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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: The thing I just asked, God, please don't ever make

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Speaker 2: me bury a friend. And I've had to bury a friend.

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Speaker 2: I've had to very a few. Ninety five plus percent

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Speaker 2: of my job is probably just this, sitting in a

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Speaker 2: car talking with a cop. It's funny because an hour

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Speaker 2: or two and they go, now, this stays in the car, right,

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Speaker 2: And I remind him, yes, this stays in the car.

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Speaker 2: As long as you're not kicking babies beating up grandma's

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Speaker 2: we're good to go. You know, I can't carry their birth.

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Speaker 2: I can walk with them, but I can't carry it

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Speaker 2: if I push Jesus on you fifteen years ago, would

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Speaker 2: you and I be here today having lunch and having

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Speaker 2: this conversation immediately?

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Speaker 1: Nope, Hello and welcome to the March or Dive Show today.

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Speaker 1: Glad to have you joining us. This is the show

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Speaker 1: where we do our best. That's all I can promise

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Speaker 1: is that we'll do our best every single episode to

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Speaker 1: give you both the principles and perspectives you need to

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Speaker 1: march when it would be easier to stay where you

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Speaker 1: are and die. My name is Jeremy Stalnaker. I am

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Speaker 1: your host today and really glad to have you joining,

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Speaker 1: and today my guest is Chuck Price. We're going to

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Speaker 1: really hear his story but talk about the work that

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Speaker 1: he's doing now. Chuck is a police chaplain, among other things,

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Speaker 1: the executive director of Wixom Ministries, which we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: as well, and it is his story is the story

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Speaker 1: of a life of service, and specifically service to the

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Speaker 1: men and women who serve us and you know, Mighty

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Speaker 1: Oaks for those that listen to our podcast for Mighty Oaks,

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Speaker 1: that is what we're about. We're about serving our veterans,

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Speaker 1: service members, and first responders. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I noticed Chuck on your website was Wickam is

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Speaker 1: a ministry of presents, and so many people just don't

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Speaker 1: understand that sometimes the most important thing you can do

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Speaker 1: is be present, be willing to wade into those moments

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Speaker 1: where folks are dealing with some of the worst things

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Speaker 1: that they've ever dealt with in their lives and just

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Speaker 1: being there, and man, what a huge difference that makes

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Speaker 1: in lives. We're gonna talk about that, but first of all,

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Speaker 1: just thank you for joining me. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me. It's an honor to

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Speaker 2: be here.

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Speaker 1: Yes, sir. A mutual friend of ours, Joel connected us,

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Speaker 1: and Joel has connected me to a number of guests

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Speaker 1: and everyone's been great. So if he says you need

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Speaker 1: to have them on your show, every time, I say yes,

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Speaker 1: and then we do it. So I'm excited about this.

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Speaker 2: I wish you would have set the bar a little

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Speaker 2: bit lower, though. That's all right.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, Well let's start, and I want to get

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Speaker 1: to what you're doing now, and you know all it's

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Speaker 1: involved in that, of course, but let's start with with

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Speaker 1: your personal faith journey. No one shows up and becomes

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Speaker 1: a chaplain. You had a road, a path to get there.

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Speaker 1: Talk about that a little bit if you would, please.

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Speaker 2: Do you want me to just start with the with

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Speaker 2: the chaplain part of it, or go back?

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Speaker 1: Or go back talk about your own faith journey when

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Speaker 1: you came to Christ and when that became really important

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Speaker 1: to you.

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Speaker 2: I guess yeah, Well it started as a kid. We

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Speaker 2: attended a little Southern Baptist church in Tucson, Arizon, a

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Speaker 2: boulevard Baptist and very close knit church family. My dad

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Speaker 2: died when I was eight and I had not accepted Christ.

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Speaker 2: I understood the foundation, the tenets of it, like I said,

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Speaker 2: good youth program, everything. But when my mom got remarried

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Speaker 2: we moved to Phoenix, I just kind of walked away

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Speaker 2: from it. Never disbelieve God, but at the same time

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Speaker 2: wasn't following him at all. So I went pretty much

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Speaker 2: from the time I was eight and eight nine, when

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Speaker 2: we moved to Phoenix till twenty two. You'd probably designate

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Speaker 2: me as agnostic. Understanding there's a God, but yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: he's out there somewhere doing something, and I'm condensing quite

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Speaker 2: a bit. But became a Christian at twenty two talking

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Speaker 2: to a friend and that, you know, just comparing. You know,

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Speaker 2: it was a comparison thing. There's something different about that

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Speaker 2: friend and both high achievers in high school, and went

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Speaker 2: through all of our accolades and check check check check,

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Speaker 2: and then I said, well, the only difference is Jesus

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Speaker 2: in their life. And I'd been to church with them,

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Speaker 2: and I honestly silently just walked talking to him excepting Christ.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't at a church, it wasn't coming forward, it

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Speaker 2: wasn't at a youth rally. It was just an understanding. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's that's what it is. But yes, I accept you

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Speaker 2: for who you are, the basic you know, basic prayer

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Speaker 2: that we do and the acceptance of Jesus the Lord

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Speaker 2: and Savior. Woke up the next morning going shoot, what

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Speaker 2: did I just do and not knowing and kind of

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Speaker 2: fumbling my way through my early walk reading Tony Campolo

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Speaker 2: and Josh McDowell. That was really those apologetic books were

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Speaker 2: really my foundation of faith. Had some good friends that

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Speaker 2: kind of walked me through the basics of prayer study,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I said, no true discipleship. I'm a

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Speaker 2: good gleaner. I kind of see people and look at

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Speaker 2: the qualities and try to emulate those qualities. So twenty

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Speaker 2: two I became a Christian fast forward, had gotten married,

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Speaker 2: met my wonderful wife, got married, and was looking for

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Speaker 2: some challenges in my life. About a year into our marriage,

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Speaker 2: so I went to a pastor that I didn't know

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Speaker 2: real well and he said, I said, I want to

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Speaker 2: be challenged were personal marriage, you know, just everything. I

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Speaker 2: want to be better. And he said, have you ever

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Speaker 2: considered full time? Ministrator said that's cute, thank you, know,

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Speaker 2: which I'd been saying for years. Even before I was

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Speaker 2: a Christian, I was offered Christian opportunities which kind of

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Speaker 2: blew me away. I said, you all don't know what

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Speaker 2: you don't know? And so he said, why don't you

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Speaker 2: pray about it? And I knew that was not I

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Speaker 2: thought was not going to go well for me, because

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Speaker 2: meaning I didn't want to go into ministry, and I

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Speaker 2: knew that was that I was going to go in

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Speaker 2: the ministry.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so very modly. Well, yeah, and.

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Speaker 2: I'm not a police type person. I don't say God,

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Speaker 2: if you do this, I'll do this, or if you

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Speaker 2: show me this. I'm not that kind of person normally. Well,

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Speaker 2: this time I did because I needed I needed to know,

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Speaker 2: I needed to I needed to clear it wasn't clear

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Speaker 2: to me. So, Sir, I was working at General Dynamics

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Speaker 2: at the Time Space System's division and doing really well there,

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Speaker 2: and you know, prayed some very specific things there, prayed

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Speaker 2: some very specific things at the church that had to

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Speaker 2: come through that they hadn't done before. And all that happened.

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Speaker 2: It was just this convergence of God saying sure, yep, okay, yep,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going dang it, dang it, dang it every

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Speaker 2: every step of the way. So people say, how did

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Speaker 2: you get Yeah, people say, how'd you come into ministry,

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Speaker 2: I said, there's claw marks all the way in. Because

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Speaker 2: I was not that guy that fell called the ministry.

