1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 2: You are listening to The Beckett Cook Show with your 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 2: host Beckett Cook. For more information about Beckett and his ministry, 4 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 2: visit his website at Beckettcook dot com. To help support 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 2: the podcast, visit Patreon dot com slash the Beckett Cook Show. 6 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 2: Please consider subscribing to the podcast and leaving a five 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 2: star rating. 8 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:40,239 Speaker 3: Hey guys, welcome to the show today. I have a 9 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 3: special guest, doctor Michael Davidson. He has an amazing story. 10 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 3: He's coming to us from the UK and he was 11 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 3: same sex attracted but then ended up getting married to 12 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 3: a woman and had two kids. He later got a 13 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 3: degree in psychotherapy to help people with this with same 14 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 3: sex attraction and he appeared on the BBC in Piers 15 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 3: Morgan and was basically canceled in the UK completely. And 16 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 3: so we're going to talk about that and also what 17 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 3: he's doing now and how he's helping tons of people 18 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 3: in the UK. But first award from our sponsor, Please 19 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 3: welcome doctor Michael Davidson. 20 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: Thank you, Beckett. Very good to meet you. We've always 21 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: enjoyed your work. 22 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 3: Oh good, I'm glad it's good to meet you. And 23 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 3: you are in Belfast right now. And what before we 24 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 3: get to Belfast. How Okay, So you were born in Zambia, 25 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 3: raised in Zimbabwe, and then you spent some time in 26 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 3: New Zealand. So what's going on? Where were your parents' missionaries? Like, 27 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 3: what's happening? 28 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: No, My my mother was from Yorkshire and after World 29 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: War Two went out to Africa. I think she was 30 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: looking for a different from kind of life and that's 31 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: where she met my father, who was coming out of 32 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: the army. He'd been in Italy during the war, and 33 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: they married in Northern Rhodesia and that's where I was born, 34 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: just near Victoria Falls. Later on they emigrated to Southern 35 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: Rhodesia as it was then but now Zimbabwe, and that's 36 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: where I did most of my schooling. Then they emigrated 37 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: to New Zealand in the sixties and I stayed in 38 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:40,119 Speaker 1: New Zealand with them for a while, went to school there. 39 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: Then they decided they missed Africa too much, so they 40 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: went back. I can go on. 41 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 3: And then and so okay, so what is your accent? 42 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 3: Because your accents kind of sounds Kiwi, but it also 43 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: sounds sort of South African, but it also sounds British. 44 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,279 Speaker 3: So where what is your accent. 45 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: Confused, I would, that's right. I mean, I've lived in 46 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: New Zealand, and I actually went to college in Nashville, 47 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 1: Tennessee and Kansas City, Missouri for a while. I married 48 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: as South African and I live in Ireland. So your 49 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: guest is mine. 50 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 3: Well, it's a great belange. It's a great belange. So 51 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 3: what was it like growing up in Africa? Did you 52 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: enjoy that or was it what did you feel about that? 53 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: Well? I loved Africa, and I you know, I loved 54 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: the warmth of the sun. But all the children's books 55 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: that I read and all the things that interested me 56 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: came from overseas. So I had this kind of UK 57 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: orientation in terms of everything that I read. So I 58 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: guess there was a natural gravitation towards the UK. My 59 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: father's parents were from Scotland and from Ireland, and my 60 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,839 Speaker 1: mother's parents were from Yorkshire, so there there's always been 61 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 1: that orientation. And I note when I did my you know, 62 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: heritage genealogy thing, that that indeed is where everything is based. 63 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 3: And so when you were growing up, would you visit 64 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 3: the UK as a child. 65 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: No, but you know you didn't travel as much then 66 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: if you were you know, going to emigrate that kind 67 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 1: of thing. Well, we certainly didn't have the resources to 68 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: do that, but I was in touch with grandparents and 69 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: aunts and uncles, so there was just a lot of 70 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: interest and basic gravitation towards UK culture, I would say. 71 00:04:57,720 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 3: And when you first what was how old are you 72 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 3: were when you first went to the UK. 73 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: Oh, I think it was on my way to study 74 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: in the States for the first time that so that 75 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: would have been I guess in the early seventies. That 76 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: was the first time. I wondered, Well, I think I 77 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: was there as a baby, but obviously I don't remember that. 78 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 3: And what did you think about it when you saw 79 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 3: it as an adult? 80 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: Well, I'd always been told how green England is, and 81 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember they had the most 82 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: horrendous drought in the seventies around seventies, I'm not mistaken. 83 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: So when I was coming into land at Heathrow, I 84 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: could not reconcile what I'd been told about this place 85 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: and what I was seeing. There were two completely different things. 86 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm sure. Okay, So you say that when you 87 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 3: were eighteen and tell us how this happened. You had 88 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 3: a very dramatic life changing conversion to Christianity. What were 89 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,679 Speaker 3: your parents Christians? How did this happen? 