Speaker 1: Was Jesus Jewish as he seemed to consider himself, or
Speaker 1: was he a Christian, perhaps a Christian who didn't use
Speaker 1: the label. The traditional Christian view over the past two
Speaker 1: thousand years is that Jesus was a Jew and also
Speaker 1: the inspiration for the founding of Christianity. From this conjunction
Speaker 1: we get the idea of Judeo Christianity, a connection both
Speaker 1: historical and spiritual between Judaism and Christianity. The psychologist Jordan
Speaker 1: Peterson stirred up a big ruckus on social media with
Speaker 1: a recent post that defended the concept of Judeo christian
Speaker 1: Peterson wrote quote with regard to Judeo Christian and then
Speaker 1: he added, the Ten Commandments are Jewish, the great worries
Speaker 1: of the Old Testament are Jewish, and also Christ himself
Speaker 1: was a Jew. Now this last part, well, really all
Speaker 1: of it ruffle the feathers of a certain faction of Christians,
Speaker 1: many of them catholic. I count in this group stalwarts
Speaker 1: like Jack Bisobic, Mike Cernovich, an a count called mostly
Speaker 1: Peaceful Memes. Candice Owens also weighed in, implying that some
Speaker 1: cabal had grabbed Jordan Peterson from his hospital bed to
Speaker 1: quote lecture us Christians about how we need to worship Jews. Well,
Speaker 1: I agree that Jordan Peterson may not be the best
Speaker 1: messenger here. He's reluctant to describe himself as a Christian.
Speaker 1: He's more of an academic who is for Christianity rather
Speaker 1: than someone who actually believes and practices it. Even so,
Speaker 1: the question remains whether Peterson's claims are correct not. According
Speaker 1: to the mostly peaceful Memes guy, he responds, quote the
Speaker 1: ten Commandments are Christian, the greatest stories of the Old
Speaker 1: Testament are Christian, and further quote Abraham was Christian, Noah
Speaker 1: was Christian, Adam was Christian, Moses was Christian, David was Christian.
Speaker 1: And sure enough others weighed in to close out the
Speaker 1: point by insisting Jesus was Christian. Indeed, the first Christian.
Speaker 1: You can see it right there in his name christ Christian.
Speaker 2: Get it.
Speaker 1: Now. There's a problem here that comes from the failure
Speaker 1: to read the Bible in the appropriate way. A failure
Speaker 1: to read scripture correctly can have some very bad, even
Speaker 1: catastrophic consequences. Consider the Church Father Origin, who was often
Speaker 1: quoted by those who dismissed the jewishness of the Old
Speaker 1: Testament and the jewishness of Jesus. Origin read a passage
Speaker 1: in scripture which says that we should be quote eunuchs
Speaker 1: for Christ, or more precisely than we should be quote
Speaker 1: eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven. What did he do?
Speaker 1: He promptly castrated himself. How do we know this? The
Speaker 1: incident is recorded by another church father, Eusebius of Saysarea
Speaker 1: in his Ecclesiastical History. Eusebius notes that Origin wanted to
Speaker 1: protect himself from sexual temptation, but most of all, he
Speaker 1: wanted to be obedient to the scriptures. Scripture, however, can
Speaker 1: be taken in a literal or metaphorical way. Evidently, Origin,
Speaker 1: and reading literally what might have been intended metaphorically, ended
Speaker 1: up losing his way and also his testicles. Speaking for myself,
Speaker 1: I would hate to lose my testicles over misreading a text.
Speaker 1: Since the Bible was first assembled, starting in the second
Speaker 1: century and becoming a canonical or established text in the
Speaker 1: fourth century, Christians have understood its books and passages can
Speaker 1: be read in multiple ways. The Christian tradition holds there
Speaker 1: is a fourfold way to read scripture. Dante calls this
Speaker 1: the allegory of the theologians, and he distinguishes it from
Speaker 1: the allegory of the poets. Now, poets generally use two
Speaker 1: types of allegory, the simile, which is a direct comparison,
Speaker 1: and the metaphor, which is an implied comparison. Both are
Speaker 1: tools of the imagination of the poet. In that respect,
Speaker 1: both are fictional. But scripture is something different from a poem.
Speaker 1: Scripture can be read literally or historically. This is the
Speaker 1: first way. A literal or historical reading takes the events
Speaker 1: as real. This is what happened. The Bible is not
Speaker 1: merely a work of imaginative literature, and describes real people,
Speaker 1: real places, and real events. But there's also a metaphorical
Speaker 1: or symbolic way to read scripture. This is the second way.
Speaker 1: The metaphorical reading does not displace the literal, it enhances it.
Speaker 1: If I say, for instance, that Jesus is the new Atom,
Speaker 1: that means that Jesus stands symbolically in the place of Adam,
Speaker 1: restoring man to his original condition of sinlessness through his
Speaker 1: unique sacrifice on the cross. It doesn't mean that Adam
Speaker 1: was a covert Christian, or that Adam was a Christian
Speaker 1: without knowing it, or that Jesus somehow appeared in the
Speaker 1: guise of the biblical figure that we call Adam. In
Speaker 1: addition to the literal and metaphorical ways of understanding scripture,
Speaker 1: there's also the moral understanding, which involves drawing more lessons
Speaker 1: from episodes in the Bible. And finally, there is the
Speaker 1: anagogical or eschatological understanding, which locates scriptural events within the
Speaker 1: larger purpose or teleology of God's plan. So these are
Speaker 1: the four ways, but again, each way complements the others,
Speaker 1: none of them displaces the alternatives. Dante gives the example
Speaker 1: of the Exodus, when Israel came out of Egypt. Historically
Speaker 1: it happened. Metaphorically it is a symbol of spiritual liberation. Morally,
Speaker 1: it teaches us the virtues of obedience and justice, and
Speaker 1: escatologically it is part of the divine plan of rescuing
Speaker 1: God's people from the bondage of the world and the
Speaker 1: bondage of sin. Now let's come back to this question
Speaker 1: of whether Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses were Christians. Literally no,
Speaker 1: historically no. To claim that christian is simply anachronistic, Christians
Speaker 1: are followers of Jesus and Jesus would not come into
Speaker 1: the world until much later. So what might it mean then,
Speaker 1: to say that Noah or Abraham will Christian One answer
Speaker 1: might be that Noah or Abraham foreshadow the coming of Christ.
Speaker 1: Noah's Ark, for instance, has often been viewed by Christian
Speaker 1: theologians and writers as representing Christ. Just as the Ark
Speaker 1: saved humanity from doom and destruction, Christ is the ark
Speaker 1: that saves us from eternal doom and destruction. Okay, but
Speaker 1: in this case it is not Noah. It is the
Speaker 1: Ark that is Christ. So how does that make Noah
Speaker 1: a Christian? If anything, it makes the ark the symbol
Speaker 1: of Christianity and Noah is the guy who rode in it.
Speaker 1: Does Noah become a Christian merely by writing in a
Speaker 1: Christian boat? Abraham and Isaac are climbing the mountain, and
Speaker 1: Isaac asks, where is the lamb for the sacrifice? Abraham responds,
Speaker 1: God will provide. Christians often read this passage metaphorically. Jesus
Speaker 1: is the Lamb of God who came to take away
Speaker 1: the sins of the world. Jesus is the sacrifice. Yes, true,
Speaker 1: But nowhere does that imply that the incident did not
Speaker 1: occur or as described, the literal meaning is not erased
Speaker 1: by the metaphorical one. Abraham ended up sacrificing a ram,
Speaker 1: and that was an actual ram. It wasn't Jesus masquerading
Speaker 1: as a ram. Moreover, in the scriptural reference, it is
Speaker 1: the Lamb, not Abraham. Was compared to Christ, Jesus is
Speaker 1: the Lamb. Jesus is not Abraham. Once again, how does
Speaker 1: any of this make Abraham a Christian? Quite obviously, Abraham
Speaker 1: had no idea of the christ to us to come
Speaker 1: two thousand years later? Was Abraham a Christian without knowing it?
Speaker 1: And the same can be asked about Moses and David.
Speaker 1: To me, it makes no historical sense to call people
Speaker 1: things they would never call themselves. I call this Islamic reasoning.
Speaker 1: Muslims will sometimes say Jesus was a Muslim, Jesus is
Speaker 1: a prophet in Islam. Well, Jesus would never have called
Speaker 1: himself a Muslim, and it's wrong to retroactively dub him
Speaker 1: that way. And by the same token, Abraham would never
Speaker 1: have called himself a Christian. How can the man who
Speaker 1: founded a community of Israelites later to be called Jews somehow,
Speaker 1: thousands of years later be dubbed a Christian, a label
Speaker 1: that did not exist in his time and would make
Speaker 1: no sense whatever to him. The Bible says Abraham trusted God,
Speaker 1: and God took this for righteousness. This suggests that even
Speaker 1: if Abraham didn't know Christ, he trusted God with his care.
Speaker 1: One might say that he anticipated the Messiah without knowing.
