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Speaker 1: Life Audio. We are talking about gratitude today, and maybe

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Speaker 1: whenever you hear the word gratitude, you think about gratitude

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Speaker 1: is an attitude. But what if it was more than that,

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Speaker 1: more than just a feeling, but a practice that can

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Speaker 1: actually be formative to our relationship with God. That is

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Speaker 1: what we are diving into in this week's episode. Hello, Hello, Hello,

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Speaker 1: ladies and gents, and welcome to this week's episode of

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Speaker 1: The Botton Beloved Podcast. As always, it's a girl Kirby

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Speaker 1: Kelly back at it again, and I'm really excited about

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Speaker 1: today's topic. I feel like I say that in every episode,

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Speaker 1: You're probably like, how much excitement does this girl really

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Speaker 1: have for everything and everyone that comes on our podcast?

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Speaker 1: And the answer, truthfully is a lot. Because every person

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Speaker 1: that I have on here, every book that I read,

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Speaker 1: every conversation I have, even every topic that I personally

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Speaker 1: talk about are things that I find importance, that I

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Speaker 1: find true genuine treasure and weight in, especially when it

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Speaker 1: comes to our Christian walk and our abiding in Christ.

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Speaker 1: And I think the topic of gratitude, which we're going

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Speaker 1: to dive into today, is one of those topics that

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Speaker 1: I've seen. I was actually talking to my guests about

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Speaker 1: literally right before I started recording. I've seen a lot

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Speaker 1: of people talk about it. I think it's become very

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Speaker 1: popular in the world of just, you know, having your

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Speaker 1: gratitude journal, writing these things down. But what does it

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Speaker 1: look like as a Christian to have a spiritual discipline

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Speaker 1: of gratitude when it comes to abiding in Christ and

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Speaker 1: connecting with God. And I'm so excited that Kent Dunnington

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Speaker 1: he's joining me today. He actually wrote a book and

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Speaker 1: it's out now. It's called Gratitude to God, The Heart

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Speaker 1: of Christian Formation. And I think this is such an

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Speaker 1: awesome and timely discussion that we're gonna be having today

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Speaker 1: on the pod. So, Kent, welcome to the podcast. Thanks

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Speaker 1: for being here. Can you just introduce yourself and let

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Speaker 1: everyone know a little bit about who you are, what

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Speaker 1: you do, what you're passionate about.

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Speaker 2: Sure, thanks for having me on the podcast. Kirby. Yes, So,

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Speaker 2: I am a professor of philosophy. I teach philosophy at

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Speaker 2: Biola University in California, and I'm interested generally what most

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Speaker 2: of what I read about and try to write about

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Speaker 2: are the virtues in the Christian life. And so for

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Speaker 2: the last few years, I've been thinking a lot about

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Speaker 2: gratitude and this book comes from that time of thinking

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Speaker 2: and study.

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Speaker 1: I think that's great. I actually, when I was applying

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Speaker 1: to universities, which feels like ages ago, even though I'm

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Speaker 1: still young, Biola was one of my top schools that

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Speaker 1: I applied to, but the Lord ended up calling me

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Speaker 1: to DBU. So I went to DVU and I loved it.

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Speaker 1: But hey, Biola not a bad place to be called

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Speaker 1: to be serving the Lord over there. So yes, creation, Well,

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Speaker 1: that's great. So your book. I'm excited to dive into

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Speaker 1: this because, like I was telling you earlier before I

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Speaker 1: hit record, gratitude has been something that God has really

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Speaker 1: been walking not just me through in the past year,

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Speaker 1: but my husband through in the past year of actually

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Speaker 1: being more mindful to express gratitude towards the Lord. And

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Speaker 1: so I'm wondering what made you want to write a

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Speaker 1: book about this about gratitude, specifically, knowing your background in philosophy,

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Speaker 1: knowing that you are interested in really diving into Christian virtue.

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Speaker 1: Is it because you see a lack of gratitude in

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Speaker 1: the Christian community. Is it because we're getting gratitude wrong?

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Speaker 1: Just what was the thing that made you want to

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Speaker 1: write this book.

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Speaker 2: Initially, I think it was a combination of really two things.

