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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: Gansel, philosopher, author, colleague of mine at Talbot School of Theology.

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Speaker 2: Good have you. We had a live video posted on

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Speaker 2: Friday with William and Craig, who probably most people tracking

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Speaker 2: this know has probably been the foremost defender of the

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Speaker 2: Christian faith in the existence of God for the past

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Speaker 2: three decades plus, certainly on an academic level. He has

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Speaker 2: a new volume coming out in June where he defends

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Speaker 2: six of the arguments for the existence of God, and

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Speaker 2: so we walked through those. I tried to throw the

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Speaker 2: toughest objections at him and invited all of you to

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Speaker 2: post your questions. I have a ton that I've received

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Speaker 2: already which we will take and some live ones here

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Speaker 2: live from Tabis School Theology. Doctor Gray Gansel, you rd

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Speaker 2: rock and Roll.

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Speaker 1: I think we are yeah, all right now.

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Speaker 2: Maybe tell us just really quickly, as people are getting

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Speaker 2: geared up, just give us a quick background kind of

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Speaker 2: of who you are and what you tea well.

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Speaker 1: I teach philosophy, and my specialties are in the philosophy

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Speaker 1: of religion, so talking about arguments for and against the

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Speaker 1: existence of God, that's mostly what I do. I have

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Speaker 1: some other interests I'm interested in Nietzsche, and he's fun

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Speaker 1: to read and love to be part of the team

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Speaker 1: here at Talbot.

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Speaker 2: Fun to read. So you're at Yale for a while,

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Speaker 2: which is amazing. You're in a few remarkable books. One

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Speaker 2: talking about God is the title I Believe That is God.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, intrection. Thinking about God is one of my

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Speaker 2: go to beginning philosophy books for people, So I would

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Speaker 2: just recommend that one is dynamic. And then your book

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Speaker 2: on desires, give me the titles again, well, our.

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Speaker 1: Deepest Desires, How the Christian story fulfills human aspiration?

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Speaker 2: Honestly, Greg, I love that book. I think it's profound,

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Speaker 2: and we talked about it. But with that said, let's

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Speaker 2: jump into some of the questions and objections we have.

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Speaker 2: And I see some already in the chat. So instead

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Speaker 2: of taking one that people have already said, and let's

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Speaker 2: take one live that I see right here and get

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Speaker 2: your take sure on this. So here's one. If God

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Speaker 2: does exist, why wouldn't he make it much more clear

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Speaker 2: that he does? If God? So this is really what's

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Speaker 2: often called the problem of divine hidden this. So we

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Speaker 2: could spend the whole show on this, but maybe one

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Speaker 2: or two points from your perspective.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I find this a difficult problem because it's asking

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Speaker 1: questions about the intention of God, why he does what

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Speaker 1: he does, and we don't have direct access to this.

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Speaker 1: I think some of the most common answers have to

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Speaker 1: do with God has made his existence knowable for people

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Speaker 1: who honestly seek him, but there's a he steps back

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Speaker 1: in order to make room for a lack of coercion.

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Speaker 1: I think that's a good first step on this.

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Speaker 2: Okay, good. This was from Zach Love, and I would

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Speaker 2: say it's really interesting that this question comes up and

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Speaker 2: I feel the weight of it. There's a part of

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Speaker 2: me that's like, yeah, God, just give me more signs.

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Speaker 2: God give me more evidence. So I feel the way

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Speaker 2: of this question. But I don't know that we always

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Speaker 2: realize if God makes himself more evident in terms of

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Speaker 2: what we want, what also comes along with that. So

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Speaker 2: it's like we want everything to stay the same and

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Speaker 2: God to make himself more clear. And I want to

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Speaker 2: say it doesn't work that way if you go back

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Speaker 2: in the Old Testament, when God was making himself arguably

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Speaker 2: more clear. There's a different dynamic and relationship that Israel

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Speaker 2: is with certainly in the desert relating to God, and

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure I want some of the other things

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Speaker 2: that came along with that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a good point, because what came

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Speaker 1: along with it is a not quite but almost a

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Speaker 1: lack of agency.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: There was much less of a sense of personal relationship

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Speaker 1: to God, and it was God interacting with the nation

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Speaker 1: more than with individuals. Okay, And I think that's that's

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Speaker 1: a good thing about this.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, Moses goes up to get the

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Speaker 2: Ten Commandments relate to God and they start worshiping a

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Speaker 2: golden calf, right, So the problem wasn't the hiddenness of God.

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Speaker 1: Not at all. It's a it's a resistance to submission

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Speaker 1: is the problem.

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Speaker 2: And there's also take John eleven. When Jesus raises Lazarus.

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Speaker 2: They don't say, oh, my goodness, this is a clear miracle.

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Speaker 2: Four days that already stink. They want to run Jesus

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Speaker 2: out of town and kill Lazarus. So I think God

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Speaker 2: has done sufficient evidence, but he's not going to overwhelm us.

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Speaker 1: I think that's right.

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Speaker 2: That's the beginning response.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So there were six arguments that and then Craig defended,

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Speaker 2: and one of them was classically the calom cosmological argument. Now,

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Speaker 2: we got a bunch of questions just on this, but

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Speaker 2: here's one question. That response says, Okay, so maybe the

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Speaker 2: universe needs a cause, but the cause need not be God.

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Speaker 1: Well, that is an excellent point, and what makes it

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Speaker 1: excellent is it raises an important feature of almost every

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Speaker 1: argument for God, not literally everyone. These arguments come in

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Speaker 1: two parts. The first part argues from something observable, something

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Speaker 1: in what we might call the natural world, to an

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Speaker 1: explanation or a cause outside the natural world. The second

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Speaker 1: part is arguing from that cause to the characteristics of God. Now,

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Speaker 1: in philosophy of religion, when you take a philosophy class,

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Speaker 1: we almost only do the first part of the argument.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people complain about Thomas Aquinas's Five Ways,

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Speaker 1: where he goes through these arguments in about four hundred words,

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Speaker 1: but he spends the next three hundred pages doing the

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Speaker 1: second part of the argument, showing that this cause has

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Speaker 1: the features of the God of the Bible, and so

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Speaker 1: the objection is correct as it stands. You need another argument. Now,

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Speaker 1: in the video, Bill gave a few words towards this.

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Speaker 1: He did, what kind of cause does the universe need.

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Speaker 1: It's got to be intelligent, it's got to be powerful,

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Speaker 1: it has to be outside of space and time, not

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Speaker 1: part of the universe, and it has to be a

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Speaker 1: personal agent. And this is because this explains why the

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Speaker 1: universe came into being when it did. And sometimes I

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Speaker 1: tell my students when I say now, I want you

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Speaker 1: to raise your hand, but don't do it yet. And

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Speaker 1: then I say now, and they all raised their hands.

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Speaker 1: I said, what was the difference? You willed to raise

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Speaker 1: your hand at the point and to initiate in this way? Okay,

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Speaker 1: All the conditions are there for the universe, and it

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Speaker 1: took the will of a personal agent to bring it

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Speaker 1: into being.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So one other seemingly adequate explanation for the words

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Speaker 2: universe that is timeless and immaterial and spaceless. Can be

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Speaker 2: things like numbers or laws of logic, right, but they

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Speaker 2: don't have power to cause and act in the way

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Speaker 2: that you did exactly. In some ways, we come to

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Speaker 2: God by a process of elimination. And Bill was doctor

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Speaker 2: Craig is willing to say, look, I just can't think

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Speaker 2: of another plausible candidate that can do this than a God. Now,

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Speaker 2: the objection says, and then we'll come back to some

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Speaker 2: of the questions. By the way, if you have a question,

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Speaker 2: put question the word in caps and then list your

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Speaker 2: question as succinctly as you can, and we'll get as

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Speaker 2: many as we can take. The cause need not be God,

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Speaker 2: I would say, the cause need not be the Christian God.

