1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 2: He called to make a difference in mental health. 10 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: Columbia International University offers graduate counseling degrees that combine professional 11 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 1: excellence with Biblical truth from associates. Through doctoral program, CiU 12 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: prepares you to bring healing and wholeness to others through 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: a biblically based framework of compassion and care. Whether it's 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: their k CREP accredited Masters in Clinical Counseling or their 15 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: PhD in counselor Education and Supervision, You'll learn from experience 16 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: faculty who integrate faith with real world application to cultivate 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: a Kingdom impact through disciples who counsel, teach, and train. 18 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,720 Speaker 1: Whether you're starting your journey or advancing your career, CiU's 19 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 1: counseling programs equip you to serve others both professionally and spiritually. 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: Visit CiU dot edu. 21 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: To learn more about making a difference in mental health 22 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: through christ centered education. 23 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 2: That's CiU dot edu. 24 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian and 25 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:25,880 Speaker 1: doctor James Spencer and I'm joined by doctor Ben Matthew. 26 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 1: He is a professor of counselor education at Columbia International University, 27 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: and we're going to be continuing our conversation about faith 28 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: and culture. I'm sorry, not faith and culture, faith and 29 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 1: mental health. It is sort of a cultural conversation, I suppose, 30 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: so I won't count that as a complete and total biff. 31 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: But today we're going to be thinking about the issue 32 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: of sadness and how it's a rational or maybe even 33 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: a theological response. But I think probably the best place 34 00:01:54,880 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 1: to start with this is to differentiate a little bit, 35 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: like what's the difference between just feeling blue occasionally and 36 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 1: actually being depressed? Like, are there are there sign posts 37 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: that people should be watching for where they would say, 38 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: I'm not sad, I actually might need some help here. 39 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think there are some helpful ways of 40 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: looking for indicators right, yeah, warning signs of sorts. My 41 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 3: wife has a newer car, so she's at all these 42 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 3: bells and whistles. But my car, I think, is twenty 43 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 3: three twenty four years old right now, and it's still running, 44 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 3: so I can't, in good justification get rid of it, 45 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: even though, and every once in a while these little 46 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 3: warning lights come on to let me know, really, you know, 47 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 3: this car is two decades old. For the most part, 48 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 3: they're not really serious, but every once in a while, 49 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 3: a more serious red light engine break like something red 50 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 3: comes on. It would be a foolish of me to, 51 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 3: you know, pull a hammer from my back sat knock 52 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 3: the you know, dash light out, and say, oh, look 53 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:09,679 Speaker 3: I fixed it. No, not really, because the indicator is 54 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 3: actually not the problem. The indicator is an indicator of 55 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: something underneath the hood that's really going on. The sadness depression. 56 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 3: You know. Some of the things that we're talking about 57 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 3: here are indicators, and it's important, especially in our I 58 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 3: think in our Western context, sometimes we just want to 59 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 3: get rid of the indicators altogether. We think sadness means something, 60 00:03:33,520 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 3: that sadness needs to be removed, and I would argue 61 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 3: that that's missing the opportunity. That's punching out the light 62 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 3: without actually dealing with what's underlying it. Because sadness is 63 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 3: an indicator that life is not going the way it should. Now, 64 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 3: whether that's a right response or not, we can get 65 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 3: into that. And sadness generally is that initial response to 66 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 3: perceived wrong in justice, personal preferences not being aligned to 67 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: the ways that I should. The question becomes when does 68 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: it become clinically significant? Within a clinical lens, we look 69 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 3: at things like duration, is this just in terms of 70 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 3: the moment? Listen, having a bad day. We all have 71 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:21,440 Speaker 3: a bad day. We all know what that feels like. 72 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,239 Speaker 3: Sometimes that it may extend even to a weekend where 73 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 3: the situation just continues to be like a cloud hovering 74 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: over you. But more often than not, when that situation 75 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 3: has kind of gone, is no longer ap pressing reality, 76 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 3: but the indicators of sadness continue to persist generally over 77 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 3: a couple of weeks. That for me is a red flag. 78 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 3: That's another indicator. I'm like, okay, it's not just situational. 79 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 3: It's tending to hover. And then I start asking questions 80 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 3: of my clients like what is this doing in terms 81 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 3: of your relationships. What is this doing in terms of 82 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 3: your work? What is this doing in terms of your sleep? 