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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I am joined today by Lori Krieg,

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Speaker 1: who is the co author of a book with Matt Kreek,

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Speaker 1: her husband, Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World.

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Speaker 1: It's published by IVP and she is also the director

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Speaker 1: of parent Programs and Discipleship at the Center for Faith,

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Speaker 1: Sexuality and Gender. And So today we're going to be

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Speaker 1: discussing the book How to Raise Kids. It's going to

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Speaker 1: be a very child centered and parent centered discussion. But

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Speaker 1: welcome Laurie to the program.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean I think just you know, as a

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Speaker 1: first question, you know, just kind of dive into this

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Speaker 1: what prompted your interest in this book. Obviously you work

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Speaker 1: in this field as well, but what are you seeing

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Speaker 1: in the culture, What are you seeing in the church

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Speaker 1: that you feel like really gave you a passion to

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Speaker 1: write this book.

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Speaker 2: So I've been in this field professionally ministerially for the

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Speaker 2: last eleven years. Will be twelve in February, and our

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Speaker 2: oldest daughter is eleven years old. So as long as

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Speaker 2: I've been out teaching and equipping at the intersection of

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Speaker 2: faith and sexuality, I've been filtering it through my mom

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Speaker 2: brain and asking myself specifically, do we have to do

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Speaker 2: it the same way that we've always done this? And

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Speaker 2: the way that I was seeing is we're we've been

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Speaker 2: very reactionary when it comes to engaging conversations around face,

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Speaker 2: sexuality and gender. So ten twelve years ago, when I

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Speaker 2: was starting out, it was pastors being like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: there's same sex marriage past twenty fifteen, how do we

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Speaker 2: do addresses theologically? Our hair is on fire?

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Speaker 1: What do we do?

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Speaker 2: Or it's parents, Oh my gosh, my kids just came out,

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Speaker 2: or oh my word, my kid is addicted to porn,

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Speaker 2: or all my word, my kid wants a transition, And

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Speaker 2: so I just was asking, like, does it have to

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Speaker 2: be so care on fire whether our kids, you know,

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Speaker 2: experience same sex attractions or wrestle with their gender, wrestle

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Speaker 2: with pornography, Like can we lay anything foundationally ages zero

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Speaker 2: to twelve or is it all have to like come

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Speaker 2: at them as soon as they're thirteen? And what I'm

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Speaker 2: finding is there's a lot we can do before.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm mentioned to you before we started recording

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Speaker 1: that I have a twenty year old and then to

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Speaker 1: sixteen year olds. We had twins. I will say their

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Speaker 1: experience with dating is very different than mine was when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid. I don't know whether you had

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Speaker 1: that same experience, but I mean I had a girlfriend

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Speaker 1: or a date, right, I'm using air quotes for the

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Speaker 1: benefit of the audio only audience from you fifth grade

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Speaker 1: all the way through high school. I'm married my high

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Speaker 1: school sweetheart, and so when I watch my kids deal

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Speaker 1: with dating and relationships, it's extremely different than it used

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Speaker 1: to be.

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Speaker 3: How does that factor into some of this?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think you can't understate, like the effect,

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Speaker 2: you can't overstate the effect of technology on kids relationships period.

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Speaker 2: So whereas before you know you've had you when you're

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Speaker 2: growing up, Like in order to date who would be

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Speaker 2: your wife, you had to ask her out, you had

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Speaker 2: to have conversations, you had to be embodied in order

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Speaker 2: to establish relationships and move it forward. And now we've

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Speaker 2: totally separated so much of life from the relationship and

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Speaker 2: the embodied experience. It has a fragmenting effect on our minds,

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Speaker 2: on our bodies, on our ability to communicate, and that

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Speaker 2: is it's leaving an internal void inside of us. And

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Speaker 2: then we just start trying to chase connection, but it's

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Speaker 2: like we're chasing more fragments to feel that connection. So

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Speaker 2: I think it absolutely plays into these conversations because we're

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Speaker 2: just fragmented people trying to find pieces of relationships outside

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Speaker 2: of the embodied experience, and that's not how we were created.

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Speaker 1: I know, not all of this relates to your book,

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Speaker 1: but outside it sort of pro around the edges a

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Speaker 1: little bit. So I've heard a lot about the effects

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Speaker 1: of pornography, particularly Internet pornography, on you know, social relationships

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Speaker 1: of the next generation, because pornography is so available, and

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Speaker 1: I would say even more than pornography, like things like

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Speaker 1: scantily clad folks on Instagram or what have you right,

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Speaker 1: you're able to interact in these technological ways. How is

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Speaker 1: that skewing the sexuality in the next generation? How do

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Speaker 1: you think about that when you're raising a kid? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I mentioned you I have a four year old, and

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Speaker 1: so she's a little girl, four year old, where we

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Speaker 1: have sort of plans to deal with her social media

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Speaker 1: usage the same way we deal with our sixteen year

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Speaker 1: old girls, which is, you know, not for a very

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Speaker 1: long time, right, Like, just stay off it for a

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Speaker 1: really long time. But is there more that we need

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Speaker 1: to think about, more than we need to worry about

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Speaker 1: with that? I mean it's difficult, you know, you say,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to underestimate the sociological sort of effects of this.

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Speaker 3: So how should we be thinking about it? As Christians?

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Speaker 2: We need to think about how we're thinking about people

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Speaker 2: like you just said pornography. Yeah, but in our book,

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Speaker 2: you know, my husband Matt has this system. He talks

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Speaker 2: about mindsets. He's like, it's not just about Okay, I

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Speaker 2: consume porn, don't consume porn, it's why do you approach

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Speaker 2: humans as a consumer?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: How can we teach and equip our kids' minds to

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Speaker 2: view humans the way God views humans, which is through flourishing,

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Speaker 2: through giving, through self giving and love. So sure, there's

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Speaker 2: scantily clad things online or garbage everywhere, and it's extra

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Speaker 2: pervasive online, but how can we actually shape our kids'

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Speaker 2: minds and hearts so that when they are online, because

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Speaker 2: facts are there, gonna be like unless I don't know

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Speaker 2: how to avoid it. How can we teach them to

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Speaker 2: not be consumers of humans, but to view them as

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Speaker 2: image bearers of a beloved God to whom we can give.

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Speaker 2: That starts out when they're thirteen, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen and

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Speaker 2: you give them Instagram, it's zero to infinity. Is how

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Speaker 2: can we view beloved image bearers the way God views

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Speaker 2: us and how he calls us to do each other?

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Speaker 3: Do you see?

