1 00:00:05,740 --> 00:00:08,910 Speaker 1: More than 500 brothers and sisters at one time saw 2 00:00:08,930 --> 00:00:11,670 Speaker 1: the risen Jesus. We today do not have any way 3 00:00:11,770 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: to produce mass hallucinations. There's no drug that can produced 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: a hallucination that everybody believes. He met many of these 5 00:00:19,500 --> 00:00:22,770 Speaker 1: people and he heard about the others, so he verified 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,550 Speaker 1: it himself. This is remarkable. 7 00:00:24,660 --> 00:00:28,370 Speaker 2: Has AI, and if so, how has AI transformed our 8 00:00:28,410 --> 00:00:31,210 Speaker 2: ability to get back to the original words of Jesus 9 00:00:31,290 --> 00:00:31,770 Speaker 2: and the apostles? 10 00:00:32,210 --> 00:00:36,170 Speaker 1: The use of AI will eventually help us to decipher 11 00:00:36,290 --> 00:00:41,309 Speaker 1: fragmentary text or blurred text or text that's got smudges 12 00:00:41,390 --> 00:00:43,989 Speaker 1: or something with a very high degree of predictability. 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 2: What are five of the most important early New Testament manuscripts? 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 2: What do they tell us about the transmission and reliability 15 00:00:51,940 --> 00:00:55,420 Speaker 2: of the New Testament text? Dr. Dan Wallace, perhaps the 16 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,700 Speaker 2: leading authority on ancient New Testament manuscripts, joins us to 17 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,190 Speaker 2: talk about the latest discoveries in textual criticism and about 18 00:01:03,310 --> 00:01:07,090 Speaker 2: how and why, after decades of study, he has more 19 00:01:07,170 --> 00:01:10,470 Speaker 2: confidence in the reliable transmission of the New Testament than 20 00:01:10,530 --> 00:01:11,090 Speaker 2: ever before. 21 00:01:11,650 --> 00:01:11,910 Speaker 1: Dr. 22 00:01:11,930 --> 00:01:13,610 Speaker 2: Dan Wallace, welcome back to the show. 23 00:01:15,110 --> 00:01:18,110 Speaker 1: That was too much buttering me up, Sean, but thanks. 24 00:01:18,890 --> 00:01:19,830 Speaker 1: Good to see you again. 25 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:22,110 Speaker 2: Well, let's jump in because we're going to talk about 26 00:01:22,260 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 2: five of the most important early manuscripts in the New Testament. 27 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: But remind us why you got into textual transmission in 28 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:32,669 Speaker 2: the first place and just what you love about it. 29 00:01:34,540 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: Well, I made a commitment to Christ, a radical commitment 30 00:01:37,459 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: to Christ when I was 16. And I actually dedicated 31 00:01:40,780 --> 00:01:45,420 Speaker 1: myself to full-time Christian vocational ministry. and spent the rest 32 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,660 Speaker 1: of my education training for that. I come from a 33 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: family of engineers, so it was kind of out of 34 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: left field that I went in this direction. But I 35 00:01:54,480 --> 00:02:00,030 Speaker 1: was 16 years old and immediately became an evangelist, really. 36 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:03,570 Speaker 1: And I went to– I grew up in Newport Beach, 37 00:02:03,630 --> 00:02:04,730 Speaker 1: so you know Newport Beach. 38 00:02:05,070 --> 00:02:05,190 Speaker 3: Yeah. 39 00:02:05,230 --> 00:02:08,950 Speaker 1: And Coast Highway goes right along the coast there from 40 00:02:08,990 --> 00:02:12,609 Speaker 1: Mexico up to Canada. So I saw this big billboard 41 00:02:12,870 --> 00:02:16,630 Speaker 1: on a real estate office. And it said, Jesus saves. 42 00:02:16,790 --> 00:02:18,930 Speaker 1: So I thought, oh, that's my kind of guy. You know, 43 00:02:18,950 --> 00:02:22,990 Speaker 1: I'm just in my sophomoric exuberance. I'm going to see him. 44 00:02:23,150 --> 00:02:25,770 Speaker 1: And we started talking about the Bible and things. And 45 00:02:25,830 --> 00:02:29,170 Speaker 1: he told me I could buy a whole box full 46 00:02:29,410 --> 00:02:33,270 Speaker 1: of today's English version or good news for modern man. 47 00:02:33,930 --> 00:02:37,570 Speaker 1: If I bought the whole box, it would cost me 48 00:02:37,570 --> 00:02:41,570 Speaker 1: 25 cents per paperback New Testament. So I would do that. 49 00:02:41,710 --> 00:02:44,550 Speaker 1: And I'd drive up and down Coast Highway, pick up hitchhikers. 50 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,820 Speaker 1: share the gospel, give them a New Testament, and keep 51 00:02:47,870 --> 00:02:50,350 Speaker 1: coming back to talk to Brother Michael. Well, after a 52 00:02:50,370 --> 00:02:54,870 Speaker 1: few times, he started to say, you know, the Bible 53 00:02:54,910 --> 00:02:59,130 Speaker 1: doesn't teach that Jesus is God. And I thought, what 54 00:02:59,169 --> 00:03:02,370 Speaker 1: do you mean? He showed me passages that he said 55 00:03:02,889 --> 00:03:06,090 Speaker 1: showed that Jesus was not, in fact, called God. He 56 00:03:06,169 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: is not deity. Brother Michael was no brother at all. 57 00:03:09,380 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: He was an Arian, not a Jehovah's Witness, but he 58 00:03:13,450 --> 00:03:18,910 Speaker 1: followed the Arian heresy. And so I decided if I'm 59 00:03:18,950 --> 00:03:21,390 Speaker 1: going to commit my life to Christ, I've got to 60 00:03:21,430 --> 00:03:24,310 Speaker 1: make sure he's worth it. So at that point, I 61 00:03:24,350 --> 00:03:27,989 Speaker 1: decided I'm going to learn Greek, look into the Greek 62 00:03:28,030 --> 00:03:31,169 Speaker 1: New Testament, see what it says. And then I discovered 63 00:03:31,389 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: textual criticism once I started at Biola under Harry Sturz. 64 00:03:35,220 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: And so both Greek grammar and what the text says, 65 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:42,990 Speaker 1: textual criticism, were two early loves of mine that I 66 00:03:43,050 --> 00:03:44,530 Speaker 1: have never been able to shake. 67 00:03:45,630 --> 00:03:48,070 Speaker 2: That is incredible. I'm so glad I asked you that. 68 00:03:48,090 --> 00:03:51,309 Speaker 2: I've never heard that story before, that your concern for 69 00:03:51,370 --> 00:03:55,110 Speaker 2: textual transmission comes out of your heart for the gospel 70 00:03:55,150 --> 00:03:57,350 Speaker 2: and your changed life. So let me ask you one 71 00:03:57,370 --> 00:04:00,910 Speaker 2: more question before we get into these five manuscripts. Can 72 00:04:00,930 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: you tell us how textual transmission has changed in the 73 00:04:04,340 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 2: 21st century? And specifically, has AI, and if so, how 74 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,690 Speaker 2: has AI changed? transformed our ability to get back to 75 00:04:12,710 --> 00:04:14,770 Speaker 2: the original words of Jesus and the apostles. 76 00:04:15,210 --> 00:04:20,720 Speaker 1: AI right now, CSNTM is using it for scripture indexing. 77 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: That is, there are over 2 million pages of Greek 78 00:04:25,060 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: New Testament manuscripts. And the vast, vast majority of these 79 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,180 Speaker 1: have never even been indexed so that you know what 80 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:39,770 Speaker 1: verses are on each page of manuscript. CSNTM is really 81 00:04:39,890 --> 00:04:42,090 Speaker 1: on the cutting edge of using AI. We've hired a 82 00:04:42,130 --> 00:04:47,450 Speaker 1: guy to work with AI and software development in conjunction 83 00:04:47,970 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: with OCR, optical character recognition. And what this is doing 84 00:04:53,540 --> 00:04:58,300 Speaker 1: is it's helping us to accurately index each page of 85 00:04:58,380 --> 00:05:01,340 Speaker 1: manuscripts that we have. Over 2 million pages, that's a 86 00:05:01,380 --> 00:05:05,730 Speaker 1: lot to go. But AI is also helping us to 87 00:05:05,830 --> 00:05:11,460 Speaker 1: date manuscripts paleographically by analysis of the handwriting. And what 88 00:05:11,500 --> 00:05:15,660 Speaker 1: we're doing is we're feeding in texts of manuscripts that 89 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:17,900 Speaker 1: we know the dates. Some of the manuscripts actually have 90 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:23,150 Speaker 1: dates on them, very few. But we also have non-Christian manuscripts, 91 00:05:23,270 --> 00:05:26,550 Speaker 1: early papyri, that we know what the date is. And 92 00:05:26,570 --> 00:05:30,950 Speaker 1: we're feeding that into the AI program so it can 93 00:05:31,050 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: start learning what letters looked like and how words were 94 00:05:34,180 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: formed and ligatures. in a certain period, and it will 95 00:05:37,339 --> 00:05:40,650 Speaker 1: help us to be more certain about how we date 96 00:05:40,710 --> 00:05:44,790 Speaker 1: manuscripts paleographically. This is a very exciting use of it. 97 00:05:45,770 --> 00:05:49,330 Speaker 1: Another thing that it's doing is, and this is something 98 00:05:49,370 --> 00:05:55,830 Speaker 1: that has hardly been done when scholars were using microfilms. 