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Speaker 2: I felt super, super comfortable being a Christian in the

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Speaker 2: secular world. That didn't bother me. The peer pressure didn't

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Speaker 2: bother me. So I come into ministry and I don't

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Speaker 2: know what I'm doing. I really don't, and grew into

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Speaker 2: it and did find About eleven years into full time

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Speaker 2: church ministry, I saw a buddy of mine that had

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Speaker 2: a chaplain jacket on walking across our campus. He was

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Speaker 2: there for some kind of training. Asked him where he

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Speaker 2: stole it, and he said, he's a police chaplain and

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Speaker 2: they're looking for more chaplains. Would you like to do

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Speaker 2: I said sure, again, not having any clue, went through

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Speaker 2: a process, was selected, and I've got some funny stories

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Speaker 2: about my first few lineups, but I had again no

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Speaker 2: clue what I was doing. They did not require any

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Speaker 2: training at that time. That was twenty four and a

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Speaker 2: half years ago. So yeah, I came in blind, just

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Speaker 2: you know, fatdomb and happy and saying sure, you know

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Speaker 2: whatever you need exactly, yeah, exactly. And there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of details all along the way, but that gives you

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Speaker 2: the short and dirty of how I got to where

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Speaker 2: I am.

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Speaker 1: How did your How did your family respond to you

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Speaker 1: going into ministry or making that decision, because I would

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Speaker 1: assume if they took you to I'm assuming if they

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Speaker 1: took you to church as a kid and they kind

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Speaker 1: of raised you around that that was what they wanted

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Speaker 1: for you, and then you drifted from it and then

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Speaker 1: found yourself in ministry. What was that like for your mom,

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Speaker 1: your family, my.

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Speaker 2: Mom, my wife. Everybody was supportive. Everybody was excited about it.

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Speaker 2: I may have been the least excited because, you know,

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Speaker 2: I just had a I had a thought, uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: a paradigm of what I thought that was right. And

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Speaker 2: it wasn't. Like I said, it wasn't super appealing to me.

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Speaker 2: I like being in the mix. I like being in

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Speaker 2: the mix of the world. I didn't want to be

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Speaker 2: segregated from that. But again, God has a better plan

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Speaker 2: and knows what I need. But everybody around me was

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Speaker 2: very supportive.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good. Did you go to seminary, did you

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Speaker 1: go to Bible School? Did you get training when you

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Speaker 1: made that decision or did you show up with your

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Speaker 1: briefcase and I'm ready I'm ready to work.

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Speaker 2: Kind of both and I was. I mean I was.

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Speaker 2: I was given My boss at the time said okay,

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Speaker 2: you're going to run. It was. I was a graduate intern,

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Speaker 2: the first graduate intern that our church had for our

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Speaker 2: college ministry. And they made another female a graduate intern

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Speaker 2: same time. So we were the first two graduate interns,

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Speaker 2: which involved three quarter time work, salary benefits, and seminary.

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Speaker 2: And so you ask did I Yes, I did go

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Speaker 2: to school, went to seminary and got my master's. But

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Speaker 2: simultaneously I was given responsibilities of ministry. And I've even

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Speaker 2: gone back to the lead pastor and said, why did

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Speaker 2: you hire me? I had no I had no experience.

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Speaker 2: I don't know why you know. And he's a good

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Speaker 2: friend of mine. But they saw something in me definitely

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Speaker 2: that I didn't.

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Speaker 1: That's good. It's interesting hearing your story. I grew up

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Speaker 1: in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor. I

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Speaker 1: became a Christian when I was pretty young with my

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Speaker 1: faith in Christ and never walked away from that. I

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Speaker 1: definitely didn't get to the place where I'd say I

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Speaker 1: was agnostic. I was a Christian, but I went into

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Speaker 1: the Marine Corps. I was happy being a Christian in

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Speaker 1: the Marine Corps. Faith was important to me, but not

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Speaker 1: the most important thing to me. It was just kind

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Speaker 1: of one of those things that was in the background.

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Speaker 1: And I always said, the last thing I want to

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Speaker 1: do is go into ministry. And man, God gets older,

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Speaker 1: you've been to our church. So I was attending Coastline

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Speaker 1: when I was in the Marine Corps, close to Camp Pendleton.

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Speaker 1: So I was attending there with my family, and my

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Speaker 1: pastor said, Hey, if you ever get out of the

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Speaker 1: Marine Corps, I've got a job for you here. And man,

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Speaker 1: I just showed up. I didn't have I had college,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't have Bible college. I didn't have any

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Speaker 1: seminary training. And I've said many many times, I've been

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Speaker 1: in combat and I've been in ministry, and ministry is

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Speaker 1: much more difficult than combat. You can't tell who's shooting

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Speaker 1: at you, you don't know what's going on. It's a

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Speaker 1: very confusing environment. And for me it was certainly coming

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Speaker 1: out of the military. Was that What was that adjustment

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Speaker 1: like for you, going from you know, a professional job

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Speaker 1: working in a large company to just doing the stuff

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Speaker 1: you have to do in church.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Fortunately I had, you know, I had the context

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Speaker 2: of college ministry, which is a very messy ministry, right,

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Speaker 2: It's I call it the second puberty of life. You know,

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Speaker 2: young eighteen to twenty two, twenty three year olds are

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Speaker 2: figuring out responsibility, their spirituality, their bodies, their minds, they're

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Speaker 2: they're figuring out all their independence. So it's a super

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Speaker 2: messy ministry. And in that sense that kept me a

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Speaker 2: little bit in the mix of just okay, this isn't

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Speaker 2: just straightforward, we're just going to sit here on our hands,

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Speaker 2: very interactive. But I all I had was a business model.

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Speaker 2: My undergrad was business. I had been in business, so

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Speaker 2: that's I kind of had. I kind of ran it

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Speaker 2: like that. When I taught, I used acronyms because I

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Speaker 2: came from general dynamics, you know, acronyms being in the military.

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Speaker 2: That's all I had. That's the only way I could

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Speaker 2: remember things. So I just made up my own and again,

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Speaker 2: I I probably knew less than the students I was teaching.

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Speaker 2: That's what I That's the way it felt at least.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I enjoyed the fact that I didn't have that.

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Speaker 2: I had a ministry of people that would ask hard questions.

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Speaker 2: They would ask real life questions. They wanted to figure

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Speaker 2: things out. They were told certain things when they were

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Speaker 2: in their youth groups or when they were at their

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Speaker 2: churches of origin, and and some of it was not biblical.

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Speaker 2: And I and I didn't. I didn't say, I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to cast a you know, some kind of a dispersion,

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Speaker 2: or I'm not going to I'm not going to criticize

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Speaker 2: your church of origin. But I said, that single thing

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Speaker 2: that that person told you is not biblic And you

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Speaker 2: could just see the way come off of some of

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Speaker 2: these students. So we just had honest conversations. In that sense.

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Speaker 2: It was a lot like working in General Dynamics, where

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't evangelize or proselytize, say overtly there you know,

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Speaker 2: you need Jesus. You hear that. We could have honest

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Speaker 2: conversations because that was their turf, you know, at say

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Speaker 2: General Dynamics, and even though it's our church turf. I

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Speaker 2: gave them a safe place to just be themselves, bring

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Speaker 2: their their messiness, their their shortcomings and all that, and

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Speaker 2: just be who they are and grow in Christ, you know,

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Speaker 2: to show them, hey, this is this is kind of

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Speaker 2: what life is. You're going to have these ups and downs,

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Speaker 2: but you need to have a safe place that says

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Speaker 2: when you're down, you're not out, because that's what the

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Speaker 2: evil one lies to us and tells us.

