1 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 2: The very thing that you think disqualifies you is actually 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 2: your superpower. That's the space you find all your power, 4 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 2: because that's where Jesus wants to meet you. 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 3: This podcast is for the woman who loves Jesus or 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,840 Speaker 3: who is longing to reconnect with him and who knows 7 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 3: deep down that alcohol is no longer serving her. I'm 8 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 3: your host, Dan your coach, Christy Osborn. Here we'll talk honestly, 9 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 3: with grace and truth about how stepping away from wine 10 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 3: opens the door to the love, joy, peace and connection 11 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 3: you've been searching for. Because, Babe, those were never meant 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 3: to be found in a bottle of wine. They're found 13 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 3: in Jesus. Through scripture, coaching and neuroscience, I'll help you 14 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 3: make sense of your habits, your nervous system, and your 15 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 3: heart so freedom feels possible and sustainable. You don't have 16 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 3: to do this alone, babe. Welcome to Love Life Sober. 17 00:00:59,000 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: Today. 18 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 3: I'm joined by doctor Zoe Shaw, licensed psychotherapist, author, speaker, 19 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 3: and host of the Stronger and Difficult Places podcast, and 20 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 3: we're talking about something many women quietly carry shame, specifically 21 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 3: what doctor Zoe calls complex shame. If you're drinking story, 22 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 3: you're coping, you're scrolling, you're hiding, or that constant thought 23 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 3: of I should be past this by now has slowly 24 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 3: attached to your identity, then Babe, this conversation is going 25 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: to land deep. Doctor Zoe breaks down the difference between guilt, 26 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 3: simple shame, and complex shame, why shame keeps us stuck 27 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,199 Speaker 3: in hiding, and how untangling it is not about trying harder, 28 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 3: but learning to heal differently. We also talk about how 29 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 3: faith spaces can unintentionally reinforce shame and why Jesus never 30 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:47,319 Speaker 3: uses shame as a tool for transformation. If you've ever 31 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 3: believed your story disqualifies you from closeness with God, from healing, 32 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 3: or from freedom, then babe, this episode is for you. 33 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 3: Let's dive in. Hi, my friend, how are you, Doctor Zoe. 34 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 3: It's so good to have you here. 35 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 2: Oh Christy, I'm so glad that we have finally made 36 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: this happen. I'm thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to be here. 37 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 3: Doctor Zoe and I are friends because we are in 38 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 3: the same amazing authors group, and she has written so 39 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 3: much on so many important topics. 40 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: But what I really want to talk about today is shame. 41 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 3: And complex shame, because Zoe, the way that you speak 42 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 3: about shame is going to help so many women that 43 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 3: are struggling with alcohol who are in the community. How 44 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: is complex shame, which is the term that you coined, 45 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 3: different from shame? And how does it affect women that 46 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 3: are struggling with alcohol or any other coping mechanism, you know. 47 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: I think the. 48 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 2: First thing before we even dive into shame that I 49 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: feel like I want to say is that everybody has 50 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: something right. In my two and a half decades of 51 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 2: seeing clients and I don't know how many thousands and 52 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 2: thousands of people, that is, what I've come to know 53 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: is no matter where they come from, no matter what 54 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: walk of life, whatever, everybody has something that they are 55 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 2: dealing with that causes them shame or that their shame caused. 56 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 1: That makes sense. It's kind of like a cyclical thing. 57 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 2: And just for that, I hope people can begin to 58 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 2: release some shame, just knowing everybody does. 59 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: It's different, and we judge. 60 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: We judge it too, like we judge the things the 61 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: issues that people have, like some issues we decide are 62 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: better than other issues. I think women who struggle and 63 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 2: recovery feel like they're their shame is different, and it is. 64 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 2: And when I say different, what I mean is that 65 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: it's judged differently. The type of shame that people in 66 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: recovery feel is complex shame, and we'll talk about that. 67 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 2: So first, complex shame are simple shame. We have to 68 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: understand what in the world is this stuff? Right? And 69 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: I think people get it a little mixed up, So 70 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to make it as simple as I can, 71 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: but sometimes it goes along. The first thing we have 72 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 2: to understand is guilt, because guilt is different than shame. 73 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: Guilt is when it's valid, because sometimes it's not valid. 