00:00:02 Speaker 1: Hey, you're listening to The Walk, a podcast that dives into our journey with Jesus, one story, one step at a time. This episode of The Walk is brought to you by our friends at Planning Center. I love Planning Center. We use them here at our church, Destination Church. Whether you're organizing Sunday services or scheduling volunteers, Planning Center gives you the tools to build a healthy, connected worship ministry, from check ins to giving music prep to communication. It's one platform designed for every step of your church. So start building your team and streamlining your Sundays at Planningcenter dot com Planning Center. 00:00:37 Speaker 2: Where ministry flows better together. 00:00:40 Speaker 1: Two Corinthians five to seven says we walk by faith and not by sight. That is the Christian life. It's not just talking to talk about walking the Walk. My name is Curtis Parks. I'm your host for The Walk this season. Well, he's the worship pastor at Calvary Church in Greensboro, North Carolina. I've known this guy for about fifteen years. One of the best singer songwriters, great voice, amazing pastor, even better father and husband, Clayton Brooks. 00:01:04 Speaker 2: Welcome to the walkman, Thank you so much. 00:01:07 Speaker 3: I'm honored, honored to be a part of this. Appreciate you, Curtis did. 00:01:12 Speaker 1: We share so many good memories and we've been on records together, We've led worship on the same stage. I've been to your church, You've been to my church. We've been in each other's houses. I'm sorry number one for just you know all that that comes with with Curtis Parks. 00:01:27 Speaker 3: It's all good, brother. 00:01:29 Speaker 1: But I think you need those guys, Like you know, we've had a friendship for like nearly fifteen years now, and I think there's seasons where friendships mean more than others, and then there's you know, friends that are just meant for a season. But we've kind of walked through a little bit of life together, had those phone calls and talk a little bit about what that means to you. What is community and friendship and like not living in isolation but really allowing other relationships to be a part of your life. What does that look like for you now? And then the past? 00:02:00 Speaker 3: Bro, man, it's everything. Honestly, I just got back from Texas. I was on a retreat with three other of my best friends who all do what we do, and Ross Fishburne David Belt and Nathan Jones are their names, and they're all in worship ministry and the whole point of us being together. We got an airbnb and I talked to my pastor about it. I say, Hey, could you could I budget for something like this instead of going to a conference? What do you think about me just doing a retreat with other worship pastors where we just hang out, wow, to share what's going on in our lives and pray for each other. I feel like that's, if not more so, it's every bit as spiritually refreshing and life giving as any conference could be. Wow, I would say more so. And my pastor was on board, and so I shared that with the other guys. Hey talk to your pastors, you know. And so there was some money that was allotted from like my worship budget for me to be able to go and get an airbnb and just hang out. And it's everything. 00:03:10 Speaker 1: Man. 00:03:11 Speaker 3: We have to have places where we can sit down with each other and just say say whatever you want. Wow, you can say whatever you want. Are you having faith issues? Say it? Are you struggling with sin in your life? Say it? Are you frustrated with your pastor? Say it? You know what's going good, say it, we want to hear it, and we want to encourage each other, you know. And that place of trust, Wow, is so meaningful for us in ministry because where I'm at right now, I'm still a bit isolated because we've been here coming up on four years. 00:03:49 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:03:50 Speaker 3: But those connections that I've had for life. Ross's in Seattle, the other two guys are in Texas, being able to come back and just reconnect and share it. We have similar like kinsman type spirits, right Yeah. And so that's the way it is with you. Anytime I sit with you, I'm like, man, Curtis is somebody I can say everything too. And I don't think you're going to hold it against me. 00:04:15 Speaker 1: No. 00:04:15 Speaker 2: But that's the beauty of our friendship, man, I mean. 00:04:18 Speaker 1: And that's the thing where I feel like so many people are walking a lonely path and they just need two or three voices. You don't have to have a ton, but two or three that you've given permission to to just know you in the depths of you, and that will hold your arms up when they need to be held up. 00:04:36 Speaker 2: That will challenge you when you need to be challenged. 00:04:38 Speaker 1: I know, Ross and Ross is one of those guys who's just the real deal. Talk to us a little bit about your story, Like give us like that Facebook snapshot of like where have you been in worship? 00:04:48 Speaker 3: Where? 00:04:48 Speaker 1: I mean you're now in North Carolina as a worship pastor. You're one of those guys where you know, I've been able to follow your journey, whether We've been walking together and sharing hot chicken, or whether I've been looking on Instagram and a give you a quick phone call. 00:05:01 Speaker 2: But you're a faithful worship leader. You care about the church. 00:05:05 Speaker 1: It's very evident in your life and your family and your posts and your songs. Give us a little snapshot of the life of Clayton brooks Man. 00:05:14 Speaker 3: Well. I I got started in worship ministry at Oaks Church which is down in Texas. Back then it was called the Oak Cliff Assembly of God. And leaders that took a chance on chance on a young kid playing keys and then singing and and believed in me and encouraged me. And now even in the writing that I started doing, if it was good or bad, they was just always going to celebrate that it was happening and wow, and made me feel like I could do this and then we started recording projects back in the days when like Hillsong was blowing up, which is which is a long time ago. It didn't even think that was possible. And so recording projects, writing all of that and being a part of that back before click tracks and in your monitors, back when there were wedge monitors, and so you had to be tight as a band and when you work, you can tell on the recording. There's one recording out there that the first one we ever did where I have a massive voice crack that is just like why did we keep this? Why didn't we overdub this? But it's there forever and anyways. But getting started there at Oaks Church, and then I became the worship pastor there in two thousand and eight, okay, and I was in that position for eleven years. I resigned at the end of twenty nineteen. 