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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer my co host,

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Speaker 1: doctor Ashish Varma, are joined today by doctor Mark Cartez.

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Speaker 1: He is the dean of the Litfenn School of Divinity

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Speaker 1: at Wheaton College, and so we're excited to have Mark

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Speaker 1: here to talk through some really interesting topics and I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna let Ashish introduce.

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Speaker 2: So Ashish, the floor is yours.

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Speaker 3: Thanks James. First, it's great to have you here, Mark,

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Speaker 3: looking forward to Its just by way by way of

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Speaker 3: introducing the kind of guy Mark is. I think our

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Speaker 3: first real meeting was when I was defending my dissertation

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Speaker 3: and you were the chair, and I was a little

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Speaker 3: bit terrified because I was a foots out of the program,

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Speaker 3: and you were fairly new to the college, and I

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Speaker 3: didn't know what to expect, and my brief reading on it,

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Speaker 3: I had my expectations, Okay, Mark's gonna ask him about this,

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Speaker 3: and he asked me nothing I expected and everything I

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Speaker 3: didn't expect, and I was humbled. But it went all right.

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Speaker 3: And what I gained in the process was the graciousness

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Speaker 3: the way that you interacted in that setting with someone

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Speaker 3: you didn't know, with issues that I couldn't actually honestly

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Speaker 3: tell if you agree or disagreed with me. I was

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Speaker 3: just I was blown away by Okay, we eat and

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Speaker 3: got a good one here. So it was a really

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Speaker 3: easy decision to say, hey, let's get Mark on this podcast,

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Speaker 3: at least for me, and I take that as a sign.

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Speaker 4: It was kind of a jerk during that whole process.

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Speaker 3: So I guess my expectations were where Dan Tryer level

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Speaker 3: of intensity, and you know, the late Dan Tryer, who

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Speaker 3: we love, brilliant man, very pastoral, but man, he could

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Speaker 3: dig into a wound, right, He could stick his thumb

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Speaker 3: in and just press. And you weren't doing that. So

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Speaker 3: to me, you were the you were the nice one.

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Speaker 4: There all right.

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Speaker 3: But to me that sets up this because I think

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Speaker 3: that that same sort of tone comes out in me.

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Speaker 3: Mark sent us a piece from one of his books

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Speaker 3: he's written on theological anthropology quite a bit, which is

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Speaker 3: just basically talking about what are what are we? Who

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Speaker 3: are we as human beings? With a specific care to

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Speaker 3: think about before God? Right, And in reading the piece

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Speaker 3: that you wanted us to most hint owne in on,

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Speaker 3: I got that same sense from you that this is

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Speaker 3: someone who wants to get the nuances of the positions

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Speaker 3: and not caricature them, and it is generous, right even

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Speaker 3: as you took a position, by the end there was

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Speaker 3: no sense of, well, the people who discrew with me

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Speaker 3: or dumb And to me, that's that's important theological steps forward.

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Speaker 3: And so with that said, we're looking forward to diving

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Speaker 3: into this.

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Speaker 4: Topic with you.

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Speaker 3: And maybe maybe the first way to begin this is

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Speaker 3: you've spent a lot of time writing on theological anthropology.

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Speaker 3: Why that's a.

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Speaker 4: Great question, you think you're much a generous introduction, and

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Speaker 4: it's great to do with both of you. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it's kind of probably two different ways I can come

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Speaker 4: at that question. One would be like why, as in

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Speaker 4: how did I get into this, what kind of got

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Speaker 4: me interested in this in this topic in the first place,

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Speaker 4: And then maybe kind of why in the sense of

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Speaker 4: why have I kept going and continued to press into

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Speaker 4: these issues. The first one I actually have to guess

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Speaker 4: at a little bit. I've been asked that a number

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Speaker 4: of times over the years, and I can't quite figure

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Speaker 4: out exactly how I stumbled on theological anthropology as an

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Speaker 4: area of interest. I'm not sure about your experience in

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Speaker 4: theological education, but most of the schools that I'm familiar

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Speaker 4: with it kind of touched lightly on the doctrine of humanity.

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Speaker 4: In your like theology survey class, you'll do some image

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Speaker 4: of God stuff, some sin stuff. Depending on your school,

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Speaker 4: you may get into like women in ministry questions, and

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Speaker 4: that's about it, and then you kind of move on

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Speaker 4: from there. And that's really all I got in my

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Speaker 4: survey things. Somewhere along the way, I was exposed to

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Speaker 4: the fact that theological anthropology is an actual area of

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Speaker 4: Christian doctrine that people have been thinking about for a

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Speaker 4: long time, and what immediately grabbed my attention. My first

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Speaker 4: career was actually a youth ministry. I did middle school

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Speaker 4: in high school ministry for about ten years before I

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Speaker 4: went in an academic direction, and I guarantee it was

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Speaker 4: the connection between what I was doing with teenagers and

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Speaker 4: the issues that you're dealing with in anthropology that got

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Speaker 4: my attention. Is the doctrine's all about things like identity

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Speaker 4: and race and your body and sex. And I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 4: so you're telling me there's a doctrine that really is

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Speaker 4: just about youth ministry and the kinds of things I

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Speaker 4: wrestle with, Like, Okay, sure, I can do this all

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Speaker 4: day long. This sounds outstanding. That's the thing that kind

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Speaker 4: of grabbed my attention and pulled me in this direction initially.

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Speaker 4: From there, I think it's just a simple matter of

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Speaker 4: the fact that humans are fascinating and you can I'm

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Speaker 4: really not a specialist by nature. I actually do tend

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Speaker 4: to move around in topics a fair bit, so I

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Speaker 4: think it's funny that most of my writing has been

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Speaker 4: on one particular doctrine. But I do think it's because

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Speaker 4: of how fascinatingly complex humans are, and you can stay

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Speaker 4: in the area of kind of thinking about what it

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Speaker 4: means to be human and constantly be bumping into new

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Speaker 4: issues and new questions, and a number of the discipline

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Speaker 4: kind of subtopics with an anthropology are constantly moving, particularly

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Speaker 4: in this cultural moment we find ourselves in. So just

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Speaker 4: trying to keep up with everything that's happening keeps you

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Speaker 4: from getting board. So it was that it was the

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Speaker 4: youth ministry connection early on, and then it's the fascinating

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Speaker 4: and constantly shifting nature of the conversation that I think

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Speaker 4: has kept me engaged.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting like when I think about, well, I've not

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Speaker 1: done a ton in theological anthropology necessarily, but my experience

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Speaker 1: was the same as yours.

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Speaker 2: Whenever it was addressed, it was a light touch.

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Speaker 1: It was sort of like, here's theological anthropology and angelology

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Speaker 1: all in one lesson, and we're done now, right. So,

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Speaker 1: but I think where I've kind of come back around

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Speaker 1: to it is through the work on faith and the

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Speaker 1: intersection with technology and especially today, how does theological anthropology

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Speaker 1: inform the way that we should also think about technology?