83 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 3: What is this doing in terms of your appetite. I'm 84 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 3: looking for consistency across life that it's not just I 85 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 3: hate work, but everywhere else is great. Well, I can 86 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 3: kind of tell you the problems probably work there needs 87 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 3: to change. But if a client tells me I'm really 88 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: struggling at performing at work, my grades are really struggling. 89 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 3: If I'm a student, I'm lashing out at my loved ones, 90 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 3: my sleep is really bad. Like when I start seeing 91 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 3: a prevalence of problems across life, that's another indicator that 92 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 3: we're moving away from just situational sadness or relational sadness 93 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 3: to something that's a little more clinically significant, that is 94 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 3: not necessarily connected to a situation or relationship. It's at 95 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 3: that point where I start asking the questions whether or 96 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: not it's starting to affect thoughts and affections and behaviors 97 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 3: towards things like suicide and suicidal ideation. Have you thought 98 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 3: about hurting yourself in a way that would end that's suffering? 99 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,920 Speaker 3: That's at that point we start recognizing there's a shift 100 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 3: now it's not just normal sadness. We're starting to get 101 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 3: into areas where an individual is having persistent negative reactions 102 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 3: without much explanation, and it's negatively affecting life towards the 103 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: development of solutions. I'm using air quotes here for those 104 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 3: of you that can't see it, like suicide, that is 105 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 3: really not a solution, but for those in the moment 106 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 3: of depression, it feels like the only thing they can do. 107 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,280 Speaker 1: So when we think about these indicators, a question came 108 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,239 Speaker 1: up when we didn't talk about this one before the podcast, 109 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: So it'll be a little bit of a curve ball, but. 110 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: I'm sure you can handle it. 111 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned you know, sadness is an indicator, 112 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:48,919 Speaker 1: and it's sort of one of the primary emotions that 113 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: we would feel when something just doesn't go right. I'm 114 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: wondering if you're seeing any shifts in that given some 115 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: of the trends we're looking at in the digital world. 116 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: So the digital world tends to breed anger, frustration, like 117 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: not exactly sadness, but almost like I would want to 118 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: say rage. Rage isn't exactly the right word, but it 119 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:17,120 Speaker 1: leans that direction. Yeah, so you may be sad about it, 120 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: but you're also expressing maybe that sadness through anger. 121 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,520 Speaker 2: How do those any ideas on how those might relate. 122 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. Yeah, I don't do a lot of 123 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 3: work with kids, but I know developmentally speaking, anger for 124 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 3: kids more often than not is an outward expression of 125 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: inward depression. And what I mean by that is because 126 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 3: kids don't have necessarily the emotional language or maturity to 127 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 3: know how to express themselves in a if I can 128 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 3: say in appropriate ways, what often comes out is anger. 129 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 3: Write this sudden outbursts or this throwing of something, and 130 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 3: sometimes it could be anger, but a lot of times 131 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 3: for kids, they just don't have the band with to 132 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 3: be able to express the sorrow. I kind of use 133 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 3: that as a bit of an analogy to what we 134 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 3: see online. Yeah, that in a lot of ways, I 135 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 3: think there's some real heartache, some real if I can 136 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 3: use the word sorrow over life situations, context of our society. 137 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 3: But what often comes out is to the social media 138 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 3: is it's like a little kid who just wants to 139 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: rail and just vent because they now have a platform 140 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 3: where they can vent. And it's a lack of communal maturity, 141 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 3: communal vocabulary, communal resistance to let our base or impulses 142 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 3: go forward, where again, when we don't have a space 143 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 3: to then share the lament over something, the only other 144 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 3: response we think is anger, and it has a self 145 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 3: fulfilling prophecy in that those of us that view that 146 00:08:55,600 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 3: those videos on constant loop through doom scrolling, we then 147 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 3: kind of develop our own response. Well, heck if I 148 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 3: ain't angry too, Yeah, that's right, and the rage machine 149 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 3: continues to polarize, continues to feed into the algorithms, and 150 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 3: we know the whole crazy cycle that goes from that. 151 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 3: That's one of the first things that's start thinking about 152 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 3: when you mentioned that there's there's a correlation of source 153 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 3: between how little kids respond to depression