1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Life audio spiritual warfare. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 2: Maybe when you hear that you kind of like shudder 3 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 2: a little bit, or maybe when you hear that, you're like, Okay, 4 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: let's dive into it. We're gonna be talking about that 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,080 Speaker 2: today with my friend Joel who wrote a book called 6 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 2: The Unseen Battle, and we're really gonna dive into all 7 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 2: of the theology, all the terminology, and more. So sit back, relax, 8 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: or buckle up for today's episode. 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: Hello. 10 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 2: Hello, Hello, ladies and gents, and welcome to this week's 11 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: episode of The Botton Beloved Podcast. 12 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: As always, it's your girl, Kirby Kelly, back at it again. 13 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 2: I hope you're having the happiest new year ever and 14 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:45,760 Speaker 2: to just like, I don't know, spur you on in 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: the new year. We're gonna be talking about spiritual warfare today. 16 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: You're probably like, girl, what, but maybe that's what twenty 17 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 2: twenty five like felt like for you? Or maybe you've 18 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 2: just seen so many posts about people talking about spiritual 19 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 2: warfare and like maybe that's even just an area of 20 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 2: fear and confusion for you, Like what does the Bible 21 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,400 Speaker 2: actually say about these things? I am so excited to 22 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,400 Speaker 2: be diving into this today, not just me, myself and 23 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 2: I but I have like someone who I look up to, 24 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 2: someone who I would consider is just like an academic 25 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: expert in so many like theological things. Who's joining me 26 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: to talk about this today because my guest. 27 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: Is Joel Minamale. 28 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 2: He came out with a book called The Unseen Battle, 29 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: Spiritual Warfare, the Three Rebellions and Christ's Victory over Dark Powers. 30 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: Wow, that is a very hefty, heavy topic. 31 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: But one that I think is so necessary for us 32 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 2: to dive into. So without further ado, that's what we're 33 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: gonna do. Joel, Welcome to the podcast. Can you just 34 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: briefly introduce yourself to the people who are listening today 35 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: who might not know who you are, and maybe tell 36 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:56,520 Speaker 2: them a little bit about like what you do and 37 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: what you're passionate about. 38 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Kraby, Well, thank you so much. It's such 39 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 3: a honor for me to be here on the podcast 40 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 3: with you and to hang with you. We've seen each 41 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 3: other in so many different environments and spaces. We've got 42 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 3: so many mutual friends, and I consider you a friend 43 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 3: as well, so it's such an honor for me to 44 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 3: be on the podcast with you. So my name is Joel. 45 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 3: I am. I just kind of refer to myself as 46 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 3: a Bible nerd. I just really love the Bible and 47 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 3: I love nerdy things about the Bible. And so I 48 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 3: work for a ministry called Proverbs thirty one Ministries. I 49 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 3: serve as director of Theology and Research there. So some 50 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 3: of you may know my boss. Her name is Lisa Turkhurst, 51 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 3: and Lisa and I get to do a lot of 52 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 3: fun things together. One of them is a podcast series 53 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 3: that we do called Therapy and Theology. And so somebody 54 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 3: are like, wait a minute, Joel, Proverbs thirty one, you're 55 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 3: a guy that's a woman's ministry. How does that work. Well, 56 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,119 Speaker 3: I don't know, but it's been ten years and it's 57 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:48,639 Speaker 3: been working and it's super fun. I actually think it's 58 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 3: part of God's sense of humor. When I came to 59 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 3: Proverbs ten years ago, we had three boys, My wife 60 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 3: Brittany and I had three boys, Liam, Levin and Lucas 61 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,839 Speaker 3: and now they're fourteen, twelve, and ten. And then five 62 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 3: years ago, on Valentine's Day, we had a little girl 63 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 3: and her name is Amelia Jane. And so it was 64 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 3: almost like I was preparing me to be hashtag girl 65 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 3: dad and so it's been a fun journey. I earned 66 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 3: a PhD in Biblical theology, and so I just really 67 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 3: love seeing the Bible as a one cohesive story, that 68 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 3: the Old Testament is anticipating the New Testament, the New 69 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 3: Testament is revealing so much of what's happening in the 70 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: Old Testament. And a particular area of my theology and 71 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 3: scholarship that I focused on my dissertation is on spiritual warfare, 72 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 3: particularly in Paul's language in Ephesians of powers, principalities, and authorities, 73 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 3: and I kind of argued that, like, hey, I think Paul, 74 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,240 Speaker 3: I don't think we know. Paul's a good Jewish boy, 75 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 3: and he was deeply rooted in the story of Israel, 76 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 3: and so when he's talking about these things, there's a context, 77 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 3: there's like a framework for what he's thinking about, and 78 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 3: I wanted to draw that out. And so The Unseen 79 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 3: Battle is in fact my dissertation that we reworked to 80 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 3: make it accessible because honestly, nobody in their moms wants 81 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 3: to read a dissertation. I don't even think my mom 82 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 3: read my dissertation. 