1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Life Audio. Should Christians be capitalists? 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:10,640 Speaker 2: There are some general principles that we need to be 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 2: talking about. God owns it all. God has entrusted this 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 2: to us. God has given us a responsibility towards taking 5 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: care of the poor. I think those are things that 6 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: we can be talking about when we talk about money. 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: Imagine some Christians can go well, as long as I 8 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: support capitalism, that's creating a system. I've done my duty. 9 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 1: That is definitely not what you're arguing for here. We 10 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: still have a responsibility. What are the virtues of capitalism 11 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: better referred to as market economics? Should Christians be capitalists? Scott? 12 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,240 Speaker 1: People have asked us to talk about this. You wrote 13 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: a book called the Virtues of Capitalism, which makes your 14 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: position clear. This is part two. In part one we 15 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: did a critique of a book about why Christians should 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: be leftists. Now we want to kind of give a 17 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: positive moral case for why Christians should embrace market economics. 18 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: Now that says, I'm really curious, is socialism making a comeback? 19 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: And why do you think it is? 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 2: Well, I think it is making a comeback, but among 21 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 2: gen Z and the reason is because I think of 22 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 2: historical myopia. Fair enough, you know, I grew up in 23 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: the you know, I was born in the fifties and 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: grew up in the sixties and seventies at the height 25 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 2: of communism, and washed you just watched it fail. In fact, 26 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: I was nineteen seventy two, I was in Czechoslovakia, and 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 2: I watched what socialism had done in the country. He 28 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: was trying to be amazed at the number of people 29 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 2: who were standing around doing nothing and being paid virtually 30 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: nothing for it. And the the number of people who 31 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 2: were under who were under employed, was just staggering, and 32 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 2: the you know, the lack of the lack of goods 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,519 Speaker 2: on the shelves. I mean, it was it was clear 34 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 2: that the system was failing. 35 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: I saw that personally, by the way, going to Russia 36 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: thirteen times, starting in the early nineties, grown up in 37 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: the eighties when big movies were like Rocky fo Us 38 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: Versus Russia. Of course I saw it with my own eyes. 39 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: So it doesn't actually surprise me at all. I think 40 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:32,120 Speaker 1: the other piece is socialism just it sounds good, like 41 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: social good, collective community. So on the surface, it makes 42 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: a lot of promises that are appealing to people. But 43 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: we'll get to why it doesn't work. What's the maybe 44 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 1: just lay out for us, what is the basic difference 45 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: for people to understand between socialism and market economics, again 46 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: known as capitalism. 47 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 2: Who owns the means of production? 48 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: Okay, that's a basic dividing life, basic dividing Okay. 49 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: I mean even under socialism there is a limited right 50 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: of private property. I mean, even in the Soviet Union 51 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 2: there were laws against theft, you know, so that just 52 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 2: just because their laws against theft doesn't mean you've got 53 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 2: a market economy. But it's who is who is able 54 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: to own the means of producing the stuff that we have, 55 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 2: and it's a high emphasis on private, private ownership as 56 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 2: opposed to public ownership or state ownership of the things 57 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 2: that produce our stuff. That's the main difference. 58 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: So there's other philosophical theological differences that tend to go 59 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: with it about the nature of the world, about the 60 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: nature of human beings, but at its core, we're talking 61 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: economic systems. 62 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: That's right now. I think we should be We should 63 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 2: be aware too that there's pure capitalism and pure socialism 64 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 2: exist on the extremes, and there's probably probably neither of 65 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 2: those exist in real life. I mean, I mean, even 66 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: you know, you know commentists China head markets, you know, 67 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 2: and they've got you know, they have a dynamic market 68 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: based economy, and you know, and we have in the 69 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: US we have certain socialist tendencies, like we have Medicare, 70 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 2: social security, social security, you know, things like that. So 71 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 2: it exists on a bit of a continuum. So where 72 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 2: you are exactly on the continuum. So the US would 73 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 2: be here and maybe Scandinavia would be, you know, a 74 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 2: bit a different market, different set of marketing. 75 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes sense, that's fair. I'm going to quote 76 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: you directly that you wrote with your book, Austin Hill. 77 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: You said, quote, despite its flaws, failures, and imperfections, capitalism 78 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: remains the most moral choice among the world's economic systems. 79 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: Explain and defend. 