90 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: My mother had been converted and I'd seen the changes 91 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,119 Speaker 1: that had come into her life. But I was also 92 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:21,279 Speaker 1: influenced by a Canadian teacher in my high school, and 93 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: I had joined the what we call the Scripture Union, 94 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: which is a Christian club, and at some point I 95 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: had been invited to go to a kind of weekend 96 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: retreat and I went and one of the speakers there 97 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: was Nigel Goodwin, which maybe doesn't mean anything to your viewers, 98 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: but he starred with Cliff Richard in a film called 99 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: Two a Penny. Cliff Richard had by that time come 100 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 1: out as a Christian, and Goodwin similarly had a Christian testimony, 101 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 1: and at this camp he, I don't know, there was 102 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: something really different about him. He did actually speak a 103 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: bit about homosexuality, which kind of terrified me because at 104 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: that time I knew there was something going on in 105 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: my life. But at the end of the camp, to 106 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: cut a long story short, in a very kind of 107 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: typically dutiful way, I went to say goodbye and thank 108 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: you very much for having me. And when I did that, 109 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: he hugged me, and this just flawed me. I don't 110 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: think I had ever experienced that in my life before. 111 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: There was a you know, there was just a genuine 112 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,520 Speaker 1: connection that he made. I think probably the only connection 113 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: that I'm made with him, because I was just too 114 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: shy to speak to him during the whole time. But 115 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: that profoundly affected me. And not long after that, I 116 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: went home and I was outside and looking up at 117 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: the sky, and I don't know what happened, but the 118 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:25,920 Speaker 1: Lord very definitely came into my life in a remarkable way, 119 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:31,119 Speaker 1: in the sense that I just knew things would never 120 00:08:31,240 --> 00:08:37,000 Speaker 1: be the same again, and I felt so clean and 121 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: so renewed and so different, and I carried on in 122 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: that way, I think for months and months. 123 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 3: What was your The reaction of your parents. 124 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: Well, they, you know, they definitely saw that there was 125 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: something going on in my life. I don't think I 126 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: was ever a very extroverted person, but there was a 127 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: quiet change in my life and a focus that turned 128 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: towards the Lord that certainly my mother noticed. I'm not 129 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: sure my father had a lot to say about it, 130 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: but they were supportive. Both of them were supportive of 131 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: what was happening to me. I just seemed to find 132 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: myself in a completely new way that I hadn't experienced before. 133 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 3: And so did you get involved with a church right 134 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 3: away or what happened with that? 135 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: Well? I grew up in the Church of England or 136 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: Church of the Province as it was known. So I 137 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,320 Speaker 1: was an altar boy and a choir boy. I was 138 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: head choir boy, all of those things, and I was 139 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: around Christianity a lot. I saw the change in my 140 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: mother that kind of encouraged me to go in that direction. 141 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: I went to Scripture Union, but that conversion experience was 142 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: something I had never had before. So that now radically 143 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: took hold of my life and really did become the 144 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: center of who I was. Eventually, I would, you know, 145 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 1: sense a call to serve the Lord and did go 146 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: towards pastoral ministry and preparation in that direction. 147 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 3: We'll be right back after this short break. And so 148 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 3: you say that you dealt with same sex attraction, When 149 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: did that start in your life? 150 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: I remember on our way to New Zealand recognizing that 151 00:10:55,040 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: I had attractions to to men, basically to older men, 152 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: and I guess I just felt curious about it. I 153 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: didn't rarely understand it. I didn't know what to do 154 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: with it. 155 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 3: How old were you? 156 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: I would have been nine or ten. But I have 157 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: to say there were many instances where I was attracted 158 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: to girls and reached out to girls. It wasn't that 159 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: I had no attraction to the opposite sex. I definitely did. 160 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 1: But it's like there was just this side of me 161 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 1: that was demanding more attention as I was going on, 162 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: and that I began to recognize as a reality, even 163 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: though I, frankly I didn't have the vocabulary or the 164 00:11:55,960 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: perspective to be able to articulate exactly what it was. 165 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 3: By the way, you mentioned the speaker that hugged you, 166 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 3: the guy who hugued you, Why did he because that 167 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 3: was such a What year was that when that happened. 168 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: So I would have been about sixteen or seventeen seventeen probably, 169 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: and it was just before my conversion, so it was 170 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: in my last years of high school. 171 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 3: So was it in the seventies, Yeah, because it seems 172 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 3: odd that he would In the seventies people really didn't 173 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 3: talk about homosexuality. Because you mentioned that he mentioned homosexuality 174 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 3: in some way. Why did he do that? 175 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: He showed a film and I can't remember, you know 176 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: what it was. Isn't this amazing that I only remember 177 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: this now? He had been involved in the Billy Graham 178 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: campaign and he was showing a film of one of 179 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: Billy Graham's campaigns in London, and the cameras focused on 180 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: two I guess, transgender folk who were you know, dressed 181 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 1: in female clothing. And as the camera's focused on this 182 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: in his documentary, I remember him saying and something about 183 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: and of course our friends were also there and he 184 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: was you know, it wasn't being unkind in any way. 185 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: He was just offering commentary on what we were seeing. 