and anger and 154 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 3: kind of what we're seeing online as well. 155 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, because it feels like there's sort of a you know, 156 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: and you mentioned like little kids don't have the vocabulary 157 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: necessarily to verbalize exactly what they're feeling. They can't express it. 158 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 1: And I think maybe even an adult part of that 159 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: that could be part of the problem, but I think 160 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: even the bigger part of the problem is that we 161 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: don't feel like we. 162 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 2: Can do anything about it. 163 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, and so we're we're almost being conditioned is 164 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: a strong word, and I don't mean that in sort 165 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: of a conspiracy theory sort of way, right, but we 166 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 1: are being maybe enculturated a bit into thinking that this 167 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: sort of rage is an appropriate response to our frustrations. 168 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,440 Speaker 1: I remember I'm doing a different series with a buddy 169 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: and he was talking about we're talking a little bit 170 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: about biblical masculinity, and we got into aggression and he 171 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: said one of the things that I believe it was 172 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: Winston Churchill said about Gandhi, right when Gandhi was doing 173 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: his nonviolent resistance of the Great of Great Britain. He said, 174 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, look at the effeminate leader that they have. 175 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,080 Speaker 1: He's not even going to fight back. And you're just like, 176 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: how interesting. Yeah, right, because you think about, you know, 177 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: some of the things that Gandhi did, and it's like 178 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: he's into this more passive resistance, like he's just not 179 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: going to play the game that everybody wants him to play, 180 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: and in that is an active resistance. But as we 181 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: just think about that comment, it's like, that's what it 182 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: feels like we're supposed to do now, is the way 183 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 1: to get things done is to take this more aggressive 184 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: stance toward whatever it is that we're railing against and 185 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: really punchbody in the mouth, whether it's you know, verbally 186 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: or physically or whatever like. 187 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: That's the response. 188 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: It's not a reason I'm going to step away from 189 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 1: the fray and do my own thing. It's nope, this 190 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: is an appropriate response right now. This guy's an idiot 191 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: and everybody needs to know it. Kind of I do. 192 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh that's interesting because I mean, unfortunately it works 193 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 3: right when I give those verbal jousts. 194 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I get. 195 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 3: The likes, I get, I get the clicks, and it 196 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 3: continues to monetize our attention in a way that again 197 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,839 Speaker 3: fulfills what it's designed to do. But to your point, yeah, 198 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 3: it doesn't necessarily create a compassionate response towards those realities 199 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 3: in ways that I think are in line with Christian virtues. 200 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,439 Speaker 1: And it may be masking a sadness, is what I'm 201 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: kind of And I don't only put works in your mouth, 202 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: but what I'm kind of hearing you say is it 203 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 1: very well may be masking a sadness underneath. It may 204 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: not actually be angry at this one particular thing, but 205 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: this one particular thing is just sort of piling on 206 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: to this deeper existential anxiety, deeper sadness that we have 207 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: about the way the world has turned out for us 208 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: and maybe for others. And now when that one other 209 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: thing piles on, we don't respond with a lament, We 210 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: don't respond with you know, those sort of tools, right, 211 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 1: we're actually expressing this deep sadness and disappointment at the 212 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: way the world is. 213 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 2: We just get angry. 214 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. And I remember one of my boys, he's probably 215 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: all a four years old. I went to go pick 216 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,160 Speaker 3: him up from Sunday school downstairs, and he was having 217 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 3: a grand time, loved being with his friends, loves being 218 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 3: at Sunday school. And I said, okay, buddy, it's time 219 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 3: to go. And he looked at me and said, no, 220 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 3: I don't want to go. I said, no, it's Sunday 221 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 3: School's done. We got to go go. He grabbed his 222 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 3: little jar of a plastic jar of crayons and threw 223 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 3: it as the room and the thing just went. And 224 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 3: I remember everyone, myself, the shide school teach, all the 225 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 3: kids went what do we do with this? It was 226 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 3: just this outburst. I remember, obviously trying to be calm, 227 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,560 Speaker 3: and picked him up and walked him out. And had 228 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 3: to deal with them accordingly, and later in conversation said, Dad, 229 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 3: I was just so sad. I loved my friends. I 230 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 