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Speaker 1: And I don't want to go too deep into the

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Speaker 1: technological sort of spiral here, but one of the things

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Speaker 1: when AI started coming out, one of the things I

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Speaker 1: sort of sat down and did was I'm like, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to commit to a few things with artificial intelligence.

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Speaker 1: One is, you know, don't use AI generated images. I'll

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Speaker 1: be honest, it's getting harder and harder not to bend

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Speaker 1: on that one. AI generated images, even on things like

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Speaker 1: adobe stock are becoming far more prevalent. It's hard to

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Speaker 1: find images that are human created. And so that one

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Speaker 1: I've I've found myself sort of saying like, do I

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Speaker 1: need to rethink that one? But the second one was

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Speaker 1: never write anything that you're going to send to another

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Speaker 1: human that you intend for human consumption with AI, right,

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Speaker 1: whether it's an email, a text, an article, an essay,

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Speaker 1: anything like that, Like, don't ever do that if you're

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Speaker 1: going to be interacting with humans, even through you know,

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Speaker 1: printed materials, actually be yourself, like, don't have that mediating effect.

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Speaker 1: And then I think the third was just you know,

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Speaker 1: recognize that AI is only going to be good for

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Speaker 1: certain things and that it can really get in the

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Speaker 1: way of our human to human relationships even when they're

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Speaker 1: technologically mediated. So as sort of a guideline, you sit

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Speaker 1: back and say, Okay, even if I could use this

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Speaker 1: to communicate, even if I could use this to sort

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Speaker 1: of be more efficient in the way that I develop relationships,

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't do that. Relationships should be a little bit

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Speaker 1: more arduous and difficult and hard. So we're having this

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Speaker 1: conversation on riverside, right, it's obviously a technological platform we're

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Speaker 1: interacting in real time. We're going to have sort of

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Speaker 1: awkward moments throughout the podcast. We're going to have good moments,

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Speaker 1: you know, like that's a human interaction even though it's

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Speaker 1: technologically mediated.

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Speaker 3: But AI tends to sort of blunt those as supposed

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Speaker 3: to sharpen them. Does any of that resonate?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? You know when I think about my little kids

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Speaker 2: I've just started. First of all, AI freaks me the

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Speaker 2: heck out. I mean, you watch ten Instagram reels and

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Speaker 2: you're like, Okay, my kids are never going to use

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Speaker 2: tech because it's all garbage, Like truly, you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: seeing this stuff from like legit sources. How AI is

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Speaker 2: like blackmailing executives when it hears it's going to get

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Speaker 2: a reboot. You hear about like if you read the

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Speaker 2: transcript between AI and people who it has basically encouraged

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Speaker 2: it to end their lives, You're like, so this is

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Speaker 2: Satan's voice, huh, Like this is how Satan talks. Is

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Speaker 2: like coaxed them into this stupor and they end up

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Speaker 2: ending they're taking their own lives. So it freaks me out.

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Speaker 2: So as a mom as you're saying these things and

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Speaker 2: like the boundaries that you're having. My kids are at

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Speaker 2: these ages at eleven, nine and six, they're they're not

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Speaker 2: using AI. But I'm thinking, Laurie, what are the parameters

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Speaker 2: you're gonna put around your kids? And I think, what

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Speaker 2: you know, I need to do more research. I think

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Speaker 2: we need more studies, just similar to like Johnathan Height's

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Speaker 2: work and all of it, where we're like, yeah, let's

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Speaker 2: not copy paste that. Let's not go put iPhones in

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Speaker 2: the hands of ten year olds, right, let's not. Let's

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, we need to pause. We need to

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Speaker 2: do some research. But I do know I want to

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Speaker 2: use AI for information, not relationships. That to me, the

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Speaker 2: number one use is therapy therapy, and I have people

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Speaker 2: now reaching out to me through my contact form. People

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Speaker 2: are reaching out to my husband through his therapy world,

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Speaker 2: and they're like, I can't stop talking to AI. I

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Speaker 2: know it's wrong, I just keep going. It's my only friend.

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Speaker 2: So that is one thing that I'm like, there is

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Speaker 2: a very addictive and I feel like sinister nature to it. Now,

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Speaker 2: don't put me on the records for that. I'm not

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Speaker 2: going down on the books like it's all evil. But

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Speaker 2: I think for us to view it at all, and

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Speaker 2: to teach our kids to see it at all as

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Speaker 2: a relational means is dangerous, But to see it as

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Speaker 2: informational at this point, I'm like, I can see it

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Speaker 2: as helpful there when it doesn't get it wrong, which it.

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Speaker 3: Does, which it does.

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Speaker 1: But I know, I know your your book isn't you know,

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Speaker 1: raising white skids in a technologically broken world? So we

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Speaker 1: should probably get around to sexually broken and I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, internet pornography.

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Speaker 3: Is a portion of that.

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Speaker 1: I had some folks on who do some amazing ministry

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Speaker 1: in the pornography space and really think it through very well.

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Speaker 1: But I'm wondering, when you think about sexual brokenness, what

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Speaker 1: are you really talking about? Give people a handle that

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Speaker 1: they can understand, you know. Is this just about transgender?

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Speaker 1: Is it just about you know? What is it that

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Speaker 1: we're talking about here? In a sexually broken world?

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Speaker 2: So God's vision for sexuality, for us to steward our sexuality.

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Speaker 2: The place where sex is supposed to happen is in

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Speaker 2: a covenant between two sexually different people, and sex says

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Speaker 2: to the other person, just as Jesus covenanted to be

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Speaker 2: one with me, he says, take communion to remember that covenant.

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Speaker 2: My giving to you in this sexual union is me redeclaring.

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Speaker 2: My covenant to you is me saying I am faithful

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Speaker 2: to you. In all these other areas of life, I

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Speaker 2: recovenant to you. That is sexual If you want to

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Speaker 2: use the word purity, that is where God wants sex

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Speaker 2: to happen. For our single friends, you're giving that up

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Speaker 2: for the sake of the gospel. When you feel that

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Speaker 2: sexual desire, if God has called you to singleness, you're

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Speaker 2: giving that up for Jesus. You're saying, Jesus, you are worthy.