74 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 2: But when it's valid, guilt is a very healthy emotion 75 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 2: that tells us I've done something to break my moral code. 76 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: That's it. 77 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 2: We feel a physiological response when we know we've done 78 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 2: something to break our moral code, but it's just an 79 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 2: emotion that gives us that message. And the reason why 80 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 2: it's healthy is because we actually need guilt to incite 81 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: us to make changes right. When we've veered off of 82 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: our path, our own path, guilt helps us get back 83 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: on the path. So what happens is when we feel guilty, 84 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 2: either we want to go back and we want to 85 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 2: repair it right, So we want to apologize, We want 86 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 2: to try to fix it. Sometimes we can, sometimes we can't, 87 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: or we decide, I'm not going to do that anymore. 88 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 2: I don't want to feel that way. I'm not going 89 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: to do that anymore, And so it creates healthy change. 90 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: Shame is very different. Though shame gets attached to our identity, 91 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: shame is also a physiological emotion, like we feel it 92 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 2: in our body and our emotion. 93 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: But shame tells us I am wrong. 94 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: So if I am wrong, there's nothing for me to 95 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:09,480 Speaker 2: do except for hide. And so the reason why shame 96 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:12,840 Speaker 2: is always unhealthy is because it makes us hide. It 97 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 2: does not make us repair, It doesn't make us do 98 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: anything good. And when we hide, things just get worse. 99 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: We sabotaze ourselves, we destroy relationships, we do all kinds 100 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,120 Speaker 2: of things, and shame is a big driver for that. 101 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: Right we you know, well, I'll talk to you about 102 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 2: the steps of it. And one of the things is 103 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: that we hurt ourselves. When we have shame, we can 104 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: drive us into addictions and it can keep us in addiction. 105 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,359 Speaker 1: And so that's a difference between guilt and shame. 106 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 2: Now, complex shame is even different still it's still the 107 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 2: same emotion that says I am wrong. But the difference 108 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 2: is that with simple shame, and Brene Brown talks about 109 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: this wonderfully. With simple shame, when you talk about it 110 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: and you receive external compassion when someone says me too, 111 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: when someone says I get it, and they kind of 112 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 2: they forgive you, you get that external acceptance and come passion. 113 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: Simple shame disappears all. 114 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 2: Of a sudden, You're like, Oh, I'm okay, I'm just 115 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: like everybody you know. You get that sense of, oh, 116 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 2: I'm not wrong. The problem is with complex shame, because 117 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 2: it's created a little differently because it has so many 118 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 2: others complex and if so many other shames attached to it, 119 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,279 Speaker 2: that when you receive that external compassion, let's say you 120 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 2: try to do that, you come vulnerable. Two things can happen. 121 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: One is that when someone gives you external compassion, your 122 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 2: internal response is, oh, but you don't. 123 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 1: You don't really know, Like if. 124 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: You really understood, you really knew all the things, you 125 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 2: would not be giving me that compassion, And so we 126 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 2: can't accept it, and so shame stays and it dives deeper. 127 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: The other way that complex shame stays and dies deeper. 128 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 2: Is that when you attempt to get that external response 129 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: our compassion, you don't get it. People gaslight you, they 130 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 2: tell you, Oh, and this happens a lot with marginalized communities. Oh, 131 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 2: you're overreacting. That didn't really happen. You're not seeing it 132 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:04,360 Speaker 2: that way. I'm not sure about that. They actually dismiss 133 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 2: your experience, right, And when your experience is dismissed, shame 134 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 2: doesn't go away. It dives deeper. Right, So that's kind 135 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: of the difference between guilt, simple shame and conflict shame. 136 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 137 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: And when you're just speaking just now though, I'm just 138 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 3: thinking about all the women who have been bold and 139 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 3: for example, in the Love Life Sober Community be it 140 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 3: open and said I'm struggling with alcohol. And when you 141 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 3: talk about this, I think it's so important because, as 142 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 3: Brene Brown says, right, radical vulnerability can help, but it 143 00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 3: also has to go a step further. And I love 144 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 3: the way that you talk about accountability, right for the 145 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 3: things that you have done in a way that is 146 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 3: in a space full of grace, obviously, but just to 147 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 3: be kind of recognized without kind of taking that accountability. 