1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and I'm 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: joined today by doctor Ashish Pharma, and we're going to 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: be talking a little bit about how to I with maps, 12 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: but specifically we're going to be talking about the methodological 13 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 1: problem at the heart of a lot of the Biblical 14 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: manhood conversation. And so this is this is going to 15 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: be the first in a series discussing Biblical manhood and 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: how we should be thinking about it a little bit differently. 17 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: And today we thought it'd be smart to start with 18 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: just a methodological conversation to kind of set the stage 19 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,319 Speaker 1: for everything that's coming next. And so thanks for being here. 20 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: Looks any initial thoughts on this before we before we 21 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:13,119 Speaker 1: jump in. 22 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: I always love methodological conversations. So you might need that 23 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: fishing reel to reel me back in, and. 24 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: That's totally good. Well, we talked a little bit about, 25 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, starting this out in terms of maps. There's 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,040 Speaker 1: a book it's actually titled How to Lie with Maps, 27 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: And one of the things that the author notes there 28 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: is that in every map, we as the people who 29 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: are reading the map, allow for a certain degree of 30 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: what he would call lying in a map. And so 31 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: these are representations that are made by a cartographer that 32 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: are basically necessary in order for the map to be functional. 33 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: So you can imagine the map can't be an exact 34 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: replica of the terrain and still have it be functional 35 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,959 Speaker 1: for us. It can't show all the detail. It has 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: to be a summary and abbreviation. And so what he 37 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: argues is that because we trust the cryptographers to abbreviate 38 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: in an appropriate manner, then that opens it up to 39 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: the cartographers potentially being able to lie to us in 40 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: ways that we're not going to notice. And so that's 41 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: the gist of sort of or an introduction to how 42 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: he thinks about this mapping issue. And so the methodological 43 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 1: problem probably is something around what Alvis Huxley talks about, 44 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: which I kind of love his quote. He talks about 45 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: abbreviation being a necessary evil and the abbreviator's job being 46 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: to simplify but not to the point of falsification. And 47 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,480 Speaker 1: so the reality is that we're all abbreviating something. There's 48 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 1: always something that's left out of our conversation. In other words, 49 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: there's always more to say. But as we look at 50 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: these maps, there's probably something that's happening here that is 51 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: closing off additional conversation, bringing sort of an end to 52 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: a dialogue, when in fact that dialogue should be kept open. 53 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. So from where I say, there's sort of two 54 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,800 Speaker 2: issues at play with the line. Yeah right, there's the 55 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 2: one that's the necessary evil, the necessary evil of abbreviations, 56 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 2: as you just put it, where when you think about 57 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: a map, a map can only do so much, and 58 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: so a given map is only going to do so much, right, 59 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: like we think about maybe the most obvious example is 60 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 2: that we live on a sphere, but most of our 61 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 2: maps are not globes, right, and so you end up 62 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 2: having Alaska, Northern Canada, Greenland, Northern Russia. Look disproportionately huge. Yeah, 63 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 2: And that's just a function of what happens when you're 64 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 2: taking lines of latitude and longitude and having to recast 65 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 2: them on a flat on a flat, two dimensional surface 66 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 2: rather than a sphere. And so the in the ideal situation, 67 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 2: we understand that there is that problem. We don't overweigh 68 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 2: the eye test of oh, Greenland's way bigger than whatever. Right, 69 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 2: it is big, right, but it's not as disproportionally big 70 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 2: as it looks there. And you know, that's where we 71 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 2: can say maps are livable. 72 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know. 73 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 2: Related to that is the fact that if you have 74 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 2: to consider what a map is for if you're looking 75 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 2: for a roadmap, let's say we exist in a time 76 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 2: where there's no Google Maps and GPS's and you're actually 77 00:04:55,360 --> 00:05:03,239 Speaker 2: looking at a map. You don't want necessarily a topographical map. 78 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: You don't want the mountains and the scale of the mountains. 79 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 2: Which you want is the roads, right, and so the 80 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 2: road outlysts is going to give you that. And again 81 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 2: that's it. That's sort of a necessary reality of abbreviation. 