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Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hello, Hello, and welcome to the Confessions of

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Speaker 1: a Christian Alcoholic podcast. I am your host, John Seidel.

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Speaker 1: This is your home for real stories, radical vulnerability, and

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Speaker 1: remarkable comebacks. In the end, this podcast is a place

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Speaker 1: for the desperate, the downtrodden, the destitute, and especially the drunk.

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Speaker 1: But it's also a place of hope and healing. I

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Speaker 1: know that firsthand because I'm the Christian who became an alcoholic,

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Speaker 1: not the other way around. Today I've found sobriety after

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Speaker 1: decades of struggling. But more importantly than finding sobriety, I

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Speaker 1: found Jesus. My prayer is that as I interview people

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Speaker 1: just like you and just like me, along with professionals

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Speaker 1: in the fields of trauma, faith and addiction recovery, you

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Speaker 1: will find the piece that is available to you through

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Speaker 1: Christ on the other side of whatever you're going through

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Speaker 1: and whatever addiction that might be. Because let's face it, we're

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Speaker 1: all addicted to something so welcome. Let's get radically vulnerable

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Speaker 1: as we explore what it looks like to be on

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Speaker 1: this journey of MESSI sanctification. We'll be right back after

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Speaker 1: This is what you're struggling with right now, Think about it.

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Speaker 1: Whatever it is. Maybe it's addiction, you know, alcohol, food, porn,

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Speaker 1: a hard time at work. Is that spiritual warfare? Today

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Speaker 1: we are going to talk with who I think is

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Speaker 1: one of the foremost, if not the foremost, expert on

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Speaker 1: spiritual warfare. He is an incredible human being. Has a

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Speaker 1: new book out called The Unseen Battle, all about spiritual warfare.

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Speaker 1: His name is doctor Joel Mudomalay. He has a PhD

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Speaker 1: in theology and he currently serves as the director of

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Speaker 1: Theology and Research at Proverbs thirty one Women or excuse me,

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Speaker 1: Proverbs thirty one Ministries, and co hosts a podcast with

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Speaker 1: the director of that ministry, Lisa Turkhurst. And I got

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Speaker 1: to know Joel through substack and I just love his stuff.

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Speaker 1: Even though he's a quote unquote doctor got his PhD.

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Speaker 1: He is relatable. He has a phrase that he uses,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna batch it, but he'll he'll talk about it

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Speaker 1: in the podcast about you know, a theology that isn't livable,

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Speaker 1: isn't practical, or isn't helpful. And so he does a

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Speaker 1: great job of breaking down hard to understand theological concepts

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Speaker 1: to where you and I can understand and I say,

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Speaker 1: you and I I even went to seminary right like,

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Speaker 1: and I need Joel to break things down for me.

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Speaker 1: And so we're gonna talk today about our addictions and

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Speaker 1: our struggles in light of spiritual warfare. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I grew up in an environment that over spiritualized a lot,

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Speaker 1: and so I swung the pendulum and I think, to

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Speaker 1: my detriment, right, is that then that made me more susceptible?

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Speaker 1: I think to the sirens song of alcoholism. And so

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk to Joel about all things spiritual warfare.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about how it relates to addiction,

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Speaker 1: and then what we can do about it as well.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to that, thank you everyone who

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Speaker 1: has shared this podcast, who is like to have subscribed,

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Speaker 1: who has rated it. It really makes a difference. And

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Speaker 1: the book that I've written that is in course with

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Speaker 1: this podcast, Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic, is available at

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Speaker 1: Christian Alcoholic dot com, and so if you want to

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Speaker 1: pick that up as well, I would be honored. So

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Speaker 1: without further ado, let's really get into what I think

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Speaker 1: is a powerful conversation and an important conversation that we

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Speaker 1: need in order to do battle intentional word against our addictions,

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Speaker 1: whatever they are, ladies and gentlemen. Joel Mudamali, Joel, thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining the Confessions of a Christian Alcoholic podcast.

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Speaker 1: This is not a newsflash, like you're not going to

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Speaker 1: reveal I don't think, I mean, if you want to

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Speaker 1: some hidden secret addiction. But I think what you are

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Speaker 1: going to talk about today is so relevant to those

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Speaker 1: of us who struggle. And I'm excited to get into

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Speaker 1: that in just a little bit. But thanks for coming on.

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Speaker 2: Man. Absolutely, John, I'm so excited to be with you.

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Speaker 2: And congratulations on the release of your book. That's a

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Speaker 2: huge accomplishment. And we were talking about this offline. I

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Speaker 2: am truly, like very grateful for your work and for

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Speaker 2: one year vulnerability to talk about things, and most people

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Speaker 2: just are not chasing, you know, like they're like, hey,

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Speaker 2: this is the thing when I wake up in the morning,

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Speaker 2: I want to talk about my you know, my addictions

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Speaker 2: are where the Lord has brought me through the darknes

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Speaker 2: of the soul stuff, you know. And the first book

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Speaker 2: I wrote was on humility, and I just see that

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Speaker 2: marked all over your ministry and your work, and so

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Speaker 2: I just want to encourage you in that and I

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Speaker 2: just know that God's going to use it and continue

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Speaker 2: to use it. So this is an honor for me

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Speaker 2: to be able to just hang out with you for

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Speaker 2: a bit and talk nerdy Bible theology and life stuff. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, thank you starting off almost making me cry just

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Speaker 1: because to your point, and this is something I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about. Is like, man, it's not all roses

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Speaker 1: and butterflies. Like, I feel like I'm going through a

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Speaker 1: season that maybe I might, after talking to you, categorize

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Speaker 1: a spiritual warfare, right, But I want to make sure

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Speaker 1: I have a good understanding that because and this will

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Speaker 1: frame the conversation a little bit, is I grew up

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Speaker 1: in an environment, in a very charismatic denomination where everything

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Speaker 1: was spiritualized.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's like you get the prime parking spot at Walmart

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Speaker 1: and God's favor because you tithed a little extra the

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Speaker 1: week before, right. And so for a long part of

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Speaker 1: my life, I swung the pendulum the other way and

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Speaker 1: was just so turned off by anything related to spiritual warfare.

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Speaker 1: And now I feel like I've gotten into a better place.

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Speaker 1: But I've been really looking forward to this conversation to

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Speaker 1: maybe hopefully just cement something. So you've You've written a

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Speaker 1: new book. It's coming out. It is called The Unseen

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Speaker 1: Battle and the subtitle is Spiritual Warfare, Three Rebellions and

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Speaker 1: Christ's Victory over Dark Powers. Man, talk about a title.

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Speaker 1: I would like to just start out. You know, you're

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Speaker 1: smart guy, got your PhD. And so if you could

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Speaker 1: just give a quick review. When when when we use

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Speaker 1: the term spiritual warfare? Yeah, for a lot of people

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Speaker 1: where that has been misused or they have swung depend

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Speaker 1: on it. What does that mean?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so I think I would want to start

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Speaker 2: with just acknowledging what you said. Uh. In fact, I

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Speaker 2: start the book with a quote from C. S. Lewis.

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Speaker 2: I'll paraphrase Lewis, but Lewis and screwtape letters. He's like

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Speaker 2: basically he says, listen, the enemy is equally pleased with

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Speaker 2: one of two options for the believer, you know, an

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Speaker 2: obsession with angels, demons, like the spiritual realm like this

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Speaker 2: overly upset, like they just see it around every corner.