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Speaker 2: And the only marriage that I am called to that

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Speaker 2: I everyone will be eventually in is this covenant. Is

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Speaker 2: this union with you in eternity. So, married people, that's

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Speaker 2: where sex happens. This is covenant, renewals, ceremony, that's where

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Speaker 2: sex happens. Single people, you're giving it up for the

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Speaker 2: sake of gospel. You're displaying the eternal marriage, the value,

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Speaker 2: the priceless value of knowing Jesus Christ, our Lord, so

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Speaker 2: and anything outside of that is sexual brokenness. Yeah, women,

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Speaker 2: straight married women are the hardest women for me to

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Speaker 2: convince are sexually broken. When you see marriage, we see

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Speaker 2: sex as a transaction, I'll give my husband sex so

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Speaker 2: that he does more housework. I saw one study that

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Speaker 2: said eighty four percent of married women do that. That's

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Speaker 2: sexual brokenness. So anything outside of God's beautiful covenant marriage

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Speaker 2: or celibate covenant singleness to Jesus is sexual brokenness. However,

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Speaker 2: in the book for this sake of clarity, where we

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Speaker 2: are talking about God's beauty and then how we can

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Speaker 2: teach our kids to live in a broken world, where

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Speaker 2: we engage these areas marriage and singleness, and we talk

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Speaker 2: about how to talk about sex, like I just talked

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Speaker 2: about it gender, What is God's vision for gender because

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Speaker 2: in our sex bodies there is a God's vision there.

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Speaker 2: And we talk about porn prevention, so pornography is so

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Speaker 2: prevalent when we talk about sexual abuse prevention. So those

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Speaker 2: are the five areas that we really try and help

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Speaker 2: parents and caregivers the next generation to understand what's a

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Speaker 2: beauty and how can we equip our kids to live

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Speaker 2: in a world where it's full of distortions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's let me kind of probe in a few

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Speaker 1: different places for that, because I think it's really interesting

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Speaker 1: the way you all address marriage and signalness I very

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Speaker 1: much are.

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Speaker 3: I appreciated the whole book, but those chapters.

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Speaker 1: I just had a conversation with a gentleman who works

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Speaker 1: with primarily a homosexual community and was advocating for singleness

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Speaker 1: within the homosexual community, and part of his argument was that,

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Speaker 1: you know, the theology of marriage and the theology of

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Speaker 1: singleness really do need to go together. There needs to

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Speaker 1: be some sort of a fit there. To understand almost

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Speaker 1: the way you articulated it, that you're either married to

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Speaker 1: another person and this is a covenant relationship that now

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Speaker 1: you're faithful to, or your covenant relationship is primarily with

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Speaker 1: Christ and now you're giving up something the physical act

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Speaker 1: of sex, in order to serve Christ more fully. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure those are the words I should

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Speaker 1: be using, but I do think that there is something

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Speaker 1: around marriage and singleness that we struggle with because, as

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Speaker 1: parents model to their kids what this covenant is to

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Speaker 1: look like, it's difficult to get behind that covenant, that

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Speaker 1: covenant relationship, no matter how much how well you model

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Speaker 1: it to the choice that you made prior to entering.

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Speaker 3: Into that covenant relationship. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: It's like, how did I choose to become married versus

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Speaker 1: choosing to remain single. What was my thought process? And

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Speaker 1: for me personally, I would sit back and say, I'm

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Speaker 1: not sure. I gave it a ton of thought. Right,

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Speaker 1: it was almost the right. It's the default setting. It's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna get married. Now happy I'm married, I'm happy,

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Speaker 1: I have kids. I'm like not regretting that decision at all.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, I don't recall going through

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Speaker 1: a real strong discernment process before entering into that relationship.

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Speaker 3: It was the default setting. So how do you help

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Speaker 3: kids sort of adjust that default setting?

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Speaker 2: So I mentioned five areas that we talk about in

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Speaker 2: the book 'age singing a sex, gender or in French

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Speaker 2: body safety. The first section we talk about is the Gospel.

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Speaker 2: And I don't just talk about that to be like, hey, guys,

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Speaker 2: I just said, like the cheat code. So trust me

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Speaker 2: and buy this book because I said gospel, verily, Verily,

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Speaker 2: I say, unto the we don't know what we're doing

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Speaker 2: on this earth as Christians. When I go and speak places,

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Speaker 2: this is a question I ask everyone. I say, what's

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Speaker 2: the purpose of your life? And the room is either

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Speaker 2: crickets or or someone quotes to me the shorter Westminster Cabchism. Sure,

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Speaker 2: what's the chief and of man? To glorify God and

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Speaker 2: enjoy him forever? And like great love it we say

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Speaker 2: that the purpose of our life is to glorify God

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Speaker 2: and enjoy Him forever. But we actually live and what

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Speaker 2: we preach to our kids and what is preached to

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Speaker 2: us is that the purpose of your life is to

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Speaker 2: get married, make Christian babies, tithe and die. Yeah, Like

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Speaker 2: truly that's the goal? Like why was it the default

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Speaker 2: setting for you? I'm guessing and growing up in your home,

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Speaker 2: it was a lot of when you get married, it's

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Speaker 2: you go to college, you get a job, you get married,

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Speaker 2: you have kids. It's like all the levels up. That's

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Speaker 2: how you level up. But that is not the Bible,

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Speaker 2: that's not the gospel a purpose of our life. So yes,

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Speaker 2: the purpose is a glorify God and enjoy him forever.

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Speaker 2: But we also have a mission, and our mission is

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Speaker 2: not to get married. Our mission comes from Genesis one

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Speaker 2: twenty eight, that's emphasizing Matthew twenty eight, and it is

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Speaker 2: to be fruitful, supply faility, or to subdue rule. What

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Speaker 2: does that mean? We're supposed to be vice regions. We're

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Speaker 2: supposed to be kings, queen's priests. We're supposed to live

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Speaker 2: as God lives and not just reflect his image and

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Speaker 2: just like sit and be shiny, happy people. We're supposed

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Speaker 2: to be advancing his rule and reign. We're supposed to

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Speaker 2: transform this beautiful garden into the city of God. That's

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Speaker 2: the Telos of the Bible, that is His kingdom on

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Speaker 2: earth as it is in heaven. So we do that

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Speaker 2: as married or single people. Those are both equally valuable

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Speaker 2: ways we live out the mission to how I say

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Speaker 2: it to my kids, what their mission is. Your mission

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Speaker 2: is to push back the darkness and usher in the light. So, guys,

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Speaker 2: you get to do this as the married or single people.

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Speaker 2: When my kids don't want to go to school, when

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Speaker 2: they don't want to do their homework, when they don't

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Speaker 2: want to do anything, Hey, guys, you know what's so cool?

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Speaker 2: I want to say. I want to say that moment,

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Speaker 2: you need to get married so you can get a

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Speaker 2: good job. And you know you need to go to

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Speaker 2: school so you can get married and get a good

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Speaker 2: job and get out. That's not the mission of God.