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Speaker 2: One having been told throughout most of my life that

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Speaker 2: gratitude is really important for Christians and that we had

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Speaker 2: lots to be grateful to God for, and that gratitude

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Speaker 2: was the basic Christian attitude and things like that, on

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Speaker 2: the one hand, and on the other hand, finding that

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Speaker 2: if I was really honest, I struggled with it. Of course,

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Speaker 2: I knew that when I would pray, certainly, when I

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Speaker 2: would pray publicly, I would give expressions of thanks to God.

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Speaker 2: But what I recognized was that, in contrast to someone

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Speaker 2: like my grandmother, who I write about a little bit

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Speaker 2: in the book, for whom gratitude to God just sort

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Speaker 2: of seems to arise out of her like just constantly,

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Speaker 2: that wasn't my experience at all. Gratitude to God seemed

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Speaker 2: like something that I had really work to do, and

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Speaker 2: I was puzzled about why that should be, because in

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Speaker 2: the rest of my life, I don't feel like I

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Speaker 2: struggle a lot with gratitude, gratitude for my friends, or

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Speaker 2: my family or my spouse. So I wrote the book

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Speaker 2: because I wanted to think about and better understand what

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Speaker 2: were particular obstacles to living a life of gratitude to God.

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Speaker 2: So the book is directed to people who who do

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Speaker 2: struggle with that. And I know there's some people for

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Speaker 2: whom gratitude to God probably does come naturally. But I

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Speaker 2: also know just from talking to people, that there are

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Speaker 2: lots of us who know that we should be grateful

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Speaker 2: to God more regularly, who want to be, but struggle

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Speaker 2: to get there. M M.

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Speaker 1: And I think that there's so many things that can

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Speaker 1: cause for people, even Christians, to have a hard time

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Speaker 1: with expressing gratitude to God, whether that be because of

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Speaker 1: seasons of suffering or of disappointment, or not having our

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Speaker 1: prayers answered the way that we wanted. And we kind

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Speaker 1: of allow gratitude to become this thing where it's almost

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Speaker 1: like an exchange where it's like, well, when I get

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Speaker 1: what I want, then I'm able to express thanks to God.

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Speaker 1: But it's like, is that the formula for gratitude is?

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Speaker 1: Is that the expression of gratitude and the motivation behind

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Speaker 1: the gratitude that we show towards God. And so I

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Speaker 1: was wondering could you maybe speak to that, because I

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Speaker 1: know for me the past three years have been a

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Speaker 1: very trying time for me personally when it comes to

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Speaker 1: just being in seasons of suffering. I finally feel like

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Speaker 1: for me personally, can't like I'm coming out of this

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Speaker 1: like long dark winter into this spring. And it's easy

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Speaker 1: when we're in like a time of spring of bloom

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Speaker 1: of life to really express thanks to God, to really

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Speaker 1: have gratitude for every little thing, especially when we're coming

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Speaker 1: out of the other side of something hard. But I

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Speaker 1: think it can be really hard for people to grapple

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Speaker 1: with gratitude when they feel like they are trying to

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Speaker 1: reconcile some of the things that God allows or the

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Speaker 1: things that we go through, the brokenness that we just

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Speaker 1: endure that we can often even just pinpoint and put

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Speaker 1: on this perfect and loving God. So would you speak

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Speaker 1: to that, maybe just the idea of people who might

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Speaker 1: be grappling with gratitude because of circumstance and attributing that

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Speaker 1: to God.

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Speaker 2: Sure, I think you're so right. We typically find it

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Speaker 2: easiest to practice gratitude when we get things that we

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Speaker 2: want or things that we really like, and these things

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Speaker 2: satisfy some need or desire that we have. When that

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Speaker 2: happens it's really easy to recognize the gift that has

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Speaker 2: been given to us as a gift, and gratitude arises

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Speaker 2: almost naturally from us. And if it were true that

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Speaker 2: we only needed to practice gratitude to God when everything

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Speaker 2: was going well and when God was answering all of

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Speaker 2: our prayers and giving us everything we wanted, we really

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Speaker 2: probably wouldn't have too much trouble. The problem is that's

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Speaker 2: not the way God seems to work, and the Bible

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Speaker 2: calls us, as you know, to a much more consistent

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Speaker 2: practice of gratitude than that. The Bible seems to suggest

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Speaker 2: that we should be able to and are called to

