1
00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,320
Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to Thanking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer,

2
00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:05,640
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here. In this special series, we're

3
00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:07,840
Speaker 1: stepping back into one of the most pivotal times in

4
00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,040
Speaker 1: Christian history, the German Reformation. This was a time when

5
00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,880
Speaker 1: the Gospel was being rediscovered, the Church was being challenged,

6
00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,840
Speaker 1: and the course of Western civilization was being reshaped with

7
00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,520
Speaker 1: ripples that still reach into our lives today. And to

8
00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:21,840
Speaker 1: guide us through this journey, I'm joined by a true expert,

9
00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:24,680
Speaker 1: someone who doesn't just know the Reformation from books, but

10
00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:28,160
Speaker 1: from the cobblestone streets and cathedral halls where it actually happened,

11
00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,560
Speaker 1: Doctor Greg Quiggle. Greg is a Reformation historian and the

12
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,600
Speaker 1: owner and operator of Kotelis Travel, a company that runs

13
00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,479
Speaker 1: what they call tours for ten, intimate travel experiences designed

14
00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,960
Speaker 1: for people who want something deeper than a typical tour.

15
00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,040
Speaker 1: They offer a three to one guest to guide ratio,

16
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,320
Speaker 1: and these trips give you consistent access to guides who've

17
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,920
Speaker 1: been on location multiple times, who know not only the history,

18
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,280
Speaker 1: but also where to find the best able strudal and

19
00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,520
Speaker 1: other German delicacies along the way. You can learn more

20
00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:00,600
Speaker 1: about Greg and Kotellus at kotellistravelservice dot com. And if

21
00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,200
Speaker 1: this series piques your interest, Greg actually has a German

22
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,160
Speaker 1: Reformation trip coming up this May, and last I heard,

23
00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,680
Speaker 1: there are still a few seats available. In this series,

24
00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,319
Speaker 1: Greg is going to help us explore the people, places,

25
00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,479
Speaker 1: and theological stakes of the Reformation as well as helping

26
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,440
Speaker 1: us understand why it still matters for Christians today. So

27
00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,880
Speaker 1: let's get started. We're continuing the conversation with regard to Luther,

28
00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,960
Speaker 1: and we're going to talk today about his time in

29
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,880
Speaker 1: a place called Airfoot and Airfort is the I'll Greg

30
00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,240
Speaker 1: could sort of explain it a bit more. But even

31
00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,120
Speaker 1: when we do our German Reformation tours, we stop off

32
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,280
Speaker 1: in Airfort, we get to see the Augustinian monastery where

33
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,400
Speaker 1: Luther was staying and stayed for a time and really

34
00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,880
Speaker 1: received a fair amount of his theological training. And so

35
00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:46,520
Speaker 1: today we're going to talk a little bit about what

36
00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,640
Speaker 1: led him to Airfoot, what was the you know, the

37
00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 1: transformation that sort of took place to prompt him to

38
00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,080
Speaker 1: join a monastery because he wasn't headed in this direction,

39
00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:02,240
Speaker 1: and then also how life in that in that Augustinian

40
00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:08,760
Speaker 1: monastery really shaped his posture toward the world. Maybe, so great,

41
00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,720
Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. Happy to have you. Maybe

42
00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,320
Speaker 1: let's dive in a bit give Let's let's start maybe

43
00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,560
Speaker 1: with a little bit of a rewind and give people

44
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,200
Speaker 1: just a sense of, you know, where we're at in

45
00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,200
Speaker 1: the Luther's story, and then we'll talk a little about

46
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:29,960
Speaker 1: about this transformative vow that that Luther makes that leads

47
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:31,840
Speaker 1: him into the Augustinian Monastery.