83 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: I mean it's like maybe I would, yeah, yeah. 84 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 3: Career, like five percent of people that would be like maybe, 85 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 3: but this book is intended to be accessible to kind 86 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 3: of take big theological ideas and hopefully make them accessible 87 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 3: and relatable, because I really do think this is an 88 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 3: important topic. And I think that you know, you and 89 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 3: I live in a culture that is more attuned to 90 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 3: the things of the spirit than ever before. And so Christians, 91 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 3: I truly believe, through God's Word have the most coherent, 92 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: the very best answers for the questions that are coming 93 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 3: our way in terms of spiritual warfare and even things 94 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 3: like aliens, you know, and like and like pyramids and 95 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 3: like conspiracy theory stuff, and it's like you can go 96 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 3: sideways really quick, and actually the Bible is an anchor 97 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 3: for us so that not caught off guard by the 98 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 3: schemes of the enemy. And so this was a project 99 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:04,800 Speaker 3: I'm really passionate about. 100 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:06,239 Speaker 1: That's so awesome. 101 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 2: I love that you made something that is so academic 102 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 2: and biblical accessible to people, because even when I read it, 103 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 2: I was like, this is amazing, Like actually am following 104 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 2: the thread of the idea in which you are. 105 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:20,800 Speaker 1: I didn't even realize that this was part of your dissertation. 106 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 2: I think that puts a lot of like context to 107 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 2: everything too, but it's just very easy to follow. 108 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: And in the very beginning of your book you quote C. S. 109 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 2: Lewis about the dangers of either obsessing over the demonic 110 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 2: or ignoring it altogether. And I think that's like a 111 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,919 Speaker 2: good place that we can start a conversation today. And 112 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: I'm wondering, why do you think it is that the 113 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 2: modern church today? Maybe this is global, Maybe this is 114 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: just like from what we observe here in the West 115 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: at least. Why do you think we swing between these 116 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 2: two extremes when it comes to conversations around spiritual warfare 117 00:05:58,040 --> 00:05:58,799 Speaker 2: and the demonic? 118 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one is curiosity without limits, you know. 119 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 3: I think that whenever we get curious, but we don't 120 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: have any guardrails for that. Curiosity, our like human desire, 121 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 3: our flesh, our our like thirst for knowledge can really 122 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 3: captivate us in ways that is ultimately unhealthy for us. Like, 123 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,840 Speaker 3: as a side note, our access to information through our 124 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 3: phones like Instagram might be one of the most unhealthy 125 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 3: things that you and I have because we're constantly aware 126 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 3: of everybody and their moms and what they're doing, what 127 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 3: they're not doing. And it has actually skyrocketed anxiety for 128 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,839 Speaker 3: an entire generation because there was a time where you 129 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: only knew what was happening on your street, on your block, 130 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 3: you know, like you only knew what was going on 131 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 3: with like your close family friends, and you would actually 132 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 3: have to write letters to people. I don't know if 133 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 3: people know this, like you actually like took a pen, 134 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,160 Speaker 3: you know, a stale mail. 135 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: You know. 136 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 3: I remember when I way to college and I like 137 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 3: was so I would be so ready to get like mail, 138 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 3: like stale mail from people. All that to say, like 139 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 3: the Lewis quote is really important to me because I 140 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 3: think that what ends up happening in a culture today 141 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: is and I'm a product of it. I grew up 142 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 3: in a church tradition that was okay with like anything 143 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 3: related to the Holy Spirit in Jesus and that kind 144 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 3: of you know, his victory over sin and death. But 145 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 3: you start talking about demons, he's talking about territorial spirits 146 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 3: or the gods of the nations, and it's like, well, 147 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 3: you know, we don't need to be carried away with 148 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 3: any of that. We don't need to worry ourselves with that. 149 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 3: And here's my issue with that, Kirby, and it's this, 150 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 3: I'd love to kind of do a little bit of 151 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 3: a rhetorical question with people. I'd love for you guys 152 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 3: to assess my next statement and determine what part of 153 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 3: this is not cosmic in nature? That the very core 154 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 3: of our faith as Christians, that you and I believe 155 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 3: that Jesus is the actual son of God, he is 156 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 3: God himself, that in the incarnation, he came into humanity 157 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 3: through virgin birth, he took on humanity without losing an 158 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 3: ounce of his divinity. He lived a perfect life, He 159 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 3: died on a literal Roman cross, defeated sin and death 160 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 3: through three days, rose again on the third day, hung 161 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: out for forty days, just to prove the point and 162 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 3: then ascend it to the right hand of the Father. Like, 163 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 3: what part of that is not cosmic in nature? Yeah, Like, well, 164 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 3: all of it, the whole thing is God. And so 165 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 3: it's like I always find a fascinating like, oh, the 166 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 3: very crux of the faith that we hold on to, 167 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 3: like Jesus himself, is that this is what all of 168 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 3: Ephesians and Colostions is about, the cosmic King of heaven 169 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 3: and Earth. And yet we live in a world that 170 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:32,959 Speaker 3: has the big kind of fancy term in academic circles 171 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 3: is called de mythologized. We have kind of stripped the supernatural, 172 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 3: cosmic element out of the story of Scripture. And I 173 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 3: think part of that is because of our post Enlightenment 174 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 3: kind of twenty first century desire for science and knowledge, 175 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 3: and in that we're missing something really significant. And so 176 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 3: why I love the Lewis quote is because Lewis brings 177 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 3: us back to balance, and he brings us back to 178 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 3: perspective and orientation. And so the goal of my book 179 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 