99 00:05:55,830 --> 00:05:59,219 Speaker 1: 80 to 90% of all of our Greek New Testament 100 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:04,050 Speaker 1: manuscripts are on microfilm at the Institute in Münster. But 101 00:06:04,130 --> 00:06:07,970 Speaker 1: the microfilm quality is so bad because it's microfilm, not 102 00:06:08,029 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: because these scholars are bad. But because it's microfilm, you 103 00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:16,900 Speaker 1: really can't read the marginal text very well. And a 104 00:06:17,060 --> 00:06:24,300 Speaker 1: number of these microfilms were out of focus. There were 105 00:06:24,380 --> 00:06:26,700 Speaker 1: problems with it in a number of ways. And, of course, 106 00:06:26,740 --> 00:06:31,550 Speaker 1: with microfilm, like any film camera equipment, You take a 107 00:06:31,589 --> 00:06:34,290 Speaker 1: picture and you develop it when you get back home. 108 00:06:34,910 --> 00:06:39,429 Speaker 1: And only then did they discover that up to 25% 109 00:06:39,430 --> 00:06:43,460 Speaker 1: of all of the microfilm images are worthless. You can't 110 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:45,700 Speaker 1: read anything on them. So all that work that they 111 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: did going around the world to microfilm these manuscripts, that's, 112 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: forget about it, a fourth of those. They could not 113 00:06:53,380 --> 00:06:56,460 Speaker 1: read the marginal notes. And marginal notes sometimes have corrections 114 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,330 Speaker 1: by scribes, comments in there that are just fascinating, really 115 00:07:00,370 --> 00:07:03,940 Speaker 1: help us. to see what is going on in the text. 116 00:07:04,620 --> 00:07:08,620 Speaker 1: So this is a huge area where AI is going 117 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,870 Speaker 1: to be very, very helpful. For example, a number of 118 00:07:12,950 --> 00:07:17,210 Speaker 1: our manuscripts come with commentary. And the commentary is usually 119 00:07:17,230 --> 00:07:21,540 Speaker 1: what's called a frame commentary. You've got smaller text around 120 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:24,620 Speaker 1: three edges and the biblical text in the middle in 121 00:07:24,660 --> 00:07:28,660 Speaker 1: a larger text. And it's that smaller text where we 122 00:07:28,680 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: have this commentary by church fathers. Many times they're identified. 123 00:07:32,050 --> 00:07:34,390 Speaker 1: We know who the father was. That's how we find 124 00:07:34,430 --> 00:07:37,090 Speaker 1: out what patristic writers had to say. But at the 125 00:07:37,150 --> 00:07:41,450 Speaker 1: same time, it's difficult to read that. You have to 126 00:07:41,510 --> 00:07:44,070 Speaker 1: go and see the manuscript itself to be able to 127 00:07:44,150 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: read that marginalia. AI is going to solve this problem, 128 00:07:49,420 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: or we can do it just from the images. And 129 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,730 Speaker 1: of course, finally, the use of AI will eventually help 130 00:07:56,810 --> 00:08:02,050 Speaker 1: us to decipher fragmentary text or blurred text or text 131 00:08:02,090 --> 00:08:04,790 Speaker 1: that's got smudges or something with a very high degree 132 00:08:04,810 --> 00:08:09,050 Speaker 1: of predictability. All of this, by the way, is checked 133 00:08:09,170 --> 00:08:12,130 Speaker 1: by human beings. We don't let AI dictate to us 134 00:08:12,310 --> 00:08:14,890 Speaker 1: any of this, but it's a tool that we use 135 00:08:15,010 --> 00:08:18,350 Speaker 1: and we are the masters of AI. So that's some 136 00:08:18,370 --> 00:08:20,070 Speaker 1: of the changes that are going on in the 21st century. 137 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,220 Speaker 2: All right, Dan, one way to look at the reliability 138 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,020 Speaker 2: of the New Testament would be to look at, like, say, 139 00:08:26,100 --> 00:08:29,940 Speaker 2: the number of manuscripts. People bring that in often. But 140 00:08:29,980 --> 00:08:32,380 Speaker 2: what we want to look at is some of the specific, 141 00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: most important early manuscripts and what they tell us about 142 00:08:37,580 --> 00:08:41,260 Speaker 2: how the text was copied and whether it's reliable or not. 143 00:08:42,140 --> 00:08:45,990 Speaker 2: Most scholars would consider P52 the earliest fragment of the 144 00:08:46,030 --> 00:08:49,410 Speaker 2: New Testament. I'd be curious when you date it and why, 145 00:08:49,429 --> 00:08:52,630 Speaker 2: and maybe what you think it reveals and doesn't reveal 146 00:08:52,860 --> 00:08:54,900 Speaker 2: about the transmission of the gospel, John. 147 00:08:56,620 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: Such a great question to start with. P52 is known 148 00:09:01,580 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: by laymen because of its significance. It was discovered, I 149 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:13,500 Speaker 1: think it was in the 1930s, right around then. Let's 150 00:09:13,700 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: see if I'm right. Oh yeah, it was discovered in 1934, 151 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:22,540 Speaker 1: I think. And yeah, C.H. Roberts discovered it. Let me 152 00:09:22,660 --> 00:09:24,660 Speaker 1: give a little background on this fragment. It's only the 153 00:09:24,710 --> 00:09:27,350 Speaker 1: size of a credit card, very, very tiny. It has 154 00:09:27,550 --> 00:09:31,790 Speaker 1: John 18, 31 through 33 on one side, and on 155 00:09:31,809 --> 00:09:37,170 Speaker 1: the back side, verses 37 and 38. Now, in 1844, 156 00:09:37,170 --> 00:09:43,290 Speaker 1: Ferdinand Christian Bauer, F.C. Bauer, the father of theological liberalism 157 00:09:43,890 --> 00:09:51,239 Speaker 1: in Germany— was applying Hegelian dialectic to the New Testament. Now, 158 00:09:51,380 --> 00:09:54,580 Speaker 1: all that means, Hegelian dialectic, maybe if people are still 159 00:09:54,620 --> 00:09:57,310 Speaker 1: waking up on the West Coast, they might not want 160 00:09:57,330 --> 00:10:00,479 Speaker 1: to hear technical terms like that. What all know it 161 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:05,300 Speaker 1: by thesis, antithesis, and then the two come together as 162 00:10:05,340 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: a synthesis. That's Hegelian dialectic. Bauer actually studied under Professor 163 00:10:10,100 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: Hegel at the University of Tübingen. And what he did, 164 00:10:14,260 --> 00:10:19,570 Speaker 1: what Bauer did through philosophical means, using this dialectic, is 165 00:10:19,630 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: he figured out when books of the New Testament would 166 00:10:23,059 --> 00:10:29,589 Speaker 1: have been written. Not historical evidence, philosophical presuppositions. And he 167 00:10:29,660 --> 00:10:34,250 Speaker 1: said that John's gospel is really an amalgamation, a synthesis 168 00:10:34,490 --> 00:10:39,530 Speaker 1: of the earliest Christianity, the Petrine or the Jerusalem Apostles' Christianity, 169 00:10:39,990 --> 00:10:43,890 Speaker 1: and Paul. And he argued that John could not have 170 00:10:43,950 --> 00:10:49,100 Speaker 1: been written earlier than A.D. 160. In fact, he felt 171 00:10:49,140 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: it was written about 170. That was 1844, and it 172 00:10:54,059 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 1: held sway right up until 1934 when C.H. Roberts, without 173 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,340 Speaker 1: doing philosophical work but actual looking at the evidence, and 174 00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: as I've often said, an ounce of evidence is worth 175 00:11:06,350 --> 00:11:09,830 Speaker 1: a pound of presumption. In this case, two tons of presumption. 176 00:11:10,650 --> 00:11:15,730 Speaker 1: He looked at a manuscript at Manchester University, and what 177 00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:20,970 Speaker 1: he discovered was this little fragment. that had handwriting on 178 00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:24,990 Speaker 1: both sides. What that tells us is this manuscript was 179 00:11:25,090 --> 00:11:31,510 Speaker 1: written on a codex because papyri were written on scrolls 180 00:11:31,830 --> 00:11:34,809 Speaker 1: only on the inside, or sometimes they'd do it on 181 00:11:34,870 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: the outside. John speaks about this in the book of 182 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: Revelation where he said it's written on both sides. It 183 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: was a scroll he's talking about. It's very unusual, but 184 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: they did that sometimes. But Christians were the first people 185 00:11:46,270 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: to popularize the Codex form. And C.H. Roberts actually literally 186 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,660 Speaker 1: later wrote the book called The Birth of the Codex. 187 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,100 Speaker 1: He was the world's expert on it. And, uh, the 188 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:03,340 Speaker 1: Codex form, for the first five centuries of the Christian era, 189 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 1: over 90% of all Christian manuscripts were written on a Codex. 190 00:12:08,900 --> 00:12:10,930 Speaker 1: That's our modern book form, down on one side and 191 00:12:10,970 --> 00:12:16,309 Speaker 1: cut pages, you know. Uh, but, uh, with reference to 192 00:12:16,330 --> 00:12:19,650 Speaker 1: the rest of literature through the first five centuries, less 193 00:12:19,710 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: than 15% of non-Christian manuscripts were written on a codex. 