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Speaker 2: So a lot of Muslims have defended the cosmological argument.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, you use Bill's arguments. Interesting enough, I

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Speaker 2: imagine Jews might, Deis might. So it doesn't get us

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Speaker 2: to the Trinity, doesn't get us the deed of Jesus.

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Speaker 2: It's not supposed to. But it points towards a transcendent, immaterial,

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Speaker 2: powerful and personal because it takes a person with the

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Speaker 2: will to act as the best explanation we have for

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Speaker 2: the origin of the universe. So I think to me,

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Speaker 2: that's a sufficient response to the cause need not be God.

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Speaker 2: All right, you ready for some more?

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Speaker 1: Yep?

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Speaker 2: Okay, we're here, jumping right in here. Let's go. You

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Speaker 2: know what, that is a comment, not a question. Okay,

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Speaker 2: here's another one from Mark. This pop to the top.

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Speaker 2: I see some other questions here. It says, actually, this

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Speaker 2: might be the first one from Mark Corbett. It says

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Speaker 2: in New Testament, miracles and supernatural experience i e. Visions

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Speaker 2: sometimes provided evidence that led to faith. Do you think

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Speaker 2: modern day miracles sometimes play a role play a similar

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Speaker 2: role today?

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Speaker 1: I think actually they do. I think modern day miracles,

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Speaker 1: people being healed in response to prayer, other things that

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Speaker 1: we might call miracles, or even fortuitous circumstances in response

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Speaker 1: to prayer can can help a person come to see

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Speaker 1: maybe God is actively involved, maybe God is a reality.

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Speaker 1: And what that does is that opens our thinking to

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Speaker 1: be more open to other considerations, to evidence, and we say, wow,

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Speaker 1: maybe God is real. Then I read Bill on the

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Speaker 1: colonbal cosmological ar argument, and I say, oh, my gosh,

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Speaker 1: here's a good reason to think he is real. So

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Speaker 1: it can be kind of a first step for many

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Speaker 1: people of kind of opening their thinking to be receptive

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Speaker 1: to the reality of God. And then various other things,

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Speaker 1: evidence or what have you, the testimony of others can

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Speaker 1: provide steps towards coming to belief.

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Speaker 2: That's a great response when we asked the question specifically,

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Speaker 2: do you think modern day miracles sometimes play a similar

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Speaker 2: role today? And my answer is yes, I'm convinced they are.

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Speaker 2: And I interviewed. It's maybe even about a month now.

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Speaker 2: A friend of mine, doctor Shirriot, who has been kind

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Speaker 2: of called the Billy Graham of Iran, left in nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy nine during the Iranian Revolution as a Muslim, became

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Speaker 2: a Christian and for years has been leading some of

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Speaker 2: the top evangelistic ministry in Iran. And I interviewed him

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Speaker 2: about kind of what was going on updates, and he said, sadly,

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Speaker 2: when there's crackdown in protests, we do see people die.

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Speaker 2: It's tragic, and some of the means that the Iranian

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Speaker 2: government uses are just horrific. But we also see people

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Speaker 2: being disillusioned with Iran. Well, I'm sorry with islam an

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Speaker 2: increase of people coming to faith, they get floods of emails.

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Speaker 2: I said, are we seeing miracles and visions and dreams?

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Speaker 2: He looked at me and goes, Sean, it's so common today.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes people don't even mention it. That's one testimony. Yes,

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Speaker 2: And they're getting droves of emails, droves to people who

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Speaker 2: report to them at a cost for this, It's not

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Speaker 2: like you and I say, and I saw a miracle

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Speaker 2: and write a book about it, whatever, and people praise

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Speaker 2: us it comes at a cost for them. So I

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Speaker 2: have no doubt that this is happening today, not to

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Speaker 2: mention all the work by Keener and our colleague Jpmore

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Speaker 2: in his book on Miracles that are happening today. I

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Speaker 2: have no doubt that God is working miracles today and

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Speaker 2: drawing people to faith through through miracles. But let us

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Speaker 2: not think miracles are coercive. People saw Jesus do miracles

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Speaker 2: and still didn't believe. Yes, we're back to the point before.

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Speaker 1: But Bertrand Russell famously said, what would you do if

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Speaker 1: you died and were standing before God? He said, I

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Speaker 1: always tell God not enough evidence. Wow, And I think

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Speaker 1: you know he might just do that because he was

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Speaker 1: so closed off to the possibility of God's existence. And C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis made similar comments about certain people are so hardened

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Speaker 1: in their hearts that even a miracle will not dislodge

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Speaker 1: their skepticism.

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Speaker 2: Well, Pharaoh does come to mind, Yes, I digress. Yes,

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Speaker 2: all right, So friends, we're here with Greg Ansell at

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Speaker 2: Taboschoo Theology by All University to take in your live

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Speaker 2: questions on the six arguments for the existence of God,

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Speaker 2: presented most recently by William and Craig, and those will

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Speaker 2: be in his forthcoming volume on a Systematic Philosophical Theology,

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Speaker 2: and you can preorder it now, but it's not out

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Speaker 2: for a couple months. Let's take one on the moral arguments.

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Speaker 2: They came in the objection was and then we'll come

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Speaker 2: back to those who are posting them live. So if

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Speaker 2: you have a live question, right question in and keep

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Speaker 2: it on topic. We're not doing politics here, We're not

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Speaker 2: doing other biblical exegesis here on the existence of God.

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Speaker 2: Here's one on the moral argument. If moral truths are obvious,

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Speaker 2: why is there so much disagreement?

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Speaker 1: Okay, I think it's helpful to make a distinction between

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Speaker 1: the concept of morality and the content. So the concept

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Speaker 1: of morality has to do with what do we mean

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Speaker 1: by something is morally wrong? And there's deep agreement about

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Speaker 1: what we mean if something is morally wrong, we don't

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Speaker 1: do it. In fact, we judge people for doing it.

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Speaker 1: We say, no, you have done something wrong. And that's

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Speaker 1: why shared Now the third thing is the theory of morality.

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Speaker 1: So we have the concept what do we mean? We

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Speaker 1: have the content, which is which things are obligatory and

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Speaker 1: which things are wrong or prohibited. The specifics, and then

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Speaker 1: there's the theory. What is it that makes them right

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Speaker 1: or wrong? Now the concept, there's lots of agreement, and

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Speaker 1: this is what's obvious. What's obvious is that there are

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Speaker 1: things that are obligatory there's something wrong with me if

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Speaker 1: I don't do them, And we have disagreements about our theory.

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Speaker 1: And that's what gives rise to the moral argument, that

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Speaker 1: the claim that a theistic picture is a better theory

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Speaker 1: of morality. There is disagreement about some of the content,

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Speaker 1: but actually a small percentage of the content. C. S.

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Speaker 1: Lewis wrote about this in his book The applem a

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Speaker 1: Man in his appendix where he went through all of

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Speaker 1: the traditions Taoism, Islam, Confucianism, and the Enlightenment and drew

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Speaker 1: the great commonalities in terms of moral content. Nobody thinks

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Speaker 1: it's okay to torture a three year old to death

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Speaker 1: just for fun. There's no disagreement about that. There might

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Speaker 1: be disagreements about, in Lewis's terms, do you have one

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Speaker 1: wife or four wives? But nobody thinks you can treat

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Speaker 1: women any way you want to, And so I think

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Speaker 1: there is more agreement than disagreement. But the fundamental agreement

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Speaker 1: is on the concept, and that's where we find that

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Speaker 1: morality has to be objective.