3: didn't want to leave them. Yeah, to hear to hear 231 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 3: him respond that way rightfully, I was discouraged by his 232 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 3: initial response. Sure, and yet I wanted to how can 233 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 3: I even say this, even applaud him for the sorrow 234 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 3: of leaving behind his friends, Like, there's something good that 235 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 3: I want to foster in that that he loves his friends, 236 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 3: that he wants to be with his friends, and he 237 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 3: feels heartache when he's not with his friends. Yeah, that's good. 238 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 3: Like that there's something good there that I wanted to 239 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 3: foster in him. Now I want to help mitigate his 240 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: response when he doesn't get those things right. Yeah, obviously 241 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 3: we need to work on that a little bit more. 242 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 3: But being all of four years old, I kind of 243 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 3: get you don't have them wherewithal the maturity, the insight, 244 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 3: the vocabulary. How do we build that? My concern paralleling 245 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 3: to us today in our culture is that we highly 246 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 3: reward the vocabulary of anger in the midst of real sorrow, 247 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 3: and sometimes you need to get angry, I realize. I 248 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:31,480 Speaker 3: think Jesus flipped a couple of tables from what I've 249 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 3: read here and there, and so there may be times 250 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 3: for that. If there's also a lot of weeping over 251 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 3: the city of Jerusalem too, and one is not more 252 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 3: biblical masculinity than the other, I think they're both in 253 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 3: that sense, truly biblical masculinity. 254 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. 255 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a sense in which I think we've 256 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: denormalized sorrow to normalize the lament, and it's only appropriate 257 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: in certain spaces, right, you know, broken limbs probably okay 258 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: to cry and be sad about. You know, that's a 259 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: that's an area of vulnerability. We're okay with funerals, totally fine. 260 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: You know, weddings, you know, my daughters, when my daughters 261 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: get married, I'll be I'll be a mess. 262 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: I'm sure, Like there's no doubt in my mind. 263 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: So, I mean, we have these sort of corners where 264 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: it's okay to express that that sort of deep, non 265 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: angry emotion. But you know, you can envision someone getting 266 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: online and just sort of lamenting the way the world 267 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: is and being in true sorrow sackcloth and ashes sort 268 00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: of right, and just look him and go and it's weird, 269 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: like why, Like I mean, I even know what my 270 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: response would be. It is just not something we're used 271 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: to seeing, and so we tend to either oh, that's 272 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: great for them, and then go about our merry way, right, 273 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: as opposed to recognizing it as a true expression of 274 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: something that could actually be helpful and maybe even sort 275 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: of you know, help us pull away from the depressive attitude, 276 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: might actually make us less sad. Yeah, Like, if sadness 277 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: were appropriately expressed. 278 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 2: We might actually end up being less sad. 279 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 3: There's something so good about that, James. The ability to articulate, 280 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 3: to voice, to give space doesn't lessen the severity of 281 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 3: what got you there, but it does give you space 282 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: to deal with it a little more holistically, right, the 283 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 3: ability just to kind of let it out. There's times 284 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 3: in counseling with clients where, especially with some of my 285 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 3: male clients, when they do start showing emotion, maybe even tears. 286 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 3: And that's not the goal of counseling per se. But 287 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 3: how many times I've heard clients say, I'm so embarrassed, 288 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. I don't mean to be emotional. I'm like, dude, 289 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 3: if this isn't the place to do it, then. 290 00:16:58,440 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: Like where right? 291 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 3: And that response that they feel shame or they feel embarrassed. 292 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 3: I remember hearing the first time that phrase at a funeral, 293 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 3: I think one time, someone asking, well, how so and 294 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 3: so doing, like the spouse or the kids. Oh, they're 295 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 3: doing well, They're they're keeping a stiff upper lip, right, 296 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 3: they're holding it together. 297 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:19,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. 298 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 3: And I remember thinking I didn't even hear what that meant, 299 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 3: that phrase meant. But the idea that you're not even 300 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 3: letting your lips quiver for fear of showing emotion at 301 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,479 Speaker 3: a time that I'm like, but wouldn't that be appropriate here? 302 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 3: Wouldn't this be a normative context that even here at 303 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 3: the death of a loved one, they're doing fine. And 304 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 3: even the moralizing of it, right, that to not do 305 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 3: fine means that you're kind of losing it, but to 306 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 3: do fine means that you're keeping it all together. 