Speaker 1: And now I'm fine with this theological understanding. But all
Speaker 1: that it means is that Christ's saving grace was extended
Speaker 1: not merely forward to those who came after him, but
Speaker 1: also backward to some who came before him. There's no
Speaker 1: implication here that any of these Jewish Old Testament figures
Speaker 1: were somehow Christians.
Speaker 2: Why not?
Speaker 1: Isn't everyone who is saved by Christ automatically a Christian?
Speaker 1: Isn't that what the term Christian means? And what about
Speaker 1: the idea that Jesus himself was the first Christian? Well,
Speaker 1: how can Jesus be the first Christian if he lived
Speaker 1: two thousand years after Abraham and one thousand years after David.
Speaker 1: If Abraham and David are Christians, then wouldn't they precede Jesus?
Speaker 1: I guess the answer to that is that Jesus is
Speaker 1: God and therefore he preceded Abraham and David even Adam.
Speaker 1: Jesus has existed since the beginning of time. Indeed, he
Speaker 1: created the universe and time itself. Again, I think we
Speaker 1: are confusing the historical Jesus, Jesus, the Son of God
Speaker 1: who came down from Heaven, with Jesus, who is God
Speaker 1: and who reigns eternally in heaven. Yes, Jesus is fully divine,
Speaker 1: but he also became fully human. The Gospels are an
Speaker 1: account of what Jesus did from his birth around four
Speaker 1: BC to his death around thirty two ADY. This Jesus,
Speaker 1: this historical Jesus, was not merely a metaphor or symbol.
Speaker 1: He was an actual person. He lived in a particular
Speaker 1: place at a particular time. And yes, he was a Jew.
Speaker 1: He was born into a Jewish family. His father's name
Speaker 1: was Joseph, his mother was Miriam. He was the Eshua.
Speaker 1: This Jesus a Jewish food, kept Jewish rights, and celebrated
Speaker 1: the Jewish holidays. This Jesus taught in synagogues, and he
Speaker 1: taught out of the Hebrew Scriptures, which are the only
Speaker 1: scriptures he had. This Jesus bathed in the pool of
Speaker 1: Salom and walked the pilgrimage road to the temple, the
Speaker 1: temple rebuilt by Herod on the site of the original
Speaker 1: temple built by Solomon. No, this Jesus was not a Christian.
Speaker 1: He was an inspiration for the founding of Christianity, a
Speaker 1: group of followers who took that name. But that's not
Speaker 1: the same thing. Marx was the founder of Marxism, but
Speaker 1: doesn't follow that Marx was himself a Marxist. A Marxist
Speaker 1: is a follower of Marx, and Marx himself was not
Speaker 1: a follower of Marx. This might seem like a semantic
Speaker 1: point of verbal trifle, but it is not. So let
Speaker 1: me clarify. Let's put our philosophical hat on for a
Speaker 1: minute and consider the statement Jesus is a Christian. Let's
Speaker 1: test that statement for its logical meaning. If I say
Speaker 1: that A is B, it follows that everything that's true
Speaker 1: of B must also be true of A. If I
Speaker 1: find things that are true of B but not of A,
Speaker 1: than it cannot be that A is B. Now, let's
Speaker 1: identify some things that are true of Christians and ask
Speaker 1: are they also true of Jesus. Christians worship Jesus did
Speaker 1: Jesus worship himself. No Christians model their lives on Jesus.
Speaker 1: Did Jesus model his life on himself? No Christians are
Speaker 1: saved by Jesus's sacrifice. Was Jesus saved by his own sacrifice? No,
Speaker 1: Jesus didn't need salvation as Christians do. Jesus died for us,
Speaker 1: he didn't die for himself. Conclusion, there are several things here,
Speaker 1: and we can add more that are true of Christians
Speaker 1: that are not true of Jesus. Therefore, it follows that
Speaker 1: the premis Jesus is a Christian is simply not true.
Speaker 1: It's illogical, it's incoherent. We should stop saying this. Jesus
Speaker 1: is indeed the inspiration for Christianity, but he was not
Speaker 1: himself a Christian, we learned from the Book of Acts.
Speaker 1: But the first Christians were the ones at the church
Speaker 1: in Antioch. The first Christians were Greek followers of Jesus.
Speaker 1: Of course, they had been earlier followers of Jesus, but
Speaker 1: those were mainly Jews. They were Jewish followers of Jesus.
Speaker 1: The Apostles fall into this camp. They were the earliest
Speaker 1: Jewish Christians, or as I like to call them, the
Speaker 1: original Judaeo Christians. So you see, Judeo Christian is not
Speaker 1: some made up term. It can quite literally be used
Speaker 1: to describe the very first followers of Jesus. Archaeologists have
Speaker 1: found the ruins the first century synagogues in Israel that
Speaker 1: appointed not toward the site of the Second Temple, but
Speaker 1: rather toward the Church of the Holy Sepulch or the
Speaker 1: site of Jesus' crucifixion. This is where the earliest Judaeo Christians,
Speaker 1: who preceded the Christians, worship Jesus the Messiah. The point
Speaker 1: here is not to take sides in some petty debate
Speaker 1: between Christian Zionists and Christian anti Zionists. I'm sometimes labeled
Speaker 1: a Christian Zionist, and while I won't repudiate that label,
Speaker 1: I've never called myself that. My interest here is in
Speaker 1: preserving the historicity of christ hest and the historical veracity
Speaker 1: of the Bible. I'm a Christian and a Christian apologist,
Speaker 1: and I subscribe to what C. S. Lewis called mere Christianity,
Speaker 1: the teachings of Scripture commonly held by genuine Catholics and
Speaker 1: Protestants over two thousand years. What we learn from this
Speaker 1: common heritage. This great tradition is to read the Bible
Speaker 1: in a multi layered way, embracing the literal or historical truth,
Speaker 1: while at the same time finding deeper, metaphorical and eschatological
Speaker 1: meanings that can be read between the lines. There's great
Speaker 1: wisdom in that Christian proverb. The New Testament is in
Speaker 1: the Old concealed. The Old Testament is in the New reveal.
Speaker 1: The two testaments go together. The one is incorporated in
Speaker 1: the other, and it is also fulfilled in the other.
Speaker 1: As Christians professing the resurrected Christ, we can all, I hope,
Speaker 1: agree on that. And that's the way I see it.
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Speaker 3: Jonathan is a real pleasure too, would be chatting with you.
Speaker 3: Of course.
Speaker 1: I had the great pleasure of working with you on
Speaker 1: the Dragon's prophecy A. I got to tell you when
Speaker 1: I started Debbie and I had been to Israel in
Speaker 1: late twenty twenty two. We were we got not just
Speaker 1: that feeling of being in the land of the Bible,
Speaker 1: but also a window into some of the exciting things
Speaker 1: happening in biblical archaeology. But this was before October seventh,
Speaker 1: and October seventh came along, and I got the idea
Speaker 1: of doing a film that would somehow tie the past
Speaker 1: biblical archeology with the current events, which is October seventh
Speaker 1: and it's aftermath. And that's when I happened on the
Speaker 1: Dragon's Prophecy, which tied the past and the present and
Speaker 1: the future together in such an arresting and interesting way.
Speaker 3: And that's what drew me into your work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. I mean, I think timing was the
Speaker 2: Lord because it happened not only in the wake of
Speaker 2: October seventh, but also the revival of anti Semitism all
Speaker 2: over the world and in America anti Israel, and that
Speaker 2: is just when when the Dragon's Prophecy came out. It
Speaker 2: was like the most strategic for the Lord. And I
Speaker 2: believe in what you did. You did an amazing job,
Speaker 2: and I believe it's an important work. I mean that
Speaker 2: will stand in important work. But you know, we are
Speaker 2: in the midst of this gigantic drama that go a
Speaker 2: war that goes back thousands of years. We're just spectators
Speaker 2: of where it is now. But it's part of something
Speaker 2: very big.
Speaker 1: When we worked on the film, we had no idea
Speaker 1: that you would see this upsurge of anti Semitism, not
Speaker 1: just from the left, which is where one might expect it,
Speaker 1: but a current of anti Israel and anti Jewish feeling
Speaker 1: on the right. Yes, and we had to sort of
Speaker 1: grapple with it as we were putting this together and
Speaker 1: import some of it into into the film.
Speaker 3: And by the way, the film is.
Speaker 1: On iTunes, it's on Amazon Prime. So for people who
Speaker 1: haven't seen it, I think that there are profound themes
Speaker 1: that you develop in that film that are that have
Speaker 1: enduring significance.
Speaker 2: I think it's yeah, and it's very powerful. I'd recommend
Speaker 2: anybody who hasn't seen it. It's very powerful and it's
Speaker 2: very important for this time. And you know, as you said,
Speaker 2: we expect it on the left, I mean in our
Speaker 2: in modern times. We didn't expect it so much in
Speaker 2: the conservative you know, some of the touching some of
Speaker 2: the conservatives and infiltrating some of the church, you know,
Speaker 2: and this is really the backbone of the support of
Speaker 2: Israel in America now is Conservatives and Christians Evangelicals more
Speaker 2: than anything. If that goes you can see, you can see,
Speaker 2: you could see the strategic spiritual warfare here. If that
Speaker 2: gets weakened enough, that can separate American Israel, and that's major.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: What I found is I went to a big anti
Speaker 1: Semitism conference in Israel.