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Speaker 2: So the question says, if moral truths are obvious, you

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Speaker 2: want to make a distinction or clarification what we mean

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Speaker 2: by truths. Yes, so I would Some of the language

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Speaker 2: I would use is I would say moral principles are

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Speaker 2: obvious and moral principles are transcendent moral practices. Is where

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Speaker 2: we see some of the differences. Yes, which would make

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Speaker 2: sense if people have principles and value them or weigh

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Speaker 2: them a little bit differently as they shift over time.

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Speaker 2: The practice is not the concern. The question is the principles.

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Speaker 1: Well, you can think of it this way. We have

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Speaker 1: principles widely shared, like show respect to other human beings.

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Speaker 1: There you how we do that is varies in some

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Speaker 1: ways by culture. Do you shake hands with the person?

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Speaker 1: Do you bow right? There are different cultural practicing practices

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Speaker 1: for showing respect, but there are different ways to fulfill

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Speaker 1: the principle. There's something analogous here. I think good stuff.

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Speaker 2: So I think the bottom line is nothing follows from disagreement.

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Speaker 2: So this is true. Historically speaking, there's some disagreement about

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Speaker 2: the Holocaust. There used to be minimal. Now we're actually

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Speaker 2: seeing more and more because of artificial intelligence and because

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Speaker 2: of certain talk shows and other means of technology. If

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Speaker 2: disagreement grew bigger, that wouldn't mean there wasn't a holocaust

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Speaker 2: and there wasn't an objective truth about it. Nothing falls

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Speaker 2: from disagreement scientifically. The twentieth century was a huge battle,

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Speaker 2: so to speak, over the beginning. And there's a new

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Speaker 2: book called Battle of the Beginning. Just had Stephen Meyer

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Speaker 2: in studio a little plug. We've got him coming on

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Speaker 2: soon to review this fascinating book that there's huge debate.

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Speaker 2: In fact, in this book there's twenty five different theories

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Speaker 2: about the origin of the universe, and Meyer thinks they

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Speaker 2: all fail, and they all assume some kind of information

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Speaker 2: or design to get rid of the origin of the universe,

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Speaker 2: which is the very thing the orgs and the universe

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Speaker 2: points towards. So the mere fact that there's disagreement doesn't

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Speaker 2: tell us that there was or wasn't a beginning to

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Speaker 2: the universe. There's still a truth about it even if

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Speaker 2: we debate it.

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Speaker 1: And this is a very important point, right, disagreement does

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Speaker 1: not render a subject matter relativistic or a subjective good way,

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Speaker 1: it just doesn't happen.

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Speaker 2: That's great, good stuff. Okay, Wow, we've got some other

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Speaker 2: objectives here. Let me or questions here, let me go

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Speaker 2: to the live ones. If you have a question for

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Speaker 2: doctor Gray Gansel or myself, right, question in caps, and

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Speaker 2: we'll do our best to tackle it.

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Speaker 1: Here.

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Speaker 2: Boy, I see some really good questions here. So you've

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Speaker 2: done some work on Nietzsche, and you've written on Nietzsche.

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Speaker 2: You're teaching a class on Nietzsche. Before I come to

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Speaker 2: this question, could you say a little bit Who was

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Speaker 2: Nietzsche and why is his thinking so important when it

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Speaker 2: comes to essians related to the existence of God.

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Speaker 1: Well, Nietzsche was a late nineteenth century thinker. He was

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Speaker 1: trained as a philologist the study of the history and

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Speaker 1: nature of language, but he really became a philosopher in

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Speaker 1: his writing. And he is provocative because he's an iconoclast.

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Speaker 1: He writes with broad, sweeping, poetic brilliance, and he tackles

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Speaker 1: the value of things that nobody questioned. So in his

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Speaker 1: day there were a lot of atheists, but he challenged

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Speaker 1: the atheists of his day because he said, you're not

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Speaker 1: taking your atheism seriously enough. You're still clinging to Christian morality,

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Speaker 1: when if you're going to give up God, you really

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Speaker 1: need to give up traditional morality. And of course he

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Speaker 1: thought there was no God. He lost his childhood faith

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Speaker 1: when he was in the equivalence of high school. His

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Speaker 1: father was a Lutheran minister, and and I think part

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Speaker 1: of the reason this is a tangent he lost his faith.

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Speaker 1: There were several things, but one of them was there

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Speaker 1: were no Christian scholars that were answering the objections he

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Speaker 1: got from his academic work, really, and I think if

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Speaker 1: there had been some, maybe he would have had an answer.

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Speaker 1: It's not the only thing that was happening. But he

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Speaker 1: took very seriously what he called the death of God.

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Speaker 1: And it's not that God used to be alive and

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Speaker 1: now he's dead, but the very idea of God is preposterous,

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Speaker 1: and we've given all of that up. But he says,

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Speaker 1: the shadow of God lingers, and it lingers in morality,

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Speaker 1: it lingers in this assumption that every human being is

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Speaker 1: entitled to equal dignity. He was a very anti egalitarian

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Speaker 1: and so it's very how are you interesting? And he

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Speaker 1: gets co opted where he gets co opted by the

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Speaker 1: hard left and the hard right.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting.

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Speaker 1: So it's a fascinating study.

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Speaker 2: One of the things I appreciate about Nietzsche, unlike the

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Speaker 2: new atheist movement, is it was kind of like, we

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Speaker 2: can get rid of God and we have a wonderful

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Speaker 2: society and go on a life will be better. Nietzsche's like,

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Speaker 2: uh no, you get rid of the God and human

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Speaker 2: value is gone, human meaning is gone. Like he walks

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Speaker 2: through the cost of what getting rid of God? And

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Speaker 2: hence this mad man analogy. We have mad man, we

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Speaker 2: have killed God. Now what's going to follow from that?

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Speaker 2: That's what I love about Nietzsche. Here's a question. This

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Speaker 2: is not where I thought this was going, person said

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Speaker 2: Frederic Nietzsche said, and I believe he said that. You

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Speaker 2: can correct. Just if this is not true, I might

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Speaker 2: believe in the Redeemer if his followers looked more redeemed.

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Speaker 2: If God exists, why is there so much hypocrisy in

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Speaker 2: the church? So, first off, are you aware of did

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Speaker 2: Nietzsche actually say that or something like that. If not,

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Speaker 2: let's just shift to the hypocrisy question.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't recall where that is, but it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: surprise me if he said that okay. He filled his

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Speaker 1: books with little sayings like this. One of them is

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Speaker 1: it's surprising that if God wrote his book in Greek,

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Speaker 1: he wrote it in such bad Greek, which is kind

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Speaker 1: of a funny sentence. The hypocrisy question is is fascinating

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Speaker 1: because if Christianity is true, we should expect the church

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Speaker 1: to be filled with hypocrites. And it's because we're all fallen.

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Speaker 1: That's a theological term. We all have this rebellion against God,

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Speaker 1: and that's why we need a redeemer. And the working

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Speaker 1: out of our redemption is something that takes place over time,

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Speaker 1: and we fail, we mess up, and we only imperfectly

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Speaker 1: in this life live into what it means to be

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Speaker 1: a follower of Christ, and so I should expect there

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Speaker 1: to be a lot of failures in the church.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, yeah, the wonder if you're in

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Speaker 2: a balance.