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Speaker 2: and invited to be grateful even in times of great suffering, distress, disappointment,

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Speaker 2: and the Bible is filled with characters who do that

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Speaker 2: in remarkable ways. And so I think it is a

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Speaker 2: peculiar kind of call to learn how to practice gratitude

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Speaker 2: for a person God who is capable. Certainly God is

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Speaker 2: capable of always giving us what we want, but in

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Speaker 2: his wisdom, doesn't do that. And it's actually quite hard

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Speaker 2: to learn how to adopt a posture of gratitude in suffering,

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Speaker 2: as you say, in disappointment and disillusionment and that takes practice,

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Speaker 2: and so the book is about just how hard that

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Speaker 2: is and trying to name in a very simple way

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Speaker 2: all of the ways in which God's generosity to us

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Speaker 2: and God's kindness to us doesn't necessarily come packaged in

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Speaker 2: the way we would want it to. And then the

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Speaker 2: second part of the book is, well, given that God

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Speaker 2: is strange to us in these ways, and God's generosity

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Speaker 2: is strange to us, how do we need to practice

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Speaker 2: to get better at remaining in a posture of gratitude something.

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Speaker 1: I love that you're highlighting that word practice specifically, because

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Speaker 1: even just moments ago, in the very beginning when we

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Speaker 1: started talking, you talked about like this attitude of gratitude,

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Speaker 1: And it's like, I love that you're drawing it as

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Speaker 1: more than just an attitude. Gratitude is more than just

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Speaker 1: you know, a way that we think or a way

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Speaker 1: that we feel and behave and show on the outside

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Speaker 1: and express on the outside. But it's a deeper thing

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Speaker 1: when it moves from just an attitude that we have

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Speaker 1: to this place of practice. So can you kind of

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Speaker 1: dive into that of just the idea of gratitude being

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Speaker 1: more than just this attitude that we have towards God

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Speaker 1: or just as Christians. But it really is this like

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Speaker 1: formative practice that we have to step into and engage

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Speaker 1: with with God.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So there are a couple of reasons that I

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Speaker 2: think could be hard to recognize that gratitude is a

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Speaker 2: practice that we have to undertake and not just something

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Speaker 2: that sort of happens to us. One of the obstacles

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Speaker 2: is that we tend to think that once we learn gratitude,

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Speaker 2: which many of us learn it as children, most of

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Speaker 2: us our parents really work hard to get us to

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Speaker 2: learn how to be grateful. And if you think about it,

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Speaker 2: if you yourself have been a parent or you've watched

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Speaker 2: other parents do this, it's hard work. It takes a

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Speaker 2: lot of repetition to get a child even to learn

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Speaker 2: how to say thank you in the right moment. And

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Speaker 2: you can think about what a huge accomplishment it is

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Speaker 2: as a parent on that day when your child for

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Speaker 2: the first time says thank you in the right time

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Speaker 2: without you having to tell them to do it. So

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Speaker 2: we sort of know that there is a lot of

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Speaker 2: work in training and practice involved in learning gratitude. But

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Speaker 2: then I think we mistakenly assume that once we learn

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Speaker 2: the skill of interpersonal gratitude on the day to day

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Speaker 2: level with other people, it's just going to naturally translate

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Speaker 2: into gratitude to God. But in fact God is in

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Speaker 2: so many ways so unlike the people and the benefactors

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Speaker 2: that we are practiced at giving thanks to that, it's

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Speaker 2: like we have to relearn. We're little children still trying

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Speaker 2: to learn how to be thankful to this very different

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Speaker 2: kind of giver. So that's one thing that is an

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Speaker 2: obstacle I think to the recognition that gratitude is of practice.

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Speaker 2: The other is that, for sort of complicated historical reasons,

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Speaker 2: which I go into a little bit in the book,

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Speaker 2: we have come to focus especially on the feeling of

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Speaker 2: gratitude as the heart of gratitude. In fact, it's quite

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Speaker 2: one of the things that got me so interested in

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Speaker 2: this project is as a philosopher, I read a lot

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Speaker 2: of literature on sort of philosophical definitions of gratitude, and

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Speaker 2: in the contemporary philosophical scene, almost without exception, gratitude is

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Speaker 2: identified primarily as a particular kind of emotion. But if

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Speaker 2: you look back historically, even if you read the Apostle Paul,

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Speaker 2: who writes more about gratitude than any other ancient author.