186 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 3: And it's wow, okay. So and then it's interesting you 187 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 3: say that about when you were nine years old you 188 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: started to feel this attraction towards older men. But because 189 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 3: the same thing happened with me, I was attracted to 190 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 3: women when I was a young boy. My first attractions 191 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 3: were to women. But then somehow, and of course, if 192 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 3: you know my story, I was molested when I was nine, 193 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 3: so that might have something to do with it. But 194 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:16,199 Speaker 3: then through a series of events, it shifted towards men. 195 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 3: But as you said, it was kind of like you said, 196 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 3: it was like dominant. I think you use that word, 197 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 3: but it was weird because in my life it was dominant, 198 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 3: that attraction towards the same sex was dominant. But I 199 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 3: remember in high school, you know, I dated three girls serious. 200 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:44,239 Speaker 3: I went, you know, we went steady, We dated seriously, 201 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 3: and I remember enjoying dating them a lot like I 202 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 3: enjoyed kissing them. I mean, it was like it was 203 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 3: a strange dichotomy of like, on the one hand, I 204 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 3: was attracted to the girls, but on the other I 205 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 3: was attracted I was confusing anyway, So how did you 206 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,000 Speaker 3: deal with this same sex attraction once you were converted 207 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 3: at eighteen? How did you handle this? 208 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: Well, the first thing I would have to say is 209 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 1: I was bitterly disappointed that after this very high I 210 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: guess emotional experience that came with conversion, I then the 211 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: penny dropped that actually I was, I was still attracted 212 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: in this way, and I was therefore somewhat disappointed to 213 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: the point where I said, well, you know, maybe I 214 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: wasn't really converted, because my understanding was that this this 215 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: should have gone, and so I was. I was disappointed 216 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 1: about that, and I think there was even a sense 217 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:11,040 Speaker 1: of depression that began to be in my mind because 218 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: I felt like a failure then, but I was determined 219 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: to serve the Lord and confident that he had called 220 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: me and that he would go before me. You know 221 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 1: what you said earlier on kind of triggers something in me, 222 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: because I began to be aware of some instances in 223 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: my childhood that I think really did influence me. One 224 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: of which was my sister and I visiting a farm 225 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: in the country and my parents weren't there. They allowed 226 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: us to stay with this family, and this family had 227 00:16:52,920 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: a completely different attitude in terms of nudity. This kind 228 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: of showed itself in different ways, and I remember that 229 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 1: that marked me, and that was probably one of the 230 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: earliest things that then connected with other things. And I 231 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,560 Speaker 1: think that's what happens. There's like a template that begins 232 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 1: to develop, and certain random experiences seemed to connect, and 233 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: before you know where you are. You know, you're seeing 234 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: different possibilities and ideas that maybe wouldn't have been there 235 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: if you hadn't been exposed in the way you were. 236 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:47,440 Speaker 3: And were your parents aware of your struggles, No, even 237 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 3: after you were converted to Christianity, where they were they aware? 238 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: No? Because I was never open about any of it. 239 00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: I mean, these were the days when you know, was 240 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: not even a word really again something completely different. So no, 241 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: I mean the last thing I would ever have done 242 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: is spoken about this issue, especially in a church context. 243 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 1: You know, what began to happen with me was every 244 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: time anybody came anywhere near Romans chapter one, I would 245 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: be under the pew. I would feel so convicted and 246 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: so hopeless, and so, you know, beyond help or redemption. 247 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: I really struggled in that way and never shared it 248 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: with anyone, actually until I met my wife, and you know, 249 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: we had to be honest about some things, and I 250 00:18:55,040 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: was honest with her. But maybe one other person before. 251 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 3: You should you should have skipped to first Corinthian six 252 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 3: where it says but such were some of you, But 253 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 3: you were awash, you were sanctified, You were you know, 254 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. So so, okay, you mentioned your wife. 255 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 3: How did this happen? How so you got converted at eighteen? 256 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 3: You are struggling with this issue, you know that you're 257 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 3: kind of disappointed, and then when do you meet your wife? 258 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,200 Speaker 1: Well, I went to Bible College because by that time 259 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: I believed the call of the Lord was on my 260 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,200 Speaker 1: life and that he wanted me to prepare for pastoral ministry. 