1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer. I'm joined 10 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: again by doctor Rshiesch Farmer and we're continuing our conversation 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: about Biblical manhood and today we're going to be talking 12 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: about redrawing the map. So last time we talked a 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: little bit about why the maps are failing, and the 14 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: maps are failing in part because they are inscribing really 15 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 1: a representation of reality that's rooted more in cultural ideas, 16 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: the reigning ideas in the moment, as opposed to mapping 17 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: out what it really means biblically to be a male 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: disciple of Jesus Christ. And so that's my fundamental thesis 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: that's sort of where we've been pursuing, and now in 20 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: this episode, we're going to talk a little bit about 21 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: redrawing that map and what that looks like, and so 22 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: to do that, one of the places we're going to 23 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: look today is Matthew six. Matthew six is a passage 24 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: that I've reflected on a couple other places at different times. 25 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: But part of the reason I really like it is 26 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: because Jesus is explicitly teaching his disciples something here he's 27 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: walking around with him. What sort of the scene you 28 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 1: sort of get is he's teaching them and he's looking 29 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: out and he's seeing these different practices that are being 30 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: done by the hypocrites and then the gentiles, and so 31 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: with regard to the hypocrites, he sees them giving praying 32 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: and fasting inappropriately, and he doesn't reject the practice. It's 33 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: not like he tells the disciples, okay, prayers out because 34 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: they've screwed it up for you. You can no longer pray anymore. 35 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: What he says is, look at how they're doing it, 36 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: and do it differently. And then he looks at prayer, 37 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: look at how they're doing it, and do it differently. 38 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: In each case, especially with the hypocrites. What he's trying 39 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: to get the disciples to understand is that these hypocrites 40 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: are using the practices of prayer, giving and fasting, or 41 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:23,239 Speaker 1: actually in the passage giving prayer and fasting. So they're 42 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: using these in order to gain standing within the community. 43 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 1: So the practices are ordered to the powers that be 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: in the world. And what Jesus is telling his disciples is, look, 45 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: don't use these practices in that way. The way you 46 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: want to use them is to order them toward the 47 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: power that is God, and let God reward you. Use 48 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: these practices as a way to honor Him, as a 49 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: way to live out life in the kingdom. Don't use 50 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: them in order to gain standing in the world. Now, 51 00:02:56,800 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: how does that relate to the masculinity conversation we've been having. 52 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: I would argue that many times what we're looking at 53 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: when we look at the literature on biblical manhood, we're 54 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 1: actually looking at something more like what the hypocrites are 55 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: doing than what the disciples are told to do. That 56 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: these teachings are more in line with what it looks 57 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 1: like to be a culturally appropriate man and to be 58 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: seen as manly within the culture and to accrue whatever 59 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: benefit that might have as opposed to looking at this 60 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: and saying, what does it look like to be a 61 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: male disciple of Christ and to use our bodies, our 62 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: maleness for whatever language that might be in order to 63 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: serve and build the Kingdom of God. So that's sort 64 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: of the quick introduction to this, and we can dive 65 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: into a deeper or go a little different way Ashish, 66 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: but yeah. 67 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think an initial point to make I 68 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 2: appreciate that introduction to what's going on what we think 69 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 2: of as the Sermon on the Mount. An initial point 70 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: to make in this is even the way that you 71 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:09,640 Speaker 2: described it is instructive in so far as what we're 72 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 2: not trying to do. It could be very easy to 73 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 2: hear us and say we're saying down with any cultural articulation. Yeah, 74 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 2: that's actually the opposite of what we're trying to say. 75 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 2: We're trying to say, inevitably, we're making a cultural articulation, 76 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: a cultural interpretation. And the trouble is when we lose 77 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: sight of that. Well, as we look at the Pharisees 78 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 2: here and we look at the way that Jesus is 79 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: responding to them in Matthew six, and we compare that 80 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 2: to what he's trying to say to these other people. 