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Speaker 2: Paul rarely ever talks about the feeling of gratitude. Instead,

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Speaker 2: he talks about the practice of thanksgiving. So really, what

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Speaker 2: I wanted to do in this book is to say,

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Speaker 2: let's return to the biblical sources. Let's see what Paul

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Speaker 2: puts at the center of the practice of thinking. And

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Speaker 2: let's not assume that we already know how to do

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Speaker 2: it just because we know how to practice thanksgiving and

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Speaker 2: experience gratitude with other people in our lives.

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Speaker 1: Some other obstacles that I remember you identifying in your

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Speaker 1: book when it comes to gratitude are things like in attention,

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Speaker 1: things like cluelessness and hardheartedness, like that, these can be

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Speaker 1: obstacles that we run into in our every day when

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Speaker 1: it comes to entering the practice of gratitude. Is there

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Speaker 1: one of those that you feel like is most common

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Speaker 1: among Christians or is there one that you have had

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Speaker 1: to work through personally in your own life as you

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Speaker 1: have pursued active gratitude to God. I'm just wondering if

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Speaker 1: maybe you could even like flush those out a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because I think those can be really identifiable things in

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Speaker 1: our own life of like, oh, this might be a

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Speaker 1: roadblock for me when it comes to practicing this formation

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Speaker 1: of gratitude to God.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so I haven't thought a lot about whether or

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Speaker 2: not there's one of those that's more prevalent, you know,

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Speaker 2: sort of in our time than others. But I think

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Speaker 2: so this is sort of a person a person thing.

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Speaker 2: It depends. But I can just say in my own experience,

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Speaker 2: I think I have struggled a lot with hard heartedness,

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Speaker 2: to be honest, and this hearheartedness is a natural byproduct

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Speaker 2: of suffering and of difficulty. I think it took me

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Speaker 2: a long time to realize how much resentment I had

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Speaker 2: towards God, partly because I thought it was unacceptable to

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Speaker 2: have resentment towards God, and also because I thought it

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Speaker 2: was irrational. But of course feelings like resentment are not

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Speaker 2: necessarily rational, that's the as we all know. So I

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Speaker 2: think it took me a while to realize that part

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Speaker 2: of my struggle with gratitude had to do with heart heeartedness,

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Speaker 2: but also inattention is a problem of mine. I think

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Speaker 2: I'm so focused on the things that I care about

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Speaker 2: and generally tunnel visioned about them, that it's hard for

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Speaker 2: me to even be interested in anything that doesn't sort

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Speaker 2: of immediately register for me as worthy of my attention.

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Speaker 2: And so I think a lot for me of growth

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Speaker 2: in the practice of gratitude has been trying to figure

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Speaker 2: out habits and patterns of life that force me to

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Speaker 2: see things that I otherwise wouldn't have seen. So I

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Speaker 2: do think that a huge part of growth in gratitude

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Speaker 2: is growth in seeing. You cannot be thankful for that

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Speaker 2: which you can't see. And there's so much going on

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Speaker 2: around us that we just can't see because we don't

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Speaker 2: have eyes for it.

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Speaker 1: That's so true. We can get just so caught up

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Speaker 1: in our own little world, our own little bubble, like

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Speaker 1: the next thing I think about. Even just like me

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Speaker 1: as a person, I'm very much go go go where

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Speaker 1: I'm moving on from thing to thing to thing. And

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Speaker 1: I think even with that, whenever there is something that

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Speaker 1: interrupts quote unquote my plans or like how I'm wanting

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Speaker 1: things to unfold, it's easy to harp on that thing

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Speaker 1: and realize what I've begun to realize now that I've

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Speaker 1: been taking more time to just step back, to be still,

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Speaker 1: to actually practice gratitude to God in my day to

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Speaker 1: day I've been able to catch those moments where I'm

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Speaker 1: where I'm finding myself harping about things or complaining about

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Speaker 1: things and really analyzing like in the grand scheme of things. Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: number one, have I brought this thing to God? Or

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Speaker 1: am I just like mad at him for it or

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Speaker 1: stuck on this? Or are there so many other things

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Speaker 1: to be grateful for? Or is God trying to even