194 00:12:24,429 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: So for the first and probably the only time in 195 00:12:27,059 --> 00:12:29,420 Speaker 1: the history of the church, we were actually ahead of 196 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 1: the technological curve. So Roberts is the one who discovers 197 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:40,860 Speaker 1: literally the oldest codex manuscript, P52. Now, as I said, 198 00:12:41,059 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 1: it has John 18 on one side, 31 through 33 199 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,860 Speaker 1: and 37 and 38. It's interesting. Verse 37 says, Pilate 200 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: says to Jesus, are you king of the Jews? Jesus responds, 201 00:12:52,740 --> 00:12:57,020 Speaker 1: you say that I am. And then verse 38, Pilate says, 202 00:12:57,179 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 1: what is truth? We have this in P52. It's a 203 00:13:00,220 --> 00:13:04,500 Speaker 1: remarkable passage that speaks to the reality of what this 204 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:10,420 Speaker 1: manuscript is attesting. Now, Robert stated it somewhere between 100 205 00:13:10,420 --> 00:13:15,690 Speaker 1: and 150. He actually did it by way of comparisons 206 00:13:15,850 --> 00:13:20,150 Speaker 1: of actual dated manuscripts, which is the way you're supposed 207 00:13:20,170 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: to date these manuscripts anyway. And he found the same 208 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: letter formations in two manuscripts especially, but there were several 209 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:33,190 Speaker 1: others that he looked at. One was dated AD 94. 210 00:13:33,179 --> 00:13:37,740 Speaker 1: That was his closest manuscript to the script of P52. 211 00:13:38,260 --> 00:13:40,930 Speaker 1: Another one was dated 152, and all the others fell 212 00:13:40,970 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: within that range. He sent... pictures of this to the 213 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: three leading papyrologists of the time, every single one wrote 214 00:13:47,950 --> 00:13:50,849 Speaker 1: back and said, I say this is a manuscript written 215 00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:54,510 Speaker 1: between 100 and 150. And a fourth one, a German 216 00:13:54,550 --> 00:13:57,130 Speaker 1: scholar said, no, I think you're all wrong. I think 217 00:13:57,170 --> 00:14:02,930 Speaker 1: it may have been written in the 90s. So today, 218 00:14:02,950 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 1: P52 has been dated somewhere in the middle of the 219 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:14,569 Speaker 1: second century, 125 to 175. But I think That's because 220 00:14:14,630 --> 00:14:17,270 Speaker 1: of certain things that some scholars have said, but still 221 00:14:17,309 --> 00:14:22,290 Speaker 1: the best dating for it is 100 to 150. It's 222 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:26,300 Speaker 1: a small fragment. It doesn't tell us much. But as 223 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,460 Speaker 1: Bruce Metzger noted, just as Robinson Crusoe found a footprint 224 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,500 Speaker 1: in the sand on a deserted island, and he knew 225 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: another man was there, so P52 tells us that John 226 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:43,550 Speaker 1: was almost surely written before 160. Now, normally... Copies are 227 00:14:43,570 --> 00:14:45,770 Speaker 1: not made before the originals. At least that's where I 228 00:14:45,830 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: was taught in school when I was growing up. And 229 00:14:48,020 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: this sent two tons of German scholarship to the flames. 230 00:14:52,420 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 1: One wag actually said the ink of the original must 231 00:14:55,420 --> 00:14:58,810 Speaker 1: have been barely dry by the time this manuscript was copied. 232 00:14:59,450 --> 00:15:03,790 Speaker 1: So that's a little bit of information about P52. Fascinating manuscript. 233 00:15:04,310 --> 00:15:04,950 Speaker 1: That's remarkable. 234 00:15:04,970 --> 00:15:08,510 Speaker 2: I'm going to grab a facsimile of P52 behind me 235 00:15:08,570 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: now that you mention it. I've actually got one right here. 236 00:15:14,060 --> 00:15:17,580 Speaker 2: I know you've worked with manuscript shop to make these 237 00:15:17,900 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: so carefully, but people can see the size of it. 238 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:23,900 Speaker 2: It's like you said, like the size of a credit card, 239 00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:28,940 Speaker 2: but probably the earliest physical one that we have is stunning. 240 00:15:28,980 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 2: Now that one's small. It's significant, like you said. Let's 241 00:15:31,850 --> 00:15:36,470 Speaker 2: talk about a manuscript that is bigger, which is P66. 242 00:15:37,150 --> 00:15:38,310 Speaker 2: Tell us about that one, if you will. 243 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, P52 I spent a lot of time on 244 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: because it's the earliest. P66 should be dated in the 245 00:15:45,980 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: early 3rd century. Originally, it was dated as early as 150, 246 00:15:50,180 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: so right in line with where P52 is dated. And 247 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,350 Speaker 1: some still think it was late 2nd century. But here's 248 00:15:57,370 --> 00:16:00,170 Speaker 1: the thing about P66. It has most of John in it. 249 00:16:01,110 --> 00:16:06,350 Speaker 1: And the scribe was more concerned about calligraphy, about making 250 00:16:06,490 --> 00:16:12,310 Speaker 1: pretty letters out than he or she was about making 251 00:16:12,350 --> 00:16:15,510 Speaker 1: the text as accurate as possible. And this scribe cut 252 00:16:15,570 --> 00:16:21,150 Speaker 1: out any words that they thought were extraneous. Now, if 253 00:16:21,190 --> 00:16:24,450 Speaker 1: we look just at P66, we see that it agrees 254 00:16:24,550 --> 00:16:28,460 Speaker 1: with the Alexandrian witnesses to a very large extent, namely 255 00:16:28,750 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, which are considered our best 256 00:16:34,660 --> 00:16:38,890 Speaker 1: witnesses to the Alexandrian text. textual stream, not text type, 257 00:16:38,910 --> 00:16:42,950 Speaker 1: but textual stream. But there was a corrector, probably in 258 00:16:42,990 --> 00:16:48,530 Speaker 1: the same scriptorium as P66, who corrected the manuscript towards 259 00:16:48,670 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: this standard Alexandrian textual stream that are found in Oliphant 260 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:58,860 Speaker 1: B or Sinaiticus and Vaticanus. It's very, very important. It's 261 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,180 Speaker 1: significant because the Perica P. Adulteri, the story of the 262 00:17:02,220 --> 00:17:08,250 Speaker 1: woman caught in adultery, is not in this manuscript. It's 263 00:17:08,310 --> 00:17:10,870 Speaker 1: not in P75, another one we're going to talk about. 264 00:17:10,970 --> 00:17:14,430 Speaker 1: It's not in Aleph. It's not in B. It's not 265 00:17:14,550 --> 00:17:21,350 Speaker 1: in Codex C or Codex Alexandrinus. These are the six 266 00:17:21,450 --> 00:17:24,290 Speaker 1: earliest manuscripts we have for John's Gospel, and it's not 267 00:17:24,330 --> 00:17:26,689 Speaker 1: found in any of them. So as much as the 268 00:17:26,970 --> 00:17:30,470 Speaker 1: story of the one caught in adultery is really famous 269 00:17:30,530 --> 00:17:34,859 Speaker 1: and well-known, it probably is not original. And P66 is 270 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: one of those manuscripts that helps to show this. It 271 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,379 Speaker 1: was discovered early in the 1950s, and it suggested to 272 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:47,510 Speaker 1: many that Vaticanus, which is, I believe, our most important 273 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:53,709 Speaker 1: biblical manuscript by far, was a 4th century edited text. 274 00:17:54,350 --> 00:17:57,050 Speaker 1: Because P66, which is 125, 150 years earlier than Vaticanus, 275 00:18:01,380 --> 00:18:07,570 Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be following as closely this Alexandrian textual form. 276 00:18:08,570 --> 00:18:11,190 Speaker 1: But when you look at the corrector, now it does. 277 00:18:11,350 --> 00:18:13,970 Speaker 1: And people were kind of ignoring the corrector, done at 278 00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:17,110 Speaker 1: the same scriptorium probably. And so it's a very, very 279 00:18:17,130 --> 00:18:24,510 Speaker 1: important manuscript. I don't think it's as important as another manuscript, P75. 280 00:18:24,570 --> 00:18:26,189 Speaker 1: And I think you want me to talk about that 281 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,179 Speaker 1: one next, right? I would love it. 282 00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 2: Let's jump to P75 then. 283 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 3: Okay. 284 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,550 Speaker 1: P75 was discovered a few years later, also in the 1950s. 285 00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:40,110 Speaker 1: These two manuscripts are called the Bodmer Papyri, or some 286 00:18:40,130 --> 00:18:46,810 Speaker 1: of the Bodmer Papyri. And P75 has most of Luke 287 00:18:47,210 --> 00:18:52,449 Speaker 1: and John in it. Now, it's also dated to the 288 00:18:52,590 --> 00:18:57,230 Speaker 1: early 3rd century. And the remarkable thing about P75 is 289 00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:01,950 Speaker 1: that this manuscript is turned over what some scholars were 290 00:19:01,990 --> 00:19:06,170 Speaker 1: thinking about P66 almost immediately, and it did something else. 291 00:19:07,170 --> 00:19:10,619 Speaker 1: For a long time, it was assumed that Vaticanus and 292 00:19:10,660 --> 00:19:16,359 Speaker 1: Sinaiticus were manuscripts that were edited by a standard in 293 00:19:16,380 --> 00:19:21,580 Speaker 1: the 4th century, maybe for the 50 Bibles that Constantine 294 00:19:23,020 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 1: commissioned Eusebius in his workshop to make and bring to 295 00:19:26,340 --> 00:19:30,100 Speaker 1: the capital city, Constantinople, because Constantine was the the first 296 00:19:30,130 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: Christian emperor. But what P75 did is it showed readings 297 00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:43,250 Speaker 1: that were very, very close to Vaticanus, and they must 298 00:19:43,290 --> 00:19:48,869 Speaker 1: have shared the same ancestor. P75 is not the ancestor 299 00:19:49,390 --> 00:19:53,159 Speaker 1: of Codex Vaticanus, but they are both copies from an 300 00:19:53,780 --> 00:19:57,380 Speaker 1: earlier ancestor. And the way we know this is that 301 00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:04,679 Speaker 1: Vaticanus has some readings that P75 changes, makes them, it 302 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: adds material. So Vaticanus would have included that if it 303 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,630 Speaker 1: were a copy of P75. But this shows that Codex 304 00:20:12,670 --> 00:20:16,590 Speaker 1: B was not edited in the 4th century, but was 305 00:20:16,670 --> 00:20:20,710 Speaker 1: produced very carefully in a long line of accurate copies 306 00:20:20,750 --> 00:20:23,830 Speaker 1: going back to the earliest times. And we know that 307 00:20:23,890 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: in the city of Alexandria, which was the main city 308 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,500 Speaker 1: of the ancient world for book production, and by the 309 00:20:31,260 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: 3rd century BC, 2nd century BC, there were rules on 310 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: how to copy books that were followed by the scribes there. 