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Speaker 2: Or the second one is a total neglect, like they

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Speaker 2: just are like oblivious to the reality of dark powers

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Speaker 2: and a real enemy that is, and so like like

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Speaker 2: in like Lewis is like Hey, it doesn't matter which

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Speaker 2: one you which can't be foll under. Both are going

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Speaker 2: to kind of accomplish the goal. And so really my

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Speaker 2: heart behind this book was to say, Hey, as the

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Speaker 2: people of God particularly, we really ought to be a

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Speaker 2: people who are away of the spiritual realities that are

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Speaker 2: around us and also not oblivious or not obsessive, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so like I kind of joke sometimes John, I'm like, Hey,

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Speaker 2: if you're a believer, you believe that Jesus, you know,

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Speaker 2: you know, is who he said he was. I would

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Speaker 2: love for somebody to identify one part of this next

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Speaker 2: statement that is not cosmic in nature. You know, that

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Speaker 2: we believe that Jesus is the actual son of God,

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Speaker 2: that he's one hundred percent God, one hundred percent man,

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Speaker 2: that he was born to a virgin, that he lived

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Speaker 2: a perfect life, that he conquered sin and death through

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Speaker 2: death itself, he rose again on the third day, hung

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Speaker 2: out with a bunch of people for forty days, and

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Speaker 2: then literally physically ascended to the right hand of the

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Speaker 2: Father and sits there today. Like, what part of that

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Speaker 2: is not cosmic would be?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 2: Like, what the whole thing that I think the very

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Speaker 2: foundation of what you and I believe as believers. Is

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Speaker 2: so why is it that we either over obsess about

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Speaker 2: things or I think tragically, for a lot of Christians,

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Speaker 2: they just ignore it, they demathologize it, they act like

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Speaker 2: none of that exists. And so that's kind of like

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Speaker 2: how I wanted to frame the conversation in the book,

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Speaker 2: and then I wanted to deal with kind of that

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Speaker 2: hyper obsessive nature of it. So how would I describe

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Speaker 2: or define spiritual warfare. I actually want to define it

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Speaker 2: and frame it in a household terminology, because that's what

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Speaker 2: the Bible does. The Bible frames God's people as a family.

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Speaker 2: God is a father and as a good father, he

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Speaker 2: wants his family to be together, and sin and a

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Speaker 2: real enemy divides that family. And so now you have

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Speaker 2: the family that's disconnected, they are being led astray, and

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Speaker 2: you have God's desire to get his family back together. So,

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Speaker 2: from a very simple but far from simplistic definition, this

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Speaker 2: is what spiritual warfare is. Spiritual warfare is the presence

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Speaker 2: of a conflict where God is a good father and

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Speaker 2: he desires to have his family back together. So the

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Speaker 2: reason why he chose the title of the Unseen Battle

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Speaker 2: is because every battle has a prize, and the question is,

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Speaker 2: like for spiritual warfare, like what is the prize of

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Speaker 2: the spiritual warfare of the battle of the cosmos, you know,

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Speaker 2: And the answer is the people. The people are the prize.

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Speaker 2: And so I think sometimes what happens is when we

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Speaker 2: over spiritualize and get obsessive about like power encounters and deliverance.

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Speaker 2: And I'm not even saying anything negative about deliverance ministry

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Speaker 2: or the realities of those things. I'm just saying when

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Speaker 2: we get obsessive about that, we tend to lose the people,

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Speaker 2: we tend to lose, Like what is God after? He's

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Speaker 2: after the return of his lost children to come back

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Speaker 2: into his family. And so, you know, I find it

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Speaker 2: fascinating that throughout all of Scripture we're never told to

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Speaker 2: like go head headlong, like like seek out a spiritual

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Speaker 2: warfare and just like and like, you know, go to

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Speaker 2: battle with the enemy. Like that's not the language of

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Speaker 2: Ephesian six. The language of Ephesian six is actually, hey,

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Speaker 2: it's gonna confind you. You don't have to seek it out.

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Speaker 2: This is the language of the enemy. He's he's he's waiting,

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Speaker 2: he's crouching, he wants to devour you. There's a patience

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Speaker 2: to it, and so it's almost like, hey, you don't

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Speaker 2: even really need to like try to like seek this

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Speaker 2: thing out. We need to reakin awareness of where of

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Speaker 2: where it is, how it's showing up. And there's the

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Speaker 2: overt areas that it shows up, and there's some really

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Speaker 2: covert areas that it shows up. And that's where I

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Speaker 2: think when you first reached out to me and we're

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Speaker 2: talking about this like in your book, and I was

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Speaker 2: like absolutely, I think addictions and alcoholism and pornography and

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Speaker 2: all of these things, these vices that have entrapped humanity,

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Speaker 2: all of these things are all part of spiritual warfare.

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Speaker 2: And the reason why is that some way it is

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Speaker 2: compromising human It is distracting us from the deliverance that

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Speaker 2: we can only experience from Jesus, the Son of God.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, it's like, what does enemy want

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Speaker 2: to do keep the family divided? And how he's going

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Speaker 2: to do it through a whole series of vices and

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Speaker 2: through systems and structures in our world to really blind

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Speaker 2: us from the truth of the Gospel.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so let me ask then a very practical question,

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Speaker 1: because so when we think about what you just said.

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Speaker 1: Is it like, man, there is a you know, there's

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Speaker 1: a demon in the corner of my room that's whispering

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Speaker 1: to me, Hey, look at porn. Hey take the drink.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, you know, kind of like the

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Speaker 1: demon on one shoulder the angel on the other. Like

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Speaker 1: when we talk about the enemy and we talk about

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Speaker 1: being that warfare, like, is it that tangible or what

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Speaker 1: does that look like?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a really great question. So one

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Speaker 2: of the things I want to do is like regain

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Speaker 2: theological terminology and understanding. I think a misunderstanding of spiritual

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Speaker 2: warfare is to have the belief system that this is

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Speaker 2: like the ancient Asian Chinese kind of idea of ying

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Speaker 2: and yang. You know, like you've got these equally powerful

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Speaker 2: but opposing powers and there's this like duality struggle that's happening.

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Speaker 2: That is not what the Bible talks about with spiritual warfare.

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Speaker 2: In the biblical context, spiritual warfare is a battle that's

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Speaker 2: already won. It's a battle that has been sealed and

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Speaker 2: won by Jesus on the cross, and there are skirmishes,

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Speaker 2: there is a real tension that is a play until

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Speaker 2: Christ comes again. And so that's like the first thing

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Speaker 2: is is we and I kind of talk about this

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Speaker 2: in an unseen battle. Our perspective of spiritual warfare today

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Speaker 2: has to be a perspective from the position of the cross,

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Speaker 2: so we look back onto everything that we're doing from

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Speaker 2: a place of victory, not a place of compromise. That's

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Speaker 2: kind of like the first perspective thing. And then the

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Speaker 2: second thing is demons are created beings. So there's a

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Speaker 2: little bit of angelology demonology idea. Yahweh is the uncreated creator,

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Speaker 2: and as the uncreated, uncreated creator, he's the one who

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Speaker 2: creates all things, and spiritual beings are part of his

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Speaker 2: created order, which means that He is supreme over all things.

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Speaker 2: And so, uh, there are things that are incommunicable that

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Speaker 2: are just absolutely unique of who God is, his omniscience,

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Speaker 2: his omnipresence, his his omnipotence, like like he's all knowing,

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Speaker 2: He's in all places at all times, he's all powerful.