82 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 2: But I think there's a second issue as well, and 83 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: that second issue is when we're not aware that there 84 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,119 Speaker 2: are those problems, and we begin to treat the map 85 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 2: as if it is basic reality. Since we're talking methodologically, 86 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 2: you know, one of the methodological ways of discussing this 87 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: is first order, second order, and we don't need to 88 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 2: get too caught up in that language other than to 89 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:49,799 Speaker 2: say that our language is inherently second order. Right, we 90 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: we engage the world and descriptive ways that are meant 91 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: to go on in the way that they've gone before. Right. 92 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: We receive from our parents and from our societies, from 93 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 2: our friends, our schools, the ways that we talk, and 94 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 2: we carry those forward in relatively relatively confident ways. But 95 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 2: the trouble comes in when we fail to recognize that 96 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: that is a second order description. It's not the same 97 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: thing as reality itself. It's already an organized way that's 98 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: been given to us that we treat as normal. And 99 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: that's where I think the methodological problem is most serious. 100 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 2: That I think we have a tendency to hear pastors 101 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: say certain things, well intentioned parents say things, well intentioned teachers, 102 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: politicians perhaps, and we may not have that filter of 103 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: being able to say, well, maybe they're not aware of 104 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 2: the complexity of a conversation, or maybe they're not aware 105 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: that they're already taking an interpretive room, and we don't 106 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 2: necessarily want to always jump in and say they're deliberately 107 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 2: trying to deceive us. So that sometimes happens, right, But 108 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 2: when we have that sort of understandably naive position, the 109 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: map becomes that second order reality becomes the default as 110 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 2: if it is primary reality. And I think that in 111 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 2: the conversation we're wanting to get into, this is especially 112 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 2: significant of an issue. 113 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like reading a map but ignoring the legend. 114 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: You know, if you were to sit back and say, 115 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: you know, okay, yeah, Greenland is disproportionately large, is it? 116 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: I don't really have a good sense of how big 117 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: Greenland is. I know what it looks like on a map. 118 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: It looks huge, right, and so, but I also know 119 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: that the map is distorting that. So when I'm looking 120 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: at the map, I'm not saying they've got all the 121 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: relative sizes correct, right. What I'm looking at is they 122 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: have the relative positions correct. This is about where Greenland is. 123 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: It's not about size, it's about position. And so you 124 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: do tend to sort of start to recognize and understand 125 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: what's really happening. 126 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 2: Here. 127 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: And I think that as we as we think through 128 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: all this in a methodological perspective, and you sit back 129 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: and you say, well, what what would be the guiding idea, 130 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: what would be the first order principles of you know, 131 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: mapping out of biblical manhood. I think what we have 132 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: to understand is we can't really start with where the 133 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: culture believes that masculinity starts, how it represents masculinity to us. 134 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: It's not that that's trivial. I think as we get 135 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: into this series and we talk about the different you know, 136 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: biblical texts where maybe Paul is addressing men in particular 137 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: roles for instance, husband or father, it's not at all 138 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: that the culture's perception of what it means to be 139 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: a good husband or father, or even what it means 140 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 1: to be masculine are irrelevant. It also, though, we have 141 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: to realize that as those are second order and they're 142 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: coming in, there has to be something first order underneath that. 143 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: And I would argue that what that first order really 144 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: is it's discipleship. And I think we probably have to 145 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: get into a little bit of what discipleship is. But 146 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: just for my shorthand, I would go to Matthew twenty 147 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: eight eighteen through twenty and essentially say that discipleship is 148 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: learning to live under the authority of Christ. And so 149 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: the concern that I have with this current conversation around 150 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: biblical manhood biblical masculinity is that we've created a separate authority, 151 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: or we've accepted a second a separate authority than Christ 152 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: when we're thinking about manhood, and that second authority is 153 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: the cultural perceptions of masculinity. And if we look at 154 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: that passage Matthew twenty eight eighteen through twent what we 155 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: really are going to see is that it starts with 156 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: Christ being given all authority. Then it goes into the 157 00:10:06,960 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: logical consequence of that authority, which is, go and make 158 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:15,959 Speaker 1: disciples of all nations. Right, So what is making disciples mean? 159 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,720 Speaker 1: What it means bringing other people under the authority of Christ. 