81 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 2: It's it's worth noting that there's a cultural scenario at 82 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 2: play here. The people Jesus are talking to are the 83 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 2: ones that are the ones that the Pharisees have said, 84 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,360 Speaker 2: you're not living into Toron, you're not living into the right, 85 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 2: the right way of the Law of Moses. And at 86 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,279 Speaker 2: the same time they've elevated themselves. Right, we are the 87 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: ones look at us fall. It's a map, right, for 88 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 2: better or for worse. They've got a map, and they're 89 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 2: trying to tell these people, let's say, let's have the 90 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 2: most optimistic and charitable interpretation. The Pharisees are trying to 91 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 2: tell these people, stop doing what you're doing, do this instead. Yes, 92 00:05:17,440 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: and on that basic level, that's not the problem. But 93 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:24,720 Speaker 2: what Jesus is doing when he comes to them is 94 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 2: he's saying, you know, the overwhelming theme that comes through 95 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 2: in most of these sections of the Sermon on the Mountains, 96 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 2: you hypocrites, and you hypocrites are each time they're religious leaders, right, 97 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: And that's instructive to us because he's now speaking into 98 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: that same cultural setting to say that you've established a 99 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 2: map that elevates yourself at the expense of others and 100 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 2: deflates others to the elevation of yourself, right, right, So 101 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: the so the way to look at this passage, For instance, 102 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 2: at the beginning of chapter six, verse five, when Jesus says, 103 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: and when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites, 104 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues 105 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: and at the street corners, that they may may be 106 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have 107 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,039 Speaker 2: received their reward. But when you pray, go into your 108 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 2: room and shut the door, and pray to your father, 109 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 2: who's in secret, and your father's sees in secret, will 110 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 2: reward you. It can be very easily to principalize that 111 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 2: and say, and I've heard this done plenty with this 112 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 2: particular passage, and to say, therefore, what God is telling 113 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 2: us is that all of our prayers should be done 114 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 2: in the privacy of our own room, by ourselves, or 115 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 2: perhaps hiding in a closet. No public prayer. That's a 116 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: really odd thing. Then when you put that alongside what 117 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 2: Jesus's upper room discourses. Right, in many ways, it is 118 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: a gigantic prayer in front of others, or the way 119 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 2: that Paul is speaking to the churches, where he from 120 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: time to time even says pray with and for one another. Right, 121 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 2: he's he's he's inviting that corporate. So the idea here 122 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: is not to read this in an overly wooden way, 123 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 2: but to understand that when you have this dynamic, this 124 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 2: this harsh critique, you hypocrites, that what Jesus is trying 125 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: to do here is that these people who've been who've 126 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 2: been barred, who've been marginalized from being able to be 127 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 2: the ones who are praying with and in front of 128 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: the congregation. He's saying to these hypocrites, these religious leaders, 129 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,720 Speaker 2: maybe instead of critiquing them, be more like them. He's 130 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: flipping the switch right here, or flipping the script. Yeah, 131 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: I think he's I think you see the same thing 132 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: coming up later on in the sermon in the Mount 133 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: Chapter seven. This really interesting passage. I've heard it preached 134 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: a lot. You probably have aswell. James, uh enter by 135 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: the narrow gate, for the gate is wide and the 136 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 2: way is easy. That leads to destruction, and those who 137 00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 2: enter enter by it are many. Now what's interesting about 138 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 2: that chapter seven, verse thirteen is that you've got this 139 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: this gate that is narrow, and you've got this gate 140 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 2: that is wide. And then you've got this road that 141 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 2: is wide, and you've got this road that is narrow. 142 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: But when you get to verse fourteen, we move from 143 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:28,280 Speaker 2: nouns and adjectives to suddenly what Grammarians would call a 144 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: passive participle. So the idea here is most translations it 145 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 2: says something for the gate is narrow. What it actually 146 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 2: says in this passive voice is the gate has been 147 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: made narrow, which I think is significant. It shows sort 148 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 2: of the ways in which we've made these maps. We've 149 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 2: received these interpretations, we've made a map out of them, 150 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: and we've tended to treat this passage as a you know, 151 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: very few people are going to follow Jesus and make it. 152 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 2: And even those who say they're following Jesus, we're going 153 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 2: to critique them to know end, just make sure right, 154 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 2: and the Biblical managed conversation has been built into that. 155 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: It's been a map to say, be the right kind 156 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: of man, because if you're the wrong kind of man, 157 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 2: implicitly you're on that narrow path. But actually this is 158 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 2: a message about the Pharisees, the religious leaders. What they've done, 159 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 2: They've made something narrow which didn't otherwise need to be narrow. Right, 160 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 2: there's no reason to say that the gate that you 161 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 2: should follow, the gate of life, could also be wide. 162 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 2: It's sort of the idea there, which I find really instructive. Again, 163 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: it's it's a cultural interpretation. You can't but have a 164 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 2: cultural interpretation. And the question for our patterns, as we've 165 