261 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: So I went to Bible College, got involved in a 262 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:47,159 Speaker 1: local church, and she was there. She had a beautiful 263 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 1: singing voice, and I also liked to sing, but I 264 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 1: kind of thought, you know, compared to her, I wouldn't 265 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,080 Speaker 1: give up the day job kind of thing. So so 266 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: that relationship grew and there was no other thought, Beckett, 267 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: I was going to be a pastor. I needed to 268 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 1: be married. I wanted to have children, and that's what 269 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:21,119 Speaker 1: I was going to do. And when I started to 270 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: go in that direction, then of course there were things 271 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: I had to deal with and Lena and I had to, 272 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, speak things through very candidly and talk about 273 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: how things had been in our lives. And it was 274 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 1: at that point that all of that came out. 275 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 3: And how old were you when you got married? 276 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: I was twenty four. 277 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 3: And was this in New Zealand or some other country. 278 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 1: That was in South Africa, because that's where I, you know, 279 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: my parents came back from Zimbabwe. I finished high from 280 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,919 Speaker 1: New Zealand, I Biga Pardon and I finished high school 281 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: in Zimbabwe. We then went down to South Africa, which 282 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: was a real culture shock. 283 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 4: I have to say, okay, so and then you have 284 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 4: two kids, right, yes, so how how did that affect 285 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 4: you in terms of. 286 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 3: The struggle of what you like? Did that that just 287 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 3: kind of alleviate a lot of that struggle? Having kids? 288 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: Well, it certainly filled my my days. But you know, 289 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: we have a fantasy life and we have desires. All 290 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: of us probably have desires we have to keep in check. 291 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: So as far as I was concerned, this was something 292 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,880 Speaker 1: I you know, I could never I could never go there. 293 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: I could only make sure that that didn't get a 294 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: hold of my life. But as we all know, white 295 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: knuckling these things is not the answer, and I had 296 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: to find a different answer. And it was really only 297 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: when we as a family emigrated to the UK, and 298 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: I guess the pressure was really on because you know, 299 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: emigration is not for the faint hearted as far as 300 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:38,520 Speaker 1: I'm concerned, especially when you have the responsibility of two children. 301 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: So there was a lot of pressure on me. I 302 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: had a high powered or high pressure job in the 303 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: university system in the UK. It wasn't easy to kind 304 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: of slide into that context. And I realized, okay, temptations 305 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: in my life are at a level that I really 306 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,639 Speaker 1: need to get some help about this. And that's what 307 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: pushed me into seeking help at that time. 308 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 3: And you say that when you first in the UK, 309 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 3: when you first shared your struggles, when in the UK, 310 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,840 Speaker 3: they the pastor thanked the pastor thanked you, but asked 311 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 3: you not to tell others. Is that what happened? 312 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? I went and I started talking to an organization 313 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: and I think in many ways they helped me. And 314 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: it was like there was a kind of integration within 315 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 1: myself that now I was recognizing that this was an 316 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: issue in my life. Whereas before I'd kind of pushed 317 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,719 Speaker 1: it away and never dealt it, dealt with it. Now 318 00:23:55,840 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: I saw that it was a reality and it was 319 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: something I needed to recognize and work with and deal 320 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: with it. I'd come that far now for me. You know, 321 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: that reflected honesty, and I felt there was some there 322 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 1: was greater integrity in my life when I had that recognition. 323 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 1: And I thought the church would rejoice that naively, but 324 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: I think actually what happened was the church was afraid 325 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: of that. And the pastor said to me, well, thank 326 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: you so much for sharing. You're so brave, but please 327 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: don't tell anybody else. Oh God, I was flawed. I 328 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: could not understand what he was saying. And you know, 329 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: I don't have a big I'm not angry with that fact. 330 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: That was just his reaction, but it did crush me 331 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 1: and it pushed me right back where I was, and 332 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: in fact, I felt so angry that obviously I had 333 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: to work through that as well. And I think that's 334 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: one of the things that made me determined to deal 335 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 1: with this, because I've I felt a bit let down 336 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:33,119 Speaker 1: at that time. 337 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 3: It's funny because I just had a guest on who 338 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 3: experienced the same thing, Tia, you know her. And it's 339 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 3: funny because when I got saved at my church in 340 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 3: two thousand and nine, it was the opposite reaction. Everyone 341 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 3: was celebrating, like the pastor, everyone was excited for me. 342 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 3: They all knew like, so, it's it's it's sad to 343 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 3: me that that happened to you, Antitya. So what so 344 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 3: you start? You started seeking professional counseling and how did 345 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: that help you? 346 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: I think what happened was those counselors came across to 347 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: me as being very, very present what I had experienced 348 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: with Nigel Goodwin in that hug was a different kind 349 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:53,159 Speaker 1: of masculinity and male. There was a sensitivity and a 350 00:26:53,240 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: godliness and with the counselors that that salience, that connection 351 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: was there, and I think in my case that is 352 00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: what made the difference. I could connect with these individuals, 353 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: and I'm sure in a sense, I was drawn to 354 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:24,840 Speaker 1: the emotional security that that represented and I felt I 355 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: just felt held and I felt as though I could 356 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: be honest, and I felt I was I could be safe, 357 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,840 Speaker 1: and that they understood where I was coming from. They 358 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:41,399 Speaker 1: gave that impression, you know, they were welcoming enough that 359 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: I felt that this was the right place for me 360 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:44,720 Speaker 1: to be. 361 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 3: And how long did this go on? 362 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: A period of three years, there were you know, different psychotherapists. 