311 00:20:38,609 --> 00:20:42,429 Speaker 1: that have made this really our most accurate stream of 312 00:20:42,510 --> 00:20:46,650 Speaker 1: transmission where we get these magnificent manuscripts, but they're not 313 00:20:47,010 --> 00:20:54,060 Speaker 1: always right. Now, these two manuscripts, P75 and Vaticanus, are 314 00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: the two closest manuscripts in terms of what they have 315 00:20:56,900 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: to read of the first eight centuries. And that is 316 00:21:03,020 --> 00:21:08,090 Speaker 1: really significant. This tells us If P75 is dated 200, 225, 317 00:21:08,090 --> 00:21:14,730 Speaker 1: right around there, that tells us that the ancestor almost 318 00:21:14,790 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: surely was first century. Wow. Yeah, it's really, really, or 319 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,260 Speaker 1: at least late second century, mid second century, something like that. 320 00:21:27,380 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: P66 and P75, at the beginning of John's gospel, these 321 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,139 Speaker 1: are our two earliest manuscripts that have a title for 322 00:21:34,220 --> 00:21:38,030 Speaker 1: any gospel. And they both say the gospel according to John. 323 00:21:38,990 --> 00:21:43,070 Speaker 1: What's interesting is that Codex B and Olive, I'm using 324 00:21:43,109 --> 00:21:46,970 Speaker 1: that interchangeably with Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, of course. These are 325 00:21:47,010 --> 00:21:51,820 Speaker 1: 4th century manuscripts. But they both have not the gospel 326 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: according to John, but simply according to John. If they 327 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,920 Speaker 1: had access to manuscripts that had the gospel according to John, 328 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,950 Speaker 1: Why didn't they put the gospel in there? According to John, 329 00:22:04,010 --> 00:22:06,949 Speaker 1: I think, is the earliest title that was given to 330 00:22:07,010 --> 00:22:11,209 Speaker 1: these manuscripts. They didn't know yet what to call it. Now, 331 00:22:11,270 --> 00:22:13,490 Speaker 1: Mark calls his a gospel, and I think that's what 332 00:22:13,550 --> 00:22:16,209 Speaker 1: finally took off. When he speaks about the gospel, the 333 00:22:16,260 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: story about Jesus, the beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, 334 00:22:19,660 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: the Son of God, he says in Mark 1.1, that became, 335 00:22:23,660 --> 00:22:29,090 Speaker 1: by the second century, the standard way to refer to 336 00:22:29,140 --> 00:22:32,169 Speaker 1: these four books. But until then, they were just called 337 00:22:32,330 --> 00:22:35,330 Speaker 1: according to John. That, again, tells me that this is 338 00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: probably going back to the very early 2nd century, maybe 339 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:45,060 Speaker 1: 1st century, for all of NB. Now, P66 and P75 340 00:22:46,460 --> 00:22:49,460 Speaker 1: have John 1-1 as well as a number of other 341 00:22:49,510 --> 00:22:53,690 Speaker 1: verses in it. And it says exactly what these great majuscules, 342 00:22:53,970 --> 00:22:58,430 Speaker 1: what almost all the manuscripts say. In the beginning was 343 00:22:58,470 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: the Word. and the Word was with God, and the 344 00:23:01,460 --> 00:23:06,110 Speaker 1: Word was God. There have been some who have said 345 00:23:06,130 --> 00:23:10,109 Speaker 1: that Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ in the 346 00:23:10,330 --> 00:23:15,550 Speaker 1: 4th century at the Council of Nicaea, A.D. 325. That 347 00:23:16,030 --> 00:23:18,250 Speaker 1: would be true, I guess, if he were maybe 150, 348 00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: 175 years old, and he saw these manuscripts, you know, 349 00:23:19,540 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: and so... or he infected them somehow. I don't think 350 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,140 Speaker 1: he was that old. So that kind of view just 351 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: needs to be relegated to the dump heap. It's a 352 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:38,660 Speaker 1: dumpster fire of an argument. It's just stupid to say 353 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:43,030 Speaker 1: that Constantine invented the deity of Christ. It's ridiculous. In fact, 354 00:23:43,369 --> 00:23:48,250 Speaker 1: every single manuscript, every single translation, early version, and the 355 00:23:48,450 --> 00:23:51,490 Speaker 1: church fathers, they all say the same thing in John 356 00:23:51,490 --> 00:23:54,629 Speaker 1: 1.1 with some minor differences that do not affect the 357 00:23:54,670 --> 00:23:59,389 Speaker 1: statement and the Word was God. This is hugely important, 358 00:23:59,450 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: and it shows this very early evidence. Not just do 359 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,920 Speaker 1: we have these early papyri, but we have church fathers 360 00:24:06,060 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 1: like Ignatius, who wrote in about A.D. 110, very beginning 361 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: of the second century, who speaks about Jesus Christ as 362 00:24:14,540 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: God himself. So, P. 75, one more thing I should 363 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,040 Speaker 1: mention about it. I think it's our second most important 364 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:27,330 Speaker 1: manuscript in front of Sinaiticus. And the Bodmer Library in 365 00:24:27,390 --> 00:24:32,129 Speaker 1: Cologne on the edge of Lake Geneva, they were trying 366 00:24:32,250 --> 00:24:35,970 Speaker 1: to get some renovations done, and they needed to sell 367 00:24:36,050 --> 00:24:39,910 Speaker 1: some of their manuscripts to make these renovations. Well, they 368 00:24:39,970 --> 00:24:46,190 Speaker 1: chose to sell their very most important manuscript, P75. Yale 369 00:24:46,270 --> 00:24:52,080 Speaker 1: University offered them $ 50 million for this papyrus. They turned 370 00:24:52,130 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: Yale down. Hmm. And it ended up at the Vatican, 371 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,100 Speaker 1: and I suspect the Bodmers were trying to get out 372 00:25:01,140 --> 00:25:04,850 Speaker 1: of many millennia of purgatory with this as a gift. 373 00:25:05,490 --> 00:25:10,990 Speaker 1: So I don't know. But that museum is still under reconstruction. 374 00:25:11,010 --> 00:25:15,370 Speaker 1: It's just amazing. So very, very, very important manuscript. 375 00:25:15,890 --> 00:25:17,450 Speaker 2: That's remarkable. One of the pages of P75 has the 376 00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:22,949 Speaker 2: end of the Gospel of Luke 24 written. and the 377 00:25:22,990 --> 00:25:27,050 Speaker 2: beginning of John 1. And of course, in Luke, we're 378 00:25:27,090 --> 00:25:30,130 Speaker 2: told in Luke chapter 4, when Jesus is being tempted, 379 00:25:30,670 --> 00:25:34,690 Speaker 2: worship God alone. And then full circle at the end, 380 00:25:34,910 --> 00:25:38,380 Speaker 2: on the same manuscript as John 1.1, it has them 381 00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 2: worshiping God. So I think you have two attestations in 382 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 2: P75 of Luke and John 1 of his deity, just 383 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,260 Speaker 2: to further solidify your case. 384 00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:50,140 Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah. 385 00:25:50,810 --> 00:25:53,070 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about one more. And by 386 00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:55,830 Speaker 2: the way, I've mentioned this. I've started to work with 387 00:25:56,010 --> 00:25:59,580 Speaker 2: Manuscript Shop because they make these facsimiles. And so I 388 00:25:59,619 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 2: just got one of P66, which is one of my 389 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,750 Speaker 2: favorite manuscripts because I've written on the resurrection. I teach 390 00:26:07,790 --> 00:26:11,300 Speaker 2: a class on the resurrection. And this is a very 391 00:26:11,380 --> 00:26:14,060 Speaker 2: significant manuscript. I would love for you to tell us 392 00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 2: about P46. 