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Speaker 2: These things are unique to Jesus or to God right

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Speaker 2: they are. They are not shared amongst spiritual beings. So

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Speaker 2: just think about this. Created beings are limited in time

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Speaker 2: and space. This is true for spiritual beings. Because they're

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Speaker 2: created beings. Now, is there a nuance in terms of

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Speaker 2: spiritual realm and how that works. Absolutely, But it doesn't

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Speaker 2: take away from the fact that they are that evil.

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Speaker 2: De entities are not omniscient, they're not all knowing, they're

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Speaker 2: not in all places at all times. You know, they're

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Speaker 2: not all powerful. Uh, and they have been around for

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Speaker 2: a really long time. Right. And So there's a couple

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Speaker 2: of TV shows that I think are fascinating. One is

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Speaker 2: about this guy who's like a behaviorist, like he like

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Speaker 2: watches people and it's kind of like this magic trick

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Speaker 2: that he does. But like the police end up like

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Speaker 2: hiring him to basically figure out crime things because he's

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Speaker 2: just such a great observer of people's behavior and their tactics.

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Speaker 2: And it comes to Yes, I love it. Like my

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Speaker 2: wife and I watch like every season of The Mentalists, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it got kind of scary like halfway through, like

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Speaker 2: there's some like really terrifying parts of it, you know,

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Speaker 2: but like I thought it was just so fascinating. Well,

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Speaker 2: guess what, as good as The Mentalist is in that show,

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Speaker 2: like the Dark Powers are like significantly more like better,

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Speaker 2: Like they're better why they've been around for so much

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Speaker 2: longer they've observing, they've been watching human tendencies, right, And

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Speaker 2: so this is like one of those things where it's like,

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Speaker 2: if dark powers are limited in time and space, that

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Speaker 2: means that they're going to have to learn how to

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Speaker 2: be the most efficient they can in this war. So

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Speaker 2: how do they become so efficient? Again, they use systems

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Speaker 2: and structures. There's a reason why the opiod addiction has

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Speaker 2: skyrocketed the way that it has. There's a reason why

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Speaker 2: pornography has skyrocketed the way that it has, human sex trafficking, right,

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Speaker 2: And I know a topic very near and dear to you, alcoholism.

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Speaker 2: There's a reason because these things scale at systematic, systemic levels,

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Speaker 2: and I truly believe that there are dark powers behind

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Speaker 2: it that are pushing these things forward. And so for

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Speaker 2: the believer, is it possible, Like, let's talk about probability.

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Speaker 2: Is it possible that there is a dark force, a

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Speaker 2: dark spirit that is oppressing you? Absolutely, it's possible. Is

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Speaker 2: that the most probable reality? I think that we just

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Speaker 2: have to use wisdom and discernment in the process of saying, Hey,

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Speaker 2: what are areas of my life that I've compromised because

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Speaker 2: of my own flesh, my own sinfulness. What are some

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Speaker 2: systems and structures that I have bought into? And you

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Speaker 2: could have the influence of dark powers in that they're

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Speaker 2: pushing alcohol, they're pushing over the counter medication, They're pushing idolatry,

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Speaker 2: you know, like your Instagram profile, dude, Like we're being

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Speaker 2: consumed the idea that we are not enough. Every day.

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Speaker 2: Every image, like every celebrity image that comes our way

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Speaker 2: is like, that's the goal, that's the ideal, that's the

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Speaker 2: way to power, that's the way to platform, that's the

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Speaker 2: way to joy and happiness. And if we think that

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Speaker 2: that's not spiritual warfare, like, that's part of the deception,

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Speaker 2: you know. And so I would say, yeah, is it possible, Sure,

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Speaker 2: is it probable. I don't think it's as probable as

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Speaker 2: so many of us think. And I think that there

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Speaker 2: is a responsibility that we have to take account for

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Speaker 2: our own selves and for our own an end. If

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Speaker 2: there is the presence of actual like demonic entities and encounters,

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Speaker 2: then yeah, the Bible has like a path like for

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Speaker 2: us to think about deliverance and to think about prayer

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Speaker 2: as a weapon, and the family of God, the community

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Speaker 2: of believers, and having elders pastors that come and pray

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Speaker 2: over you and anoint you with oil, and that, like,

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Speaker 2: there are things that we have to aid us and

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Speaker 2: to help us in these areas. I just think that

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Speaker 2: we have to be a bit more thoughtful in how

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Speaker 2: we approach it. And I think one of my fears

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Speaker 2: is sometimes we punt to oh it's the dark forces

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Speaker 2: versus like, nah, you're lazy. No, you probably need to

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Speaker 2: care about your health a little bit better and your

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Speaker 2: like physical, mental, spiritual health a little bit better, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean. And then there's other instances where

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Speaker 2: it's like, nah, man, there's something really scary. Like I

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Speaker 2: was just had a conversation with a friend ministry friend

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Speaker 2: of mine, and I'm like, now there's something like like

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Speaker 2: demonic that is associated with this thing, you know, And

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Speaker 2: so we got to commit this thing to prayer. We've

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Speaker 2: got to fasting, We've got to fast, you know. And

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Speaker 2: in my book, I actually unpacked the difference between possession

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Speaker 2: and oppression, and I actually changed my mind a little

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Speaker 2: bit on the language of it, based off of a

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Speaker 2: bunch of like historical, cultural and Greek work that's done

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Speaker 2: with the words. And so there's like a whole sidebar

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Speaker 2: and whole section that talks about that, And I really

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Speaker 2: think that will be very helpful for believers who have

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Speaker 2: always been like, hey, I've got the in dwelling holy

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Speaker 2: Spirit inside of me, Like you know, I can't be possessed,

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Speaker 2: I can only be oppressed. I would respond to that

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Speaker 2: being like, it's not quite as simple as a black

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Speaker 2: and white there's a little bit more nuanced in that,

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Speaker 2: and I unpack it in the book, and I think

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Speaker 2: it will be super helpful for people.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back after this. Okay, So you touched

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Speaker 1: on something that I wanted to ask about. So is

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Speaker 1: there a framework you know? And maybe it's not as

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Speaker 1: simple as a rubric, but how do we You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm going through kind of a tough season right now,

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Speaker 1: right where I'm like, Lord, I think you're leading me

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Speaker 1: this closed door. Lord, I thought you were leading me here,

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Speaker 1: closed door? What do I do?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: And So to your point, I feel there are plenty

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Speaker 1: of people be like, man, John, you're you're that's spiritual warfare, right,

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Speaker 1: And maybe I'm like, is that spiritual? How do I how.

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Speaker 2: Do we.

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Speaker 1: Figure out if a difficult season, a difficult thing is spiritual?

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Speaker 1: Warfare versus maybe some of the stuff you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: or maybe it's God being like, no, I'm just closing

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Speaker 1: doors because I want you to do something else. Right,

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Speaker 1: how do we make how do we figure that out?

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Speaker 1: Is there a way?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, First, Peter, I'm sorry. First, John four

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Speaker 2: talks about testing the spirits, you know, and I think

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Speaker 2: the reason why is because there's kind of fit spirits

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Speaker 2: that are that are out there, and so one of

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Speaker 2: the things that we're supposed to do, based off one

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Speaker 2: Peter four, is like we want to identify, like are

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Speaker 2: these things pointing us to the truth and supremacy of

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Speaker 2: Jesus or are they distracting us and taking away from

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Speaker 2: the truth and supremacy of Jesus. So, for instance, you

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Speaker 2: can go through really difficult seasons of life, right, and

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Speaker 2: at the end of it, you actually find yourself being

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Speaker 2: drawn closer to Christ. You're finding your dependence is going

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Speaker 2: is growing in Christ. So this could be spiritual warfare categorically,

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Speaker 2: but the kind of spiritual warfare it is would fall

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Speaker 2: underneath the umbrella of like like we live in a

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Speaker 2: fallen world where sin is real and and human struggle

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Speaker 2: is real. Right, So that's one category. Now there's a

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Speaker 2: different category, I would say spiritual warfare, which is demonically influenced.