363 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: The first one went back to Iceland, so he went. 364 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: I was sorry to see that. And I had another 365 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: one and he was pretty good. And then I had 366 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: a Freudian, which was a completely different kind of experience 367 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: because there was not the emotional connection that I felt 368 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: with the other two. It was kind of a distance thing. 369 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: So it taught me, you know, it's not just anybody 370 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: who can do this. You have to be comfortable with 371 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 1: the approach and the background and the person you're dealing with. 372 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: And that's not to say that Freudian didn't help me. 373 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: I'm sure he did. He helped me in a different way. 374 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: But I guess all three of them provided a safe 375 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: context that I felt nourished in and I was drawn 376 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: back to. And because of that, I felt I could 377 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: really respect, you know, the work that was being done 378 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: in those contexts. 379 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 3: And so and then you went, did you go on 380 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 3: to become you? Because you went on to train for 381 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 3: three years in psychotherapy, So you went, did you become 382 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 3: a psychotherapist? 383 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: So part of my you know, exploration in therapy was 384 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: connecting with psychodrama. And if you know what psychodrama is, 385 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: it's it's essentially working in action rather than just talking therapy. 386 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: It's it's learning how to put yourself in a role 387 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: context and in that context you can do a lot 388 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: of other things. And it felt very helpful to me. 389 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: And so I was drawn to psychodrama psychotherapy and decided, Okay, 390 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: this has really helped me. Now I will want to 391 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: know more about this. So I began training part time 392 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: because I had a full time job still in the 393 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: university sector. So I began part time training traveled over 394 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: to England from Ireland and did that for three years. 395 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: And then about that time the professional organization started to 396 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: make an issue of the whole idea of I guess 397 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: change allowing therapy. 398 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 3: Or like conversion what they would call conversion therapy, kind. 399 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: Of conversion therapy, and so I was having none of this, 400 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: and I decided to raise it with my trainers because 401 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 1: I could see, you know, I was heading in the 402 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: wrong direction in terms of what they were saying. They 403 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: were saying that it was an ethical effects to help 404 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: anybody in these circumstances, and that was the whole reason 405 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: why I was training. I wanted to be there for 406 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 1: people who wanted to work in this area. So I 407 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: raised it with the trainers. They, I think they were 408 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: very nervous about accreditation for what they were building. So 409 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: it led to direct conversations with the United Kingdom Council 410 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 1: for Psychotherapy. The chairman was a gay man who clearly 411 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: had a political agenda. About that time, I was being 412 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: interviewed on the BBC in terms of my own story 413 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: and the work I was doing in the community. Before 414 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: I left the studio, I got a message to say 415 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: that I was spended because I had. They had kind 416 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,840 Speaker 1: of put me on the spot and asked me who 417 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: my professional body was. So I told them wow, And 418 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: before I left the studio I was told that I 419 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 1: was suspended and a week later that was confirmed and that, 420 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, that just that was devastating. Actually, I was 421 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: three years into my studies. They basically prevented me from 422 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: returning to my my studies and refused that I should 423 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: be allowed to continue because I would not support what 424 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: the professional body was saying in this area. 425 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 3: So that's crazy. And you well, I saw a clip 426 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 3: of you on Piers Morgan, Piers Morgan was interviewing you 427 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 3: on ITV. Was that that wasn't the same interview? 428 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: No, No, that was years later. That was you know, 429 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: by that time, I thought, well, you know, I'm just 430 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: going to be what I what I am, and I'm 431 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: going to talk about the issues. And that kind of 432 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:24,479 Speaker 1: pushed me into this place where when they wanted to 433 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: talk about this issue, they would call me. And that's 434 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: what happened. In that particular interview that you are referring 435 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: to with Piers Morgan, that was the most complained about 436 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 1: interview in the UK in that year. We have a. 437 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 3: It was complained about because of what you were saying. 438 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: It was I think it was probably fifty to fifty. 439 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: Half of the complaints were that I had been given, 440 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: you know, this platform to say that what I was saying, 441 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: and the other half was how you know Peas chose 442 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: to interview me. 443 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean if if, maybe we'll put a link below, 444 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 3: But I mean he in the interview, he is so aggressive. 