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Speaker 1: How is it that we're losing humanity? And how we

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Speaker 1: ever know that if we don't really understand who we

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Speaker 1: were in the first place. That kind of idea, and

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Speaker 1: so I'm wondering how much of your work is sort

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Speaker 1: of being informed by that discussioner influenced by that discussion nowadays,

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Speaker 1: or is that at all an emphasis that you're exploring

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 4: Some of the writing I've done in technology was before

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Speaker 4: generative AI really took off and began to dominate conversations

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Speaker 4: about anthropology and technology. So my work earlier on was

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Speaker 4: more around the posthumanism transhumanism conversation, where some of the

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Speaker 4: theological resources are similar, but as in the case in

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Speaker 4: these different subtopics in anthropology, they have their own subtopics

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Speaker 4: that all require discrete answers in there. But I like

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Speaker 4: the way you framed it in that with a lot

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Speaker 4: of these conversations, I find myself that my role often

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Speaker 4: is to get people to slow down a little bit

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Speaker 4: and to realize that there are deeper and prior theological

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Speaker 4: questions that we haven't actually answered yet, at least not explicitly,

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Speaker 4: and in a way that requires kind of careful nuance

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Speaker 4: and thought that we actually need in order to rest

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Speaker 4: these things. So, like, I just hear people routinely making

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Speaker 4: really confident claims in the technology space about like we

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Speaker 4: can't do X because X will make us less human,

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Speaker 4: and then I'm wrestling with you, well, how do you

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Speaker 4: know that, like, what is your kind of theological way

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Speaker 4: of answering the question of what does it mean to

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Speaker 4: be human? That is actually informing this claim that you

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Speaker 4: have that this thing is going to make us somehow

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Speaker 4: less than the human thing that you have after and

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Speaker 4: so I'm wanting to pull us back to that prior question.

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Speaker 4: So I used to kind of summarize the doctrine of

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Speaker 4: humanity around what does it mean to be human? And

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Speaker 4: how do we flourish as human persons? Is those kind

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Speaker 4: of the two framing questions that I don't think you

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Speaker 4: can have, at least not as a Christian, really deep,

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Speaker 4: meaningful conversations about these issues unless you have a theologically

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Speaker 4: a biblically theologically informed to answer to those two questions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'd say it's interesting just your comment about

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Speaker 1: getting people to slow down and ask the prior question.

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Speaker 4: I find it's almost.

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Speaker 2: Like you have to do that in two stages.

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Speaker 1: You have to get them to slow down recognize that

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Speaker 1: there's a necessity of slow going down. On the first place,

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Speaker 1: that this notion of progress reference transhumanism, which has like

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Speaker 1: that big progress myth sort of evolutionary push towards the

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Speaker 1: posthuman that I think is informally sort of saturating a

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Speaker 1: lot of our discourse. Anyway, I don't think we're all

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Speaker 1: transhumanists necessarily, Like if everything is transhumanist, nothing is kind

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Speaker 1: of feel but there is this notion that the more

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Speaker 1: we progress, we view that as real advancement. And it's

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Speaker 1: interesting to think about, No, maybe we should just slow

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Speaker 1: down and just like take a check here for a moment,

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Speaker 1: really explore back into some of these theological resources that

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Speaker 1: might inform what we're doing right now, and then make

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Speaker 1: a decision on what progress really is and what progress

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Speaker 1: really isn't. So, yeah, those two steps seem to me

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Speaker 1: to be really intuitive within the technology space, but also

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Speaker 1: I would assume that theological anthropology space absolutely.

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Speaker 4: So, Like one of the things that I will sometimes

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Speaker 4: do in getting people to slow down is I'll point out, so,

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Speaker 4: let's think in technology and kind of transhumanist terms, that

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Speaker 4: they're actually Christian theological resources that would push against the

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Speaker 4: instincts that many of us have, at least in the

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Speaker 4: starting point in this conversation. So I hear people routinely

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Speaker 4: referring to the goodness of human embodiment and therefore we

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Speaker 4: shouldn't and then fill in the blank here transformed or

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Speaker 4: change bodies in various kinds of ways. And yet you

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Speaker 4: think about the kind of the history of Christian reflection

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Speaker 4: on the nature of the resurrection and the transformation of

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Speaker 4: human existence scatologically, where a lot of it has to

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Speaker 4: do with the fact that, sure, we're resurrected into embodied forms,

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Speaker 4: but we anticipate having transformed bodies in some significant way

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Speaker 4: that transcend our current experience of the limitations of these

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Speaker 4: bodies that we inhabit and experience now. And then I

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Speaker 4: just kind of ask like, why wouldn't that actually lend

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Speaker 4: support to a transforminist agenda where we're just seeking to

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Speaker 4: transform bodies, not in a way of trying to like

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Speaker 4: bring about the resurrection, but with imaginations that are shaped

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Speaker 4: by the fact that we have eschatological bodies that are

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Speaker 4: going to transcend current limitations. So let's seek to live

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Speaker 4: in ways that are informed by that. Now I'm not

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Speaker 4: saying that's a good way to think, but it's a

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Speaker 4: Christian theological resource that actually pushes against an intuition that

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Speaker 4: we too quickly put on the table. And I find

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Speaker 4: that if we can do that, then people can go, oh,

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Speaker 4: hold on, now I actually have two different sets of intuitions,

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Speaker 4: and I'm relying on one of them and not the

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Speaker 4: other one, And is that the right way to do that.

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Speaker 4: That's the kind of move that I find gets people

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Speaker 4: to kind of pull back and realize that these questions

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Speaker 4: are more complicated than they realize they are. I'll admit

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Speaker 4: I often think they actually I want them to land

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Speaker 4: where they started, Yeah, but with a much deeper and

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Speaker 4: firmer theological foundation that gives them a more nuanced way

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Speaker 4: of engaging the conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I just wrote a piece for Doug Estus is doing

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Speaker 1: a project on forty Bible passages related to AI, and

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Speaker 1: so I just did a piece on David's RW for

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Speaker 1: Samuel seventeen and kind of talked about this notion of

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Speaker 1: David's setting aside Saul's armor, which was the technology of

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Speaker 1: the moment, but saying that that passage is not intended

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Speaker 1: to say Israelite should never ever wear armor, and so

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Speaker 1: we've got to have a more nuanced understanding of what's

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Speaker 1: going on here. Why is it that setting the armor

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Speaker 1: aside in this moment is important. What does it say theologically?

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Speaker 1: How is the narrative trying to frame it up and

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Speaker 1: then thinking through how that idea might then extend beyond

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Speaker 1: that narrative and help us discern when to pick up

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Speaker 1: technology and when to set it aside. But it's a

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Speaker 1: more nuanced It is difficult to think that way, right,

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Speaker 1: because your criteria get real fuzzy and your boundaries are

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Speaker 1: not set anywhere right, and so it's sort of like,

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Speaker 1: how do you know, how do you really explain that

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Speaker 1: to people in a way that they are going to

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Speaker 1: be helped as opposed to as going So I can

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Speaker 1: pretty much just set my own boundary and do whatever

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Speaker 1: the heck I want.

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Speaker 2: That'd be fantastic.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, in one sense, chaotic and confusing in another sense.

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Speaker 3: You're right, right, Yeah, I find it fascinating to listen

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Speaker 3: to the way you guys are talking about the technological

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Speaker 3: piece as it relates to humanity, because I think what

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Speaker 3: subtly comes through is why it's actually really important to

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Speaker 3: think about theological anthropology. It can be an easy thing

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Speaker 3: to just say, well, what matters is the conclusion? Do

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Speaker 3: you have the right doctrinal claim? Do you have the

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Speaker 3: right sort of conclusion about what it is that we're

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Speaker 3: supposed to say about image bearers and so on and

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Speaker 3: so forth. But what you both are sort of teasing

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Speaker 3: out here is that the process is important, but that

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Speaker 3: actually says something about who we are, right, that we're

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Speaker 3: not ultimately just defined by the conclusion, but how do

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Speaker 3: we get where we're going? And sometimes having the same

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Speaker 3: conclusion that maybe we should take a step back and

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Speaker 3: slow down with regard to how optimistic we are about

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Speaker 3: AI doesn't mean that there isn't an important work of

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Speaker 3: evaluation to do there about our assumptions of what it

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Speaker 3: means to even be a person in the first place. Right,

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Speaker 3: I mean I think here of the great the legendary

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Speaker 3: coach of the Chicago Bulls, Phil Jackson, used to always

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Speaker 3: tell his players that were our goal is obviously to

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Speaker 3: win the championship, but every moment of the regular season

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Speaker 3: matters because it's a thousand step journey, and every one

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Speaker 3: of those steps is going to get you somewhere that

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Speaker 3: actually makes it more likely that you're going to win

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Speaker 3: the championship. At the endor at least put yourself in

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Speaker 3: a better position. Well, in this case, this slowing down

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Speaker 3: the thinking through the questioning of our assumptions, the interrogating

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Speaker 3: of why maybe thinking about it in a different way

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Speaker 3: might ultimately lead us to a similar conclusion, but that

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Speaker 3: conclusion is different just from the process, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I'll admit I'm a Blazer's fan that analogy

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Speaker 4: hurts just a little bit back in the day.