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Speaker 2: And it's like I'm looking for things that are out

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Speaker 2: of the pattern, out of the pattern, and so it's

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Speaker 2: like there's like I can talk about a buddy of

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Speaker 2: mine and it's like getting ready to do a bunch

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Speaker 2: of ministry work. All of a sudden, out of nowhere,

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Speaker 2: he gets like ill, a different kind of illness, like

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Speaker 2: not like I got like the flu or I got COVID.

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Speaker 2: Like something was really wrong with his boy. And it's

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Speaker 2: smack in the middle of like four or five really

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Speaker 2: big ministry things that he was getting ready to do.

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Speaker 2: And that thing about is that JP yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, and so like and so there's some stuff

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Speaker 2: that's just happening, you know, that's in his life, and

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Speaker 2: like we're kind of having a conversation about it, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, man, that that that right there, to

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Speaker 2: me is like class classic textbook spiritual warfare. And so

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Speaker 2: like we got to pray for you, and I did

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Speaker 2: a post, you know, and I was like, hey, I

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Speaker 2: think that we should, like I believe in the power

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Speaker 2: of prayer. There's real enemy that's trying to stop him

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Speaker 2: from going to these college campuses. There's a real enemy

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Speaker 2: that doesn't want to see students get baptizers are real enemy.

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Speaker 2: So look at the things that are out of the

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Speaker 2: norm of like the everyday kind of deal, you know,

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Speaker 2: and then see about the pattern of that and the

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Speaker 2: persistence of it. And so if you see a pattern

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Speaker 2: that is growing and a persistence behind that kind of

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Speaker 2: oppressive nature to your body, to your spirituality, you know,

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Speaker 2: I had a thing that happened just a couple of

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Speaker 2: months ago, and it was the oddest thing. I would

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Speaker 2: refer to it as like the dark knight of the soul.

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Speaker 2: We had some family things that were going on, and

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Speaker 2: you know, I, for the first time in my life, John,

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Speaker 2: I had the thoughts like I don't know that I

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Speaker 2: want to do this anymore, you know, like and it's

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Speaker 2: it was, it was wild. It was like I don't

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Speaker 2: know that I want to be here. And then your

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Speaker 2: brain starts to go into these really dark places, right,

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Speaker 2: like maybe my family be better off without me. Right,

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Speaker 2: So I'd be like, oh, spiritual warfare, demonic, like a

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Speaker 2: demonic level of of of oppression, you know, And how

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Speaker 2: is that working? Is there a real demonic entity that's

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Speaker 2: feeding me thoughts and ideas. Is it, uh, the leverage

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Speaker 2: of that opportunity of this really hard thing that was

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Speaker 2: going on in my family, my life that brought this

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Speaker 2: up that the enemy is like encouraging. I think my

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Speaker 2: answer to that is just like yeah, like yeah, I

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Speaker 2: don't think we need to necessarily be like have to

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Speaker 2: figure out the mechanics of it. We need to address

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Speaker 2: and assess like it is spiritual warfare, and there is

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Speaker 2: a level of demonic influence and you know, Jesus even

428
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 2: talks about it with his disciples. There's certain things that

429
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 2: can only be dealt with through prayer and fasting, you know.

430
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,040
Speaker 2: And so it's like, Okay, we need to deploy the

431
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 2: tools that God has given us and never forget that

432
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 2: you have the exact same indwelling holy spirit that raise

433
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 2: Jesus from the grave. And so we have to be

434
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 2: a people who are constantly living not in self dependence,

435
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,360
Speaker 2: but in God dependence. And spiritual warfare I actually think

436
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 2: is directly intimately connected to sanctification. And sanctification is only

437
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: possible when we realize we cannot do this on our own,

438
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 2: like we can't. This is why Glacis. Chapter five uses

439
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: proximity language with the Holy Spirit, keeping ste up with

440
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 2: the spirit, walk with the spirit, be led by the

441
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 2: Spirit of God, like like, it doesn't matter what you

442
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 2: do to stay near the Spirit of God, you know.

443
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 2: But then this is first John four. This says, and

444
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 2: by the way, test all the spirits, because there's some

445
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 2: spirits out there the masquerade like the Spirit of God,

446
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,959
Speaker 2: and they have the power to deceive you, you know.

447
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 2: And so do the spirits proclaim Jesus his death, burial, resurrection,

448
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 2: and ascension. You know that these are the things that

449
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 2: we want to be discerning along the way. Uh, you

450
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 2: said something there that I'd love to hone in on

451
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 2: a little bit. Can you explain a little bit more

452
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 2: when you talk about the correlation between spiritual warfare and sanctification,

453
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 2: because I talk a lot about messy sanctification in my book, right,

454
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 2: Like I look at my story, right and there are

455
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: some people who are like, hey, yeah, you're a Christian now,

456
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 2: but you weren't before, because you know, Christians don't fall

457
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 2: into into sin like you did. But to your point

458
00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 2: of like, well, it's just just unpack that that spiritual

459
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 2: warfare in falling into certain things as part of sanctification. Yeah,

460
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: I think, you know, once again, I open up the

461
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 2: first section of The Unseen in Battle talking a lot

462
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: about Eden, and I think our anthropology, our study of

463
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 2: humanity often now I come from a little bit of

464
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 2: a reformed background, My theology is way more nuanced these days.

465
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,199
Speaker 2: But sometimes it's like, oh, your anthropology, your study of

466
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 2: humanity has to start with Genesis three in the Fall,

467
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 2: you know. I think that's a really bad place to

468
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 2: start our study of humanity, like, because that's not where

469
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 2: the Bible starts exactly. It starts in the ideal of Eden.

470
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 2: And so it's like we actually have to understand the

471
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 2: ideal of humanity before we can actually fully comprehend the

472
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 2: tragedy of the fall of humanity, you know. And the

473
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 2: story of Genesis three until Jesus comes to the incarnation

474
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,879
Speaker 2: is a story of how can this sanctification process begin

475
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: to take place to return us to the ideal of Eden,

476
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 2: you know. And so yeah, I would say sanctification is

477
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: fundamentally spiritual warfare, because where do we lose our humanity

478
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 2: in Eden? And who shows up the nakash a fiery serpent, right,

479
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: and the serpent suggests that we should trust human knowledge

480
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,640
Speaker 2: like the fullness of our own knowledge, and be disconnected

481
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 2: from the wisdom of God, you know, and so, and

482
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 2: that's what they do, and in doing so they their

483
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,719
Speaker 2: humanity breaks apart. And so sanctification is the process of

484
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: us regaining our true humanity. And now it's simplified it

485
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 2: this way. Sanctification comes with an aim and an ambition.

486
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 2: So our aim is Jesus, and our ambition is to

487
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: be like him. And where spiritual warfare steps in spiritual want.

488
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 2: Warfare wants us to have counterfeit aims and ambitions. The

489
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: enemy wants a counterfeit aim and ambition, you know. And

490
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: the the early theologians like you know, you think of

491
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,320
Speaker 2: John Calvin and Martin Luther that have a Latin phrase

492
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 2: called uh curvitus in say or in some things like that.