160 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 1: It means helping them to recognize that Christ is an authority, 161 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: committing to that through baptism, and then ultimately helping them 162 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: understand what it looks like to observe all that Christ commanded. 163 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: So all discipleship really, at least in that passage, stems 164 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 1: from this idea of Jesus's the authority. And now we 165 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: are learning to live in light of that authority. We're 166 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: responding to that authority and not to some other authority. 167 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: Even the language of baptized in the name of the Father, 168 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: the Son, and the Holy Spirit, right, learning to observe 169 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: all Christ commanded. We have these qualifiers that sort of 170 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: narrow down and make very specific what it looks like 171 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: to be a disciple. We're not you know, we're not 172 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: baptized into any other name, and we're not to observe 173 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: any other authority. Right that these things are exclusionary in 174 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,559 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. And so if we and I'm 175 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: not sure whether that's what you mean by first order, 176 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: but that's where my mind goes, right, So feel free 177 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: to clarify that. But to me, that's where we start. 178 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: We start with the reality of God his position as 179 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: authority over us, and now what it means to become 180 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 1: a man has to remain coupled to that in a 181 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:42,559 Speaker 1: way that makes obedience to Christ a necessity. 182 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not exactly what I meant by first order, right, 183 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 2: But I don't know that what I meant by first 184 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 2: order is really the point. I think what you're offering 185 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 2: now is the compliment to if we're not going to 186 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 2: treat a second order reality, you know, a map, a 187 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: category as if it is the thing in in itself. 188 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 2: Then we need to be able to get even if 189 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 2: we don't necessarily know that, we can say once and 190 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: for all time, this is what the thing is in 191 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 2: and of itself. We need to get at what it 192 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 2: ought to be. Right, And I think what you're getting 193 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 2: at is a theological anthropology. Since we're into big words 194 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 2: this episode, what does it mean to be a person, 195 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 2: and specifically in a theological way in light of thinking 196 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 2: of ourselves as people who are who we are because 197 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: we are the created beings of a triune God. That's 198 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 2: what we mean by the theological anthropology. And I think 199 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 2: that basic reality before we get into content, and this 200 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 2: is where we get in trouble. I think we jump 201 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 2: into the content is that there's some notion of being 202 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 2: like Christ. But that notion of being like Christ without 203 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 2: being Christ, what I gather you're doing with discipleship has 204 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:14,479 Speaker 2: remarkably little actual material form commended to us in scripture. Yeah, 205 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 2: and I think that the church, and again that's where 206 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: I think it's a complement of the first order, right, 207 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 2: because I want to pause there and just think a 208 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: moment about why this is significant to distinguish the two. Yeah, 209 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 2: we have our categories, and our categories entail things like 210 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 2: a mammal is a certain kind of a vertebrate creature 211 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: that gives lie birth and feeds its youth via milk 212 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 2: right from the mother. And we have this other category 213 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 2: such as fish, and a fish is also vertebrate creature, 214 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 2: but reproduces via eggs. It doesn't feed the youth of 215 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 2: its of its kind via milk from the mother. But 216 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: these fish all live in the water, and so we 217 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 2: tend to think of all these creatures in the water 218 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: as fish. And then we have this strange creature like 219 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 2: a manatee or a dolphin or a whale, who are 220 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 2: entirely sea bound creatures, but they're mammals. And from a 221 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 2: practical standpoint, the reason that we make these distinctions is 222 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 2: because we're trying to lay out a careful understanding. Right, 223 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 2: Maybe not us particularly, but scientists wanted to lay out 224 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: a careful understanding of what type of creatures these are. 225 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: That's a second order description, that's a category, it's a bucket. 226 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: And the first order reality is that neither the piranha 227 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 2: on one side, right in the fish category, nor the 228 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: whale or the manatee on the mammal c category cares 229 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 2: one lick about the category. It doesn't mean the category 230 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 2: is unimportant for us, right, but it doesn't actually affect 231 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 2: the daily life of the whale, because that category is 232 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 2: already attuned to do something for us. It's a naming 233 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 2: activity relative to us. But the life of the whale 234 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 2: is the life of the whale, and the whale has 235 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 2: to be worried more so about where do I find 236 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 2: the food that I need for the day? 237 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: Right right. 