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 2: decided we're going to call them, is what does that 166 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,560 Speaker 2: look like now when we're talking about our environment, what 167 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: does it look like when we're talking about man. The 168 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 2: goal here is not to say we've created a cultural 169 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: man or men, or we're trying to say, you know what, 170 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 2: we've prioritized the ancient Near East men. What you need 171 00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 2: to do do is you need to figure out what 172 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: these hebrew Men wore at the turn of the of 173 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 2: the clocks from BC to a D whatever you call that, 174 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 2: and that's what you gotta wear, and that's what you 175 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: got to you gotta eat what they ate like. No, 176 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 2: it's understanding the pattern of the flipping of this switch. 177 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: This this very very intentional and harmful narrowing of a 178 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: scope which Jesus is bursting open here to say, you 179 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 2: know what, you marginalize people. You very much have the 180 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 2: ability to live in the way of life, and the 181 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 2: answer is not to do it in the way that 182 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: these religious leaders have told you. Well, the same sort 183 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 2: of thing can be done here right where we can 184 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 2: say this sort of very narrow scope of discussion of 185 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 2: biblical manhood can be opened up, and rather than saying 186 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 2: we reject manhood, we can say there's there's a variety 187 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 2: of ways to be a man that can be still, 188 00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 2: paths that honor what it is God has made us 189 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: to be. 190 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: James, Yeah, I mean, I think when we're looking at 191 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: these texts Matthew six and seven, and I think that 192 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: observation you made on Passage or on Matthew seven is 193 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: really interesting. But I mean, if we go back and 194 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: look at the Lord's prayer, right, this is it grows 195 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: out of this point that Jesus makes, like look at 196 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: how the Pharisees are praying, look at how the gentiles 197 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: are praying, and then the disciples, depending on which gospel 198 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 1: you're in, and Luke, they actually asked Jesus to teach 199 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: them to pray. Here he kind of volunteers it. Right, 200 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: Do not be like them. Why, for your father knows 201 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,319 Speaker 1: what you need before you ask him. So instead of 202 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: throwing up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, which you 203 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 1: get this impression that the Gentiles, just because they don't 204 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: know who God is, they don't really under stand ward 205 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,720 Speaker 1: they're serving. They're sort of doing the let's throw the 206 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: spaghetti at the fridge and see what sticks sort of 207 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: method of prayer here. And so you've got to throw 208 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: a lot of spaghetti against that fridge, right, because you 209 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: want some of it to stick, right, And Jesus is saying, 210 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: you don't need to do that because you know who 211 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:22,479 Speaker 1: your father is. But this mode of praying, I'm sorry, 212 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: your father knows you, right, That's why you don't have 213 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 1: to do this, because your father knows you. And so 214 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: I think that this mode of praying is instructive for 215 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: how we go about thinking about anything in our lives, 216 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 1: especially when we think about manhood. Our father knows who 217 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 1: we are, and so we have to enact the practice 218 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: of being male in a different way. And so you know, 219 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: as we look at this, this prayer that Jesus is 220 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: teaching them is like what for versus long it's almost nothing, right, 221 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: but it conveys so much about what it is to 222 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: be a follower of Christ. One of my favorite portions 223 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: of it. I mean, it's all really good, and I 224 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: do it real quick. But you know how it will 225 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: be your name, Your name is holy, your kingdom Come. 226 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. 227 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: There we have this dependence and desire for God's will 228 00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: to be done. There's a subtle subjection of ourselves to 229 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: God's will, not our will. We want God's will to 230 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: be done. Verse eleven, give us this day our daily bread. Look, 231 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: don't give us more than we can use. Right, give 232 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: us what we need in every moment. We're not praying 233 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: for prosperity. We're praying for sustenance. And there's a check 234 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: on our desires in that phrasing. And then you have 235 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: and forgive us our debts, as we have also forgiven 236 00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: our debtors. Now that's going to come up again in 237 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: verse fourteen and fifteen, so I'll kind of leave it 238 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: aside for the moment. And then in thirteen it lead 239 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: us not to tenation, but deliver us from evil or 240 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: from the evil one, depending on your translation. And so 241 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 1: this last stanza is, look, keep us from moving in 242 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: the wrong direction, keep us from having our desires misdirected. 