48
00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,720
Speaker 2: And really the fundamental question that Luther is really struggling

49
00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,680
Speaker 2: with is what's going to happen when I die? Or

50
00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,519
Speaker 2: if we stated it theologically, how can I stand before

51
00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:49,200
Speaker 2: a holy God? And you remember we spent some time

52
00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:55,280
Speaker 2: talking about God's or or or humans understanding of God

53
00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,520
Speaker 2: during that time that we went through things like plagues

54
00:02:58,760 --> 00:03:03,880
Speaker 2: and the evasiveness of death, and God is viewed as

55
00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:09,799
Speaker 2: perpetually angry and God is one who is righteous judge.

56
00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:15,120
Speaker 2: Even Jesus is seen as a righteous judge. So Luther

57
00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:20,680
Speaker 2: has this sense of foreboding that God is sort of

58
00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:25,720
Speaker 2: this angry being that's almost looking for reasons to hit him.

59
00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:31,960
Speaker 2: And he's got this overwhelming sense of guilt and anxiety,

60
00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,760
Speaker 2: and this has been driven by he has a friend

61
00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:39,680
Speaker 2: that dies and where is he? Where is he? Where

62
00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 2: did he go? You know what happened to me? He

63
00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,640
Speaker 2: had an accident where he actually stuck himself in the

64
00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,440
Speaker 2: leg with a dagger, almost bled to death. And so

65
00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 2: all these things are coming to head. Now he's a

66
00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,680
Speaker 2: student at the University of Airfort. He's completed as BA

67
00:03:58,880 --> 00:04:05,240
Speaker 2: there and now he is sort of making a trip

68
00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,200
Speaker 2: and sort of the lightning point in this to be

69
00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,680
Speaker 2: as you'll see make the story work traveling, and there's

70
00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,360
Speaker 2: various versions of the story. He's either on horseback or walking,

71
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:25,120
Speaker 2: but regardless, he's in the middle of a storm and

72
00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:31,600
Speaker 2: he's terrified. Lightning apparently strikes close to him. He either

73
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,520
Speaker 2: falls to the ground or is not to the ground,

74
00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:37,560
Speaker 2: And at least the story is, he cries out to

75
00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:41,200
Speaker 2: the patron saint of miners. As you remember we talked about,

76
00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:47,919
Speaker 2: his father was a miner, Saint Anne's, who was supposedly

77
00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:55,360
Speaker 2: the mother of Mary's mother. If I'm remembering the story,

78
00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,000
Speaker 2: I'm raised a Baptist, so I'm a little weak on saints,

79
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:05,400
Speaker 2: so excuse me. So Saint Anne's helped me and I

80
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:11,360
Speaker 2: will become a monk. And there's an old But when

81
00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:16,920
Speaker 2: the biographers of Martin Luther, Roland Baton wrote a biography

82
00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:19,719
Speaker 2: in the fifties or sixties called Here I Stand, and

83
00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,120
Speaker 2: I remember seeing a video with Baton and he says

84
00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,440
Speaker 2: he cried out to Saint Anne's. Saint Anne's helped me,

85
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,560
Speaker 2: and I will become a monk, and he said, and

86
00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:36,040
Speaker 2: she did and he did so he he he makes

87
00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:42,480
Speaker 2: this vow to Saint Anne and uh, unlike a lot

88
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 2: of people who makes vows to God in fox holes

89
00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:49,400
Speaker 2: or this or that the other, he actually follows through

90
00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:53,760
Speaker 2: on this thing. So he goes with a group of

91
00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:59,039
Speaker 2: his university friends, bangs on the door of the Augustinian

92
00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,600
Speaker 2: Monastery and air for you know, let me in, Let

93
00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:05,560
Speaker 2: me in. Why I'm going to become a monk, And

94
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:11,359
Speaker 2: they're like, don't do this. His father is going to

95
00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:17,840
Speaker 2: be absolutely utterly lived because Luther is very smart. When

96
00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,720
Speaker 2: we've talked about that before too as well. The guys,

97
00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,640
Speaker 2: this is going to be his golden ticket, right, there

98
00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 2: is no social security. Your kids are your social security.