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Speaker 3: I'm sorry about that, But.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I try to be a little bit care

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Speaker 4: like there's a way of doing the process versus the

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Speaker 4: product move where if we're not carefully make it all

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Speaker 4: about the process, then you almost the impression that, like,

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Speaker 4: where you end up doesn't matter as long as you're

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Speaker 4: kind of going about it in certain kinds of ways.

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Speaker 4: And I know that's not where you're going. Like, I

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Speaker 4: will admit I tend to think more in terms of

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Speaker 4: process and direction than I do product. I don't like

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Speaker 4: because it makes sound like there's a point at which

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Speaker 4: you're done And I'm just not sure that in theology,

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Speaker 4: in any doctrine, but particularly not when we're just saying

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Speaker 4: something as complicated as the human person, that you ever

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Speaker 4: actually end up at a product in the sense of

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Speaker 4: like and arrived at conclusion that you're just done with.

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Speaker 4: But I absolutely think You're right that the way we

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Speaker 4: go about answering these questions is something that we are

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Speaker 4: sometimes insufficiently attentive to, and so we have a confidence

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Speaker 4: in our direction or our answer that I actually think

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Speaker 4: is misplaced because we haven't gotten through the process in

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Speaker 4: the way that isn't needed for this kind of an issue.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm thinking as for a theological analogy, one of

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Speaker 3: my professors in grad school, Steve Spencer, he used to

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Speaker 3: to throw out that often criticism of academic theology that

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Speaker 3: all we do is we sit around and we debate

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Speaker 3: how many angels stand on the head of a needle?

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Speaker 3: And he'd say, you know, as far as I know,

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Speaker 3: no one has ever actually asked that in the scholastic setting,

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Speaker 3: but I think we actually should ask it, and then

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Speaker 3: he would go into this large discussion of think about

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Speaker 3: what's entailed by that question. The question here is if

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Speaker 3: we tend to think in these material and material terms,

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Speaker 3: we tend to think that humans embody the material realm

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Speaker 3: and angels or some sort of immaterial spirit beings. Theoretically,

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Speaker 3: that means that they're not limited by the reality of

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Speaker 3: two objects occupying one space at the same time. Right, So,

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Speaker 3: how many of them could dance on the head of

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Speaker 3: a needle. And I think what that's getting at here

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Speaker 3: is that what might have sounded like a silly question

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Speaker 3: that's often caricatures for academic theologies actually saying yeah, in

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Speaker 3: the moment, certain questions might seem very academic, right did

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Speaker 3: Jesus take on follow human flesh or did he not?

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Speaker 3: But there is something going on in terms of implications,

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Speaker 3: something going on in terms of questioning our assumptions that

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Speaker 3: guides us to begin to think about that process as oh,

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Speaker 3: maybe I'm bringing more to this conversation than I realized.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's precisely where we begin to think, hopefully,

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Speaker 3: maybe this isn't too fine of a question, maybe this

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Speaker 3: isn't too academic of a question.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So I often encourage my students to think through

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Speaker 4: what they mean when they say that theology ought to

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Speaker 4: be practiced, which there's an important times in which I

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Speaker 4: want to agree with that, But that's another one that

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Speaker 4: I want to think through a little bit longer before

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Speaker 4: we affirm that too confidently. And usually there are two

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Speaker 4: things that I want them to reflect on. One of

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Speaker 4: them I use the angels dancing on the head of

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Speaker 4: pen analogy precisely, so I didn't realize this that Steve

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Speaker 4: had done that before me. That's great, And I do

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Speaker 4: kind of think like, if we actually thought that we

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Speaker 4: shared this universe with really powerful supernatural beings, we should

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Speaker 4: probably spend some time thinking about, like what are they

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Speaker 4: like and how do they inhabit the world and interact

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Speaker 4: with the material world that I interact with. I find

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Speaker 4: it interesting that doctrines of creation in like the medieval

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Speaker 4: period were often about half on angels and demons and

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Speaker 4: the heavens. And I laughed at myself be such a modernist,

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Speaker 4: as I'm working on a book in the Doctrine of Creation,

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Speaker 4: and I had been the book for months before I

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Speaker 4: even thought to ask the question of whether angels should

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Speaker 4: be in my book on the doctrine grade. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: our understanding of what's practical and what's worth thinking about

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Speaker 4: is shaped by a very modernist agenda that we're often

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Speaker 4: not even aware of. And of course I also want

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Speaker 4: them to think about the fact that some things are

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Speaker 4: worth knowing just because they're valuable and worth knowing. And

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Speaker 4: I don't have to have a practical end for wanting

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Speaker 4: to get to know my wife better, just because my

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Speaker 4: wife is amazing, and I ought to want to know

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Speaker 4: her better because I love her, and knowing her better

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Speaker 4: will lead me to love her more, which will lead

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Speaker 4: me to knowing her better. And there's a lot of

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Speaker 4: theology that ought to work that way. But I really

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Speaker 4: do want to shortcut kind of the hubris of thinking

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Speaker 4: that we know in advance of asking a question whether

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Speaker 4: the answer is going to be practical or not, because

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Speaker 4: I think you often don't know that until you've had

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Speaker 4: an opportunity to wrestle through the question. And I do

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Speaker 4: think there's a lot in feelos kntopology that works that way.

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Speaker 4: Some of the body soul debate issues can sound really speculative,

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Speaker 4: particularly if you're wired toward analytic philosophy and the resources

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Speaker 4: that get used there. You end up reading about thought

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Speaker 4: experiments on Star Trek teleportation things, and I'll admit I

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Speaker 4: find some of that kind of fun. But Hey, what

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Speaker 4: you're trying to do is you're trying to understand what

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Speaker 4: it means to have a body, and why God bodies

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Speaker 4: and raised us to have bodies, and how does it

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Speaker 4: relate to identity and why does any of that matter?

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Speaker 4: And I think those are eminently practical, even though on

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Speaker 4: the front end some of the questions can seem overly speculative.

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Speaker 1: That sort of leans me into a question that I

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Speaker 1: wanted to get to before we kind of dig into

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Speaker 1: the chapters you sent us. But one of the things

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Speaker 1: I've always been interested in is sort of the intersection

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Speaker 1: of these doctrines. And so even when we when we

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Speaker 1: learn them in like systematic theology courses or something like that,

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Speaker 1: you know, theological anthropology, seteriology, hamartiology, those are all sort

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Speaker 1: of separated out. The one I'm I've become most interested

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Speaker 1: in is sort of the bridging between theological anthropology and ecclesiology.