243 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: When we get to the forgiveness and the forgiving of debts, 244 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: that's where we really see that if we know the 245 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: Father's forgiveness, we must also forgive others to the same status, 246 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: and so we're not holding grudges, we are actually forgiving. 247 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: And that gets into complex issues. But I would just 248 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: say there's a reflection of God that we are supposed 249 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: to have in the forgiveness of debts and the forgiveness 250 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: of debtors. That is reflective of who God is and 251 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: what God has done for us. And so even in 252 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: this little prayer, what we see is these are not 253 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: things that yes there's a cultural aspect to them, but 254 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: ultimately what we're trying to get away from is doing 255 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: the things exactly like the culture would want us to 256 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 1: do them. There's a formative aspect of this prayer that 257 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: Jesus is trying to get his disciples to understand. You 258 00:15:03,280 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: don't act like this in the culture. You act like that. 259 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 1: You move away from this sort of formation, this sort 260 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: of system, this sort of economics, this sort of whatever right, 261 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: this sort of relationship with your peers, and your neighbors. 262 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: You move away from all that and you move toward this. 263 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: And the prayer is intended, I think, to sort of 264 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: help shape the disciples and remind them that even in 265 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: the marginal situation that they're in, this sort of prayer 266 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 1: reminds them that they don't need much more than what 267 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: they have, that God is with them, and that these 268 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: practices of calling for God's will to be done, asking 269 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: for daily bread, forgiving of debts, and staying away from 270 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: evil are the crucial aspects that they need to be 271 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: thinking about as they move and breathe in a culture 272 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: that is hostile to them. And so there's this real 273 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: deep intermeshing of what Jesus is trying to teach the 274 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: people who are following him and the dangers that are 275 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: available in the culture around them. And I think part 276 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: of what He's trying to do here in Matthew six 277 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: has given them the resources to in my language, resist 278 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: that resist this compromise that could come if they decide that, hey, 279 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: my life is kind of horrible, I'm tired of being 280 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: on the margins. What I'd really like is to be 281 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: a pharisee. And what Jesus is trying to say is 282 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: don't do that, because that's not the goal, that's not 283 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: where you need to go. And so for our discussion 284 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: of masculinity manhood, I think we could say something very similar. 285 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: I think there are times when and I've felt this myself. 286 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: I'll give a little personal anecdote here real quick, but 287 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: when I first started as a vice president a dean, 288 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: I got a lot of stuff done, and I was 289 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: sort of I was very aggressive, and I would do 290 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: almost anything I needed to do to get done what 291 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: I need to get done done. Then I got an 292 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: executive coach who was like, you would not want to 293 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: follow someone who leads like you do, and she was right, 294 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: and so she started sort of shaving some of the 295 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,600 Speaker 1: rough edges off me. And what I realized was I 296 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: was losing a lot more battles, but I was feeling 297 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:25,159 Speaker 1: way better about it, Like I felt more like myself 298 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: losing than I did winning. And I think part of 299 00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: that was related to this idea that I just kept 300 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 1: accommodating myself and compromising myself to win as opposed to 301 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: being uncompromising in my integrity and refusing to win. And 302 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: so this is sort of the lesson that I think 303 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: is being taught or part of what's what we're seeing 304 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: here in chapter six is that sort of an idea, 305 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: is that the uncompromising faith that the disciples of Jesus 306 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 1: exhibit in the face of cultural pressure to be something 307 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: else is actually them winning. 308 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for that, James. You mentioned and meshing. Yeah, 309 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 2: and you've got to know where I'm going with that, now. 310 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: We'll see. 311 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: I love it. I think in meshing is exactly one 312 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 2: of the things, one of the patterns we're learning here. Yeah, 313 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 2: so you walk through the Lord's Prayer and the thing 314 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 2: that keeps coming up is it to the degree that 315 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: we can take from this a lesson about what it 316 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 2: means to be a human being, a theological understanding what 317 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 2: it means to be human being or a biblical if 318 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 2: you prefer that term, and within that to the degree 319 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 2: that we can then say, therefore, that tells us something 320 00:18:58,760 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: about for men how to. 321 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:00,040 Speaker 1: Be an. 322 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:06,400 Speaker 2: H The idea of and meshing is what keeps coming 323 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 2: up to me. But in the midst of that and meshing, 324 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: the reality of n meshing is that it requires us 325 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 2: to decenter ourselves. And I think the map that we 326 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 2: tend to usually see for all sorts of issues, not 327 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 2: just biblical manhood, but for our current purposes, especially Biblical 328 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 2: manhood has a very centering of the self, or centering 329 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: of a group effect, right, draws circle around this group 330 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 2: of people, and this is what you ought to be like. 331 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 2: But what we see here is a Jesus who who 332 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 2: teaches us to pray in a way, and we're enmeshed 333 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 2: with the Father, but we're decentering ourselves to the Father. 