238 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 2: Now? That same sort of I think reality comes unto 239 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 2: us where we're not wanting to say maps are evil. 240 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 2: They're doing something. But I think again, too often we 241 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 2: view those maps as if they are reality, in the 242 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: same ways we might view the relatively insignificant fact that 243 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: we think of whales as mammals as reality. Well, it's 244 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: not reality, it's it's our bucket. Biblical manhood similarly has 245 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 2: to be concerned about particular conversations. So, for whatever reasons, 246 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: the conversation is a risen. It was a desire to 247 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: give a map to people as to this is what 248 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 2: you should live like Now, the question is is that 249 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: a helpful map in a certain time and a certain place. 250 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 2: Perhaps I'm not sure, but perhaps, But is that in 251 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 2: and of itself the definition of that fancy word again 252 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 2: theological anthropology? Is this what God has said? This is 253 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 2: what humanity ought to be? And there's sort of the 254 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: crux of the question. And you and I want to 255 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 2: move forward, saying the goal here is less to be 256 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: concerned about the map, other than to identify the gap 257 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: between the map and the people. Right and now be 258 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 2: able to articulate if we are considering discipleship, that material 259 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 2: form of discipleship is far less certain. We get discipleship, 260 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: but what does it look like? Here? One other quick parallel, 261 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 2: like we might say, who's the true America? Is the 262 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 2: true American? The one who grows up in the so 263 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 2: called heartland, as some like to say, is the true American. 264 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 2: The one who grows up in the heavily packed urban 265 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 2: center is the true American. Someone who's a suburbanite is 266 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: the true American? A New Englander or a Southerner, or 267 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: a Midwesterner, or a West Coaster or a mountain person. 268 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 2: It's a silly question at a certain point, right, Like 269 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: all of these people can be in our Americans, so 270 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 2: to expect people to be the same in all these 271 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 2: environments is utterly silly. Right. We build our houses different 272 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 2: in each place, We grow different crops in each place 273 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 2: depending on the climate. The way that our muscle structures 274 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 2: work if we're in the mountains versus on the flatlands 275 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: are different. Yeah, and that's sort of the question that 276 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: I think you and I are trying to get at 277 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 2: by offering a critique, but not a denigration of the map, right. 278 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, It's interesting. When I went back through and 279 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: read some of the authors that will be interacting with, 280 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:17,320 Speaker 1: there were some common threads, Right, what are to your point, 281 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: the map might be good for a certain moment or 282 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 1: trying to react or respond to a certain moment. And 283 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: so a lot of what I what I was reading 284 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: it involves this, I don't know whether i'll call it, 285 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: let's just say it's a supposed crisis amongst men, especially 286 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: young men. How do you take responsibility? You know, how 287 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: do you own some of the characteristics that are normally 288 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: associated with, or have been traditionally associated with being a man, 289 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: being aggressive, being ambitious, being competent and confident in all 290 00:18:55,720 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: these kind of ideas, And what most of the people 291 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:04,280 Speaker 1: that I read are saying is that we're starting to 292 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: lose that, that we've overcorrected, let's say, from a time 293 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: when those characteristics used to be the pinnacle of everything. 294 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,639 Speaker 1: Everybody needed these characteristics, Like there was this uber masculine 295 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: sort of understanding of yes, be ambitious, Yes, move forward, Yes, 296 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: be brazen, you know, be bold, pull yourself up by 297 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: your own bootstraps. And there's been this overcorrection away from 298 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: those to say that these things are now wrong to do, 299 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: that these are bad things to do. And so I 300 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: think a lot of the literature we're going to interact 301 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: with wants to rehab this perspective of saying, no, it's 302 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,879 Speaker 1: not bad to be ambitious, it's not bad to have 303 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: exercise responsibility, it's not bad to be confident and competent 304 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 1: in the areas that you're in. I don't think that's 305 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: a bad diagnosis necessarily, right. I think the problem is 306 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 1: that it's a reaction to something, and that in reacting 307 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: to something, it hasn't drawn back into the biblical and 308 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: theological resources the way that I think it should and 309 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,440 Speaker 1: the way I think really every Christian ought to think 310 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: it should right and just say like, we're not looking 311 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: for brazen ambition, we're not looking for sheer aggression, like 312 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: we all want those to be qualified and shaped, and 313 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,440 Speaker 1: I think everybody would acknowledge that. Unfortunately, I think a 314 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 1: lot of the literature on masculinity is over responding to 315 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: the overcorrection and not actually giving a set of resources 316 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:54,719 Speaker 1: that would help young men be appropriately aggressive, be appropriately ambitious, 317 00:20:55,080 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: and have those tendencies if they have them shaped by discipleship. 