99
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:32,080
Speaker 2: He's supposed to be a lawyer. Yeah, he's brilliant, and

100
00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:34,440
Speaker 2: he ends up becoming a monk and he becomes the

101
00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,840
Speaker 2: worst kind of monk. You're supposed to be a Dominican.

102
00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,960
Speaker 2: These are kind of like the you know, the hang

103
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,920
Speaker 2: out with the royalty and the upsale all this stuff.

104
00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,120
Speaker 2: But he becomes what's an Augustinian And these are called

105
00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:54,320
Speaker 2: begging monks, which means literally what it says, how do

106
00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:58,039
Speaker 2: they make their money? They go out and beg So

107
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:01,760
Speaker 2: you can imagine this. You know, I sent my kid

108
00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 2: to university, He's gonna be my meal ticket. And now

109
00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,640
Speaker 2: people don't even like these people because they just walk

110
00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:14,400
Speaker 2: around begging for money. That's how they do things. So

111
00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 2: he ends up in this in this monastery. And it's

112
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,360
Speaker 2: crazy because the plague, if I remember the story right,

113
00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,560
Speaker 2: the plague is going around. He's supposed to be. They

114
00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,640
Speaker 2: put you in a temporary thing for I think it's

115
00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,920
Speaker 2: either two weeks or two months, I can't remember exactly,

116
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,840
Speaker 2: but the plague is going around, and they almost kind

117
00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:35,720
Speaker 2: of forget he's in there. I'm in there longer than

118
00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,960
Speaker 2: he's supposed to be. And uh you know that Oh yeah,

119
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,640
Speaker 2: that that Martin Luther kids up there. Bang, you still

120
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,440
Speaker 2: want to do this? Yes, yeah, yeah, I still want

121
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,760
Speaker 2: to do this. So so there he is. He becomes

122
00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,600
Speaker 2: a monk. So so that's that's how this gets there,

123
00:07:52,600 --> 00:08:00,160
Speaker 2: and what's driving him James, is this, how can I

124
00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,960
Speaker 2: stand before a holy God? How can I get God

125
00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:08,760
Speaker 2: off my back? How can I get this clarity about

126
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,080
Speaker 2: what's going to happen to you when I die?

127
00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,400
Speaker 1: So when we talk about this, because I think it's

128
00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:16,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of difficult when we think about our modern

129
00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 1: day religious landscape, he don't really religion has been a

130
00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,760
Speaker 1: little bit more pushed to the side. It's nowhere near

131
00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:26,920
Speaker 1: his central to our imagination. Yes, you know, just generally

132
00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,200
Speaker 1: in society. And so Martin Luther is going to Aerford.

133
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,480
Speaker 1: He's trying to earn his BA in where he has

134
00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,080
Speaker 1: earned his BA in law, which I don't know whether

135
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,920
Speaker 1: you're I don't know whether there's an intersection between law

136
00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,240
Speaker 1: and theology back then, or you know how much religious

137
00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,000
Speaker 1: studies they would have taken. But point is, he's not

138
00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:50,200
Speaker 1: studying theology, he's not studying biblical studies or something like that.

139
00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:54,800
Speaker 1: He's studying the law. And so like, how did that

140
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,360
Speaker 1: religious realm function to shape and form him? So that

141
00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:03,560
Speaker 1: this question was top of I get the the perils

142
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,160
Speaker 1: of just daily life that in that period that's that's

143
00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,760
Speaker 1: got that's a component of it. But where is he

144
00:09:09,920 --> 00:09:13,600
Speaker 1: linking in to the church, And how prominent is the

145
00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,640
Speaker 1: church at this point in the lives of just everyday

146
00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:17,800
Speaker 1: folk in Germany.

147
00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:22,880
Speaker 2: Oh, the your entire existence is defined by the church.