334 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: Yeah right, we're praying to the Father. And how would 335 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: be the name of the Father? And your kingdom come, Father, 336 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,639 Speaker 2: and your will be done, Father, which is in direct contrast. 337 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 2: I mean again, it's important to read it within the 338 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 2: narrative of this. Isn't Jesus talking to just anybody. He's 339 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 2: talking to a group, as we've already said, have been 340 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 2: marginalized by their own religious leaders. Yes, but even those 341 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 2: religious leaders exist within the power scenario of being a 342 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 2: colony of an empire, right, And one of the troubles 343 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 2: that Jesus encountered with these religious leaders is that many 344 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 2: of them seem to have wanted Jesus to overthrow that 345 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 2: colonizing power because they had a very particular notion of 346 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 2: the Davidic kinghood that looked, frankly more like Saul's notion 347 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 2: of the of the kinghood. Right, and now what you've 348 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: got here is a notion of kingdom that's a decentering 349 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 2: of the self, even if subtly, And he continued on 350 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 2: to you know so the enmeshing and the dissentering go 351 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 2: hand in hand. Now you got this in meshing not 352 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: just with God, but this ushing with the rest of creation. 353 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: Give us the stay our daily bread. Right, daily bread 354 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:09,360 Speaker 2: isn't in a plastic bag, pre baked and pre sliced 355 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 2: in a loaf in a supermarket on the shelf. This 356 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 2: is the staple of life, yeah, right, And it is 357 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 2: to your point, it's something that's it's it's a it's 358 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: a momentary need, our daily bread. And it's something that's 359 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 2: made in the present, devoid of supermarkets, devoid of mass production. Right, right, 360 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: forgive us our debts, as we also forgiven our doubters. 361 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 2: That as you point out, it goes on to say, 362 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 2: forgive others their trustpass If you forgive others their trustpasses, 363 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 2: your heavenly father will forgive you. As difficult as it 364 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,640 Speaker 2: is to read that passage, it's a reminder that none 365 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 2: of us are in this position where we can think 366 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 2: that we were faultless. We're blameless. Yeah, maybe a conversation 367 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 2: for another time, But I think that's sort of one 368 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: of the messages of Hosea that as you keep reading 369 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 2: through it, you start to realize the only true Hoseiah 370 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: is God. Right, even to the degree that we've been 371 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 2: wronged in any number of ways, we recognize that we're 372 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,640 Speaker 2: not faultless the way Hooseah was so, Joseah really only 373 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: stands in the place of God and that narrative, and 374 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: this passage is reminding us of that as well. And 375 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 2: then an old friend of mine from verse thirteen, I 376 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 2: like the way that he put it lead us not 377 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,440 Speaker 2: to temptation. We can get there well enough on our own. 378 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: I think enough set about that, right. 379 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. 380 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 2: The idea here is it's an enmeshing. It's a dependence 381 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,200 Speaker 2: upon God, it's a dependence upon the rest of creation, 382 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 2: it's dependence upon fellow human beings. And to the degree 383 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 2: that we can pull from this an idea of manhood, 384 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 2: that's that notion of enmeshing and surrendering of the self 385 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 2: centering is actually more the picture that we're getting here, 386 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 2: which sits in direct contrast. Now, I think that's significant 387 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,679 Speaker 2: if I can be so bold as to bring in 388 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 2: some philosopher's' names to name drop them. A pretty significant 389 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: philosophical movement in the modern age is that one brought 390 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: on by Hegel, and he talks about this constant battle. 391 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 2: It's this master slave battle, and the master wants to 392 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 2: keep the slave as the slave, and the slave wants 393 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 2: to overcome and make the master submit and become the 394 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 2: new master. And he has an interesting take on what 395 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 2: we call resolved dialectic. That isn't terribly important to know 396 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:36,600 Speaker 2: here other than to say that there is that back 397 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,719 Speaker 2: and forth dynamic of a pushing against one another, and 398 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: others have picked up on it and taken various directions. Right, 399 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 2: Fuku in the twentieth century wanted to speak of this 400 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 2: innate desire for power, and this innate desire for power 401 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 2: is inherently a corrupting reality. And so it's sort of 402 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: a building off of a Hagel in that key sense, right, 403 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 2: that the slave might be the slave in the moment, 404 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 2: but if the slave can flip the tables, the slave 405 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 2: will and the slave will do the same thing. Yeah, 406 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 2: And then you've got an interesting alternative that in Nietzsche, 407 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,879 Speaker 2: who says, you know, the one exception that seems to 408 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: be to this is the message of Jesus, to which 409 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 2: he says, Jesus is just the weakest of them all, 410 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,640 Speaker 2: because he's trying to make the slave be convinced that 411 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 2: being a slave's a better thing. 