393 00:26:14,780 --> 00:26:16,899 Speaker 1: Do you mean P46? 394 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,659 Speaker 2: Yeah, if I said P66, I meant P46. 395 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:20,940 Speaker 1: Thank you. Very important. 396 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 2: Tell us about P46 and why that one is so significant. 397 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:32,820 Speaker 1: P46 is early 3rd century, maybe 2nd century in the 398 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,460 Speaker 1: University of Michigan where they have 30 of the 86 leaves. 399 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: of this largest papyrus manuscript of any of the New Testament. 400 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,210 Speaker 1: They dated it to 150 originally. Now it could be 401 00:26:46,670 --> 00:26:48,990 Speaker 1: in the second century, but it's probably best to call 402 00:26:49,030 --> 00:26:52,870 Speaker 1: it early third, so in the early 200s. And what's 403 00:26:52,930 --> 00:26:56,940 Speaker 1: remarkable about this is that all 86 leaves are almost 404 00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,340 Speaker 1: completely intact. Typically 80 to 90% of the original text 405 00:27:03,060 --> 00:27:06,610 Speaker 1: is still there. It was found in the 1930s along 406 00:27:06,619 --> 00:27:10,630 Speaker 1: with P 45 and P 47. And it includes nine 407 00:27:10,650 --> 00:27:14,609 Speaker 1: of Paul's letters, which, which have Hebrews as well. That 408 00:27:14,670 --> 00:27:17,580 Speaker 1: was always associated with Paul. And remind me to tell 409 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,340 Speaker 1: you sometime about Hebrews struggle for canonicity. It's a fascinating story. 410 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,060 Speaker 1: And we see some things in the manuscripts that reveal 411 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,900 Speaker 1: some things. Hebrews, for example, in P 46 comes right 412 00:27:27,940 --> 00:27:33,050 Speaker 1: after Romans. And so, um, The Greeks thought it was 413 00:27:33,170 --> 00:27:39,290 Speaker 1: by Paul, the Latins did not, but anyway. Galatians. This 414 00:27:39,350 --> 00:27:44,610 Speaker 1: manuscript has Paul's earliest letter Galatians, which I would date 415 00:27:44,670 --> 00:27:49,149 Speaker 1: to about AD 48, just before the Jerusalem Council in 416 00:27:49,210 --> 00:27:52,649 Speaker 1: Acts 15, which was AD 49, and Galatians may have 417 00:27:52,670 --> 00:27:56,730 Speaker 1: been as much as a year earlier. This has Galatians 2, 1-9, 418 00:27:56,740 --> 00:28:05,250 Speaker 1: and 12-21, and Here in Galatians 2, in verses 2, 5, 419 00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: and 7, the word euangelion, gospel, is mentioned. And Paul 420 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:15,460 Speaker 1: says that his gospel was confirmed by Peter, James, and John. Now, 421 00:28:15,580 --> 00:28:20,060 Speaker 1: whenever Paul preached the gospel, it always included the resurrection. 422 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,860 Speaker 1: There is no gospel without the resurrection of Jesus. So 423 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,700 Speaker 1: this is strong affirmation that what Paul wrote in Galatians 424 00:28:28,060 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: that we see in P46 is is intact, and it's 425 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: the same as what other manuscripts say. So it's very 426 00:28:34,220 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: strong evidence that the resurrection is what Paul taught. Galatians 427 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,300 Speaker 1: is one of those seven letters that even the most 428 00:28:43,420 --> 00:28:46,620 Speaker 1: skeptical scholars say, yeah, this is by Paul. We admit it. 429 00:28:47,780 --> 00:28:51,490 Speaker 1: There's another passage, though, that I think may be perhaps 430 00:28:52,090 --> 00:28:56,390 Speaker 1: even more important. That's 1 Corinthians 15, 1 through 6. 431 00:28:56,390 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: This is dated about six years after about A.D. 54, 432 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,740 Speaker 1: and here Paul speaks about the kerygma of the Jerusalem apostles. 433 00:29:06,260 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: That is, it was handed down to me that Jesus 434 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: died and rose from the dead on the third day, 435 00:29:12,220 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: and he goes on and talks about this. Now, this 436 00:29:15,790 --> 00:29:20,110 Speaker 1: kerygma of the Jerusalem apostles, this gospel that they were preaching, 437 00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:27,930 Speaker 1: virtually every scholar, including skeptical scholars, say this happened no 438 00:29:27,970 --> 00:29:32,390 Speaker 1: later than AD 34 or 35. So we're talking about 439 00:29:32,410 --> 00:29:37,530 Speaker 1: a kerygma, the gospel message in 1 Corinthians 15 that 440 00:29:37,570 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: goes back to the early 30s. And I think Jesus 441 00:29:40,860 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: died in AD 33. So we're talking about a very, 442 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:48,090 Speaker 1: very early testimony to the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And 443 00:29:48,110 --> 00:29:51,930 Speaker 1: we see it in P46. That's unbelievable. 444 00:29:52,030 --> 00:29:54,150 Speaker 2: I was hoping that you brought in that passage on 445 00:29:54,150 --> 00:29:57,610 Speaker 2: 1 Corinthians 15, because of course, Paul is passing on 446 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:04,300 Speaker 2: what was delivered to him about Jesus dying, Jesus being buried, 447 00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:08,020 Speaker 2: rising again on the third day and appearing to people. 448 00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:11,820 Speaker 2: And it's this creed that predates when Paul wrote it 449 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,500 Speaker 2: sometime in the mid fifties. And so P 46 has 450 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:21,340 Speaker 2: the earliest physical copy of this, which you said probably 451 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 2: late second century, maybe early third century P 46 would be. 452 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:26,140 Speaker 3: Yeah. 453 00:30:26,830 --> 00:30:32,750 Speaker 1: Okay. unbelievable. Now, let me add, in 1 Corinthians 15, 454 00:30:32,750 --> 00:30:36,950 Speaker 1: Paul also says here about the— he speaks about the 500 455 00:30:36,950 --> 00:30:40,830 Speaker 1: brothers and sisters, more than 500 brothers and sisters at 456 00:30:40,950 --> 00:30:44,890 Speaker 1: one time saw the risen Jesus. Now, this is, I think, 457 00:30:44,970 --> 00:30:50,140 Speaker 1: the biggest stumbling block for skeptics on the resurrection. We 458 00:30:50,220 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: today do not have any way to produce mass hallucination. 459 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,670 Speaker 1: There's no drug that can produce a hallucination that everybody believes. 460 00:30:58,730 --> 00:31:02,510 Speaker 1: And Paul goes on and he says, most of whom 461 00:31:03,290 --> 00:31:06,950 Speaker 1: are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. Most of 462 00:31:06,990 --> 00:31:10,820 Speaker 1: these more than 500 brothers and sisters are still alive. Well, 463 00:31:10,860 --> 00:31:15,220 Speaker 1: how did he know that? Well, he visited Jerusalem in 464 00:31:15,300 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 1: Acts 15, AD 49, and perhaps a little bit later 465 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,650 Speaker 1: as well. He met many of these people, and he 466 00:31:22,750 --> 00:31:26,190 Speaker 1: heard about the others, so he verified it himself. This 467 00:31:26,270 --> 00:31:28,630 Speaker 1: is remarkable. How in the world can you have a 468 00:31:28,690 --> 00:31:33,170 Speaker 1: mass hallucination, and then Paul can say, I met these people, 469 00:31:33,210 --> 00:31:35,709 Speaker 1: we talked, and of course the Gospels say how Jesus 470 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: ate with his disciples after the resurrection, this kind of thing. 471 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,650 Speaker 1: It's very, very powerful evidence. I love it. 472 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:48,250 Speaker 2: Let's shift to another early manuscript, which is P45. Tell 473 00:31:48,270 --> 00:31:50,130 Speaker 2: us about that manuscript and its significance. 474 00:31:50,210 --> 00:31:57,500 Speaker 1: If you will. P45 is a manuscript that was written 475 00:31:57,540 --> 00:32:00,980 Speaker 1: sometime in the third century. It only has 32 leaves. 476 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: And by the way, when we published our two-volume set 477 00:32:05,260 --> 00:32:09,710 Speaker 1: of these early papyri, we found a couple of fragments 478 00:32:09,970 --> 00:32:13,310 Speaker 1: that we knew were from P45, but we didn't know 479 00:32:13,450 --> 00:32:16,070 Speaker 1: where they belonged in P45. And now we do. So 480 00:32:16,810 --> 00:32:19,750 Speaker 1: One of our scholars, Stratton Latterwig, was able to identify 481 00:32:19,770 --> 00:32:22,370 Speaker 1: it and place it in there. So this is a 482 00:32:22,450 --> 00:32:29,670 Speaker 1: pretty significant find. This has portions of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, 483 00:32:30,070 --> 00:32:34,990 Speaker 1: and Acts, but not in that order. The order originally 484 00:32:35,030 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: was Matthew, John, Luke, Mark, and Acts. That's called the 485 00:32:41,060 --> 00:32:45,340 Speaker 1: Western order, and we believe— that it was the earliest 486 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: order of the gospels. Why would it be earlier than 487 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,380 Speaker 1: the Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John order? The reason is 488 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: because it's the apostles first, Matthew and John, then Luke, 489 00:32:57,620 --> 00:33:01,980 Speaker 1: who gets his gospel while Paul is in prison. He's 490 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,469 Speaker 1: interviewing people throughout Israel. And then Mark, who gets his 491 00:33:06,510 --> 00:33:11,070 Speaker 1: gospel from Peter. But the Western order, I think this 492 00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:15,450 Speaker 1: is as there's an emerging canon consciousness, and it must 493 00:33:15,490 --> 00:33:18,690 Speaker 1: have been in the very, very earliest times. I think 494 00:33:18,950 --> 00:33:23,380 Speaker 1: late first century is probably when the Western order started 495 00:33:23,420 --> 00:33:28,580 Speaker 1: to come out, and it was before the Gospels were 496 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:33,980 Speaker 1: all fully recognized as Scripture. Obviously, they believed that the 497 00:33:34,020 --> 00:33:37,230 Speaker 1: words of Jesus were Scripture, but the Western order puts 498 00:33:37,270 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: the apostles first almost as if to say, their testimony 499 00:33:40,780 --> 00:33:44,870 Speaker 1: is more important than Luke or Mark. But that's P32. 