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Speaker 1: This went out okay. On the other hand, it's a

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Speaker 1: stereotype that people who are followers of Jesus don't care

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Speaker 1: about the poor, they are selfish, but actually all of

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Speaker 1: the studies that have been done show the opposite is

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Speaker 1: the case. The most involved people are the ones who

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Speaker 1: are followers of Jesus. The people who sacrifice the most

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Speaker 1: even donate the most blood, are there are faithful followers

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Speaker 1: of Christ. So it's an easy stereotype to try to

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Speaker 1: put forward, but it has no grounding. In fact, I'd

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Speaker 1: like to tell ask people why are all the hospitals

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Speaker 1: named Saint somebody Wells? Because Christians built the hospitals. It's

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Speaker 1: just a fact of history.

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Speaker 2: You know. I resonate somewhat with this objection because the

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Speaker 2: Bible talks about how we are a new creation in Christ,

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Speaker 2: and we have the Holy Spirit inside of us, and

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Speaker 2: there's so many people who have genuine experiences with self

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Speaker 2: proclaimed Christians in which those Christians don't reflect that. Now

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Speaker 2: it's hard to not say, well, here's just a narrative.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to quantify this. But I get the objection

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Speaker 2: because it's like, if this is really true and we're

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Speaker 2: a new creation, there should be a qualitative, noticeable, transcendent

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Speaker 2: difference in the life of Christians that we often don't see. Now,

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Speaker 2: with that said, I agree with you that you know,

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Speaker 2: the Bible talks about, you know, Romans three and Mark

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Speaker 2: chapter seven, how fallen and corrupt the human heart is,

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Speaker 2: and how all of us are capable of of the

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Speaker 2: most egregious, worst sins imaginable because of human depravity. So

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Speaker 2: in some ways we shouldn't be surprised when we see hypocrisy,

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Speaker 2: because a Christian depiction of human nature is that we're

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Speaker 2: made God's image and have infinite dignity and value and worth,

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Speaker 2: and yet we have been profoundly and deeply corrupted by sin,

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Speaker 2: and that new creation begins here, but it's not completed

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Speaker 2: until the next life. The other thing I would say

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Speaker 2: is the idea of hypocrisy also assumes an objective moral

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Speaker 2: norm that we should follow. It was a friendly debate

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Speaker 2: with a guy I think it was twenty eighteen up

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Speaker 2: in Portland who was on the Unbelievable Show, and we're

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Speaker 2: talking about the moral argument. And he was a subjectivist,

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Speaker 2: and I said, you know, your whole focus of your

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Speaker 2: I don't think you used term ministry, but your life

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Speaker 2: is like to find mistakes in hipocrispses examples of hypocrisy

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Speaker 2: and Christianity and call them on it and shame it

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Speaker 2: for him. You know, that only makes sense if there's

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Speaker 2: an objective moral code. He goes, I'm not appealing to

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Speaker 2: objective morality. I'm just trying to point out hypocrisy, and

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Speaker 2: I said, because you think that's objectively wrong, and it

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Speaker 2: wasn't meant to be a gotcha moment. The audience kind

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Speaker 2: of laughed because they saw it. And so if you're saying,

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Speaker 2: you know, if you're an atheist or whatever your worldview is,

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Speaker 2: and you're criticizing Christians for hypocrisy, a part of me says, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're guilty. We fall short all the time, and I

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Speaker 2: mourn when I do myself and others do. But that

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Speaker 2: only makes sense if there's an objective moral code and

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Speaker 2: humans are supposed to live a certain way, which kind

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Speaker 2: of points towards design and objective moral law giver. On

434
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,199
Speaker 2: top of that, I'd say, if you're against hypocrisy, you know,

435
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 2: the most famous influencer who critique hypocrisy was Jesus, so

436
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,400
Speaker 2: you're in good company with Jesus. You don't like hypocrisy,

437
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 2: all right, keep the questions coming, let's try maybe you

438
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: want to try one on fine tuning. Sure, so again

439
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 2: we're live taking your questions objections about arguments for the

440
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 2: existence of God. And this is a follow up from

441
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: video I posted interviewing though One and only William Lane

442
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,400
Speaker 2: Craig laying out his six arguments for God's existence. We've

443
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 2: done morality, We've done the cosmological argument. One of the

444
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 2: other arguments is the fine tuning argument. And there's a

445
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 2: bunch of arguments that are responses we got here. One

446
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,239
Speaker 2: is what's called the anthropic principle. And this is a

447
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 2: common one. I get this whenever I speak on college campuses,

448
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: is that we can only observe a universe consistent with

449
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 2: our existence. So we wouldn't see ourselves in the universe

450
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 2: that's not fine tuned. And so the fact that we're

451
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: in your universe that is fine tuned, we shouldn't be

452
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: surprised because we couldn't find ourselves anywhere else but in

453
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 2: the universe that's actually fine tuned. R Does that explain

454
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 2: away the fine tuning of the laws and constants of physics?

455
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 1: Well, I think not, as you're not surprised. I think

456
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 1: it's kind of saying, given the fact we exist, we're

457
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,440
Speaker 1: not surprised that we have a universe that's fine tuned

458
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 1: for life. Well, the question is how unlikely is it

459
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: that a universe is fine tuned for life? We kind

460
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: of bracket our existence. We kind of have to take

461
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: ourselves out of our universe and say, look, of all

462
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 1: the different ways a universe could have been generated, it's

463
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: extremely unlikely that there's one fine tune for life. But

464
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: of course, given that we're here having the conversation, we're

465
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 1: not surprised we live in this kind of universe. But

466
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 1: it does nothing to take away the immense improbability of

467
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: this happening by chance.

468
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: So good response. I think there's a confusion here between

469
00:28:55,040 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 2: necessary and sufficient conditions. So for us to exist and

470
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 2: observe the universe, it's necessary that we are in a

471
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 2: universe that is fine tuned for life, but that doesn't

472
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: explain how we actually got here. It's not sufficient to

473
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 2: account for why the universe was fine tuned in the

474
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 2: first place exactly. That's the problem of what needs to

475
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 2: be explained. And so I think of another example that's

476
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: calmly thrown out there is you know, the marksman example.

477
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: I forget the name. Someone's going to say it here

478
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: that it came from that. If you have one hundred

479
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: marksmen aimed at somebody to assassinate, somebody aimed at like

480
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 2: their heart, and the person they all miss, and he goes,

481
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 2: oh my goodness, here I am, well, this explains why

482
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 2: they missed, because if they hadn't missed, I wouldn't be

483
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 2: here to be surprised.

484
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: That's a good example.

485
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: Yes, And the answers like, okay, wait a minute. The

486
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: fact that they all missed either somebody put blanks in

487
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 2: all of right, maybe there's an invisible force field. Maybe

488
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 2: they told him to miss The fact that he's here

489
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 2: doesn't explain why they missed. That's the same with us

490
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: in this universe. We still need an explanation why we're

491
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 2: here in the laws are fine tune, and we need

492
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: an explanation why this person who's being put to capital

493
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: punishment is not dead. And all the marksmen missed.

494
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: So the explanation goes the other way. Right, he's here

495
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: because they missed. That's part of the explanation. And we

496
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: could say the same thing. We are here having this

497
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: conversation because the universe is fine tuned. Now, that's not

498
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: the whole of it. A fine tuned universe gives the

499
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 1: possibility of life, and the very intelligent designer that designed

500
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 1: the universe also oversees the creation of every human being.

501
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: But part of the story of why you and I

502
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: were created by God is one of the conditions for

503
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: that is a finely tuned.

504
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: Universe, one of the necessary conditions. Okay, I see a

505
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: comment here and I want to go to you. I

506
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: hope I'm reading it in context or might be a

507
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: larger conversation that I'm I'm missing. So let me just

508
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: read this and you can win. This individual says Nietzsche

509
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 2: was wrong to say non believers have to give up

510
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: Christian morals. If there's no God, where does Christian morals

511
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:33,680
Speaker 2: come from? Humans? Why not listen to other humans? Nietzsche.