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Speaker 1: like reshape and reframe my perspective my pacing on certain things,

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Speaker 1: Like there really is a grace and a gratitude even

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Speaker 1: with God interrupting what we would want to have rather happened,

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Speaker 1: but then him being able to kind of slow instill

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Speaker 1: us down to see what it is maybe that He

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Speaker 1: might be redirecting. So I think gratitude has even just

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Speaker 1: like for me personally reshaped, like the obstacles of just

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Speaker 1: like busyness and rushing and kind of like you said,

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Speaker 1: like not taking the time to just like pause and

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Speaker 1: see what it is that God wants me to see

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Speaker 1: in this season that I'm in, or how He might

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Speaker 1: even be working through the suffering that I'm going through.

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Speaker 1: I know that was certain in this past season of

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Speaker 1: my life of just really asking God what do you

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Speaker 1: want to do here? Are you still good in this place?

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Speaker 1: And what can I hold between this tension of having

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Speaker 1: genuine gratitude for God, not just praise be to God,

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Speaker 1: but actually thank You Jesus for these things while holding

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Speaker 1: on to that tension of some of these things are

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Speaker 1: really hard. It's still and I think that's an important

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Speaker 1: thing to even touch on too, is when it comes

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Speaker 1: to gratitude to God, I think some Christians can really

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Speaker 1: heavily lean into minimizing pain, and we as a community

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Speaker 1: can either come across as tone deaf to those who

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Speaker 1: are suffering, of just slapping on the well God is

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Speaker 1: good all the time label. It's like he is and

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Speaker 1: I believe that, but sometimes it can be really hard

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Speaker 1: to express gratitude and even walk alongside other people in

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Speaker 1: their sorrows and coming across as tone death. So I'd

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Speaker 1: kind of like to hear your thoughts on that or

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Speaker 1: your two cents on that of how do we engage

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Speaker 1: even as a community with walking out gratitude without appearing

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Speaker 1: tone deaf to those who are suffering, whether they're in

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Speaker 1: the church or outside of the church.

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Speaker 2: One of the hardest chapters for me to write in

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Speaker 2: the book was the chapter on suffering, and it's also

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Speaker 2: probably the most autobiographical chapter in the book, which is

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Speaker 2: not something that we academic types are typically comfortable with.

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Speaker 2: Felt very vulnerable writing, but I tell about my own

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Speaker 2: experience of suffering from a chronic pain condition for you know,

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Speaker 2: now over twenty years, and I share about how the

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Speaker 2: church for me during periods of acute suffering was often

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Speaker 2: a place where I just felt alienated by kind of

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Speaker 2: the I guess, the relentless positivity. And I tell a

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Speaker 2: story in the book about a visit to a church

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Speaker 2: in Long Beach shortly after I moved to southern California.

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Speaker 2: And I'll never forget it because during the you know,

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Speaker 2: the praise and worship, during the singing portion, there was

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Speaker 2: a woman seated a piano who was playing music. There

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Speaker 2: was no band, she was the only musician on the stage,

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Speaker 2: but she was playing these songs that I had also

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Speaker 2: never heard before. The congregation knew them, so evidently she

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Speaker 2: had taught them these songs. But man, they were so

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Speaker 2: different than any other songs I'd ever heard. They were

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Speaker 2: what we would call songs of suffering. There were songs

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Speaker 2: of lament. They were expressing deep sadness, crying out to God,

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Speaker 2: where are you God? The sort of language that we

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Speaker 2: see in the psalms, but it doesn't show up a

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Speaker 2: lot in Sunday morning service, and it kind of makes

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Speaker 2: us nervous. And it was the I still remember sitting

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Speaker 2: in my chair and just weeping, and it was really

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Speaker 2: the first time in so long that I had felt

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Speaker 2: that I could bring all of my experience to the church.

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Speaker 2: And so a lot of what I write about in

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Speaker 2: the book is how the practice of honest lament, which

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Speaker 2: is like raw and it requires bringing our pain before

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Speaker 2: God and speaking honestly, even sometimes angrily, with God, that

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Speaker 2: you cannot be a person who grows into gratitude with

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Speaker 2: God unless you're also a person who's willing to be

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Speaker 2: honest to share your pain with God and typically with others.