148 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: It doesn't take that next step. 149 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think what you're jumping to is some of 150 00:07:59,920 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 2: the steps to overcoming complex shame. I kind of think 151 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: of it as like a snowball. Now. It's funny because 152 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: for people who haven't grown up around snow, I've heard 153 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 2: them describe it differently, like a ball of dust or 154 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 2: like rolls down the hill, but snowball for me, I 155 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: grew up in the East Coast. When a snowball rolls 156 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: down the hill, it collects more and more snow, It 157 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 2: also collects debris. 158 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: It just gets bigger and bigger and bigger. 159 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 2: But you also have all these layers, right, and so 160 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 2: complex shame is like that, and if you want to 161 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 2: start working on untangling it, vulnerability is a step down 162 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: the road. The first thing you have to do is 163 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 2: understand first what are my shame stories? 164 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: What hyper shame do I have? Where did they come from? 165 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 2: And so there's something that I call the phantom critic, 166 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: And the phantom critic is all those words, all those messages, 167 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: And I call it phantom because it's like it's not 168 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 2: real or true, but it's very It affects you deeply, 169 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 2: and it's also from the past. And so what happens 170 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 2: is you know, we get these messages about ourselves from society, 171 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 2: from our family of origin, from relationships we've been in experience, 172 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 2: it is, and sometimes we think when we leave those 173 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 2: experiences or relationships that we've kind of left that toxicity 174 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 2: or negative messages. But often what we do is we 175 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: just pack them up and we take them with us 176 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: and we repeat them to ourselves. And that's the phantom critic, 177 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 2: because some people will said, what about me, like the 178 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 2: ways I feel about myself and all the words that 179 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 2: I say to myself, and I'm like, that's not really 180 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 2: you saying it. That's a phantom critic. And so you've 181 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 2: got to learn to separate where those messages came from 182 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: and know what they're telling you. What are the things 183 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 2: to tell yourself when you feel so very bad about yourself? 184 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: And so when you can understand where some of those 185 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 2: shaming messages came from and what you're saying to yourself, 186 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: then you can begin to untangle. Now, one of the 187 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 2: hardest parts of untangling shame, especially especially if you've been 188 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: a victim, because when we're victimized, we feel shame, which 189 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: sounds crazy, but it is the way our brain works 190 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 2: is that you have to start to recognize the things 191 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: that you blame yourself for, whether they were something that 192 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 2: you did or something that happens to you. The way 193 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: that our brain works is we tend to blame ourselves, 194 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: especially if we're an internalizer, and that's temperament, the way 195 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 2: that we're born. Some people are more externalizers, some people 196 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: are more internalizers, and people who are more internalizers tend 197 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 2: to have a higher rate of complex shame. And so 198 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: when you can begin to say, Okay, what do I 199 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 2: blame myself for, and you can really start to separate 200 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: all the blame and you can get to a place 201 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: where you forgive yourself for things that sometimes you didn't 202 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 2: even do, because that's our the way our brain works. 203 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 2: And in therapy, this is kind of counter therapy because 204 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 2: a lot of therapists will try to give you all 205 00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 2: that external compassion. We'll try to say it wasn't your fault, 206 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 2: you shouldn't feel that way, right, They're trying to give 207 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: you that sense, But when you have complex shame, it 208 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 2: doesn't work because remember you're like, oh, but you don't know, 209 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: so I want to go to all the you don't knows. 210 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 2: What are the things that people don't know that you 211 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: feel they wouldn't give you that external compassion for. And 212 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: when you can separate that and forgive yourself, which is 213 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: not vicy and blaming, it's working with the way our 214 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,319 Speaker 2: brain works. When you can forgive yourself for something that 215 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 2: you've blamed yourself for, then you can begin to untangle 216 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: complex shame. So when you get to a place of 217 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 2: forgiveness and then acceptance and then when you're vulnerable, guess what, 218 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter if somebody gives you external compassion or not, 219 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: because you've given it to yourself. The vulnerability is important 220 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 2: because you need to be able to speak it and 221 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 2: withstand any of the gas lighting or any response that 222 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 2: you're going to get. But when you get to that 223 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 2: phase of maintenance, you have freed yourself and you don't 224 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: need the external compassion in the same way. 225 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 3: That's so good, babe, That is so so good. Can 226 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: you talk a little bit about how and we don't 227 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 3: want to shame the church, obviously that's not what we're 228 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:46,960 Speaker 3: here to do, but can we talk about how the 229 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 3: church can make this When you were talking about the 230 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 3: phantom critic and the stories that we tell ourselves, how 231 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: does a church make this trickier on Christian girls. 