512
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: If I'm reading this correctly, it's not a part of

513
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: a larger dialogue. This individual is saying, even if there's

514
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 2: no God, we could still have Christian morals because they

515
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 2: come from humans, not from God.

516
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: Well, there's something true about this objection, or it's actually

517
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: phrased as a question. But we could decide we want

518
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: to live a certain way. Let's let's say we become

519
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: convinced and it's in fact true that there is no God.

520
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: So what we were calling Christian morals have no transcendent source.

521
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: It's just an invention of human beings. We could discover

522
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: that fact and we could sit around and say, yeah,

523
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: but you know, we kind of like those morals and

524
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 1: decide to live accordingly, but there would be no obligation.

525
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 1: The obligation goes away. And one of the things Nietzsche

526
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: is doing is he's asking the question are these morals

527
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: good for human beings? Are they good for flourishing? And

528
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: he has a long story about why he thinks they're not,

529
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: and that by itself, if they're not grounded in something transcended,

530
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: is reason to reject them.

531
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 2: So Nietzsche would differ with like the Harvard Flourishing Project. Yes,

532
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: that seems to argue things like gratitude and forgiveness and

533
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 2: other Christian virtues really lead towards positive mental health relationships,

534
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: et cetera. So that's not a transcendent argument. No, he's

535
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: saying on a practical, prudential level, so give them up.

536
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: It's because morality now I'm speaking for Nietzche here, morality

537
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: obligates us to put our own desires down in order

538
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,959
Speaker 1: to serve the weaker. And and so what we're doing

539
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: is we are turning away from strength and towards weakness.

540
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: And we've in a sense changed our whole vocabulary. We

541
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: don't call people weak anymore. We call them needy, and

542
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: we have an obligation to help them, And he says

543
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: that's not there's no reason to do that. There are

544
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: strong people and there are weak people, and the strong

545
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: people should be strong.

546
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm gonna read this again and clarify Colin.

547
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 2: He says Nietzsche was wrong say non believers have to

548
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: give up Christian morals if there's no God, where do

549
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: Christian morals come from? Humans? Why not listen to other humans?

550
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 2: Nietzsche And the answer could be they're welcome to listen

551
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: to other humans. You don't have to give up Christian

552
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:18,320
Speaker 2: morals if there's no God. But now the moral project

553
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 2: is not about discovering the way the world really is

554
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: and what our obligations are. It's totally prudential. How do

555
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,719
Speaker 2: I want to live? Yes, so it's subjectivest. Now I

556
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 2: can keep Christian morals, or I can take Nietzschean morals,

557
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: or I can become a utilitarian, or I can become

558
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: a nihilist if there is no God. And this is

559
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:45,440
Speaker 2: a part of Nietzsche's own reasoning. By the way, then

560
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: deciding between moral systems is prudential, is driven by power,

561
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,280
Speaker 2: it's not by driven what is objectively right or better

562
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: than another way of actually living exactly, That's what I

563
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: think the key is. So you're welcome to live at

564
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 2: Christian morals. What you can't say is this is a

565
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 2: superior morality right than something else, or inferior by that

566
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: same not morally superior, morally superior.

567
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: NI is gonna say it is prudentially, as far as

568
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: human flourishing is concerned, inferior because it pushes against our desires,

569
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: it pushes against pursuing what we want, and it's against flourishing.

570
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: It's anti life. And so that's not a moral judgment.

571
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: It's it's a kind of a prudential judgment on morality

572
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 1: for Nietzsche.

573
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 2: Good good stuff. Okay, friends, if you have a question,

574
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 2: right question in caps related to the existence of God

575
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 2: the truth of Christianity, we will weigh in on this. Gosh,

576
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:53,839
Speaker 2: I see if you here, let me see I see

577
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 2: a comment. Okay, here's one. Let me read this one

578
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: before you. Oh, one of my students is messing with me.

579
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: Ha ha ha, he smiled. I knew it.

580
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: I knew it.

581
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 2: Armand good to see you, man, that's awesome, he says.

582
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: If someone acts im morally but still keeps their job well.

583
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,720
Speaker 2: To what degree should we be skeptical that pursus tilos

584
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,320
Speaker 2: for doing their job well? From arm and your student,

585
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 2: he's just mess with me in the Apologize from It program, Armin.

586
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: Good to have you, hey, tell us really quickly, by

587
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 2: the way, I've been meaning to write a substack post

588
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 2: on what I consider one of the most important skills

589
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 2: to develop for apologists, which is to learn to think philosophically.

590
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 2: When I did the MA phil program here, Greg, it

591
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 2: was before you were here. I was a student, obviously,

592
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 2: before I was teaching. It was transformative to me. My wife,

593
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: my first marmory with her was in third grade, and

594
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: she can point to probably three times in my life.

595
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 2: She's like, I saw your faith most come alive and

596
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: it was transformed. And I've all saved the other two

597
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,160
Speaker 2: for another time, but one of them was when I

598
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 2: studied philosophy here, which some of the philosophical courses will

599
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 2: be in the Apologics program, right, but just kind of

600
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: quickly tell us how's that program doing. What would people

601
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 2: get if they studied? And I feel, in person or

602
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 2: by distance.

603
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: I think one of the great things is clarity of

604
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 1: thinking and clarity of thinking. We're taught this by having

605
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,879
Speaker 1: to read texts, especially texts that are arguing against Christianity

606
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: or on all kinds of topics, sure really closely and

607
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,279
Speaker 1: clearly what exactly is being claimed and what exactly is

608
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: the argument, and then to put forward arguments to engage

609
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: these things, either for or against, but fairly and charitably.

610
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: And the clarity of thinking that you learn from reading

611
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: and writing philosophically is invaluable. So you learn the skill

612
00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:01,000
Speaker 1: of listening to someone and say, okay, I think this

613
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: is the point, there's an assumption here, and and then responding.

614
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: Another skill apologists need is responding gently and carefully and

615
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 1: I and I think philosophy can help with that because

616
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 1: philosophers tend to disagree all the time, and it doesn't

617
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: they're okay, They're okay.

618
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 2: With They also nuance certain things and don't overstate things exactly.

619
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 2: For my audience, a lot of your responses so far,

620
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: I wanted to see how you're like, there, I understand this,

621
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 2: there's something for spot this, there's pause about this. You've

622
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 2: given very charitable responses, which I think is wonderful and

623
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 2: which is what we try to hear. But I'll never

624
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 2: forget this one more story and then I'm going to

625
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: come back to some more questions here. When I was said,

626
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,240
Speaker 2: in an mfil program, we had a professor named Gary

627
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: Dewiz who is here for years, you know, Gary expert

628
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 2: in time. And I asked, I said, if we don't

629
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: have certainty about what truth is, how do we know

630
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: that truth even exists. He looked at me and he said, Sean,

631
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 2: is it possible that you're confusing metaphysics and epistemology. That's

632
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 2: all he said, And that opened up an entire realm

633
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 2: for me. I thought, Oh my goodness. The question is

634
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 2: not how do we know right and wrong? The question

635
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 2: is not can we be moral? That's not an interesting question.

636
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: The question is where does morality come from? Is it binding,

637
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: is it obligatory? Does it exist onto logically and metaphysically.

638
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: That unlocked an opening for me today. So historically, if

639
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 2: I can't tell a certain fact doesn't mean there's not

640
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 2: a truth about it. The lack of knowing or being

641
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 2: certain doesn't take away from the existence of truth, and

642
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 2: that is a nuance I go to all the time,

643
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,840
Speaker 2: Like even in questions today. So much of this debate

644
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: people are like, well, I can't tell of that individual.