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Speaker 1: So this is maybe a little bit off topic, but

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Speaker 1: hearing you talk about that. In that process with with

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Speaker 1: young adults second puberty, we're told that young adults are

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Speaker 1: leaving the church and record there may have been some

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Speaker 1: correction in the last couple of years. You know, statistics,

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Speaker 1: you can do anything that you want to with them,

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Speaker 1: but the numbers, certainly of young people in most churches

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Speaker 1: in America has declined. The gap between coming up through

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Speaker 1: a youth group and finding yourself in you know, quote

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Speaker 1: unquote big church, right, something happens between the two. You've

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Speaker 1: watched this for a long time, you're very involved in it.

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Speaker 1: What have we done wrong? What could we do different

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Speaker 1: to keep young people engaged in church through that second process?

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Speaker 1: I have, you know, young adult kids where they're leaving

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Speaker 1: the youth group, they're out on their own, they're trying

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Speaker 1: to figure things out. It's a brand new world. I

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Speaker 1: don't think we take it seriously all of the time.

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Speaker 1: What can we do different to keep them engaged?

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Speaker 2: Well, I can just tell you my experience. And I've

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Speaker 2: been out of full time church ministry since two thousand

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Speaker 2: and six, so I just understand that I always want

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Speaker 2: to because there's probably many things that have been going on

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Speaker 2: since then. But I see some of the same patterns

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Speaker 2: in the church.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: We tend to put our emphasis and the children cradle

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Speaker 2: to twelfth grade. Our youth groups sometimes are fantastic, right.

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Speaker 2: I mean that even when I was a pastor to

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Speaker 2: college students there, Man, my youth group was awesome. My

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Speaker 2: middle school pastor, you know, my small group's leader, she

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Speaker 2: was amazing, you know that kind of thing. Then what

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Speaker 2: now that now the church is focused on that thirty

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Speaker 2: five to fifty five year old. So you go from

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Speaker 2: eighteen vibrant, dynamic, relevant everything. Now they want you to

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Speaker 2: fit into the mainstream of the church. What makes them

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Speaker 2: the money and so our church, for gosh, I can't

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Speaker 2: remember how many decades saw the value. It was a

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Speaker 2: mission It was missional before missional became a thing, because

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Speaker 2: the college ministry is a mission field. We were right

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Speaker 2: by San Diego State University and at the time, I

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Speaker 2: think it was thirty five thousand students, the largest state

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Speaker 2: cal state school in that system. There was a church

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Speaker 2: right across the street. When I see right across the street,

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Speaker 2: literally right across the street that did not have a

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Speaker 2: college ministry or presence on the campus. To me, they

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Speaker 2: would sell them. They would sell them parking spots, and

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Speaker 2: they would line up on a day when it was

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Speaker 2: one hundred degrees outside to buy parking passes so they

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Speaker 2: could park across the street from the school cheaper than

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Speaker 2: the school parking with no water, no food, no it

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Speaker 2: b literally did nothing. Just down the street was us,

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Speaker 2: and we said, hey, come on in. We've got a

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Speaker 2: critical mass of college students. And our church funded it,

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Speaker 2: funded it very generously. I had a at my peak,

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Speaker 2: it was me as a full time pastor. I had

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Speaker 2: a graduate intern. I had two paid student internsmistrator, and

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Speaker 2: then I had a ton of volunteer student leaders. I

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Speaker 2: didn't use as many adult leaders as maybe people would

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Speaker 2: think I use a lot of student leaders. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: we were running and gunning, and like I said, our

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Speaker 2: church supported that. But that you have to have that mindset.

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Speaker 2: Just like you're going to send money over to Africa

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Speaker 2: or to Asia or whatever, you're not going to get

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Speaker 2: quote a return on your investment monetarily. But if we're

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Speaker 2: investing in the kingdom, isn't that what this is about.

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Speaker 2: I'm not investing in this piece of real estate. I'm

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Speaker 2: investing in God's kingdom. And that's only what I felt

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Speaker 2: I had the privilege of doing, was that transition. But

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Speaker 2: I would tell my students, hey, when you leave this ministry, now,

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Speaker 2: you came from a dynamic ministry hopefully, or maybe you didn't.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you came from a very stoic ministry and you

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Speaker 2: were looking for something like this with people that looked

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Speaker 2: and sounded like you, with relevant teaching. I said, you're

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Speaker 2: going to get out there. You may not find something

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Speaker 2: like this out there. Not that we were doing it perfect.

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Speaker 2: We also had a contemporary worship service at our church

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Speaker 2: that tended to blend. And I said, but you may

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Speaker 2: go to X city, X state, X school, and or

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Speaker 2: X job when it takes you there and struggle to

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Speaker 2: find it. So is your personal faith strong enough to

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Speaker 2: withstand that because you may go into a little bit

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Speaker 2: of a desert. You may not, you know you may,

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Speaker 2: and I'll help you find you know, to the extent

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Speaker 2: that I can. I'll help you find something that might

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Speaker 2: be somewhat similar irrelevant, but that's I think the church

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Speaker 2: has always talked about that eighteen to thirty or eighteen

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Speaker 2: to thirty five gap where they leave the church, and

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Speaker 2: yet the church is not is not worsting it, put

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Speaker 2: their money where their mouth is. They've just lamented over it.

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Speaker 1: That's in a lot of ways. That's you know, where

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Speaker 1: our church is in a military community and churches that

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Speaker 1: have strong military ministries, it's the same model. It's understanding

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Speaker 1: we need to be willing to invest in these people

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Speaker 1: that are in our community with no real expectation of

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Speaker 1: monetary return, knowing that we're sending them back to somewhere,

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Speaker 1: but then intentionally equipping them to you know, go back

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Speaker 1: home or to wherever they're sent and communicate the gospel.

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Speaker 1: You you allude to discipleship. You mentioned there wasn't much

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Speaker 1: discipleship early in your journey, your faith journey. When did

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Speaker 1: that become important to you? And how do you view

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Speaker 1: discipleship when you're looking at young believers or new believers

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Speaker 1: people like that that you're getting ready to send out

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Speaker 1: send out into the world, and you know, just knowing

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Speaker 1: the world that you're coming from now as a chaplain

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Speaker 1: you're working with people probably across the faith spectrum, trying

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Speaker 1: to disciple, trying to equip. How do you think about

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Speaker 1: those things?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was when when I first got into ministry,

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Speaker 2: and maybe even before that, maybe when I first moved

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Speaker 2: to San Diego. Discipleship was a pretty big deal at

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Speaker 2: our church, and I really appreciated that part of it.

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Speaker 2: What I didn't like about it is, again, there was

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Speaker 2: a generation gap, and so the younger people wanted the

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Speaker 2: relationship the older people. It was based on kind of curriculum.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not criticizing. They were wonderful people and we

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Speaker 2: loved gleaning off of them. But one of the best

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Speaker 2: stories I heard was this guy that was in my ministry.

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Speaker 2: He was one of my student leaders, and there was

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Speaker 2: a guy that he adored in our church. And that

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Speaker 2: guy was around seventy at the time, and I mean,

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Speaker 2: just a good friend of mine, godly man. And I

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Speaker 2: remember the young guy saying to the older guy, and

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Speaker 2: they both told me the story and it was exact same.

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Speaker 2: He said, and I won't use his name, he said, Hey,

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Speaker 2: I want to hang out with you. I want to

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Speaker 2: He goes, I don't want to hang out with you,

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Speaker 2: and he wasn't being me and he was just like, dude,

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Speaker 2: I could be your grandfather. Yeah, the young guy though.

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Speaker 2: And it's a bummer because this guy was probably one

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Speaker 2: of our better disciples lures of curriculum, right and and

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Speaker 2: and an easy guy to talk to, but didn't mesh

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Speaker 2: the two and So I've seen some discipleship programs become

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Speaker 2: just that, a program based on curriculum and getting through

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Speaker 2: this stage too. Now you're in two oh one, now

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Speaker 2: you're in three oh one, now you're in four to one,

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Speaker 2: and it's all about achieving the four o one, so

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Speaker 2: you can kind of walk around a little a little taller,

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Speaker 2: right versus h. I think it gets back to that

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Speaker 2: ministry of presence. Are you present? Are you available? Are

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Speaker 2: you talking about life on life? Yeah, the curriculum is important.