00:06:38 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:06:39 Speaker 3: And then I did some mentoring and coaching for a little bit for a couple of years before we came here to take the position here at Calvary Church. 00:06:48 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:06:49 Speaker 3: But yeah, being a part of projects like the one that we were a part of with the Semlies of God. Thing that they did was so cool and writing with you and with Ryan Williams, and then a lot of songwriting encounters over the years because of again, people that believed in me and gave me opportunities. Wow has always been such an education and a cool experience for me. Just humbling, but also like challenging to to to figure out how to how to write with other people and meet new people and write with them, you know, on the spot. It's been a really fun journey. 00:07:29 Speaker 1: And just for those who may not be familiar with some of Clayton's songs, I mean some of my favorites. I know you wrote a song called Shepherd and I think Upper Room ended up putting it on the album. From that record you're referencing that we did together won a worship collective, Every Good Gift, a great song based out of James in the Valley, Lord of All. So we're gonna put some of Clayton's songs in the show notes so you can check out. But you have such a you have such a unique voice, Like there's voices that you hear where you're just like, oh, I could tell maybe they try a little too hard in the studio, and then there's just really raw, honest voices that sound phenomenal, but they have a bit of a little bit of grit to them, a little bit of like, Man, you could tell this is a weathered worship pastor and you just carry that like and it's such a compliment weathered. Like I'm going to creed right now if you remember that album, But talk to us a little bit about that. Like when you lead worship and I mean, you've been doing this over twenty years. I don't know how long it has been, But when you get to that place in your life where it's like, yeah, I've seen some stuff, I've journeyed some miles, I've done a few trips around the sun. How does leading worship at today's stage for your life? You know, you've got your kids now that are getting involved with it. I mean, we just talked about that before we hit record. What is leading worship today? If you could go back to that early twenties, Clayton Brooks, what would you tell him just from your experience and the roads that you've traveled. 00:08:56 Speaker 3: Man, Well, I think one of the big challenges probably in being a worship leader is to not let the people you're leading lead you in those moments. I mean, I think it's good to receive feedback and observe what's happening. But a lot of times I allow my own frustration about what's happening in the room to start leading me and to kind of affect my own confidence or my own joy, my own desire for the Lord in those moments just because people aren't responding. I think that's always been maybe the and that's not just a worship leading challenge. I feel like that is a church ministry challenge when we're in leadership, when God has given us responsibility and see here I'm trusting you with this, here's a mantle of authority. Go lead, Like to figure out how to not let yourself be so overinformed by how people are responding that it affects the way that you lead. I think again, feedback is great, Like get feedback, especially from trustworthy sources, but be careful to not be led by the response of the people. Like lead from what you're hearing from the Holy Spirit and how he's how he's ministering to you and speaking to you. And a long time ago, Rachel Hunter, who was my worship pastor and and really was the first one to believe in me and give me handles for this, like, really give me handles. She would always remind us in worship ministry that people want to be led. 00:10:43 Speaker 2: Wow, that's so good. 00:10:44 Speaker 3: People want that. I want that. When when I go somewhere and I'm in a worship service, like, I do want that I need that lead me. I mean I don't. I don't feel like all the time that I should need the more I grow in the Lord, that I should need all of the how tos. But but there are definitely moments where I'm like, are we supposed to be standing right now or sitting? What? 00:11:08 Speaker 1: Like? 00:11:08 Speaker 3: What do you want me to do right now? Like we're in this room together, you're in charge, Go ahead and leave. I want to be led and it helps me. You know, leaders are there to help us. And so, but when we get in that position, if we allow the way that people are reacting to determine how we're leading, I don't know. I don't. I think we're missing it there. So I would tell that young kid, hey, be confident in the fact that God is trusting you with that position and go where you feel like He is leading you to go, and do not lead based on how people are responding. Wow, your joy is not determined on how joyful the room is. It's determined on how good God has been to you and it is in your life. So just be joyful, even if everybody's looking at you with their fingers in their ears. Be joyful. And I've had people look at me like that before, so and that's no joke either. 00:12:03 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:12:03 Speaker 3: Wow, So we don't have to get into that story. 00:12:06 Speaker 1: Listen, man, I think what you just said is so key because there are a lot of insecurities that worship leaders will bring with them on stage, and one of the worst ones is judging the response of the room as to how good the worship was, or the worship leading is, or how good of a job you're doing, how good the band is. All of those are maybe factors, but that's not the main thing. Like, talk to us a little bit about, like what is the main thing for you when you lead worship on a Sunday. Let's even just get down to the nitty gritty, like what is leading worship? I mean, here we are twenty twenty six, This term worship leader has been used for forty plus years now, and what does it mean to lead worship? 