445 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 3: It's insane how how he interviews you. I hope he's 446 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 3: repented of that and apologize to you, because it's it's 447 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,080 Speaker 3: it was just so out. It was beyond the pale, 448 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,359 Speaker 3: like the what what the way he was interrogating you 449 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 3: and he wouldn't even let you speak, no. 450 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 1: So, but I spoke anyway, you did, good for you, 451 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 1: Good on you. 452 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 3: So and then they this, uh what is it the 453 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 3: memorandum of understanding on conversion therapy. They told you that 454 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 3: you could not returned unless you change your beliefs. 455 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you know, once I had been thrown out 456 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: of the British Psychodrama Association, of course I appealed that, 457 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:13,479 Speaker 1: but they upheld the complaint against me. But they said 458 00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: I could return if I changed my beliefs, and of 459 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 1: course I couldn't do that. There's no way I could. 460 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there were many lessons I could learn. 461 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: I think what really frustrated me was they would not 462 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,799 Speaker 1: into any discussion that I had. So obviously I defended 463 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: myself put everything together that I knew to put together, 464 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: but they didn't right back saying, look, your research is 465 00:35:56,320 --> 00:36:01,839 Speaker 1: flawed or your perspective is unbalance. You know, they just 466 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: ignored it. And I I had by that time become 467 00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: I mean, my PhD thesis was basically about the whole 468 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: idea of indoctrination and you know, the dangers of not 469 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 1: allowing minority Christian voices to be heard. So this was 470 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: very challenging for me, and it just kind of pushed 471 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 1: me into trying to find defenses for, you know, the 472 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: right and freedom of people to choose the direction that 473 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:51,120 Speaker 1: they want to go in, not to criticize anybody else 474 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: who had a different point of view. It was at 475 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 1: that time that the UK put together what we call 476 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:02,799 Speaker 1: the Memorandum of Understanding on conversion therapy, and I had 477 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: applied by that time, I had you formed an organization 478 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,919 Speaker 1: that began to have some recognition in the country. I'd 479 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: applied on the organization's behalf to participate in discussion, and 480 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: I have the letter from the minister associated with that, 481 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,160 Speaker 1: This Minister of State who you know, basically told me 482 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,759 Speaker 1: my views were too extreme. I couldn't be a part 483 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: of it. So they only had people who agreed with them. 484 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: And this is the kind of thing that just I 485 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 1: think is very disturbing in the whole history of this process. 486 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: So they put this document together. They know it's not 487 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:55,560 Speaker 1: a scientific document. I think it has three quotations from 488 00:37:56,000 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: the American literature, not even based on anything in the UK. 489 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,399 Speaker 1: And this document has become what we refer to as 490 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,680 Speaker 1: the de facto ban on conversion therapy in the UK. 491 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 1: So all the mental health bodies are signed up to 492 00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: a document that is ideological. It's a consensus document that 493 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 1: everybody agrees to, but there is no science attached to it, 494 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: and it's one point of view that is being held to. 495 00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: And I think that's what has rarely exercised me. That 496 00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: we talk about equality and we talk about pluralism, but 497 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:52,120 Speaker 1: there is no pluralism. There is. The whole thing depends 498 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: on whether or not you support state owned ideology, and 499 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,840 Speaker 1: if you do, you're fine. You're home in a boat, 500 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 1: as the Irish would say. But if you don't support that, 501 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 1: you've had it. You will be canceled and you will 502 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 1: be excluded, And that is exactly what we are seeing 503 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: increasingly in the UK. 504 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 3: Well, what's ironic about all of this, of course, is 505 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 3: the whole LGBTQ plus ideology says that gender is fluid. 506 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:29,760 Speaker 3: You can change your sexuality from one day to the next. 507 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 3: You can be two spirit, you could be you know, 508 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 3: all kinds of things you can change and go back 509 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 3: and forth. But somehow seeking out help to with with 510 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 3: to deal with same sex struggles or same sex attraction 511 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,839 Speaker 3: or trauma from that is banned. It just seems like 512 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 3: so it's the so absurd. 513 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,760 Speaker 1: Well, exactly, you can go one way, but you can't 514 00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: go the other. Yeah, and either So we know that 515 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 1: the majority of people who or the probably the largest 516 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:17,720 Speaker 1: group of people are mixed attracted. There's a huge number 517 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: of people who are mixed attracted. Are we really saying 518 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: that they can only go in one direction? How can 519 00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: that be right? Surely we have to allow people to 520 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,520 Speaker 1: go in either direction. But that's exactly the point that 521 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:42,479 Speaker 1: around which there is no agreement, certainly in the UK 522 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 1: or anywhere else that I can see. 523 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 3: So in the UK currently conversion therapy is completely banned. 