WEBVTT - The Case for Capitalism 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:07.960 Life Audio. Should Christians be capitalists? 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:10.640 There are some general principles that we need to be 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:13.520 talking about. God owns it all. God has entrusted this 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.640 to us. God has given us a responsibility towards taking 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:18.360 care of the poor. I think those are things that 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:21.040 we can be talking about when we talk about money. 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:23.520 Imagine some Christians can go well, as long as I 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.280 support capitalism, that's creating a system. I've done my duty. 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:31.720 That is definitely not what you're arguing for here. We 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:36.960 still have a responsibility. What are the virtues of capitalism 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:42.920 better referred to as market economics? Should Christians be capitalists? Scott? 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:45.240 People have asked us to talk about this. You wrote 0:00:45.240 --> 0:00:49.160 a book called the Virtues of Capitalism, which makes your 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.239 position clear. This is part two. In part one we 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.480 did a critique of a book about why Christians should 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:58.480 be leftists. Now we want to kind of give a 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:04.759 positive moral case for why Christians should embrace market economics. 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:09.240 Now that says, I'm really curious, is socialism making a comeback? 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:11.640 And why do you think it is? 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.120 Well, I think it is making a comeback, but among 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:20.959 gen Z and the reason is because I think of 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:27.399 historical myopia. Fair enough, you know, I grew up in 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:29.760 the you know, I was born in the fifties and 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.800 grew up in the sixties and seventies at the height 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:37.000 of communism, and washed you just watched it fail. In fact, 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:42.080 I was nineteen seventy two, I was in Czechoslovakia, and 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:47.880 I watched what socialism had done in the country. He 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:49.720 was trying to be amazed at the number of people 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:56.080 who were standing around doing nothing and being paid virtually 0:01:56.120 --> 0:02:00.880 nothing for it. And the the number of people who 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:06.640 were under who were under employed, was just staggering, and 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:08.639 the you know, the lack of the lack of goods 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.519 on the shelves. I mean, it was it was clear 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.120 that the system was failing. 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.240 I saw that personally, by the way, going to Russia 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:19.000 thirteen times, starting in the early nineties, grown up in 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.440 the eighties when big movies were like Rocky fo Us 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.760 Versus Russia. Of course I saw it with my own eyes. 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.160 So it doesn't actually surprise me at all. I think 0:02:28.200 --> 0:02:32.120 the other piece is socialism just it sounds good, like 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:36.160 social good, collective community. So on the surface, it makes 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:39.240 a lot of promises that are appealing to people. But 0:02:39.360 --> 0:02:42.280 we'll get to why it doesn't work. What's the maybe 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:44.520 just lay out for us, what is the basic difference 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:49.000 for people to understand between socialism and market economics, again 0:02:49.040 --> 0:02:50.200 known as capitalism. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:52.080 Who owns the means of production? 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.520 Okay, that's a basic dividing life, basic dividing Okay. 0:02:57.000 --> 0:03:00.440 I mean even under socialism there is a limited right 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:03.000 of private property. I mean, even in the Soviet Union 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:07.639 there were laws against theft, you know, so that just 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.959 just because their laws against theft doesn't mean you've got 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:15.720 a market economy. But it's who is who is able 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:20.040 to own the means of producing the stuff that we have, 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:25.040 and it's a high emphasis on private, private ownership as 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:29.680 opposed to public ownership or state ownership of the things 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.280 that produce our stuff. That's the main difference. 0:03:33.480 --> 0:03:37.160 So there's other philosophical theological differences that tend to go 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:39.240 with it about the nature of the world, about the 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:42.040 nature of human beings, but at its core, we're talking 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:43.800 economic systems. 