500 00:33:45,660 --> 00:33:49,310 Speaker 1: It's the oldest manuscript of Mark that we have, except 501 00:33:49,430 --> 00:33:52,670 Speaker 1: for a very small fragment that was published just eight 502 00:33:52,730 --> 00:33:57,750 Speaker 1: years ago, Papyrus 137. And it has a text that's 503 00:33:57,870 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: independent to a degree, but a really, really important manuscript 504 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,860 Speaker 1: and very, very difficult to read in a number of places. 505 00:34:07,860 --> 00:34:10,779 Speaker 1: Parts of it look like shredded wheat. And we've been 506 00:34:10,820 --> 00:34:14,799 Speaker 1: able to use some computer enhancing tools to identify what 507 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,660 Speaker 1: the text actually said in a number of places. And 508 00:34:18,890 --> 00:34:23,270 Speaker 1: it's a real challenge, but a very, very important manuscript. 509 00:34:24,330 --> 00:34:25,410 Speaker 1: I love it. Super helpful. 510 00:34:25,450 --> 00:34:27,310 Speaker 2: Now, I do have to add a bonus on here, 511 00:34:27,350 --> 00:34:30,250 Speaker 2: I hope is okay, because 1 Peter 3.15 is like 512 00:34:30,290 --> 00:34:32,990 Speaker 2: the most beloved passage for apologists. 513 00:34:33,700 --> 00:34:33,950 Speaker 1: Yeah. 514 00:34:34,050 --> 00:34:35,050 Speaker 2: Can you tell us about P72? 515 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 1: P72. But P72 has 1 and 2 Peter and Jude 516 00:34:41,219 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: in it in their entirety. It's the oldest manuscript that does. 517 00:34:44,860 --> 00:34:49,160 Speaker 1: It's dated late 3rd, perhaps early 4th century. But P72 518 00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: also has some other material that's not Christian in the 519 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,590 Speaker 1: end of it. So it's an interesting manuscript. Did the 520 00:34:57,610 --> 00:35:00,509 Speaker 1: scribe regard these things as scripture? Did he regard them 521 00:35:00,590 --> 00:35:05,489 Speaker 1: as important? Why didn't he combine all these books or 522 00:35:06,130 --> 00:35:11,140 Speaker 1: manuscripts in the same place? But P72 has 1 Peter 523 00:35:11,140 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 1: 3.15 that be ready to give an answer to anyone 524 00:35:14,380 --> 00:35:17,180 Speaker 1: who asks you. It's dealing with the apologists. Well, you 525 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,930 Speaker 1: can quote it better than I can. No, keep going. 526 00:35:22,820 --> 00:35:25,029 Speaker 2: No, I hear you. But sanctify Christ as Lord in 527 00:35:25,050 --> 00:35:27,590 Speaker 2: your heart. Always be ready with an answer for the 528 00:35:27,630 --> 00:35:30,150 Speaker 2: hope within. Give it with gentleness and with respect. 529 00:35:30,989 --> 00:35:34,669 Speaker 1: There you go. Okay, it's all there. So I think 530 00:35:34,730 --> 00:35:37,890 Speaker 1: it's important to show that This was a part of 531 00:35:37,950 --> 00:35:42,910 Speaker 1: how the Christians viewed Scripture and how important 1 Peter was. 532 00:35:42,910 --> 00:35:49,339 Speaker 1: 1 Peter was accepted very early on. 2 Peter had 533 00:35:49,420 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: some struggles. 2 Peter had the biggest struggles of any 534 00:35:52,820 --> 00:35:56,989 Speaker 1: New Testament book to get accepted into the canon. And 535 00:35:57,030 --> 00:36:00,430 Speaker 1: that's for another topic someday. I believe Peter wrote both 536 00:36:00,469 --> 00:36:00,650 Speaker 1: of them. 537 00:36:01,540 --> 00:36:03,340 Speaker 2: Oh, I would love to explore that in Hebrew. So 538 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:04,900 Speaker 2: I'll have to have you back and go down some 539 00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,839 Speaker 2: of these rabbit trails, Dan. But are there any early 540 00:36:07,890 --> 00:36:10,650 Speaker 2: manuscripts I should have asked you about? You brought in 541 00:36:10,730 --> 00:36:12,490 Speaker 2: some of the other ones, but any you're like, Sean, 542 00:36:12,510 --> 00:36:14,149 Speaker 2: this has got to be a part when we talk 543 00:36:14,170 --> 00:36:15,890 Speaker 2: about early manuscripts that I didn't ask. 544 00:36:15,930 --> 00:36:17,989 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's six of them. 545 00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:19,290 Speaker 3: Oh, wow. 546 00:36:19,489 --> 00:36:27,090 Speaker 1: Okay. All of which are second or perhaps early third century. 547 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:34,779 Speaker 1: So the first four... are considered 2nd century. P90, which 548 00:36:34,820 --> 00:36:41,089 Speaker 1: has John 1836 through 1907, is another early manuscript of John. 549 00:36:41,110 --> 00:36:44,150 Speaker 1: So here you have this P52, and if you have 550 00:36:44,230 --> 00:36:48,330 Speaker 1: P90 that's also 2nd century, then that gives us, we 551 00:36:48,370 --> 00:36:51,049 Speaker 1: have more papyri on John than any other New Testament book. 552 00:36:51,510 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 1: It gives us strong evidence that what we have in 553 00:36:54,920 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: John is a date before A.D. 100. I would date 554 00:37:00,060 --> 00:37:04,420 Speaker 1: John in the mid-60s, actually, for various reasons. But at 555 00:37:04,460 --> 00:37:10,610 Speaker 1: least virtually everyone recognizes this is a first century document. P98, 556 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,670 Speaker 1: which doesn't have a lot of material, and it's difficult 557 00:37:14,690 --> 00:37:18,810 Speaker 1: to read it. It's Revelation 1, 13 through 2, 1. 558 00:37:18,810 --> 00:37:21,370 Speaker 1: And scholars date this as the second century with a 559 00:37:21,430 --> 00:37:26,700 Speaker 1: question mark, but they don't give any other suggested date. P104. 560 00:37:28,210 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: is also 2nd century, and that's got Matthew 21, a 561 00:37:30,950 --> 00:37:35,400 Speaker 1: few verses in Matthew 21. And then P129 is considered 562 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,700 Speaker 1: 2nd century. The dates I'm giving, by the way, are 563 00:37:37,980 --> 00:37:41,779 Speaker 1: all from the Institute for New Testament Textual Research. There 564 00:37:41,820 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 1: was one scholar who said, I was reading him last night, 565 00:37:45,940 --> 00:37:50,470 Speaker 1: and he said there are 25 New Testament papyri that 566 00:37:50,510 --> 00:37:55,710 Speaker 1: are dated to the 2nd century or to AD 200. 567 00:37:55,710 --> 00:37:59,020 Speaker 1: That's a really high number. And I think it's a 568 00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: little bit too high. I think we might have as 569 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,420 Speaker 1: many as a dozen that are 2nd century or up 570 00:38:05,460 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 1: to the era of 200. Now, P37, this is this fragment. 571 00:38:12,180 --> 00:38:18,580 Speaker 1: It was formerly called the 1st Century Mark Fragment, which 572 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,140 Speaker 1: I got in a lot of trouble for because I 573 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:26,450 Speaker 1: spoke about it in my debate with Bart Ehrman at 574 00:38:26,510 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: his school at uh, uh, Chapel Hill. Uh, I'm sorry. Uh, 575 00:38:33,140 --> 00:38:34,240 Speaker 1: North Carolina. 576 00:38:34,260 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. 577 00:38:35,180 --> 00:38:35,339 Speaker 2: Yeah. 578 00:38:35,820 --> 00:38:40,819 Speaker 1: And, uh, I said a very reputable papyrologist dated this 579 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 1: to the first century. And a little bit after that debate, 580 00:38:45,820 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: in order for me to actually see images of the manuscript, 581 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: I had to sign a non-disclosure agreement and I had 582 00:38:52,180 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: to keep my mouth shut for six years. That was 583 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,190 Speaker 1: 2012 was the debate. And people were angry at me. 584 00:38:59,290 --> 00:39:02,009 Speaker 1: Why don't you tell us more about this? Well, when 585 00:39:02,030 --> 00:39:05,830 Speaker 1: it was finally published, it was considered a late 2nd century, 586 00:39:06,270 --> 00:39:09,990 Speaker 1: perhaps early 3rd century, but it becomes our oldest fragment 587 00:39:10,010 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: from Mark's gospel. It's still remarkably important. But what's significant 588 00:39:14,940 --> 00:39:21,100 Speaker 1: here is that the scholar, significant for my own reputation, 589 00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: the scholar who initially dated it to the 1st century 590 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:28,980 Speaker 1: changed his mind before I was told about it by 591 00:39:29,070 --> 00:39:32,820 Speaker 1: someone else. And that someone else knew that the scholar 592 00:39:32,860 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: had changed his mind and he didn't tell me. So 593 00:39:35,780 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: I got a lot of egg on my face for that. 594 00:39:38,100 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: And I own up to it for not having verified 595 00:39:41,140 --> 00:39:46,049 Speaker 1: the information myself. That's fair. Okay. The last one is 596 00:39:46,070 --> 00:39:53,610 Speaker 1: one you probably do not know about. It's Oxyrhynchus Papyrus 5575. Okay. 597 00:39:53,730 --> 00:39:56,310 Speaker 1: This was published about three years ago. I was one 598 00:39:56,330 --> 00:40:00,010 Speaker 1: of the co-editors, along with Jeff Fish and Mike Holmes. 