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Speaker 1: And I'm wondering how you've sort of balanced some of

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Speaker 1: those intersections. So you're obviously doing work on theological anthropology

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Speaker 1: and it's not the same as ecclesiology, but surely that

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Speaker 1: has to inform right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So, I mean you're picking up one of my

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Speaker 4: favorite things is the intersection of doctrines. So actually most

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Speaker 4: of my published work has been on the intersection between

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Speaker 4: theological anthropology and Christology. And one of the kind of

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Speaker 4: questions that threw me into this originally going back to

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Speaker 4: the why theologic anthropology issue is as I started to

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Speaker 4: explore theological anthropology, I felt like I would routinely run

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Speaker 4: into in the introduction to an anthropology book some claim

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Speaker 4: along the lines of Jesus reveals what it means to

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Speaker 4: be human, not just what it means to be God,

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Speaker 4: and that would feel like I would read the rest

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Speaker 4: of the book and Jesus wouldn't show up very much,

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Speaker 4: and it kind of left me wondering, like I thought

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Speaker 4: Jesus was going to matter somehow for our understanding of

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Speaker 4: what it means to be human. So a lot of

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Speaker 4: it with me trying to tease out how that works.

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Speaker 4: I think ecclesiology absolutely can work that way, and it

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Speaker 4: can work that way in two different directions. I think

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Speaker 4: there's a sense in which our understanding of what it

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Speaker 4: means to be human and how he flourish as human

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Speaker 4: persons informs are ecclesiology. So there are things that I

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Speaker 4: think we do in church, or ways in which we

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Speaker 4: construct our ecclesial lives together that are shaped by a

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Speaker 4: vision of human flourishing. But it absolutely works the other

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Speaker 4: way around. Our ecclesiologies and the ways in which we

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Speaker 4: do church together shape are understandable it means to flourish

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Speaker 4: as humans, because even if we're not kind of aware

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Speaker 4: of it, we have an intuition that church is a

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Speaker 4: place in which we are seeking to become more human

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Speaker 4: and to flourish as humans together. And so church life

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Speaker 4: shapes visions of human flourishing. Visions of human flourishing shape

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Speaker 4: church life. I absolutely think ecclesiology and anthropology are intertwined.

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Speaker 4: Daniel Hill, who's student who did his PhD here at Wheaton,

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Speaker 4: did his dissertation on the ecclesiology anthropology relationship that went

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Speaker 4: on to be published by a book with a title

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Speaker 4: that was along those lines that I'm desperately trying to

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Speaker 4: think of. But he did. He did a great job

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Speaker 4: and kind of articulating that doctrinal intersection.

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Speaker 2: Very cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, how do you think, I mean, this will

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Speaker 1: be the loaded question, I suppose, But when we think

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Speaker 1: about theological anthropology, we think about being human. There's obviously

437
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 1: a lot entailed in that. I mean, you know, there

438
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: have been tons of essays written on the image of God.

439
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 1: We've talked about that on the program. You know, all

440
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 1: these different areas. But if you had to sort of

441
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 1: synthesize it, what would you say, are some of the

442
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: constellation of factors that really are essential for thinking about

443
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: what it means to be human?

444
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 4: Well, I mean the two go tos historically are just

445
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 4: the image of God and sin. Yeah, the dominant categories.

446
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 4: A lot of books on theological anthropology just use those

447
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:53,239
Speaker 4: two as they're framing motifs to the extent that I

448
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:55,600
Speaker 4: often when I'm teaching less on theological anthropology, I do

449
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 4: kind of a whiteboard exercise or I ask people what

450
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 4: the doctrine of humanity or theogs client is about, and

451
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 4: that's unquestionably the starting point, giving the war first and

452
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 4: then set. There's usually kind of a pause after that,

453
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 4: as if we think that just is the doctrine of

454
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,479
Speaker 4: humanity is image? Understand we're kind of a little bit

455
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 4: stuck as to what goes on beyond that. I will say,

456
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 4: by the time we're done, the whiteboard is full. We

457
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 4: have traced connections to all kinds of different things, and

458
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 4: I use that as a way of trying to expand

459
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 4: people's horizons about what it means to think about what

460
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 4: it means to be human. So image of God's sand,

461
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 4: for me, I think the body, I mean, historically a

462
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 4: body soul has been a dominant way of framing things

463
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 4: with those two in there. Given the sets of issues

464
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 4: that we're dealing with today, I tend to I don't

465
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,239
Speaker 4: want to neglect what the tradition has wanted to do

466
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 4: with soul language and spirit language. I do think we

467
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 4: need to think really deeply and carefully about what it

468
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,920
Speaker 4: means to have a body, What is embodiment about, why

469
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 4: was it good? What happened to bodies in the fall,

470
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 4: what's going on with the resurrection? And how should that

471
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 4: and shouldn't that shape the way that we think about

472
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 4: the bodies that we inhabit now. So I think that's

473
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:15,000
Speaker 4: a primary consideration. Free will as it released to scheiology,

474
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 4: do we have it, don't we have it? All those

475
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:20,440
Speaker 4: kind of moral agency and responsibility, There's a whole set

476
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 4: of issues that has been significant historically. I'm not sure

477
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 4: that I would say that it's a dominating kind of

478
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 4: a driving set of factors as much today, at least

479
00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 4: not in the material sense of it. I think largely

480
00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 4: those are just kind of settled conversations, and I don't

481
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 4: know that there are new avenues, at least if there are,

482
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 4: I'm not aware of them. Where I see a lot

483
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 4: of the free will agency conversation coming to play now

484
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 4: is around technology and kind of to what extent are

485
00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 4: we determined by various technological cultural artifacts? What does it

486
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 4: mean to be to have free agency? Like this does

487
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 4: an ai? Uh? Does it now? Or will it ever

488
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 4: have what we call agency and free will and moral

489
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 4: responsibility and those kinds of issues. Yeah, I mean, obviously

490
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 4: you've got all of the stuff around sex, sexuality, gender,

491
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 4: and race, ethnicity, cultural identity. I see those as importantly

492
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 4: connected to the body and why I talk a lot

493
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 4: about the body of my theolosical entropology today. Those seem

494
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:37,399
Speaker 4: to me like kind of the constellations that would be

495
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 4: difficult to avoid, Like if I were going to sit

496
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 4: down and write a one volume survey of theological anthropology,

497
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 4: it be hard to do that without getting into those

498
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 4: kinds of issues.

499
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's helpful.

500
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 1: And do you do you see so when you connect

501
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,959
Speaker 1: like race, gender, all those different ones, they would be

502
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 1: sort of part of that body embodiment sort of, they'd

503
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: almost be subcategories within it, So you could subdivide that

504
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: number of different pieces, is what I'm hearing you say?

505
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 4: Is that right? Yeah, I'm not quite sure that I'd

506
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 4: be willing to say that they're all like subcategories of

507
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 4: a theology of the body. But there are things that

508
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 4: you need to think well about with respect to the

509
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 4: body that provide the theological resources that are necessary thinking

510
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 4: about those things. Right, So, to have a body is

511
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,720
Speaker 4: to be finite, it's to be shaped a particular way.

512
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 4: It's to be identified through relationships to other material realities.

513
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 4: It's to be both good but affected by the fall.

514
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 4: So in all of those theological issues that I need

515
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 4: to think through really carefully, because you need all of

516
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,919
Speaker 4: those resources. When I go to think about these other things,

517
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 4: I fail to mention theology of disability would be a

518
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 4: major category that's important pologies today. It would also be

519
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 4: just directly tied to all of these things and thinking

520
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 4: well about what it means to have a body.

521
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Yeah, that's really helpful because I know a

522
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: lot of that. You know, when I read things on

523
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,639
Speaker 1: the Image of God, they'll fall into some of those

524
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: things and it tends to get I don't want to

525
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 1: say muddled in there, but they do tend to sort

526
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,360
Speaker 1: of creep in at different areas, and so certain categorizations

527
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: of the image of God, for instance, that focus on

528
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: human capabilities ultimately then have to deal with human disabilities

529
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: on some level.

530
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,400
Speaker 2: If they're going to defend that kind of a position.