80 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 2: Well, there's three reasons, okay. One is it historically is 81 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: the best. It's the it's really the only proven me 82 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,640 Speaker 2: means for lifting the poor out of part lifting large 83 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: numbers of the poor out of poverty. And it is 84 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 2: it is clearly the best means to obey the biblical 85 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: mandate to care for the least among us and Sean, 86 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,679 Speaker 2: if throwing money at the poor around the world would 87 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 2: have worked, it would have done so right. We've been 88 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 2: thrown with doing that for the last fifty years and 89 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 2: it hasn't worked. What works are systems in place that 90 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: allow people to start small businesses, to take part in 91 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 2: entrepreneur in entrepreneurial activity that enables them to lift themselves 92 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: out of poverty by pursuing their own self interest and 93 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 2: also in ways that meet the common goals. That's that's one. 94 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: The second reason is the best way to fulfill the 95 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: Genesis one creation mandate that God gave to human beings. 96 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,720 Speaker 2: The first imperative that God gave to add if after 97 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 2: they were both created, was to be fruitful. And we 98 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 2: typically put be fruitful and multiply together, meaning procreation, but 99 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: they are separate. Multiply and fill the earth go together 100 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: for procreation. Be fruitful has economic and vocational overtones to it. 101 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: It means to be economically it means to be vocationally fruitful. 102 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:30,160 Speaker 2: It means unlocking what God has embedded into his creation 103 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: and bringing it to a place where it can benefit 104 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 2: the common good. So in market systems, I think are 105 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 2: the best way to do that because they provide incentives 106 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 2: for innovation and initiative. Okay, third, maybe there'll be a 107 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 2: fourth third, I think it best accords with the freedom 108 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: that God has created human beings with by virtue being 109 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 2: made in his image. Economic freedom is a sense of 110 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: religious freedom, I think is the most basic freedom, But 111 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 2: economic freedom is right behind it, and lots of other 112 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: freedoms go with that. And the freedom to order your 113 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: economic life according to your own self interest. And the 114 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: Bible never condemns self interest, it only mandates that it 115 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 2: be balanced by needs the concern for the interest of others. 116 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 2: So and then a fourth reason is that market based 117 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 2: systems both require and nurture a certain set of virtues 118 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 2: that are essential. They require creativity, initiative, innovation, what we 119 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 2: call entrepreneurial traits. But they also require perseverance, They require 120 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 2: a work ethic, you know, they require punctuality, they require 121 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 2: personal responsibility, they require good stewardship. All of these virtues, 122 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: they both require them and they nurture them at the 123 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 2: same time. Think about who would you rather hire? Somebody 124 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: characterized by the fruit of the spirit or by the 125 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: deeds of the flesh. That's not even close. And so 126 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 2: I think, I think, you know, we get we get 127 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: a lot of we get a lot of comment about outliers, 128 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: But the vast majority of people who succeed in the 129 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,840 Speaker 2: marketplace do so because it's assumed that there's at least 130 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 2: a modicum of virtue that's necessary to be successful. 131 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: Which is why, and this is a separate point. Sometimes 132 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:27,480 Speaker 1: capitalism is not the best system for a nation where 133 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:32,439 Speaker 1: it's at just morally experientially. You want to get nations there, 134 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: but it's not a cookie cutter for every nation of 135 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: all time. That doesn't necessarily fall through the point. 136 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 2: That markets have to be planted in fertile ground. 137 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: There you go, well said, Okay, Now, in some ways 138 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 1: you might have answered this question, but another quote that 139 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: you and your co author said is that not only 140 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 1: do believe that it market economy economics is the preferred choice, 141 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: we also believe that capitalism is the most consistent with 142 00:08:57,480 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: a with a Judeo Christian view of the world. Now 143 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: you might have answered this because your second one was 144 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: about be fruitful economically, grow about certain virtues, about caring 145 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: for our neighbor, but any other specific reason why you'd 146 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:11,640 Speaker 1: argued it's the most biblical. 147 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:13,719 Speaker 2: I would say here that the most biblical and the 148 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 2: most moral or interchangeable. 149 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, So that's fair. 150 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:19,840 Speaker 2: I think I've answered that, unless unless you got something 151 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 2: you want to add to that. 152 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: No, that's that's fair. I think that's good. Okay, all right, 153 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: So why does capitalism work? And there's a little bit 154 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,839 Speaker 1: of irony there because we're talking about work and what 155 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 1: work is. In other words, why has it driven so 156 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: many people out of poverty? And again, to quote the book, 157 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: he said, it's transformed entire regions of the world and 158 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: as a result, generated such robust economies. So from kind 159 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 1: of a worldview perspective, why does it do the things 160 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: that you're describing? 161 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 2: Well, because sean part of human nature, and part part 162 00:09:57,400 --> 00:09:59,680 Speaker 2: of it, I think, is because we're made in God's image, 163 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: but also I think part of it because we're falling. 