Speaker 3: I was invited.
Speaker 1: I was somewhat surprised to be invited because this is
Speaker 1: not my normal topic. But what I found, the themes
Speaker 1: in the film were very enlightening to people, because I
Speaker 1: would talk to sort of secular Jews and I would say,
Speaker 1: they'd be like, we're very disturbed by the rise of
Speaker 1: anti Semitism.
Speaker 3: And I would say, well, how do you explain it?
Speaker 1: How to you explain not just the pervasiveness but the
Speaker 1: vehemence of it, And most of them would answer beats me.
Speaker 3: Like I don't get it, like why us? You know
Speaker 3: why and why?
Speaker 1: And of course there are some kind of secular explanations
Speaker 1: rooted in envy and so on.
Speaker 3: But they don't do full justice to this topic.
Speaker 1: And I think the element that you introduced, which is
Speaker 1: simply this has a spiritual and demonic element, a transcendental explanation. Yes,
Speaker 1: and I found even secular Jews quite capt evaded by
Speaker 1: this idea that there's a way to look at it
Speaker 1: that goes far beyond just the fact that, you know,
Speaker 1: people who consider the Jews to be like the villains
Speaker 1: of history.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing, I mean yeah, because there's no I
Speaker 2: mean what you just said there. You know, you could say, okay,
Speaker 2: this one was jealous, this one was this, this one,
Speaker 2: But nothing explains at all because it's been in every situation,
Speaker 2: virtually every land, every age. You know, the ancient world
Speaker 2: was different from the modern world. But the pagan world
Speaker 2: hated Israel, hated the Jewish people, medieval world, the modern world,
Speaker 2: the secular world. I mean, there's very few parallels between
Speaker 2: someone like Hitler and say, you know an ancient pagan
Speaker 2: you know, emperor or the Church in the Middle Ages,
Speaker 2: but you know or Hamas. I mean, you know, these
Speaker 2: are people who would not be eating together, you know,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't matter. You know, in the communists hated
Speaker 2: the Jews for being capitalists in the capitalist world who
Speaker 2: just hate different things of their communists. You know, they
Speaker 2: hate them from staying to taking to themselves. They hate
Speaker 2: them for for for mixing in with it, with a
Speaker 2: with a society. Doesn't matter, you know, because it's not natural.
Speaker 2: And the Old and the Bible does give a very
Speaker 2: clear thing. Revelation to weelve is incredibly clear. You know,
Speaker 2: when you have a dragon attacking a woman who is
Speaker 2: clearly Israel and so, and it makes I mean, once
Speaker 2: you go into the spiritual it makes complete sense. I mean,
Speaker 2: if there is a force of evil that's trying to
Speaker 2: stop the purposes of God, and you have a nation
Speaker 2: that exists by God for the purpose of fulfilling them,
Speaker 2: you're going to have a war. And that that's exactly
Speaker 2: what it is. You can't explain Hitler by natural means.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's demonic. It is demonic.
Speaker 1: The thing that grabbed me when I read the Dragon's
Speaker 1: prophecy was simply the idea that the resurrection of the Jews,
Speaker 1: God's people, on the one hand, is accompanied by a
Speaker 1: dark resurrecttion of the enemies.
Speaker 3: Of the Jews.
Speaker 1: That's the part of it where suddenly the ancient past
Speaker 1: biblical battles described in ancient books suddenly comes to life,
Speaker 1: and you draw out.
Speaker 3: In some detail these parallels.
Speaker 1: Yes, child soldiers and the colors of the apocalypse, and
Speaker 1: so many other, so many other parallels. Now, the book
Speaker 1: I read right after that, the Dragon's Prophecy, was the
Speaker 1: one that we have in front of us, which is
Speaker 1: the return of the Gods, which to me is a
Speaker 1: kind of wide angled view of a phenomenon that you
Speaker 1: examined in particular detail in the Dragon's Prophecy. But here
Speaker 1: you're you're not just focused on Israel, You're not focused
Speaker 1: on the Middle East.
Speaker 3: You're taking in the world.
Speaker 1: Yes, and let's start by talking about the gods, because
Speaker 1: by the gods and the word plural, here you are
Speaker 1: invoking the ancient age of polytheism and paganism, the ancient Greeks,
Speaker 1: the ancient Romans.
Speaker 3: Who had not one god but many gods.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and the Bible speaks of gods throughout and
Speaker 2: there's one God, and but so what are the gods?
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a reality, and it's a false reality,
Speaker 2: the Bible actually says. I mean, here's the amazing thing
Speaker 2: is that no matter where you go in the world
Speaker 2: in ancient times, they're worshiping gods I mean, it's strange
Speaker 2: that it's such a universal phenomenon that man worships gods,
Speaker 2: and the Bible says in a number of passages in
Speaker 2: the Hebrew Scriptures. Then in the New Testament it's called
Speaker 2: it gives a word for the gods. That's not just mythology.
Speaker 2: There is mythology, and it's fantasy, you know. But when
Speaker 2: you're dealing with worship, you're dealing with the spiritual realm.
Speaker 2: And the Bible says they worship the shed dem in
Speaker 2: shadeem doesn't mean mean a mythological idea. It means a
Speaker 2: spirit or entity, you know, that has will volition, so
Speaker 2: shed deem and that, and they says they sacrifice their
Speaker 2: children to the shed deem. Then the word gets translated
Speaker 2: into the New Testament through the Subtuagen into the Greek
Speaker 2: and it becomes the word die ammonia, which we get
Speaker 2: the word demonic or demon and so so. And that's
Speaker 2: why where Paul says these are sacrificed to devils, you know,
Speaker 2: in the King James. But it's so it's the Bible's
Speaker 2: clearly saying that it's not just fantasy. There is a
Speaker 2: reality behind it. There is a demonic reality. When you
Speaker 2: turn away from God and you're worshiping something else, there's
Speaker 2: going to be the demonic in it. And what is
Speaker 2: more demonic and what would an entity do then then
Speaker 2: try to get the worship away from God to itself
Speaker 2: and so so so therefore there's a whole nother realm
Speaker 2: to it. And that's why when you look at pagan worship,
Speaker 2: like when you look at where where you go, where
Speaker 2: there's deep pagan and there's there today in the time centry.
Speaker 2: There are places in the world where they still worship gods.
Speaker 2: And the more they get into that worship, the more
Speaker 2: demonic it becomes. They have they have possession, you know,
Speaker 2: they believe in the gods possess them. Well, spirit demons possessed,
Speaker 2: but you had. And the closer one got to the
Speaker 2: worship of the gods, the more those those phenomenon was evidence.
Speaker 2: Like when you looked at the high priestesses and the
Speaker 2: oracles and they were people who were taken over, you know,
Speaker 2: in the counts that we have, they were taken over.
Speaker 2: They were foaming at the mouth and they were speaking
Speaker 2: things you know from this spirit that they said was
Speaker 2: the God possessing them. We know, these are not there's
Speaker 2: no real other God. These are spirits. So all these
Speaker 2: things are you know, bear witness what the Bible says,
Speaker 2: this is a spiritual realm. There are spirits and that,
Speaker 2: and that sets the stage actually explaining what's happening in
Speaker 2: America and the West and the world that we are in.
Speaker 3: I think for me what was eye opening about.
Speaker 1: This is that it helped to explain a civilization and
Speaker 1: a reality that has been camouflaged by modern academia. So
Speaker 1: when I was in college, I took courses on Greek mythology,
Speaker 1: and of course you learn about Zeus, and you learn
Speaker 1: about Athena, and you learn about gods who seem to
Speaker 1: be personifications of nature, right the river God, the thunder God,
Speaker 1: beside In the God of the Sea, and so on,
Speaker 1: and all of this is presented in a very kind
Speaker 1: of safe context, as if to say, you know, the
Speaker 1: Greeks kind of believed in the sort of wacky concepts
Speaker 1: of these gods who lived on Mount Olympus. Of course,
Speaker 1: we've become more educated since then we realize all of
Speaker 1: this is kind of nonsense. It's all very interesting, but
Speaker 1: it all has this big stamp of mythology on it,
Speaker 1: and the only thing you take seriously is the Greek philosophers,
Speaker 1: who appear to be kind of moving away from the gods. Now,
Speaker 1: the truth of it is that the philosophers were an
Speaker 1: isolated group of men on the streets of Athens. But
Speaker 1: the civilizations of Greece, I mean, the people worshiped these gods,
Speaker 1: and there has to have been a real power there
Speaker 1: for these gods to have endured for hundreds and hundreds
Speaker 1: of years and were then taken over by the Romans.