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:45.920 That's right now. I think we should be We should 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:50.680 be aware too that there's pure capitalism and pure socialism 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:56.760 exist on the extremes, and there's probably probably neither of 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.960 those exist in real life. I mean, I mean, even 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.920 you know, you know commentists China head markets, you know, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:06.440 and they've got you know, they have a dynamic market 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:09.680 based economy, and you know, and we have in the 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:13.720 US we have certain socialist tendencies, like we have Medicare, 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:17.800 social security, social security, you know, things like that. So 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:20.760 it exists on a bit of a continuum. So where 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.360 you are exactly on the continuum. So the US would 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:26.839 be here and maybe Scandinavia would be, you know, a 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:30.480 bit a different market, different set of marketing. 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:32.960 Yeah, that makes sense, that's fair. I'm going to quote 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.760 you directly that you wrote with your book, Austin Hill. 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:41.800 You said, quote, despite its flaws, failures, and imperfections, capitalism 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:47.960 remains the most moral choice among the world's economic systems. 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:49.919 Explain and defend. 0:04:50.400 --> 0:04:55.080 Well, there's three reasons, okay. One is it historically is 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:59.760 the best. It's the it's really the only proven me 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.640 means for lifting the poor out of part lifting large 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.200 numbers of the poor out of poverty. And it is 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:11.560 it is clearly the best means to obey the biblical 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:15.680 mandate to care for the least among us and Sean, 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:19.679 if throwing money at the poor around the world would 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:23.520 have worked, it would have done so right. We've been 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:27.159 thrown with doing that for the last fifty years and 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:31.719 it hasn't worked. What works are systems in place that 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:36.960 allow people to start small businesses, to take part in 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:41.920 entrepreneur in entrepreneurial activity that enables them to lift themselves 0:05:42.120 --> 0:05:45.520 out of poverty by pursuing their own self interest and 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.680 also in ways that meet the common goals. That's that's one. 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.200 The second reason is the best way to fulfill the 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:56.800 Genesis one creation mandate that God gave to human beings. 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.720 The first imperative that God gave to add if after 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.599 they were both created, was to be fruitful. And we 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:10.039 typically put be fruitful and multiply together, meaning procreation, but 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:14.680 they are separate. Multiply and fill the earth go together 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:21.200 for procreation. Be fruitful has economic and vocational overtones to it. 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:25.000 It means to be economically it means to be vocationally fruitful. 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:30.160 It means unlocking what God has embedded into his creation 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:33.520 and bringing it to a place where it can benefit 0:06:34.120 --> 0:06:38.000 the common good. So in market systems, I think are 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:41.680 the best way to do that because they provide incentives 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:48.000 for innovation and initiative. Okay, third, maybe there'll be a 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:52.159 fourth third, I think it best accords with the freedom 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.320 that God has created human beings with by virtue being 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:59.600 made in his image. Economic freedom is a sense of 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.360 religious freedom, I think is the most basic freedom, But 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.120 economic freedom is right behind it, and lots of other 0:07:06.120 --> 0:07:09.880 freedoms go with that. And the freedom to order your 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.840 economic life according to your own self interest. And the 0:07:13.840 --> 0:07:17.440 Bible never condemns self interest, it only mandates that it 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:20.640 be balanced by needs the concern for the interest of others. 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:26.280 So and then a fourth reason is that market based 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:30.360 systems both require and nurture a certain set of virtues 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:37.280 that are essential. They require creativity, initiative, innovation, what we 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:40.840 call entrepreneurial traits. But they also require perseverance, They require 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.920 a work ethic, you know, they require punctuality, they require 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:49.440 personal responsibility, they require good stewardship. All of these virtues, 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.200 they both require them and they nurture them at the 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:55.680 same time. Think about who would you rather hire? Somebody 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.480 characterized by the fruit of the spirit or by the 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:03.200 deeds of the flesh. That's not even close. And so 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.240 I think, I think, you know, we get we get 0:08:05.280 --> 0:08:07.520 a lot of we get a lot of comment about outliers, 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.960 But the vast majority of people who succeed in the 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:15.840 marketplace do so because it's assumed that there's at least 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:20.640 a modicum of virtue that's necessary to be successful. 