318 00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: And that, to me is a big part of the 319 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: problem in sort of putting out this different prototype right 320 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 1: or even worse, as we'll kind of see as we 321 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: go through this, I think is framing Jesus as the 322 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: pinnacle of masculinity. 323 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: Right. 324 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: What we begin to see is that this sort of 325 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: slippage so that Jesus starts to look more like us 326 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: than we we're supposed to look like him. There's a 327 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: way in which we start to shape Jesus into who 328 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: we want him to be, as opposed to taking him 329 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:43,080 Speaker 1: on his own terms. When we draw our map. You know, 330 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: as you've referenced in other places, you know, Jesus tends 331 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: to have broad shoulders and six pack abs, right, and 332 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: so you have these sort of pictures of Jesus where 333 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 1: everything he does is this uber masculine thing, even to 334 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 1: the point where some of the authors are saying that 335 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: when he cries at Lazarus's death, he cries like a 336 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: man in contrast to Mary, who cries like a woman. Now, 337 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: there's no indication in the text of this, but these 338 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: are the sort of aberrations that tend to come out 339 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: of this, And to me, it's the methodological problem is 340 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: that we're letting the cultural context the crisis that's being 341 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: identified that I think could be the right diagnosis, but 342 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 1: we're allowing that diagnosis then to dictate the solution and 343 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: rereading Jesus's life so that it comes out so it 344 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: turns out to be polar opposite of where the culture 345 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 1: wants us to go. But it's polar opposite in a 346 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: very odd, the cheese moish sort of way, as opposed 347 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: to allowing Jesus be countercultural in his own right and 348 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: then having us follow after that particular way of being human. 349 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, questions popped to my mind immediately, which is when 350 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 2: we start to do those sorts of grafting of Jesus 351 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:14,239 Speaker 2: into our particular storylines, and we say he's masculine, and 352 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 2: then we have to go to something like Jesus wept, 353 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: and well, he cried like a man. I have to chuckle, 354 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 2: as you've pointed out, that's all the text says, Jesus wept. 355 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,919 Speaker 2: That's it, right, Yeah, So before I even get to 356 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 2: what does it mean to cry like a man? Right, 357 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 2: how do we even know that he did? Apart from 358 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 2: some prior presumption that Jesus, you know, the argument would 359 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 2: go probably something like this, Jesus came as a man, 360 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 2: not a woman, as a man who is God as well. 361 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 2: He's the fullness of that representation of who a man is. 362 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 2: So he's not going to have any slippage and his 363 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 2: madness and start to devolve into womanness like so many 364 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 2: problems on so many levels, right, There no need to 365 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,239 Speaker 2: get into those at the moment. But what we do 366 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 2: in those moments to get to our previous discussion on 367 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 2: maps is now that we have this important understanding of 368 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 2: what jesus masculinity is, which really is more of a 369 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 2: putting him into a prior mold. Yes, that says something 370 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: more about our time and a place. We've now created 371 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: a structure that is frankly violent. Right, because now we're 372 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: going to people and we're saying, so, unless you can 373 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 2: live into this, this thing that we don't actually know 374 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 2: that Jesus even lived into, but that we've decided he 375 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: does or did, you're something less than what a fully 376 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 2: man ought to be. Yeah, and I think you know, 377 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 2: you and I both have plenty of stories we could 378 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 2: tell of where that's gone. Amok, Right, where you have 379 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: you have people who grow up either on one side 380 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 2: embodying that. I suppose there's more than two sides here, 381 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 2: but could be a embodying that and then replicating it 382 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:18,159 Speaker 2: b kind of by resignation, living into it in ways 383 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 2: that are self detrimental. Yeah, and don't don't really align 384 