599 00:40:01,070 --> 00:40:07,660 Speaker 1: And it's late 2nd century. Now, it's not a Gospel 600 00:40:07,780 --> 00:40:12,100 Speaker 1: or New Testament manuscript explicitly. What it is is a 601 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:17,870 Speaker 1: syncretistic text. It is our oldest manuscript ever. from the 602 00:40:17,950 --> 00:40:20,530 Speaker 1: Sermon on the Mount. It's got portions of Matthew 6 603 00:40:20,530 --> 00:40:25,630 Speaker 1: in it. It's remarkable. That's cool. And it has portions 604 00:40:25,710 --> 00:40:29,609 Speaker 1: from the Gospel of Thomas in it as well. Now, 605 00:40:29,770 --> 00:40:33,290 Speaker 1: it's a syncretistic text in that it has Matthew and 606 00:40:33,370 --> 00:40:37,390 Speaker 1: Thomas and portions from Luke's Sermon on the Plain. And 607 00:40:37,450 --> 00:40:42,010 Speaker 1: so this was produced by someone who was probably moving 608 00:40:42,170 --> 00:40:48,130 Speaker 1: towards Gnosticism. And Gospel of Thomas is this It's a 609 00:40:48,210 --> 00:40:52,490 Speaker 1: proto-gnostic kind of a gospel. And at the same time, 610 00:40:53,350 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: what this shows is that the gospel of Thomas was 611 00:40:58,860 --> 00:41:02,859 Speaker 1: added to this text of the gospels by someone who 612 00:41:03,020 --> 00:41:08,879 Speaker 1: recognized that Matthew and Luke already existed. Then the gospel 613 00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:12,660 Speaker 1: of Thomas was added on top of that. This is 614 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:19,180 Speaker 1: extraordinarily important. It's... Oxo-Renkins Papyrus 5575. We published it, I think, 615 00:41:19,219 --> 00:41:23,700 Speaker 1: about three years ago. And I can send you the text. 616 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 1: If you'll ask me later, I can send you the images. 617 00:41:27,460 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 2: I would love that. 618 00:41:28,980 --> 00:41:29,219 Speaker 1: Yeah. 619 00:41:29,739 --> 00:41:30,919 Speaker 2: I had not heard of that. 620 00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: I didn't think you had. 621 00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 3: Yeah. 622 00:41:33,660 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 2: No, I appreciate that. 623 00:41:34,739 --> 00:41:35,260 Speaker 1: That's fun. 624 00:41:36,180 --> 00:41:39,060 Speaker 2: Man, Dan, time is flying by. I have so many 625 00:41:39,100 --> 00:41:42,100 Speaker 2: more questions for you. What you said about Hebrews, potentially, 626 00:41:42,260 --> 00:41:44,310 Speaker 2: the authorship. What you said about John in the 60s. 627 00:41:45,570 --> 00:41:48,549 Speaker 2: We're going to have to have you back to explore 628 00:41:48,610 --> 00:41:50,530 Speaker 2: some of these. And folks, if you're watching or listening 629 00:41:50,550 --> 00:41:52,950 Speaker 2: to this, what questions would you have for Dan Wallace 630 00:41:52,969 --> 00:41:55,029 Speaker 2: that if we did a show on this, it would 631 00:41:55,070 --> 00:41:58,630 Speaker 2: be really helpful to just inform, entertain, educate you. I 632 00:41:59,430 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 2: would love to know that. But maybe two more questions 633 00:42:02,700 --> 00:42:05,899 Speaker 2: before we wrap up. What textual variant do you think 634 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 2: presents the strongest challenge to an evangelical or conservative understanding 635 00:42:11,660 --> 00:42:13,880 Speaker 2: of biblical preservation, and how do you deal with it? 636 00:42:15,489 --> 00:42:19,109 Speaker 1: Well, you're probably not going to like my answer. But 637 00:42:19,530 --> 00:42:26,390 Speaker 1: about 40 years ago, I published an article called Inspiration, Preservation, 638 00:42:26,410 --> 00:42:31,330 Speaker 1: or yeah, I think Inspiration, Preservations, and Inerrancy, something like that. 639 00:42:32,210 --> 00:42:35,670 Speaker 1: And in that article, I pointed out that there is 640 00:42:35,730 --> 00:42:40,859 Speaker 1: no biblical basis for a doctrine of preservation. It is 641 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,810 Speaker 1: a doctrine that came up during the Reformation era. We 642 00:42:44,850 --> 00:42:47,190 Speaker 1: don't find it in the early creeds. We just don't 643 00:42:47,250 --> 00:42:52,170 Speaker 1: find anybody who's arguing that God has preserved the text. 644 00:42:52,890 --> 00:42:56,739 Speaker 1: And here's how I developed this. I noted that in 645 00:42:56,780 --> 00:42:59,259 Speaker 1: the Old Testament, there are numerous places where we have 646 00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:03,259 Speaker 1: to have conjectural emendation. And a number of these conjectures 647 00:43:03,580 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: were later confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls. But at 648 00:43:06,260 --> 00:43:10,299 Speaker 1: the time, they were conjectures. So we know that at 649 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,669 Speaker 1: least at that time, God had not preserved every word 650 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:16,739 Speaker 1: of the original. Now, in the New Testament, there are 651 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,629 Speaker 1: maybe only a couple of places where a conjecture would 652 00:43:20,670 --> 00:43:24,090 Speaker 1: be the right way to treat the text. I'm skeptical 653 00:43:24,230 --> 00:43:28,069 Speaker 1: of them. But at the same time, you can't have 654 00:43:28,230 --> 00:43:30,509 Speaker 1: a Marcionite view of this doctrine where it's true for 655 00:43:30,530 --> 00:43:32,890 Speaker 1: the New Testament, but not for the Old. Our view 656 00:43:32,930 --> 00:43:36,670 Speaker 1: of the Bible is the same for both Testaments. So 657 00:43:36,890 --> 00:43:39,850 Speaker 1: I would argue, instead of having a biblical doctrine that 658 00:43:39,930 --> 00:43:44,819 Speaker 1: is empirically incorrect. And biblically speaking, the texts and the 659 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,200 Speaker 1: passages that seem to affirm this do not really say 660 00:43:47,260 --> 00:43:50,810 Speaker 1: what scholars or those who hold to it say. But 661 00:43:50,850 --> 00:43:54,650 Speaker 1: I would argue that historically, we can argue that God 662 00:43:54,790 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 1: has preserved his texts almost completely intact. Not entirely, but 663 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:05,819 Speaker 1: almost completely intact. And I'd say 99.999% intact, something like that. 664 00:44:09,460 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 2: That's a lot of confidence. So I'm good with that, actually, 665 00:44:12,620 --> 00:44:15,319 Speaker 2: believe it or not. Now, one last question for you, Dan. 666 00:44:15,820 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 2: Maybe just take a step back. What's the most significant 667 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 2: find that you and your team have done? In other words, 668 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,459 Speaker 2: like you sit down at a meal and somebody goes, Dan, 669 00:44:23,500 --> 00:44:26,399 Speaker 2: tell me the coolest thing that you discovered, like that 670 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,580 Speaker 2: moment that just excites you. Tell us that story. 671 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,259 Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if I could do this quickly. 672 00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:38,319 Speaker 1: There's actually four or five things I'd like to say. 673 00:44:38,739 --> 00:44:39,819 Speaker 1: I'll try to be brief on them. 674 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:40,479 Speaker 3: Okay. 675 00:44:41,340 --> 00:44:45,279 Speaker 1: First of all, when we went to Albania, we were 676 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,950 Speaker 1: going to go there to Tirana, the capital, at their 677 00:44:49,270 --> 00:44:54,910 Speaker 1: national library and museum. And we were going to shoot 678 00:44:54,910 --> 00:44:58,029 Speaker 1: 13 manuscripts that we knew they had. When the team 679 00:44:58,070 --> 00:45:04,170 Speaker 1: got there, dozens more were discovered. This made news throughout 680 00:45:04,210 --> 00:45:07,299 Speaker 1: the world. Uh, it's made the news in more than 681 00:45:07,340 --> 00:45:10,259 Speaker 1: a hundred international newspapers. I was actually interviewed by the 682 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:14,580 Speaker 1: wall street journal about the discoveries. And it's, uh, we're 683 00:45:14,620 --> 00:45:17,560 Speaker 1: still trying to determine all that we've discovered. We took 684 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,140 Speaker 1: all the photographs. We're, we're determining a number of these things, 685 00:45:20,500 --> 00:45:24,140 Speaker 1: but there've been whole volumes published on these discoveries and 686 00:45:24,180 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: what the manuscripts have to say. Very, very important. The 687 00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: second thing was in 2004, Albania was 2007 and eight, uh, 688 00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:39,370 Speaker 1: in 2004. when we were working at the Ecumenical Patriarchate 689 00:45:39,469 --> 00:45:43,050 Speaker 1: of Constantinople, or Istanbul, but I won't call it Istanbul, 690 00:45:44,910 --> 00:45:49,450 Speaker 1: we discovered a palimpsest, a manuscript that has been scraped 691 00:45:49,570 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 1: over and text was written on top of it. It's 692 00:45:52,700 --> 00:45:56,400 Speaker 1: the undertext, which by definition is always older. It was 693 00:45:56,460 --> 00:45:59,380 Speaker 1: just two leaves in the back of a book, and 694 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,580 Speaker 1: it had Mark chapter 3 and Mark chapter 6. And 695 00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:08,060 Speaker 1: this has become, the oldest manuscript that we have discovered, 696 00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:13,950 Speaker 1: and it's the only majuscule manuscript that we have discovered. 