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Speaker 2: I say, you know why you need to go to school? Why, Mom,

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Speaker 2: Because God has an incredible job for you. Do you

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Speaker 2: remember what our mission is? Yes, Mom, to push back

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Speaker 2: the darkness and usher in the light. And God has

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Speaker 2: made you to be a little light warrior. And when

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Speaker 2: you go to school, you actually get to figure out

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Speaker 2: how God has made you. He's given you specific gifts,

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Speaker 2: specific ways to push back that darkness. When you go

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Speaker 2: to school, you're getting trained for how the beautiful calling

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Speaker 2: God has on your life. I said nothing about marriage,

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Speaker 2: I said, I said everything about the Kingdom of God.

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Speaker 2: Why don't I say anything about marriage? Because why, I

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Speaker 2: don't know what God has for my kids. I actually

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Speaker 2: don't just give it lip service. I actually truly believe

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Speaker 2: that marriage and singleness are equally valuable. What if God

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Speaker 2: has called my kids singleness and I've been preaching when

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Speaker 2: you get married and that's the only way to live

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Speaker 2: in the Kingdom of God, I'm just going against God's

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Speaker 2: will for them because singleness or what if one of

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Speaker 2: my kids experience the same sex attractions? Yeah, and their

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Speaker 2: entire life. I've been saying, when you get married. So

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Speaker 2: when they're eighteen, nineteen twenty or thirteen, Mom, I'm actually

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Speaker 2: attracted to the same sex you've been saying, when you

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Speaker 2: get married, my whole life. So here's my same sex spouse.

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Speaker 2: I'm either going to be like, oh my word, my

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Speaker 2: life is over. Their life is over. Or I could say,

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Speaker 2: you know what, honey, some people experience attractions for the

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Speaker 2: same sex. God is his vision for marriage is this

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Speaker 2: between sexually different people. So it seems like perhaps God

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Speaker 2: is calling you to surrender those to Jesus and get

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Speaker 2: back on mission. Yeah, your life is not over if

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Speaker 2: you experience the same sex attraction. Your life is not over.

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Speaker 2: If God has called you to marriage, your life is

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Speaker 2: still on mission to advance the Kingdom of God. So

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Speaker 2: how do we not have our kids see marriage as

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Speaker 2: the default? Is we actually got to believe it first. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we actually have to believe that the Kingdom of God

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Speaker 2: is our primary concern and we have to see that

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Speaker 2: as number one. And then we'll start preaching it in simple,

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Speaker 2: age appropriate language.

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Speaker 1: It's been a really interesting I would say, it's been

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Speaker 1: an interesting journey for me to sort of come to this.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean, I'm an Old Testament geek, but I

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Speaker 1: you know, I do work in both Testaments. I'm my

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Speaker 1: backgrounds in theology and so I've studied those passages where

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Speaker 1: Paul talks about singleness and pretty extensively, and you sort

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Speaker 1: of sit back and you're like, this is a real

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Speaker 1: viable option even today, despite the cultural scripts that we

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Speaker 1: tend to.

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Speaker 3: Accept.

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Speaker 1: And so, but I will also say that there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a motivating factor for me. You know, when I

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Speaker 1: talk to my kids and we I'm a very sarcastic

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Speaker 1: human being, and so when I talk to my kids,

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Speaker 1: they know I'm a very sarcastic human being. But you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, telling my daughters they shouldn't day till after college,

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Speaker 1: those kind of things. I know they know I'm joking,

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Speaker 1: but there's an element of me that is also very

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Speaker 1: serious with them when I talk to them about they

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Speaker 1: don't need to get married. Yeah, Like there's an aspect

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Speaker 1: of it that you just sit back and it was like,

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Speaker 1: this is what was right for Mom and I. This

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Speaker 1: is the decision we made. This was a good decision

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Speaker 1: for us. But at the end of the day, the

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Speaker 1: Great Commission, unlike and I would say sort of unlike

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Speaker 1: the Old Testament, I tend to view it as a

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Speaker 1: matter of emphasis. And I'll see if you agree with

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Speaker 1: this Old Testament. There is an emphasis on biological reproduction

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Speaker 1: because there is a largely a covenant with a nation

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Speaker 1: that needs to biologically reproduce and then and then make disciples,

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Speaker 1: is the way I would phrase it. You need to

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Speaker 1: biologically reproduce and then make disciples. When you get to

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Speaker 1: the New Testament, the emphasis is on, no, just make disciples,

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Speaker 1: and when you biologically reproduce, or if you biologically reduced,

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Speaker 1: also make disciples.

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Speaker 2: It's good.

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Speaker 3: It's a shift in emphasis.

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Speaker 1: It's not a drastic wrenching like, hey, you had to

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Speaker 1: have kids over here and you don't have to have

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Speaker 1: them over here.

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Speaker 3: That's not the point. And so it's not that sort of.

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Speaker 1: You know, ninety degree sharp turn. It's a shift in emphasis.

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Speaker 1: And so what I'm trying to say is, no, you

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Speaker 1: you always make disciples. No matter what you do, You're

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Speaker 1: always making disciples. The question is whether those disciples are

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Speaker 1: your own kids or whether they're.

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Speaker 3: Just somebody else.

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Is that a yeah? Am I kind of scratching where

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Speaker 3: you know? Am I hitting on the right note here?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I love it, And I you know,

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Speaker 2: I'll bring this up when we go and speak and

433
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 2: do conferences and stuff on parenting as I was like parents,

434
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 2: like I feel with you. You have this natural instinct

435
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:01,680
Speaker 2: inside of you that's that wants to wear the sweatshirt

436
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: that says, if I had known having grand babies was

437
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 2: this good, I would have had them first, right, Like,

438
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 2: we have this, we want to see our kids have kids. Yeah,

439
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 2: but we're not looking deep enough or big enough. Is

440
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 2: God doesn't just want image bearers on the earth, which

441
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: he does. He wants more of his image. He wants

442
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 2: little Christs on the earth. So that's either through your

443
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: body and making them into conforming them into the image

444
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 2: of Christ by the power of the spirit God willing.

445
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 2: That's a discipleship process, or that's through disciple babies. So

446
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 2: if God's called you to singleness, You're gonna make little

447
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 2: disciple babies. You got babies from your body who become disciples.

448
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 2: You're gonna have disciple babies who That's a language in

449
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: the New Testament is parenting language. Paul, You see that, John,

450
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: is that there's this real relationship between parenting and discipleship.

451
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 2: I think is very interesting.