412 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:20,840 Speaker 1: Yeah. 413 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, And as we read this, I think all we 414 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: can say is that to the degree that all three 415 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 2: of those people have done a decent job of explaining 416 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 2: the forces that plan this work, Jesus, Jesus conforms manhood 417 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 2: and personhood to none. 418 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: Of those three, right, right. 419 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 2: He's not advocating for be a slave to someone else. 420 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 2: He's advocating for willingly decentering the self. He's advocating for 421 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 2: seeing oneself received from the other, first and foremost from God, 422 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 2: but also from the rest of creation, so by the way, 423 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,680 Speaker 2: from our fellow humanity. And this sort of servant motif 424 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 2: is something that I think really transcends the New Testament 425 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 2: and really the Old Testament as well, But it lies 426 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: in the face of the kind of the politics of 427 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 2: Lord over that I think shares more in common with 428 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 2: the Pharisees here, right, it's the kind of map that 429 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 2: the Pharisees were giving these marginalized Jewish people. Yeah, and 430 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 2: Jesus seems to be doing something that doesn't just simply 431 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: say you know, it's good be the marginalized you as people, 432 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: but insteadies trying to say, here's a window to something better. 433 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 2: That's none of the above. 434 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think to sort of draw this in 435 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: because I want to make two points just to make 436 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: them transparent. Number One, in choosing to address Matthew six 437 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: and seven, we didn't choose a text that dealt with manhood. Right. 438 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: There's no explicit reference of here's what it means to 439 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 1: be a man. Part of that is because it's very 440 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: difficult to find those passages. Right. You either find men 441 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: in roles which will address fathers, husbands, sons, brothers, those 442 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: kind of things, or you see pictures of men doing things, 443 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,080 Speaker 1: but it's very difficult to understand whether the men are 444 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 1: doing these things because they're men, or whether they're being 445 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: narrated doing these things to demonstrate faithfulness. Right. So we 446 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 1: see in Hebrews eleven the Hall of Faith, we see 447 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 1: men and women right alongside each other. And so the 448 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: men aren't supposed to just look at the men. The 449 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:26,960 Speaker 1: women aren't just supposed to look at the women. We 450 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: see males and females being paradigms for males and females today. Right, 451 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: So in choosing this text, what I think part of 452 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: what we're explicitly doing is we're saying, this is about 453 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,199 Speaker 1: being disciples of Jesus, Right, this is what this looks like. 454 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: This is the dynamic, and we have to sort of 455 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,400 Speaker 1: pull that over into our maleness. We have to recognize 456 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: the patterns that we're seeing here, and we have to 457 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: say to ourselves, Okay, me individually, as a man, what 458 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: does this look like for me to be a man 459 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: and execute on these principles? I think one of the 460 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 1: things we probably won't get to, but I mean, if 461 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: we go to the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount, 462 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, if you think about the characteristics that Jesus 463 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,679 Speaker 1: talks about being blessed. Blessed are those who mourn? Blessed 464 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: are the meek? Blessed are those who hunger and thirst? 465 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 1: Blessed are the merciful? How many of those resonate with 466 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: cultural notions of masculinity. Not very many? Right, This is 467 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,120 Speaker 1: not like, hey, who's your ideal man, Well, he's somebody 468 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: who's meek, definitely, definitely needs to be meek, probably needs 469 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: to be mourning, should should probably you know, be poor. Right, Like, 470 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: these are not the things that come out. But to 471 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: the point we've been making there, these are marginal people, right, 472 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,200 Speaker 1: and so Jesus is saying to these marginal people, look, 473 00:27:55,760 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 1: you're the blessed ones, but none of them are told, Hey, 474 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: in order to be blessed, you need to be rich 475 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: and dominant and you know x y Z, which is 476 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: I think what those philosophers you're talking about are trying 477 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: to do. They're talking about this constant reversal of fortune 478 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,359 Speaker 1: that tends to come when we look at power dynamics 479 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,679 Speaker 1: and uh. And one of the guys that I loved 480 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 1: the way he deals with this is Renee Gerrard. Renes. 