3: of the Unseen Battle is not to encourage you into 180 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: obsessive tendencies to follow the rabbit hole of New Age 181 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 3: mysticism or astrology. It's actually quite the opposite. It's actually 182 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 3: to create guardrails. And think about did Army four nineteen, 183 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 3: which is like, hey, by the way, don't look to 184 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 3: the stars in heaven and bet need of them, don't 185 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 3: follow after those things, like you don't need to do 186 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 3: that because you follow Yahweh, you follow the uncreated creator 187 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 3: of heaven and earth. And so the goal is awareness 188 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 3: without obsession. The goal is to know the schemes of 189 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 3: the enemy so that we're able to rightly stand against it, 190 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 3: to discern between what is right and what is almost right, 191 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 3: and then to walk in the fullness of the power 192 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 3: and the victory of Jesus. And so our perspective is 193 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 3: the perspective of Jesus' victory on the cross. So we 194 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: come to this conversation in confidence, not in a place 195 00:09:58,440 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: of like chaos or concern. 196 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: And really, that's so good. 197 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 2: There's like ten questions I have off of that alone, 198 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: everything that you just said. Let's let's start with Let's 199 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 2: back it up to Genesis, because I want to bring 200 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: it back to Jesus. But I think it begins in 201 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 2: Genesis when we look at the major rebellions that you 202 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: detail in the book, with Genesis three, Genesis six, Genesis eleven. 203 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 2: I think a lot of Christians are familiar with the 204 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 2: fall of humanity in Genesis three, but Genesis six, you know, 205 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 2: in Babbel, those things are often glossed over. Why are 206 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 2: these moments so foundational to understanding spiritual warfare today? Because, 207 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 2: like you said, we can look at passages in Ephesians 208 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 2: and in the New Testament, and I think Christians can 209 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 2: kind of just like only linger there when it comes 210 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 2: to understanding or like forming a framework in theology of 211 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: spiritual warfare, but you begin with with Genesis Yeah, so 212 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 2: can you can you start there and kind of lay 213 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 2: that foundation down for us? Yeah? 214 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely. So this actually comes from my doctor Earle, advisor 215 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 3: of the late great doctor Michael Heiser, And I remember 216 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 3: once I was in a class with Mike and Mike 217 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 3: said something it like absolutely struck me. He's like, Hey, 218 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 3: if you were to ask somebody today, why is there 219 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: so much evil in the world, what would the average 220 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 3: Christians response be, And it'd be like, well, the Fall 221 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 3: Genesis three. And then Mike said, well, actually, if you 222 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 3: asked that exact same question to a person living during 223 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 3: the time of the Second Temple. So it's kind of 224 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 3: like the what we call the four hundred years of 225 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 3: Silence was like anything but silent. For the actual Israelites 226 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: in that time period, They're writing a lot, They're trying 227 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 3: to figure out what is going on? Why are they 228 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 3: in the midst of this oppressive reign of Rome? Like 229 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 3: all this stuff is happening in the time of the 230 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 3: Second Temple. So if you ask an israel who's living 231 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 3: around that time, they would say, well, yeah, Genesis three, 232 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 3: but hey, don't forget Genesis six, because there was something 233 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 3: that necessitated the flood, by the way, And also don't 234 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 3: forget Genesis eleven, because you know this whole issue of 235 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 3: the gods of the nations, like, there's an origin story 236 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 3: to that as well. And so the reason why I 237 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 3: framed the beginning of the book around these three rebellions 238 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 3: is because it actually points us back to this idea 239 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 3: that in the ancient world there was never a separation 240 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 3: between what is spiritual or unseen and what is earthly 241 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 3: or what is seen. And so today we like to 242 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 3: put like the spiritual stuff on one shelf and we 243 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 3: like to put the earthly stuff in the other shelf. Well, 244 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 3: in the world view of the ancient reader, they saw 245 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 3: both of those things together. And so as you read 246 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 3: through it, you'll find, oh, in Genesis three, you've got 247 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: a spiritual conflict that's happening and playing out in the 248 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 3: earthly realm. Here's a serpent and Nakash, which is actually 249 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 3: I would argue a angelic being a cherby most like 250 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 3: likely that deceives Eve. You ever wonder, kribe, why does 251 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:01,719 Speaker 3: Eve not out when a serpent starts talking to her? 252 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 2: No? 253 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 3: Literally though, right like you if we just read it 254 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 3: with like normal like wait a minute. If I'm Eve, 255 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 3: I'm like, Yo, this is whack. Why is the serpent? Like, 256 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 3: I can't even get past the serpent talking before I 257 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 3: get to it? Right, So why is it that Eve 258 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 3: is just like cool, She's like, oh yeah, let's have 259 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 3: a conversation. Well, because Eve is actually not surprised by 260 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 3: the appearance of the serpent, because she's used to spiritual 261 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 3: beings coming and going on Mount Eden. The issue, and 262 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 3: this is an issue of spiritual warfare. This is an 263 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 3: issue of discernment. This starts writing Genesis three. The issue 264 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 3: is not the appearance of the serpent. The issue is 265 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 3: the substance of the words that come out of the 266 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 3: serpent's mouth. And so, because Eve is familiar with the serpent, 267 