, 755 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:16,239 Speaker 4: and so very quickly changed eclipsed to our original ministry. 756 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:17,799 Speaker 4: You know, for a while, we tried to do them 757 00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,640 Speaker 4: in tandem, and so we ended up kind of shutting 758 00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 4: down equipped to Love and continuing with changed. So change 759 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,000 Speaker 4: does two things. Now. One, you know, we continue to 760 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:36,080 Speaker 4: just simply publish testimonies for people. And then we still 761 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,720 Speaker 4: do some church ministry where we talk about the life 762 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,440 Speaker 4: experience and offer encouragement to pastors on how to really 763 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,880 Speaker 4: provide care for people who are wanting to follow a 764 00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 4: biblical sexual ethic away from LGBT culture. But then also 765 00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:56,120 Speaker 4: because we were in Sacramento, we've remained in kind of 766 00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 4: public policy work. So I work with think tanks across 767 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,680 Speaker 4: the world. Really, I'm just addressing conversion therapy and conversion 768 00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:10,560 Speaker 4: therapy bands in particular and the harms of those, and 769 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,400 Speaker 4: working increasingly in the gender identity space and other things. 770 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,880 Speaker 4: But also, you know, one of the things that happened 771 00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,120 Speaker 4: for me when we were in Sacramento was I wanted 772 00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,640 Speaker 4: to be able to speak to the issue without being abrasive, 773 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,800 Speaker 4: without you know, without being kind of overly caustic religious. 774 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,799 Speaker 4: You know, I wanted to be able to walk as 775 00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,319 Speaker 4: I could see scripture showing. I wanted to be able 776 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:42,759 Speaker 4: to walk in compassion and humility, and to be able 777 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,920 Speaker 4: to dialogue on this issue in the public arena. And 778 00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,640 Speaker 4: so we do our best to continue in that space 779 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,440 Speaker 4: and also kind of help other Christian organizations to be 780 00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 4: in that space at the intersection of LGBT because it's 781 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:02,920 Speaker 4: just so caustic, conflict ridden, you know, let's leave. 782 00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,839 Speaker 1: It there, and thank you. 783 00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,400 Speaker 3: I appreciate you Elizabeth coming on and sharing your story. 784 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: Wait, don't touch that dial. 785 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,719 Speaker 3: Please like and subscribe, and also please consider becoming a 786 00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:17,319 Speaker 3: patron on Patreon. For as little as five dollars a month, 787 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,759 Speaker 3: you can really help us out on the show. The 788 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,960 Speaker 3: link is below and we so so appreciate it. 789 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:23,319 Speaker 1: Thank you. 790 00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,160 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Beckett 791 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:33,440 Speaker 2: Cook Show. Your support makes this content possible. All episodes 792 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,600 Speaker 2: of The Beckett Cook Show are also available on YouTube. 793 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:40,640 Speaker 2: For more information about Beckett and his ministry, visit his 794 00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:43,920 Speaker 2: website at Beckettcook dot com. 795 00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,040 Speaker 3: Thank you to the team at Life Audio for their 796 00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:49,040 Speaker 3: partnership with us. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 797 00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:53,160 Speaker 3: you will find more faith centered podcasts about prayer, Bible study, parenting, 798 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:53,560 Speaker 3: and more.