00:12:47 Speaker 2: And then what are some of those insecurities that maybe you would just say, hey, guard yourself against this, like one of them being not to allow the response of people to determine how well you think you're doing or how gifted or called you are, knowing that your identity is based in Christ. 00:13:05 Speaker 3: Yeah, something that I feel the Lord has tried to deal with me and still ongoing. It's like the battle with the flesh. Do you want the praise of God or do you want the praise of Man? And in ministry as a worship leader, when you're in the spotlight and you're on a platform and your your voice is amplified, what other opportunities do you have in life to struggle with that question? I mean, that's one of the biggest is here is a place where in normal life, like in entertainment culture, there's the praise of Man, and everybody would love that in entertainment culture because that's going to pay the bills. That's that's all. This is what I was made for and it's right right, I think, And you know, to get to the definition for us of worship leading definition of worship is is very important. That's Romans twelve one. That's offering your body as a living sacrifice. What we're doing on Sunday mornings and in services in our weekly services in our churches is a small part of that, and it's a beautiful part of that. The chance to curate these moments, to help facilitate moments where people can be together and put their eyes on the Lord and encourage one another, and using music to do that, it's wonderfully biblical. It's it's also you get the picture of heaven, like, that's what's happening in heaven with the angels and the elders and saints of old are around the throne just worshiping God together. And it's this beautiful thing that we get to do weekly and we get to be a part of that by by leading that, by you know, selecting music and preparing the order of it. It's like this really cool thing that we get to do, and it needs to be something I think that we take very seriously and honor it, not turn it into some cookie cutter we just we've got this formula and let's just do what we know works. It's more like, no, no, this is a beautiful, life giving thing where we can download from the Holy Spirit. For our congregations. What people need what they need to sing to the Lord, what they need to experience from God, and we get to partner with Him in that. And what's happening in my congregation is different than what's happening in yours. And so I can't just go, hey, what songs are working for you and let me plug him in here. I think that works sometimes. 00:15:42 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:15:42 Speaker 3: But there is a unique thing for every one of us who are worship leaders in our congregations to be able to hear from the Holy Spirit for what the people we are ministering to need. And He knows what they need way better than I do. 00:15:57 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:15:57 Speaker 3: And so it's spending time with him, hearing from him, letting him download that in my heart, and then go in and enacting the plan accordingly and being bold about it and confident in it, you know. And it's I think that that whole praise of Man thing is what really dirties up worship ministry. When we start making decisions based off of what people like or what you think might help people like you, that's way out of whack. And Gosh, I don't want to get in the way of I don't want to stand in between God and the people I want to be on the side like cheering people on, like, hey, go after God, let's go, come on, let's go together. 00:16:41 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:16:41 Speaker 3: And one of my favorite things to do, and I haven't done it in a while, but is to stop a worship set. And it's it's kind of a silly thing, but I like, hey, I want to everybody, raise up your right hand, and I'm gonna dub everyone of you a part of our worship team right now. You're all a part of the worship team. Didn't even have to audition, way to go give yourselves a hand. And here's the whole reason I would do that is because there shouldn't be like this separation between us on the platform and you out in the seats. 00:17:11 Speaker 1: Wow. 00:17:11 Speaker 3: As if you're coming to watch us do what we do. We are all a part of this. We're all a part of this team that has come together to worship him. We're all presenting to him, we're all performing for him together. And I think maybe the key for us is to not think about what makes the people smile, think about what makes him smile. 00:17:36 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:17:37 Speaker 3: Keep that at the forefront when you're leading worship. Is he smiling on this right now? If I start to get distracted by what people are thinking. I don't know that that causes him to maybe stop smiling, but I do know what blesses him. I do know what causes him to smile, and that is a pure heart that just is like, Lord, I just want to I just want to worship you to and I want to help people do the same. Dude, He's gonna smile real big at that. And just knowing that, Gosh, what's better than that, Like, give me the Lord's smile over the billion smiles that could look at me from the earth, and I will take his every day because I don't know. It just doesn't get better than that. And the thought that you could make him, that you could actually bless him by what you're doing and by helping people do the same. It's just an overwhelming thought and a very special thing. I think that helps me keep it right, you know, in my mindset about this ministry and what we do helps me keep it right and stay in the right position of heart. 