Speaker 1: And I think it makes much more sense to understand
Speaker 1: these gods as spirits with genuine power, because that's how
Speaker 1: people went into these sort of dithyrambic frenzies, not only
Speaker 1: sexual orgies, but bloody sacrifices. And I have been to
Speaker 1: some of the sites where those things occurred. So I
Speaker 1: think you're familiar with the philosopher in Nietzsche, who I
Speaker 1: think was onto this and in fact liked it. Nietzsche
Speaker 1: was very anti Christian, so Nietzsche in some ways became an.
Speaker 3: Apostle of.
Speaker 1: Like revival of these ancient gemonic.
Speaker 2: Spirits, right, yeah, And and Nietzsche was you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: he said for those who don't know. He's the one
Speaker 2: who said God is dead and and said get rid
Speaker 2: of Christianity, you know, and he he he adored you know.
Speaker 2: He he glorified the pagan paganism, pagan ideal, and he
Speaker 2: and he actually glorified Dionysus. You know, I spoke. And
Speaker 2: the interesting thing is that in and actually I spoke
Speaker 2: about this in the Avatar, but that that Dionysus, according
Speaker 2: to the ancient accounts, his followers would go insane. We
Speaker 2: go into in this frenzy, but he would drive them
Speaker 2: into insanity. Nietzsche goes insane. And and then at the
Speaker 2: end of his writing career, instead of signing his name
Speaker 2: Frederic Nietzsche, he signs it Dionysus, as if he was
Speaker 2: taken over and the and and of course one of
Speaker 2: the people who picked that up Nietzsche was Hitler and
Speaker 2: the Nazis. He was their philosopher. And what did they
Speaker 2: do They did exactly. They basically and even though they
Speaker 2: couldn't say it outright, they basically were driving out God,
Speaker 2: driving out Christianity. They tried to rename it. They tried.
Speaker 2: They saw it as Jewish, which is great, and they
Speaker 2: embraced a pagan ren reality of many of them went
Speaker 2: to the Norse gods, the Germanic gods. And what was
Speaker 2: the result of that. The result of it was a
Speaker 2: demonic right, a demonic civilization that was responsible for the
Speaker 2: death of millions. So it's a dangerous This is how
Speaker 2: real it is. You look at Oh, it's just a
Speaker 2: little fan. Look at what happened to Look at what
Speaker 2: happened to Nazi Germany. It's a dangerous thing for a
Speaker 2: quote Christian civil or Judeo Christian civilization. One has known
Speaker 2: the word known to turn away because what comes back
Speaker 2: comes back worse.
Speaker 1: Let's focus on this word. We've talked about God's return. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you developed the argument that the rise of Christianity
Speaker 1: and the spread of Christianity through the West and through.
Speaker 2: The world.
Speaker 1: Was a restraining even a shutdown of the pagan gods, right,
Speaker 1: because it replaces well, first of all, polytheism is sort
Speaker 1: of supplanted by monotheism, and Christianity in a way puts
Speaker 1: the cork on tight on this sort of bottle full
Speaker 1: of demonic genies, if I can use that expression.
Speaker 2: The genie, by the way, means devil or demon in Arabic.
Speaker 1: Oh, interesting, and so and this goes on, This goes
Speaker 1: on for the better part of two thousand years. But
Speaker 1: I think your use of the word return suggests that
Speaker 1: somehow the genie is out of the bottle. Or to
Speaker 1: put it differently, the influence of Christianity has waned. And
Speaker 1: you talk about portals and about how demons need portals
Speaker 1: to make their way into a civilization. Talk about demonic possession,
Speaker 1: both of the individual level but also at the civilizational level.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jesus gives the parable. He says, there was a
Speaker 2: man and he's delivered of a demonic spirit. Then it
Speaker 2: says that the demonic spirit comes back, and the implication
Speaker 2: and he finds him empty, which implies empty of God.
Speaker 2: You know, there's nothing there. And so he was delivered.
Speaker 2: So it says, let me bring the other ones back.
Speaker 2: So he comes and brings his seven other demonic spirits
Speaker 2: repossess the man. The man is eight times worse than
Speaker 2: he was in the beginning. And so though it says
Speaker 2: the end is worse than the beginning, he is now repossessed,
Speaker 2: but worse. And then you think, okay, that's about a person.
Speaker 2: It's a warning, you know, on one hand. If you've
Speaker 2: known God, do not turn back. Yes, but it's more
Speaker 2: than that, because he says so it shall be with
Speaker 2: this generation. He's not just talking about a person. He's
Speaker 2: some kind of a generation or that that involves cultural things.
Speaker 2: So the ultimate, when you take that to its ultimate,
Speaker 2: the warning is this any civilization, and particularly particularly it's
Speaker 2: you know, it starts with the Western civilization, because Western
Speaker 2: civilization was the one that were the gods. Clearly the
Speaker 2: gods were driven out and if the if behind the
Speaker 2: gods are spirits, then it was a it was like
Speaker 2: a mass exorcism. The pagan paganism was driven out, you know.
Speaker 2: And so yes, it's a it's a restraining force. So
Speaker 2: so if we become like that person in the parable,
Speaker 2: But if we should ever become empty, if if if
Speaker 2: a nation or civilization or culture that has known God,
Speaker 2: known the Word, known the spirit, and so if it
Speaker 2: ever should empty itself of God, the house will not
Speaker 2: stay empty. What was cast out of it will come
Speaker 2: back into it, and except it'll come back worse. And
Speaker 2: when when you and and to see that, we just
Speaker 2: we just we we alluded to it. Look at Nazi Germany,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, before before the Gospel, you have
Speaker 2: you can have a caligula, you know. But after you
Speaker 2: oppose Christians much more deadly or much more dangerous, you
Speaker 2: have a Hitler, you have a stalin, you have an Antichrist.
Speaker 2: You know. So what comes? Or so so America now,
Speaker 2: now America is part of Western civilization, and so even
Speaker 2: though it's born within Christianity, the roots are it's Western civilization.
Speaker 2: And so if the West should ever and this is
Speaker 2: it's not just the West now, it's the whole world.
Speaker 2: But if if if it should ever empty itself of God, well,
Speaker 2: what what did we do? What did America do? What
Speaker 2: did it? Particularly around the starting around the sixties, it
Speaker 2: became very blatant. We started driving God out of the house,
Speaker 2: you know, took him out of the schools, took him
Speaker 2: from the children that's the future, took them out of
Speaker 2: the public square, took them out, you know, on and
Speaker 2: on and on and so you know, we thought, Okay,
Speaker 2: it'll just be secular. Yeah, but but but what the
Speaker 2: warning of Jesus is it will not stays quote secular neutral.
Speaker 2: It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna say neutral. What
Speaker 2: was cast out will come back in and what we
Speaker 2: have been witnessing. I mean, you take you take God
Speaker 2: from the from the school, something else will come into
Speaker 2: the schools. It won't be neutral. Take God from the children,
Speaker 2: something else will come to the children, you know. So,
Speaker 2: so the thing is that that you take God from
Speaker 2: from the movies, from Hollywood, something else will come. I
Speaker 2: mean we're so. So the thing is that what we
Speaker 2: have been witnessing, what this would tell us, and this
Speaker 2: is exactly what's happening. Is what we are witnessing now
Speaker 2: is what we've been witnessing for about a half century. Overall,
Speaker 2: there's been rollback right now, but it's it's still the
Speaker 2: overall is it's a repaganization. When you look at the
Speaker 2: values that have shifted. Its shifted from a Christian based
Speaker 2: value on everything, marriage, on life, on everything to a
Speaker 2: pagan based morality. And worse than that, it's a repossession.
Speaker 2: So we see because that's exactly what would happened. What
Speaker 2: so what we see things and we say and you know,
Speaker 2: that's crazy, it's irrational. What what you know, whether it's
Speaker 2: woke is that's crazy what they're saying. But it's it's
Speaker 2: it's exactly what we expect because this is a repossession.
Speaker 2: You know, if you take God out, others will come in.
Speaker 2: And that's what we're that's what we are all dealing with.
Speaker 1: Let's look at the ways in which some of the
Speaker 1: key pagan deities are now coming back or have come back.
Speaker 1: They're very evident in the world in a kind of
Speaker 1: new and disguised form. They're not identified as such. Nobody
Speaker 1: looks and goes aha, that's that's.
Speaker 3: This particular deity.
Speaker 1: And I think this is one of the sort of
Speaker 1: intellectual breakthroughs of this book, The Return of the Gods,
Speaker 1: is that you don't just say we're seeing a kind
Speaker 1: of new type of Ouiji board that our civilization has
Speaker 1: been has been spinning, and we now have a kind
Speaker 1: of invasion of the old demonic spirits. You identify them
Speaker 1: one by one and let's talk about yeah, really three
Speaker 1: of them or a four manifestations. So the first one
Speaker 1: a name that most people will recognize. It comes out
Speaker 1: of Elijah's contest with prophets, and that is bal or Bail,
Speaker 1: the prophets of Bail. And but I don't think many
Speaker 1: people understand what does Bail represent?
Speaker 3: Who was bail and what is the modern form of Bail.