452
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, Paul, despite being single, has many sons and daughters,

453
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: many sort of frames it like that. So yeah, fantastic.

454
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: Let me switch gears a little bit to gender. So

455
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: gender is interesting. You talked about our sext bodies, and

456
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: I've done a little thinking about this. I became uncomfortable

457
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: with the conversations around Christian masculinity at some point in

458
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: the past. It just felt like it was more machismo

459
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: than actually manhood. And so to me, it's like, if

460
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: we're going to have these sex bodies male and female,

461
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: what it means to be a Christian male has to

462
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: emerge from discipleship. And this gives you a certain or

463
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: Christian female obviously, but it gives you a uniqueness that is,

464
00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: it's uniquely you. You are not only male, but you're

465
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: a whole host of other things. You're not only female,

466
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: but you're a whole host of other things, and those

467
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: things are shaped and formed through the discipleship process such

468
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: that you become a Christian male or a you know,

469
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: a male disciple or a female disciple through this process

470
00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: of recognizing the authority of Christ. Gender has always felt

471
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: to me like that sort of when we say masculinity

472
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: and femininity, these are almost stereotypical notions that compete with

473
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: discipleship in some degree, and so I'm kind of interested

474
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: in your take on some of that, like how do

475
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,600
Speaker 1: you think about gender as opposed to sex, and how

476
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: do you think about gender from a biblical perspective.

477
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 2: I know, this gets real hairy, and you'll notice I

478
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,680
Speaker 2: didn't really get into it in our book, so I

479
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 2: was a little bit intentional. I was like, if you

480
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 2: want to write the next biblical manhood and womanhood book,

481
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 2: go to town. It's very hard to find anything in

482
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: the Bible about biblical masculinity and femininity that is outside

483
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 2: of marriage roles and church roles.

484
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 3: I agree, like, yeah, you can't find it, and.

485
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 2: You know through the spirit is not gendered. I I

486
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 2: don't know how deeply I can get into this without

487
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 2: getting like in trouble, but I think it is interesting. Gosh,

488
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: let's start this conversation with that sentence. I appreciated the

489
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: only works that I've appreciated on this conversation on the

490
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: subject as far as gender and sex. So sex and

491
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 2: gender I think should be together. We are to what

492
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 2: it means to be a man is it has to

493
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: do with your biological sex. How do you feel inside

494
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: of your biology, biological body, inside of your body as

495
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: male or as female? Some people don't feel like they

496
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 2: belong inside their body. That's why we use that word

497
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 2: gender sometimes, like your gender and your sex, don't Matt,

498
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: Should they be separate? No, that is not intended design. However,

499
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: some people are like, well, I actually in my male body,

500
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: I don't feel like a man. But then as you

501
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: start asking questions like what does it mean to be

502
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 2: a man? It starts getting real squishy.

503
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 3: Right, It's like what do you mean right?

504
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: Or what's it mean to be a female? Like I'll

505
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 2: ask at these conferences we do, I'm like, raise your

506
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: hand if you're the ideal specimen of female. Zero women

507
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: feel like the ideal woman, zero men feel like the

508
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: ideal man. We all have some operation. But there are

509
00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: friends for whom they have gender dysphoria, or that dissonance

510
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 2: between their insides and their outsides is extreme and that

511
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: is not a sin. That's the effects of sin on them.

512
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 2: I would say, is that that's living in a broken world,

513
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 2: and it is extreme, and I have grief and pain

514
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: for them. It's not dissimilar to how I feel as

515
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: someone who's experienced sexual trauma. When I get triggered. My

516
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: body might be in a safe place, but inside. I

517
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: don't feel safe.

518
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: Yeah?

519
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: Am I not safe? No? Should it be that way? No?

520
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: Is that the me sinning? No, that's the effects of

521
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: sin on me. There's this dissonance. So we need tough

522
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: compassion and care and love and tenderness. But about gender,

523
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 2: does it mean to be a political man or woman?

524
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:26,520
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I hate it. But the only book

525
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: that I have kind of relatively thought this is interesting

526
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 2: is actually Larry Krabb's book Fully Alive. Have you ever

527
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: heard of this? Yeah?

528
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, Fully Alive?

529
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: Did you read it? I did?

530
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 3: Yeah.

531
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 2: So scholarship isn't great, but I think it'd be from

532
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: what my like pres and sprangle. He's like, I don't

533
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 2: love it, but I do think it'd be interesting to say, Okay,

534
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: if there is anything to biblical manhood or womanhood, is

535
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: there anything to our biology that speaks to what it

536
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:56,719
Speaker 2: means to be a man? Is there anything to our

537
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: biology about speaks to be a woman. It's interesting at

538
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: least the start of a conversation.

539
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 3: Agreed.

540
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of And I will say I

541
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: appreciate it from that perspective, I think where I look

542
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: at it and I say, you know so much of

543
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,479
Speaker 1: this stuff exists on a spectrum, right, So you can

544
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: talk about on average, men are more aggressive than women.

545
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: Let's say, yeah, but you can't say that every man.

546
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: Then if a man is not aggressive, he's not masculine.

547
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: And that's where all this sort of stuff starts to

548
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: break down. And so it's it's a very difficult thing,

549
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: I think for us to conceive of this idea that

550
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: there's a predominant male or predominant female set of characteristics

551
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: and then say that Christian men and women should conform

552
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: to those, and I would just not like the way

553
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: I've tried. The question that I got stuck on was

554
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 1: is Jesus is David? Is Isaiah? Is Jeremiah is Joseph?

555
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: Are these biblical characters ideal men in the sext perspective?

556
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: Or are they ideals of the faith? When I read

557
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: Hebrews eleven, should I skip over Rahab as a man?

558
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 1: Or should I be learning from her example? And those

559
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: are the parts where I'm kind of sitting there, like,

560
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: I think we've just had this sort of masculinity femininity

561
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: conversation in a way wrong.

562
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 3: Note.

563
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: I think there needs to be some sort of resetting

564
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: of it, and we need to just sort of look

565
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: back and go, Look, I like what you're saying. If

566
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: discipleship is at the root of all this stuff, why

567
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 1: is it that we're adopting these misconceptions about what a

568
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 1: man is. Is if because I bench more than someone else,

569
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: I'm more masculine, or if I like camping, you know,

570
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: I'm more macho.

571
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 2: Point to the verse that says that, right.

572
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: These things just don't work, and so it's a really

573
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: interesting and difficult I think sort of point. But I

574
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: love that your your comment about, look, your gender and

575
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: your sex should match. Yeah, and I think maybe and

576
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: see if you agree with this, would the next logical

577
00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: question be, then what is your gender?