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 3: she actually places herself and Adam in a posture to 268 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,599 Speaker 3: be deceived by the serpent. So you have spiritual conflict, 269 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 3: earthly consequence, earthly consequence conflict. Genesis six, You've got the 270 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,960 Speaker 3: sons of God, which in my book I make a 271 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 3: defense for the Son of God being angelic beings. The 272 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 3: phrase sons of God bene Eloheim is the exact same 273 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 3: phrase that's used in Job to describe the angelic host. 274 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 3: The sons of God who shout for joy when all 275 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 3: of creation comes into existence. And so you've got these 276 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 3: sons like again, Vacation Bible School, Like, I don't know 277 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 3: any vacation Bible school that ever started their story like 278 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 3: day one of VBS. We're starting with Genesis six, verses 279 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 3: one through four. Like, if there's any church out that 280 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 3: has done this, kudos to you for tackling it. It's 281 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 3: like we left started Genesis six versus five, and there 282 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 3: was evil in the world and wickedness spread. It's like, 283 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 3: wait a minute, how did the evil get in the 284 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 3: world and how did the wickedness spread. That's the story 285 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: of Genesis six, verses one through four. The sons of 286 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 3: God who have an unholy union with the daughters of man, 287 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 3: and it creates these nepheline, these hybrid giants that are 288 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: connected later on through the scriptures to these kings. There 289 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 3: were giant kings and clans. This is what Joshua is 290 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 3: dealing with with the conquest. This is why David and 291 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 3: Goliath is so significant, because Goliath is Goliath from Gath, 292 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 3: whereas Goth Gath is one of the giant clans. So 293 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 3: when David defeats Goliath. He's actually dealing with the issue 294 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 3: of the netflix, like this is what necessitates the flood. 295 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,280 Speaker 3: And then there's this Nachic tradition. The Book of Enoch 296 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 3: gives a little bit of background commentary to how the 297 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 3: ancient Israelites would have understood what actually took place in 298 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 3: those first four verses. And then Genesis eleven is last one, 299 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 3: and this is the Tower of Babel, and you really 300 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 3: have to read Genesis eleven in light of Deuteronomy thirty two, 301 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 3: eight and nine, And if you're in the ESV translation, 302 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 3: it talks about the sons of God who are appointed 303 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 3: to the nations of the world as stewarts, and God 304 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 3: shose Jacob Israel as his allotted inheritance. And that's really 305 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 3: important because once again we have this idea that God 306 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,479 Speaker 3: is a good king and there has to be consequence 307 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 3: for sin, and so as a consequence, he disinherits the 308 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 3: nations and gives them to the sons of God as stewarts. 309 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 3: Language is really important as stewards to guard them and 310 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: protect them until he reclaims them back into his family. Well, 311 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 3: these angelic beings, they go into full blown blown rebellion 312 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 3: because they accept human worship. This is that did Army 313 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 3: four nineteen issue. And in so they become the gods 314 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 3: of the nations, which is the backdrop of the entire 315 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 3: conflict of the Old Testament is God then sends Abram 316 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 3: Genesis twelve, the Abrahamic Covenant, to be a blessing to 317 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 3: the nations out to reclaim the Promised Land, and guess 318 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 3: what along the way to invite the nations back into 319 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 3: the family of God. Even this is spiritual and earthly, 320 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 3: and so the point is what we want to separate 321 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 3: as spiritual always has an impact on the earthly consequence 322 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 3: of spiritual warfare, which I think hopefully will bring some 323 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 3: clarity to a lot of the issues that we're dealing 324 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 3: with in today when it comes to spiritual warfare. 325 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I love that you talk so much throughout 326 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 2: the book about this idea of the gods of the 327 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 2: nations and even like allotting the nations and all of 328 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 2: those things, And when you get to the point in 329 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,680 Speaker 2: your book where you're talking about Christ's victory over dark powers, 330 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 2: you describe Jesus as announcing judgment on the gods of 331 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: the nations, And could you dive into that, like just 332 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,440 Speaker 2: for even a minute, like what does that mean biblically 333 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: and how should Christians understand that without drifting into like 334 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: a place of fear speculation. 335 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, So, Like the place that I would go to, 336 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 3: which I think is like the most epic place, is 337 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 3: this passage in Psalm in the Psalms, and it's Psalm 338 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 3: eighty two, And so I'm going to just jump there 339 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 3: really quick for us. And so in Psalm eighty two 340 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 3: you find this Divine council. Scenes I'll read it. It says, 341 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 3: any too, God has taken his place in the divine 342 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 3: council in the midst of the gods. He holds judgment. 343 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 3: So God Alohim Yahweh, is the uncreated creator and he 344 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 3: has created every thing, and he's sitting in judgment in council. 345 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 3: And then it says this, and he's talking to these 346 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 3: other Alohim, to these fallen sons of God. He goes, 347 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 3: how long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to 348 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 3: the wicked? And then he says, like, this is what 349 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 3: you were supposed to do. Give justice to the weak 350 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 3: and the fatherless, to maintain the right of the afflicted 351 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 3: and the destitute, to rescue the weak and the needy, 352 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 3: to deliver them from the hand of the wicked. And 353 00:18:24,960 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 3: then he says they have neither knowledge nor understanding. They 354 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 3: walk about in darkness. All the foundations of the earth 355 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 3: are shaken. And then this is Yahweh proclaiming to them. 356 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 3: I said, your gods, your sons are the most high 357 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 3: all of you. Nevertheless, like men, you shall die and 358 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 3: fall like any prince. Well, if you read the minor prophets, 359 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 3: what's the major issue of the minor prophets through Amous 360 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 3: and Obadai? Like all these folks Malachi, what are they 361 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 3: dealing with? Injustice? 