164 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 2: Also is that human beings respond to incentives. And if 165 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: people don't have incentives to work, to take risks, to 166 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,319 Speaker 2: go the extra mile, they're probably not going to do it. 167 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: Most people are not motivated for the long term. Now 168 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: they'll do it in the short run maybe, but they're 169 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 2: not they're not motivated to be volunteers for the long haul. 170 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,559 Speaker 2: I mean, both of us, we love what we're doing, 171 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: and we do it because of its intrinsic value. But 172 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,280 Speaker 2: I suspect if we weren't getting paychecks for it, we'd 173 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 2: be doing something else. Right, Maybe I shouldn't speak to you. 174 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 2: Maybe you're just more altruistic than I. 175 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: I'll just let that one sit. 176 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 2: But let me for our viewers, you be well served. 177 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: I think there's a there's a short video that's been done. 178 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: It's gotten it should have. If it hadn't gone viral, 179 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: it should have. The Swedish demographer Hans Rostling did a 180 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:08,320 Speaker 2: piece about four minutes called two hundred Years two hundred Countries, 181 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: and it charts how over two hundred years most of 182 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 2: the world emerged from two dollars a day poverty into 183 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 2: thriving middle and upper classes. It's a fascinating look at it. 184 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, he does it like. 185 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: He does it in like three or four minutes. And 186 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 2: everywhere markets have been tried, they've succeeded because they wed 187 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 2: the pursuit of self interest with the common good. 188 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: So you reject the idea, and I agree with you 189 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: by the way that we read in the book why 190 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: Christians should be Leftists, that we're kind of wired to 191 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: just feel good. We want to work, we want to 192 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: contribute to the hall like that's often framed as being 193 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: sufficient for a work ethic, and you just say that's 194 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 1: not sufficient. 195 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 2: That's well, that's that's just not that's not the reality 196 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 2: of living in a fallen world. Now, I think part 197 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 2: of it. You know, we're not you know, we're not 198 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 2: what economists call homo economicus. We're not just driven by 199 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 2: our economic needs and our self interest, but we're driven 200 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 2: by by more things than that. But but I don't 201 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 2: want to minimize how important it is. And the Bible 202 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: mandates Sean that we pursue our self interest sufficient to 203 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: care for ourselves and our dependents. I think that's what 204 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 2: the Bible means when it says if you don't work, 205 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: you don't eat, it means you're not If you don't work, 206 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 2: you're not entitled to the community's goods that are set 207 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: aside as a safety net. And what Paul says, the 208 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: person who doesn't provide for his family the strongest possible 209 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: language in the script calls them an anathema, let them 210 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 2: be a curse. That's that's really a significant statement from 211 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 2: the apostle Paul about the importance and strong of pursuing 212 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 2: your self interest sufficient to care for yourself and pure dependence. 213 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 2: So that's the reason this is is what Adam Smith 214 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 2: was onto. You said, you don't you don't get your 215 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 2: meat or your milk from the butcher and the milkman, 216 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: and you don't get your bread from the baker out 217 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 2: of their concern for altruism. You get it because of 218 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 2: their concern for their self interest, which also meets the 219 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: common good. 220 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: And by the way, the Bible says love others as 221 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: no excuse me. The Bible says to love others as 222 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: you love yourself. The assumption is we naturally love ourselves, 223 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: and that's good. We're supposed to. In fact, we can 224 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: only really love other people and care for their interests 225 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: if we first care for our own. It's not a 226 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: bad thing. That's how God has made the world. So 227 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: you've talked about why capitalism works. Why does socialism always fail? 228 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: What is it on a worldview level that, no matter 229 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: how good intention we are, doesn't work. 230 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 2: Well economic well, For one, its it misunderstands what a 231 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: human being is. But on economic reasons, the reason socialism 232 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: fails is because, as Mark with Thatcher put it, you 233 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: eventually run out of other people's money, and I think 234 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: she was right about that. I agree, because socialist systems 235 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: don't create wealth, they redistribute it and people there's no 236 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 2: incentive for people to innovate, to take risks, to work hard, 237 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 2: to put themselves out for their companies. And if your 238 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 2: income is capped, basically there's Once you reach the cap, 239 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: you lose incentives to work hard. This is why France 240 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 2: several years ago raised their tax rate to seventy five 241 00:14:55,000 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: percent and people stopped, you know, money fled the country 242 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 2: and entrepreneurs stopped innovating. Because I say, what's the point 243 00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: they're not you know, yes we have we have altruism, 244 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 2: but out in a fallen world, altruism is not enough 245 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 2: to carry us in the long term. And that's the 246 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 2: genius that Adam Smith was onto, is that pursuing your 247 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: self interest in many cases, not all of them, but 248 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 2: can provide for the common good. 249 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: And you guys are not shy of talking about some 250 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: of the weaknesses and flaws. You're not saying this creates 251 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: a utopian society. So you're not saying it's it's perfect. 