Speaker 2: Bail was the king of the gods of the Canaanizes.
Speaker 2: He was the god. He was, he was the represented
Speaker 2: the anti god to the God of Israel. He was
Speaker 2: the always the one that kept turning two. So he
Speaker 2: represents someone. I mean, he is the kind of the
Speaker 2: embodiment for Israel of paganism. I mean, it's Bail and
Speaker 2: the gods. Bail is always first and then come all
Speaker 2: the gods. So he's really the he's he's like that
Speaker 2: in the parable. He's like the spirit that comes back
Speaker 2: and brings his friends, you know. So it's the portal.
Speaker 2: Bail is a god. So all of the things of
Speaker 2: paganism start entering Israel. See Israel is the case study
Speaker 2: in the Bible. You know what they did when they
Speaker 2: turned away from God. This what's what's happening now in America.
Speaker 2: Happened to them. It's just happening in a modern form.
Speaker 2: So here's the god of materialism, cardinality. You know, when
Speaker 2: you have Bail, you had sensuality, it's gonna it's gonna
Speaker 2: lead to to the others. But also but paganism has
Speaker 2: there's so much. Once you get to this change, it
Speaker 2: affects everything. For instance, in monotheism, one God, one truth,
Speaker 2: you know, very simple paganism, politism, you have many gods,
Speaker 2: many truths. So now you have every you have this
Speaker 2: thing developing, well, well that's your truth. That's not true,
Speaker 2: you know that that's that's that's their truth. You know,
Speaker 2: if a woman thinks she's a cat, that's her truth,
Speaker 2: that's her personal truth. Uh, that's pagan you know. The idea.
Speaker 2: So the idea for instance, that when you take God out,
Speaker 2: everything becomes God. You know, you take God out, God's
Speaker 2: come of everything. You know, people worship, so you have
Speaker 2: you have for instance, pagan worship is the earth worship
Speaker 2: of the earth. You know, you have earth worship in
Speaker 2: modern forms. Theification of the body, deification exactly, deification of
Speaker 2: the self, Relativism, you know, subjectivism that there's no real
Speaker 2: truth with that, the the you know you have for instance,
Speaker 2: one of the things with Bail is he was represented
Speaker 2: by a bull, a molten bull. You know, you have
Speaker 2: the you have the golden calf in Egypt, that's all,
Speaker 2: but then you have a molten bull all all over Israel.
Speaker 2: It was all over when they turn away from God.
Speaker 2: Interesting because if you go to New York City, you
Speaker 2: will find a molten bull there. And it's interesting because
Speaker 2: it's not that they meant they mean it or they
Speaker 2: know it, but it's the side in the Bible of
Speaker 2: a nation that's turning away from God, you know, and
Speaker 2: also worshiping materialism. Bail is the god of gain, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, you know, there's nothing wrong with gain in itself,
Speaker 2: but gain becoming an idol, you know, you know, materialism.
Speaker 2: So and that's so, you know, when when we start turning,
Speaker 2: when a quote Christian civilization starts turning, it's first subtle, okay,
Speaker 2: with God, but but this, you know, but money becomes worship.
Speaker 2: Nothing wrong with money, but worship of money, yes, worship
Speaker 2: of the material, worship of where where where it's sensuality
Speaker 2: without morality, you know. Uh. With that, the the the
Speaker 2: word bail baal means lord or master, you know, or
Speaker 2: or possessor or owner. I think in the return of God,
Speaker 2: I call him the possessor comes into possess. One of
Speaker 2: the things is that that when you turn away from God,
Speaker 2: you become possessed by by by anything. What you worship
Speaker 2: becomes your lord. And so we also another part of America,
Speaker 2: what's happened since we is we became a nation of
Speaker 2: addiction more than ever before addicted, I mean in every
Speaker 2: possible way, substance of use, but every other way. And
Speaker 2: so it rules over what you think you're When you
Speaker 2: turn away from God, you're ruled by You become more
Speaker 2: ruled by lower things, you know, and Bulgary, you watch
Speaker 2: what happens with Israel is the culture goes to goes look,
Speaker 2: goes to a vulgarism. You know, it goes from a
Speaker 2: high you know, spiritual to vulgarism. And uh, you know,
Speaker 2: everyone everyone did what was right in their own eyes.
Speaker 2: Every everyone becomes a god. You know. One of the
Speaker 2: things about the pagan world, and is that Paul when
Speaker 2: he was on Mars Hill, I just actually came back.
Speaker 2: I've never been, I mean from Marcil and pergam In
Speaker 2: by the way. But but Paul is addressing the pagan world,
Speaker 2: and one of these things he says is, you know,
Speaker 2: basically he talks about man worshiping the works of his hands.
Speaker 2: And the word he uses in Greek for for idols
Speaker 2: the worship is the word techne, from which of course
Speaker 2: we get technology and tech and what the what the
Speaker 2: principle is that will end up without God. We end
Speaker 2: up instead of technology serving us, we end up worshiping
Speaker 2: and serving our technology. And so what happens, So we've
Speaker 2: been watching also a culture becoming addicted to technology. We're
Speaker 2: watching a generation with that. And the other thing it
Speaker 2: says is that in the in the Bible says they
Speaker 2: became like their idols. The person who worships the idol
Speaker 2: becomes like their idols, you know, says that they're dumb
Speaker 2: and they're but but so we so a towny. We
Speaker 2: have a generation right now that's becoming addicted to It's
Speaker 2: not just them, but they were addicted to technology, addicted
Speaker 2: to their phones, and they're becoming more like the machine.
Speaker 2: They're becoming less able to have personal relationships while the
Speaker 2: machine or our technology is becoming more human like taking
Speaker 2: more powers from humanity. So we're having a high tech
Speaker 2: version of basically idolatry. You know. So when Bail gets
Speaker 2: in the door, everything, well, the other thing is is
Speaker 2: he drove out, it drove out God. You know. So
Speaker 2: what we've been watching you let him in a little
Speaker 2: bit again. And the thing about these these spirits, just
Speaker 2: like you'd imagine a demonic spirit, is you know, once
Speaker 2: you let them in the door, they don't they won't
Speaker 2: just stay there. So first one this came, it was
Speaker 2: all the name of tolerance. You know, everybody do your
Speaker 2: own thing. It's just free. But then it, you know,
Speaker 2: it starts moving to another, a new intolerance where now
Speaker 2: God is not tolerated. God is driven out. You know,
Speaker 2: God's name is driven out, God's ways are overturned. It's
Speaker 2: exactly what happened to Israel. Once you give an inch
Speaker 2: to the to any of these things, it's tolerance is
Speaker 2: not is only to get in the door of a
Speaker 2: Christian civilization. Once he gets in, it's every niche shall
Speaker 2: bow in the end, you know, a cancel culture, political
Speaker 2: every niche shall bow, every tongue shall confess.
Speaker 1: I mean to me, it's striking, how you know, if
Speaker 1: we can summarize bail as representing, let's say, the spirit
Speaker 1: of apostasy, right, this apostasy, this rebellion appears to be
Speaker 1: directed solely at the monotheistic Christian God. So an atheist
Speaker 1: is not an atheist against polytheism. In fact, their polytheism
Speaker 1: is never their target. They're never trying to prove that
Speaker 1: the that the many gods of the ancient world were fabricated.
Speaker 1: They're never trying to say, well, what is the archaeological support,
Speaker 1: let's say, for Hinduism. They're they're they're they're battering Ams
Speaker 1: are on the monotheistic and specifically Christian God.
Speaker 3: And that tells you that it's a.
Speaker 1: Particular that it's a religious war in a sense against
Speaker 1: a particular God.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean, I mean to the point where
Speaker 2: you could have people who are very radical, whether atheist
Speaker 2: or woke, and they'll they'll join with Muslims, you know,
Speaker 2: because whatever is against Christianity is what they will join to.
Speaker 2: And you have things in this in our school system
Speaker 2: now where they were teaching children things from Muslim Islamic
Speaker 2: worship or pagan worship. But never, you know, never, never
Speaker 2: christianita Helm. Remember, take take this back, you know, a
Speaker 2: little while back, relative historically you had you had the
Speaker 2: nation's secular teachers across the school system teaching the children
Speaker 2: the Lord's prayer, leading the children in the Lord secular lead.
Speaker 2: That's how much it was. And look how far now
Speaker 2: it would be. It would be an abomination, you know,
Speaker 2: wo to those who call evil good and good evil.
Speaker 2: And the thing is that you know, the the first
Speaker 2: phase is calling evil good. Well except this, it's okay,
Speaker 2: let's be tolerant. But the next stage it always leads to,
Speaker 2: now we will call good evil. So it is absolutely,
Speaker 2: it is absolutely a spiritual war. And the thing is
Speaker 2: in some of the things that we've seen with wokeism
Speaker 2: now because that it's a more developed phase of it
Speaker 2: now where they're saying like basically, again, truth doesn't exist,
Speaker 2: that's your truth, my truth, but also reality doesn't exist.