00:18:45 Speaker 1: Man. That's beautiful, dude, the praise of God versus praise of man. I think if we could have that on like a plaque going into every platform of like, remember why you're doing this, and you're right. I think you know we have. I mean, it's a very celebrity culture. It's an industry based culture that has really crept in or taken over. I don't even know what you would say, but it's like you have to guard your heart and recognize why you're doing this, who you're doing this for. And it is so hard at times because so many people after service, good and bad things that they would say or you know, different opinions that you're like, I didn't really ask for that, but thank you. 00:19:24 Speaker 3: You know. 00:19:25 Speaker 1: It's like, how is it more of a practical or a spiritual posturing that you keep yourself in that desiring the smile of God over the smile of people. 00:19:36 Speaker 3: Clayton, Well, I think it's both. I mean, I think everything is spiritual to a degree. But the practical stuff that we can do, like just keeping the reminders in front of us, you know, putting the alerts on our phone, that's like, hey remember this today, putting this out, like we have some things that will put in places backstage or in my office or you know, on your bathroom mirror. It's like remember this today. Having that daily discipline of time with the scripture and just in prayer. That's those very practical but also very spiritual things, right that help us when we get those either those compliments or those criticisms. And sometimes most of the time I think people mean well, sometimes people actually mean ill towards you. Either way, it's like, Okay, I need to know, I need to receive what I should receive. Wow, and anything that is causing me and my flesh to rise up, I need to just put that before the Lord and remember that. Look, we're all imperfect. We all have moments that we kind of wish we could take back where we say things or feel things or think things, and you know, gosh, if you're super sensitive, like I can be super sensitive sometimes where I can see someone's facial expression and go, what why do you hate me right now? 00:21:02 Speaker 2: And we were friends. 00:21:05 Speaker 3: What's really funny is about that is that when I was working at the Oaks and even and here at Calvary, I've had and it became a joke that but it's kind of a sad joke for me because people would tell me, like later on after they've known me for years and like we're best friends now, they tell me, Man, when I first met you, I had a hard time knowing if you even liked me. Wow, my own facial expression was like the way it is so And I like to in conversation with people, I would I don't know if I'm still if I still do it, but I would tend to like make long pauses, yeah, and make people sit in the conversation and think after what they just said. Is like, did I say something wrong? And I wasn't meaning to do it? 00:21:48 Speaker 2: But you're just a processor. 00:21:49 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm a processor. And we have those encounters where it's like, man, if we're not like really in tune with the spirits, sometimes in our flesh we can take things and just run with them. So God, you're right with that. 00:22:03 Speaker 1: There there are so many false narratives that we literally write the story in our mind and it's usually never the case. I mean, it's the whole, it's I mean. And I learned this kind I was. I love reading up on books on just how to you know, breaking anxiety and anxious generation, and of course, you know, working with youth all the time. 00:22:24 Speaker 2: I want to be able to. 00:22:25 Speaker 1: Have these tools and resources in my back pocket about anxiety because it's everywhere and one of the biggest things with anxiety is that, you know, we we're like, well, they're gonna think this, and then we come up with this whole narrative of like they're not going to like me, or they're not going to prove or I'm going to mess up. And it's all these things ninety percent of what you think will happen that will cause that anxiety never comes to pass. 00:22:48 Speaker 2: And it's like, you know, what if And I can't. 00:22:51 Speaker 1: Remember who I heard say this, but it was like a pastor or a doctor that's many years smarter and wiser than I am, but they were saying, what if you realize that every room and every situation you're going into, the Holy Spirit's already there before you step into it. And that changed the way I lived, Clayton, to realize that before I step onto any platform, before I have any meeting in an office, before I sit down with a team member or a congregant and have that tough conversation, the Holy Spirit is there, and then I just get to come into alignment with the work of the Spirit. Talk to us about that, because you are a very spirit led worship leader. And I don't say that lightly. It feels like you're in tune with the things of the spirit. And then when you're leading, and I've been literally right besides you where you've had those moments where yeah, you do pause, you do stop, and you're not afraid of that. Talk to us about spirit led worship and what are we missing in twenty twenty six when it comes to that. 00:23:47 Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know what we're missing. I think I could maybe guess at that, but I know for me, the struggle with being a spirit led worship leader sometimes it is, well, there's definitely going to be a spiritual struggle. There's gonna because you're you're in a battle. And I think we we downplay that too much, or we just ignore it, or we just don't think about it. But you're in a battle. And I just read this passage last night at a prayer meeting from Ephesians that says, you know, we don't wage wargan's flesh and blood. We're not fighting each other, but we are fighting. We're fighting something. Wow, what are we fighting? Evil spirits? Spiritual things in heavenly realms? And we're actually in a battle. And and so coming into those moments realizing that I think being aware of that, being alert, staying sober minded, like Peter wrote to us, is really key to know that and to be aware of it and to kind of find your place in it, not to think too lowly of that position, to where you don't ever assert the authority that Jesus has given you to assert. I think the struggle for me these days in being a spirit led worship leader is honestly, it's not only spiritual, it is also technical sometimes where I and I've got to figure it out, like in our current setup, what I've got going on here with these in ears, Yeah, it's great. I hear you really well. And on Sunday mornings, to protect my ears these days, I'm wearing both ears. I put them in tight. I want to hear really well my voice and so that I'm singing