531
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, I think any view of the image

532
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 4: of God ought to be able to think well about

533
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 4: all of these kinds of issues. Yeah. So, going back

534
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 4: to what she said earlier that when I rune in

535
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 4: the image of God, I try not to spend a

536
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 4: lot of time arguing against other views of the image.

537
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,520
Speaker 4: And I have written at times on all, Right, if

538
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 4: you're going to have this view of the image that

539
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 4: I actually don't think is the best way to think

540
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 4: about the image. But if you're going to go there,

541
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 4: then let's think together about how are you going to

542
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 4: handle issues around disability and whatnot. If you're going to

543
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 4: do that, at least do that as theologically aware as possible.

544
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 4: And I think anybody who's thinking here about the image

545
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 4: ought to challenge themselves to make sure that they're understanding

546
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 4: of the image can handle some of these difficult issues

547
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 4: in theology.

548
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 3: If I'm understanding you correctly. The way that you're sort

549
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 3: of parsing out the importance of thinking about embodiment is

550
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 3: trying to move beyond just simply speaking of image of God?

551
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 3: Is that right?

552
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 4: Correct? Right?

553
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,200
Speaker 3: So, when you're thinking about these dynamics where I think,

554
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 3: I think that your intuition is a good one, because

555
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: we do often tend to try to force things like

556
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 3: the image of God to do more service than maybe

557
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 3: it can. And that's where you run into some of

558
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 3: the problems that James was just mentioning. I'm wondering how

559
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,479
Speaker 3: you have that same conversation though, with some of these

560
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 3: historical figures. So you mentioned the way that this body

561
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 3: soul or body soul spirit dichotomy or trichotomy historically has

562
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 3: such great weight, even in the ways that we tend

563
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 3: to talk about the significance of Jesus taking on flesh,

564
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 3: arguably to the degree that we've historically had the situation

565
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,840
Speaker 3: where embodiment has been diminished. So, now as you think

566
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 3: about it today and you're trying to recover the significance

567
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 3: of embodiment, how do you deal with some of those

568
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 3: elements historically that just get placed within the soulishness of

569
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 3: humanity to the degree that we might say that that's

570
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 3: still a thing or the spirit of a human person

571
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 3: without falling back into the same trap of kind of

572
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: essentializing humanity in these non material ways.

573
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 4: That makes sense, it does. Let me see, I have

574
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 4: any have to pull on about three different threads at

575
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 4: the same time. I think to answer that right, So

576
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 4: I'll try not to do that and too complicated along

577
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 4: of fashion, I mean one, I do want to pick

578
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 4: up one thing you said toward the beginning that I

579
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,479
Speaker 4: do worry that with the image of God we make

580
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 4: it do too much work. There's a move, it's a

581
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 4: pretty common move in theology to go from the image

582
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 4: of God is central for a Biblical Christian understanding what

583
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 4: it means to be human, which try I would agree with,

584
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 4: to the image of God is basically coextensive with what

585
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 4: it means to be human. So anything that I want

586
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 4: to say about the human person I have to somehow

587
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 4: say through the image. And I think at that point

588
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 4: you've expanded the image beyond not just its usefulness but

589
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 4: its biblical location. The image was the Amago Day was

590
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 4: never trying to tell us everything we need to know

591
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 4: about what it means to be human. It was trying

592
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 4: to tell us something that's centrally important for what it

593
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 4: means to be human. So the other things I say

594
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 4: about what it means to be human ought to be

595
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 4: connected to what I think about the image. But that's

596
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 4: different than saying that the image ought to be the

597
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 4: whole of what it means to be human. I think

598
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 4: when we make that ladder move, we just expand the

599
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 4: image in two ways. They make it just unwieldy, very

600
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 4: difficult to address, and I actually think we end up

601
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 4: missing what I think we ought to say about the image,

602
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 4: but into kind of my own view on the image

603
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 4: that might get to hear in a moment. So that's

604
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 4: kind of the first thing that I want to go to.

605
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 4: Second one. I mean, I was trying to be a

606
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 4: little bit careful with earlier thinkers on body soul image

607
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 4: dynamics is I think if we understand them at their

608
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 4: best and the kind of most nuanced for them, there

609
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 4: are very few of them that would disconnect the body

610
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 4: from the imago day entirely. The dominant within the tradition

611
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 4: that I'm familiar with, at least the dominant approach is

612
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 4: to associate the image primarily with the soul, so the

613
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 4: soul is the image of God. There is a minority

614
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 4: report that helps the body be a part of the

615
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 4: image of God as well, But the majority of you

616
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 4: has been that the soul is the image of God.

617
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 4: The body for many theologians, is the image of the image.

618
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 4: It's the material means by which the soul does its

619
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 4: imaging work in the world. So it has a secondary

620
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 4: relationship to the image, but that's still an important relationship

621
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 4: to the image, Like the soul can do the imaging

622
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 4: thing that it ought to do apart from the body.

623
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 4: That is the image of the image, and therefore the

624
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 4: way in which the soul manifests God in whatever way

625
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 4: that view understands the image to function, that's a fairly

626
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 4: significant role for the body in the image. The body

627
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 4: is instrumental in that sense. It's some of the soul

628
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 4: uses to accomplish its imaging purposes, but it's a really

629
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 4: important instrument. And so I wouldn't want to say that

630
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 4: view devalues the body. It just locates the value of

631
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 4: the body in relationship to the value of the soul.

632
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 4: So there is a hierarchy at work there in that

633
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 4: particular kind of dualism, not the only kind of dualism

634
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 4: at work in the Western world. But maybe I want

635
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 4: to say this way, not all hierarchies necessarily devalue the

636
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 4: thing that's lower in the hierarchy. My analogy is typically

637
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 4: I really like coffee. I drink a lot of coffee.

638
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 4: I probably drink coffee than I should. So there's no

639
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 4: question that I place a high value on coffee. But

640
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 4: there's also no question that I value my wife more

641
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 4: than I value coffee. Right, there's a definite hierarchy at

642
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 4: work there, and it's a hierarchy that's not even close.

643
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 4: But that doesn't mean that I'm devaluing coffee, right, I

644
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 4: have a high value for coffee, it's just value that's

645
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 4: located in relation to something that has a significantly higher value.

646
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 4: So that's kind of the way that I would want

647
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 4: to think about at least certain ways of how the

648
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 4: body is related to the soul in that. The challenge,

649
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 4: of course, is that that's a difficult Historically, that has

650
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 4: been a difficult position to maintain without slipping toward a

651
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 4: devaluing of the body in the process. So like, there's

652
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 4: nothing necessary to that in the theoltical system. I get

653
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 4: what they're after in there, but at the very least,

654
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 4: like if you're going to go there, just be aware

655
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 4: that your position has a historical I don't want to

656
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 4: go so far as to say inevitable, but really strong

657
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,919
Speaker 4: tendency to slide towards some unfortunate ways of thinking about

658
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 4: the body and embodiment. I'm inclined to think that. Well,

659
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 4: I think I have good biblical reasons for this, but

660
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,879
Speaker 4: also for kind of practical let's avoid that slippage move.

661
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 4: It's just better to think that the body is fundamentally

662
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,720
Speaker 4: a part of the image itself. I think image language

663
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 4: in the Bible is inherently embodied language. I don't think

664
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 4: the ancient world envisions the possibility that you can have

665
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 4: some of that is an image, a selim or demut

666
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 4: or an icon or whatever language we want to use.

667
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 4: All of those were fundamentally embodied things in the ancient world.

668
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 4: And so I think by calling us images of God,

669
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 4: they're actually talking about us as embodied material images and

670
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 4: an embodied material world. So I actually don't think the

671
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 4: body is merely an instrument of the soul in the

672
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 4: image of God process. I think the body is fundamental

673
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 4: to what it means to be made in the image

674
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 4: of God.