148
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,760
Speaker 2: So the calendar is driven by the church. Everything is

149
00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:33,560
Speaker 2: driven by the Church. So all you know, it's it's

150
00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 2: a function of saints, stay's, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

151
00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:44,240
Speaker 2: So it's hard for us as secularists to even begin

152
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:51,199
Speaker 2: to process how deeply wound religion is in the culture.

153
00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:59,079
Speaker 2: Everything is marked by the religious culture. Everything is driven

154
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,480
Speaker 2: by that. There is no Martin Luther King Day or

155
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:08,120
Speaker 2: Independence Day or secular vacation or any of that sort

156
00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:12,600
Speaker 2: of stuff. It is all a function of religious holiday,

157
00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:19,640
Speaker 2: religious ritual, and the belief in the life to come.

158
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,800
Speaker 2: I've said this before, but I'll say it again because

159
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,840
Speaker 2: it's absolutely central. Medievalists believe more in the life to

160
00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,439
Speaker 2: come than this life, partly because this life was awful

161
00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:35,360
Speaker 2: for most of them. Yes, we have no idea. We

162
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,480
Speaker 2: think our life is hard, We have no idea what

163
00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 2: it was like for the average person, and so they

164
00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:49,760
Speaker 2: have this overwhelming sense my death is. As we've talked

165
00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,480
Speaker 2: about before, death is everywhere. There's no way around it.

166
00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,600
Speaker 2: It's in your face. So the overwhelming question is not

167
00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,320
Speaker 2: going to be how can I be happy and have

168
00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:05,800
Speaker 2: a fulfilling job. The overwhelming question is how am I

169
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,800
Speaker 2: What's going to happen to me when my inevitable death comes?

170
00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,760
Speaker 2: And these are all religious questions. They are we don't

171
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,680
Speaker 2: think about death. I mean, I was talking to my

172
00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:24,000
Speaker 2: wife and some friends. I'm sixty eight now. I started

173
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:32,760
Speaker 2: to think about death when I was fifty, even sixty.

174
00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,200
Speaker 2: But now I have friends that have died, I have

175
00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:44,360
Speaker 2: friends that have illnesses that are potentially life threatening. Things

176
00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:48,960
Speaker 2: don't work the way they used to. And suddenly questions

177
00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,240
Speaker 2: that I never bothered to think about. Yeah, and they're

178
00:11:53,280 --> 00:12:01,240
Speaker 2: religious questions. Luther is dealing with these as a young person. Now.

179
00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,800
Speaker 2: He has a far more sensitive conscience than most people.

180
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:14,160
Speaker 2: We have to acknowledge that. But he is not untypical

181
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:20,720
Speaker 2: in the sense that he is religiously minded, and so

182
00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,200
Speaker 2: that they would have it is so it's hard for

183
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,360
Speaker 2: us to understand how deeply wound this is in their life.

184
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,319
Speaker 2: The church is the center of everything, it's it's the

185
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:38,040
Speaker 2: geographic center of the town. It's the highest building. Everything

186
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:44,080
Speaker 2: revolves around it. Things are name, the names are religious,

187
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:51,160
Speaker 2: the days are religious. It's it's just it's hard to

188
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 2: even explain how deeply wound this is in life.

189
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, any uh, any insight into why he ends up

190
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,520
Speaker 1: using the Augustinian monastery as opposed to the other monasteries.

191
00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,120
Speaker 1: I mean, is this just sort of Luther kind of

192
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,560
Speaker 1: deciding to punish himself. I mean, does he see something

193
00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:16,680
Speaker 1: in the Augustinian poverty that is more aligned the way

194
00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:20,720
Speaker 1: he's struggling to understand how he can stand before Holy God.

195
00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:23,760
Speaker 2: That's a good question, James, that I should know the

196
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,559
Speaker 2: answer to, but I don't. But I'd like to thank

197
00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,160
Speaker 2: you for giving me the opportunity to demonstrate why I

198
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:33,520
Speaker 2: should not be on this program.