645
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,240
Speaker 2: Is this person male or female? Doesn't mean the person

646
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 2: is not male or female. Doesn't mean there's not a truth.

647
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: Maybe it's because how somebody dresses or acts or whatever.

648
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 2: The reason is. The fact that I'm not sure about

649
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: something doesn't mean there's not truth. That was a game

650
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: changing thought. I could tell many, many more.

651
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: Well, let me comment on that, because it's crucial to

652
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: recognize that certainty is kind of a subjective confidence, and

653
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 1: that goes up and down with how many slices of

654
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,680
Speaker 1: pizza did I eat last night? Right, my confidence goes

655
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: up and down for many reasons, and that is not

656
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: a reliable indicator of the strength of the object of

657
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: my faith. And so sometimes we're trying to get something

658
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 1: out of certainty that really doesn't belong there. You can say, well,

659
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: of course I could be wrong about this, but boy,

660
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 1: this seems like really good evidence, and I'm holding this

661
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:09,520
Speaker 1: view of whatever the topic is.

662
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 2: That's such a good nuance. Certainty is really just about

663
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 2: my own psychological confidence. You can be certain and right,

664
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 2: you can be certain and wrong, you can be uncertain

665
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 2: and right, you can be uncertain and wrong. Exactly certainty

666
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: is neither necessary nor sufficient for having truth exactly. In fact,

667
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 2: on a lot of things, when somebody is certain, including myself,

668
00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 2: it's actually suspicious that where does that level of confidence

669
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: come from, except the claim that burning children alive for

670
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 2: fun is right. I am certain that that is wrong. Now,

671
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: I asked you that because I wanted to shift back

672
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 2: towards the moral argument. One that often comes up, and

673
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 2: someone has written about this is called the youth Afro dilemma.

674
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: Has taken us back to the Uthifro dialogue with Socrates

675
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: and youth of Row. I don't know, three centuries at

676
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 2: least plus before the time of Christ. Explain what the

677
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 2: Eutherfhroid dilemma is. And by the way, for those watching,

678
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 2: if you haven't heard of this, I know many of

679
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: my audience has. This comes up all the time in conversation.

680
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 2: And then give your response to it, if you.

681
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: Will, Okay, So briefly, Utherifro Socrates begins asking Utherfro for

682
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: his understanding of holiness or piety, and there's a context

683
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: for that which we won't get into, sure, And one

684
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: of the responses he gives is, what is pious is

685
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 1: what all the gods love? And then Socrates asked the question,

686
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:46,880
Speaker 1: which is the dilemma. Is it pious because they love it?

687
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,360
Speaker 1: Or do they love it because it's pious? And that

688
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: gets translated into contemporary monotheism by saying, is what's right

689
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: right because God commands it? Or does he command it

690
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: because it's right? And it's a dilemma because both horns

691
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: of the dilemma are supposed to lead us into a problem.

692
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 1: If God commands us because it's right, then it seems

693
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 1: right and wrong is independent of God. But if it

694
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: is right because He commands his commands, is what makes

695
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,280
Speaker 1: it right? Then you think he could have commanded anything.

696
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: It's arbitrary, And so that's the dilemma, and the assumption

697
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: is that the alternative is that it's the command, or

698
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,800
Speaker 1: you could say, the will of God that's doing the work,

699
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: rather than the nature of God. And so all the

700
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: way along in the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Testament, and

701
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: the Christian tradition, it's who God is that is the

702
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: ground of what's good, and God commands in accordance with

703
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: his character. So his commands aren't arbitrary at all. He

704
00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: commands in terms of what his good purposes are. And

705
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 1: so some of his commands are very specific, but they're

706
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 1: not arbitrary, right, they keep holy the Sabbath. Well, it's

707
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: not arbitrary because it's consistent with His goodness and honor

708
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: your father and your mother. It's consistent with his goodness.

709
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: So it's not that, Oh, I wish God had commanded

710
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: me to ignore my father and my mother, and he

711
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: could have. Why didn't he do that? Well, so the

712
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: dilemma goes away pretty fast once we see that goodness

713
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: is grounded in the in the nature of God.

714
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 2: This is such an interesting dilemma. I think you captured

715
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 2: it well. That if something if God commands something because

716
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:58,040
Speaker 2: it's wrong, there's a standard outside of God. If something's

717
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 2: wrong because God commands it arbitrary, So whether there's something

718
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 2: above God or morality's arbitrary. And what happens is we

719
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,640
Speaker 2: want to split the horns of the dilemma, so to speak,

720
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 2: and say it's not A or B, it's actually C exactly.

721
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 2: And a Christian response has this built into and of

722
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,319
Speaker 2: course this came three centuries roughly after the time of

723
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 2: Plato and Socrates, but built into it is that God

724
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 2: is good, God is just, God is holy, just like

725
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 2: the number two is essentially even, and it's an integer.

726
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 2: God is essentially good. That's what it means to be

727
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 2: God exactly, and his commands flow from his decision rooted

728
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 2: in his good moral character. So the dilemma is escaped.

729
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 2: I actually had on this channel on Michael Schumron. I

730
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe eight, ten, twelve months ago. I sent

731
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: you the link when it was out. We did a

732
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 2: response to it, now that I think about it, and

733
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: he raised this objection and I said, here's my response.

734
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: Tell me what you think. He paused, and he goes, yeah,

735
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 2: I think that works.

736
00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 1: Had we moved on, Oh my gosh, Okay, please don't

737
00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: bring this up again.

738
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 2: You may say that I wanted to. I was tempted to,

739
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 2: but I don't know. If it doesn't work and you're

740
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 2: hearing the comments, let us know. But I think it

741
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: at least minimally avoids that dilemma. Now here's a great

742
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 2: one on morality. I'll be honestly.

743
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 1: One of the.

744
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: Arguments that William Lay and Craig made was about the

745
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 2: applicability of math. Right, that's a little bit above my

746
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: pay grade to wane into some of the details that

747
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 2: I haven't spent the time studying that. So let's do

748
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 2: one more morality. Then maybe we'll shift to one of

749
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,319
Speaker 2: the other arguments, because this one popped up Tilly Greenwood

750
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 2: eighty three. He says, why does objective morality have to

751
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 2: come from God? Why not a result of evolution? No,

752
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 2: I have some thoughts on this. Do you want to

753
00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 2: wane or do you want me to lead? You tell

754
00:46:59,560 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 2: me what.

755
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 1: I'll say a few things, and then I want to

756
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: hear your thoughts. So the evolutionary theory of morality goes

757
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: something like this, that that along the developmental scheme. Now

758
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: we're talking about evolution with a capital e, no guidance,

759
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 1: unguided evolutions.

760
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 2: So some kind of neo Darwinian nondistic story that accounts

761
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: for all the complexity and diversity without God. That's about

762
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: what's always meant by evolution. But presumably that's but.

763
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, because otherwise, if you have a theistic evolution, it

764
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: wouldn't be an objection to God being the author of

765
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: real So so and then what happens in the development

766
00:47:38,239 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: is is certain communities of what you might call proto humans,

767
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: which I don't know what that means, but it's a

768
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: cool word. So you should always use it right, learned

769
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: how to cooperate together, and those communities survived better. And

770
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:59,279
Speaker 1: so the survivability was not a function of individuals but

771
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: community in partially in virtue of their cooperation. So an

772
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 1: instinct to cooperate was selected for and gets passed down. Okay,

773
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:15,520
Speaker 1: and so we had this deep punch to cooperate and

774
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: treat others with respect. Now, the problem with the evolutionary

775
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: explanation of morality is it doesn't explain morality. It explains

776
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,320
Speaker 1: why we might have developed into the kind of people

777
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 1: that had moral feelings, but it says nothing about real morality,

778
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 1: objective morality. All it says is this is how we

779
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: became the kind of people that thought sharing was better

780
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: than being selfish, cooperating was better than being a radical individual.