252 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: You're saying it. 253 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: And the other reason socialism has failed is what you 254 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 2: mentioned about utopia, because Utopia's almost always require totalitarianism to 255 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: pull them off. And the reason for that is because 256 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 2: people don't like to give up what they've achieved. They 257 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: don't like to give up the freedom to pursue their 258 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 2: own self interest and to better themselves. 259 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: Economically self interest. It's themselves and their family and their 260 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,960 Speaker 1: church and their community, rather than some amorphous government that's 261 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: out there. It just doesn't work right, and the government 262 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: had there's no accountability. If the government spends money, it 263 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: doesn't affect them. It's somebody else's money. But when I 264 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 1: spend my own money, I see it subtracted from my 265 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: bank account. It's very personal, so I'm as a whole 266 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: going to spend it differently. That's that's the disconnect that 267 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: often exists. 268 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: I think there's a dynamism to market economies that doesn't 269 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: exist in socialism. 270 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: So there's a number of objections and you deal I 271 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: think I think you deal with each one of these. 272 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: But these are ones that I've heard and would love 273 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: your take on it. Scott. One is that capitalism is Darwinian. 274 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,479 Speaker 1: It's kind of dog eat dog. It's competitive structure encourages disunity, 275 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: non cooperation. If you don't create this product, you fail, 276 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: so I've got to beat you to get to the top. 277 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 2: I'd say not it's competitive, But to say it's non 278 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 2: cooperative is clearly not true, because nobody creates their own 279 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 2: products by themselves. That didn't happen. As we mentioned, I 280 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:21,160 Speaker 2: think in part one, bringing a product to market requires 281 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:28,680 Speaker 2: incredible cooperation among competing businesses and businesses that are pursuing 282 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 2: their self interest. In fact, you know, when I hit 283 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: send on an order for a new computer, hundreds of 284 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 2: people spring into action, going to work to fulfill my order, 285 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 2: and if they don't do that, then I don't get 286 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 2: my computer. Yeah. Is it competitive, Yes, competitions. The competition 287 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 2: is a good thing because competition enables us to get 288 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 2: make sure that the best products are the ones that 289 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 2: received and the ones that have the most benefit are 290 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 2: the ones that succeed. Now to be to be fair, 291 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: you know, the more markets reflect the virtues and values 292 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 2: of the participants in it, which would suggest that there 293 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 2: are times when to get to get to another major objection, 294 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 2: that it is going to all be based on. 295 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: Greed exactly actually was my next one. So tell them 296 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 1: respond to the claim that capitalism is about greed. 297 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,679 Speaker 2: Well, for one, greeds of human a vice, not an 298 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 2: economic one. To say there are no greedy people among 299 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: socialists is absurd. They said other ways too, you know, 300 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 2: to satisfy their greed that we're not. That's why they 301 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 2: That's why most socialist countries they have thriving black markets, 302 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: which are i'd say, much more pure market exchanges than 303 00:18:55,080 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 2: what exists above ground. And I would say profit and 304 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 2: greed are not the same thing. Profit just means that 305 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 2: you're using your resources efficiently. And I think I think 306 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 2: what I would say is an honest profit actually means 307 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 2: that you are fulfilling the dominion mandate faithfully. So an 308 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: honest by an honest profit, I mean that's not one 309 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 2: that's not fraudulent or producing a product that's inherently evil. 310 00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 2: Like pornographers are not fulfilling the dominion mandate even though 311 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: they're very profitable. That's a dishonest distinction. 312 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:35,240 Speaker 1: So you're right, like greed is in every economic system, 313 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: because human it's a matter of the heart that we 314 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 1: carry with us. Is there something you would say to 315 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 1: Christians though, like we have to be especially careful and 316 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:48,639 Speaker 1: cautious in a culture where I can create a business 317 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:51,640 Speaker 1: for my own good I can buy products that I'm 318 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 1: promised will fill my heart. That there's at least more 319 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,160 Speaker 1: temptation to greed here in a capitalist society, or it's 320 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: just a different kind. 321 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 2: I think it's it's it's because market systems have the 322 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 2: capacity to create wealth like no others, there probably is 323 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: the temptation toward greed and toward over consumption mm hmm. 324 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 2: But with that there's also it also creates the resources 325 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: for charity and for a safety net like we've never 326 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 2: seen before. And so the you know it would would 327 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 2: Would I rather be tempted by greed than by grinding poverty? 328 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 2: Sure I will. I will deal with my greed. Uh. 329 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 2: And I think the reason that the Bible has as 330 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,640 Speaker 2: as a solution for greed, it's called giving. Now, God 331 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 2: commands giving, not because he needs it. The kingdom will 332 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 2: get along just fine if we hoard all our wealth. 