199
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:36,600
Speaker 1: It's a discussion, so I mean, we can have a

200
00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,160
Speaker 1: little bit of we can have a little speculation.

201
00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:42,840
Speaker 2: My guess is though, if I was to take a guess,

202
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,520
Speaker 2: and I may have known this at one point in time,

203
00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,560
Speaker 2: but as I noted, I'm sixty eight and I do

204
00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,760
Speaker 2: have a mind like a steel sieve, so that would

205
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:58,040
Speaker 2: make sense. Yeah, he is in the mode and that

206
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:04,520
Speaker 2: that is perfect in the culture that the way to

207
00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:09,120
Speaker 2: get right with God is to beat yourself up. Yeah,

208
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:18,400
Speaker 2: and deprivation asceticism is deeply wound in religious practice. This

209
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:26,120
Speaker 2: is as anti prosperity gospel as you can get in

210
00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:26,760
Speaker 2: that sense.

211
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting to think through some of the structure

212
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,680
Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church that you know we've talked through,

213
00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:44,640
Speaker 1: so you do tend to see almost like a if

214
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,120
Speaker 1: I can describe it this way, a tearing of society

215
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:52,920
Speaker 1: between the upper echelon who have unique insight and almost

216
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 1: access to these spiritual matters and can sort of they

217
00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,560
Speaker 1: hold the keys of the kingdom, so to speak, and

218
00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:08,440
Speaker 1: they're loosing and binding, you know, at their whim versus

219
00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,360
Speaker 1: the rest of the people who are sort of the

220
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:14,240
Speaker 1: rank and file, and they're just going along and not

221
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 1: even understanding what's red and Latin masses, but they're just

222
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,400
Speaker 1: following the instructions of their leaders so that they are

223
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:30,720
Speaker 1: quote unquote covered and sufficiently forgiven such that they will

224
00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 1: eventually minimize their time in purgatory and make it then

225
00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:41,760
Speaker 1: ultimately into heaven. Yes, so yeah, go ahead, no, no,

226
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 1: go ahead.

227
00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,600
Speaker 2: Well, so, I mean, you know, we've talked about these

228
00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:51,720
Speaker 2: in earlier broadcasts. But the idea here is the conformity,

229
00:15:52,680 --> 00:16:00,400
Speaker 2: and this is Plato's republic, this is the philosopher king.

230
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:02,880
Speaker 2: It is their job to be the brains, that is

231
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:06,800
Speaker 2: the elite, and it's the people's job to just sort

232
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,960
Speaker 2: of do what they're told and let them think for

233
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 2: them kind of thing. This is pervasive. Now. It's interesting.

234
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,160
Speaker 2: I happen to be teaching the Sunday school class yesterday

235
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:24,160
Speaker 2: and we were doing the New Testament survey. But a

236
00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,800
Speaker 2: question from the Old Testament came up, and a fellow,

237
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,680
Speaker 2: you know fairly well, Dan Block, happens to be in

238
00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,000
Speaker 2: my Sunday school class. So anytime an Old Testament question

239
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,760
Speaker 2: comes up, or as he calls it, a purchase, yes,

240
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 2: I always, I always defer to doctor Block. You're you're

241
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,640
Speaker 2: you know, our listeners can look up doctor Block and

242
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,360
Speaker 2: see these profiled old Testaments.

243
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:47,720
Speaker 1: It's not a bad move at all.

244
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no, so. But he made a comment

245
00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:58,080
Speaker 2: in passing that I thought, Aha. He said, in the

246
00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:04,960
Speaker 2: ancient world, the king is responsible for the religious He

247
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,080
Speaker 2: used the word cult. What he meant by that is

248
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:14,240
Speaker 2: the religious ritual, liturgy, et cetera, et cetera. The king

249
00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:22,040
Speaker 2: is responsible that's still the case in the Middle Ages.