Speaker 2: You know, if I call it this, this is what
Speaker 2: it is, which is crazy. You know. There's no male
Speaker 2: or family, which we'll get into, but but this is
Speaker 2: all but it's it's it's paganism returned, you know, and
Speaker 2: and with a as you said, in a spirit of apossle.
Speaker 2: You know. The other thing about Bail is that later
Speaker 2: his name became joined to almost anything. Whenever whatever you worship,
Speaker 2: Bail you have it's a bail of this. It's the
Speaker 2: bale of this. But then you have bail, you have
Speaker 2: bales above or Bel's above that which is talking about Satan.
Speaker 2: When Jesus speaks about belz above or bel bels of
Speaker 2: both to the idea, it's Bail it's bail Bail. It's
Speaker 2: from an ancient worship of ba alve Bail, bi al Zebob,
Speaker 2: that's lord of the flies or lord of or the
Speaker 2: and then Baozavol. Same thing. So when he told you
Speaker 2: so that it becomes the name of Satan. So when
Speaker 2: you look, when you say it rightfully, that this is
Speaker 2: the spirit of apostasy. It's to whatever behind behind the
Speaker 2: gods are spirits, and behind the kings of the gods.
Speaker 2: Even more so is the lord of spirits, which is Satan.
Speaker 2: And so so it is apostsey, it is directed, and
Speaker 2: these are masks.
Speaker 1: Let's go in a slightly different order than you cover
Speaker 1: in the book to the second demonic spirit that is
Speaker 1: alive and well in our culture today, and that is
Speaker 1: Moloc or Moloch. And my image of Moloch is a
Speaker 1: kind of grand beast that represents blood and war and destruction.
Speaker 1: Is that a Is that an accurate picture of Moloch
Speaker 1: and what he represents?
Speaker 2: Well? In one sense, I mean, I mean, in the
Speaker 2: ultimate spiritual sense, all the gods ultimately to destruction. But
Speaker 2: then you have gods which are particularly in their lore
Speaker 2: and worship, are l monarch means king, interesting like Baal
Speaker 2: means Lord, and yes, it is the god of I
Speaker 2: would say, the spirit of destruction, the spirit of death,
Speaker 2: and the spirit and and particularly the destruction of the
Speaker 2: innocent and of of life, the future children. And and
Speaker 2: what happened is when Israel turned away from God. I mean,
Speaker 2: this is how demonic it is. They end up, they
Speaker 2: end up offering up their own children to Moloch. And
Speaker 2: and that's where you know, judgment came upon them because
Speaker 2: of that. I mean, I mean, you know that the
Speaker 2: valley of Hinnom, which which becomes a symbol of hell,
Speaker 2: that's where you get you know, Gehenna value. Where they're
Speaker 2: where they're offering up their children in the fires, you know,
Speaker 2: and they have ancient descripted. The Greeks had ancient descriptions,
Speaker 2: you know. The Greeks, you know, also killed their children
Speaker 2: in fanticide. But they they have, you know, accounts of
Speaker 2: this where they put their children, according to the accounts,
Speaker 2: on the bronze hands of the idol god, and that
Speaker 2: God is heated up, you know, Mullik or Bell is
Speaker 2: heated up, and then the child rolls into the flames
Speaker 2: and they celebrate and they worship demonic you know what
Speaker 2: is more demonic than a parent, a mother offering up
Speaker 2: their child to be killed. And why did they do it.
Speaker 2: They did it because they believed they were pleasing the God,
Speaker 2: and the God would reward them with fertility of their fields,
Speaker 2: with gain prosperity. So how can this translate to us, Well,
Speaker 2: no accident, it's no ane that as we turned away
Speaker 2: from God, and as it happened in the West, it
Speaker 2: happened in other nations, happened in America at the same
Speaker 2: historic moment we turn away from God. What follows We
Speaker 2: begin offering up our children in the form of abortion. Now,
Speaker 2: that never would have been with christian if if the
Speaker 2: Gospel was reigning over because it was actually the Gospel
Speaker 2: that that ended infanticide, ended abortion, the killing of children.
Speaker 2: This never would have happened if the Gospel was still
Speaker 2: ruling the culture. And because when when Christianity came in
Speaker 2: to the pagan world, one of the things that one
Speaker 2: of the first things is that it ended the killing
Speaker 2: of children in fanticide, ended the killing of the of
Speaker 2: the week, ended the ended abortion. But as we turned
Speaker 2: away from God, we begin we'recrific literally sacrificing our children,
Speaker 2: mothers doing this you know, lifting it up fathers. Uh.
Speaker 2: And it's not only abortion, because the gods or Moloch
Speaker 2: is against children to begin with. And we've watched children
Speaker 2: become subject to you know, first of all, destroying marriage,
Speaker 2: destroying all the children. You have, broken children, you have,
Speaker 2: you have more abuse of children, all that sexual abuse
Speaker 2: and you have, and you have ultimately the killed of children.
Speaker 2: And the amazing thing is that back then they considered
Speaker 2: this a sacrament. I mean, this is a holy thing
Speaker 2: to kill our to kill our baby. Well, when you
Speaker 2: look at the writings one of the things I put
Speaker 2: in the book of some of the key abortionists, they
Speaker 2: and radical feminists, they will speak of abortion as holy,
Speaker 2: as sacred, and literally as a sacrament.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, let me give you a proof
Speaker 1: of this, which goes back some years when I was
Speaker 1: in the Reagan White House and I had a bunch
Speaker 1: of the uh.
Speaker 3: Sort of feminist activists.
Speaker 1: In there, and they were all demanding federal funding, you know,
Speaker 1: for abortion, and I said, you know, we're not going
Speaker 1: to be doing this, and they go, but.
Speaker 3: It's a constitutional right, and I said, well.
Speaker 2: We have.
Speaker 1: I'd say, let's let us, as a thought experiment, go
Speaker 1: along with that. It's a constitutional right. But we have
Speaker 1: many other constitutional rights. It's the right to free speech,
Speaker 1: the right to freedom of religion, the right to assemble,
Speaker 1: and I said, and none of those are subsidized by
Speaker 1: the government. So, for example, if you want to exercise
Speaker 1: your right to free speech, the government isn't going to
Speaker 1: pay you to start a newspaper.
Speaker 3: You have to do that on your own dime. And
Speaker 3: you have the.
Speaker 1: Freedom of religion and worship, but you've got to build
Speaker 1: your own church. The government isn't going to pay for that.
Speaker 1: In fact, it's prohibited from doing that. So why do
Speaker 1: you take abortion, which is frankly not even in the constitution,
Speaker 1: and not only claim that it's a right, but it seems,
Speaker 1: according to you to be a super right because it
Speaker 1: is the one right that, unlike all the others, demands
Speaker 1: federal subsidy. But to your point, they're elevating it above
Speaker 1: a right to something, approaching a sacrament.
Speaker 2: And in effect, Yeah, and then in fact they believe it,
Speaker 2: say they speak of it as a sacred as a
Speaker 2: sacred thing. That's why you know everything went crazy when
Speaker 2: Roe versus Wad was overturn. Yeah, and if you're going
Speaker 2: by rights, I mean, as you said rightfully. You know,
Speaker 2: in the Constitution there are rights the amendments, and it's
Speaker 2: you know life, yeah, liberty, suit happenings, but also free speech.
Speaker 2: So all that goes to the what happens to the
Speaker 2: baby's rights? You know, all the rights the constitutions are
Speaker 2: actually there. If this is a person, which it is,
Speaker 2: they have that as well. So this is something in peace.
Speaker 2: Well can you compare what they did back then to
Speaker 2: with Molek, Well, they killed thousands of their babies. We
Speaker 2: have killed over sixty five million of ours, you know,
Speaker 2: and this is what you know again, this is what
Speaker 2: brought judgment and destruction to Israel. You know, it was
Speaker 2: Mullik and we have exceeded. We have exceeded that and
Speaker 2: in the West. So it's not an accident. When a
Speaker 2: nation turns away from God, it particularly it begins to
Speaker 2: do it. And you know, the first nation to have
Speaker 2: legalized abortion, it was the Soviet Union. Here the nation
Speaker 2: that they got rid of God. And they then they
Speaker 2: got rid of because because because when you get rid
Speaker 2: of you quote get rid of God, you get rid
Speaker 2: of people. You know, because when when God is there
Speaker 2: then not there, then the worth of life is starts going.
Speaker 2: Look at what happens that every nation that has gone
Speaker 2: to totally atheism, I mean the major examples, well Notzi
Speaker 2: Germany going away from God, uh Russia, Soviet Union going
Speaker 2: clearly away from God. There's no more value, you know,
Speaker 2: you know, there's no the life has no more value.
Speaker 3: The preciousness of life, scacty.
Speaker 2: Of life is gone in a million ways, but it's
Speaker 2: reflected by the death of the innocent the week, the
Speaker 2: most weak are the ones who pay the price.
Speaker 3: We've covered bail, We've covered molech.
Speaker 1: Let's not talk about a less familiar deity from the
Speaker 1: pagan world, and.