493
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 2: I'm blanking on the exact phrase right now. I'm tired.

494
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: I just got back from a flight yesterday.

495
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: Well, we'll give you a pass on the Latin.

496
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's basically the Latin phrase is has

497
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: to do with the heart being bent in on itself,

498
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: the heart being I think it's encurvedous and say is

499
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 2: what it is. It's the heart bent in on itself.

500
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 2: And so that is directly opposed to sanctification because if

501
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 2: sanctification is about my aim being Jesus and my ambition

502
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: to be like Jesus, then sinfulness and the enemy wants

503
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: to say, like, my aim is myself, and my ambition

504
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: is to be whatever the heck I want to be.

505
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: And if it's whatever I want to be, it's whatever

506
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 2: I want to be in the moment, you know. And

507
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 2: so when when we become the aim, you know, I

508
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 2: wrote about this in my first book, The Hidden Piece

509
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: on Humility. If we become the aim, then everybody else

510
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: around us becomes become pawns on a chessboard. The you

511
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: and I are totally willing to sacrifice if we have

512
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 2: our own needs that we need to have met. And

513
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 2: so yeah, I would frame sanctification as a process as

514
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: a as a byproduct of spiritual warfare, because the Lord

515
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: wants us to return to the ideal of Eden. Well,

516
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 2: what is the idea of Eden? It's to walk walk

517
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: with God. It's to grow in knowledge and wisdom, not

518
00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: of ourselves, but in the shadow of the Almighty, you know.

519
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: And so the aim is Jesus, because Jesus is the

520
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 2: visible expression of our true humanity. The ambitionous to be

521
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: like Jesus. Is what does Jesus want us to do

522
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:24,719
Speaker 2: to shiming them out? The attitudes, you know, like totally

523
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: opposed to the ways of the world, which is, by

524
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 2: the way, spiritual warfare. You know, those are the poor, blessed,

525
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 2: the meek, blessed, those who suffered, blessed, those who are persecuted.

526
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: Like if you think about that, like this actually expands

527
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 2: our understanding of spiritual warfare, where often we just relegated

528
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 2: to like demonic activity like and again I'm not saying

529
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: that those things don't happen. I'm just saying that the

530
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 2: enemy is much more complicated than we give them credit

531
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: for sometimes. And the complication is, like the enemy doesn't

532
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: want you to buy into the idea that humility is

533
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: the path to inherit the earth that God has given us.

534
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 2: Notice that enemy, that enemy wants us to think you

535
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: take it by power, Yes, you take it by influence.

536
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: Look at Jesus on the stam of the mountain, blessed,

537
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: the meek, blessed, or the humble. Why because they will

538
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 2: inherit the earth right. And so again it's like, I

539
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: think this is why I'm really passionate about this topic

540
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 2: in this book. It's because I think it's going to

541
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: hopefully reframe this conversation in a way that will help

542
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 2: us make sense of the battle that's actually being waged

543
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 2: right in front of our eyes. So sometimes we just

544
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 2: don't even have the eyes to see because we have

545
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: been taught or we presume that spiritual warfare can only

546
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: look like this, like this certain way, and I want

547
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: to like kind of expand that a bit and put

548
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 2: the focus back where God puts the focus, and the

549
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: focus is his people, his image bearers being brought into wholeness.

550
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: And I think, like, what makes a human hole a

551
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: human as whole when they are emotionally right, when they're

552
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: physically right, and when they're spiritually right. It is three

553
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: parts to a human and spiritual warfare works itself all

554
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 2: out in three in all three areas, in emotional health,

555
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: in physical health, and in spiritual health.

556
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: So you know, I talk about my first book on

557
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: faith and mental health. You know that that there's three

558
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: legs to the stool, brain, body, and spirit And I

559
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 1: think that's what you're talking about, right, But I think

560
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: what's where you're advancing it, which I really like, is

561
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 1: that it's not that brain is cordoned off and body

562
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 1: is cordoned off and spirit is like it is, it

563
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: affects everything, right, and so even at the heart of

564
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: the brain and the body, if you will, is the spirit.

565
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: And man, I'm gonna, I'm just I'm just admitting that

566
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: right now, I'm totally using the aim and ambition thing.

567
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: I will credit you as much as possible. But you

568
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 1: know that is so good because in as I talk

569
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: about gospel centered recovery, right, I say aim for Jesus

570
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: and get sobriety thrown in right now. Too many people

571
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: make the aim just sobriety. If the aim is just sobriety,

572
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: then like you said, I mean, it's all off right. Sure,

573
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: maybe you're not drinking, but everything else is off still,

574
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: you know.

575
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's a going John, because it's like,

576
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 2: if the aim is sobriety, then we're gonna be once

577
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: again deceived into thinking that there might be counterfeit helpers

578
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: to get us to that sobriety. My own willpower, right,

579
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 2: the cutability groups like you know, and you know, like

580
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 2: what I've learned after all these years of ministry, of

581
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: being exposed to pornography at a really young age, like like, like,

582
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: here's what I've learned. If I want to lie, I'm

583
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: gonna lie. If I want to hide, I'm gonna hide.

584
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: If I'm going to find a reason to be deceptive

585
00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: with my wife, I'm gonna I'm gonna find that reason.

586
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: What I need is Jesus. I need Jesus to re

587
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: aim my ambitions of my heart. Otherwise I will always

588
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 2: look for counterfeit helpers, you know. And so I really

589
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: love what you said, Like sobriety is so good, but

590
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 2: it's not the ultimate aim. The ultimate aim is Jesus.

591
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: And on the way he's going to give you the sobriety,

592
00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 2: he's going to give you the the wholeness, he's going

593
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 2: to give you like all of those things. But it's like, man,

594
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 2: we're being it's it's but it's the tactic of the garden.

595
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 2: Get the knowledge without without God, Yes.

596
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 1: Right, And I think, uh, you'll know the reference too,

597
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: But I I love it. Maybe it's in Corinthians where

598
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: it just talks about, you know, in the last days

599
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: that people just be searching for knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, knowledge, right,

600
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 1: and and and they miss the point basically, yep, right, yep.

601
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: I want to turn it now a little bit more

602
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: towards specifically addiction. You know, when when I first approached

603
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: you about this, right, You're like, man, I would love

604
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 1: to talk about how addiction plays into spiritual warfare, and

605
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: you touched on it a little bit. I would love

606
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 1: to have you unpack that a little bit more. You

607
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 1: talk about the systems and whatnot, but when it comes

608
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: to you know, uh, how do you see spiritual warfare

609
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: intersecting with addictions? Not just in the life of the

610
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: non believer, but for people like me? And what I'm

611
00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: hearing from so many people since the book came out

612
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: is is there's way more people than we realize. Who

613
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 1: are people who love Jesus, who follow Jesus, who submit

614
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: to Jesus in many aspects of their life, and yet

615
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 1: still struggle with addictions. So how do those two things intersect?

616
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:19,360
Speaker 1: Virtual warfa an addiction?

617
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think one of the big ones is just

618
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 2: like what do we actually believe about Jesus? You know, like,

619
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: what do we actually believe about Jesus? And I've often

620
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: said John a theology that is unlivable is unhelpful, And

621
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 2: I'm really worried that a lot of people, pastors, theologian

622
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 2: scholars have been peddling a kind of theology that is unlivable.

623
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: It lives really nice thirty thousand feet in the air,

624
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 2: you know, it preaches really well for viral TikTok reels

625
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: and instagram and reels. And then you be like, what

626
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 2: does that mean? Right? Like one of my favorites is like,

627
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 2: every step back is every set back is a step back.