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Speaker 2: We want to we want to point them towards Christ

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Speaker 2: and the truth of the Bible period. But if I

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Speaker 2: point them to the truth of the Bible yet, we

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Speaker 2: can't talk about your girlfriend broke up with you this week.

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Speaker 2: Let's put the lesson aside and just talk about that.

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Speaker 2: That sucks. What what do you need today? And I'm

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Speaker 2: going to bring in biblical truth hopefully I mean, that's

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Speaker 2: hopefully what I'm doing, you know, because to me, discipleship

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Speaker 2: is a very churchy word for what I believe should

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Speaker 2: be coaching, mentoring. I'm I love coaching him mentoring. I've

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Speaker 2: never I've never really been an athletic coach for any

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Speaker 2: any length of time or duration or you know, but

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Speaker 2: that life coaching that you know, And and I'm gonna.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna, whether you're a Christian or not, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to pepper our conversation with biblical truth, whether it's in

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Speaker 2: normal conversation, you know, like Jesus would talk in story,

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Speaker 2: or if I'm going to quote scripture, you know, chapter

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Speaker 2: and verse. And I've done both with Christians and non Christians.

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Speaker 2: But I want to just I don't want them to

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Speaker 2: think I'm this smart dude. I just want to keep

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Speaker 2: pushing them towards Well, this is how I learned it

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Speaker 2: over here, but this is how I applied this truth

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Speaker 2: that seemed a little random, but oh wow, I found

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Speaker 2: truth and the and the way I could apply it here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good. I've seen, you know, disciple ers put

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Speaker 1: that in quotes in churches who love teaching, and so

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Speaker 1: they really do fall back to a curriculum I'm going

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Speaker 1: to teach you, you know, and a lot of those

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Speaker 1: curriculums are broken up by topic, theological topic, and it

430
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,880
Speaker 1: becomes almost a many Bible course within the local church,

431
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 1: which again there's nothing wrong with that, but to label

432
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 1: that discipleship I think is definitely missing the relational aspect,

433
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,719
Speaker 1: which is what most people want. Most people are missing

434
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 1: a relationship with an authentic person who can actually point

435
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:32,480
Speaker 1: them to Christ. We don't have, we don't have a

436
00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: lack of educational opportunity right now. If you want to

437
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: learn the Bible, and I think churches should push that,

438
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: have courses. But if you want to learn the Bible,

439
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,360
Speaker 1: you're a guy sitting in your basement. You don't want

440
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 1: to talk to anyone, but you want to learn the Bible.

441
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,919
Speaker 1: There are thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of

442
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: Bible education, good and bad. That you have access to

443
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,880
Speaker 1: information is not our problem. It's relationships that are authentic

444
00:23:58,920 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: and point people to Christ.

445
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and application right, how do I that's right? And

446
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 2: I was taught early on when I when we were

447
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 2: volunteers with the high school group, you know, we were

448
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: told because I didn't I was again new to the faith.

449
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 2: I think when I worked with a high school group,

450
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 2: I was only Christian four years, so I'm still learning

451
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 2: this church culture. And I remember they said, hey, take

452
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 2: them and do stuff with them, take them to wash

453
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: your car. So okay. I picked up my freshman, you know, kid,

454
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 2: and I said, hey, let's go to Tower Records. And

455
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 2: the funniest part is I go over the seventies section

456
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 2: that was my section. Comes over by me, and I'm thinking,

457
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 2: he just wants to be with the discipler. And I said, hey, man,

458
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: you can go look at your music. He goes, no,

459
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 2: I love this stuff. I go, okay, I love this kid,

460
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 2: you know. And it was just we went golfing together.

461
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 2: We both sucked at golf, and I watched him count,

462
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 2: you know, he'd got nine or ten strokes on a

463
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 2: on a hole, and I'd say, so, what did you

464
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 2: get on the last six right down to sit right?

465
00:24:57,760 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 2: So these four strokes you had right over there?

466
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 1: You know, no money has changed, so it's fine.

467
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, But what's funny is he's he's actually in law

468
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: enforcement and he's a canine with our department. So I've

469
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 2: known this kid for forty years now. I think you know,

470
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:18,440
Speaker 2: but yeah, and we still just have this great relationship.

471
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 2: But you know, I learned just by the awkward of Okay,

472
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: I'm gonna bring this kid with me. I don't know

473
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: exactly what to do, but just that again, it's kind

474
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: of that ministry of presence just showing up.

475
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 1: When did you trans transition or what caused the transition

476
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: from what we call vocational ministry working in a church

477
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: to being a chaplain full time and doing the work

478
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: that you're doing? Now?

479
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 2: How do I put this? I was the acting executive

480
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: pastor at a church that got a new senior pastor.

481
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: And if you know how corporate things happen, where the

482
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 2: CEO comes in, they normally have their COEO with the

483
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 2: engine running and the trailer loaded. That was kind of me.

484
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: I knew it was in, you know. I'd hoped that

485
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: I could stay because I enjoyed the ministry there at

486
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: the church, but I'd been out of college ministry by

487
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,920
Speaker 2: that time for four to five years. I'd been in

488
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: adult ministries for about four years and then the interim

489
00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 2: exec for about a year, and I was really worked

490
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 2: on getting the church ready for the senior pastor. When

491
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 2: when he released me, I didn't know what I was

492
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: going to do, and I, you know, did the traditional thing,

493
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 2: sent my resume out. Crickets, crickets, crickets. I couldn't get

494
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: a bite. I would even call the churches and say, hey,

495
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,120
Speaker 2: do you get my resume? Yeah, the pastor will get

496
00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:40,719
Speaker 2: back to you in a couple of weeks. Called back

497
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 2: in a couple of weeks. Hey, any any progress. You know,

498
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 2: he's been busy. I'm going, okay, I'm not new. You've

499
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: got somebody in mind, Just tell me that I'm going

500
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 2: to go.

501
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: You know.

502
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 2: All that to say is I sat down with the

503
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,000
Speaker 2: guy and I had already been doing excuse me, chaplaincy

504
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 2: five years by that time, very very part time as

505
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 2: a full time pastor. I was enjoying it. And I'm

506
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 2: sitting with some people and how's it going? And I'm

507
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 2: lamenting over not having a job, and finally talking to

508
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: this one guy over coffee and he's asked me about

509
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 2: the job search, and I'm lamenting and he says, well,

510
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 2: how's that you're still doing that chaplain that police thing.

511
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 2: I said yeah, and he says, how's that going? So

512
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 2: I told him and he sitiously he does this. He

513
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 2: says back, and he starts laughing, and I said, I

514
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 2: think I missed the joke and the punchline. I said,

515
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 2: I'm unemployed in thirty days, and he said, you don't

516
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,399
Speaker 2: get it. I said, I don't What am I not getting?

517
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 2: He said, you need to be a chaplain full time,

518
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 2: and that mean that meant going into mission work, which

519
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 2: I have been praying God, please don't make me ever

520
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 2: go on a mission work since the time I became

521
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: a Christian and understood what missionaries were. So I spoke

522
00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: to a guy who was our mission's training pastor and

523
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: he's just again one of these wise human beings. And

524
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 2: here's how he put it to me. I told him, my,

525
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: hang ups, my, You know, I don't want to raise funds.

526
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 2: I don't want to beg people for money all that stuff.

527
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 2: So he's sent back listening wise man, and he says, Chuck,

528
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: you're going to approach us one of two ways. You're

529
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 2: either going to sit out like those people that sign

530
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 2: you know, will work for food, or you know, can

531
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 2: you give me a dollar to spare? He says, You're

532
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 2: going to either going to act and beg like that,

533
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: or you're going to invite somebody you're going to invite

534
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: people to be part of your.