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 2: with what a person is, or just full on reject 385 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 2: it and in the process reject Jesus with it, which 386 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 2: creates a double problem. Right, We've got the problem of 387 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 2: not just rejecting it. Okay, so then how do you 388 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 2: fill the rejection? How do you fill that space? But 389 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,720 Speaker 2: also what do we now do to try to go 390 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: to that person and say, hey, hey, that's not who 391 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 2: Jesus was. Forget it. I've heard about Jesus plenty. I'm 392 00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 2: not doing this right. Yeah, real problems that is baked 393 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: into this, right that I'm tempted to say that, you know, 394 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,120 Speaker 2: you have some people for whom this sort of manhood 395 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 2: discussion has been very helpful towards. And they're like the 396 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 2: people who are closer to the equator in that map 397 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 2: where there's less distortion. Sure, but the closer you get 398 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,880 Speaker 2: to the polls you're less you're more likely to be distorted. 399 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,199 Speaker 2: Now you're distorting a person. But I don't even know 400 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 2: that that's the way to go through with this, because 401 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 2: that seems to be giving credence to the idea of well, 402 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 2: there are some for whom this is good and others 403 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 2: it distorts them. But I'm not sure that it's good 404 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 2: for anybody to carry forward this particular idea of masculine. Now, 405 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 2: this is not saying if you're James Spencer and you 406 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 2: can bench five thousand pounds or whatever the exact number is, 407 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 2: that's bad, right, It's just simply saying it's actually neither 408 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: good nor bad on the anthropological discussion, neither finds a man, 409 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 2: nor does it not define a man. It just simply 410 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 2: tells us spot Jams Spencer. 411 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is where I think we want to 412 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: as we do this sort of methodological problem, if we 413 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 1: deal with it. As we deal with this methodological problem, 414 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: I think one of the things we also want to 415 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: keep in mind is that each of us embodies our 416 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: maleness differently. So there's this great book I really enjoy 417 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: James C. Scott. He wrote a book called Seeing Like 418 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 1: a State. And part of what he talks about and 419 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 1: Seeing like a State is that if you picture a forest, 420 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: it's got all the trees in it. You could go 421 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: in and you could touch and see each one of 422 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: the individual trees, and they're different in a myriad of ways. 423 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,199 Speaker 1: But he says, when the state kind of gets in charge, 424 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,680 Speaker 1: the state has to make things manageable, like it's part 425 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: of what the state does. It just it's part of 426 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: the function. And so instead of going in and looking 427 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: at the uniqueness of each individual tree, what they do 428 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: is they say, well, there's so many yards of wood 429 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: within the forest, and so they have to have these 430 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: measures right that you give them the ability to manage 431 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: some of what's there, to handle the resources. And so 432 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 1: even as we're talking about what does it really mean 433 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: to be a human, what does it really mean to 434 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: be a biblical a male disciple of Jesus Christ. We're 435 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: ramping that up to a level that has the potential 436 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 1: of minimizing individual difference. Right, You and I are both males, 437 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: but we're both very different people. We've had different upbringings, 438 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,919 Speaker 1: We've had different experiences, we went to different colleges sometimes. 439 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I know we both shared our Weekned experience, 440 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 1: but like we haven't had the same life, right, and 441 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: so we embody the world differently. So nothing that we're 442 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 1: going to say about being a male disciple of Jesus 443 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: Christ necessarily applies to both of us in the exact 444 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: same way. There has to be that individual individualization there 445 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: as well. Each person has to work it out out 446 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 1: for themselves, but that's worked out within a set of 447 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: boundaries and constraints. It's like, you can't just decide, well, no, 448 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: for me, this this you know, clear principle son in 449 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: scripture doesn't mean anything, right, I'm gonna I'm going to 450 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: depart from that and just do whatever I feel like doing. 451 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: It's not that sort of individualization, but it is a 452 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: We're confronted with a number of different situations as individuals, 453 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,480 Speaker 1: and the way that we respond to those is going 454 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: to be unique depending on what we bring to the table. 