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Speaker 2: And so I argue in the book that being a

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Speaker 2: member of what I call a lamenting community is key

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Speaker 2: to genuine growth and gratitude to God. And therefore we

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Speaker 2: need both for our own growth and gratitude, but also

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Speaker 2: for helping others. We need to be one of the

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Speaker 2: people willing to bring our pain to the community. And

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Speaker 2: I tell some stories about my church which I think

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Speaker 2: is a place that tries to do that, and it's

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Speaker 2: a place that has helped me in my growth and

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Speaker 2: gratitude to God, in learning how to stay present and

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Speaker 2: connected to God through suffering, which is the hardest thing,

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Speaker 2: just to stay connect did that's what Lament helps us do.

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Speaker 2: So I hope, I hope that those who read the

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Speaker 2: book will find that my assessment of how difficult it

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Speaker 2: is to practice gratitude through suffering is really honest, and

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Speaker 2: I don't think I pull many punches, and therefore I

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Speaker 2: hope that my suggestions are believable because they come from

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Speaker 2: a place of personal experience.

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Speaker 1: Well that's how it felt for me when I was

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Speaker 1: reading it, because even in my book that I recently

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Speaker 1: came out with that also talks about hope and redemption

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Speaker 1: and all those things, I write about that as well,

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Speaker 1: Like I really, I really clicked with you on that

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Speaker 1: of just the song of lament, because so many of

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Speaker 1: us just attribute songs of praise to God like that

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Speaker 1: is the only song we can sing to Him, that

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Speaker 1: is the only way to worship, to connect. But so often,

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Speaker 1: first of all, there's a book called Lamentations in the Bible.

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Speaker 1: But second of all, there's a huge majority of the

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Speaker 1: psalms where there is lament, and it's it's real people

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Speaker 1: who are grieving, David primarily who's grieving and who is

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Speaker 1: asking these hard questions and who's going through real stuff

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Speaker 1: like I had. I was on a podcast the other

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Speaker 1: day talking about how this man had an army chasing him.

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Speaker 1: I'm like he had reason to lament. Like I'd probably

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Speaker 1: be crying too, if the entire army of America was

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Speaker 1: after me, you know. And it's one of those things

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Speaker 1: where it's like it the pain was not discredited, and

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Speaker 1: it wasn't hidden from God, and it was brought to God.

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Speaker 1: And so many of us might feel dishonest in our

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Speaker 1: faith because we have not allowed ourselves to come to

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Speaker 1: God holy and not holy with an ah, but with

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Speaker 1: a w holy and fully to God, with those honest

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Speaker 1: heart cries. But something that I've noticed when it comes

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Speaker 1: to lament in the Bible is though there is this

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Speaker 1: outpouring and this questioning and this this this just pouring

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Speaker 1: out really of authentic experience and emotion, there are these

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Speaker 1: there are these moments, especially at the end, where there

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Speaker 1: is this this drawing back to the truth, not of

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Speaker 1: just the circumstance, because that's the reality of what they're

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Speaker 1: going through that informs all these heart cries. But they

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Speaker 1: return to this point of God's character, that it's not

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Speaker 1: just in the circumstance. But I'm returning to this point

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Speaker 1: of God's character of being faithful, of being kind, of

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Speaker 1: being merciful, of being just, of being compassionate in spite

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Speaker 1: despite all of these things happening. And I find that

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Speaker 1: interesting that lament often ends in this place, not with

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Speaker 1: a destruction of faith or a complete deconstructing and unraveling

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Speaker 1: into doubt and peril and completely turning away from God,

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Speaker 1: but arriving at this place where there is certainty in

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Speaker 1: who God is and only what God can do in

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Speaker 1: those places. And as someone who also has a chronic illness,

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Speaker 1: I've had chronic migraines for ten years, I'm not just

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Speaker 1: even saying this from a place of Yeah, I've gone

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Speaker 1: through hard things and then I got out of them

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Speaker 1: and life is good. But to be in that place

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Speaker 1: of consistent endurance, where I'm physically trapped in this vessel

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Speaker 1: where there is pain, I get what it looks like

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Speaker 1: to lament and to grieve and to not know what

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Speaker 1: to do. My doctors don't know what to do. But

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Speaker 1: I believe in the God who knows how to work