232 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: Yes, so it's not about shaming the church, but it 233 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: is about out the truth. And I do feel very 234 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 2: strongly about this in so many ways because I grew 235 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: up in purity culture. Me too, Yeah, and purity culture 236 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 2: is part of, you know what developed a lot of 237 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 2: my complex shame and growing up in the midst of 238 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 2: purity culture. I got pregnant at fifteen, I you know, 239 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: was in a very fundamental Christian home. My dad was 240 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 2: a prominent doctor and the community. In addition to all 241 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: of the messages I already had, my parents were like, oh, yeah, 242 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 2: this isn't happening here, and they sent me away to 243 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: a pregnancy home where I was. It was understood I 244 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: was supposed to have the baby and come back and 245 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 2: pretend like nothing ever happened, which is exactly what I did, 246 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: And so I wore this internal scarlet letter. In addition 247 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 2: to all the grief and trauma of having a baby 248 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: and leaving her in the hospital and so many things, 249 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: a lot of that stem from the church. You know, 250 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: a lot of women really on a healing journey often 251 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 2: feel like they have to leave the church in order 252 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 2: to heal. Yeah, and that for me is the biggest 253 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 2: tragedy because what we have to understand is that the 254 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: church is not God right and unfortunately our modern society. 255 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: If you look at Jesus, he didn't do any of this. 256 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: But in our modern society we have learned, I should say, 257 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: we think that shaming people actually changes behavior. And so 258 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 2: it looks like it works very well, and it's used 259 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:32,719 Speaker 2: very much, and and lots of faiths were, but specifically 260 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 2: in the Christian faith, when we shame people, the behavior 261 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: looks like it goes away, and so we think it works. 262 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,400 Speaker 2: We think it's like the work of God, and it's 263 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: so not because what we actually know in research is 264 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,439 Speaker 2: that when you shame people, the only thing that happens 265 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: is they hide, and so their behavior goes underground, right, 266 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: which is why we have these crazy scandals in our 267 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: Christian church, which is so damaging, right because we have 268 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 2: all this underground behavior because of the shame, instead of 269 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 2: people being able and feeling free to talk about the 270 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: things that they struggle with. 271 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: Right. 272 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, if we go back to the Garden of Eden, 273 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 2: this is why I know for sure shame is unhealthy. 274 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 2: Shame got created by the devil when the first sin 275 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 2: happened because what he knew very well is that shame 276 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 2: makes us hide, and so shame distances us from God. 277 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 2: Shame distances us in all of our relationships. But it's 278 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 2: an excellent tool to distance us from God, and unfortunately 279 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 2: we continue to use it in the Christian Church with 280 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 2: the idea that it's healthy. 281 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: And it's not. 282 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, and so much in the alcohol recovery or whatever 283 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 3: recovery you're recovering from space too, right, It's just talk 284 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 3: about this with John Seidel all the time. We just 285 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 3: have to keep having these conversations. 286 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 2: Well, I was just thinking about, you know, the book 287 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 2: that Caroline Bidler, a mutual friend of us, wrote Downstairs Church. 288 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 2: Even those words just tell you how much shame They're like, 289 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 2: we have to be in the basement if we're in recovery, right, 290 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: Just yeah, those words alone tells you how much you 291 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: know shame is involved. And just recovery when you're doing 292 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: something healthy and struggling and recovery, like we all struggle 293 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: with things. 294 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. 295 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 3: I mean when I was pitching Love Life Sober, one 296 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 3: of the big publishing houses said to me, what woman 297 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 3: is going to hold that in church? 