333 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 2: Our heart is what needs our giving, because that's that's 334 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: what breaks the power of money in our lives. 335 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: That's fair. So one of the other critiques that comes 336 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: up often is that in the capitalist system, the rich 337 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: get richer at the expense of the poor. 338 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 2: Now, you got to be careful how you say that 339 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 2: because that's saying it clearly, okay. When they leave out 340 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 2: the at the expense of the poor and just say 341 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 2: the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poor. 342 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 2: Sometimes that at the expense of is implied but not 343 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: stated clearly, and that you're right to state it clearly, okay. 344 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 2: And I think that for most of the history of 345 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: civilization that was true and as a result, everybody was 346 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 2: equally and they were equal, but they were equally poor, wretched, 347 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 2: and miserable. And once markets were introduced, then you could 348 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 2: do well financially and do good at the same time, 349 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,439 Speaker 2: which was not true in the ancient world to market 350 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 2: systems being introduced. So I would say yes, just because 351 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 2: just because the richer getting richer doesn't necessarily mean that 352 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 2: the poor are getting poor, because there is a sense 353 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 2: when a profit is made and when economies grow, the 354 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 2: size of the pie actually gets bigger. And just because 355 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 2: the rich are getting richer, you know, factory wages can 356 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 2: be up at the same time. Now there are things 357 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 2: that there are things about market systems where you do 358 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 2: have dislocations sometimes and so sometimes there are temporary, temporary setbacks. 359 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 2: It doesn't say that there is consistent economic growth all 360 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 2: the time. But it does say that the general pattern 361 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 2: has been that the size of the pie generally gets 362 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 2: bigger over time. 363 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 1: That's really the key. That it's not a finite If 364 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: I get that means you lose. Wealth can actually be 365 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: created and generated, so the pie gets bigger. 366 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: Wealth is being created every day. 367 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: Hence not at the expense of the pores. Why you 368 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: focused on that point. That's correct, Okay, all right, So 369 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: you talked about this a little earlier, that capitalism leads 370 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: to over consumption and materialism. I think I think you've 371 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 1: addressed that one. 372 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 2: So, yeah, materialism is a is a human vice. 373 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: An you might say in a different economic system, there 374 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 1: might be other vices that are emphasized more, but it's 375 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: not like there's just no vices in other economic systems expressed. 376 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 2: When when you are stuck in your economic strategy, the 377 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 2: vice is envy in coven dioustance is that's all you 378 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,000 Speaker 2: can do is look up with envy at the person 379 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 2: at the social media understanding above you and I. In 380 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 2: my view, envy and covetousness are far worse in socialistic 381 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 2: systems than they are in market systems. 382 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: That's I'd love to explore that, but that point is fascinating. 383 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: I'm let that sit with folks. So the last objection 384 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 1: that is often raised is that capitalism leads to economic busts. 385 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,239 Speaker 1: So in our last episode, one of the I think 386 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: there were seven or eight factors that led the author 387 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: of the book Why Christians Should Be Leftists to abandon 388 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: kind of a capitalist system, and one was the economic 389 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: crash of two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine. 390 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: So you think about like the dot com bust of 391 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: the early two thousand's mark a crash of two thousand 392 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: and eight. I'm sure another one is coming in due time. 393 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,440 Speaker 1: Some people are talking about an AI crash. Maybe that 394 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 1: could happen in the future. Doesn't capitalism lead to economic 395 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: busts like that? It can, okay, but I. 396 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 2: Would say by contrast, socialism is a constant economic bust, 397 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 2: not just at one time. 398 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: I didn't expect that answer. 399 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 2: You know the doc you know the part of the 400 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 2: reason for these booms and bugs, there's that's a whole 401 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 2: complicated subject. But part of the reason for that is 402 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 2: because people don't always act in their economic self interest. 403 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,840 Speaker 2: The dot com bust was labeled irrational exuberance and I think. 404 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: That was I remember it, that was right. Yeah. 405 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 2: And I think the you know, the market crash and 406 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 2: you know when the financial system nearly melted down, Uh, 407 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 2: I think was largely through this is a quick and 408 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: dirty summary of it, but largely through unethical activity where 409 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 2: the people who were foised, the people were foisting securities 410 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 2: on the investing public, knowing that they were useless and 411 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 2: knowing that they were going to get bailed out. 412 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: That's my, that's my And they were going to get 413 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: bailed out because of because the systems that were arguably 414 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: more socialist on the spectrum would bail them out. Is 415 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: that a fair way to characterize that? 416 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 2: Or not? Quiet because because the federal government recognized that 417 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,959 Speaker 2: they were too that the institutions that were failing were 418 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 2: too big to fail. 419 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: Got it? 420 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 2: Uh? 421 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: Okay, now we can there's a I'm sure that's the 422 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: whole story. 