481 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: Grard talks about memetic violence and mimetic desire, and basically 482 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: the idea is he says that, you know, we're we're 483 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: constantly trying to emulate someone, right, So let's say, in 484 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 1: this context, let's just say a sheesha, I'm going to 485 00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: try to emulate you, right, And so I'm gonna I'm 486 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 1: going to try to be as much like you as possible. 487 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: What your art says is, what your art says is 488 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: eventually that will create conflicts, because if I want to 489 00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 1: be like you, you've got things that I want, and 490 00:28:56,720 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: at some point we're going to come into conflict. Right, 491 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: And then he says, basically, the only person this doesn't 492 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: happen with is Jesus. When we are when we've set 493 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: our eyes on Christ, when we say Jesus is the 494 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,239 Speaker 1: one I'm going to imitate, He's the one I'm going 495 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: to become. We slough off our ambitions, we slough off 496 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: our desires, and we decide Jesus is going to now 497 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: determine what my desires are, what my ambitions are, what 498 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: my life looks like. There's no lack of resources there, 499 00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: there's no competition. It just ultimately comes down to us 500 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: becoming more and more and more conformed of the image 501 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: of Christ. Now that's a real quick overview of ourn 502 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: Asia art, but the basic idea is there. It's not 503 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: a reversal of fortune, although in his mimasis for like 504 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: when I'm wanting to be like you, that ultimately happens. 505 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: There's a conflict. And so if I'm trying to be 506 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: more like you and I get close enough and I 507 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 1: can overtake you and sort of replace you. That's the 508 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: sort of power relation that Nietzsche and Hegel and all 509 00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: those guys are taught talking about Fuco. That's what they're 510 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: talking about, this reversal. And so he comes to the 511 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: same point, but he makes room for Jesus that these 512 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: you know, he doesn't exactly say it like this, but 513 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: the implication is that we don't have the conflict with 514 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: Christ because there is no need to have conflict with Christ. 515 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: There's so much abundance there that in becoming more and 516 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: more and more like Him, there's only more for everyone. 517 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 1: There is no lack, and so there's no need for competition. 518 00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:34,880 Speaker 1: There's a satisfaction that comes through this. And I think 519 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: that those two points. Number one, we didn't deal with 520 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: the text on manhood for you know, specific reasons. But 521 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 1: then number two, this idea that imitating Christ is what 522 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: we're aiming for, and that requires us to slough off 523 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: some of our own desires and our own ambitions and 524 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: take up the characteristics that Christ demonstrates as he goes 525 00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: through life. This is the essence of discipleship. I would 526 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: argue that that is what it means, at least, that's 527 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 1: the framework through which we discover what it means to 528 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: be a male disciple of Christ and ultimately an individual disciple. 529 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think it's worth maybe teasing here that this model, 530 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 2: then that Jesus gives is one of constantly self giving. 531 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: Right. 532 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 2: So, in the in the Upper Room discourse, as we 533 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 2: describe it in the in the Gospel of John, right 534 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 2: before he goes to get some many to be arrested, 535 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 2: he has this great prayer in which he talks about 536 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: being sent by the Father. Yeah, but then also talking 537 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 2: about how the Father has given him and those whom 538 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 2: he is the Father has given to him, in this 539 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 2: case referring to his disciples that are in that room 540 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 2: with him. Jesus is now giving those disciples to the world. 541 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 542 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 2: Right. And the implication seems to me like the pattern 543 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 2: doesn't stop. It's not the Father gave them to me, 544 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 2: and I then give them to the world. Heart stop 545 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 2: the ends. It's sort of an ongoing cyclical reality that 546 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 2: the disciples then presumably have those who are given to them, 547 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 2: who they then give to the world. Now in their case, 548 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 2: you can argue they were going to die, that had 549 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 2: to happen. But in Jesus' case, right, his pending death 550 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 2: at that moment, notwithstanding his resurrection, seems indicate he can 551 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 2: take it all back. But that's not the pattern, right. 552 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 2: The pattern here that there is to recognize and to 553 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:41,959 Speaker 2: imitate goes against what those other philosophers are saying. Not 554 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 2: because what they've described is false. I think they do 555 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 2: a good job actually describing how things tend to work 556 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 2: in this enclosure of. 557 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: The world, agreed. 