781
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: And and but there's no grounding for objective morality. So

782
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 1: you could get a prudential value system out of it. Look,

783
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 1: it's good for the human race to survive if we

784
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: co operate. Now, one of the other problems with it

785
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 1: is the human race has survived pretty well. We don't

786
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 1: need those rules anymore to survive. Right, nothing you do

787
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,880
Speaker 1: or I do is going to damage the survival prospects

788
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 1: of the human race. So the purpose is no longer

789
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: germane to the story. So that's a kind of a

790
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: quick take on it. But I'd love to hear what

791
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 1: you think.

792
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,240
Speaker 2: That's great. So I want to read the question carefully,

793
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 2: and I have the advantage of having it in front

794
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 2: of me. It says, why does objectoriality have to come

795
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: from God? My answer is not that it has to,

796
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 2: but God offers the best explanation for objective morality. Now

797
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 2: what do we mean by objective morality? We mean by

798
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 2: objected morality that there are certain moral truths embedded in

799
00:49:55,480 --> 00:50:00,440
Speaker 2: the world in a real way that are not mind pendent.

800
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 2: So the gray gansel is a certain age has a

801
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,000
Speaker 2: certain way. You don't have to tell us either of those.

802
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: There's they're both larger than they should be.

803
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 2: Well believe it. There there's a mind independent truth about that. Ye, history,

804
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 2: there's a mind independent truth. Math, there's a mind independent truth.

805
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 2: Objective reality says, there's mind independent.

806
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 1: Moral truth exactly.

807
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 2: And so if I, if you and I say we're

808
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: gonna agree that tubasu Eak goals five, we're objectively wrong

809
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 2: because there's a truth outside of us in the object

810
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 2: not the subject. Well, if everybody agreed that the Holocaust

811
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: was right, it would still be wrong. Objectively speaking, that's

812
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 2: what we mean by objective from rality. Exactly, it's a

813
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,279
Speaker 2: feature of the world, as opposed to a feature of subjects.

814
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 1: Or maybe a feature of reality. Feature of the reality

815
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: the world makes it seem like it's a physical thing.

816
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, yeah, fair enough, we can leave

817
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,920
Speaker 2: it at that. I agree with that. Okay, So what

818
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 2: other candidate can ground, for example, free will that we

819
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 2: have choice? Morality assumes that we can make choice when

820
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:18,839
Speaker 2: I say you should do this and not do that,

821
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 2: As con said, implies can what else grounds human value?

822
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 2: What else gives us moral obligations to behave a certain way?

823
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 2: Moral obligations come from an adequate authority. So let's back

824
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 2: up and try to explain those three things by evolution.

825
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 2: How exactly does evolution give us free will? Now we

826
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 2: can spin a story that once you have free will,

827
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 2: it gives you an evolutionary advantage. But now we're back

828
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:54,120
Speaker 2: to the anthropic principle of basically saying, well, I shouldn't

829
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 2: be surprised that I'm here because I couldn't exist the universe,

830
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:01,600
Speaker 2: for which is not fine tuned. It doesn't actually explain it.

831
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 2: There is no and I'll be dogmatic about this, there

832
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:11,400
Speaker 2: is no adequate evolutionary explanation to explain how material beings

833
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 2: can become free. This is why Michael Schumer's like it

834
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 2: kind of pops into existence. It's an emergent phenomena, and

835
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:22,479
Speaker 2: we debated that people can listen to it. What about

836
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 2: human value? Where does human value come from? On evolution?

837
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: I don't know how some physical process generates something immateial

838
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:36,839
Speaker 2: like value. And third, obligations, where does that come from?

839
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:37,120
Speaker 1: Now?

840
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 2: On evolution? At best, we could feel like we have

841
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 2: free will, we could feel like we have value, we

842
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 2: could feel like we have obligation. But all those are

843
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,799
Speaker 2: tricks being played on us to get us to survive

844
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: and don't actually ground objective morality. By the way, Darwin said,

845
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 2: I don't have the quote in front of me. I

846
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: have to find it. But he kind of made a

847
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,319
Speaker 2: reference about the beehives, like, if you know, if we

848
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 2: had evolved differently, we would act more like bees the

849
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 2: way they treat other hives and the way we consider inhumane.

850
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 2: In other words, saying evolution is an accidental process and

851
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 2: if we were around the clock. We might have very

852
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 2: different moral prescriptions about what we think is right and wrong,

853
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,919
Speaker 2: which tells us that evolution by its nature is subjective

854
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 2: and it's whim to change and is not actually objective.

855
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 1: Well, the morality that you might derive from it is

856
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: going to be subjective. I mean, evolution is a theory

857
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: about what an objective phenomenon. I'm just doing a vocabulary thing.

858
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 2: You're a philosopher. Yeah, we have about an objective phenomena.

859
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,000
Speaker 2: But the question is grounding objective morality.

860
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: That's what it can't do.

861
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 2: That's what it cannot do by definition. All right, good questions.

862
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, we might have spent a little longer

863
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,279
Speaker 2: on that one than then we should have. That's on me,

864
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 2: all right. Skipping down to the bottom to see if

865
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 2: there's more specific questions here. Somebody said Sean McDow, can Ham, here,

866
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 2: Ross and others all had a debate that you should

867
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 2: be able to find on YouTube. Someone brought this out.

868
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 2: I think it was like fifteen or twenty years ago.

869
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,560
Speaker 2: I think Eric Covin was on that debate. I think

870
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:23,839
Speaker 2: John Bloom, our colleague, was on that debate. I think

871
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 2: maybe Ray Comfort was there on TBN. This is bringing

872
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 2: back memories that was really interesting. Like twenty years ago,

873
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 2: somebody says I'm a Young Earth. I'm in the Earth

874
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 2: camp with can Hammon, Answers and Genesis. Thanks for watching.

875
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 2: Would you be willing to invite Kim on the podcast

876
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 2: for respond debate William land Craig or you. I'm not

877
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 2: interested in debating anybody on the age of the Earth.

878
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 2: That's not a topic that I spent a lot of

879
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 2: time weighing into. I doubt William lane Craig would want

880
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,319
Speaker 2: to have that debate with anybody on the age of

881
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:59,879
Speaker 2: the Earth. I've had William lane Craig on. I've had

882
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: two other shows with the Young Earth creationist you can

883
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 2: find who laid out his critique of William Lane Craig.

884
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 2: So my only point is I probably won't host that debate,

885
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,760
Speaker 2: but I have had both sides represented on my program.

886
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:17,320
Speaker 2: I've had William lane Craig more because he's a colleague

887
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,919
Speaker 2: and I love his work. But I distinctly have had

888
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,279
Speaker 2: some Young Earth creationists on to make their case and

889
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 2: offer critique and a different perspective than William Lane Craig holds.

890
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 2: Just for the sake of dialogue. So I'm not sure

891
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 2: i'd do it in the future again if I want

892
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 2: to focus there, but have done that certainly in the past.

893
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:41,919
Speaker 2: Let me see here deceive it. Oh, this is another mark.

894
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:44,440
Speaker 2: You got a ton of questions here, My man, these

895
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 2: are good. I see some other ones popping up.

896
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:50,399
Speaker 1: Better be an apologetic student, or he should apply he might.