298 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 1: I was like, that's why I need to write it that. 299 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: Oh goodness, we'll be. 300 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 3: Back right after a quick word from our sponsors. Babe, 301 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 3: can I pause us just for a moment If you're 302 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 3: listening to this and thinking I don't want to do 303 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 3: this alone anymore. I want to tell you about the 304 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 3: Love Life Sober Community. This is the space where the 305 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:42,479 Speaker 3: podcast turns into real connection and real support. Inside the community, 306 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 3: we gather weekly for live connection calls where you can listen, share, 307 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 3: or simply be present. There's a beautiful leadership team holding 308 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 3: this space with wisdom and care, a dedicated prayer request 309 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 3: area where you can be covered, regular masterclasses led by 310 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 3: expert guests, and even a worship music playlist to help 311 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 3: you reconnect when your nervous system needs it. Inside the community, 312 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 3: there's also a dedicated coaching space called Truevine for women 313 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: who want even deeper support. The Love Life Sober Community 314 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 3: is a place to connect with like minded women and 315 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 3: open up in a way you might not be able 316 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 3: to in your church or small group. This space was 317 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 3: created specifically for women who are questioning their relationship with 318 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 3: alcohol and who want the kind of freedom that can 319 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 3: only be found in Jesus. All the details to join us. 320 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 3: Are at the link in the show notes. I can't 321 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 3: wait to meet you. All right, let's jump back into 322 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 3: the episode. You touched on a little bit of your story, 323 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 3: but I want to know a little bit more about 324 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 3: how your story then gave you this beautiful testimony and 325 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 3: informed so much of your work, Like what made you 326 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 3: decide that this is what you wanted to write about 327 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 3: and help people with. 328 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 2: You know, I think, like so many of us, it 329 00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: chooses us. We don't choose it. You know, this was 330 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 2: not something at all that I ever well. Number one, 331 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 2: I had been taught to hide this, to keep this 332 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 2: a secret, from the time I was sixteen years old. 333 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 2: I went back home and ended like nothing happened. And 334 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 2: I did that for decades. And when I finally was 335 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:14,679 Speaker 2: able to break free and heal and speak my truth 336 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 2: and own my story and release my shame, I couldn't 337 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 2: stop talking about it. And you know, my intention was 338 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: to actually write a self help book that had nothing 339 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 2: to do with this. But when I sat down to 340 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: write my one hundred thousand word memoir came out, and 341 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: that will probably never be published. It's in a drawer. 342 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 2: But from that memoir, I took pieces of my story 343 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,919 Speaker 2: and wrote my book Stronger Than Difficult Places, which helps 344 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: a woman anybody. Really, I've plenty of men who've said 345 00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 2: this has been so helpful for them, helps them release 346 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: their complex shame. So the only thing I can say 347 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 2: is I did not intend to do this, but when 348 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 2: you have healed and you have experienced a freedom you 349 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: could not have imagined, when that weight that you didn't 350 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: even know was so heavy finally falls off your shoulders, 351 00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 2: for me, there was no option but to share this 352 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 2: with other people, to say, wait, you can have this 353 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 2: freedom too, And seeing so many people in my practice 354 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 2: burdened by shame, I just I didn't have a choice. 355 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: I had to talk about it, and I continue to 356 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: talk about it because I know that this particular shame 357 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 2: is so damaging, and releasing it is freedom. 358 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 1: So I talk about it my vulnerable story. 359 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 2: I still experience a lot of my own vulnerability, but 360 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: you know, it gets easier and easier. I've had a 361 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,919 Speaker 2: lot of pushback from you know, family who you know 362 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,240 Speaker 2: have taught me to keep secrets, and so I'm kind 363 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: of breaking that mold. And that's hard for anybody who 364 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 2: has a similar story. And when I say similar story, 365 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 2: their story is not the same as mine. I haven't 366 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: even shared all of it. It's okay to speak the 367 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 2: things that you've been taught are not okay to say. 368 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: You know, I still haven't got and I got this 369 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 2: temporary tattoo and I'm gonna get a permanent one soon. 370 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: That says you own your story. I meaning you get 371 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 2: to speak it and say it, but also own your 372 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 2: story because your story is important and no matter what 373 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,720 Speaker 2: in the world it was, it's shaped who you are. 374 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 2: And so I encourage everybody to own it in such 375 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 2: a radical way that they're owning it in a shame 376 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:24,159 Speaker 2: free way. 377 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: If that makes sense. Yeah, I love that so much. 378 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,360 Speaker 3: Will you speak and encourage the woman right now who 379 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 3: feels like their story they're in the difficult place, and 380 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 3: that difficult place is disqualifying them from being close to Jesus? 