250
00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:31,480
Speaker 2: The government is responsible to protect, not to be the church,

251
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 2: but to protect the church and to ensure the church

252
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,760
Speaker 2: has everything that it needs to do its job, because,

253
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:51,119
Speaker 2: as we've mentioned before, the society's viability is dependent on

254
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 2: its relationship to God. To the extent that God is

255
00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:01,080
Speaker 2: pleased with the society, the society will continue to function.

256
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:06,840
Speaker 2: And God is pleased with the society when they behave

257
00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,959
Speaker 2: according to His rules. Whose job is that, That's the

258
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:17,480
Speaker 2: church's job. So it's the job of the state to

259
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:25,480
Speaker 2: make sure the church has free reign to keep God happy.

260
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,920
Speaker 2: Maybe that'll help us understand how deeply wound religion is

261
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:37,520
Speaker 2: in the society. This is not a secular state. This

262
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:44,600
Speaker 2: is Christian Europe, this is Christendom. This is the Holy

263
00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:50,560
Speaker 2: Roman Empire that Luther is functioning in. So you know,

264
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,840
Speaker 2: we've gone over this before, but as modern secular people,

265
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,600
Speaker 2: it's very hard for us to understand it. So it's

266
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 2: worth us repeating this again. This is all in the water,

267
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 2: and it's all part of a world that Luther is

268
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:11,399
Speaker 2: functioning in. It's very hard for us to understand.

269
00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,919
Speaker 1: It is really interesting though, I think that Luther you know,

270
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,520
Speaker 1: to your point, a lot of times when people make

271
00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,200
Speaker 1: a vow, they don't actually follow through with it, right.

272
00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 1: The vow in Foxhoule is really just well I didn't

273
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,560
Speaker 1: really mean that, God, but thanks for getting me out

274
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:33,760
Speaker 1: of there. Now I'll take my life back. But Luther,

275
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:39,240
Speaker 1: I think him keeping his vow moving toward the Augustinian Monastery,

276
00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,120
Speaker 1: spending that time of you know, quote unquote testing so

277
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,280
Speaker 1: that they are sure that he's ready to make this commitment,

278
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,919
Speaker 1: which was not trivial. You know, they're they're sort of

279
00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,879
Speaker 1: for the folks. I'll explain it in the way that

280
00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,879
Speaker 1: I think about it. It's almost like you're in a

281
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:58,639
Speaker 1: holding tank, man, You're you're sort of, you know, an

282
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 1: anti chamber waiting to get into the real party. And

283
00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 1: Luther stuck in this ante chamber for longer than most.

284
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,960
Speaker 1: And they come back and they decide and they ask him,

285
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,640
Speaker 1: are you still ready to come in? And he's like, yeah,

286
00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 1: I really like to come in. And so he's got

287
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:19,240
Speaker 1: this sort of interesting disposition about him that you called it,

288
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 1: I think, a sensitive, more sensitive conscience than many. Yes,

289
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 1: but he's got this real disposition about him that lends

290
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,360
Speaker 1: itself to I would say not even to the religious

291
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 1: life of the time, but almost to recognizing the faults

292
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 1: of the religious system at the time.

293
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:47,880
Speaker 2: Yes, Luther, this is going to sound strange, but Luther,

294
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:53,160
Speaker 2: even in that context, in that context, takes God more

295
00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,840
Speaker 2: seriously than most. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's going

296
00:20:57,920 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 2: to be one of the issues. They're going to tell him,

297
00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 2: you're taking this too seriously. And he's fair, you out

298
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:05,720
Speaker 2: of your mind? Who you know what person in the

299
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 2: right mind says you take You're you're serious about eternal damnation?

300
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 1: Right?

301
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 2: This is not a This is not a lie. A

302
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,640
Speaker 2: you know, are the Bears going to win the playoffs? Yeah,

303
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 2: we're talking about eternal damnation here. And they're saying, well,

304
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:28,080
Speaker 2: you know, relax, What do you mean relax? You're working,

305
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 2: You're obsessed with this? Yeah, why wouldn't I be? So

306
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 2: it is fair to note that he is even beyond

307
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,360
Speaker 2: what normal people are in that in that context. But

308
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,920
Speaker 2: but as a culture as a whole, they are way

309
00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 2: more oriented that way than we are.