675
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,440
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting, you know, if you read cog

676
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: psych literature nowadays. A lot of times we used to

677
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: make this similar distinction in more unless theological spaces, where

678
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: it'd be like, the mind is different than the body,

679
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 1: and now it's moving back to something that's a little

680
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: bit more like, No, we can distinguish the mind from

681
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: the body, but they're basically the same entity and organism.

682
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: And that's almost what I hear you saying, is this

683
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: hierarchy between soul and body can create some slippage, and

684
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: no matter how essential you view the body being right,

685
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 1: when it's underneath on that hierarchy, it's always going to

686
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: tend toward or lend itself to sort of a gnostic

687
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: sort of movement, right where the soul becomes that much

688
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 1: more important, versus the way you're phrasing it, which is, no,

689
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: it's just all the embodiment, all the stuff that we are,

690
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 1: whether that stuff is soul, spirit, body, whatever we divide

691
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,560
Speaker 1: that into, that whole complex is image.

692
00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 2: Is that? Am I hearing that?

693
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 4: Right? That's largely And I pause when you said the

694
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,319
Speaker 4: is because I still wouldn't want to say that the

695
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 4: image is like everything that needs to be about what

696
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 4: it means be human understood. Yeah, Yeah, it's the human

697
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 4: person as the complex body soul creature that it is,

698
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 4: that is image of God, that is yea. And I mean,

699
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 4: at the end of the day, if you if you

700
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 4: push me hard enough, I'm still a dualist of a kind.

701
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 4: I still think we are body soul creatures. I'm just

702
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 4: significantly less hierarchical in my understanding of how Yeah.

703
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: So, how do you think about the image of God?

704
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: Because oh sorry, I'll ask ahead, what do you think

705
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 1: about the image of God? Because I mean I've addressed

706
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: it more from I'm an Old Testament guy, so I've

707
00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: addressed it more from that sort of Old Testament exegesus

708
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: sort of standpoint, and haven't thought quite as much systematically

709
00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: theologically about theological anthropology. So I'm kind of interested in

710
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:45,880
Speaker 1: the take image of God?

711
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,919
Speaker 2: What is it? How does it function? You know, what's

712
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 2: your take on it?

713
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, so my shorthand, and we probably could do I

714
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 4: don't know, if you'd be interested, we could do a

715
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 4: whole different interview that's just on image of God. I

716
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 4: think be great, I really do think. And I think

717
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 4: it's particularly clear in the Old Testament that the image

718
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 4: terms and conceptual framework in the Old Testament are using

719
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 4: idle language to describe a human person gelemen to your

720
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 4: image and likeness. Terms from Genesis one are either just

721
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 4: straightforwardly idle terms or at least in close constellation with

722
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 4: the sets of terms that the Biblical world used to

723
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:32,280
Speaker 4: refer to idols. And so we to understand Genesis one, well,

724
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 4: you have to read it against the backdrop of what

725
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 4: does it mean to be an idol in the ancient world?

726
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 4: I actually think that's why theologians will often talk about

727
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 4: the fact that those two terms are dropped into Genesis

728
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 4: one without explanation or definition, and I sometimes get the

729
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 4: impression that they think that means that we can do

730
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 4: kind of almost whatever we want with them in that context.

731
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 4: And my response is, well, no, that happened because those

732
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 4: were well understood terms. Typically when used to describe a

733
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:05,400
Speaker 4: creature in relation to a divine being, there's virtually nothing

734
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 4: else that language could be doing other than describing us

735
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 4: as idol, like at the very least. And then if

736
00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 4: you dig into kind of what does it mean to

737
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 4: be an idol in the ancient world, as you are

738
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 4: the material means by which a divine being is quite

739
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 4: literally manifesting divine presence in the world. And that is

740
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 4: my shorthand. Now for what does it mean to say

741
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 4: the humans are our images of God? Is where the

742
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,719
Speaker 4: material means by which God is seeking to manifest his

743
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,760
Speaker 4: divine presence in a unique way in the world.

744
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:38,799
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because that already steps you towards you know,

745
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: you think about the blind deaf idols that are intended

746
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 1: to represent you know, certain ancient or Eastern gods and

747
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: machine that you would get off the metal that's sort

748
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: of been hammered into that and the glow and all

749
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: that symbology. But for humans there is automatically the next

750
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: entailment is well, we have choices, you know, and so

751
00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: you can see how it already bleeds into some of

752
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: these other areas you've talked about, I guess is my point,

753
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: which is really fascinating.

754
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, very cool, And also I think why I emphasize

755
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,439
Speaker 4: the body so much in this Yeah, in that context sense, Yeah,

756
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 4: you have to have materiality to be an idol. That's

757
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 4: the concept wouldn't make any sense apart from being the

758
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 4: material means by which I mean it's they tend to

759
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 4: the definition that you've got the materiality of the human body.

760
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's nothing to shine the glory, then there really

761
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: isn't an image. Yep, yeah see, I'm sorry I cut

762
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 1: you off earlier.

763
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 4: Go for it, man, No, all good.

764
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 3: Actually, the way that you you drowed drew that back

765
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 3: to the idol and the embodiment kind of leans into

766
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 3: what my question is. So on one side we can

767
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 3: see I think, within that way of framing it one

768
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 3: of the fears that earlier versions of Christian theology might

769
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 3: have had in creating a stronger hierarchy. As you put

770
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 3: it right, there's there's a concern that we overly lean

771
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: into then the embodied, and we create idols. I think

772
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 3: often maybe the one that comes to my mind most

773
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,399
Speaker 3: immediately is Augustine. The way that he talks. On one

774
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 3: side of his mouth, he's responding to the Manicheans, and

775
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 3: so he wants to make it very clear creation as

776
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 3: a physical reality is good and to take away from

777
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 3: that as an awful thing. And yet when he starts

778
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 3: to get constructive, at least in my reading of him,

779
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 3: you start to get the sense that he's slipping back

780
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 3: toward what he was criticizing. Right, He's very intent to

781
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 3: say things like that the soul needs to bridle the horse,

782
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 3: that is the body, and like a jockey, control it.

783
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 3: Otherwise you get into a lot of troubles right that

784
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 3: the body takes you as if the body is more

785
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,279
Speaker 3: prone to sinfulness. But I kind of wonder in the

786
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 3: opposite direction, what do we lose when we start to

787
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 3: slip into, let's say, stronger versions of that hierarchy, and

788
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 3: what do we gain when we start to close that

789
00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 3: gap and give a greater on Are I supposed to

790
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 3: the embodiment without necessarily having an without losing the fear

791
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 3: of idolatry, but without having an oversized fear of idolatry.

792
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great way framing it, because I think

793
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,799
Speaker 4: to some extent what Augustine is doing and what a

794
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 4: lot of the Patristic theologians were doing, is they were

795
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 4: operating out of, as you pointed out, actually a very

796
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 4: high doctrine of creation and the goodness of the created order,

797
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 4: and you know, pushing back on any sense that this

798
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 4: could be anything other than what the good God of

799
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 4: the universe created and wanted us to have. But then

800
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 4: you have to make sense out of these kind of

801
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 4: strongly worded cautionary and kind of consistently worrisome approaches to

802
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 4: material realities, which I actually take to be their sense

803
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 4: that it's almost that like kind of creation created things,

804
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 4: including bodies, are so amazingly good that fallen creatures like

805
00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 4: us will always be tempted to use them badly. It's

806
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 4: almost the very goodness and beauty of creation that makes

807
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:08,920
Speaker 4: them fundamentally problematic for fallen creatures, because we're going to

808
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 4: be enticed by their beauty, not because there's anything wrong

809
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 4: with them, but because there's something fundamentally wrong with us,

810
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 4: and we're constantly going to use this thing badly. The challenge,

811
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 4: of course, is that your rhetoric can get complicated here.