535
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,160
Speaker 1: Passion, right right, And it.

536
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 2: Was like being light bulb, you know, fireworks went off.

537
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: I thought I can do that. I literally had my

538
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,320
Speaker 2: first letter out the following week, and I think I'm

539
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 2: two hundred and thirty eight letters in now monthly letters

540
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: that I send to my supporters, and God's blessed me

541
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 2: being able to do this full time since January one

542
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: of two thousand and seven. Wow, So it's you know,

543
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: it'll be twenty years in about seven eight months or

544
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: six months. So I'm you know, that's yeah, that's that's

545
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 2: kind of the transition, wasn't It wasn't the way I

546
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: wanted it to happen, right, and it wasn't what I wanted

547
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: to do, But I wouldn't be anywhere else. And I'm

548
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: actually thankful for that pastor to let me go because

549
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: had he not let me go, I wouldn't be where

550
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 2: I am.

551
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: I don't think, yeah, yeah, you know, God uses it's wild,

552
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: but God uses things that we look at as this

553
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: is the worst thing that can happen to me to

554
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,000
Speaker 1: get us exactly where He wants us to be. And

555
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: the why behind that is not always clear like it

556
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: probably could have been a different path here, But it's

557
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: just being obedient and then having the right people around

558
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: you in those moments before the bottom falls out, who

559
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: can point you in the right direction. Yeah, yeah, what

560
00:29:50,760 --> 00:29:53,719
Speaker 1: so you treat you full time and that's different than

561
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 1: being a volunteer. This is what you're doing now. Can

562
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: you talk about some of the unique challenges of being

563
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: a law enforcement chaplain? Maybe the good and the bad?

564
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 1: You know, what you see, what you do. People often

565
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: look at chaplains as first of all, volunteers. They're doing

566
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 1: a pretty good thing, but nobody really knows what they do. Also,

567
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: they're kind of around when things are bad, but maybe

568
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: not otherwise. Different departments have different involvement from their chaplains

569
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 1: and those kind of things. But what does a law

570
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: enforcement chaplain do in you know, kind of the perfect world?

571
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 1: What are you doing when things aren't blowing up and

572
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: bad things aren't happening? What are some of the unique

573
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: challenges to the work that you do?

574
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you said a couple of things. You said,

575
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: all volunteer, and we are we are. We're all volunteer,

576
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: at least in San Diego County and most agencies across

577
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: the United States. There's a there's a handful here and

578
00:30:54,640 --> 00:31:00,239
Speaker 2: there of of paid positions around the country, but very

579
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: very few. So we all are vocationally. We're getting paid

580
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 2: somewhere else where, missionaries, where retirees, whatever it may be

581
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: we've got, we're getting paid because volunteers. Nobody can just

582
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: volunteer and not get paid somewhere. Right, it doesn't matter

583
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 2: who you are, so but we are all volunteers. It's

584
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 2: a little bit of a lengthy discussion. So if I

585
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 2: get off trackers.

586
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:27,479
Speaker 1: Now, just bring me to it.

587
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: So when you say the word chaplain most I think

588
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 2: even most church goers, most people of faith wouldn't understand

589
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 2: it fully. Military understands chaplaincy to some extent. Right, there's

590
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 2: you understand what it looks like in the military. But

591
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 2: those are also officers. They're the same as you. They've

592
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: gone through the same boot camps. They and then their

593
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 2: specialty is chaplaincy. From what I understand, I'm speaking about

594
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 2: ignorance because I'm not on the military, but they have

595
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 2: a specialty that they do just like I would think

596
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: somebody in artillery, just like somebody you know, that's their track.

597
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: That's what they're going to do so with law enforcement,

598
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: it is a to z. I mean, you're really going

599
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: to see a huge spectrum depending on where you go.

600
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 2: I've had the privilege of traveling cross country with we

601
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: have a memorial car that we've trailered cross country and

602
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: we've visited every state memorial, state law enforcement memorial, and

603
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: the Lower forty eight to honor their fallen and that's

604
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: between our state memorial and the national Memorial. We visit

605
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 2: states along the way, so we visited all Lower forty

606
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 2: eight in four different trips. And I only say that

607
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: to say this. I've spoken with officers, sheriffs, you know,

608
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 2: county county law enforcement, state law enforcement, state troopers all

609
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: across the United States, and I asked them a few questions,

610
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: what does wellness look like in your agency? Do you

611
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: have trained and trusted peer supporters? And the last question

612
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: I always ask them is do you have chaplains? And

613
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 2: here's what I normally get, Uh, they look up to

614
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: the right or up to the left. As soon as

615
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: you do that, I'm going to say, I just say

616
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 2: you don't and I don't mean that, you know, judgmentally,

617
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: but if you have to look up into the right

618
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: to think, do you have a chaplain then they're a

619
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: name on a piece of paper, or they have a

620
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 2: different function. So I found when I came in twenty

621
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: four and a half years ago. In my experience, chaplaincy

622
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 2: often devolves into ceremonial invocations benedictions. Right for special you

623
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: know Mary, you know, Corporal Mary Smith, gets a she's

624
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: in charge of this event. She gets a sheet of

625
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 2: paper and it says okay in voc invoc it says reverend,

626
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: I guess this is a religious thing, because they may

627
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: not be religious. So they get somebody and they often

628
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 2: transpose invocation benediction. They don't know, and we help them.

629
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: You know, okay, invocation starts benediction ins But I've been

630
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: asked many times will you do the benediction? I'm thinking

631
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 2: I'm closing. I get there and say okay, so after

632
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 2: the star spangled banner, you know, fortunately I know how

633
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 2: to pray on the fly. God is great. That has

634
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: been always works right. So, uh So it either devolves

635
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 2: into that and that's their understanding. Yeah, the chaplains show

636
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: up at special events. It is a community facing meaning.

637
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,280
Speaker 2: We call our chaplains to do death notifications in our community.

638
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: Uh it can be inward facing, but they it's a

639
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 2: chaplain that doesn't have the right attitude, didn't get in

640
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: there for the right reasons. They wanted the proxy card,

641
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: they wanted the flat badge, they wanted the ID and

642
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: they waved that in front of their congregations. And that

643
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 2: has happened. But they but they're not involved, they're not known.

644
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 2: There can be chaplains that are involved, but they're involved

645
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 2: with one person there. They want to they want to

646
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: be seen with the chief or or their friend that

647
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,360
Speaker 2: goes to their church as a captain. And that's happened.

648
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 2: And and a lot of these I've experienced per I've

649
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:06,280
Speaker 2: seen these things happen many I've heard. Our chaplain model

650
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: is ministry of presence that you as you said at

651
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 2: the top of the program, we show up, We show

652
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 2: up and we're available. We do a lot of screening

653
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 2: on the front end. And I tell people when I

654
00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,560
Speaker 2: help agencies start their programs, I say, the more work

655
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 2: you do on the front end, the less problems you

656
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,399
Speaker 2: have on the back end. It doesn't mean you won't

657
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 2: have problems here and there, but you know, if you

658
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 2: screen very heavy over here. So our model is that

659
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: we show up and we spend time in the cars

660
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: with the officers. We're inward facing. We were not called

661
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: out for the community. If so, we're inward facing. Let

662
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 2: me start there. We show up, we ride with officers.

663
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,240
Speaker 2: We require just ten hours a month. What we find

664
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 2: is if we screen for the right person, they have

665
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 2: a hard time keeping it to ten. And we say,

666
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 2: you can put in a thousand.

667
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: I don't care.