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:22.800 Which is why, and this is a separate point. Sometimes 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:27.480 capitalism is not the best system for a nation where 0:08:27.600 --> 0:08:32.439 it's at just morally experientially. You want to get nations there, 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.480 but it's not a cookie cutter for every nation of 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.840 all time. That doesn't necessarily fall through the point. 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:41.200 That markets have to be planted in fertile ground. 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:43.720 There you go, well said, Okay, Now, in some ways 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.280 you might have answered this question, but another quote that 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:48.360 you and your co author said is that not only 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:53.520 do believe that it market economy economics is the preferred choice, 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:57.320 we also believe that capitalism is the most consistent with 0:08:57.480 --> 0:08:59.920 a with a Judeo Christian view of the world. Now 0:08:59.920 --> 0:09:01.840 you might have answered this because your second one was 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:06.679 about be fruitful economically, grow about certain virtues, about caring 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:10.040 for our neighbor, but any other specific reason why you'd 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:11.640 argued it's the most biblical. 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:13.719 I would say here that the most biblical and the 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:15.200 most moral or interchangeable. 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:17.160 Okay, okay, So that's fair. 0:09:17.480 --> 0:09:19.840 I think I've answered that, unless unless you got something 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:20.679 you want to add to that. 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.679 No, that's that's fair. I think that's good. Okay, all right, 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.160 So why does capitalism work? And there's a little bit 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:30.839 of irony there because we're talking about work and what 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.840 work is. In other words, why has it driven so 0:09:33.920 --> 0:09:37.040 many people out of poverty? And again, to quote the book, 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:42.200 he said, it's transformed entire regions of the world and 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:46.240 as a result, generated such robust economies. So from kind 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:49.839 of a worldview perspective, why does it do the things 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:50.640 that you're describing? 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:57.400 Well, because sean part of human nature, and part part 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.680 of it, I think, is because we're made in God's image, 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:01.760 but also I think part of it because we're falling. 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:08.480 Also is that human beings respond to incentives. And if 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:13.480 people don't have incentives to work, to take risks, to 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:17.319 go the extra mile, they're probably not going to do it. 0:10:18.440 --> 0:10:22.040 Most people are not motivated for the long term. Now 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:25.160 they'll do it in the short run maybe, but they're 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:31.000 not they're not motivated to be volunteers for the long haul. 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:33.559 I mean, both of us, we love what we're doing, 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:36.720 and we do it because of its intrinsic value. But 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:39.280 I suspect if we weren't getting paychecks for it, we'd 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:44.160 be doing something else. Right, Maybe I shouldn't speak to you. 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:48.520 Maybe you're just more altruistic than I. 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:49.559 I'll just let that one sit. 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:53.880 But let me for our viewers, you be well served. 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.560 I think there's a there's a short video that's been done. 0:10:56.600 --> 0:11:00.360 It's gotten it should have. If it hadn't gone viral, 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.480 it should have. The Swedish demographer Hans Rostling did a 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:08.320 piece about four minutes called two hundred Years two hundred Countries, 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:14.600 and it charts how over two hundred years most of 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:20.600 the world emerged from two dollars a day poverty into 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:26.320 thriving middle and upper classes. It's a fascinating look at it. 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:27.920 Yeah, he does it like. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:32.480 He does it in like three or four minutes. And 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:38.440 everywhere markets have been tried, they've succeeded because they wed 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.959 the pursuit of self interest with the common good. 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.280 So you reject the idea, and I agree with you 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:46.640 by the way that we read in the book why 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:49.720 Christians should be Leftists, that we're kind of wired to 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:52.160 just feel good. We want to work, we want to 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.920 contribute to the hall like that's often framed as being 0:11:56.080 --> 0:12:00.160 sufficient for a work ethic, and you just say that's 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:00.959 not sufficient. 