812
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 4: So the parallel that have often drawn if you've grown

813
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 4: up in certain kinds of churches like I did, that

814
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 4: have theologies of sexuality that were always around, Like the

815
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 4: explicit theology was sex is good. It's a gift of God.

816
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 4: God gave it to us. Experiencing marriage is amazing. It's

817
00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 4: the kind of the highest possible view of the goodness

818
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 4: of sexuality. And that would get said like once or

819
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: twice a year, and then like the other three hundred

820
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 4: and sixty three days out of the year were especially

821
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 4: if you're a teenager, right, it's dangerous as tempting, stay

822
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:54,920
Speaker 4: away from it, don't touch it, don't think about it.

823
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 4: Like it was all of these that were actually being

824
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 4: driven to a fairly signif degree by this high theology

825
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 4: of sexuality, but the operationalizing of it was this kind

826
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:11,400
Speaker 4: of constant warning it's tempting that allowed us on the

827
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:15,359
Speaker 4: receiving end to actually walk away with a relatively low

828
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,480
Speaker 4: view of sexuality, even though that was the exact opposite, Right,

829
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 4: So we walked away with it's dangerous, it's maybe bad,

830
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:27,560
Speaker 4: it's it's at least kind of conflicted. And I think

831
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,839
Speaker 4: that some of what you see with Augustine on the

832
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 4: with the body here is I think, actually a very

833
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 4: high view of the body, but it gets operationalized in

834
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 4: complicated ways when all of your language around the body

835
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 4: is warning in danger and temptation oriented kinds of language.

836
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 4: I spent so long answering the first part of that

837
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 4: that I forgot we went in the second half of that.

838
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 3: No, So how do we not dismiss someone like Augustin,

839
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 3: I guess is the way to put it and the

840
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 3: warning that he wants to put there, that is a

841
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 3: legitimate warning without being sucked into a kind of theology

842
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 3: that ends up strengthening the hierarchy, minimizing the embodiment, lose

843
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 3: a sight of who we are as embodied creatures, right, Yeah,

844
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 3: that's right, because.

845
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 4: You also asked about, like, what do we lose if

846
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 4: we're not paying enough theological attention to the body, and

847
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 4: what do we gain in this? Well, I think a

848
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 4: good chunk of what we lose is most of human life,

849
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 4: at least human life as it has actually lived and

850
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 4: experienced in I don't know most of the Bible and

851
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 4: history like it. Just we are embodied beings and there

852
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 4: is nothing that we experience in the world that we

853
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 4: don't experience in a way that is at least related

854
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 4: to our bodies. I would say, tectually experience through our bodies.

855
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 4: And I don't know how you think well and theologically

856
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 4: about any aspect of human existence apart from thinking well

857
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 4: and theologically about what it means to be embodied. So

858
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 4: I just think we have fundamentally impoverished theilos anthropologies apart

859
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:04,120
Speaker 4: from a robust theology of embody meant and if theological

860
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 4: anthropology also involves really important issues like gender and sexuality,

861
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 4: and race and racism and identity, and I would say

862
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 4: just things like parenting and teaching and any way time

863
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 4: that we're trying to shape another person, we're doing so

864
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 4: according to some concept of what it means to be

865
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 4: human and how to flourish human persons. If those are

866
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,399
Speaker 4: all part of the doctrine of humanity, and if they're

867
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,600
Speaker 4: all really important, and if you can't think it well

868
00:46:27,640 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 4: about any of them, apart from thinking well about what

869
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 4: it means to have a body, then we've got problems.

870
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 4: And we've just impoverished ourselves in relation to just a

871
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 4: wealth of issues that we ought to be thinking about.

872
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 4: What do we gain First, we're going to gain a

873
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 4: what's the obvious impoferment wealth of theological resources for engaging

874
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 4: those kinds of things. I think we reconnect some stuff.

875
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 4: So something that I have I've done in class before

876
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 4: is I'll students to brainstorm for me a list of

877
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 4: things that you have to do in order to be

878
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 4: spiritually healthy. And you know, you'll get your usual list

879
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 4: of suspects, right, Pray, read your Bible, go to church,

880
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 4: those sorts of things, and then no, it's not spiritually healthy.

881
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 4: In order for spiritual maturity, and they'll list those kinds

882
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 4: of things, and then I'll ask them to brainstorm for

883
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 4: me a list of things that you have to do

884
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 4: in order to be healthy as a human person, and

885
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,000
Speaker 4: they'll list all of the health related things, right, exercise

886
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 4: and sleep and nutrition and whatnot. And then I'll step

887
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,880
Speaker 4: back and we'll have what is often a really good

888
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 4: conversation about two things. I mean, why is it that

889
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 4: the first list, the spiritual maturity list, is inevitably shorter

890
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 4: than the health list, that they have a much easier

891
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 4: time coming up with things that contribute to being healthy

892
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 4: than they can kind of to be spiritually mature. And

893
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 4: then I also want to know why did the two

894
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,359
Speaker 4: lists not overlap at all? No one thinks about those

895
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 4: two as the same sort of thing. They are in

896
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 4: fundamentally different categories. And we can reflect on that. Now.

897
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 4: I will freely admit that I cheat a bit by

898
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:12,479
Speaker 4: using the language of spiritual maturity and the question, because

899
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 4: I know it's going to skew their attention in a

900
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 4: certain direction. But then we can have a conversation out

901
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 4: why is that the case? Why does the language of

902
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 4: spiritual maturity take you to one set of issues and

903
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 4: not the other set of issues. I like to focus

904
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 4: most of it on the language of health and why

905
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 4: do we not think that spiritual maturity and health are

906
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 4: related to each other in any significant way? And I

907
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 4: think kind of thinking more robustly about embodiment will help

908
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 4: us reconnect those things. And it may be that there

909
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 4: are still distinctions that ought to be drawn in there,

910
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 4: but they should not be as bifurcated as they are

911
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 4: in the theological imaginations of most Christians.

912
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: It's pretty fascinating because I came out of a health background,

913
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 1: fitness background, So my bachelor's degree is an exercise fiz

914
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: and I was a personal trainer for a while. And

915
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: you know, as I've gone through life and done theology

916
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,680
Speaker 1: and looked at discipleship and spiritual maturity and all these

917
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,880
Speaker 1: different things, what you find is that that bifurcation is

918
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 1: available almost everywhere. You know, if you if you were

919
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:13,200
Speaker 1: to ask a student, you know, what do you really

920
00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 1: need to do to study? They're not going to tell

921
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: you I need to get a good night's sleep, Like

922
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: those are almost always ancillary too.

923
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:20,839
Speaker 2: What's going on?

924
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: But the reality is, I think people are starting to

925
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: come around to this idea that the body affects the mind,

926
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 1: The body affects the spirit. Like if you're not getting

927
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: enough sleep, if you're spending all your time in front

928
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 1: of your screen, if you're you know, all these different

929
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 1: sort of things that have a diminishing effect on you

930
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: and aren't good for you in high doses, right, sleep deprivation,

931
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: food deprivation, you know, eating twinkies all day, whatever, it

932
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 1: is like, these things are going to have that detrimental impact.

933
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 1: I think we're starting to get our heads around maybe

934
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: these things are more integrated than we've thought.

935
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 4: Yes, And what I would like students to lean into

936
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 4: a little bit more as well, is that I think

937
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:05,160
Speaker 4: think there's a goodness to caring for I hate to

938
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:06,839
Speaker 4: say my body here because it makes sound like it's

939
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 4: not me caring for myself in embodied sorts of ways.