381 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 3: What would you say to her? Because they're so I mean, 382 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 3: I can just see the faces of so many women 383 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 3: that feel. 384 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: That, Oh my heart goes out to her because she 385 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: is me. She is me. I've felt disqualified. 386 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: Since fifteen years old when I became pregnant out of wedlock, 387 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,000 Speaker 2: right and all the things, the cascading things that have 388 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 2: happened since then. You know, the thing that I want 389 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 2: to share with a woman who feels disqualified is that 390 00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:13,080 Speaker 2: the very thing that you think disqualifies you is actually 391 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: your superpower. That's the space where if you lean into it, 392 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 2: and I fought it, I've fought it forever. 393 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: I kept my secret for years and years and years. 394 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 2: When you lean into the thing that you think disqualifies you, 395 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 2: you find all your power. Because that's where Jesus wants 396 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 2: to meet you. He came for that. He didn't come 397 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 2: for your perfection, right. 398 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: He came for that. 399 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 2: And because you're not the only one there is, there's 400 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 2: nothing new under the sun. You can take that thing 401 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: that you think disqualifies you and use it to help yourself, 402 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 2: to help your family, to help I mean, on whatever way, however, 403 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,159 Speaker 2: like however big you want to do it. You know, 404 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,199 Speaker 2: I was an unwed mother. I then you know, went 405 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: on to get married very very early, and a dysfunctional marriage. 406 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 2: I had a daughter who has, you know, a severe 407 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 2: genetic disorder. I've now been through a divorce. There's so 408 00:21:08,880 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 2: many reasons why you could look at me and say 409 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 2: you're not really qualified to talk about, you know, God 410 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,959 Speaker 2: and relationships, and all of these things, when actually I 411 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,840 Speaker 2: am I am the most qualified aside from you know, 412 00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 2: all of my degrees and training, because I've been through it, 413 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:29,679 Speaker 2: because I understand, because I actually don't know judgment for people. 414 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 2: And so the other thing I'd like to say is 415 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 2: that at least for me and for a lot of women, 416 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: a lot of people in recovery who have all this shame, 417 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: we tend to put number one, of course, limits on God. 418 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 2: But we see him through a lens, often of our 419 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 2: earthly father. Often, you know, people in our lives who 420 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: have judged us, and it's hard for us to not 421 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: see God through that lens. Yeah, and so that's some 422 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 2: of the work that we have to do. Because no 423 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 2: one is disqualified in God's eyes because He created us 424 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 2: human like God created you. You were not disqualified. But 425 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: you've got to get to a point of recognizing that 426 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 2: the view that you have of Him is skewed. There's 427 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 2: nothing wrong with God, righting wrong with you, but you 428 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: have a very skewed view of God that's making you 429 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 2: feel disqualified. And that's not a message from Him. That's 430 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 2: a message from the enemy. And that's your work to do. Nobody, 431 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 2: nobody is disqualified. Yeah, no, that's so good, babe. 432 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 3: And also you get to that place of not having 433 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 3: a skewed view of God obviously by getting to know 434 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 3: who He really is, right. And that's that's what I 435 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 3: always say, is I like my shame was able to 436 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 3: be dealt with because I figured out who Jesus really was, 437 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 3: not the Jesus that I was like making up in 438 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:49,680 Speaker 3: my head. 439 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,159 Speaker 2: Well, you weren't making him up in your head. It 440 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 2: was the Jesus you were taught, right, it's the things 441 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 2: that you were taught. Yeah, and we have to unlearn that. 442 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: We have to unlearn the false teachings that makes us 443 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 2: feel disqualified. 444 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 1: And for so many women that are listening to this, 445 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: they're reconnecting with their faith with God for like the 446 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 1: first time in a really, really long time, and they've 447 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: grown up in church. And then maybe they're similar to 448 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: me where their struggle with alcohol or whatever your struggle is, 449 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: it's put you know who you need to lean on, right, 450 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: And so you're getting to know Jesus for the first 451 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 1: time again. And I would just say that is. 452 00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 3: The best place to be because he wants, as you 453 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 3: just be so beautifully said, he wants to meet you 454 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 3: there and show you exactly who he is and his word, 455 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 3: and so get in the Bible. 