668
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: You know, as long as your families are on board

669
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: with it right in your churches, so there's no limit

670
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: to how much they can put in. We give them

671
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,239
Speaker 2: in the bigger agencies, we give them a division. We

672
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 2: say that's your that's your congregation. Basically, uh, you're you're

673
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: you're responsible but not possessive. Other chaplains may come in

674
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 2: because somebody from their division now is writing in your

675
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,040
Speaker 2: division and they've asked them to come over. While we'll

676
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: call you primarily for that division. That other chaplain may

677
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: show up if that person's involved in a critical incident

678
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,799
Speaker 2: because they called them. So we don't we don't get

679
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: hurt if another chaplain shows up. We're very tight. We

680
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: communicate very well. We were hand in hand, you know.

681
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 2: We encourage our chaplains. If you're driving by the station,

682
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 2: stop in. Uh, if you're you know, get your get

683
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 2: your ride alongs in. That's that's the bread and butter,

684
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,919
Speaker 2: because I'm one on one with the officer and that's

685
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: really where you develop the trust and credibility. So, yeah,

686
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: it's chaplaincy. I I have to explain. I have to

687
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,400
Speaker 2: stop when somebody says, oh, you're a chaplain, yes, and

688
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 2: if there if it's if I'm going to another agency

689
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 2: and try I and they want to start a chaplain program,

690
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,720
Speaker 2: I need to make sure they understand what a chaplain

691
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 2: truly is because if their version of a chaplain is

692
00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 2: a person on a piece of paper that I call

693
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 2: when things are bad. And so to get to your

694
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 2: other question of so what are you doing when you

695
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 2: know when it isn't hitting the fan? And what's the

696
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 2: best and worst? Right, it's just that it's what you

697
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 2: and I are doing right here, we're having a conversation.

698
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 2: Ninety five plus percent of my job is probably just this,

699
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 2: sitting in a car talking with a cop. And it's

700
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: funny because some of them won't barely tell you their

701
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 2: shoe size if they're not. It's different now because chaplaincy

702
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:43,759
Speaker 2: is very much accepted in our departments. But when I

703
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 2: first started, man, they were tight lipped. And then there's

704
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: others after you explain privilege to them, which is protected

705
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 2: by California Evidence Code, and every state has that type

706
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 2: of privilege, clergy penticate privilege. It's funny because an hour

707
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: or two in they go, now, this stays in the car, right,

708
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 2: And when I hear that, I know they first heard me.

709
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,720
Speaker 2: And then I crossed that first speed bump of trust,

710
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,000
Speaker 2: right and and I remind him, yes, this stays in

711
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 2: the car. As long as you're not kicking babies beating

712
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 2: up grandmas, we're good to go. You know, my two

713
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 2: mandated areas. So it's just this wonderful part of just

714
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 2: getting to know them, and that leads to maybe a

715
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 2: coffee here and there, or a call or a text

716
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: or you know, I hear that, oh, they're going to

717
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,799
Speaker 2: go for swat or something like that, so I'll find

718
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 2: out the day and try to send them a note

719
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: the day before or say, hey, man, praying for you.

720
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 2: Let me know how it goes. And it's amazing what

721
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 2: those little texts have done over the years and how

722
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 2: much they've meant to him, whether they get back to

723
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: us or not. Obviously the worst thing and the thing

724
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,880
Speaker 2: I just asked, God, please don't ever make me bury

725
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 2: a friend. And I've had to bury a friend. So

726
00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:56,760
Speaker 2: I've had to very a few and line of duty

727
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: deaths and then off duty deaths as well. And that's

728
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,439
Speaker 2: the heart. I mean, that's probably the hardest, and that's

729
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 2: that's our game time. That's when if we've done our

730
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: if we've really fulfilled our role as a chaplain and

731
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 2: that ministry of presence, those times are just incredible and

732
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: they compress time. If you're relevant in a critical incident.

733
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,840
Speaker 2: And I'm sure in your world too, in the military world,

734
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 2: if a chaplain or somebody is relevant when you know

735
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 2: in the foxhole, you know, in that crisis and that trauma, man,

736
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:31,160
Speaker 2: that that that just compresses time. What what what happened

737
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 2: in this moment, in these few moments, in these days

738
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 2: would have taken me years to achieve. You know, if

739
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,359
Speaker 2: I'm really if I'm irrelevant, it expands time. Now I've

740
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: got to dig out of a hole, right, So, like

741
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: I said, the majority of my time, even when officers

742
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 2: are going through rough times, I can't carry their burden

743
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: I can walk with them, but I can't carry it.

744
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 2: So you know, they'll ask me, they'll say, chaplain, how

745
00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: do you see the stuff we see? Smell the stuff

746
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 2: we smell? Sometimes I have the stuff splash on you

747
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 2: that gets splashed on us. Right, how do you experience

748
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 2: all the stuff we do? You know, through the windshield

749
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 2: and out in the field and then hear our crap

750
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 2: on top of that and stay okay? And I said,

751
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 2: because I don't carry your stuff, right, I did that

752
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: one point in my ministry. I think a lot of

753
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: pastors do we feel like I gotta I got to

754
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: help them change or I got to change them. I'm

755
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 2: the change agent. When you realize it's only the Holy Spirit,

756
00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 2: it takes a lot of weight off your shoulders and

757
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 2: then I can just walk with them, and I'll walk

758
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: with them however long they need.

759
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so good. Yeah, it's that relationship when things

760
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: aren't bad that allows you to do the ministry when

761
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: things are. Yeah, that's powerful. It's powerful. And the response

762
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: from from the officers, I would imagine, is good if

763
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 1: you take that approach. I feel like, you know, we

764
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: work with a lot of police officers, police departments across

765
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: the country. And to your point, the chaplain is someone

766
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,920
Speaker 1: who's listed, someone knows that it's probably important to have

767
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: one at some point, but he only shows up when

768
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: either things are bad or he's trying to do some

769
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:12,799
Speaker 1: kind of training, and there is no relationship. And so

770
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 1: those officers might as well be alone if they don't

771
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,719
Speaker 1: have a church. That chaplain's not helping them because he

772
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: didn't care before and now he shows up in a

773
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: uniform and whatever to try to tell them what to do,

774
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: but he hasn't been with him. Yes, so important.

775
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've helped some agencies get rid of chaplains

776
00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:34,720
Speaker 2: that were toxic. They came in and made things worse.

777
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 2: And again that I sometimes blamed the agencies even in

778
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,440
Speaker 2: that because if you if an a I worked with

779
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 2: one agency and I was I'd given them all the

780
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 2: guidelines and everything I've had to screen and I show

781
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 2: up and they've got like fifteen twenty people in a room,

782
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 2: which is fine. I think, okay, we're doing an orientation.

783
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: And then it was rather than screening those people and

784
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: seeing you know, having follow on like one on ones

785
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 2: or they just said okay, who wants to do this? Well,

786
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: they had a bunch of ch I mean a bunch

787
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 2: of chaplains and asked me how many they ended up with.

788
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: They end up with no chaplains and I mean zero,

789
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 2: And nobody in the agency knew them because I would

790
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 2: I would see every once in a while. It was

791
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 2: out of my area, I would see them every once

792
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: a while. Hey, how's your Chaplin program? I don't know,

793
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 2: I haven't seen anything. So yeah, sometimes we set and

794
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 2: historically we've set clergy up for failure because you said, yeah,

795
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 2: come on in, and then they begin to proseetize, evangelize,

796
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 2: and there have been lawsuits on a state level and

797
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 2: on other levels that have killed programs on that level,

798
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 2: state levels, county levels, and even municipalities because we set

799
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: that chaplain up for failure and we didn't give them guardrails.

800
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 2: So I do fault some of the agencies, But at

801
00:42:53,280 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: the same time, we carry some of that fault because

802
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 2: we should know better. We should know this is a

803
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 2: different entity, and I don't do you know, when I

804
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 2: meet with chaplain candidates. One of the things I talked

805
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: to him about is that this is not church. So

806
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 2: the skills and things that you've developed over here, and

807
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 2: I have a whole presentation that shows the difference in

808
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 2: clergy and chaplaincy. And then it goes bullet by bullet.