on pitch, I want to hear the music and the other singer. I want to make sure that I'm serving the room musically. That there's something about that though that makes it really hard for me to feel like I am sensing what's going on in the room. And I know there's a way to put house mix and ears and stuff, so that can help. And so maybe we just got to get that fixed. But sometimes that technical part of we do I think can as much as we think it's serving us to make good music, I wonder sometimes if it's doing a disservice to us when it comes to spiritual leadership, because because it's like we're so focused on that that it's hard for us to really get a good sense of what's going on and what might be happening. And also the way that we design our services these days, you know, and that that that's not always up to us, that's mostly up to the senior leader because those are those those Sundays that's your day where you have everyone there, and so that's it's usually like the where the buck is, the book stops, you know, it's like what's that friend? But but the way those things are designed and all that, if there's if there's some space for that sensitivity, then that that enables me as a leader to to just take a breath in a moment, to to to breathe to in between songs like wait, let me just take a breath here and at least be mindful like wow, does something need to be said? Does something need to be prayed? Does something need to be sung. Do we just need to be to pause we're in I feel like we're in such a highly technical, produced culture with this wow, and I don't want to throw shade on that, Like there's so much good that comes out of it, because I can see people engaging and it's so well crafted, and the tools are there's they're powerful tools, like like the multi track stuff. It's so powerful, the tools are great. Like, I'm not throwing shade at all. I don't want us, though, to get so produced with it that we don't have a time to like, hey, let's pause here, even in a room of a thousand people, can you can you pause and just take a moment to wait and see, like something feels different today or Man, I'm getting a sense that there's some there's some something in the spiritual realms going on, like there's some there's some battling that's happening as we're singing, and and for people, like maybe there's some battling for specific people that if we just go through the plan without those moments, you might we might miss them. And that I think is the challenge today. And I think the best waits for us as spiritual leaders too, to try to avoid that or to to to just stay sensitive to the spirit is just to continue going through what we know is the right steps in this which is pray about, pray about your set, and pray daily, spend time with the Lord, know him, get his heart for people. His heart for people. His heart is not for good worship services. 00:28:52 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:28:53 Speaker 3: His heart is not for like fancy, well done church services. His heart is for the people that you're leading and for you. And so knowing his heart, the only way to do that is to is to read your Bible and pray and spend time with him and to talk with friends about him. That's the only way to get his heart in your heart so that when you get in those moments, you're reflecting that heart in leadership and you're able to make a call in the moment that's like we gotta pause here. There was a plan and we were going to go through with it, but man, I really sense that something different is happening today, and that doesn't I don't know that that needs to happen all the time, but you, as a spiritual leader, you've got to be ready for those moments to happen and be willing to be a leader in those moments and consider what that might look like. And I certainly don't get it right all the time, and most of the time, I'm afraid. Most of the time I probably fail on this side of going through the mo or going through the plan out of a fear of what might happen, of something going wrong, or some something weird happening that I can't that I don't know how to respond to. And that's real leadership fear, you know. Wow, But I think that my I've been blessed with pastoral leaders like John K. Tren and Scott Wilson who have told me, go for it, please go for it, like as be a leader, don't be afraid. If you feel like the spirit is saying do something, follow him. I trust you. And if you make a mistake, great, let's learn from it. We're all going to make mistakes. But let's go for it. Let's not let's not make the mistake of missing the moments, those spiritual moments that could that could make a difference in people's lives, like a dramatic difference in people's eyes, Like you could have a sick person get healed right in a moment because you felt that and you took a step of faith. You never know. You could have a demon get cast out and someone find freedom for the rest of their life because of a moment where you decided to pause the plan and hear from the Holy Spirit, and or you could miss those moments. 00:31:11 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:31:12 Speaker 3: And I think one day I'm going to see Jesus and he's going to be like hopefully he's gonna be like, hey, well done, good and faithful servant. Yeah, but I don't know. I don't know if he's going to bring up all the things I I might have missed. Uh. Maybe I hope not, but in this life, maybe I do. I do want to feel the weight of that, like what am I missing? 00:31:36 Speaker 2: Wow? 00:31:36 Speaker 3: And and maybe hear from him on that and not not from an angry standpoint, but just say next time to do it this way, next time, be ready in this in this way. And I think that will help us, and that will truly help us help and pastor our congregations the way that they need to be pastored and helped. 00:31:57 Speaker 1: You know, it's so interesting because I think all of our life and this is great advice for worship teams and worship leaders, but it's great advice for just people like you've talked about taking a pause, and I think about, Yeah, the technology of our world is not getting any less complicated. It's not getting any less I mean, there's just new things coming out every day. 00:32:17 Speaker 2: Every time I pull. 00:32:18 Speaker 1: Up to a stop sign, Clayton, I see I look over and I see people on their phones. It's like we are literally infiltrated with technology every moment of our day. And so the pause thing is just great for life, Like are you taking a deep breath, are you inhaling and exhaling, are you getting in God's presence? 