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Speaker 1: these things out. And I have gratitude even just in

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Speaker 1: that alone, the relationship I get to have with this

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Speaker 1: God alone, even if he doesn't work it out what

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Speaker 1: I would consider favorably to me. But then I look

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Speaker 1: at Paul. Sorry I'm rambling, But then I look at

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Speaker 1: Paul and the thorn in his flesh, and that was

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Speaker 1: still a moment for him to express this unheard of

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Speaker 1: gratitude of grace and seeing what God is doing in

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Speaker 1: this point of suffering. And I don't know, I'd like

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Speaker 1: to even as we begin to like wrap up and

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Speaker 1: get towards the end of our discussion, how how has

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Speaker 1: lament and suffering and all of these things, and even

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Speaker 1: in your studies and personal experience, how has it helped

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Speaker 1: you to find footing and foundation and confidence in God

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day. Because this is a

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Speaker 1: gratitude to God at the end of the day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. A couple of comments come to mind as I

437
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Speaker 2: listen to you talk. One is you're right that I

438
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 2: think we it depends on you know, how you were,

439
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 2: how you raised, what your experiences with the church has

440
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 2: been But I'll speak for myself. I know that I

441
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: sometimes have felt like it's a mark of failure to

442
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: bring a complaint to God. And I should have known better, because,

443
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 2: as you said, there's the book of limitations or a book

444
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 2: of psalms, and even just think about it like this,

445
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 2: I ask when I'm talking to folks about this, I say, well,

446
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 2: you're a parent. If you're a parent, ask yourself, would

447
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 2: you want to tell your child express gratitude to me

448
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,160
Speaker 2: only whenever you feel upset with me, whenever you feel

449
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: disappointed at me. Don't utter a word of that. No

450
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,959
Speaker 2: loving parent would want that, because what we really know

451
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 2: from experience is that a person who is not allowed

452
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: to give vent to their anger, their suffering, and their

453
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: resentment will will also lose the capacity for genuine gratitude.

454
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 2: These two things run in tandem, so it's not like

455
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 2: lament or expressions of anger are at cross purposes to gratitude.

456
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 2: They're actually part of the process of growing in relational

457
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 2: honesty with God. The second thing I would say is,

458
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 2: you men that very often lament psalms of lament return

459
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: to expressions of praise and thanksgiving to God. It's not

460
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 2: just very often. They always do. That is that is

461
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 2: part of the biblical formula. And it's the key difference

462
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 2: between a sort of lament shaped complaint on the one hand,

463
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: and the kind of complaint that like Job's wife tried

464
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 2: to get him to do right. They both I mean,

465
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 2: to her credit, Job's wife wanted her to be honest

466
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: with God. That's good, but she wanted him to be

467
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 2: honest with God in a way that actually severed relationship

468
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: with God. And that's always the danger. And so the

469
00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: psalms of lament train us to give full expression to

470
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: our frustration or sadness, our grief, but then to return

471
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 2: to what we might call a rehearsal of the memory

472
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 2: of God's goodness. And all of us, all of us

473
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: who are who are Jesus followers, do have a memory

474
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: of God's goodness. We know there have been times when

475
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: God has been deeply and profoundly faithful to us. The

476
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 2: practice of lament is about the discipline, even in times

477
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 2: of suffering, anger, resentment, disappointment with God, the discipline of

478
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: rehearsing God's benefits and expressing thanksgiving for them. And there's

479
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: something about placing our suffering in that wider context, in

480
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 2: a disciplined, consistent way that produces fruit of ever greater

481
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 2: gratitude and of endurance. I love that you said that

482
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 2: word endurance, because it's not like every season of the

483
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: Christian life is characterized by glee. Yes, oftentimes endurance is

484
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: all we can do, but gratitude is part of the

485
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 2: strategy of endurance for Christians. HM.