423 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: I've read. I've read everything published on that market crash. Okay, 424 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 2: And I encourage our listeners if you've not read the 425 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: best thing on this is Michael Lewis's book called The 426 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 2: Big Short, which was which was made into a movie, 427 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 2: which I think really captures that really nicely about and 428 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 2: it was the it was excesses, and it was it 429 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 2: was putting risks onto investors unknowingly. And I think the 430 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,159 Speaker 2: conclusion of Big Short was that the people who did 431 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 2: that knew they were going to get bailed out. So anyway, 432 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 2: that's longer. Lots of people we can agree to disagree 433 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: about some of that. But is that endemic to capitalism, 434 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 2: I say not necessarily. I mean Australia's had a market 435 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 2: system for a long time. They've they've basically avoided a 436 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:20,920 Speaker 2: lot of these booms and busts. 437 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: And they have a capitalist system largely speaking. 438 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:25,440 Speaker 2: Yes. 439 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: Interesting, Okay, So even if it were, some of this, 440 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: I guess has to be our expectations. If our expectation 441 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: is constant growth for without any steps back, and your 442 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: home is going to increase ten percent every year, like 443 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,760 Speaker 1: if you have that expectation, can't then the bust is 444 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: going to be a negative. But if you compare it 445 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: as a whole capitalism in America with some of the busts, 446 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,159 Speaker 1: which some people really have been hurt by it, and 447 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,119 Speaker 1: we can ask whether or not those are caused by 448 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 1: capitalism or not, but they exist. 449 00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 2: And whether those arms are permanent or temporary. 450 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: Fair enough, it still doesn't compare whatsoever to a socialist system. 451 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 1: So the comparison shouldn't be capitalism during its upswings versus 452 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: the down swings. It should be capitalism with the upswings 453 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 1: and down swings versus socialism. Then it's not even in 454 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: the same ballpark. It's like JV versus the NBA. Something 455 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 1: is that something somebody You don't want to be too 456 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: nailed down to that example, but generally makes the point. 457 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. I think most people if they had 458 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: their choice in living in socialist systems living in market systems, 459 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 2: they would choose market based. Now they may choose it 460 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 2: maybe something that's a little a little differently structured. They 461 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 2: may choose Europe Scandinavia, and they may choose higher taxes 462 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 2: and more services. That's it's not an unreasonable choice. What 463 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 2: it lacks, though, is the incentives for innovation, because you 464 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 2: just get to keep less of your income and there's 465 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 2: I think less incentive to go the extra mile. 466 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: Look, people in a capitalist system have different proclivities to 467 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: take risks. Right, If somebody wants a more secure, solid job, 468 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: you could go in the military, you could become a teacher, 469 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: you could do certain things but you have the opportunity, 470 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: and there's a trade off with that, but also to 471 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: take the kind of risk that create wealth, create jobs. 472 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: It's just the opportunity to do that doesn't mean people 473 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 1: can't follow systems and give up some of that for security. 474 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: A capitalist system allows that, it just doesn't require it 475 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,960 Speaker 1: and squelch those who want to take the risk. 476 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct, all right. 477 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,360 Speaker 1: So are there any goods and services that should be 478 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: off the market? Like slavery is an obvious one that 479 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: we shouldn't buy and sell human beings. I mean, it's 480 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: obvious now, not throughout the history of the world. 481 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 2: Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution is something to say about that. 482 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: There, there you go. So it wasn't obvious about the 483 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: history of the world, but it's obvious now. But are 484 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,080 Speaker 1: there other pressing issues today? And you and I have 485 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: talked about this, such as srerogacy just to give one example, 486 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,440 Speaker 1: but you could give others that we should not allow 487 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: on the market. And how do we make some of 488 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 1: those decisions about what's for sale and what's not. 489 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would think I would say adoptable children should 490 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 2: not be for purchasing sale on the open market, even 491 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 2: though that's probably a much more efficient way to do 492 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 2: it than the system we have in place. Efficient, I 493 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: would say, not effective. Those are two different things. Okay, explain, well, 494 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: it does it wouldn't. It wouldn't prevent people from, you know, simply, 495 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 2: you know, using financial financial means as the only determinant 496 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 2: of whether you get a baby or not. Okay, So 497 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: it would take away the sort of the fitness of 498 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 2: the parents, all of that, and it would it would 499 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 2: force people and this is this is part of the 500 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 2: reason that something should be off the market, because we 501 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 2: don't want financial dire straits to be coercive to people, 502 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 2: to force them to do things that they would otherwise 503 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 2: never consider doing. So that would be I always say, 504 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: you know, organs for donation should be for donation, not 505 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 2: for sale. Don't get me wrong. I wouldn't have I 506 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: would have been okay if my brother paid me ten 507 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 2: for my kidney. 