940
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 4: I'm not sure why we can't think of that as

941
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,840
Speaker 4: a good in itself. Oftentimes, when we have this conversation,

942
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 4: the first place that my students want to go in

943
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 4: is Okay, well, it makes sense that I need to

944
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 4: attend to these embodied realities because otherwise I won't be

945
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,799
Speaker 4: able to do the spiritual maturity stuff. Right, they don't

946
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:31,680
Speaker 4: get enough sleep, I won't be able to pray, or

947
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 4: I'll fall asleep and I try to read my Bible,

948
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 4: or if I'm not healthy enough, i won't be able to.

949
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:36,239
Speaker 2: Go to church.

950
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 4: It's all instrumentalized on the body side of things, because

951
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 4: the only goods at stake are the spiritual goods. It's

952
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 4: the only thing the body stuff can be doing is

953
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 4: help me achieve the only goods that are in view.

954
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 4: And I want to say, no, there are goods on

955
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 4: both sides of this equation. I don't want to downplay

956
00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 4: the reality of taking care of my body for the

957
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 4: sake of doing the many things that God has called

958
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 4: me to do in the world, but I have to

959
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 4: instrumentalize all of them. And why it's not possible to

960
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,160
Speaker 4: think that God gave me a body and He probably

961
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 4: thinks that it's a good thing that I take care

962
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:12,880
Speaker 4: of the I guess I don't want to say take

963
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 4: care of the bodies, take care of myself in embodied

964
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 4: sorts of ways. That sounds to me like something just

965
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 4: ought to be good. And it's kind of funny that

966
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 4: as Christians will often use that reasoning when thinking about

967
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 4: creation itself. It's I don't have to think that I

968
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,759
Speaker 4: don't know, taking care of the forest preserved next to

969
00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:35,320
Speaker 4: me is only good if it lends itself toward I

970
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 4: don't know, the humans being healthier, and like we kind

971
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 4: of think God made trees. He seems to like them,

972
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 4: and so it's okay to want to take care of

973
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 4: them and then rejoice in their beauty. For some reason,

974
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 4: it's weird if we think that we ought to think

975
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:51,719
Speaker 4: about ourselves in the same sorts of ways.

976
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 2: Oh, it's great.

977
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 3: Well, I think James is laughing right there because the

978
00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 3: tree dynamic, right that that's gonna pulled me into something more.

979
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:03,560
Speaker 3: But I have to ask this in light of that.

980
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 3: I know we're running out of time here. So there

981
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 3: are actual studies done that have indicated that a significant

982
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 3: component of mental health is related to our connection to trees,

983
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 3: of all things. So the studies have shown that if

984
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 3: you send someone through an old growth forest and they're

985
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 3: struggling the way that the tree chatter, that's very real

986
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 3: that we don't pick up with our ears, but we

987
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 3: pick up sort of chemically with what they're doing interacts

988
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 3: with us. Actually reduces anxiety and stress and increases development

989
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:45,520
Speaker 3: of hormones in our own body that calm us down,

990
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:51,240
Speaker 3: and it seems like a small thing related to health.

991
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 3: But then you know, knowing those sorts of things, then

992
00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:58,239
Speaker 3: you go to scripture and you realize the frequency within

993
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 3: which Jesus is appealing to these sorts of dynamics just

994
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 3: to talk about the Kingdom of God or even the

995
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 3: ways in which he himself is going to interact with

996
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 3: the Father. Before he's arrested. He goes to Guessemone, which

997
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 3: seems to be, if I'm reading it correctly, a tree

998
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 3: grove right, olive tree grove, and something that becomes less

999
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 3: of a throwaway line, and it's more of an intuition

1000
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 3: of the work. The work that Jesus was doing wasn't

1001
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:33,439
Speaker 3: disconnected from him actually walking and being in places right

1002
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 3: and ministering accordingly, and that's God and therefore means something right.

1003
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 3: The work is still to be done in terms of

1004
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 3: how closely and intimately we interweave the two, But there's

1005
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: got to be something related at that point to now

1006
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,880
Speaker 3: thinking about the place of jesus work and the words

1007
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 3: that Jesus said, and the fact that they so deeply intertwine,

1008
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 3: and then his actions being so deeply moving in and

1009
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,279
Speaker 3: out of these places to now think him on our

1010
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 3: own identity as human beings and that maturity health interwoven

1011
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 3: reality as well. Right, do you have any kind of

1012
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 3: a convoluted question but kind of drawful what you're saying.

1013
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it relates to what I was saying

1014
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 4: earlier about the importance of thinking about our bodies and

1015
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 4: what it means to be embodied creatures living in a

1016
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 4: material world. That I think it causes us to think

1017
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 4: about our finitude and our particularity with our particular identities.

1018
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 4: But one of the key things is it that is

1019
00:54:31,480 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 4: is I mean, no material thing exists in this universe

1020
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 4: apart from being related to the other material things that

1021
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,399
Speaker 4: exist in this universe. It's just how material things work.

1022
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 4: They are unavoidably connected to the other aspects of the

1023
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 4: material world. So it actually shouldn't surprise us that we

1024
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,880
Speaker 4: are shaped and affected by other material things in creation

1025
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 4: in ways that we probably haven't even begun to comprehend

1026
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 4: and appreciate. And so I'm sure there is a logic

1027
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:00,919
Speaker 4: for taking care of the rest of creation because it's

1028
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,879
Speaker 4: going to contribute to our own flourishing. I wouldn't want

1029
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 4: that to be the only logic in view, I think

1030
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 4: it's okay to attend to the flourishing of other creatures

1031
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 4: just because God created them and seems to like them.

1032
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 4: But absolutely I think that in doing so we are

1033
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 4: probably attending to our own flourishing in ways we don't

1034
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:22,719
Speaker 4: yet understand. Now. I also always want to acknowledge we

1035
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 4: live in a broken material world, and so none of

1036
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 4: this always lends itself the easy answers to questions about

1037
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,280
Speaker 4: when it isn't it okay to chop down that tree

1038
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 4: that is actually helping with my mental health? But I

1039
00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 4: also don't know that we can rustle with that question

1040
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:40,839
Speaker 4: well without thinking and attending carefully to what is that

1041
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 4: tree is a part of the creative order that God

1042
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 4: has given us and has called us to inhabit faithfully well.

1043
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 3: Arguably, wrestling with that is an element of maturity, right

1044
00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 3: even beyond the health benefits that might have to my

1045
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:57,879
Speaker 3: mental state. It is an element of maturity to begin

1046
00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 3: to think about ourselves as creatures, given in places, embodied,

1047
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 3: but also interwoven in these deep and meaningful ways, so

1048
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 3: that what's good for them, them being the trees and

1049
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 3: the other creatures, is also good for me, but not

1050
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 3: just good for me, right that there's that give and take.

1051
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, well, guys, it seems clear that we probably

1052
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 1: need to have another conversation. This was great, but we

1053
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:27,560
Speaker 1: are absolutely out of time. And Mark really appreciate you

1054
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: being here. This was fabulous. I really enjoyed the conversation

1055
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: and would love to have you back if your willing.

1056
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: I think a more robust understanding or discussion of the

1057
00:56:37,800 --> 00:56:41,919
Speaker 1: image of God would certainly help. And so if you're willing,

1058
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 1: we'd love to have you back. And I really appreciate

1059
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: you being here for the hour.

1060
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 4: This has been a lot of fun. I appreciate the

1061
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 4: invitation and the opportunity. Thank you.

1062
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, everybody, Well, thanks for being here. Thanks Ashijh,

1063
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 1: Thanks Mark, and we will catch you on the next

1064
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,839
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian Take care of Everybody. I just

1065
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank that team at

1066
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:02,960
Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking

1067
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll

1068
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.

1069
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,680
Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.