307 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. 308 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: And I've done this experiment, this thought experiment with some 309 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,640 Speaker 3: of my clients, especially those who are a faith when 310 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 3: we talk about Jesus in the garden, Like, what's the 311 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 3: mental image you have of Jesus in the garden praying 312 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 3: to his father? And nine times out of ten it's 313 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 3: this stoic Jesus looking into heaven single tear down the 314 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 3: face and I'm like, sorry to burst your bubble, But 315 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 3: most likely in the engineer's context, he's on the ground 316 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 3: like full on weeping, probably most likely what we would 317 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 3: call out of control. But that was an appropriate say. 318 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 3: And I'm not here to say one is necessarily better 319 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 3: than the other, but I think there is an authenticity 320 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 3: that we need to allow for in those moments, especially 321 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,920 Speaker 3: in our context where there is this real existential dread 322 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 3: that I think is a proper response. But how it 323 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 3: can move sometimes when we don't give space for it. 324 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 3: I think this is when it goes back to your 325 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 3: earlier question, when can it start getting too much where 326 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 3: we tried to keep it in and it starts affecting life, 327 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 3: It starts affecting relationships, it starts I think what I 328 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 3: see in some context of what is clinical depression in 329 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 3: terms of a diagnostic criteria, it's just the fact that 330 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 3: a person hasn't had this space or wherewithal to have 331 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 3: honest reflection about the hardships that they, if not society 332 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 3: is dealing with. 333 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: Do you find when you're dealing with people who have 334 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: who are trying to cope with sort of just general sadness, right, 335 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 1: and maybe I'll put it like this non event based 336 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: sadness got it right. 337 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 2: Like so nobody nothing you couldn't point back to. 338 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: Man, I know, you know, some tragedy happened in my 339 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: life and I'm really sad about it, but just sort 340 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 1: of that non event based sadness, Like there's something going on. 341 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: I can't really articulate it, but I'm just sad all 342 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: the time. I'm depressed all the time. And even if 343 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: they're continuing to sort of function, right, they're functioning in 344 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: a in. 345 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 2: A way that we would define as. 346 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: Fine, yeah, to use your word, right, but it's clear 347 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: that they're not elevating beyond fine, right, Like they're getting 348 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: all the task done that everybody around them needs them 349 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: to do, but they're not actually fine. 350 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I find it. 351 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: I mean, I've been married down for twenty six years 352 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: and it's finally been drilled into me that when i 353 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: think I'm doing fine, when i think I'm sort of 354 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: masking the sadness to the frustration of the day, my 355 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,959 Speaker 1: wife's like, you're doing a horrible job at it, Like 356 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: there's no chance that you can hide the fact that 357 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: you are preoccupied with all these other things that you're frustrated, 358 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 1: like you don't hide it. Well, I'm like, really, because 359 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: I thought I was it was great job, right, So 360 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,719 Speaker 1: I'm functioning right, yeah, but I'm not. She can tell 361 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 1: the difference, you know. So how do you how do 362 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: you think through some of those things with folks and 363 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,639 Speaker 1: help them get to a point where they could actually 364 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: express the sadness in a way that is helpful to them. 365 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, Now it's good. I mean thinking about even personal 366 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 3: context of when I've made changes in work or sometimes 367 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 3: even physical location. I remember they're using the phrase our wives, 368 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 3: our wonderful helps in this. I use this phrase with 369 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 3: my wife where I'm fine or no. How did I 370 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 3: say I'm okay, but I'm not okay being okay? 371 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? 372 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 3: In that it kind of exemplifies what you were just saying, 373 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 3: like I'm getting everything done. There isn't like some heavy 374 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 3: situation or relational burden. There's nothing wrong with life. I'm okay, right, 375 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 3: but there is this sense that if that's all there is, 376 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 3: I don't like it and I'm okay, but I'm not 377 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 3: okay with just being okay. 378 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. 379 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 3: And so this has prompted me as I often say 380 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,680 Speaker 3: I don't drift towards holiness. I don't drift towards growth. 