456 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: Get in the Bible, open it up, open it up, 457 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 2: and pay attention to what Jesus did. 458 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,760 Speaker 1: Just read all the stories. Yes, watch him. 459 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: You know when you look at what he did instead 460 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 2: of you know what other people are telling you about 461 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 2: about how God judges you. He tells the whole story. 462 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 2: He tells it all. 463 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so so good, babe. 464 00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 3: We'll be back right after a quick word from our sponsors. 465 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 3: Can you encourage the woman who maybe has not been 466 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 3: vulnerable at all and is scared to even say I 467 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 3: might be drinking a little bit too much, or I 468 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 3: might be scrolling a little bit too much, or whatever 469 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 3: it is that she because we have so many gals 470 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 3: that are saying it for the first time, but we 471 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 3: also have goals that are still feeling that hiding and 472 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 3: I can't come out. 473 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: What would you say to her? 474 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 2: It is so scary. I want to just let's start 475 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 2: with that. I just want to acknowledge. It is terrifying, 476 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 2: and yet you can and you must. And when I 477 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,680 Speaker 2: think of the first time I shared my shame story, 478 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:45,160 Speaker 2: it was gut wrenching voice trembling, not even the first time, 479 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,880 Speaker 2: the first few times, the first many times. Right now, 480 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 2: these words roll off of my tongue so easily because 481 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 2: I've done it and done it and done it. And 482 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,360 Speaker 2: what I can tell you is when I first disclosed 483 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 2: to my own children, because I kept the secret from 484 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 2: them too, that they had a sister, I just remember 485 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 2: when the words came out of my mouth, I literally 486 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 2: wanted to grab them and pull them and bring them 487 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 2: back in. I was like, no, I don't want to 488 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,679 Speaker 2: say that, but the weight that got lifted when I 489 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,119 Speaker 2: know carried a secret is worth all of the fear. 490 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: It's worth all of the fear. And here's the other thing. 491 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 2: When I've told other people, and I have this idea 492 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 2: like if I tell, and for a woman listening, she 493 00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 2: has this story too. If I tell, then and she's 494 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 2: created something that's not real, but she's created a whole 495 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 2: story about it because she's not terrified at the telling. 496 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 2: She's terrified of If I tell, then my whole world 497 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,640 Speaker 2: will fall apart. People will look at me this way. 498 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: I you know all the things. And what I can 499 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 2: tell her is that the craziest thing is that after 500 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,879 Speaker 2: holding decades of a secret and speaking it out to 501 00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: the world. The thing that flabbergasted me the most was 502 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 2: that nothing happened. Yeah, nobody really cares. So I'm saying 503 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: that not in the meanest way. I'm saying it in 504 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 2: the best way. Nobody really cares. You make your secret 505 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: way bigger. 506 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: Than it is. 507 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 2: When you tell somebody, Yeah, they might think about it 508 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: for a few minutes that they love you, they'll have compassion, right, 509 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: they might even talk about you for a minute, but 510 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 2: then they're going to go back to thinking about their 511 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 2: own shame story. And so the reality is is that 512 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 2: we carry these burdens because we have these false stories 513 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 2: about what will happen. And I can tell you what 514 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 2: will happen is nothing. You will share your story and 515 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 2: nothing will happen, and that's the best thing. And so 516 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 2: I know it's still hard, and I know it's still scary, 517 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,760 Speaker 2: And so start by writing it out yourself. Get a 518 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 2: journal and admit it to yourself for the first time 519 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: on paper, and then read it out loud, right, and 520 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 2: then find a trusted person. And sometimes it's easier to 521 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 2: tell a stranger than it is to tell someone you know. 522 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: And you can find a therapist if you can't even 523 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: afford a therapist. When I say this in my book, 524 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: you can ask a therapist for one session. I will 525 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 2: always get somebody one session if they say, hey, I 526 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 2: can't afford therapy, I've saved up and I need this 527 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 2: one session. Can I just like just have a session 528 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 2: and just tell everything I want to say? And I 529 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 2: would absolutely, one hundred percent do that. And so find someone, 530 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 2: find someone that you can start sharing your story with, 531 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: because the more you say it, the easier it gets, 532 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 2: the more you own it, and then change can happen. 