809
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: So you go to a house of worship, I'm going

810
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 2: to talk about my faith. I don't care if it's red, green, orange, blue,

811
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 2: and you may be a different color. You may say, hey,

812
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 2: my faith's green and yours is orange, and you come

813
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 2: in there, you should be orange, You should be orange.

814
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 2: Guess what we're going to be when you leave. We're

815
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 2: going to still be green. You'll probably leave orange if

816
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 2: you listen, maybe maybe our green will rub off on you. Right,

817
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 2: But I'm going to be unapologetically green every time you

818
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 2: come to my house of worship. When I come into

819
00:43:55,840 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: your arena, I can't do that, sure, So how do

820
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 2: I do it? It's made me, I think, in many

821
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 2: ways a better pastor because I can't default too easy

822
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: ways of you know, you walk in, I just tell

823
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 2: you about John three sixteen. How do I tell you

824
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: about John three sixteen? When I can't tell you John

825
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: three sixteen? I had to unlearn some things and learn

826
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: some really fun skills of how do I integrate truth

827
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: into regular conversation?

828
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so good?

829
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 2: And develop the trust that. Sometimes I'd say, hey, do

830
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: you mind if I you know, I believe in the Bible,

831
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 2: And I've had this conversation. I can't tell you how

832
00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: many times, you know, I believe in the Bible riding

833
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 2: with an officer because they asked me a very deep question, Yeah,

834
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 2: are you okay if I answer you from that perspective? Okay? Well,

835
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: it says in first Peter this because I want you

836
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: to understand where I get it from. And I'm pointing

837
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 2: and pointing them. Guess what if they say no, I'm

838
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 2: going to say the same thing without.

839
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: Chapter, without the reverence, and they don't know.

840
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 2: But it tells us that God's word won't return void,

841
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: and I trust that. But it's not my responsibility to

842
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 2: grow that right. I'm going to try to be there

843
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 2: to water it, to maybe do a little weeding along

844
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:14,320
Speaker 2: the way, But ultimately I can't wherever it lands, it lands,

845
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,040
Speaker 2: and if they choose to just let it sit there

846
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 2: on a rock, I can't change that. I can do

847
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: my best to be there to try to help them

848
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: see it.

849
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, you know, one of the clearest models I

850
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 1: have in my mind of how a ministry of presence

851
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: leads to you know really evangelism and life change. Was

852
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: a chaplain that we had when we deployed to Iraq,

853
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 1: who just two or three weeks ago took the position

854
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: of Chief of Chaplains of the United States Navy. So

855
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: since then he's moved through Southern Baptist pastor became a

856
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: Navy chaplain, and he was the guy who was always there.

857
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: Wherever we were, he was there. We were an infantry unit,

858
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:00,399
Speaker 1: so he was in the field all the time, even

859
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: when he didn't have to be. He did all the hikes,

860
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: He was always talking to people, always around. That was

861
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: before nine to eleven. Nine to eleven happened. All the

862
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: other things happened. We end up in Kuwait, and now

863
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 1: these young men are starting to think about the future

864
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:16,479
Speaker 1: and their eternity. And man, he had a huge open

865
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 1: door because he spent two years laying the groundwork by

866
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: just showing up, just being around and always I used

867
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 1: the number forty. Yet it's probably not right. It may

868
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: have been more, but I always say to my recollection,

869
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 1: he baptized forty Marines during our time in Iraq. Easter

870
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: Sunday two thousand and three. He led that service in

871
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: Baghdad shortly after we had a major engagement getting into

872
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,399
Speaker 1: the city. But he earned that right. And I think

873
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: when people think of ministry at presence sometimes they think, oh,

874
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: you're not going to share the gospel. That's not at

875
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,359
Speaker 1: all what it is. It's a relationship building process that

876
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: leads to hopefully the person you're in that relationship with

877
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:00,399
Speaker 1: having a moment where they come to you and say

878
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: I need to hear. I need to hear the whole thing.

879
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's a a great story to underline that. I

880
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,839
Speaker 2: had lunch with a friend of mine, an officer that

881
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 2: had just kind of come into their own spiritual how

882
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 2: to say it, getting serious about their spiritual walk. I'd

883
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: known this person for fifteen years at least, maybe had

884
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 2: ridden with them in the car. We'd been through some

885
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:41,879
Speaker 2: pretty ridiculous trauma together. So now they're telling me, I'm

886
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 2: meeting with these people. We're doing this Bible study, and

887
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 2: we're moving from this Bible study to this Bible study.

888
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 2: And I mean just all this excitement and about their

889
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 2: faith and everything. And when they got done, and you know,

890
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 2: I ended up giving them a Bible. I've given out

891
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 2: more Bibles this year, Bibles that I can't tell you

892
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: and I've given out a ton this year, and I've

893
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 2: always had them available. I always have them with me,

894
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 2: but I don't force them on people. It's when they're

895
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 2: when they open that door. So this officer gave him

896
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 2: a Bible, and I said, let me ask you a question.

897
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 2: I said, if I had shared Jesus with you, if

898
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 2: I'd pushed Jesus on you fifteen years ago, would you

899
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 2: and I be here today having lunch and having this

900
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 2: conversation immediately? Nope, But many of us in the church field,

901
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: I've got to get the gospel and I've got to

902
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 2: do I got to do it regardless, right and again,

903
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 2: I allow the Holy Spirit to be working in the

904
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 2: person in his time, not my time. I may feel

905
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:48,280
Speaker 2: the urgency, and yes, have I had conversations with people

906
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 2: when they're days or you know, hours from death one

907
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 2: hundred percent, But this person was no. They people could

908
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: question me and say, well, Chuck, you wouldn't know if

909
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,279
Speaker 2: the next day they were die. No, I wouldn't. I

910
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 2: really wouldn't. And I pray that God gives me the

911
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: wisdom and discernment every day that it's him, not me

912
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: and my agenda. And have I made mistakes I'm sure

913
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 2: hundreds of them, hundreds of some I know and many

914
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. But the good thing is my mistakes

915
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: aren't big enough that guy can erase and fill it

916
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 2: with somebody else to you know, fill it with the

917
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 2: truth or be there. You know, maybe my mistake is

918
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: what pushed them towards that person that actually they connected

919
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 2: better with.

920
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: So it was so good, what a great perspective talk

921
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: about Wickham Ministries and how that started and you know

922
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: what that means.

923
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, so Wicksim Ministries really started as an evangelism tool

924
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 2: when I was in the church. I was actually coming

925
00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 2: back from I think it was my uncle's funeral from

926
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 2: Arizona and just kind of in that melancholy, just kind

927
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,520
Speaker 2: of driving but not really there kind of thing. And

928
00:49:57,239 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 2: I don't know why I got on the what would

929
00:49:58,760 --> 00:49:59,200
Speaker 2: Jesus do?

930
00:49:59,320 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: Thing?

931
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 2: And I'd just seen what would Jesus do? Bracelets at

932
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 2: a seven to eleven store by the cash register as

933
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 2: an impulse by item, and I thought, there's something the

934
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 2: matter with that when it's lost its meaning? So I said,

935
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,760
Speaker 2: why is that? And this is the conversation I'm having

936
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 2: for five hours coming back from Arizona. Why is that happening,

937
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,799
Speaker 2: you know, this philosophical thought in my mind, Well, because Jesus,

938
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 2: you can define Jesus, but Christ is self identifying. So

939
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 2: I can say Jesus is a prophet, Jesus is a this,

940
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 2: Jesus is a that, or Jesus is the Antichrist. But

941
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,480
Speaker 2: I can't say that Christ is because Christ is self defining.