Speaker 3: That is Ishtar. Who is Ishtar and what does Ishtar represent?
Speaker 2: Ishtar is one of the oldest deities ever worshiped from
Speaker 2: We know in an and many forms. You know, in
Speaker 2: in Sumera, in Sumeri, it was Inana. In the Bible,
Speaker 2: she's in the Bible ashtoreth At, which is Ishtar basically
Speaker 2: in the Phoenicians a star. But then we do know
Speaker 2: her in other forms, like like Venus and Aphrodite. That
Speaker 2: was another form of it, a little bit more sanitized,
Speaker 2: but still and so so. Ishtar is the goddess of sexuality,
Speaker 2: of sexual immorality. She's a prostitute. She's a heart lit goddess,
Speaker 2: a prostitute goddess. She's also the goddess of destruction at
Speaker 2: the same times. I mean she it's sexuality with unbridled
Speaker 2: sexual lust and destruction. She's a warrior at the same time.
Speaker 2: And the thing is that, So this is this is,
Speaker 2: this is the in the spiritual realm, the principality that
Speaker 2: drives sexual morality, that drives UH, the turning away of
Speaker 2: a nation from God through the realm of sexuality. UH
Speaker 2: seduces it through the realm of sexuality. So what happens,
Speaker 2: and you know the thing you'll see in the Bible,
Speaker 2: It'll say Bail and Ashtoreth. In the Bible, you see
Speaker 2: bail first and then often followed by Ashtoreth, the goddess.
Speaker 2: So so first you have Bail turning away from culture,
Speaker 2: turns away from God. Bail. Then what happened to America
Speaker 2: that we'd expect it to happen. You have this quote
Speaker 2: sexual revolution, same time not an accident. And so you
Speaker 2: have you have the which is the overturning of Biblical
Speaker 2: values concerning sexuality, concerning marriage, concerning male concerning female taking
Speaker 2: over our culture happened in the sixties, just as just
Speaker 2: as we started driving God out and so so Ishtar
Speaker 2: is the because she's a prostitute goddess. So what does
Speaker 2: the prostitute do? Take sexuality out of the marriage covenant
Speaker 2: and into the widespread culture or the marketplace. So what
Speaker 2: happened to America? Sexuality starts being removed from from being
Speaker 2: in the domain of the marriage covenant. It sexualizes the culture.
Speaker 2: You know, where did all that sexuality come from? The
Speaker 2: marriage bed? You know, so marriage gets weakened, the glue
Speaker 2: that holds together society, and sexuality infuses everything, the marketplace, everything,
Speaker 2: Uh with that Also, she was she was Uh, she
Speaker 2: was one who was as ultimately her effect on marriage
Speaker 2: was destructive. It also separates man and woman. It says
Speaker 2: she's something man where actually she vibes she was actually
Speaker 2: very she was very masculine in her she she she
Speaker 2: in her in her way, she's a warrior. So so
Speaker 2: she would seek to usurp you know, uh, masculinity. And
Speaker 2: so you start seeing you start seeing the the the
Speaker 2: destruction of male female relationships. In the sixties, you have
Speaker 2: radical feminism, trying to overturn everything between and he just
Speaker 2: sinks you between the gender. By the way, Ishtar was
Speaker 2: also the goddess of pornography, you know, in fact, in
Speaker 2: the ancient Greeks called her, called her the sacred har
Speaker 2: lit or in Greek pornee. And so, and the first
Speaker 2: pornography on planet Earth that we know about is the
Speaker 2: word is from the writings concerning Ishtar. So, so pornography
Speaker 2: now comes in, takes over the culture, and that spreads
Speaker 2: as it has never spread before to this day. And
Speaker 2: so you have that also. By the way, she was
Speaker 2: also the goddess of of intoxication and and and you
Speaker 2: have sex, draw drugs. You know, you have that in
Speaker 2: the culture. But then you have all that happening beginning
Speaker 2: in the sixties, particularly or exploding in the sixties. But
Speaker 2: you have something else, because there's an an even darker
Speaker 2: side to this goddess. In her ancient inscriptions, it says
Speaker 2: she says, I am a woman, I am a man.
Speaker 2: In one of the hymns, it says, you are praises her.
Speaker 2: You are the You are the goddess who turns a
Speaker 2: man into a woman. You turn a woman into a man,
Speaker 2: and so she is the goddess who not only of sexuality,
Speaker 2: but who who emerging gender, male and female, confusing male
Speaker 2: and female, replacing one with the other, the distinction between
Speaker 2: man and women, boy and girl. She is that goddess.
Speaker 2: And so and you don't it's interesting when you look
Speaker 2: at America or the West, turning from God. At the beginning,
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's marriage. It's it's now sex uside
Speaker 2: of marriage. It's sex on here. But as it gets,
Speaker 2: as it keeps going, it goes to the deeper work.
Speaker 2: And so what's happening, what's happened in recent times is
Speaker 2: just the flowering of what began back then in the sixties.
Speaker 2: And we start to it was always going to go
Speaker 2: there if we let it. And so what's happening, what
Speaker 2: happens now is the deeper work, and it's the it's
Speaker 2: the merging of male and female. And so what she
Speaker 2: had a priesthood, and her priesthood were men who dressed
Speaker 2: up as women in drag. They would dance publicly. People
Speaker 2: would take their children to see them, men in drag.
Speaker 2: And we don't know if it was libraries, but it
Speaker 2: was in the temples of Ishtar. And we all and
Speaker 2: and at the same time she had had her priests
Speaker 2: who were also men who were transitioned surgically into quote
Speaker 2: women and so and and dressed as that all that,
Speaker 2: and and so you have all that, and you have
Speaker 2: other very very stunning things about this this goddess when
Speaker 2: you look at what's happening and what's happened in our culture. Uh,
Speaker 2: she was the goddess of parades, you know, parades that
Speaker 2: merged that that confused gender with color and all these things.
Speaker 2: It actually one of one of the ancient accounts has her.
Speaker 2: It says that has men, the men who were the
Speaker 2: transitioned men who were dancing with scalpels, you know, before her, uh,
Speaker 2: celebrating their transition. You know, uh, you have. She was
Speaker 2: also the goddess who was connected to a sign, the
Speaker 2: sign of the rainbow. And so now now the rainbow
Speaker 2: belongs to God. But this is this is the She
Speaker 2: was also the goddess goddess in the mythology interesting who
Speaker 2: took what belonged to other gods to herself. So she's
Speaker 2: the goddess of the ra so the rainbow becomes the
Speaker 2: sign taking over the culture. She's also the goddess of
Speaker 2: a particular month where where she possessed the culture. There
Speaker 2: were there were processions, and it's almost like the spirit
Speaker 2: of Ishtar, you know, in the ancient takes over the women.
Speaker 2: You remember when in the Bible it says that the
Speaker 2: women are weeping for Tamos. Well, Tamos was the lover
Speaker 2: of Ishtar, of Ashtora. So it's like the possession of
Speaker 2: it takes over it. Well. The month that this all
Speaker 2: happened was called the month of Tamos okay named after
Speaker 2: and today it corresponds with the month of June, you know,
Speaker 2: one of the which she's she also got us a
Speaker 2: pride pride month, and a month of sexual alteration. You know,
Speaker 2: this is the month June. In fact, one of the
Speaker 2: ancient early Church writers writes, he writes of the procession
Speaker 2: of these things happening, and he says it happened in
Speaker 2: the month of union or June, literally June. So what
Speaker 2: we are watching is is the return of what was,
Speaker 2: you know, but even even in a even in a
Speaker 2: deeper way. And the thing is that that we are
Speaker 2: because I don't we don't know they had they had
Speaker 2: they had altered marriage, you know, which we have altered,
Speaker 2: you know. And and by the way, all these things,
Speaker 2: you know, the interesting thing is that the what really
Speaker 2: gave entrance to all this, you know, as many of
Speaker 2: many people know, is Stonewall, you know. And and Stonewall
Speaker 2: were the riots that began the movement of altering basically sexuality.
Speaker 2: And the thing is that there when you look at it,
Speaker 2: one of things there's in that night when it all happened.
Speaker 2: They are all these signs of the goddess ishtar, I mean,
Speaker 2: all of it.
Speaker 3: The symbolism of Istar all over the place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, she she was meaning she was, she was the
Speaker 2: goddess of of inns or or bars or taverns. It
Speaker 2: starts in the stone wall in you know, she's she's
Speaker 2: she's linked to the storm. Some people they called her.
Speaker 2: She's she's the person of the storm. The woman who
Speaker 2: triggered this, if you re her, was named storm or
Speaker 2: storm may there and at one of the points actually
Speaker 2: the epic of Gilgamesh, you know, famously where where he's
Speaker 2: talking about the goddess, he calls her a like a
Speaker 2: brick in the stone wall, you know, And here was Stowall.