628
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: That's a set up, a get up to come back.

629
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: I'm like, bro, what are you even saying? Yes, not

630
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 2: know what you mean? Like that setback it's destroying me

631
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: right now? Yes, I'm not. And guess what, there might

632
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: not ever be a step up. That just might be

633
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 2: my lived reality. So in that moment, if I'm peddling

634
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 2: to people that every op is an opportunity for greatness

635
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: and success in your life, I'm like, well, is that

636
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 2: like the lived experience of Jesus because Jesus went to

637
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: the cross, you know not? Yeah, did Jesus rise again

638
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: from that? Absolutely? But guess what that's the promise for us?

639
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 2: Guess where we have to go through death? The path

640
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 2: like the pathway for us to inherit promises that yaw,

641
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: it gives is death. Now some of us, you know,

642
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 2: Lord Willing, who knows he comes back and we don't

643
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 2: have to experience the first death. Great, but like the

644
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 2: vast majority of us are gonna have to walk through that,

645
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: you know. And it's like, yeah, I would say the

646
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: addiction piece. So why I think this is so intimately

647
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 2: connected to spiritual warfare is I think that there are

648
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: things in our world that are neutral. So what do

649
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 2: I mean by that? And we might have a difference

650
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 2: of opinion here, John, And so if we feel free

651
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: to push back on anything that I say, you know,

652
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 2: I look at something like food, I look at something

653
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:29,320
Speaker 2: like exercise, I look at something like alcohol, and I go, Okay,

654
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 2: these are in and of themselves neutral. Things in the

655
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: hands of unhealthy people can become absolutely destructive, and anything

656
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: can become addictive. Right. I am watching more and more

657
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 2: people in general, and just friends honestly, that have gone

658
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: through infidelity and the possibility of divorce because one of

659
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,720
Speaker 2: the spouses ended up getting super connected to like physical

660
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: fitness and going to the gym and doing this other

661
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 2: stuff and in the process meet somebody else there finds

662
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: community and then guess what a full blown affair, you know.

663
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 2: And the pathway was like an addiction to like my body,

664
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 2: what does it look like? Is it good? Is it?

665
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: And then it's like my addiction to being wanted. It's like, oh,

666
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: I've got this community here and they just love me

667
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: and they accept me for myself. And and and notice

668
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 2: like it actually in the end like destroys families. It

669
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 2: destroys people. And so I think of a passage like

670
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 2: one Peter five to eight, where you know, Peter says,

671
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 2: be alert and a sober mind. Right, sobriety your enemy,

672
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for

673
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,279
Speaker 2: someone to devour. Right, So notice the next phrases resist him.

674
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: It doesn't say seek him. It's not saying fin where he's,

675
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 2: where his hunting grounds are. The text resumes that the

676
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 2: enemy is already out there. So our goal isn't to find.

677
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 2: Our goal is resisting the reality of this. So resist him,

678
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 2: standing firm in the faith because and look at this,

679
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 2: because you know that the family, look at the familiar language.

680
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: You know that the family of believers throughout the world

681
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: is undergoing the same kind of suffering. So in the

682
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: one end, I would just say, like, hey, there's a

683
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 2: there's a beauty of understanding that you're not alone. Yeah,

684
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 2: you know. And I think that's one of the great

685
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,399
Speaker 2: benefits of your book, John, is like there's so many

686
00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 2: people that are like, wait, I'm not alone. I'm not

687
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 2: the only one. I'm not the only one who's like

688
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: a Christian who loves Jesus, who goes to church, who

689
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 2: does the Morning Bible, say, does you know it does

690
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 2: all this stuff? And and yet I've got hidden bottles

691
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: of alcohol, and yet I've got an addiction to testosterone injections.

692
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 2: Yet I'm on pads. Yet I'm I can't stop eating.

693
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 2: I just keep stuffing my face with the food because

694
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,040
Speaker 2: it's the only comfort that I get. You see what

695
00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 2: I'm saying, Like like, also, it's like, oh, wait, I'm

696
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 2: not alone. So that's what the Texas saying. But then

697
00:38:49,520 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 2: look how it presumes how do we deal with this

698
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 2: be alert and be of sober mind. So a little

699
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,919
Speaker 2: bit of nerdy stuff. The Greek word for sober mind

700
00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 2: is nefo, and so in the ancient world, as soon

701
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 2: as the people heard this, they would have thought the

702
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: antithesis of sober minded, like what is the opposite of

703
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 2: sober minded in the Greco Roman world? And that word

704
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: is mytheo, and mytheo was a very specific kind of

705
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,880
Speaker 2: idea and word that was used in the time of Paul,

706
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 2: particularly in the temples of the false gods of the

707
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 2: world of the nation. So think Temple of Artemis, Temple

708
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 2: of Zeus, the Oracle of Delphi, like all these places.

709
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,760
Speaker 2: And then the idea was, in order to know the deity,

710
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,359
Speaker 2: in order to know the divine, you actually had to

711
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: compromise your brain. You had to compromise your mind, so

712
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 2: you would matheo, you would you would take on uh,

713
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,720
Speaker 2: you would take a hallucinative drug to compromise your mental

714
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,919
Speaker 2: faculties so that you could experience the divine. Right, look

715
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 2: at the toll. You can look at this in Firstpeter

716
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 2: five Bau. It's like, be alert and be of sober mind,

717
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 2: don't be intoxicated, don't buy into the ways. And here's why,

718
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: because the enemy is probling. So if you are intoxicated

719
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: and you've lost mental faculties and you can't discern Peter

720
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,359
Speaker 2: for John, that the spirits anymore, you can get caught

721
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 2: up because enemies they're waiting for you. And so the

722
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 2: result of that is like, and I love this about

723
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 2: yahweh about God. He's like, I don't want you intoxicated,

724
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 2: Like I don't want you compromised. I want you fully aware.

725
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: Like that's the kind of relationship I want with you.

726
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 2: I want you fully engaged. I want I want you

727
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 2: to perform and to be who have always intended for

728
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 2: you to be in I Midgebearer of God. And so

729
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 2: I would say, like, addiction is so difficult because what

730
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,280
Speaker 2: addiction does is that, I think in different categories. Ultimately,

731
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 2: it's promising you some form of satisfaction, some form of control,

732
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 2: some form of rescue, you know, but that rescue is

733
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: dependent on you doing a thing, and that thing is

734
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: actually sending you into a free fall. Like you're actually

735
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 2: losing all the things that it's promising you. You're losing control,

736
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 2: you're losing that sense of security. You're like you're losing

737
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,919
Speaker 2: all those things. But it's like I gotta have another drink,

738
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: I gotta eat another burger, I gotta you know, hit

739
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 2: the gym like like another five times in two days.

740
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,880
Speaker 2: Like it's like, well, no, you're you're actually like losing yourself.

741
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 2: You're actually intoxicating yourself with these other things, you know.

742
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,399
Speaker 2: And and again, I just want to expand it. It's

743
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: not just alcohol, though alcohol is a big one. It's

744
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 2: so many things. It's it's your obsession with work. Man,

745
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 2: you can't turn off your phone, dog like, like, bro,

746
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: put your phone in the other room. I've done this

747
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 2: the last So one of the first things I did

748
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 2: was I got rid of an iPhone, I watch Apple Watch.

749
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 2: I got rid of that, and my anxiety decreased by.

750
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: Like same, I got rid of my Apple Watch.