486
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: It's like one of those those lifelines that we get

487
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: to hold on to that really carries us through with hope,

488
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: hope and who God is and in the truth that

489
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: He is a redeemer who can work all things for good,

490
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: maybe not in the way we expect or in the

491
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: timeline we had hope, maybe not even in this life,

492
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: but knowing even just with the culmination of revelation, that

493
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: He will wipe away every tear, that there will be

494
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: a time for wholeness and singing and joy. It's like

495
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: these are the things that we get told on to

496
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 1: hope and have gratitude and express today, knowing this is

497
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,239
Speaker 1: our inheritance, whether we get part of it now or

498
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: or all of it later. And so I think the

499
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: more and more that we spend time expressing gratitude to God,

500
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 1: abiding with God fully in the lament and in the rejoicing,

501
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: and we're honest in that approach, and we actually spend

502
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: time staying tethered and connected to Him, even when it's

503
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: hard or it doesn't make sense or you feel like

504
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: you're kind of out a riff or at odds with

505
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: Him because of what's going on. It will lead to

506
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: it will lead to such a deep intimacy of knowing Him.

507
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: And that's the greatest gift that we can have gratitude for.

508
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: It's not just gratitude to God, but gratitude for God

509
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: at the end of the day. And that's what I've

510
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: even learned in my own suffering. Is Wow, I wish

511
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: I had every circumstance worked out for me and received

512
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: every gift and got a yes and amen to every prayer.

513
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: But even greater than that is the one who is,

514
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:16,600
Speaker 1: the one who is to come, the one who has

515
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: always been Jesus. And for that we can also have

516
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,239
Speaker 1: a greater expression of gratitude the presence the person of

517
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: God in our life. And I just love your book

518
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: and I'm so excited for people to get their hands

519
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: on it. By the time this episode is up, it

520
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: will be available. I'm assuming everywhere books are sold where

521
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: people can get it. So can you can you let

522
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: us know a little bit about that, about where we

523
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: can get the book, and if you have anything else

524
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: that you're putting out or promoting or doing, or how

525
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: you want people to stay connected with you, I'd love

526
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: for you to just share all that so that people

527
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 1: can get the book and stay connected.

528
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: Sure. So, yes, I'm pretty sure the book. I know

529
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 2: it's available on Amazon, and I'm sure you can get

530
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 2: it through Barnes and Noble or any other bookstore. And

531
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,120
Speaker 2: I do hope that you know, if you've been listening

532
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: to the conversation and you know that gratitude is a

533
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: personal struggle, I hope you'll find the book. It ends

534
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: with some really practical stuff talking about the practice of

535
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: gratitude journaling the ways that you can tailor that practice

536
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 2: to address your own particular personal struggles with gratitude to God.

537
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 2: So the book, there are places in the book that

538
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: are pretty deeply theological and even philosophical. There's some challenges

539
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: in the book, but I hope that the book will

540
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: be practically helpful to people. As far as other things,

541
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 2: I'm not very good at self promotion. I don't have

542
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: any social media or anything like that, so I guess

543
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,479
Speaker 2: all I can say is, if this sounds interesting to you,

544
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: I hope you'll buy the book, and if you want

545
00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: to write me about it, you're always welcome to send

546
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 2: me an email. You can find me on the BIOLA website.

547
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 1: Amazing. That's awesome. Well, I hope y'all do get the book,

548
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: because it really is wonderful. It's I think it's super timely,

549
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 1: not just for me, but even in the season of

550
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: life that I am in with with my book having

551
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: come out a couple months ago, with podcast themes that

552
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 1: we've been talking about. I'm just I'm just seeing God

553
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: move in so many ways in this specific conversation. So

554
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: if you want to be I don't know, refined in

555
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: this area, grow in this area, even challenge and grow

556
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 1: in the areas of the way of approaching it theologically philosophically.

557
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 1: I love that kind of stuff, Like I'm a nerd

558
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: at heart. I got my two degrees around here somewhere,

559
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: So hopefully everyone who's listening if you want to grow

560
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: in those ways too, definitely check out his book again.

561
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: It is called gratitude to God, the heart of Christian

562
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: Formation available everywhere. But thank you Kent for taking time

563
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: to be on here and talk to everyone about your

564
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 1: book today, And to everyone who listened, thank you for

565
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: tuning in and giving us your time. I love you, guys.

566
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for you, guys. I'm grateful to the Lord

567
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: that he's using spaces and places and conversations like this

568
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: to minister to you who are listening. But until next time,

569
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: I love you and I'll see you on next week's episode. Hi. Everyone.

570
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: For more life giving, faith based podcast just like this one,

571
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: check out lifeaudio dot Com, a proud partner of the

572
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: Botan Beloved podcast