00:32:36 Speaker 2: Are you spending time in the world. 00:32:38 Speaker 1: Are you waking up early before everybody else gets up and just having that alone intimate time with the Holy Spirit. Like I think these are things that would literally be a well spring in your life. But I do think the whole faith versus fear when it comes to leading, whether you're leading your family, you're leading at work, you're leading worship, you're leading any kind of ministry or calling, it's that faith versus fear, Like, well, I don't want to mess up, or like what if this doesn't go right? And I just wonder what you said, you know, It's like like there's gonna be so many times. 00:33:08 Speaker 2: Where we missed it simply out of fear. But what's the worst that could happen? 00:33:12 Speaker 1: Okay, say say you felt like like, oh man, I just feel like like in this moment, like like God wants to do something special and powerful. And you know, I'm not gonna say like twenty five people in the room are gonna be feeled heard of, you know, a bad back or cancer or whatever. I'm not gonna put a box on it, but I do think we need to be more open. It is a posture of openness. And I've found myself like there's so many sundays. I mean, looking back on twenty five plus years of leading worship, it's like there's been so many Sundays where it's like, Nope, we're gonna go song one, song two, song three. There's a little transition here. We're gonna have it really nice and wrapped up. And you just but if you would approach a Sunday maybe. 00:33:49 Speaker 2: With a all right, God, what do you. 00:33:51 Speaker 1: Want to do today? And I'm open. I'm open. I think that's part of it. Man, Like talk to us a little bit more because you kind of hit on it here and there just about like this over polishing, overproduced kind of world that we live in in church in America in twenty twenty six, because I'm having a lot of conversations with gen Zers and Jen Alpha and whatever younger people are than me, and there's a hunger for it's kind of wild. It's like not necessarily like poorly done services, but like stripped back, like we don't need all the bells and whistles. A lot of younger worship leaders now are kind of, hey, let's just have a click track or some. 00:34:32 Speaker 2: Of them aren't even using that right now. 00:34:34 Speaker 1: And it's like I think, you know, for those of us that maybe grew up in the era of going from the overhead projector to the lights and haze and like led walls, it was something. But there's there's a generation that's grown up only knowing the technology. Like it's like a kid that goes up to a TV and touches it because they think it's an iPad, Like they've only grown up with the technology. 00:34:56 Speaker 2: Like, are you seeing that hunger for this simple? 00:35:01 Speaker 3: I think so, yeah. I mean yeah, I have that hunger. Honestly, I've had that hunger for years now, just wanting to simplify and go back to the basics and enjoy the presence of the Lord with people. I mean, I've said this many times. My favorite worship experiences are the ones when the power goes out. Yeah, yep, and you're like, what Lord, why would you allow this? And then and then you're like, wait, hey, let's just keep worshiping. Let's go out, And like that happened to us years ago at the Oaks. We had a worship night scheduled and like two hours before the night was supposed to take place. We had the big plan and we're so excited and then a storm rolls through the power goes out, and at the Oaks, at least at the time, we knew there's no way it's coming back on anytime soon. We were like, we were like on the same line as a golf course in a graveyard and so, and the trees would fall on the lines and they're not going to visit that, They're going to go take care of the houses, right, not to have the golf course graveyard and then the church. So it was like, well, what do we do the powers out do we just get the word outlet we're canceling tonight it's like, well, what if we wheel in the grand piano into the lobby. We had a big concourse there, so let's wheel that in, Let's set up some chairs for anybody that might need chairs, and let's just go for it acapella with the piano and without a sound system. And it was beautiful to hear everybody's voices in that space, and you know, people come together and they're like, you get to remind them in those moments that we don't need all these things to worship the Lord. And we've had moments like that at Calvary too, where it's like I really appreciate the the that when it happens sometimes because it reminds us we don't need that. You know, you don't need the amplification. I mean, if you have a really large room, you kind of do. But even at that, like if you had an arena of like ten thousand people and the power went out, but it was a worship service, I feel like because everybody was there for that, they would still probably find a way to keep worshiping and it would probably it would probably be one of the most beautiful experiences of their lives because it's like, here we are and we love Jesus. We clearly love Jesus that even in moments like this, will continue to worship. And my word, take any trip overseas to a church overseas. My wife just went to Cuba and traveled to all these different churches to do women's conferences and to see those ladies worship in their setting. When they're in Cuba, there literally is no power hardly at all. Right now, Wow, there's no air conditioning. It's hot, it's gross, it's like, but they will, they'll walk to the church, they'll come in and you'll have twenty or thirty ladies in these small churches with the tin roof and they're baking and there's like an oven where they're just baking. But they're there with smiles on their faces and so grateful that you've come from America and here we are to worship together. And gosh, if my wife was on here, she would tell you, probably in tears, that the worship was beautiful and it was such a blessing. And you know what, when I if you go to a night of worship with Bethel or Elevation or Brandon Lake or all these guys, it's going to be beautiful and powerful, and