362 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 2: Wickedness? 363 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 3: The gods of the nations and the people following after 364 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 3: the Asherahs and the bales and and Dagone and these 365 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 3: these deities. And notice verse eight. This is what is 366 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: so epic to me. In verse eight, Like the way 367 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:08,880 Speaker 3: that you ought to read Psalm eighty two, I think 368 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 3: is like a theatrical play. And imagine watching a play. Actually, 369 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 3: my wife and I just saw the Harry Potter like 370 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,119 Speaker 3: deal in New York and it was like one of 371 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 3: the most awful things. Yeah, and there's like the the 372 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 3: floor underneath it. You can't see what the heck's happening, 373 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 3: but all kinds of stuff is happening underneath it. It's 374 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 3: like it opens up and there's people coming out. It's 375 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 3: so wild. Well, imagine Salmaiti two kind of like that scenario. 376 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 3: And this entire time you're watching this, you see the 377 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 3: Kaiking and he's casting judgment on the fallen sons of 378 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 3: God and he's saying, how could you be so wicked? 379 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 3: You were supposed to do right and you didn't do 380 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 3: right right, And the entire time, off scene, there is Alohim. 381 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,920 Speaker 3: There is this son of God that's just waiting there, 382 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 3: and all of a sudden Verse eight says arise, Oh God, Arise, 383 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 3: Oh Alohem, judge the earth, for you shall inherit all 384 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 3: the nations. Well, who is this Alohim? I make the 385 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 3: art in my book that this is none other than 386 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 3: the pre incarnate Christ. This is Jesus. Will notice what 387 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 3: Jesus does in Ephesians two eighteen through twenty two, through 388 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 3: his death, real resurrection, and ascension, he tears the dividing 389 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 3: wall of hostility. Those who are far the gentiles are 390 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 3: brought back in near into the household of God, and 391 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:24,960 Speaker 3: Jesus inherits the nations unto himself, and in that he 392 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 3: actually casts judgment upon the sons, upon the gods of 393 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 3: the nations, as he is on a mission to reclaim 394 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 3: the people. Like every battle, Kirby has a prize in mind. 395 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,239 Speaker 3: So what is the prize for this unseen battle. It 396 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,959 Speaker 3: has always been about the people. It has always been 397 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 3: about the people. 398 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I feel like that's just like the biblical 399 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:47,440 Speaker 2: meta narrative, and you talk about that in the book, 400 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,040 Speaker 2: even just like the idea of family of like God 401 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 2: establishing this first family in Genesis with Adam and Eve, 402 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: but like even now those of us who are grafted 403 00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 2: in and adopted into the family of God, we use 404 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: that language still, this familial language. Yes, kingdom language, but 405 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: familial language of God being our Abba, our father. Uh. 406 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 2: You know, whether Jew or gentile, whether you have been 407 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 2: in the family, and Christ is the culmination of that 408 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 2: where you've been grafted in through your faith in Jesus. 409 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 2: But even beyond that, one of the most uh to 410 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 2: bring it back to Jesus, one of the most hopeful 411 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 2: threads throughout your book is that Jesus doesn't just forgive sins, 412 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 2: but he confronts and he defeats the hostile powers, as 413 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: you were kind of just talking about through through that 414 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 2: theatrical narrative that we live in the Psalms. So how 415 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 2: does that expand our understanding of the gospel? Knowing that 416 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 2: Jesus didn't just die to save us and graft us 417 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 2: into the family, but and to forgive us, but to 418 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,239 Speaker 2: also confront and defeat the hostile powers. Like, how does 419 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 2: that expand our view of the gospel? 420 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the way that it expands. So I 421 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 3: want to go back to what you said though, so 422 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 3: interesting as you you talked about kingdom and family and 423 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 3: so this is also like very much Ephesians. And this 424 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 3: goes into this is that in the Roman world, the 425 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 3: most important thing that anybody could have was Roman citizenship, right, 426 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 3: like if you could be a citizen of Rome, my gosh, 427 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 3: you're like that was like the acecar everything you made it. 428 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: You know. 429 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 3: The only thing better than being like a Roman citizen 430 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 3: was to be part of the household of Caesar, right, 431 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 3: Like you're a citizen who's now like a family member. 432 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 3: It's kind of like being friends with some kind of celebrity, 433 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,239 Speaker 3: you know, and like when you go to like an 434 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,720 Speaker 3: event that they're doing. It's like, oh, here's the b 435 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 3: ip pass. You just roll wherever you want you get 436 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,160 Speaker 3: do it. And it's like, oh yeah. And so what 437 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 3: Paul does very succinctly in Ephesians two eighteen through twenty two, 438 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 3: it's so fascinating. He starts first with political language verse nineteen. 