578
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 3: Sort of how are we understanding that.

579
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 2: It should be your biological sex should be your gender,

580
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: those should be aligned.

581
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

582
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 2: Do people struggle with that? Yes? Is it on a spectrum? Yeah,

583
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 2: But it's like who's who's writing the extremes. It's like

584
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: culture is saying what it means to be a man

585
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: and a woman. So it's I will say, when I

586
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: walk with my friends who wrestle with their gender, they're

587
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 2: grateful for the more like, Okay, I'm supposed to look

588
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: like Jesus and I'm just gonna love my version of female. Yeah,

589
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: even though if I'm a born biological female. If I'm thinking.

590
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: You know, my friend Kat who wrestles with her gender,

591
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: she's a biological female, and she that was actually very

592
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 2: helpful for her was to think and actually reading Fully

593
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: Alive was kind of helpful for her to be like,

594
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: maybe there is something to my biology that makes me female.

595
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 2: This open to receive and to nourish, as he says.

596
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,480
Speaker 2: But she was like, is there a way I can

597
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: just love and embrace my version of female as God

598
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: has made me? So I'm not trying to reject it.

599
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to say I'm male, But can I

600
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: just live into this is me? My gender is I

601
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: don't know. It's like when you start staring at it

602
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 2: too long, it gets so you just your eyes go

603
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 2: get crossed. It's like, Okay, accept my body. I don't

604
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 2: always feel like the ideal woman or even like a woman,

605
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 2: But God, I am choosing to accept this tension. Yeah,

606
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 2: and honor you in this tension. And isn't the Christian

607
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: life basically yeah, free, free, new heavens, new Earth. Like God,

608
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 2: I'm choosing to glorify you in this already. Not yet,

609
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: I'm choosing to glorify you in the midst of whatever

610
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: He has allowed us to suffer with.

611
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,799
Speaker 1: It's really interesting, you say, I mean, when I look

612
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: at the New Testament and I see the master slave

613
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 1: dynamics that are pointed there, and I know slavery isn't

614
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 1: exactly the same as what we're used to in America

615
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: and all that kind of good stuff. But there's no

616
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: point in history that being a bond servant was actually

617
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: the ideal position. But what is Paul talking about when

618
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 1: he deals with these things. He's saying, right, just own it.

619
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: You can minister, you can have a ministry. You can

620
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,120
Speaker 1: glorify God in this moment. You don't have to get

621
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: out of this situation in order to glorify God in

622
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: order to be faithful. And you can live as a

623
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 1: bond servant and be faithful to Christ both at the

624
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: same time, and you can do that in unique ways.

625
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: It seems like there's a lesson there for us when

626
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:05,520
Speaker 1: we're struggling with something like gender, When we sit back

627
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 1: and say, yeah, there's this real deep tension.

628
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 3: Maybe it's not way. We're not in the ideal situation.

629
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,919
Speaker 1: Probably none of us are no, But at the same time,

630
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,879
Speaker 1: there's that extra focus and it just feels like there's

631
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: you know, the way you describe marriage I think is

632
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,279
Speaker 1: so beautiful. It just feels like the way we could

633
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: talk about gender is very similar. Even if you're experiencing

634
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: that tension between sex and gender, there's a disconnect. It's like, well,

635
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,439
Speaker 1: you don't have to change that in order to glorify God.

636
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 2: Yes, And even in living in that tension, Like I'm

637
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 2: just telling you my friends who wrestle in this space,

638
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: I'm just so in awe of their faithful Yeah, suffering

639
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 2: and glorifying God and joy and it's not all just

640
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: like everything's terrible, Like I like, aren't you blessed when

641
00:36:54,840 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: you watch someone who's suffering? Well, yeah, it's just taps

642
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,959
Speaker 2: the spirit and I says, looking for Jesus. It's such

643
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 2: a beautiful christ like reflection to say this is not

644
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: ideal got them to glorify and honor you in the

645
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 2: midst of it. Yeah, it's pretty incredible.

646
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: Well, let's dive into that sort of third leg at

647
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: this point, the spiritual abuse aspect or the sexual abuse aspect.

648
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, not sexual abuse.

649
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 1: The sexual abuse aspect talk a little bit about that,

650
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: because I think this is a really crucial aspect, not

651
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: only from the perspective of kids you might get sexually abused,

652
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: but also of how sexual abuse is sort of becoming

653
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: more rampant in our culture.

654
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: I know it's too florable. So at least one out

655
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: of four of our daughters will experience childhood sexual abuse

656
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 2: before the eighteen and at least one out of ten

657
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 2: I've read like one out of five boys we'll experience it.

658
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 2: And you know, it's something no one wants to talk

659
00:37:54,280 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: about or think about. But I am again after writing

660
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: this book and doing all the study and gender and

661
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 2: I know everyone's like, ah, my word, LGBTQ stuff. We're

662
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 2: all freaking out. I walked away from writing this book

663
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:15,480
Speaker 2: and doing all the research the most concerned about pornography

664
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 2: and specifically how much it is growing younger and it's

665
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 2: leading to the abuse of children. And this is only

666
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 2: increased since COVID, and it's only increasing now with AI

667
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: and live streamed abuse that's happening in third world countries.

668
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,200
Speaker 2: It's deplorable. It feels almost inevitable, like our kids are

669
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: going to get hurt. But I don't declare that over anyone,

670
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,760
Speaker 2: But it feels like it's just rampant.

671
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it is. Statistically it is, right, how do you?

672
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: I mean, there's the inevitable question of how do you

673
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: deal with someone who's been sexually abused? And I think

674
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 1: even more, maybe more crucial, is how do we proactively

675
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 1: address this as parents such that we can help our

676
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 1: kids avoid both. Maybe being sexually abused isn't avoidable, right,

677
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: maybe we can help them avoid sexually abusing others. Yeah, yeah,

678
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: I think pornography is a form of sexual abuse that

679
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 1: we don't often recognize as such.

680
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 3: And so how do we think this through with our kids?

681
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? So from a young age, top way to prevent

682
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,520
Speaker 2: childhood sexual abuse is teach your kid biological body parts.