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.559 That's well, that's that's just not that's not the reality 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:05.680 of living in a fallen world. Now, I think part 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:08.240 of it. You know, we're not you know, we're not 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:13.319 what economists call homo economicus. We're not just driven by 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:18.400 our economic needs and our self interest, but we're driven 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.720 by by more things than that. But but I don't 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.800 want to minimize how important it is. And the Bible 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:29.360 mandates Sean that we pursue our self interest sufficient to 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:32.760 care for ourselves and our dependents. I think that's what 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:34.520 the Bible means when it says if you don't work, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.920 you don't eat, it means you're not If you don't work, 0:12:38.000 --> 0:12:41.600 you're not entitled to the community's goods that are set 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:44.760 aside as a safety net. And what Paul says, the 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.960 person who doesn't provide for his family the strongest possible 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:52.400 language in the script calls them an anathema, let them 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:57.120 be a curse. That's that's really a significant statement from 0:12:57.120 --> 0:13:00.800 the apostle Paul about the importance and strong of pursuing 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:06.079 your self interest sufficient to care for yourself and pure dependence. 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:10.600 So that's the reason this is is what Adam Smith 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:14.000 was onto. You said, you don't you don't get your 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:17.400 meat or your milk from the butcher and the milkman, 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:19.160 and you don't get your bread from the baker out 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.680 of their concern for altruism. You get it because of 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:25.800 their concern for their self interest, which also meets the 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:26.400 common good. 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.960 And by the way, the Bible says love others as 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:35.800 no excuse me. The Bible says to love others as 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:40.439 you love yourself. The assumption is we naturally love ourselves, 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:42.920 and that's good. We're supposed to. In fact, we can 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.520 only really love other people and care for their interests 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.760 if we first care for our own. It's not a 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:51.440 bad thing. That's how God has made the world. So 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:57.760 you've talked about why capitalism works. Why does socialism always fail? 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.760 What is it on a worldview level that, no matter 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:03.760 how good intention we are, doesn't work. 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:07.720 Well economic well, For one, its it misunderstands what a 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:13.160 human being is. But on economic reasons, the reason socialism 0:14:13.200 --> 0:14:16.040 fails is because, as Mark with Thatcher put it, you 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:19.120 eventually run out of other people's money, and I think 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:24.680 she was right about that. I agree, because socialist systems 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:31.680 don't create wealth, they redistribute it and people there's no 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:36.760 incentive for people to innovate, to take risks, to work hard, 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:43.960 to put themselves out for their companies. And if your 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:48.840 income is capped, basically there's Once you reach the cap, 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:51.400 you lose incentives to work hard. This is why France 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:54.960 several years ago raised their tax rate to seventy five 0:14:55.000 --> 0:15:00.120 percent and people stopped, you know, money fled the country 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:06.560 and entrepreneurs stopped innovating. Because I say, what's the point 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:11.360 they're not you know, yes we have we have altruism, 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:14.560 but out in a fallen world, altruism is not enough 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.240 to carry us in the long term. And that's the 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:22.680 genius that Adam Smith was onto, is that pursuing your 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:27.040 self interest in many cases, not all of them, but 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.160 can provide for the common good. 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:31.240 And you guys are not shy of talking about some 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.920 of the weaknesses and flaws. You're not saying this creates 0:15:33.960 --> 0:15:37.560 a utopian society. So you're not saying it's it's perfect. 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:38.200 You're saying it. 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.240 And the other reason socialism has failed is what you 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:46.960 mentioned about utopia, because Utopia's almost always require totalitarianism to 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.680 pull them off. And the reason for that is because 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:53.640 people don't like to give up what they've achieved. They 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.400 don't like to give up the freedom to pursue their 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:58.840 own self interest and to better themselves. 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:02.880 Economically self interest. It's themselves and their family and their 0:16:03.000 --> 0:16:06.960 church and their community, rather than some amorphous government that's 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:11.480 out there. It just doesn't work right, and the government 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:15.040 had there's no accountability. If the government spends money, it 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.160 doesn't affect them. It's somebody else's money. But when I 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.520 spend my own money, I see it subtracted from my 0:16:21.760 --> 0:16:24.920 bank account. It's very personal, so I'm as a whole 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.040 going to spend it differently. That's that's the disconnect that 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:28.800 often exists. 