524 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 3: Is that the case? 525 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: No, that's what I'm saying. That this memorandum of understanding 526 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: is a de facto band so they never, they never, 527 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: and it they just made it impossible for anybody to 528 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: work in this way because they would be out of 529 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,239 Speaker 1: order in terms of ethical practice if they did it, 530 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,879 Speaker 1: because the memorandum of understanding was in place, but there 531 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,359 Speaker 1: was no legislation to back it up, and that's been 532 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: the difficulty. So now they are trying to introduce a 533 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,120 Speaker 1: legislation and we're still waiting for this parliament. They say, 534 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: before the end of this current parliament, this bill will 535 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: be tabled and that will be an attempt to bring 536 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 1: in legislation that finally confirms this. But you'll note that 537 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: this was first suggested by Theresa May. Then Boris Johnson 538 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: came and this is what four or five prime ministers ago. 539 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,720 Speaker 1: No political party yet has succeeded in bringing this forward 540 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,479 Speaker 1: because there is an enormous amount of opposition from all 541 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,560 Speaker 1: sorts of people, not only Christians and not only religious people, 542 00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,879 Speaker 1: but people who have got, you know, a different perspective 543 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:19,040 Speaker 1: on all of this, so I think it's going to 544 00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: be very challenging for the government to do this. 545 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,800 Speaker 3: And what happened with in twenty twelve with the London 546 00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,040 Speaker 3: bus campaign during the Olympics. 547 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 1: So at that time there were one thousand double decker 548 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: buses in London that carried the advert some people are gay, 549 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:42,960 Speaker 1: get over it. 550 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:44,840 Speaker 3: Oh right, okay, I remember that. 551 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, And this was during the time of the Olympics. 552 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: So we thought, well, it would be good to have 553 00:42:52,560 --> 00:43:00,600 Speaker 1: a counter adverts. So that's what we did, a counter 554 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 1: advert on twelve on twenty buses. That was the plan. 555 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,880 Speaker 1: Because we didn't have the resources to do one thousand buses. 556 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: We got permission to do it and everything was done. 557 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: It was designed in a way that kind of parodied 558 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: this advert, so it looked like the same but it 559 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,919 Speaker 1: said the opposite, in other words, some people were gay, 560 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 1: get over it. And that's what we went with. But 561 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 1: the night before this was all to hit the streets, 562 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:41,839 Speaker 1: Boris Johnson banned the advert. I claimed to be one 563 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: who really you know, pushed him forward because I think 564 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,480 Speaker 1: he got a tremendous amount of support by doing that, 565 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,320 Speaker 1: and shortly after was re elected as Mayor of London. 566 00:43:53,719 --> 00:44:01,320 Speaker 3: Sadly wow, okay, so there's no free speech in London, 567 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:06,959 Speaker 3: in England and the UK talk about core issues trust? 568 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 3: What is core issues trust? 569 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 1: So in two thousand and seven I wanted to start 570 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:21,520 Speaker 1: a Christian organization that would work on these issues. So, 571 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,160 Speaker 1: to cut a long story short, it was started. I 572 00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:30,880 Speaker 1: began working with individuals. This was before I had started 573 00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:35,720 Speaker 1: training as a psychotherapist. I just wanted to be there 574 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: for people who struggled as I had struggled. And eventually 575 00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: it became registered as a charity in Northern Ireland, much 576 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:55,400 Speaker 1: to the concern of the National Humanist Society and the 577 00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,880 Speaker 1: British Humanists and everybody who was appalled by the London 578 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,680 Speaker 1: US case. They were dead against us. But we were 579 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:08,240 Speaker 1: registered and have been since then and you know, continue 580 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,400 Speaker 1: to do our work and whatchory issues trust is is 581 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: there to support the church as it supports individuals who 582 00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: struggle in this area. And out of coor Ish's trust 583 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 1: has come X out Loud. I think you will obviously 584 00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: you know Tear and Liam and of course Matthew, Matthew Grek, 585 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:40,360 Speaker 1: we all work together on X out Loud and it's 586 00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:45,400 Speaker 1: it's a community of Christians who have experienced these issues 587 00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:49,840 Speaker 1: but have now found help and contentment and a way 588 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,719 Speaker 1: forward because of our relationship with the Lord Jesus. So 589 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 1: Core kind of looks after that and seeks to support it. 590 00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: We also have another project called the International Foundation for 591 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:12,240 Speaker 1: Therapeutic and Counseling Choice, which has been an attempt to 592 00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 1: build up Christian professionals and a lot of work has 593 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:24,200 Speaker 1: got gone into that. We are currently seeking accreditation in 594 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:29,279 Speaker 1: the UK. Talk about swimming upstream, that's I guess that's 595 00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:34,360 Speaker 1: what we do. But we believe that, you know, we 596 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: should have our place in the sun. We believe that 597 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 1: we should be professional. And you know, we've had enough 598 00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: of the accusations that anybody who works in this area is, 599 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: you know, a snake oil merchant. Okay, So let us 600 00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 1: accredit ourselves. Let us put ourselves out there and compete 601 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: on the same basis as everybody else who seeks registration. 602 00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,760 Speaker 1: And that's the process that we're going through at the moment. 603 00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,320 Speaker 3: And what happened with Barclay's Bank. 604 00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:19,040 Speaker 1: Well, in I think it was July twenty thirteen, fourteen, 605 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,080 Speaker 1: forgive me, I can't remember exactly. I just received a 606 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:29,360 Speaker 1: letter in the post saying Barclays was closing Core Issues 607 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 1: Trust's account and also the account of the International Federation 608 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 1: for Therapeutic and Counseling Choice. That's what it was first called. 