683
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 2: That seems countertwited, like what are you talking about teaching

684
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: your kids not nicknames for private parts, but the names

685
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 2: of them. I don't know if I want to get

686
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 2: an e on your podcast, but thank you every body

687
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,320
Speaker 2: part that you could say, and it doesn't if you

688
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: don't know how to say it with confidence. Just practice

689
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 2: and as you're washing your baby you have a good

690
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 2: elbow and knee and good private parts, say it out

691
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 2: loud as they're getting older, to not be shamed, to

692
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 2: not laugh, to not make fun of them, but to

693
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: honor them as special. We do not cover up private

694
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 2: parts because they're bad. We cover them up because we

695
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 2: honor them as special. Because they're the only parts of

696
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 2: their body that can produce a mago day life. So

697
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 2: we want to honor them. So, oh, that's why we

698
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 2: shut the door. So from a very young age, why

699
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: it is teaching about private parts, anatomical names, biological names

700
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 2: for private parts, because teaches your kid that you're not

701
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: ashamed of them. They don't need to hide them, they

702
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 2: can talk about them. These are not things that we're

703
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 2: scared of. Also teaches your kids if someone's trying to

704
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: prey on them, to groom them, to try and hurt them,

705
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,800
Speaker 2: which the majority of predation happens by someone or kids know,

706
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 2: or an acquaintance or someone at church, different daycares, but

707
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 2: usually it's a relative or family friend or neighbor. There's

708
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 2: a lot of peer on peer abuse as well, and

709
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 2: at recess happening right now it's increasing. But your kids

710
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:06,640
Speaker 2: no private part names. That's going to signal to a

711
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 2: potential groomer, who often use nicknames for private parts. It's

712
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 2: going to signal to them that they have parents who

713
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:17,320
Speaker 2: are teaching them, they have involved parents. And then also

714
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 2: if your kid comes home and they're saying some strange

715
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: names for their private parts, you're gonna be like, what

716
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 2: in the world, why are they saying this? And so

717
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: it's going to signal to you that maybe something's going on. Also,

718
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 2: if God forbid, something happens to our kids, if they

719
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: have specific names for even different parts of their private parts,

720
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 2: that is going to help police, help them to get

721
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 2: to say exactly what happened to them without it being

722
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 2: like a nickname. So that's the number one way to

723
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:50,359
Speaker 2: prevent childo sexual abuse. Also, having family rules to give

724
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 2: a list in the book, like start from very young,

725
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: and I say it with joy, I don't say it

726
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 2: with fear. I'm like, all right, we don't ask to see,

727
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 2: don't ask to touch, don't show or play with other

728
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 2: people's private parts, or show anyone our own. We have

729
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 2: family rules. When friends are over, we always keep doors open.

730
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 2: I know, isn't moms super annoying. We just always keep

731
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: doors open because a lot of things happen in play.

732
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 2: I don't care if I'm the annoying, mom, I am

733
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 2: always going to be saying that with joy inconsistency. We

734
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: don't ask to see or touch or show our own

735
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: private parts. We always keep doors open, we shut doors

736
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 2: when we go to the bathroom. And this is just

737
00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 2: because we honor there's a lot of shame talk in

738
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: the eighties and nineties. That's a shame. It's not shame.

739
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: This is honoring private parts for the value that they are.

740
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: So that's a big thing. So teach private parts have

741
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 2: family rules. And the third thing is treat the internet

742
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: like you are dropping your kids off downtown New York

743
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 2: City in the middle of the night. Yeah, you would

744
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 2: never do that, So our kids they know. I'm like, yeah,

745
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: you know what, the world is kind of a sketchy place,

746
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 2: and there's certain time that we need to be really

747
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 2: extra careful. Do you know is a very dangerous place.

748
00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: The internet, And I don't freak them out. We're not

749
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 2: doing seventeen paragraphs on that. But in our home the

750
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 2: tone is we're sus of the internet. We're not like overjoyed.

751
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 2: And so that takes me as a mom to not

752
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,720
Speaker 2: be addicted to my phone and me loving the internet.

753
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: So I want my kids when they have more access

754
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 2: to tread cautiously as I would want them to tread

755
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 2: cautiously in the middle of New York City in the

756
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 2: middle of the night. So I'm going to have guardrails,

757
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 2: I'm going to have, you know, be able to see

758
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 2: what they're doing. But we need to overprotect online and

759
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 2: then allow our kids free play where it's safe. But

760
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: then having those family rules. Teaching anatomical body parts, I mean,

761
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 2: cautious online and teaching our kids caution is a good

762
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 2: beginning to preventing childhood sexual abuse, would.

763
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 3: You say too. I mean one of the experiences I've had.

764
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: We live on the Illinois side of Saint Louis, and

765
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: so when we drive into Saint Louis, we take a

766
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 1: road and we and we drive by what's called Strip

767
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,880
Speaker 1: Strip Club Row all the time. One of the unfortunate

768
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: parts is one of the clubs is named the same

769
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: as my daughter, right, so you know, and so it

770
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:10,600
Speaker 1: was very noticeable when she was even.

771
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 3: Young, and it's like, well, what goes on there?

772
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:14,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

773
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,080
Speaker 3: What I have found to be at least partially helpful

774
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 3: is just pointing out how evil these places are.

775
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 1: One of the digital billboards that they put up on

776
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 1: one of these clubs says school.

777
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: Owns got you down.

778
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: We're hiring wow and just having a conversation with my

779
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: kids about Look, just I want you to think about

780
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 1: all the ways that makes that sign makes sense. Yeah, right,

781
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: These these young girls are in now financial trouble. They're

782
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: feeling this pressure and this establishment is trying to take

783
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 1: advantage of that to get them to take their clothes

784
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: off in front of men's they can earn money to

785
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:01,919
Speaker 1: pay off the school debt.

786
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 3: That's how it makes sense. It's not a laughable sign.

787
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: It's real, like, that's really happening to real people, and

788
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: it's despicable. And so we've tried as we you know,

789
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: it's hard to avoid anymore. Right, it's not just the Internet,

790
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: it's all this stuff that you drive by, that you

791
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: see on a daily basis. We've tried to sort of

792
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,319
Speaker 1: highlight this as Look, there is such a thing as

793
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: systemic sin. The world is not as it should be.

794
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 1: It's broken. Don't participate in the brokenness, right, Redeem the brokenness.

795
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:41,879
Speaker 1: Be different than the brokenness. Not about fixing the world,

796
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: but yeah, push back the darkness. That's similar language. Do

797
00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,440
Speaker 1: you see that as sort of a viable helpful strategy.

798
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: Just is it more about clear conversation and like openness

799
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: about what you're seeing as opposed to hiding it away.