439 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 3: So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but 440 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 3: your fellow citizens and saints. The Greek word agias it 441 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:55,400 Speaker 3: should be translated holy once saints in our English language 442 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 3: thinks just think purely like human humans that are saints. 443 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 3: But that Greek word hagyos, it has in mind holy ones. 444 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 3: It means not just humans, but also angelic, angelic hoast, 445 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 3: like that's what it means to be so together you're 446 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 3: citizens with the saints. But look at this members of 447 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 3: the Greek phrases oekost how they well, members of the 448 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 3: household of God. So you go from what the people 449 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 3: thought was like the most important thing, citizenship, and then 450 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,679 Speaker 3: it's like, by the way, you're something even more like, 451 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 3: you get something even more profound. You don't just get citizenship, 452 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 3: you get household membership. And as part of the member 453 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 3: of the household of God, you and I have responsibility 454 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 3: to live and enact the ethics of that kingdom, of 455 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 3: that household. 456 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 2: You know. 457 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 3: It's something I tell my kids all the time, like, hey, 458 00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 3: when you're out. It's something that my grandma used to 459 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 3: tell me when I would visit her in India. She'd 460 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 3: be like, hey, you're a representation of our family. Everywhere 461 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 3: you go, you carry that image, like you carry that name, 462 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 3: And that's the same thing. So how is this so important? 463 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 3: When we think about the Gospel and how Gesus confronts 464 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 3: the dark powers and disarms them. The primary means by 465 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 3: which the dark powers want to create confusion and chaos 466 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 3: in the world today is from blinding us from the 467 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 3: truth of who Jesus is. It's by creating chaos and 468 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 3: disunity amongst the family of God, amongst humanity, sowing seeds 469 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 3: of dissension. This is why you and I live in 470 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 3: a world of contempt. Like we have a society that 471 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 3: is more contemptful, I think than many societies before this 472 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,959 Speaker 3: political contempt, religious contempt. I mean, we can just go 473 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 3: on and on and contempt is like moving from I 474 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 3: dislike you, or it's uncomfortable, like I hate you. Right, 475 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 3: This is what the dark powers want. And so how 476 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 3: does the Gospel disarm this. The Gospel puts Jesus on 477 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 3: the cross, who the cross was the most contemptful thing 478 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 3: in the world, and Jesus absorbs the full weight of 479 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 3: sin and death. He takes on all the contempt on 480 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 3: himself so that he would be a bridge that unites 481 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 3: humanity back together. And so in Christ Jesus, we experienced 482 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 3: the love that we've always longed for. And as we 483 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 3: experienced that love, there's no space or place for contempt 484 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 3: to live. At least are there. There shouldn't be for 485 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 3: the people of God, you know. And so I think 486 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: it's important because it reminds us that ultimately the Gospel 487 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,880 Speaker 3: is about people, and it's about reconciling people to each other. 488 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 3: But the only people can be reconciled to each other 489 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 3: is first and foremost through God. And when Jesus disarms 490 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 3: the dark powers, he removes their ability to blind the 491 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 3: nations of the world to his truth, to the truth 492 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 3: of his son Jesus. Which is why you and I 493 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 3: the fascinating thing. You and I throughout the scriptures are 494 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 3: never called to seek out and fight demons, just don't 495 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 3: find it Ephesian six doesn't say, like find the corner 496 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 3: demon cult and you know, like fight them, Like that's 497 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 3: how it's a stand firm. So stand in the armor 498 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 3: of God. Why because the gospel itself is offensive. The 499 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 3: gospel itself is invading into dark spaces. So of course 500 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 3: you're going to be confronted with dark powers. If you're 501 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 3: faithful to the gospel, you don't need to see God 502 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,479 Speaker 3: the dark powers. And so I think this is so 503 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 3: important because it reminds us that you and I can 504 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 3: be confident in our gospel proclamation because the dark powers 505 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 3: can't blind humanity anymore. But you know who can be 506 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 3: blinded ourselves? Like we can blind ourselves, we can fall 507 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,879 Speaker 3: prey to addictions, we can fall prey to vices in 508 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 3: our world. Like this is where the dark powers love 509 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 3: to work. Now, they love to work in systems and structures. 510 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 3: There's a reason why pornography has skyrocketed. There's a reason 511 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 3: why technological advancement mirrors with pornography, which mirrors with AI. 512 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 3: And now, I mean, you're just watching this thing absolutely 513 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 3: go sideways because it's pushing us into disembodied experiences to 514 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,159 Speaker 3: believe that the good life is out there when the 515 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 3: entire time it's like, well, no, the good life is 516 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 3: the spirit of God that dwells inside of us, that 517 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 3: knits the family of God back together. And so I 518 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,920 Speaker 3: would say, all of that is why this is so important, 519 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 3: that's so good. 520 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 2: I kind of want to talk about There was a 521 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 2: few things, but just since we're getting towards like closer 522 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 2: towards the end of the podcast episode, I kind of 523 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 2: want to start to like land the plane here, because 524 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 2: you argue in your book that spiritual warfare is not 525 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:39,919 Speaker 2: primarily about like techniques or formulas. So what does like, 526 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: on a practical level, what does faithful resistance actually look 527 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 2: like in the everyday Christian life? Because like people are, 528 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 2: like you said, they are struggling with their addictions and 529 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 2: their vices and their dissensions and their disagreements. 