697 00:46:14,070 --> 00:46:17,710 Speaker 1: Until recently, we discovered a majuscule lectionary, but that's a 698 00:46:17,730 --> 00:46:20,989 Speaker 1: different category. This manuscript should be dated somewhere between the 699 00:46:21,270 --> 00:46:25,090 Speaker 1: 7th and 9th century. Very, very fascinating. But we haven't 700 00:46:25,170 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: done multispectral imaging on it, and we need to do 701 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,240 Speaker 1: that one of these days when we can go back 702 00:46:31,780 --> 00:46:34,839 Speaker 1: to see all the details of what it has. Okay. Okay. 703 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:43,029 Speaker 1: Third thing, multispectral imaging, which is using the wavelengths of 704 00:46:44,670 --> 00:46:48,690 Speaker 1: light from infrared to ultraviolet. It's a very complex process. 705 00:46:49,250 --> 00:46:53,870 Speaker 1: We take dozens of pictures of a particular page, and 706 00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:58,950 Speaker 1: these different light waves are going to show us what's 707 00:46:59,690 --> 00:47:02,310 Speaker 1: in the text that cannot be seen by the naked eye. 708 00:47:02,989 --> 00:47:10,230 Speaker 1: It's very promising equipment for alum tests, for water-damaged manuscripts, 709 00:47:10,290 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: for fire-damaged manuscripts. And it was originally developed for NASA 710 00:47:16,060 --> 00:47:20,860 Speaker 1: to see camouflaged military installation from satellites. And then it's 711 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,940 Speaker 1: been applied to the Dead Sea Scrolls. Right now, we 712 00:47:24,980 --> 00:47:29,219 Speaker 1: have a team in Oslo that is shooting some of 713 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:33,380 Speaker 1: those very Dead Sea Scrolls, including one where the text 714 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,520 Speaker 1: just could not be read. Just a little bit of 715 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 1: it was read. It's called the Genesis Apocryphon. Very important. 716 00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,980 Speaker 1: But they're shooting it with this MSI equipment. And you 717 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: can go onto Facebook and type in CSNTM, and you 718 00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:50,489 Speaker 1: can see some of these videos that we've posted on 719 00:47:50,550 --> 00:47:53,569 Speaker 1: the excitement that is being discovered in Oslo. I could 720 00:47:53,610 --> 00:47:55,310 Speaker 1: go on and give you a couple more, but let's 721 00:47:55,350 --> 00:47:57,230 Speaker 1: just leave it at that because I know our time 722 00:47:57,370 --> 00:48:01,560 Speaker 1: is pretty brief. Let me just mention one other thing. 723 00:48:01,900 --> 00:48:04,280 Speaker 1: This was the first time I found such a manuscript, 724 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 1: but it was already known, but it was the first 725 00:48:06,660 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 1: time that I actually saw one. And I'd like to 726 00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,480 Speaker 1: conclude with this. At the end of a particular manuscript 727 00:48:13,540 --> 00:48:16,730 Speaker 1: of the New Testament, there's a colophon. A colophon is 728 00:48:16,770 --> 00:48:21,010 Speaker 1: where a scribe writes a personal note. And this colophon says, 729 00:48:21,570 --> 00:48:26,910 Speaker 1: this is by... the writer and calligrapher Andrew, who wrote this, 730 00:48:27,010 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 1: and he gives the date, and it's February 1079. I 731 00:48:29,890 --> 00:48:36,950 Speaker 1: won't get into any details further than that. But he says, 732 00:48:37,870 --> 00:48:41,890 Speaker 1: if I missed anything in what I wrote, for the 733 00:48:41,910 --> 00:48:45,370 Speaker 1: sake of Christ, please forgive me. And then he goes 734 00:48:45,489 --> 00:48:48,330 Speaker 1: on and he says, the hand that wrote this is 735 00:48:48,510 --> 00:48:52,030 Speaker 1: rotting in the grave. but the words will stand until 736 00:48:52,050 --> 00:48:56,719 Speaker 1: the fullness of time. Over a thousand years ago, and 737 00:48:56,739 --> 00:49:00,239 Speaker 1: I'm looking at that manuscript and reading it plainly. He 738 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:04,980 Speaker 1: was right. That has become the motto for CSNTM. Our 739 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,280 Speaker 1: business is to get all of the Greek New Testament 740 00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:11,089 Speaker 1: manuscripts digitized, made available for free on the internet forever. 741 00:49:11,950 --> 00:49:15,690 Speaker 1: And at some point, the hands that took the pictures 742 00:49:15,750 --> 00:49:18,230 Speaker 1: will be rotting in the grave. But we hope that 743 00:49:18,250 --> 00:49:20,580 Speaker 1: those images will last till the full of time. 744 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,200 Speaker 2: That is a mic drop moment to end on. And 745 00:49:24,219 --> 00:49:27,460 Speaker 2: of course, we know Jesus said the scriptures cannot be broken. 746 00:49:27,500 --> 00:49:28,100 Speaker 1: They are true. 747 00:49:28,340 --> 00:49:32,140 Speaker 2: They will be fulfilled. And they come from the mouth 748 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 2: of God. So I love what you're doing at CSNTM, 749 00:49:35,180 --> 00:49:38,360 Speaker 2: which is the Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts. 750 00:49:38,989 --> 00:49:41,259 Speaker 2: If you've stayed with us this far in this podcast 751 00:49:41,300 --> 00:49:44,500 Speaker 2: or this video, you obviously love manuscript. So check out 752 00:49:44,540 --> 00:49:47,919 Speaker 2: what Dan and his team are doing. Think about supporting them. Dan, 753 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,100 Speaker 2: I love that you have history at Biola and Talbot 754 00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,400 Speaker 2: going way back. And especially that you're motivated by a 755 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,560 Speaker 2: heart for evangelism. It's just right at home with what 756 00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:58,540 Speaker 2: we do here in this channel. I do want to 757 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,359 Speaker 2: let people know that I'm working and I know they 758 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 2: sent you some of these facsimiles, but manuscript shop. I'm 759 00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,439 Speaker 2: working with them to make available some of these like P46. 760 00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:13,969 Speaker 2: I mean, it's incredible just the care and accuracy on 761 00:50:14,070 --> 00:50:17,350 Speaker 2: real ancient papyri that you can hold and share and 762 00:50:17,390 --> 00:50:20,530 Speaker 2: talk about. So many of the ones that you mentioned 763 00:50:20,570 --> 00:50:23,430 Speaker 2: today we have available. So if people are interested, check 764 00:50:23,469 --> 00:50:26,170 Speaker 2: that out. There's information below. We'd love to have you 765 00:50:26,190 --> 00:50:29,230 Speaker 2: come study apologetics with us at Biola at Talbot School 766 00:50:29,370 --> 00:50:32,350 Speaker 2: of Theology. We have full classes on the scriptures and 767 00:50:32,410 --> 00:50:36,170 Speaker 2: talk about the very topics of we discussed today. And 768 00:50:36,210 --> 00:50:38,589 Speaker 2: of course, make sure you hit subscribe because we've got 769 00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:41,410 Speaker 2: some other shows coming up, not only on Reliability Scriptures, 770 00:50:41,469 --> 00:50:46,239 Speaker 2: but The Evidence for God, Social Issues, Near-Death Experiences, and 771 00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:49,980 Speaker 2: far more you won't want to miss. Dan, appreciate it, 772 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,180 Speaker 2: my friend. We'll do this again. If you're willing and available, 773 00:50:53,260 --> 00:50:55,000 Speaker 2: I'll do it anytime. We'll have you back. 774 00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,140 Speaker 1: Okay. Thanks, Sean. Appreciate this very much. Take care. 775 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,000 Speaker 2: Hey, friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that 776 00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:05,020 Speaker 2: follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning 777 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,380 Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge 778 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:10,250 Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and 779 00:51:10,270 --> 00:51:14,630 Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every 780 00:51:14,850 --> 00:51:15,750 Speaker 2: review helps. 781 00:51:16,050 --> 00:51:18,450 Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show, brought to 782 00:51:18,489 --> 00:51:22,109 Speaker 3: you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, where 783 00:51:22,130 --> 00:51:26,280 Speaker 3: we have on-campus and online programs in apologetics, spiritual formation, 784 00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,900 Speaker 3: marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would 785 00:51:28,940 --> 00:51:31,890 Speaker 3: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and 786 00:51:31,950 --> 00:51:33,759 Speaker 3: defend the Christian faith today. 787 00:51:33,969 --> 00:51:36,360 Speaker 2: And we will see you when the next episode drops.