310
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,640
Speaker 1: Right, the air they breathe is far more religious than

311
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,639
Speaker 1: the air we breathe. It's I like the way Charles

312
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 1: Taylor talks about this. He says, you know, secular society

313
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,920
Speaker 1: is really just a society that makes it more difficult

314
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,360
Speaker 1: for us to have faith in the divine. It's a paraphrase,

315
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 1: but the general idea is that in secular societies, it's

316
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 1: not like we've abandoned any notion of the sacred. It's

317
00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 1: just that believing those things becomes more and more difficult

318
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 1: within a secular society, whereas in the medieval period that

319
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 1: we're talking about, these things aren't questioned. The assumption is

320
00:22:31,119 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: that they're there. It's not one option among many, it's

321
00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 1: this is the way the world works, and so they're

322
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,760
Speaker 1: just sort of, you know, they're in the water and

323
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 1: it's wet, you know, kind of thing. So the vowel

324
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 1: he makes this valley joins the Augustinian monastery at Air

325
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 1: for this is around what fifteen oh five is somewhere

326
00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: in that range, and then ultimately he's going to be

327
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 1: at that monastery for how many years? Do you have

328
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 1: any idea?

329
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: I have? Ten? Fifteen? I mean, I'd have to look.

330
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: He goes to Wittenbergen fifteen seventeen, I think, and.

331
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: So then he's there before fifteen seventeen, isn't he Hold on, let.

332
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: Me double check Okay, to get our dates right. Yeah,

333
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 1: we got our places right, but the dates are always

334
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: hard for me.

335
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,719
Speaker 2: It's the same with me. I don't have it on

336
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 2: this sheet. You want to pause this for a second.

337
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: No, it's all right. Well, we can always clarify it later.

338
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: But the point is he's he's there long enough to

339
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,000
Speaker 1: provide to develop a sufficient degree of training because he

340
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:48,120
Speaker 1: doesn't have his degree in this. And I'm assuming maybe

341
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: I'm assuming too much, but when they go to these monasteries,

342
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 1: I mean they are learning theology. They're not just practicing

343
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:03,400
Speaker 1: the faith, they're learning theology h in order to do something.

344
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: Uh there, Okay. Their daily life is defined by the

345
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: responsibilities of prayer, taking care of the the house, you know. Okay,

346
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 2: somebody's got to grow potatoes, somebody's got to the roof,

347
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 2: somebody's gotta But they have regulated prayer and and depending

348
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:37,920
Speaker 2: on the order, they have other responsibilities which may involve, uh,

349
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 2: taking care of some of them. For example, this one isn't,

350
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 2: but there were hospital orders, other kinds of things. This

351
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: order is primarily prayer. Scripture. Uh, there would have been

352
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:59,080
Speaker 2: reading of scripture, reading of Augustine. There would have been

353
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: copying manuscripts, studying that sort of stuff, so and begging.

354
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: When he's making that transition though, from the Augustinian Monastery

355
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 1: to Wittenberg, because he does go from Airfort to Wittenberg.

356
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: That is correct. And there he goes. In Wittenberg, he

357
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: goes to do what we would call a doctoral work.

358
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 2: He goes to study sacred scripture, and he does his

359
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 2: doctorate at the at a new university, the University of Wittenberg.

360
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:41,680
Speaker 2: And there he is working through the scriptures and I'm

361
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 2: trying to get I'm still working to find this date

362
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 2: here for Luther, but we'll find it at some point.