455 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not a sensitive person generally. I don't 456 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: have like most of the people who know me, if 457 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: I gave them a hug when they're, you know, feeling bad, 458 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: they find that surprising because I'm just not a real 459 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: touchy feely guy. Right. The hugs don't come easy, right, 460 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,480 Speaker 1: But I'm more the person that people would come to 461 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: if they're having like a strategic problem or you know, 462 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: something like that. Like I don't relate to people as 463 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 1: well with you know, the sort of emotion that would 464 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: yield a hug, as I am the sort of logic 465 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: that would yield the strategy. And so that's not good. 466 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 1: That's not bad, you know. Does it mean that I 467 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: need to be more fully well rounded? Probably, But it's 468 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: not like to be a man means you have to 469 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: give people strategy and avoid the hugs. That's not the point, right. 470 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: The point is that as I do this, that's just 471 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,959 Speaker 1: more my pocket. That's where I am, right, and so 472 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: I think we want to not lose that either. So 473 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: in this methodological discussion, we're going to be talking sort 474 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: of this umbrella category of what does it mean to 475 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: be a mail disciple of Christ? But the reality is 476 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: that the specifics of that almost always are going to 477 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: differ from person to person. 478 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, to the point of discipleship that you brought up earlier. 479 00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 2: The question then, more materially, is okay, James tagic guy, 480 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,920 Speaker 2: not the go to him for a hug guy. Great? 481 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 2: So what does it look like for James to be 482 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 2: a faithful disciple as that strategic guy, in which that's 483 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 2: a valuable person as a member of a community, right, 484 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 2: And what does it look like for whoever it is 485 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 2: that's the touchy feely go to him for a hug guy, yes, 486 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 2: to do so as a valuable member of a community. 487 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: And specifically, what does it look like then in a 488 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 2: Christian theological conversation, for both to be quite quite reasonably 489 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,680 Speaker 2: impossibly together to be transformed into the image of Christ 490 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 2: and continue to be James the strategic guy and person 491 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: be the hug guy. That's the kind of idea play. 492 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,239 Speaker 2: And I want to I want to appeal briefly, I'm 493 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 2: gonna I'm going to ask to fine tune some of 494 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 2: the language you use. If we don't have to go 495 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,800 Speaker 2: with the fine tune language but least to bring it up. 496 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 2: Kevin Van Whoser, theologian, he's very. 497 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: Very very much. 498 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 2: Interested in moving beyond principle language. Yeah, and I tend 499 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,760 Speaker 2: to share his concern there. Right. The thing about principles 500 00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 2: is that we we look at a story, or we 501 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: look at an event, or we look at a teaching, 502 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 2: and then we discern some core thing about it that 503 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 2: we can say, this is the timeless piece, and we 504 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 2: pull it out, and then we use that to draw 505 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 2: bridges of application to new environments. And I think what's 506 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 2: difficult about that, to quote the philosopher, well maybe not 507 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 2: quote to appeal to the philosopher kurekerguard, is that that 508 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 2: sort of timeless idea sounds wonderful, and to your realize, 509 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 2: we're not timeless beings. Yeah, we're somewhere at some place 510 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 2: in some time, and so timelessness is completely and utterly 511 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 2: useless to us. Yes, yeah, And to begin to even 512 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 2: take that timeless principle and distill it, we've already made 513 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 2: it time full. We've placed it in time using certain 514 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 2: kinds of language, in certain places, with certain people around us, 515 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: with certain cultures and categories. So we've never actually arrived 516 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 2: at it as a timeless thing. Yeah, And so what 517 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 2: we're really doing is we're saying, I'm drawing bridges of 518 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 2: application from my version of it or our version of 519 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,680 Speaker 2: it somewhere else. And I think that might be where 520 00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 2: the map problem has come in, where it ceased to 521 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,680 Speaker 2: be a highly specific tool to help people in a 522 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 2: certain place do something, and we begin to confuse it 523 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 2: in that first order way with the thing in and 524 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 2: of itself, in this case the thing being reality, creation, personhood. 525 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 2: So Van Hoosier talks instead of principle to talk about paradigms. Now, 526 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 2: whether we use that language or not, who cares. But 527 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 2: the idea that he's trying to get out here is 528 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 2: that we're always trying to discern what it is that's 529 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 2: going on biblically and seeing if those Biblical realities can 530 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 2: serve as paradigms that intersect with my reality. 531 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:20,879 Speaker 1: Right. 