533 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so good. 534 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 3: I've seen that so many times with gals who are 535 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 3: afraid to tell their husband, they're drinking, afraid to tell 536 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 3: a sister, afraid to tell a best friend or whatever. 537 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 3: And then they go and they do the really hard 538 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 3: thing and they open up and then they come see 539 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 3: me the next week and they're like, nothing happened. They 540 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 3: were actually like, Oh, amazing, let's work all this together, 541 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 3: or how can I help you or how can I 542 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 3: pray for you? I mean, it doesn't go that way 543 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,199 Speaker 3: all the time, obviously, but as you said, like we 544 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 3: just tell ourselves so many stories about what's going to happen. 545 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: It just we don't need to do that. We don't. 546 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: We don't we understand why you do. We don't. 547 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, one, tell the gals about your amazing book and 548 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 3: how it can help them because it's so so good 549 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 3: and it's so relatable. 550 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: Tell tell the listeners all about the book. Yes. 551 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 2: So the book is called Stronger in the Difficult Places, 552 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 2: same name as my podcast, and the subtitle is Heal 553 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 2: your relationship with yourself by Untangling Complex Shame. And so 554 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 2: the book, through my own personal story, but it's not 555 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 2: a memoir, outlines the eight steps of complex shame. It 556 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 2: talks to you about the types of shame, how it developed, 557 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: and really it just helps you learn to free yourself 558 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 2: from shame. 559 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: That's the goal of the book. 560 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: And I and the thing is, at the end of 561 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,920 Speaker 2: every single chapter, I give a little piece of hope. 562 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 2: The reason why I can talk about shame with the 563 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: smile on my face because shame is such a not 564 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 2: fun and sexy kind of you know topic, But I 565 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 2: talk about it with a smile on my face because 566 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: of the freedom that can be had when you release it. 567 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 2: And so's not you know, a book that's just like, 568 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 2: you know, a total downer although my story is hard 569 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: and it's maybe a little hard to read, but this 570 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 2: is a book that offers freedom to anybody who experiences shame, 571 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 2: which is everyone. 572 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh my gosh, you have to come and do 573 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 3: a masterclass on the eight steps. 574 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: In the community. I would love to. Oh my gosh, 575 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: this girls would love it. I that. Yeah. 576 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 3: Tell everybody where they can find you and how they 577 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 3: can follow you and keep up with your work. And 578 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:38,880 Speaker 3: Zoe is one of my If you go to my 579 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,600 Speaker 3: recommended substack, she's right there at the top of the list. 580 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: Thank you. 581 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:46,360 Speaker 2: Yes, you can find me on Instagram at doctor Zoe Shaw. 582 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 2: You can find me at my website the same. My 583 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 2: podcast is called Stronger in the Difficult Places and connect 584 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 2: with me. I love to hear stories. I love to 585 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 2: help anybody who's struggling with shame. 586 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, doctor Zoe. You're the best, and 587 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 3: I'm so glad we finally got to do this. 588 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 2: Yes, and thank you so much for what you're doing 589 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 2: and all the work that you're doing. 590 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: Christie. 591 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 3: Oh well, it's so amazing to be able to run 592 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 3: these races next to each other. All right, gals, we'll 593 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 3: see you next week. Thank you for spending this time 594 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 3: with me on love Life Sober. If today's conversation stirred 595 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 3: something in your heart, don't rush past it, take it 596 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 3: to prayer. If you're feeling ready for deeper connection and support, 597 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,360 Speaker 3: I'd love to invite you into the love Life Sober community, 598 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 3: a grace filled, shame free space where real connection grows 599 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 3: and lasting change takes root. You can find the link 600 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 3: to join us in the show notes. Love Life Sober 601 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 3: is part of the Life Audio podcast Network, where faith 602 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 3: centered podcasts help you grow deeper in your walk with Christ. 603 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 3: You can find more faith centered podcasts at lifeaudio dot com. 604 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 3: Until next time, be gentle with yourself, stay curious, and 605 00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 3: trust God's promises. He has freedom waiting for you.