942
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 2: So I thought, huh, what can I do with that?

943
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 2: And in my mind, I'm going, what is Christ? Somehow

944
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 2: what is Christ? Became in wicim? Okay, but what if? Okay? Wait,

945
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 2: the Greek letter kai was used to represent Christ. We

946
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: see it in the Little Excuse. And I vetted that

947
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 2: with a New Testament profit, a Greek scholar, and he said,

948
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 2: oh yeah, absolutely, So the W I X I M

949
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 2: is what is Christ in me? And then I thought, wait,

950
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 2: that could be what? Who, win, where? And why? Now

951
00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 2: I got to come up with answers. So I sat

952
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,399
Speaker 2: down with that same New Testament prof. And we were

953
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 2: working on acronyms because this is an acronym, and I

954
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 2: wanted an acronym for an answer so it'd be easy

955
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 2: to remember, because the premise of it is, whereas you know,

956
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 2: what would Jesus do people just fill that in with

957
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 2: what they thought Jesus, whoever their definition of Jesus would do.

958
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 2: If is what is Christ in me? Okay, then I've

959
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 2: got it. What is the Savior in me? Basically? So

960
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 2: I wanted it to be something where you wear a

961
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,399
Speaker 2: Wixham shirt, you have a Wixim sticker on your car,

962
00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 2: you have a Wixom hat, and people ask you what's that,

963
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 2: Just like if they ask you what's bill Abong or

964
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: what's Nike or what's that? If they weren't familiar with it,

965
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,400
Speaker 2: you'd say, oh, it's a serf kind of surf skateboard,

966
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: you know, kind of clothing thing or whatever. It would

967
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 2: just be. You take one of the questions it means

968
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 2: when is Christ in me? And you answer it, well,

969
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 2: the answer spells out flame and so what is Christ

970
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,319
Speaker 2: to me? The F is forgiver of my sins? The

971
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 2: who is Christ me? The Ella's leader Lord? The win

972
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 2: is Christ to me? The A as always? Where is

973
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 2: Christ me? Resides in my heart my soul? So it's

974
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 2: my heart? And why is Christ to me? For eternal life?

975
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 2: So somebody asks you, hey, what's Wickham? You say it

976
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 2: means when is Christ me? He says, he's always with me,

977
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 2: He'll never leave me nor forsake me. It was hopefully

978
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 2: an easy way to be in a conversational evangelism rather

979
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 2: than a hey, if you die to day, do you

980
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 2: know if you go to heaven or hell? Let me

981
00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 2: draw this bridge illustration? Can you put where you are?

982
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 2: Which again I'll have their place. Well, we've kind of

983
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 2: defaulted to that rather than the relational conversational. How do

984
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:50,719
Speaker 2: we inject truth into conversation? And if I can, I'm

985
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,399
Speaker 2: going to be I call it polite evangelism because I'm

986
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,359
Speaker 2: just simply answering your question. You can't be offended you

987
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,919
Speaker 2: asked me. Or I call it nan nan or nana

988
00:52:58,520 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 2: evangelism because once you ask me, I'm throwing truth at you. Answer. Yeah,

989
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 2: Isaiah fifty five tells usaid, we'll return to void. So

990
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 2: nan nanna you know so? But it was I and

991
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 2: I outfitted some youth like like summer camps in the Midwest,

992
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 2: and then I wrote a Bible study that they could

993
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 2: go through one of the questions a day and that'd

994
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,719
Speaker 2: be kind of their Bible study or their their subjects.

995
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:26,919
Speaker 2: But it would have wisom down an arm. It would

996
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 2: have their logo here, so I was hoping. I told them,

997
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 2: I said, the kids can go back to their middle school,

998
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 2: to their high school and hopefully wear the shirt. And

999
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 2: somebody says, hey, okay, I know that you went to

1000
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 2: the camp. What's that? And hopefully from the camp then

1001
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 2: they would have the foundation to just conversationally share their

1002
00:53:44,280 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 2: faith and it wouldn't It may be awkward, you know, maybe,

1003
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 2: but maybe not. It just means what is Christ me?

1004
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 2: He's the one who forgave me and my sins, or

1005
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,400
Speaker 2: you know, I means, why is Christ me? I have

1006
00:53:54,440 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 2: eternal life, man, it doesn't end at this life. I

1007
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 2: think that's pretty cool. So that was the idea behind it,

1008
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 2: and then it evolved. I got really busy with the

1009
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 2: church and couldn't do that as much with the clothing

1010
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,960
Speaker 2: and the youth groups and stuff. So I had a

1011
00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:13,239
Speaker 2: friend who was a juvenile hall chaplain who needed a

1012
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 2: place to reside his ministry. He was a missionary as well,

1013
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,120
Speaker 2: and we talked about it. I said, just let me

1014
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 2: talk to my lawyer and see what I have to do.

1015
00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:25,320
Speaker 2: So we tweaked our little constitution our by laws a

1016
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 2: little bit, and it was a creative way to share

1017
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,760
Speaker 2: our ministry with the logo and with clothing and stuff

1018
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,439
Speaker 2: like that, which evolved into a creative way to share

1019
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 2: our ministry through chaplaincy. So it's still creative and every

1020
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 2: person does it uniquely to them.

1021
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:46,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's awesome, man, Chuck. I appreciate it. Thank you

1022
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 1: for the time, Thank you for the conversation. Where can

1023
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 1: people find out about wixhom and the ministry and you

1024
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: have a number of things on there that you do

1025
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 1: that people can connect to you. And then for someone

1026
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,479
Speaker 1: that may be interested in chaplain see what's the best

1027
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 1: way to connect to you so that you can kind

1028
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: of help walk them through that.

1029
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can. They can go to wickhim dot com.

1030
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 2: That's our that's our website. Uh, you know, I you

1031
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 2: can post my number, my phone number. I don't know

1032
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 2: how this how this works, but if you want to

1033
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,760
Speaker 2: post that at the end of that, you can post

1034
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 2: that in my email. They can. I'm not the I'm

1035
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 2: not the only person that does this in the world,

1036
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 2: but I'm passionate about it. And uh, I can give

1037
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,359
Speaker 2: them at least a foundation of what works and what

1038
00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:31,799
Speaker 2: has worked for twenty four and a half years and

1039
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 2: what works in the four agencies I've worked with, and

1040
00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 2: I also did a stint with the FBI Ministry of

1041
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:42,040
Speaker 2: Presence works. Doing it my way or the highway coming

1042
00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:45,720
Speaker 2: in from clergy doesn't work. And I'm more than happy

1043
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 2: to have those conversations with them to help set them

1044
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 2: up for success. So yeah, I would love to talk

1045
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 2: to anybody that's interested in law enforcement, first responder, chaplaincy.

1046
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: That's awesome, and we will, we will. We'll put all

1047
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,399
Speaker 1: the contact information in the UH in the notes here.

1048
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 1: When this pushed out, Chuck, thank you so much, really

1049
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: appreciate it.

1050
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for the opportunity. I appreciate it as well.

1051
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: I love what I do, and I hope you can

1052
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 2: tell them a little bit of passion.

1053
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:15,320
Speaker 1: It's good to have passion as a as the father

1054
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 1: of a police officer. Also, I appreciate what you do,

1055
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:23,360
Speaker 1: and I'm just grateful for really your love for the Lord,

1056
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 1: but a love for the Lord that extends to a

1057
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: love for people. And yeah, thank you for that.

1058
00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

1059
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 1: For those that are watching or listening, thank you. And

1060
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 1: if you have not subscribed to the show, please do

1061
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 1: that and then take this share it out with folks

1062
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 1: that you know, and if there's anything we can do

1063
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 1: for you, let us know, thank you, and we'll talk

1064
00:56:43,680 --> 00:56:44,879
Speaker 1: to you next time.