751
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm like analog. Right. The only thing I've

752
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 2: got now is I've got this Garman for like walking

753
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,360
Speaker 2: and running, like a fitness watch. But it's disconnected, Like

754
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 2: it doesn't even connec to my phone, Like it's just disconnected,

755
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 2: you know. And it's like, Oh, I realized I was addicted.

756
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 2: I was addicted to performance. I was addicted to what

757
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 2: if I missed out on information? I was like, is

758
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: that creating inside of me any kind of peace? Nah,

759
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: it's not, you know. So and again, this is all

760
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:21,440
Speaker 2: spiritual warfare, because if you're so consumed in that, how

761
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:25,239
Speaker 2: can you ever be an active, healthy participant in the

762
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: family of God, not let alone your own family.

763
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:34,279
Speaker 1: You know, we'll be right back after this, Okay. So

764
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm anticipating someone listening to this and saying, okay, yeah,

765
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 1: all right, you're saying that, you know, if I'm getting

766
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: drunk or whatnot. But Joel, John, like, I'm still like

767
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: things are okay, Like I'm not experiencing these dark nights

768
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 1: of the soul that you guys are talking about. I'm

769
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: not experiencing oppression, like like you know, I've tested it,

770
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:04,200
Speaker 1: and it seems like, you know, even though I'm getting drunk,

771
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: like things are, things are fine, Things are okay. Like

772
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 1: how do you respond to someone like that?

773
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: I would say, you don't know what you don't know? Yeah,

774
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 2: you don't want I turned forty this year, John, When

775
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 2: I was twenty in my twenties, I never, mind wildest dreams,

776
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: thought that I would experience something that I experienced just

777
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 2: never and what that has done for me has created

778
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 2: a sense of compassion and empathy and also honesty of saying,

779
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: if the Lord gives me another thirty years, I might

780
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 2: experience that again. So what do I need? I need

781
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,560
Speaker 2: dependence on God, I need to be in the presence

782
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:40,960
Speaker 2: of His people. I need to be led by by

783
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 2: His spirit. And so for the person who's like, well,

784
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 2: I'm not, and it's like I'll just be like, man,

785
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 2: be real careful, be real careful with that perspective of

786
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: the mentality, because it's in that place often that I've

787
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:56,680
Speaker 2: seen we're compromises kind of waiting for you, you know, because

788
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 2: look look at what Verse says, be alert, be aware.

789
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 2: You know the kids say it would be like keep

790
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:08,359
Speaker 2: your head on a swivel, like man, it something can

791
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,200
Speaker 2: go sideways really quick. And I would pray, honestly, my

792
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 2: prayers you never have to deal with that, That's my prayer.

793
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 2: Like my prayers, like you never have deal with drug

794
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:18,000
Speaker 2: on the soul. You never have deal with the reality

795
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: of addictions. You never have to go through, you know,

796
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 2: I'm sure John, that's what you would say, Like you

797
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: would you would hope that your book is preventive, right,

798
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 2: like it would have wake some people up to the right.

799
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: That's the best testimony that you could have. And guess

800
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:36,319
Speaker 2: what the best testimonies I wrote this At some point

801
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:39,320
Speaker 2: you know, you can start in the power of the spirit,

802
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that you won't end in the

803
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: vice scripts of the flesh, and that doesn't mean that

804
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: you have to lose your salvation. I'm not even talking

805
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: about the loss of your salvation. I'm just talking about

806
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 2: your efficiency and how effective Yard ministry. You know, how

807
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 2: effective Yard as a parent, as a mom, as a dad,

808
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 2: as a son, as a daughter. Like why would you

809
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:57,600
Speaker 2: want to compromise that?

810
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 1: You know, I it's not just me, but several people

811
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: that as I talk to them about what happens when

812
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: they give up alcohol is like I describe it personally

813
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: as like taking a limitless pill. You know that old Bradley.

814
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 1: It's like, oh my god, I didn't realize that I

815
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: was operating with one hand time behind my back. Then

816
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: I stopped. And so to your point, I didn't know

817
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: what I didn't know. I didn't know that there was

818
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: actually something greater, even just on a very practical level,

819
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 1: not even talking about the spiritual level. The spiritual level

820
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: that I've been able to enter into is just like

821
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,000
Speaker 1: blows my mind right. And to your point as well,

822
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: of like you know, I think about like we lost

823
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:47,719
Speaker 1: someone recently to cancer, and what he didn't know is

824
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: that that cancer was raging in his body for years

825
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 1: and by the time they caught it, by the time

826
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 1: that it was surfaced, it was too late. I mean

827
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: he lived for a few months, right, And I think first,

828
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 1: for a lot of us, we have that, you know,

829
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: cancer that's raging in us, and you're like, well, I'm good,

830
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 1: right until it shows up and it's not, and you're like,

831
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: holy crap.

832
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 2: Right.

833
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:17,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, As we kind of come to the end here,

834
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 1: I want to ask what I think is you know,

835
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: the important question. I mean, they're all important questions, but Okay,

836
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: I realize someone listening to us realizes, you know, they've

837
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: they've grasped everything you've said, spiritual warfare and whatnot. I

838
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 1: think the question is, so what do we do about it? Right?

839
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 1: And then, especially as it relates to addictions, So what

840
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: do we do about it?

841
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean I don't think I'm gonna say anything

842
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 2: new or novel or groundbreaking. There's a thought that I've

843
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 2: that I've had for a while now, and I just

844
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:52,280
Speaker 2: kind of live by it. Honesty and humility go together,

845
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: but so do pride and insanity, you know, And so

846
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: I would say, like honest and humility can only live

847
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,959
Speaker 2: out in the open, and so like there is there,

848
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 2: like like Jesus doesn't stutter. The Old Testament prophets are

849
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: not stuttering. The New Testament apotic disciples are not stuttering.

850
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 2: Repent of your sin, confess it, and return to Jesus

851
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: like like a walk with him. And so it's like,

852
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 2: what do you do. I think you gotta acknowledge it,

853
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,399
Speaker 2: You gotta you gotta become aware of it. It's there's

854
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 2: a difference between awareness and acceptance. You can be aware

855
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: of something and still not accept it. It's true guilty. Yeah,

856
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 2: And so it's like you become aware of it, this

857
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,160
Speaker 2: might be your awareness, then you have to accept it

858
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 2: and say, okay, like this has compromised me in significant ways.

859
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 2: And now you've got to apply and like step into

860
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 2: the new humanity, which is going to be unique for

861
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 2: each individual person. But in some form it's gonna have

862
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: to deal with confession, with exposing the level of your

863
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 2: sin that you've got going on. And uh, it is

864
00:47:56,840 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 2: behavior change, but it's behavior change that is motive by

865
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 2: heart affection. Right again, I was in this podcast in

866
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 2: Dallas and one of the pastors just said, like, how

867
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 2: do you fight how do you fight sin? You fight

868
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: sin with love like grow in love for Jesus like

869
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: you like, and that's what it is, like, what do

870
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 2: you You got to grow in your love for Jesus

871
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:21,919
Speaker 2: because you don't want to hurt the person that you love,

872
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 2: you know, And that's what I would say.

873
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: I think it's that you know you talk about and

874
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: I and I go through this a little bit in

875
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: the book, but the mortification of sin and the vividacation

876
00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 1: killing and then the filling right and even that verse

877
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 1: that says do not get junk on wine, what does

878
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:43,920
Speaker 1: it say after that? But be filled with the spirit. Right.

879
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: It doesn't just end at stopping don't get drunk with wine.