Speaker 2: It happens, you know, the the key month. They said
Speaker 2: when it happened June. Okay, And it happens, you know,
Speaker 2: when when you approach the end of June. It it
Speaker 2: goes to the a pagan very high intense pagan time,
Speaker 2: which is the which is the summer solstice, you know,
Speaker 2: and that's what it was considered at its peak. Well,
Speaker 2: this thing happens right around the days of the solstice,
Speaker 2: the peak of the month of Ishtar, you know, at
Speaker 2: it began. This is there's something also here. It began
Speaker 2: June twenties, June twenty six, I believe when when the
Speaker 2: when the man who was going to do the raid,
Speaker 2: which is what triggered everything, he got the he got
Speaker 2: the warr and it was all signed for I think,
Speaker 2: I believe June twenty six. Interesting thing because the Supreme
Speaker 2: Court made three major decisions which altered sexuality. It was
Speaker 2: over like a twelve year period from the early two
Speaker 2: thousands to twenty fifteen with the overturning of marriage as
Speaker 2: we have known it. And the first one happened I believe,
Speaker 2: on June twenty sixth, same same time that the second one,
Speaker 2: same exact date, and the third one same exact date.
Speaker 2: They all happened on the same day the same day,
Speaker 2: and actually in ancient from the ancient writings, it says
Speaker 2: that that that day or I have to or actually
Speaker 2: on the Babylonian and Hebrew calendar. Okay that remember remember this,
Speaker 2: Remember when at that that night they lit up the
Speaker 2: White House with the rainbow, you know, almost saying we're
Speaker 2: giving it to the gods, you know, America. But that
Speaker 2: night it was it was it was a day on
Speaker 2: the Babylonian calendar, which in the Babylonian riting says that
Speaker 2: day is for the casting of a spell to turn
Speaker 2: a man to lust after a man, and that was
Speaker 2: the day that marriage was overturned, or that was the
Speaker 2: night I mean so, and it's not that anybody knew it,
Speaker 2: it's not that anybody's trying to do it. But there's
Speaker 2: a whole nother realm. There's a whole nother spiritual realm.
Speaker 1: Let's bring this home as we close out, and let
Speaker 1: me ask you as we become aware that we are
Speaker 1: seeing these ancient demonic spirits in our world today and
Speaker 1: they have the run of the world for the most part.
Speaker 1: And to me, it's also interesting to see how these forces.
Speaker 1: It could be that the withdrawal of Christianity unleashes let's say,
Speaker 1: for example, the storm of sexuality, right, But then the
Speaker 1: storm of sexuality itself becomes a weapon against God, because
Speaker 1: if you think about why do people.
Speaker 3: Rebel against the Ten Commandments?
Speaker 1: If not, it's almost a sort of you may say,
Speaker 1: pelvic rebellion. For the most part, nobody's nobody looks at
Speaker 1: ten commandments go and says, you know, lying is a
Speaker 1: really great idea.
Speaker 3: You know, it's the whole.
Speaker 1: Thing about thou shall not covet thy neighbor's wife. That
Speaker 1: is the commandment that seems to be particularly for young people.
Speaker 1: But I think across the culture a great engine of
Speaker 1: hostility to Christianity comes right out of that. If Christianity
Speaker 1: were to give way on that, you might find people
Speaker 1: being a lot more kind of open to it. But
Speaker 1: that just shows you the importance of that of the
Speaker 1: architecture of marriage as a foundation of civilization.
Speaker 3: But as we close out, let me.
Speaker 1: Ask you, where then does our hope lie? Does it
Speaker 1: lie in a recommitment? I mean, we have to obviously
Speaker 1: shut the portal, right, isn't that isn't that the only solution?
Speaker 2: And it's so many things you said, Let me say
Speaker 2: one thing here with absolutely right. You know, Ishtar, remember
Speaker 2: was a was not just the goddess of sexuality, she
Speaker 2: was the god of war. So it's a weapon. So this,
Speaker 2: this sword of Ishtar, what we've been watching has been
Speaker 2: used against believers and religious freedom more than probably anything.
Speaker 2: It's there's a reason for that. It is all linked
Speaker 2: to It is linked to the same principality it is.
Speaker 2: It becomes a weapon. Yea. And when the Gospel came
Speaker 2: into the pagan world, it was a it was the
Speaker 2: first sexual revolution. It was a revolution that changed everything,
Speaker 2: actually gave worth to you know, worth to women, worth
Speaker 2: to the sanctity of marriage. It actually liberated people from
Speaker 2: the bondage of sexual immorality and sexual slavery. So this
Speaker 2: is the other this is now the other side. One
Speaker 2: to keep in mind what we are dealing with now
Speaker 2: when you talk about the return of the gods actually
Speaker 2: very biblical because when you look at the Bible, they
Speaker 2: were all dealing with it, whether it's Moses and the
Speaker 2: gods of Egypt, Elijah and the gods of Canaan, or
Speaker 2: Paul and the gods of Rome. You know, we're all
Speaker 2: or the Maccabees and the gods of greed. It's all
Speaker 2: that was more than norm We've been living in an
Speaker 2: exception because of the Gospel. So it puts us in
Speaker 2: the realm of where the prophets were, and so we
Speaker 2: have to be radical, I mean loving, but radical like
Speaker 2: the prophets. It's very biblical, you know, the people of God.
Speaker 2: To stand for God, you have to stand against the gods.
Speaker 2: And they come in many forms, the sacred cows of
Speaker 2: the culture, whether it's wokeism, and we have to be
Speaker 2: the one like the child who says the emperor has
Speaker 2: no clothes. You know, everybody goes along with it. We
Speaker 2: have the ones to say no. You know, we have power,
Speaker 2: the power of God. You know, there's an ancient Hebrew
Speaker 2: worship actually from Moses. It says bha Alim I donna
Speaker 2: i belim, who is like you, Lord among the gods?
Speaker 2: You know, our God is greater. We have the real God.
Speaker 2: We have the power. And even if we look like
Speaker 2: we're the underdog in the culture, we are not the
Speaker 2: under dog in eternity. We are on the side of
Speaker 2: the Almighty, and so we have that power. We have
Speaker 2: to be more like that. And the other thing is
Speaker 2: that if you know at the beginning, what was it.
Speaker 2: It was the power of the gospel, not it is
Speaker 2: the going forth of the Gospel that drove these things out.
Speaker 2: We have the same power what Jesus said, you have
Speaker 2: the power to cast out Well, yeah, individually, but even
Speaker 2: maybe maybe civilizationally. You know, I was on the national
Speaker 2: mall just before the election, the last presidential election, and
Speaker 2: I was led from here. I didn't plan on sharing this.
Speaker 2: We we had a recreation of the altar of Ishtar,
Speaker 2: and we brought it to Washington and they're in front
Speaker 2: of you know, it was the mass that it was
Speaker 2: called like the million women thing, and there let's pray
Speaker 2: for the the you know, the casting out of this spirit,
Speaker 2: you know. And and I had that altar and I
Speaker 2: had a sledge hammer, and I bring it down. First
Speaker 2: of all, I did it wrong. The first time. It
Speaker 2: bounce up. Sometimes you gotta keep finding. So second time
Speaker 2: it opens up. Everybody's praying, pray pay Now, that agenda
Speaker 2: had never been rolled back since it began, but right
Speaker 2: after that, with the election and with Trump's return, actually
Speaker 2: has been whatever one thinks politically, it has been a
Speaker 2: rolling back of that agenda. Not over. The battle is
Speaker 2: for it can go back, but there has been a
Speaker 2: rolling back. We have power, and the power is the
Speaker 2: Lord Messiah is stronger, the God that we serve is stronger.
Speaker 2: It's true, it's not hype, it's real. And we are
Speaker 2: to be like the Apostles, the Prophets, and the Apostles
Speaker 2: more radical. If the darks get starker, we got to
Speaker 2: get brighter. And so we have the power. We have
Speaker 2: to go stronger in love, stronger, spread the gospel, be
Speaker 2: like the Apostles, everyone pretty much that everybody and myers
Speaker 2: in the Bible, we're dealing with the gods, and they
Speaker 2: stood against them in the power of our God.
Speaker 3: Here's my new slogan.
Speaker 1: You know you've heard of, make America great again, Make
Speaker 1: America Christian again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Meca, you can't one goes with the other. You
Speaker 2: can't want you know. I was. I was with Trump
Speaker 2: eight days before the election, and it was a gathering
Speaker 2: of literally adrea. It's led to give a word to him.
Speaker 2: But the only way you can make America great again
Speaker 2: is that America returns to the God who made America
Speaker 2: great in the first place. It's the only way. And
Speaker 2: that goes with everything we just said. It all began
Speaker 2: when we turned it all. It all can only be
Speaker 2: solved by turning back. And we can't control a culture,
Speaker 2: but we can. We can. We can decide how we're
Speaker 2: going to live, and we have to live, you know all.
Speaker 2: In some ways, it's the most exciting time. You know,
Speaker 2: it's biblical. You know, people pray. I wish I could
Speaker 2: live in Bible times. Congratulations, you were in Bible times.
Speaker 2: Now live like it, John conn thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
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