508 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: So you're saying not so, it's not an in principal problem. 509 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: But having a system in which they're for sale is 510 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: going to create a supply and a demand that's going 511 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: to have a negative net effect. 512 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 2: Is that what you're I'd also say, for for organs, yeah, yes, 513 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 2: and I mean I think they're you know, again, having 514 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: a market would make it a lot more efficient, but 515 00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 2: it would also create this huge level of unfairness because 516 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 2: it would assume it would exacerbate the medical the gap 517 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: between the medical haves and have nots. It already exists, 518 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 2: and I think the way we distribute scarce resources medically 519 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: is as first come, first serve for the most part. 520 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: That's part of the concern about surrogacy is that the 521 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: rich could hire the poor to be a surrogate, and 522 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: then people would feel inclined to do that in a 523 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: way that's not hopeful and good for them. That's why 524 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: is that the main reason why we don't want that. 525 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 2: And I'm not thrilled about, you know, women's eggs or 526 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: a man sperm being for sale in the open market, 527 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 2: because then you can put specifications on what kind of 528 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: characteristics you might be inheriting in your child, leads us 529 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: toward designer children, which I think is a which undermines 530 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: the notion of children being a gift. 531 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: So so part of the core issue then is like 532 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: are we selling something that's going to do undermine human dignity, 533 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 1: like selling sex and prostitution is going to undermine the 534 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: dignity of the family, the dignity of the woman. Surrogacy 535 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: undermines the dignity. And of course just because there's clear 536 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: cases like I would say drugs and prostitution, doesn't mean 537 00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:20,360 Speaker 1: there's not more difficult cases that could go either way. 538 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: And there might be some of those. But capitalism doesn't 539 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 1: mean we sell anything whatsoever. 540 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 2: And here the principal problem showan is that if everything's 541 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: a market transaction, then then it crowds out altruism. 542 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: And that's part of the concern also with socialism is 543 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: that it removes giving to the government and takes away 544 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: the need and incentive to give individually to people, potentially 545 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: takes away oh and the resources to do it fair enough. Okay, 546 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: Well again, we can have a huge conversation on this, 547 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: but one of the big topics that people talk about 548 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: is healthcare. Is the problem that we don't have enough 549 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: market economics and competition, or that we're not enough like 550 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 1: Canada and don't have it more of a or say Europe, 551 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: a more state run kind of healthcare system, or is 552 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 1: it really not simple enough. 553 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:20,479 Speaker 2: I say it's neither of those, okay, and because both 554 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 2: both our system and the Canadian system share the same 555 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:30,919 Speaker 2: basic flaw, and that is we have we have objectives 556 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 2: and goals that are incompatible. Our healthcare system is trying 557 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 2: to provide world class innovation and care at low cost, 558 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 2: with universal access and full freedom of choice. And you 559 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 2: can't have all those things at the same time. You 560 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,400 Speaker 2: just can't. You can't have the You can't have the 561 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,360 Speaker 2: pharmaceutical industry that we have coming up with these incredible 562 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: life all during game changing medications and have and have 563 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 2: everything be low cost at the same time. The pharmaceutical 564 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 2: companies are you know, most of what the experiment on 565 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,080 Speaker 2: fails and they pour billions of dollars into things that 566 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 2: never get to market, and rightly so, and so we 567 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 2: have to make choices in this. Now that the merit 568 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 2: of a system like Canada and the UK is they've 569 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 2: made their choices consciously, we've defaulted into our choices. 570 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: We have to. 571 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,800 Speaker 2: I'm waiting for the politician to say in healthcare, you 572 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 2: can't have it all at the same time, and nobody's 573 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 2: been willing to say that. 574 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: So last question for you. You've been an advocate of 575 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,959 Speaker 1: capitalism again market economics, and you're one of the first 576 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 1: people that I had as an undergrad. I think my 577 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: senior year now my brother in law took your class 578 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: on economics, talked about this a little bit, and then 579 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: in grad school some and then really for me, reading 580 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: Jay Richards' book God Reread Money was like, oh, my goodness, 581 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: this is I agree with what you said about it 582 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: being the engine or the mechanism that has liberated more 583 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 1: people from poverty than anything else in the history of the. 584 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 2: World, just since nineteen seventy. 