363
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 2: But it's there that he is. It's there that he is. Well,

364
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 2: let me back it up. Why does he go to

365
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 2: vitten He goes to Wittenberg because he has a confessor,

366
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: or what we would use as a mentor. His name

367
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: is Jova von Stalpitz, and von Stalpez is deeply concerned

368
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 2: about this young fellow because he is just literally beating

369
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: himself to death. He is constantly praying for hours. He

370
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:40,680
Speaker 2: is he goes to confession for all kinds of Okay, well,

371
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 2: it looks like he goes. I found this, So let

372
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: me interrupt this year around fifteen twelve, he goes to Wittenberg.

373
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 2: That looks like twelve, ok. And what's happening James is

374
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 2: he is. He goes in hoping to find peace with God.

375
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 2: It doesn't get better, It gets worse. It gets worse

376
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 2: because all the things that are supposed to make it

377
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 2: better aren't working. So, for example, just a couple illustrations,

378
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 2: he finds that he is increasingly driven by this sense

379
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 2: of what he calls the curve of the self into

380
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 2: the selfishness. He wants to love God purely and simply

381
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: because of who God is. What he finds out is

382
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: he only can love God in terms of what God

383
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: will do for him. So it's not a disinterested love.

384
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 2: It's a self interested lofe. I eat what's in it

385
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 2: for me? Yeah? Yeah, And he's trying to break this.

386
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 2: So what does he do. Well, he starts to beat himself.

387
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 2: He literally goes into you know, he'll beat him. They

388
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: find him. He's beating himself to a pulp. He starves himself,

389
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 2: he destroys his gi track. He just he's starving himself

390
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: and they're living on a starvation diet anyway. Yeah, and

391
00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 2: he's going to confession, and he's going to confession, and

392
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: at one point he's in confession for eight hours and

393
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 2: he's driving vun stop. It's nuts because here, here's how

394
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 2: Luther's processing this. Here's the law, Love the Lord your

395
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 2: God with all your heart's soul, mind and strength. And

396
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 2: the second is under the first, love your neighbor as yourself. Okay,

397
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: if you really believe that, if that's the minimum, how

398
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 2: long are you going to be in confession?

399
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he's you know, what he's trying to do

400
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 3: is confess all this stuff and then he leaves and he, oh,

401
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: I forgot one thing, and so this thing is It's like,

402
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 3: the best way I can illustrate it is when you

403
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 3: get stuck in the mud or stuck in snow.

404
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 2: And you just keep on pushing harder on the gas pedal,

405
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 2: and all it does is make the car sink deeper.

406
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 2: And you just keep pushing harder and harder, and the

407
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: smoke is flying off the tires and the car is

408
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: sinking and sinking and sinking and sinking, and you just

409
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: keep pushing harder and harder on the gas pedal. That's

410
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 2: what's happening. James and von Stoppus finally says, I got

411
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: to find some way to break this. So first he

412
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 2: sends him to Row. We can talk about that at

413
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 2: some other point, but then he eventually sends him to Wittenberg.

414
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: Let's pause there because I think in the next episode

415
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: of the next segment, what we want to really talk

416
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: about is how I'm interested to find out is there

417
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: a mismatch between the practices that were happening in the

418
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: Augustinian monastery and some of the teachings that we'd find

419
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 1: in Augustine. So you know, I've read some Augustine you

420
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: don't really see. Yes, you see some asceticism that was

421
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: somewhat common in the day anyway, you still see it

422
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 1: today in some theological work, But it wasn't this sort

423
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: of amped up sort of asceticism that Luther is practicing,

424
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: and it seems to even be practiced within the monastery,

425
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: And so I kind of want to talk a little

426
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: bit about that, And then I do want to talk

427
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: about this sort of contrast between what he finds in

428
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: Rome and what he finds in Wittenburg. And so why

429
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: don't we come back and talk about that next segment? Great,

430
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: all right, everybody, Well, Catchen just a minute on the

431
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: next segment of Thinking Christian. I just want to take

432
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: a second to thank the team at Life Audio for

433
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If

434
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of

435
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows

436
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.