558 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 2: But what Jesus is doing is precisely breaking out of that, 559 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: and not just by saying, hey, you break out of that, 560 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 2: but being the one in his very self to break 561 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: out of that by giving right. So, if anything, the 562 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 2: lesson here is that what Jesus is commending here on 563 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 2: the sermon in the Mount to these people who are 564 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 2: the marginized by the religious leaders, who are themselves already 565 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 2: marginized by the evil empire, this model that Jesus is 566 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 2: conveying here is the very model that he then ends 567 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 2: up providing in the giving of his very self on 568 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 2: the cross, and in that the giving of his own 569 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:30,960 Speaker 2: gifts right, the gifts that the Father gave to him 570 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 2: the disciples to the world to continue on. That's the 571 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 2: lesson here for personhood and to your point by implication, menhood. 572 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I always I mean, just to piggyback on that, 573 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: the way I usually phrase it is Jesus' life is 574 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: the only one that ever resulted in resurrection, ascension and glorification. 575 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: And so he's a pretty good model what he did 576 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: we should do. And I know we make a big 577 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: deal out of resurrection, as we should, but the reality 578 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: is Lazarus is resurrected, you know, like we have other resurrections, 579 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 1: this resurrection is different because now it results in this ascension. 580 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: Jesus has given all that authority he sits at the 581 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,239 Speaker 1: right hand of God, he is now glorified. And in 582 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: following him and following his ways and doing what he does, 583 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 1: not in being macho, but in being what he was right, 584 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 1: really understanding what he did his self, giving his selflessness, 585 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:33,680 Speaker 1: his unwavering faithfulness to the Father, right, his learned obedience 586 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: through suffering, you know, pulling little Hebrews five eight there, like, 587 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: these are the things that Jesus did, and so these 588 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: are the things that we should be doing. And if 589 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: we're not mastering those basics. I think it's very and 590 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: as we get into this, we'll kind of transition out 591 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: of this episode into the next. But as we get 592 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: into some of the ideas that are put forth by 593 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 1: popular creatures and or the elogians in this register, what 594 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 1: I would say is, if we aren't mastering these basics 595 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: of Jesus telling people to be more ambitious, more aggressive, 596 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,560 Speaker 1: exercise more dominion, I think are highly problematic because they're 597 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 1: detached from a context, and really more than a context, 598 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: they're detached from a person who shapes that ambition. Who's 599 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:29,200 Speaker 1: who defines that dominion? Right, what does it look like 600 00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: to have dominion? To me, it looks like an uncompromising 601 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: faith despite the negative consequences of the world. That's what 602 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 1: it means to have dominion, right. It doesn't mean taking 603 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,200 Speaker 1: control of the earth. It means living according to the 604 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: authority of the kingdom, even when living in according to 605 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: the authority of kingdom stinks like that's kind of it. 606 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: Our dominion doesn't usually look like dominion, just like Jesus didn't, 607 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, Jesus's death on the cross didn't look like victory. 608 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 1: And so I think when when we decouple these things. 609 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 1: When we don't root them back in the kind of 610 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: stuff we've been talking about in this episode, what we're 611 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: going to end up with are severe distortions of our 612 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,640 Speaker 1: humanity where we're going to be exercising some of these 613 00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 1: characteristics that in and of themselves are not bad, but 614 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: when they are ungoverned by the Word of God, and 615 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: I mean that both in Jesus sense and the Scripture sense. 616 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: When they're ungoverned by the Word of God, they are 617 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,480 Speaker 1: going to go off the rails. They're going to be distorted. 618 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: They are going to fall back into, as you said, 619 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: the hegel Fuku Nietzsche sort of phenomenologically correct way of 620 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,799 Speaker 1: exercising these characteristics. That's just the way of. 621 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 2: Things, right. 622 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: Well'll suck all right, We'll leave it there and we'll 623 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: jump in the next episode. We're going to talk a 624 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,879 Speaker 1: little bit more about some very specific paradigms, and so 625 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: we'll dig into some of the presentations of biblical masculinity 626 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: in the next couple of episodes, just to give examples 627 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: of some of the stuff we're talking about more conceptionally 628 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: in these first couple of episodes. So come back on 629 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: the next episode ashi USh, thanks for being here and 630 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: we'll catch everybody on the next episode of Thinking Christian 631 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: Take Care. I just want to take a second to 632 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with 633 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to 634 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered 635 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, 636 00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: and more.