530 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:54,719 Speaker 1: And all these things. 531 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 2: So what does faithful resistance actually look like? What can 532 00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 2: we practically do when it comes to. 533 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: Not seeking out to, like you said, fight the. 534 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 2: Demons, but when that spiritual warfare shows up at our 535 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 2: front door, it's like, well, what. 536 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: Do we do? 537 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, I've done such a good question. So I'm going 538 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:13,680 Speaker 3: to give an answer that it's so simple, but it's 539 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 3: far from being simplistic, and the answer is that you 540 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 3: fight spiritual warfare with the gifts of the spirit, with 541 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:26,280 Speaker 3: the fruit of the spirit. This is Galatians Chapter five. Love, joy, peace, patients, kindness, goodness, gentleness, 542 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 3: self control. Like, what does this actually practically look like? 543 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 3: I mean, this happened the other day. I'm out and 544 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 3: I'm traveling for something and I'm just like so annoyed 545 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 3: with this situation at the airplane, and you know, like 546 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 3: you want to see me kind of lose myself. I 547 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 3: don't believe you can actually lose that, but the idea like, like, man, 548 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 3: you see me lose it. It's like have travel delays 549 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 3: and then have people in the airport just that are 550 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 3: mean and contemptuous. And I remember walking in and there 551 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 3: was this mom and she just had these kids, and 552 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 3: I mean you could tell she's stressed out, and everybody's 553 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 3: just frustrated and they're trying to get past her and 554 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,239 Speaker 3: like push, and I'm like and honestly, this is just 555 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 3: like so honest with you, Kribby. I was annoyed. I'm 556 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 3: like like, come on, like get your act together, like 557 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 3: you know, And then in that moment, I'm like wait 558 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 3: like Britain, I have four kids. We have traveled just 559 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 3: like that, Like we have experienced that you see, like 560 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 3: empathy and compassion and wait a minute, like I can't 561 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 3: say I love Jesus and act like that. And so 562 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 3: it's like something very small. I just like waited, just 563 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 3: waited for her to go, you know. And it's like, 564 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 3: what does it look like to confront dark powers? Right there? 565 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 3: That's what it looks like. It looks like being patient, 566 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 3: it looks like extending love, it looks like being merciful. 567 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 3: I mean, it is the ceremonies, the beatitudes, you know, 568 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 3: and every time we do this we put on display 569 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 3: the winsome power of Christ's victory on the cross. But listen, 570 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 3: when you and I participate in the vices of the 571 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,800 Speaker 3: flesh man, we actually show ourselves to have are not 572 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 3: like we're not living actively in the power of Christ 573 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 3: that he wants to freely give to us. And so 574 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,720 Speaker 3: there is a real fight. It is both. I think 575 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 3: I like to think of it as three parts. It 576 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 3: is a real dark dark powers that are present, but 577 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 3: they're limited in time and space. They cannot be in 578 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 3: every place at all time. So I think they work 579 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 3: primarily in systems and structures. The secondary thing is the 580 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 3: reality of sin in the world. Like sin has despoiled 581 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 3: the world, it has created chaos, and we live in 582 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 3: a fallen world. So you've got natural disasters, you've got hurricanes, 583 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 3: and you've got like flooding that happens. I mean, that's 584 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 3: so painful. That's the presence of sin and evil in 585 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 3: the world. And the third thing is our own human flesh, 586 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 3: our own fleshly desires and sanctification is about aim and 587 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 3: ambition is recognizing that our aim is King Jesus, and 588 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 3: our ambition is to become like the one that we 589 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 3: are aiming for. And so while often spiritual warfare is 590 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 3: framed and like demon exorcism and all this other, and 591 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 3: I'm not denying that, I actually think that there's very 592 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 3: legitimate scenarios where that is. I just don't want us 593 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 3: to miss like the spiritual warfare of like being a 594 00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 3: gracious husband, loving your wife, well, like being a parent 595 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 3: who says sorry to their kids when they're rough and mean, 596 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 3: you know, like that is spiritual warfare as well. And 597 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 3: God cares about the whole of the human and that 598 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 3: includes every part of our human existence. 599 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 2: And when I think about like the beginning of the 600 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 2: word spiritual warfare, you get the word spirit. And to 601 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 2: go in line with what you said with Galatians, we 602 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 2: are called to walk in step with the spirit. And 603 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: so I think that's another way to just like check 604 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 2: ourselves in regards to the fruit of the spirit. Is okay, 605 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 2: am I walking in the Am I walking in step 606 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 2: with the spirit? 607 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: Am I actually abiding in Christ? Because the thing about 608 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: the fruit of the Spirit is that it is a 609 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: fruit of the spirit. 610 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 2: It's not something that we naturally just like come up 611 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,239 Speaker 2: with out of our own efforts, our own striving, our 612 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 2: own manufacturing. 613 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: Because there are some days where. 