381 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 3: And there are those times where you just feel like 382 00:21:53,520 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 3: you're drifting, You're just kind of there. Those are moments 383 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,119 Speaker 3: that I think can be when there isn't this against 384 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 3: situational or existential. It's just this kind of driftingness that 385 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 3: I think in itself can be an opportunity to consider, explore, 386 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 3: talk about other options. That may mean a change somewhere, vocation, location, 387 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 3: that may mean a perspective that needs to be adjusted 388 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 3: of saying okay, is if this is the place where 389 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 3: I'm at, how do I then maximize flourishing in this context? 390 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 3: What needs to change in terms of my context? Again, 391 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 3: there's something good about giving space for that drifting frustration 392 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 3: rather than just kind of washing over. I'll just get 393 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 3: over You've got a good job, be okay with the 394 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 3: people that in your life. Just get over yourself already. 395 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 3: I want to give a little space for that, because, again, 396 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:58,919 Speaker 3: I think, especially for Christians, just drifting doesn't result in 397 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 3: flourishing in every sense, theological, psychological, physical. You know this 398 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 3: as a trainer, like you don't drift towards health, no anything, 399 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 3: you tend to drift towards being unhealthy, and it's the 400 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 3: push that tends to motivate towards continued health. I want 401 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 3: to give space for that and then use it as 402 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 3: a creative energy to say, okay, so what do we 403 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 3: do with this? How can we capitalize on this? 404 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: Right? 405 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 3: Give it real energy to acknowledge the frustration, but give 406 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 3: it some growth towards going back to what we said 407 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 3: earlier about telling us right. This idea of meaning towards 408 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 3: what you're made for might me meets some adjustment, but 409 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:43,120 Speaker 3: it's for a greater purpose. 410 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I find it interesting to think, you know, 411 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: making sure that we're not masking sort of this underlying 412 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: existential anxiety, this sadness, this frustration. 413 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 2: The passage that always. 414 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: Comes to my mind is the martyrs under the altern Revelation. 415 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: This is John's vision, and they're crying out to the 416 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: Lord because he hasn't yet avenged them, and so the 417 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: world hasn't yet been made right. And even though we're 418 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: up in heaven, you know, with God. And it's a vision, right, 419 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 1: I don't know that it's the exact picture of what's 420 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,520 Speaker 1: going on, right, So, but it is John's vision. And 421 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: so it has to make sense on some level. But 422 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: this notion of there's an appropriate anxiety and expression of 423 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: a desire for completion, a restoration that all of us 424 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 1: should feel, and I think sometimes we're not so attuned 425 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: to that. 426 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 2: I know, I'm not. 427 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: I just I'm okay most of the time, just grinding, right, 428 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: and you know, the world isn't what it is. I 429 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,400 Speaker 1: know the world's not the way it should be, thank 430 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: you Plantinka. But like you've got to keep grinding, like 431 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: there's no there's nothing else to do. 432 00:24:58,680 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: You just grind. You're just grind. 433 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 1: It's like, well, but there is something else to do, right. 434 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: You see these these souls under the altar, lamenting, crying 435 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 1: out to God, you know, to sort of bring all 436 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: of this to a completion. 437 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 2: We had that opportunity as well. 438 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: We've talked about the lament song, the lament psalms and 439 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: those kind of things like these expressions can be formative 440 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: for us and help with that drift not away from 441 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: holiness but toward holiness. They redirect us toward holiness just 442 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: through the expression. It seems like you see that, you know, 443 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 1: the lament salms almost always break into praise, like if 444 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: that's not drifting toward holiness, right, Like that's a redirection 445 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: of that drift. 446 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 2: It's it's good. So I don't know. 447 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it gives honest space for the struggle. But where 448 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 3: does my hope come from. I look to you, a 449 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 3: Lord Career. There's always this movement towards something, and yet 450 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 3: it is the tint right. And I've talked about this 451 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,000 Speaker 3: with you before. GK. Chesternan has always been an incredibly 452 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 3: helpful voice on this to me because of his desire 453 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 3: to help the reader embrace tension, not just balance, but 454 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 3: tension as a point of the Christian faith. If the 455 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 3: paradox of orthodoxy, as he talks about it, that you 456 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 3: have these points that should be diametrically opposed to each other, 457 