800
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 2: I am a fan of parents shaping the gospel narrative

801
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 2: in their home and then also sins effect on the

802
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 2: world through beautiful everyday conversations like that it. You know,

803
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 2: there's one study I was reading about how sex talks

804
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 2: go the best and even how like parents parent the

805
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 2: best in a way that cultivates relationship with their kids

806
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 2: and the kids end up like following the rules the best.

807
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: Now there's authoritarian parenting that's top down, You're gonna do

808
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: what I say and here's the rules, and up not

809
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: in a great relationship. Kids might follow the rules in

810
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 2: your home, probably not out. Then there's permissive parenting. They

811
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 2: have good relationship back and forth, but when parents say

812
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 2: the rules, it's like very squishy, we have a hard

813
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 2: time like laying it down. Ideal parenting that promotes the

814
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 2: best relationship between parents and kids and kids end up

815
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 2: following the rules more is authoritative parenting. Those are parents

816
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 2: they have an open conversation. They don't just explain the rules,

817
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,879
Speaker 2: explain the why behind the rules, and kids can talk

818
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 2: about it. There's dialogue, and that even if the parent

819
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:18,600
Speaker 2: is like, Okay, well, this is still what we're going

820
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 2: to do. The fact that there's dialogue actually helps kids

821
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 2: to follow the rules for longer. It actually promotes parental

822
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 2: conversation and relationship better between parent and kids when they

823
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 2: understand the why and there's back and forth, even if

824
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 2: the rules are still the rules. So what I hear

825
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 2: you modeling, which is just I mean, that's deuteronomy right

826
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,400
Speaker 2: like in your going let's talk about this, and you

827
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 2: go wake up and go to bed. So I love that.

828
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 2: It's like you're like, here's the beauty, here's the aberration,

829
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 2: and what I would add and what I hear just

830
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 2: naturally and what you're saying is a non anxious presentation

831
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 2: of the beauty of God's world and the distortions we

832
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 2: see around us. Kids have mirrors, so they're gonna pick up.

833
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: If you're anxious, you're like, oh my gosh, we're going

834
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 2: through strip row. I'm having a panic attack, even if

835
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 2: you are. But for you to say the beauty, the why,

836
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 2: to have these conversations and to be a non anxious

837
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,839
Speaker 2: presence for your kids, you are modeling in so many ways, like, yeah,

838
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 2: I guess what we do live in a broken world,

839
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:24,600
Speaker 2: and this is how our family approaches it. We say

840
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: a strong noe, but here's why, beautiful.

841
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 3: Well, this is good. We're running close to times. So

842
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 3: I want to kind of ask you last question.

843
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: I ask a lot of my guests, and that is

844
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: just this And I think if you could tailor it

845
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 1: to kids, that would be fantastic. But sure, what do

846
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: you think the church needs to be doing today that

847
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: it's not doing to really help kids grow into disciples

848
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ.

849
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, if if one legacy from this work

850
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 2: that I'm doing is parents are preaching the true beautiful

851
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,920
Speaker 2: Gospel purpose of their lives to their kids and their home,

852
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 2: and that the purpose is not marriage. A little that's good,

853
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,600
Speaker 2: and that shows us the picture of eternal marriage. Marriage

854
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 2: and single it shows the picture of eternal marriage. Great. Yeah,

855
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 2: but if we actually make the first thing, the first

856
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: thing that are calling our purpose our mission is to

857
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 2: advance God's rule and reign until the Kingdom of God

858
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 2: is on earth as it is in heaven, to God's

859
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 2: glory and our good like works. How many how many

860
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: LGBTQ people have I talked to that when they discovered

861
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 2: their same sex attractions, they thought their life was over

862
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 2: because they thought their purpose was to get married and

863
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 2: make Christian babies and tithe and die. What if that

864
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 2: didn't happen anymore? Yeah, what if when they found it

865
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, great, this is my version of sexual brokenness.

866
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 2: I can surrender to Jesus. That'd be amazing. Yeah, can

867
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 2: begin to move the needle to really remember Jesus was

868
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: our true purpose. I think, I mean, we did we

869
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: do some beautiful work to advance God's kingdom and maybe

870
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:16,919
Speaker 2: prevent some some people saying goodbye to Jesus when really

871
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 2: they didn't need to.

872
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: That's a beautiful answer. I really appreciate that, and really

873
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: appreciated your book. I thought this was a fantastic book.

874
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: Again as somebody who's raised kids and sort of had

875
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: to fumble through for you know, my older kids sixteen

876
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: year old, but we have a four year old now

877
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:42,240
Speaker 1: and that we just adopted, and so these are matters

878
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,280
Speaker 1: that are actually pretty on my mind.

879
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 3: You know, how do we do this, how do we

880
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 3: do this well?

881
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 1: And what does this look like in an age that

882
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 1: has pretty significant changes and challenges. Right, it's not the

883
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: same world that my son who's twenty grew up in. Right,

884
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: it's a very different way world and so very much

885
00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 1: appreciated this book. I just encourage listeners, if you're interested

886
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,919
Speaker 1: in all of these topics, pick up Raising Wise Kids

887
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: in a Sexually Broken World by Laurie and Matt Kreeg.

888
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 1: It's fantastic, you'll love it. I'm going to put the

889
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: link in the show description. IVP gives us twenty percent

890
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: discount on books if you order it off the IVP website.

891
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 1: So and encourage you to go there. And then Laurie,

892
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:25,880
Speaker 1: is there other places where they can find your work?

893
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 1: More resources for this kind of thing? Do you want

894
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 1: to give another website?

895
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you go to Center Forfaith dot com, we've

896
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 2: got tons of resources, especially if you're a pastor or parent,

897
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 2: ministry leader of any kind. We have a lot of

898
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 2: free resources there for you, as well as videos, curriculums.

899
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:45,919
Speaker 2: It's a ton we're doing there, and I'm always trying

900
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,800
Speaker 2: to do like ninety seconds. If you only got ninety seconds,

901
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 2: just find me on Instagram trying to do little videos

902
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 2: to help us with a little bit of time.

903
00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 3: We have very good.

904
00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: Well, we'll put that link in the show notes as well.

905
00:51:56,719 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: So I just encourage you to take a look at

906
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,279
Speaker 1: everything that Lori and Matt have available and definitely check

907
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: out the book. Thanks so much, Laurier for being here.

908
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: I really appreciate having you on.

909
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 2: It was a real joy to be with you.

910
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, everybody, thanks for sticking with us, and

911
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: we will catch you on the next episode of Thinking

912
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: Christian Take Care. I just want to take a second

913
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 1: to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership

914
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go

915
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 1: to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith

916
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 1: centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer,

917
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: Bible study, parenting, and more.