614 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 2: It's hard to have patience, there are some situations where 615 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 2: it's like it's hard to love this person. But when 616 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 2: we are abiding in Christ, and I love love, love, 617 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 2: love the definition or the context that you just gave 618 00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 2: to sanctification. 619 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: Our ambition and what was it our ambition and our aim. 620 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: I love that because it's like when we are being 621 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 2: sanctified by Christ and pursuing Him and walking in step 622 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 2: with him after him, you know, alongside him, these things 623 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 2: begin to naturally bear in our life. The more that 624 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: we spend time with him being cultivated, and so to 625 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: anyone listening today who's like, yeah, I'm struggling in the 626 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 2: peace department, like kindness it's kind of hard right now, 627 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 2: or gentleness, it's not out of your own effort that 628 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 2: you are fighting an unseen battle. You need to pursue 629 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: Jesus and be cultivated by him, and through that there 630 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 2: will be natural fruit that will enable you to be 631 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 2: a light where it is dark. Just to put a 632 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 2: little cherry on top of what you said, love it, 633 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 2: but Joel, I love this book. I love everything that 634 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: you just said and that you dove into on our 635 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 2: podcast today, And I know that there is at least 636 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 2: one person out there that's like, this is so good 637 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 2: and I need to know more about it. Your book 638 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: is coming out January twenty seventh and is available for 639 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: pre order now. 640 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: Where can people check out your book? 641 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you can actually get the book pre ordered 642 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,160 Speaker 3: on Amazon and Barnes and Noble really wherever books are sold. 643 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 3: I think it's even available on like Christian Book in 644 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 3: different places like that, and so yeah, it's available all 645 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 3: the places the books are sold. And yeah, I'm really 646 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 3: excited about it, and I'm just grateful Kirby for your 647 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 3: willingness in your heart to have this conversation and to 648 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 3: equip the people of God. It's such an encouragement to me. 649 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 3: So I'm grateful for you. 650 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,680 Speaker 2: Hey, you wrote the book. That's the hardest part. Having 651 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 2: you come on that's a joy for me. So thank 652 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 2: you for taking the time to be on here, and 653 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 2: everyone who listened. 654 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: Like I said, I. 655 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: Link everything down below, so I will link his book 656 00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 2: down below. And you, like you said, you are involved 657 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: in a lot of stuff. You're with Proverbs thirty one ministries. 658 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 2: Is there anything else that you want to plug that 659 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 2: people can just like be on the lookout for. 660 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:20,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, actually, yeah, Actually, we just launched a new resource 661 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 3: with my friends from a podcast called Blurry Creatures. Yeah. 662 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 3: So it's called Stranger Theology and it's hosted on substack. 663 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 3: So it's like Strangertheology dot substack dot com. And it's 664 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 3: really a place for like theological training and insights and 665 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,880 Speaker 3: conversations where we kind of talk about these aspects of 666 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 3: the Bible, of the scriptures unseen realm conversations. And I've 667 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 3: got a team of kind of theologians and scholars who 668 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 3: are all contributing to it, and we're going through season 669 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 3: one in like the premium podcast we're doing. The topic 670 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 3: is called the Cosmic Mountain, and so we're tracing the 671 00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 3: mountain motif kind of from Genesis all the way through 672 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 3: the New Testament, and so that's super fun. 673 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: That's so cool. 674 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 2: Well, I love everything about that, So y'all got to 675 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 2: check that out. I will also be checking that out 676 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 2: for myself. But yeah, Joel, thank you again for taking 677 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 2: time to be on here, and to everyone who listened, 678 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 2: thank you for taking time to listen to this episode. 679 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 2: I hope it was an encouragement for you. I hope 680 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 2: that you feel just like theologically enriched after today's episode. 681 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 2: And if you have questions about anything, I don't want 682 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 2: to say google it, reach out to Joel read his book. 683 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:30,320 Speaker 1: Honestly. 684 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 2: You can also email me like maybe there was something 685 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 2: that we talked about today and you're like, I kind 686 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 2: of want to go a little bit more in depth 687 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 2: on that in another episode. You can email me at 688 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 2: Bought and Beloved at gmail dot com. It's all spelled 689 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 2: out Bought and Beloved. Or if you're just going through 690 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 2: a specific season of life, if you're reading and studying 691 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:50,080 Speaker 2: things in the Bible, and you're like, I need some 692 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 2: clarity on this. 693 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: Let me know. I'd love to just. 694 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,760 Speaker 2: Create content that really explains and helps you to debunk 695 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 2: and understand the Bible so that you can have a 696 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:02,879 Speaker 2: more informed theology, so that you. 697 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: Can have more love for the Lord and grow in 698 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: your relationship with him. 699 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 2: But I love you, guys, and I'll see you here 700 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 2: next week for another episode on bot Beloved on next 701 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 2: Tuesday or Wednesday, or whenever you listen to the next episode. 702 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: Job until then, I love you, guys. Bie. 703 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 2: For more life giving, faith based podcast just like this one, 704 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 2: check out lifeaudio dot Com, a proud partner of the 705 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 2: botan Beloved podcast