532 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 2: So I live in a time of indoor plumbing, as 533 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:29,240 Speaker 2: do you, right, And we have air conditioning and heating systems, 534 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 2: we have cars, we have the internet, we have TVs 535 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 2: like we're in a podcast. None of those things are 536 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,719 Speaker 2: in the biblical framework. Does that make it irrelevant to us? 537 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 2: Of course not? But The idea here is to say 538 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 2: there are certain certain things about us that haven't changed. 539 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 2: We have needs, we have desires, and so there are 540 00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 2: pathosses that can move from the text and intersect with 541 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 2: our realities, and that's the place where we get these 542 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 2: interesting moments of meaning. But because of that, as we're 543 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,279 Speaker 2: not talking about timeless principles, the reality is is that 544 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 2: we continue to have the conversation. Right, we begin to 545 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,240 Speaker 2: ask the question of James and people paradigmatically like James, 546 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 2: the people exist, right, there are others like you would 547 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 2: have perhaps a similar avenue for being able to understand 548 00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 2: within a larger holistic context, what does it mean to 549 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 2: be a man versus the person who's going to give 550 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 2: the hug? Right, And other people like that person who's 551 00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 2: going to give the hug have a similar sort of 552 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 2: environment or paradigm that can intersect with the text, and 553 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 2: both are important. Right. I gather that that's why, whether 554 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 2: it be body imagery or vine imagery, marital imagery, that 555 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 2: these images in scripture are constantly speaking of interjoining realities. 556 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:56,959 Speaker 2: And that's the kind of thing we want to get at, 557 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 2: not to again say there's no use, but to also 558 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 2: relativize what maps are because they are relative entities. 559 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate the language comment. I felt dirty as 560 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,760 Speaker 1: soon as I said principles. So I'm with you there. 561 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: I usually use patterns, you know, if we think about 562 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: you know, Paul and the way he appeals to ancient Israel, 563 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: and he'll draw it across and he'll say, these things 564 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 1: were written for our understanding, these things were written as 565 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 1: lessons to us. He's really referring not to a principle, 566 00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: to a whole pattern of activity that's going on in 567 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: the Old Testament. We see something very similar, I think 568 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 1: when he uses the law of the muscle docs and 569 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: and so he's not really pulling a principle out of that. 570 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: What he's highlighting, I think is a theological pattern, a 571 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: way of relating to God and world and others that 572 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: is encapsulated within this one command. And so I think 573 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: oftentime that's been treated as a principle, that timeless principle 574 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: idea that you're suggesting there, And I've sort of tried 575 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: to shy away from that language as well. Instead of paradigm, 576 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: I use patterns, but it's largely the same thing. And 577 00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: so I think that's a good reminder that we're not 578 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:14,520 Speaker 1: looking at these timeless truths that come out of here. 579 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: What we're really trying to say is there are all 580 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,240 Speaker 1: these patterns that seem to recur as we relate with God, 581 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 1: with others and with creation, and so what we're trying 582 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,239 Speaker 1: to figure out is what pattern to apply where? How 583 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,920 Speaker 1: is it that these patterns inform our activities, How is 584 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: it that we participate with God and this agent arena? 585 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: And what could we learn from people in the past, 586 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,600 Speaker 1: maybe those who are written in scripture, maybe other people 587 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: around us, maybe you know, folks from church history, whatever 588 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 1: that is. But what logics were they using to sort 589 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: of maneuver this new arena and how could those be 590 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: applicable to us today? I think that's probably is that 591 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: close to what you're getting at it is? 592 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I like pattern Let's go with pattern. 593 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: Sounds good? All right, Well, we're going to close this 594 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: episode out. So that was sort of our initial methodological discussion. 595 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 1: The next segment is going to be on redrawing the map, 596 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:12,720 Speaker 1: and so we're going to look at what it looks 597 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: like to approach mail discipleship when the old framework has failed. 598 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: What happens if we throw away the old maps, what 599 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,239 Speaker 1: do we do? And so we'll be a little bit 600 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 1: more constructive in this next one. So thanks Ashiush for 601 00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 1: being here, thanks everybody for listening, and we'll catch on 602 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,239 Speaker 1: the next episode of Thinking Christian Take Care. I just 603 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:32,879 Speaker 1: want to take a second to thank the team at 604 00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 1: Life Audio for their partnership with us on the Thinking 605 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll 606 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,520 Speaker 1: find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. 607 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.