880
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 1: That's it, right, It's like you have to aim for

881
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: something greater because and and you know that verse that

882
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,880
Speaker 1: talks about the spirits lead that the spirit leaving and

883
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: then seven more come right, it's like you you got

884
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: to fill that space right with something. So I really

885
00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 1: I really appreciate and I did geek out a little bit. Man.

886
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: I love a good Greek word study, brother, like it

887
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,760
Speaker 1: just it does something for me. And with the last

888
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: two minutes, I want to ask you this, this is

889
00:49:17,920 --> 00:49:21,319
Speaker 1: a kind of a nerdy question too. Is one of

890
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: the things that I appreciated about going through seminary was

891
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: using the LSB version of the Bible, which uses the

892
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: Yahweh is the name of God. And I have noticed

893
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: throughout this that you have used Yahweh. And I'm curious

894
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 1: why because I think for me replacing Yahweh with Lord

895
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,840
Speaker 1: or modern translations a lot of times use Lord for

896
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: Yahweh capital Lord. But it really brought the Bible alive

897
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 1: to me in a new way by using Yahweh. I'm

898
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 1: curious your use of the word Yahweh.

899
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. So when I was learning Hebrew in seminary and

900
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,840
Speaker 2: through some doctoral work, we were not allowed when Yahweh

901
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: came up in the in the Hebrew Bible to say

902
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,440
Speaker 2: the word Yahweh, we would have to use an alternative.

903
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,839
Speaker 2: I don't and I or you know, aloheim, something else.

904
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 2: And the reason why is because the ancient Israelites had

905
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 2: this deep level of reverence and respect for the intimate

906
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 2: name of God as it was disclosed. And then as

907
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 2: read throughout the New Testament, I realized, like, oh, the

908
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 2: intimacy of the name is actually self disclosed in the

909
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:33,520
Speaker 2: New Testament in Christ Jesus. So the Greek phrase that's

910
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 2: used for Jesus as Lord curios. Well, the very nerdy

911
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 2: language stuff, that's the exact word that's used, the subtuagent

912
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 2: of yahweh. So the intimate name of God in the

913
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 2: Old Testament is disclosed in the New Testament through Jesus,

914
00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 2: who is the intimate presence of God. And so when

915
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 2: I use it now, it's actually an affirmation that God

916
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 2: has always wanted to disclose his personal presence. He's never

917
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,320
Speaker 2: wanted to be some far off deity that's disconnected from humanity.

918
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,319
Speaker 2: He's always wanted to be known as a father, and

919
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 2: so his self disclosure of that. It's almost like my

920
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: way of in my own brain of saying when I'm thinking,

921
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 2: when I'm saying yahweh in context of the Old Testament,

922
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 2: I always have to keep Jesus in mind, because Jesus

923
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 2: is the full disclosure of the presence of intimacy of

924
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 2: God in the New Testament.

925
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: Oh I love that. I love that. Thank you for

926
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 1: that little, that little nerd moment, Joel. If people want

927
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: to get the book, if they want to follow you

928
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 1: on substack, which please follow Joel on stack substack. It

929
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: is something I look forward to every time I'm like,

930
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: please publish more. It's not like you don't have a

931
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: lot going on. If they want to follow you, if

932
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 1: they want to get the book, where can they go. Yeah,

933
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 1: So the book is available on Amazon. I think it's

934
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,200
Speaker 1: even discount of right now for preorder. So it releases

935
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: January twenty seventh, but you can grab it and get

936
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 1: all the pre order incentives and all that kind of stuff.

937
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: You can follow me on substant Act. The substack is

938
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 1: Humble Theology is the name of the Substack, and John,

939
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: we're launching a brand new Substack publication, uh, which is

940
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:13,520
Speaker 1: pretty exciting, and it is called Stranger Theology. And so

941
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 1: it's with my friends the Blurry Creatures guys. They do

942
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: a podcast called Blurry Creatures and it's all about like

943
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: the stranger parts of the Bible from a theological kind

944
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 1: of lens and perspective. And we've got kind of a

945
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,120
Speaker 1: team of theological writers, like I call them my the

946
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 1: Theology Avengers team, you know. And so pulled together a

947
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 1: couple of people that are gonna be regular contributors. And

948
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:37,080
Speaker 1: then season one is part of like the Premium podcast

949
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: is a podcast series on the Cosmic Mountain and so

950
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 1: we're gonna go through kind of the Mountain motif throughout

951
00:52:44,840 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: the scriptures, and so humble theology for my stuff, stranger

952
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: theology for all the supernatural realm spiritual warfare stuff, and

953
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: then my book The Unseen Battle is available on wherever

954
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 1: books are sold, but you probably will get the best

955
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: deal on Amazon. Awesome, Joel, thank you so much for

956
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 1: spending the time with us. Well, we're gonna have to

957
00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: have you on again because you're gonna continue writing and

958
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: you're gonna continue doing some great stuff and I can't

959
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: wait to talk to you again.

960
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,240
Speaker 2: Thanks, John, appreciate you.

961
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 1: You know, usually I try to pick out like one

962
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 1: thing to highlight at the end here that I really like.

963
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: That's hard for me because I think there's so much.

964
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: And if you're watching the version of this podcast at

965
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 1: the Veritas Daily, I think you'll see my fist pumps,

966
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: You'll see my points, you'll see my smiles, You'll see

967
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: me mouthing the word yes, yes, yes, because so much

968
00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: of what Joel said there is so applicable and so helpful.

969
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: And you know, I, like I said, I'm a sucker

970
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: for a good Greek word study, and so what he

971
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 1: talked about even just at the very end there about yahweh,

972
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:54,200
Speaker 1: but that that term, the use of the word that's

973
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: opposite of sober minded. And man, I just I think

974
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:04,279
Speaker 1: about so many of the times that I just I

975
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 1: wanted to escape and from the difficulties and listen, man,

976
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,360
Speaker 1: can I be honest with you. I had a conversation

977
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: with my wife yesterday where I'm like, you know what

978
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,279
Speaker 1: my flesh wants to do right now. My flesh wants

979
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,760
Speaker 1: to escape, and it wants to use a substance to escape.

980
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: And I just had to say that, I had to

981
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,319
Speaker 1: speak that and name that. My wife's not like, dare you,

982
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,000
Speaker 1: She's like, I get it. I get it, and so

983
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: let's do this instead, right, And because in those moments

984
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: where we escape and quote unquote turn our minds off,

985
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: I just think we are so susceptible to the lies

986
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 1: of the enemy. We are so susceptible to the lies

987
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 1: of the enemy and what he wants us to believe

988
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 1: versus the truth that Jesus has offered us. If anything

989
00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: in this podcast encouraged you, just twenty seconds, if you

990
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,919
Speaker 1: would do me a favor, if you would share it

991
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: with someone, they don't have to be someone that struggles

992
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: with addiction. I try to make even even when we

993
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: talk about addiction, I think, try to make these podcasts

994
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,759
Speaker 1: applicable to people in many walks of life, and so

995
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: I think this one is definitely one of those right

996
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: where it's not just about those who struggle with addiction,

997
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: and especially not just people who struggle with addiction to

998
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: a substance. But as Joel was talking about exercise, food,

999
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:28,040
Speaker 1: your phone, pornography, work, it's all applicable. Love you all

1000
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: so much. Remember to go visit our partner life audio

1001
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: lifeaudio dot com where you can listen to other great,

1002
00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:39,879
Speaker 1: great podcasts like this one. Love you, Appreciate you. We'll

1003
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:40,919
Speaker 1: see you next week.