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.720 I think there's a dynamism to market economies that doesn't 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.200 exist in socialism. 0:16:35.440 --> 0:16:37.600 So there's a number of objections and you deal I 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:39.720 think I think you deal with each one of these. 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.560 But these are ones that I've heard and would love 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:46.320 your take on it. Scott. One is that capitalism is Darwinian. 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:51.479 It's kind of dog eat dog. It's competitive structure encourages disunity, 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:57.120 non cooperation. If you don't create this product, you fail, 0:16:57.160 --> 0:16:59.320 so I've got to beat you to get to the top. 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:04.600 I'd say not it's competitive, But to say it's non 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:09.480 cooperative is clearly not true, because nobody creates their own 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:15.960 products by themselves. That didn't happen. As we mentioned, I 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:21.160 think in part one, bringing a product to market requires 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:28.680 incredible cooperation among competing businesses and businesses that are pursuing 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.480 their self interest. In fact, you know, when I hit 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:36.280 send on an order for a new computer, hundreds of 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:41.200 people spring into action, going to work to fulfill my order, 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.920 and if they don't do that, then I don't get 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:51.160 my computer. Yeah. Is it competitive, Yes, competitions. The competition 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:55.640 is a good thing because competition enables us to get 0:17:55.760 --> 0:17:58.639 make sure that the best products are the ones that 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:03.200 received and the ones that have the most benefit are 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:06.080 the ones that succeed. Now to be to be fair, 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.480 you know, the more markets reflect the virtues and values 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.560 of the participants in it, which would suggest that there 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:20.840 are times when to get to get to another major objection, 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:23.120 that it is going to all be based on. 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:26.879 Greed exactly actually was my next one. So tell them 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:29.359 respond to the claim that capitalism is about greed. 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:31.679 Well, for one, greeds of human a vice, not an 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:34.320 economic one. To say there are no greedy people among 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:40.080 socialists is absurd. They said other ways too, you know, 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:45.440 to satisfy their greed that we're not. That's why they 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.840 That's why most socialist countries they have thriving black markets, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:55.040 which are i'd say, much more pure market exchanges than 0:18:55.080 --> 0:19:01.320 what exists above ground. And I would say profit and 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.560 greed are not the same thing. Profit just means that 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:08.360 you're using your resources efficiently. And I think I think 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:11.640 what I would say is an honest profit actually means 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:16.280 that you are fulfilling the dominion mandate faithfully. So an 0:19:16.320 --> 0:19:18.840 honest by an honest profit, I mean that's not one 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.959 that's not fraudulent or producing a product that's inherently evil. 0:19:22.720 --> 0:19:26.000 Like pornographers are not fulfilling the dominion mandate even though 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.000 they're very profitable. That's a dishonest distinction. 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:35.240 So you're right, like greed is in every economic system, 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:37.439 because human it's a matter of the heart that we 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.919 carry with us. Is there something you would say to 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:44.439 Christians though, like we have to be especially careful and 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:48.639 cautious in a culture where I can create a business 0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.640 for my own good I can buy products that I'm 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:55.800 promised will fill my heart. That there's at least more 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.160 temptation to greed here in a capitalist society, or it's 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:01.720 just a different kind. 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:08.879 I think it's it's it's because market systems have the 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:13.639 capacity to create wealth like no others, there probably is 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:19.040 the temptation toward greed and toward over consumption mm hmm. 0:20:19.760 --> 0:20:24.120 But with that there's also it also creates the resources 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:27.280 for charity and for a safety net like we've never 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.920 seen before. And so the you know it would would 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:37.399 Would I rather be tempted by greed than by grinding poverty? 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:41.159 Sure I will. I will deal with my greed. Uh. 