it's but in its own special and powerful way. Go into Cuba with the congregation of twenty people and seeing the joy on their face and seeing them worship Lord, you're seeing like a faith in action. I'm hesitant to say that that's a better worship service than elevation or what all these other great I'm not going to say that we don't need to compare those things. But the faith like that you see and that you would receive from wow, like in those people. I've been in places like that where I have seen that kind of faith on display. That is like it challenges my faith and it strengthens my faith to go, Wow, you're serving Him without not only without sound and lights and great music and great tracks, you're serving him without power at your house and without air conditioning, and without without a ton of people around you doing it as well, you know, like the I heard years ago one of the fastest growing churches is the church in Iran. 00:39:46 Speaker 2: Right underground church. 00:39:48 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And it's that level of faith like that's I think that's what what maybe we're missing is Wow. Wow is wow that And it's the kind that only has developed through trial and because we don't have a lot of like difficult real super difficult trial. That's not true. Like I know people that are going through tough stuff and their faith. I'm like when I see that their faith on display, I'm like, Wow, that that is that's real worship on display and that I don't know. I think we miss out sometimes with the production and we try to maybe conjure that up a little bit with the lyrics that we're singing and like mm, but it's really like just the genuine faith of people that are going through it or that don't have anything. Wow, And you get a glimpse of that when stuff goes wrong and things don't work, you get a little glimpse of that. 00:40:46 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so good man. 00:40:48 Speaker 1: I can tell you personally, Like you know, and you and I we both traveled a little bit and led worship here and there. There's a church that I've led worship at probably a dozen times. 00:40:58 Speaker 2: But one time I was there and it was a larger church. 00:41:01 Speaker 1: The power went out and and it's usually like super high ten out of ten production cameras and lights and all this stuff. They have a huge online presence and the thing they all I was just back there a few weeks ago. And the thing they always bring up is, man, I'll never forget when the power went out and you just stepped to the front of the stage with your acoustic guitar and led a thousand people a capella And how great is our God. I'll never forget that, Clayton. It's amazing what happens when we get out of the way. And there's so many times where the Holy Spirit can just rush in when we put our plan to the side, and it's and it's like, what's what's crazy is that? 00:41:40 Speaker 2: Like when you would. 00:41:41 Speaker 1: Talk to maybe maybe nine out of ten young young worship leaders worship teams, it's like, well, nobody's looking on social media what's happening at a church of thirty in Cuba to be like let's let's let's go after that. Everybody's looking at these larger spaces, these bigger movements, these more well known names, and like, man, let's go after that. And I think what you just said is like maybe maybe we shouldn't be doing. 00:42:07 Speaker 2: That so much. 00:42:08 Speaker 1: Like talk to us a little bit about that, Like how do you guard against this chasing endlessly after whatever success is in an industry celebritized culture of worship in America. 00:42:22 Speaker 2: How do you keep it pure. 00:42:24 Speaker 1: And simple and just motivated to see a move of God? 00:42:30 Speaker 3: Oh? Man, I mean I look at those places too. I love it. I love seeing the videos. I was just watching Jesus Be the. 00:42:42 Speaker 2: Name, Oh, such a great song the other day. 00:42:44 Speaker 3: And watching is It Tiffany Hudson and just the beautiful video shots and the people worshiping and the passion with which they're singing. There's nothing wrong with that, right, I mean, I am not the seer like Jesus, like the Holy Spirit can see everybody's heart. Like I know why you're. 00:43:06 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're not. We're not these you know, just downplaying. 00:43:09 Speaker 1: I love it too, I I you know, we're we're both kind of in that vein of like we're watching. 00:43:14 Speaker 2: Everything and seeing the beauty in it all. But yeah, keep going. 00:43:16 Speaker 3: How do I guard? Uh? I I don't know. I think that it's just a we're all on this like individual journey with the Lord, but it's also a corporate one, and so I think it's just really important for us to be aware that that there that there there can be some significant flesh issues, and we have to guard that for ourselves first before we ever, you know, start trying to remove the the specs in other people's eyes. We have to watch it for ourselves first and be willing to be ready to confess when when there is the issue there, like I'm doing this for me more than I'm doing this for the Lord, or I'm trying to do this to build some cool, exciting thing because it's going to make a name for ourself. But he leads us through passive righteousness, not for our sake, but for His namesake. That that's the prayer right that David prayed, like for your namesake. There's an understanding there that in the end, all of the glory is his and all of us. Who is it that said that the ground at the cross is level. It's the same level for everybody, and all of us are on the same plane before God. From from Carrie, beautiful, wonderful Carrie Job who sings beautifully and writes beautiful songs. Gosh do I love for worship leading and have for years To the lady in Cuba that's just attending the church, to the lady and Iran who's potentially going to be killed that day because she's a believer, to you know, for all of us to well, the greatest and the least. And according to Jesus, it's like the least might have the front row seat at the cross, like they might be first, and it's in line. So but all of us have this level place in the end when we're in heaven together, we're going to be standing with all the great saints of old. All I think around just worshiping Jesus and casting our crowns at his feet and going, you know, all the glory is yours. Wow, what glory do I have? You know? So why fight for it now on this side? Why fight for that little piece of glory that I could have when it's like anything that I can get that would come to me needs to go right back to him because it all came from him in the first place. I think one of the reasons why the Church loves the Song Worthy of it All so much, at least in my case, is that line that says, from you are all things to you all things. 