897
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,399
Speaker 2: Let me see this one. I want to ask. Oh,

898
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 2: here's an interesting question. Okay, I'm going to ask you

899
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 2: this one, and I'm going to weigh in here too.

900
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 2: This is really interesting, by the way, Thanks for the

901
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 2: person who's young Earth creation and who's watching. Hope you

902
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 2: find value here. Okay. The parable of the Good Samaritan

903
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 2: in Luke ten is a model of morality. If it is,

904
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 2: why does God not follow it? God is like the

905
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:22,960
Speaker 2: priest and the Levite. God does leave injured people to

906
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 2: die by the roadside today. Now I can weigh in

907
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 2: with some thoughts here. Again, I don't want to throw

908
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,360
Speaker 2: all these on you, but if you want to jump in,

909
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:37,319
Speaker 2: you decide. I'm okay. So the parable of the Good

910
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:42,759
Speaker 2: Samaritan is a parable for people to follow, namely followers

911
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,560
Speaker 2: of Jesus. Of what it means and looks like to

912
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 2: love your neighbor. For us, how we navigate our relationships,

913
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:56,400
Speaker 2: we have duties that come from God's commands. These same

914
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:00,799
Speaker 2: duties don't apply to the God of the universe, who

915
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:06,760
Speaker 2: set everything up, sees the beginning from the end, sees

916
00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 2: every choice, doesn't have somebody giving him duties how he

917
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 2: is supposed to behave. So there are many times where

918
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 2: we can say, well, what is God like? We'll say, well,

919
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: a parent will help us understand God. So we can

920
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,160
Speaker 2: take some truths from our life and our example and

921
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:29,760
Speaker 2: relame to God. But they only go so far because

922
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 2: we're finite. God is infinite. We don't know everything. God

923
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 2: knows everything. We're in you know, you know the infinite

924
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:40,520
Speaker 2: differences between the two of us. So I don't think.

925
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 2: In fact, if God stopped everybody from ever suffering, the

926
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 2: world would quite literally end. We couldn't have free will

927
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 2: and life and follow him. We'd also lose what it

928
00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 2: means for us to grow and mature and develop as

929
00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:02,640
Speaker 2: human beings and express His love because God is doing

930
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 2: all of that for us. That's a few things that

931
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 2: come on my mind. I've never heard the question phrase

932
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 2: like this, but agreed discree. What would you add to eak.

933
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: I think what you're saying is absolutely right. I think

934
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 1: there are a couple of things. One in the story

935
00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: which is a parable right. The priest and the Levite

936
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,960
Speaker 1: have one chance to help, and the Samaritan has one

937
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: chance to help. But in the story of God's dealing

938
00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 1: with the world, a person in needs story is not

939
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:38,439
Speaker 1: over with one chance. Furthermore, our stories are not over

940
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 1: when this life ends. And there's there is promise for

941
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: followers of Jesus that we will be healed and we

942
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: will be restored in the new heavens and the new Earth.

943
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: But but this winds up being a subset of the

944
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: problem of evil question, it is right, So why does

945
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: God step in here and not here? The fundamental answer

946
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: is in a particular case, I don't know why. But

947
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 1: does that by itself constitute good evidence that God isn't

948
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: good or God doesn't exist? And there's been a ton

949
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 1: of work done on the problem of evil?

950
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember the oh sorry, I cut you off,

951
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 2: go for it. I remember the first time when I

952
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 2: was in college at this thing called a communication seminar.

953
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 2: I was a sophomore maybe junior here at Biola and

954
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 2: it was six weeks with Crewe, and they'd set us

955
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 2: on this panel and then the crew staff would grill

956
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 2: us to get us used to answering tough questions. And

957
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 2: I hadn't even graduated undergrad, let alone Talbot, I think

958
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 2: at this point, and I remember one of the professors

959
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 2: is like, you have a duty to stop somebody who's drowning.

960
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 2: And if you don't, think you're morally bankrupt. God watches

961
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 2: people drown every single day and does nothing. Are you

962
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 2: better than God? And I sat there, Greg was like, next,

963
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 2: I had no respect, and it kind of haunted me.

964
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 2: And I think it's a fair question. The problem of

965
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 2: evil is the most emotion filled and fair logical challenge

966
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 2: to God's existence that we have to concede. There's a

967
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 2: lot of things we don't know an answer to, and

968
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 2: this would take us aside. But part of my response

969
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 2: is it's very different for human beings who live in

970
01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 2: this world to have an obligation to care for one another,

971
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:38,120
Speaker 2: where God wants us to learn learn how to love

972
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 2: and become more like his son, and God deciding every

973
01:00:43,240 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 2: time somebody's suffering, I'm going to step in and stop this.

974
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 2: That would completely change the world. And in fact, I

975
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 2: would lose free will every time I use free will

976
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:59,480
Speaker 2: to even do something not loving. So it's a fair question.

977
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 2: I don't always know why. God heals this person, doesn't

978
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 2: heal that person, saves this person, doesn't save that person.

979
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 2: But we can't have life anywhere like we do if

980
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 2: God were stepping in all the time and stopping things.

981
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:18,520
Speaker 2: So clearly God thought it was worth it for there

982
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 2: to be the kind of life that we have, which

983
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 2: includes giving us commands that he himself operates differently for

984
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: the larger collective. Good.

985
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: Well, and you can think of it this way. In

986
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: the Creation story, we're given a task be fruitful and

987
01:01:34,520 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: multiply fill the earth and subdue it. And so that

988
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: task is to build culture, to explore and build. But

989
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: we can only do that if the world is stable,

990
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:51,880
Speaker 1: and if God intervened miraculously is what we're talking about

991
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 1: in rapid motion, the world would be chaos and that

992
01:01:56,680 --> 01:02:00,080
Speaker 1: purpose would be lost. They'd be impossible for us to

993
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 1: have meaningful action in the world.

994
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 2: Well said, Greg, you are a great guest. Friends. We

995
01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 2: got a surprise coming Friday. I'm not gonna tell you

996
01:02:08,480 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 2: what it is, but when you see it, I think

997
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:13,240
Speaker 2: you're gonna go Oh, this looks like a fun conversation.

998
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:16,400
Speaker 2: Did not see this one coming with Sean. But if

999
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,520
Speaker 2: you enjoy these Tuesdays, I've been bringing to you live

1000
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 2: from tabat School Theology, Talbot faculty calling it Talbot Tuesday.

1001
01:02:23,960 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 2: Trying to take your live questions let me know comment below.

1002
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 2: You can send in your questions for this to Questions

1003
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 2: at Sean McDowell dot org. Make sure you hit subscribe

1004
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,959
Speaker 2: gives the thumbs up, Make a comment and share this

1005
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 2: with a friend. Greg ansel colleague, friend from Talbot. Thank

1006
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,720
Speaker 2: you for joining us today. Thank hey friends. If you

1007
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:50,760
Speaker 2: enjoyed this show, please hit that fall button on your

1008
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,720
Speaker 2: podcast app. Most of you tuning in haven't done this

1009
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,200
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1010
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Speaker 2: reach and equip more people and build community. And please

1011
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 2: consider leeving a podcast review. Every review helps. Thanks for

1012
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 2: listening to the Sean McDowell Show, brought to you by

1013
01:03:06,600 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 2: Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where we have

1014
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 2: on campus and online programs and apologetic spiritual firmation, marriage

1015
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,840
Speaker 2: and family, Bible, and so much more. We would love

1016
01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 2: to train you to more effectively live teach and defend

1017
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 2: the Christian faith today and we will see you when

1018
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:24,120
Speaker 2: the next episode drops