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:44.320 And I think the reason that the Bible has as 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:49.640 as a solution for greed, it's called giving. Now, God 0:20:49.680 --> 0:20:53.040 commands giving, not because he needs it. The kingdom will 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:55.760 get along just fine if we hoard all our wealth. 0:20:56.560 --> 0:21:00.000 Our heart is what needs our giving, because that's that's 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.040 what breaks the power of money in our lives. 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.880 That's fair. So one of the other critiques that comes 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.440 up often is that in the capitalist system, the rich 0:21:08.520 --> 0:21:12.520 get richer at the expense of the poor. 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:14.960 Now, you got to be careful how you say that 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:19.640 because that's saying it clearly, okay. When they leave out 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:22.120 the at the expense of the poor and just say 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:24.439 the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poor. 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.879 Sometimes that at the expense of is implied but not 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.720 stated clearly, and that you're right to state it clearly, okay. 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:37.520 And I think that for most of the history of 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:43.800 civilization that was true and as a result, everybody was 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:48.160 equally and they were equal, but they were equally poor, wretched, 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:53.400 and miserable. And once markets were introduced, then you could 0:21:53.480 --> 0:21:57.200 do well financially and do good at the same time, 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:01.439 which was not true in the ancient world to market 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:06.040 systems being introduced. So I would say yes, just because 0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:09.639 just because the richer getting richer doesn't necessarily mean that 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:14.240 the poor are getting poor, because there is a sense 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.760 when a profit is made and when economies grow, the 0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:21.520 size of the pie actually gets bigger. And just because 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:24.760 the rich are getting richer, you know, factory wages can 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.240 be up at the same time. Now there are things 0:22:28.280 --> 0:22:33.080 that there are things about market systems where you do 0:22:33.240 --> 0:22:40.680 have dislocations sometimes and so sometimes there are temporary, temporary setbacks. 0:22:41.080 --> 0:22:44.359 It doesn't say that there is consistent economic growth all 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.560 the time. But it does say that the general pattern 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:51.080 has been that the size of the pie generally gets 0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:52.800 bigger over time. 0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.520 That's really the key. That it's not a finite If 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:01.240 I get that means you lose. Wealth can actually be 0:23:01.480 --> 0:23:04.800 created and generated, so the pie gets bigger. 0:23:05.720 --> 0:23:07.560 Wealth is being created every day. 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:11.000 Hence not at the expense of the pores. Why you 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:14.760 focused on that point. That's correct, Okay, all right, So 0:23:14.920 --> 0:23:17.200 you talked about this a little earlier, that capitalism leads 0:23:17.240 --> 0:23:20.040 to over consumption and materialism. I think I think you've 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:21.240 addressed that one. 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:24.640 So, yeah, materialism is a is a human vice. 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.920 An you might say in a different economic system, there 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:33.640 might be other vices that are emphasized more, but it's 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:37.320 not like there's just no vices in other economic systems expressed. 0:23:39.119 --> 0:23:41.520 When when you are stuck in your economic strategy, the 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:45.879 vice is envy in coven dioustance is that's all you 0:23:45.920 --> 0:23:48.000 can do is look up with envy at the person 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:52.639 at the social media understanding above you and I. In 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:57.680 my view, envy and covetousness are far worse in socialistic 0:23:57.720 --> 0:23:59.480 systems than they are in market systems. 0:24:00.600 --> 0:24:04.960 That's I'd love to explore that, but that point is fascinating. 0:24:05.000 --> 0:24:07.840 I'm let that sit with folks. So the last objection 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:13.400 that is often raised is that capitalism leads to economic busts. 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:16.239 So in our last episode, one of the I think 0:24:16.240 --> 0:24:18.480 there were seven or eight factors that led the author 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:22.199 of the book Why Christians Should Be Leftists to abandon 0:24:22.400 --> 0:24:26.119 kind of a capitalist system, and one was the economic 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:29.000 crash of two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine. 0:24:29.800 --> 0:24:32.520 So you think about like the dot com bust of 0:24:32.600 --> 0:24:35.879 the early two thousand's mark a crash of two thousand 0:24:35.880 --> 0:24:38.840 and eight. I'm sure another one is coming in due time. 0:24:38.960 --> 0:24:41.440 Some people are talking about an AI crash. Maybe that 0:24:41.560 --> 0:24:46.320 could happen in the future. Doesn't capitalism lead to economic 0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:52.199 busts like that? It can, okay, but I. 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:57.920 Would say by contrast, socialism is a constant economic bust, 0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:01.080 not just at one time. 0:25:01.400 --> 0:25:03.000 I didn't expect that answer. 0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:08.920 You know the doc you know the part of the 0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:12.120 reason for these booms and bugs, there's that's a whole 0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:15.359