609 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 1: I thought, what this is crazy, So I phoned them 610 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,360 Speaker 1: up and they said, no, no, you have three months, 611 00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 1: but we're closing your accounts finished. And about that time 612 00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 1: I started receiving, like I have the record somewhere, but 613 00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:04,920 Speaker 1: probably fifty or sixty calls, nuisance calls, threats of the 614 00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:12,160 Speaker 1: most you know, awful kind from all over the world, 615 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,959 Speaker 1: but especially from the UK. And apparently there had been 616 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:23,600 Speaker 1: a decision that okay, let's do something about this. Let's 617 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,799 Speaker 1: get Core Issues Trust, and he's the one you need 618 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,279 Speaker 1: to go after. So that's exactly what they did. They 619 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:37,239 Speaker 1: also went after my legal friends who were supporting me, 620 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:42,439 Speaker 1: jamming our phones, phoning us all hours of the night, 621 00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:48,480 Speaker 1: sending the most horrendous links and you know, opportunities to 622 00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 1: participate in this that and sideways. It was horrendous to 623 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: the point where we had to report it to the police. 624 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:05,879 Speaker 1: But sadly the police, you know, they have a very 625 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,880 Speaker 1: close relationship to LGBT organization, certainly in northern Ireland, So 626 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:16,520 Speaker 1: that didn't go very far and they closed the accounts 627 00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:21,080 Speaker 1: and nobody, no other bank would look at us. We 628 00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:29,320 Speaker 1: tried five or six different banking organizations, including Christian banking organizations. 629 00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:34,359 Speaker 1: Nobody would have anything to do with us. It all 630 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:39,239 Speaker 1: went to court and it eventually it got to the 631 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 1: point where Barclay's paid us out not a huge amount, 632 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:50,319 Speaker 1: but would not admit liability or guilt in any way 633 00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:57,360 Speaker 1: and would not restore our bank accounts. Eventually we persuaded 634 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:02,400 Speaker 1: a bank and they have thankfully given us access to 635 00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,600 Speaker 1: an account. We have one account for all of these 636 00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:10,680 Speaker 1: organizations and that's that's how we've operated. But it's been horrendous. 637 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,399 Speaker 3: Wow. I mean a lot of that is happening here too, 638 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:23,120 Speaker 3: but things are shifting in the current political climate. What so, 639 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:29,960 Speaker 3: what are you still practicing psychotherapy psychodrama therapy today? 640 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:36,319 Speaker 1: Well, I can't call myself a psychodrama psychotherapist because I 641 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,520 Speaker 1: was never allowed to qualify. So what I am is 642 00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:46,960 Speaker 1: a man with experience and some perspective and understanding. And 643 00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:50,560 Speaker 1: it's on that basis that I work with people. I 644 00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,839 Speaker 1: tell them what my limitations are. That way I am 645 00:50:54,920 --> 00:51:01,600 Speaker 1: able to refer them to people who are qualified in 646 00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,319 Speaker 1: a way that I was not allowed to be when 647 00:51:04,520 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: I need to do that. But I'm very actively involved 648 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:16,040 Speaker 1: in supporting X out Loud and the IFTCC and continuing 649 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: to do the work that basically says individuals should have 650 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,280 Speaker 1: the right and the freedom to go in the direction 651 00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:29,200 Speaker 1: that they want to go in, and the way I'm 652 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:32,560 Speaker 1: you know, I'm using my time is to try to 653 00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:38,040 Speaker 1: make sure that those rights are entrenched and that the 654 00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:44,799 Speaker 1: system recognizes the arguments that do exist and the literature 655 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:49,919 Speaker 1: that is clear that backs up this minority point of view. 656 00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,840 Speaker 1: We're not trying to change everybody's point of view, but 657 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,520 Speaker 1: we want our place in the sun, and we don't 658 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:02,560 Speaker 1: think that's unreason to ask that, and we are willing 659 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:11,120 Speaker 1: to professionalize ourselves. And there are increasing numbers of therapists 660 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:15,120 Speaker 1: who have had enough of the memorandum of understanding, want 661 00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:19,200 Speaker 1: out of their professional body and want the freedom to 662 00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:23,759 Speaker 1: support individuals in this area. And that's that's the direction 663 00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:26,319 Speaker 1: we would like to go in. 664 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,560 Speaker 3: M Well, there's a I'm sure you know about this, 665 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:35,319 Speaker 3: but there's a Supreme Court case here concerning minors and 666 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:40,000 Speaker 3: this the idea of conversion therapy or reintegrative therapy whatever 667 00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:41,919 Speaker 3: it is you want, whatever you want to call. 668 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:47,000 Speaker 1: It, but that's great. And the i TCC has done 669 00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,120 Speaker 1: an amicus brief. If you go on to their site, 670 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:56,920 Speaker 1: you'll see that we've submitted something towards that case. 671 00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:58,440 Speaker 3: Oh okay, I didn't know that. 672 00:53:00,560 --> 00:53:00,880 Speaker 2: Wow. 673 00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,239 Speaker 3: Well, and I don't know when that case will be 674 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:12,880 Speaker 3: officially decided. I think maybe this summer, but I but 675 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,560 Speaker 3: let's leave it there. Thank you so much, Mike for 676 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,560 Speaker 3: coming on the show and sharing all of this. I 677 00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:23,960 Speaker 3: hope that things do shift in the UK on this 678 00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,880 Speaker 3: and that people are able to get the help they want. 679 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:29,480 Speaker 3: I mean, we should all be able to get the 680 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:33,839 Speaker 3: help we want. I mean, there shouldn't be any obstacles 681 00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:36,319 Speaker 3: in the way. So I hope that changes in the UK. 682 00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,719 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Bickett. I really appreciate it. 683 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,400 Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Beckett 684 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:51,680 Speaker 2: Cook Show. Your support makes this content possible. All episodes 685 00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,640 Speaker 2: of The Beckett Cook Show are also available on YouTube. 686 00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:58,840 Speaker 2: For more information about Beckett and his ministry, visit his 687 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,160 Speaker 2: website at ben Cook dot com. 688 00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,239 Speaker 3: Thank you to the team at Life Audio for their 689 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:05,239 Speaker 3: partnership with us. 690 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:06,960 Speaker 4: If you go to lifeaudio dot 691 00:54:07,000 --> 00:54:09,960 Speaker 3: Com you will find more faith centered podcasts about prayer, 692 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:11,759 Speaker 3: Bible study, parenting, and more.