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 3: and yet the only way to embrace them in faith 458 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: is not to balance them. In fact, the greatest heresies 459 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 3: of the world have come when they've tried to balance out. Well, 460 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 3: maybe he's like fifty percent Man and fifty percent God, 461 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 3: and you're like, no, that's heresy, don't do that. I 462 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 3: apply that same logic to things like this, that there 463 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 3: is both what we said before, eschatological hope. There is 464 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 3: a movement towards the mountain of God and the city 465 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 3: that he will establish. And we're in the midst of 466 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 3: real pain and suffering and languishing. That is, that is 467 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 3: our current reality. Who the passage I was thinking about 468 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 3: is in Hebrews, after that great presentation of the heroes 469 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 3: of faith that more often than not they're faithful in 470 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 3: the midst of suffering. 471 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 2: Right. 472 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 3: The writer then gives the par examplar of Jesus, who, 473 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 3: for the joy set before him, endures the cross. Like 474 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 3: it's not it's not an either or. It's actually through 475 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 3: the suffering of the cross that the greatest joy is 476 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 3: experienced in the sun. There's something about that that I 477 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 3: it's hard. Again. We don't like the tension because even 478 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 3: the word itself means that we got to resolve it. 479 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 3: What if? What if instead that the greater meaning, hope, 480 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 3: joy is found in not the resolving of the tension, 481 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 3: but by the embracing of the tension, as it means 482 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 3: that actually helps us then say, this is not the 483 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 3: way it's supposed to be, and there's one who's gonna 484 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 3: put it right. I can still cry for the injustice 485 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 3: and cry to the one who can make justice right. 486 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting. 487 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: I mean Chesterton, I've done most of my reading on 488 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: him in terms of his notions of progress, And one 489 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: of the things he talks about with progress is, you know, 490 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: you use that term, but you very seldom know where 491 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: you're going. Is kind of the gist of it. You know, 492 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: progress only matters if you have an end point where 493 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,200 Speaker 1: you understand where this progress is leading you. Otherwise it's 494 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: just movement. And I think that you know, sort of 495 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: framing this in terms of that tell us what's going 496 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: to happen the joy that's set before us. Now, what 497 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,960 Speaker 1: we can start to see is that the sadness and 498 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: the suffering are actually progress. They're moving us toward that 499 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: end goal of joy, and they're not hindrances to it. 500 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 1: They're not a betrayal of it. Yeah, part of this 501 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: sort of move that we make toward it, and in 502 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: part I think it's because we need to feel it 503 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: on some level so that once we get to the. 504 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 2: End, we understand what we have. 505 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: I had a guy on a Bible study one time 506 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 1: asked me, you know, why, how do you know once 507 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: we reached the New Creation? We were studying Revelation twenty one, 508 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: twenty two. He's like, once we reach the New Creation, 509 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: how do we know we won't sit anymore? You know, 510 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: why why wouldn't we make the same choice Adam and 511 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: he've made in the garden And I just said, well, 512 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: I think the difference is that they'd only known paradise. 513 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: There's something unknown about what's on the other side of paradise. 514 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: Could it have been better? We know the answer to 515 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: that now, Yeah, it wasn't even Yeah, even when it 516 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,800 Speaker 1: was presented as being better, Like they didn't know what 517 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: was out there, So, you know, could God have been 518 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: holding back on them and this paradise that they're in, 519 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 1: Could it have even been you know, that much better 520 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: for them? Like they didn't know, they'd only experienced the paradise, 521 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: and so we haven't. We've experience it's the fallen world. 522 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: We know what we're in, and so by the time 523 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: we get to the New Creation, we're just going to 524 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: be elated to be there because there are no tears, 525 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: there are no pain there, you know, that's wiped away, 526 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,719 Speaker 1: And so you can sit back and you're like, no, 527 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: we wouldn't make that choice again because we understand what 528 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: we're choosing. 