585 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: Just since nineteen seventy one point five people, and that's 586 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: because of a shift towards market economics. So how much 587 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: do you think churches should talk about this because I 588 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 1: don't think I've ever heard a sermon on capitalism. I'm 589 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:39,760 Speaker 1: not even saying they should give a sermon of capitalism. 590 00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:41,840 Speaker 1: In some ways, I don't have a lot of power 591 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: over the kind of government system that I live in. 592 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: My responsibility is to my neighbor, like we talked about, 593 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: But should especially since we're seeing socialism grow within maybe 594 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: younger millennials and Gen z Ers and arguably in the 595 00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 1: next generation, should this be an issue that more churches 596 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 1: are champion And if so, how. 597 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,320 Speaker 2: Well for one sean I think we should be honest 598 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 2: about the history of socialism in our public schools. 599 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 1: You mean how it's taught public schools, Okay. 600 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,719 Speaker 2: But I think in our churches, I think we talk 601 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,839 Speaker 2: about money a lot. We don't talk a lot about 602 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 2: a lot about economic life in general. And I think 603 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 2: part of the reason for that is because we don't 604 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 2: know what to do with the first centense, with the 605 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 2: first century economy, which was so different than our own, 606 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 2: and we don't we don't know what to do with 607 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,879 Speaker 2: things like Jesus statement that it's harder for a rich 608 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,520 Speaker 2: man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven and camel to 609 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 2: go through the eye of a needle, And we don't 610 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,640 Speaker 2: know what to do with the with the Bible's lack 611 00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 2: of teaching about ambition, was virtually nothing to say about 612 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 2: economic ambition, and the reason for that is because people's 613 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:57,719 Speaker 2: place was fixed. 614 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: Right it was it was, it was a moot point 615 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: the system that wastten And so. 616 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,359 Speaker 2: I think we need to be talking about economic life, 617 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 2: but we have we have to take into account these 618 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 2: vast differences, and that should that should govern how we 619 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,040 Speaker 2: interpret the Biblical text on this. But I think there 620 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 2: are some general principles that we need to be talking 621 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 2: about one. God owns it all. It's his. God has 622 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 2: entrusted this to us. God, God has God has given 623 00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 2: us a right of ownership. God has given us a 624 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,919 Speaker 2: responsibility towards taking care of the poor. God has given 625 00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 2: us an obligation to pursue our self interest sufficient to 626 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,359 Speaker 2: take care of our own needs and those of our dependents. Uh. 627 00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 2: You know things like that which we lay We lay 628 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:49,879 Speaker 2: out all of those in the book. There's several more 629 00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 2: of those. I think those are things that we can 630 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 2: be talking about when when we talk about money. Most 631 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 2: of most churches talk about money when it comes to giving. Yeah, 632 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 2: but there's that's it's just a smart piece of the 633 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 2: Biblical wisdom about money and economic life. 634 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,359 Speaker 1: I imagine socialism can take away the incentive and resources 635 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: to give. I imagine some Christians could go well, as 636 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,839 Speaker 1: long as I support capitalism, that's creating a system. I've 637 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: done my duty. That is definitely not what you're arguing 638 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:26,279 Speaker 1: for here. We still have a responsibility biblically over and 639 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: over again, take care for those to give. 640 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 2: You have more responsibility because you have more resources at. 641 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: You're okay, fair enough, that's a good, good way to 642 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: put it, well, your book is fascinating The Virtues of Capitalism, 643 00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: a moral case for free markets, and it's now in 644 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: my top two books, alongside Jay Richards book I just 645 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: think is fantastic. Virtus of Capitalism, God Gred Money. I 646 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 1: think is the title makes a biblical, a historical, and 647 00:39:54,640 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: an economic case that capitalism really is what's best for society. 648 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,840 Speaker 1: And I'm going to check out that video you mentioned, 649 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: that four minute video. We'll try to link to that below. 650 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 2: That's a good call. 651 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: All right, friends, let us know what you think about this. 652 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,879 Speaker 1: You can email us at Thinkbiblically at Biola dot edu. 653 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,400 Speaker 1: If you're watching this on YouTube, you can comment below. 654 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:17,520 Speaker 1: Is this kind of content helpful? Would you like more 655 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 1: about how to think biblically or kind of defend free 656 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: market economics or if there's enough objections that people write 657 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: in and send us, maybe we'll do a full episode 658 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,960 Speaker 1: responding back to it. But we would love to hear 659 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: for you. This is a little bit of a unique 660 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: two part series that we've done, so make sure you 661 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:36,759 Speaker 1: subscribe and follow, and thanks for joining us on the 662 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: Think Biblically podcast. 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