00:46:00 Speaker 2: Yep. 00:46:01 Speaker 3: If if I could tattoo my body with something, maybe id that, because I gosh, it does me so much good to remember that everything came from him. Wow, one thing I have came from him? That teaches me not to worry, and it teaches me never to be prideful in my own in my own self, everything came from him, Everything goes back to him. 00:46:25 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:46:25 Speaker 3: And so I'm just I'm just like this conduit of receiving and giving. And am I upset about that? Heck no, I'm not upset about that. Like, I'm happy to be alive and to be a part of this and to be able to exist. He wanted me to exist in here. I am so to be able to be a part of what he's doing is so beautiful. To be loved by him and appreciated by him. Man, how incredible is this that we have this. I don't need anything else. It's like David saying, the Lord is my shepherd. I have no needs. I've got him. So all of it is from him and to him, And I'm totally cool with that. It's just my flesh. It's my flesh that fights and wars with me and is like, you need this, you need this, you need this. People don't like you, So change yourself so that they're like this. People, Wow, aren't listening to your songs, So write them differently so that more people will listen. Not getting the stream numbers you want. What do you got to do differently to get those streams up? You're not successful. Your streams are too low. There's not enough views on your YouTube channel. There's you know, there's not people come into your church and it's wow, it's all your flesh just constantly warring with your spirit. When your spirit knows the Lord is my shepherd, I have all I need. I'm just here to serve. Wow. So bro, I'm getting preachy. 00:47:43 Speaker 1: No, it's so good. That is so good. Here's what I realize, Clayton, from what you just shared. In a world that's so filled with complications, that's so many messages we see more than ten thousand advertisements a day on how are life needs to look? How things can get better, bigger, faster, stronger, all that stuff, and what you just shared, it's kind of reckoned me, man, because it's like from you are all things to you? Or I was just telling my son yesterday, we can't take anything with us when we go right, it's back to dust and so everything we do because he was talking, I mean, we're having these conversations now he's eleven, and I was literally like, it's all about legacy. The only thing you can leave behind is how you've impacted others and what I want to get to heaven. And like somebody tap me on the shoulder and be like, hey, you never knew me, but this one thing that you did, I'll never forget it. It's like, that's what I'm living for, man, It's to serve, it's to leave a legacy in people. 00:48:50 Speaker 2: And that's so simple. It's a simple gospel. And the Lord is our shepherd. 00:48:55 Speaker 1: We don't lack anything when we have him, and we when we live with Him at the center. 00:48:59 Speaker 2: I mean, that's a masterclass on living. That's from him are all things, and to him are all things. 00:49:05 Speaker 1: Man. And I thank you for that today, bro, Like so you can get preachy anytime you want. 00:49:10 Speaker 2: Man, that's so good. Yeah, that's so good. 00:49:14 Speaker 3: God is good. 00:49:15 Speaker 2: Man. I don't know what better advice to leave us on than that. 00:49:19 Speaker 1: Man. It truly does feel like two old buds taking a walk and being better at the end of it for it. 00:49:24 Speaker 3: So I just wish we were in the same spot. Man. I'd love to hang with you. 00:49:27 Speaker 2: Again soon soon, Clayton. 00:49:29 Speaker 1: We need to get some good coffee and watch some survivor together. 00:49:33 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, you're the reason I ever watched this season. 00:49:36 Speaker 2: Fifty. It's good man, it's good fifty. I know, right, fifty. 00:49:41 Speaker 1: But I really I love you, man, love your family, appreciate you taking a walk with us today. 00:49:45 Speaker 3: Brother you bet hey all My love to you and to everybody that might listen to this, especially if you're a worship leader. Yeah, anywhere, any sized church, I'm with you and I'm available to you. You at Clayton Brooks is my Instagram. Send me a message if you need anything or you just need some encouragement. I know it's a tough job, wow, And ministry is not easy because you're dealing with people and you are also one and it's so it's hard. But I'm here for you, and I just want to give all of you out there thanks for the gift that you're giving to Jesus and to his church. The Lord loves you and appreciates you, and the Lord bless all of you for the work that you do for the church. And you two, Curtis, I know this is not a part of your job description at your church. I don't think so. But I know that you're giving extra to help people and to see people flourish in their ministry, and that blesses the Lord, and it blesses me, and it blesses other worship worshippers and worship leaders. So thank you, so so much. 00:50:56 Speaker 2: Wow. 00:50:56 Speaker 1: Well, if you need that encouragement, I can vouch for Clay and one of the most honest and real dudes out there. 00:51:03 Speaker 2: You're a goat man. I appreciate you so much, brother. 00:51:05 Speaker 3: I appreciate you. Thanks Curtis. 00:51:08 Speaker 1: Hey, you've been listening to The Walk, a podcast that dives into our journey with Jesus, one story, one step at a time. This episode has been brought to you by Planning Center. Whether you're organizing Sunday services or scheduling volunteers, Planning Center gives you the tools to build a healthy, connected worship ministry. 00:51:27 Speaker 2: Make sure you go and 00:51:28 Speaker 1: Check them out at Planningcenter dot com Planning Center where ministry flows better Together