529 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 2: We didn't come back to this, and. 530 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 3: We have a context for that understanding that. Oh, that's so. 531 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 3: I just made this point last week when we were 532 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 3: talking about the I grew up in an evangelistic tool 533 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 3: of bad news. Good news. 534 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: Okay, bad news. 535 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 3: You're a sinner. Good news, Jesus loves you, which is 536 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 3: a great truth. I believe both those points. It wasn't 537 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 3: until much later that I realized, Well, the story doesn't 538 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 3: start at Genesis three. It doesn't start with bad news. 539 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 3: It starts with good news. And I was trying to 540 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 3: make the point the word fall doesn't even make sense 541 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 3: unless you understand and where we have fallen from from 542 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 3: right right. What you're highlighting here that I think is 543 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 3: wonderful is the other side of that. We can't We 544 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 3: can only enjoy more the glory to come because we 545 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 3: have experienced what the fall is. It only makes greater sense, 546 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,120 Speaker 3: It only gives us greater joy. As much as we 547 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: lost this much in the fall from from creation. 548 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 2: Right, we're going to gain that much more. 549 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 3: How much more? I was just gonna say, how much 550 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 3: more because we know the pain, and the experience of 551 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 3: the pain actually provides even greater joy of what we've 552 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 3: gained in the new creation. That's a beautiful thought. 553 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: And I just think there's something as we think about, 554 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: you know, sadness as this rational or theological response, it 555 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: just I think there's. 556 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 2: A texture there that is. 557 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: Our expression, our naming of that sadness, are our deepest 558 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: experience of it, not ignoring it, not letting it come 559 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: out as anger or frustration. But that deepest experience of 560 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: the sadness is part of our sanctification because it does 561 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,600 Speaker 1: give us a depth of understanding of where we are 562 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: right now, so that when we are in that new creation, 563 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: when we've reached the joy, we understand what we've lost. 564 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: We sloughed off the sadness, like the tears wiped away 565 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 1: aren't aren't trivial to us because I never cried anyway. 566 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: I was always tough, So that doesn't mean anything to me. 567 00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: Right Like, we've actually delved deeply into that emotion as 568 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: an appropriate theological response. 569 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 2: To where we are. 570 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I just think there's something really powerful about 571 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: that thought. 572 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 3: I mean, psychologically, there's a corollary to the construct of 573 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 3: what we call grit, this idea of developing resilience in 574 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 3: the midst of hardship that psychologists have realized this, your 575 00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 3: development of grit actually helps propel you because there's gonna 576 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 3: be another curveball coming your way, there's gonna be another hardship. 577 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 3: The question is what have you learned through these processes 578 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 3: that actually gives you greater opportunities for flourishing in the 579 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 3: next opportunities. And there's a whole world of psychology and 580 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 3: research that has been developed that highlights this is what 581 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 3: helps bring about greater human flourishing. But grit can't be 582 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 3: developed unless there's something to be gritty about. If I 583 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 3: could say it that way, you got to go through 584 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 3: something in order to build up something better. And that's 585 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 3: kind of what we I mean theologically, that's the word 586 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 3: we give for sanctification. There is this process of you've 587 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 3: got to go through something hard, but it's not it's 588 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,280 Speaker 3: not a throwaway, right, It's it's intended to be deeply 589 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 3: purposeful and meaningful to not just me, but to the 590 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 3: greater tapestry of the grand narrative of what God is 591 00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 3: doing in history and how we then get to be 592 00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 3: part of it as well. 593 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's great. Then I think we leave 594 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,919 Speaker 1: it there, and I think this covers the existential leg 595 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: of the stool pretty well. 596 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I. 597 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: Think we've delved pretty deeply into the existential leg of 598 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 1: this stool. So we had the social dimension, the existential 599 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: connection or the social leg, the existential leg, and now 600 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,879 Speaker 1: in the next couple episodes we'll talk about the embodied leg, 601 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:29,439 Speaker 1: and so excited to get into that and looking forward 602 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: to that conversation. 603 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:31,520 Speaker 2: So thanks again, Ben for being here. 604 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: Really appreciate it, and thanks everybody for listening to the episode. 605 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 2: We'll catch you on the next one. Take care. 606 00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the 607 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on 608 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, 609 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,760 Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 610 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.