1 00:00:03,300 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: This particular Mecha Pact throws a little bit of a 2 00:00:06,780 --> 00:00:09,410 Speaker 1: pebble in the shoe. Like, you know, what does this mean? 3 00:00:09,530 --> 00:00:12,350 Speaker 1: How long will it last? It could be a problem. 4 00:00:13,570 --> 00:00:15,730 Speaker 1: And it could mean that Gog and Magog, that war is, 5 00:00:16,310 --> 00:00:19,980 Speaker 1: you know, dozens or hundreds of years away. But it 6 00:00:20,020 --> 00:00:27,710 Speaker 1: might just be a blip that is resolved soon. Isn't 7 00:00:27,770 --> 00:00:30,820 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia supposed to make peace with Israel? Isn't it 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: supposed to become part of the Abraham Accords with the 9 00:00:33,220 --> 00:00:37,900 Speaker 1: Jewish state? Why has Saudi Arabia just agreed to form 10 00:00:37,940 --> 00:00:43,030 Speaker 1: an alliance, a military and strategic alliance? With Pakistan, a 11 00:00:43,130 --> 00:00:48,530 Speaker 1: radical Islamist country with nuclear weapons that once harbored Osama 12 00:00:48,550 --> 00:00:52,130 Speaker 1: bin Laden, and why did the deal, the alliance include 13 00:00:52,229 --> 00:00:59,180 Speaker 1: Turkey with its radical, foaming at the mouth, radical Islamist leader, 14 00:00:59,300 --> 00:01:04,830 Speaker 1: Recep Erdogan, who threatens to invade Israel? and sees Jerusalem 15 00:01:05,250 --> 00:01:09,130 Speaker 1: and is calling Israeli leaders Nazis that are worse than Hitler. Hi, 16 00:01:09,790 --> 00:01:12,900 Speaker 1: this is Joel Rosenberg along with Lynn Rosenberg. Welcome to 17 00:01:13,060 --> 00:01:16,740 Speaker 1: Inside the Epicenter, the podcast of The Joshua Fund, a 18 00:01:16,780 --> 00:01:20,340 Speaker 1: ministry to bless Israel and her neighbors. in the name 19 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,660 Speaker 1: of Jesus, according to the Abrahamic covenant, Genesis 12, 1 20 00:01:23,660 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: through 3, in which, among other things, God says he 21 00:01:26,380 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: will bless those who bless Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, descendants, the 22 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: nation of Israel, as well as warning that he will 23 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,500 Speaker 1: curse those who curse Israel and the Jewish people. This 24 00:01:38,610 --> 00:01:42,650 Speaker 1: podcast is part of the educational mission of the Joshua Fund. 25 00:01:42,670 --> 00:01:45,789 Speaker 1: We do a lot of different things, humanitarian relief, investing 26 00:01:45,810 --> 00:01:48,070 Speaker 1: in the church and Israel among the Palestinians and throughout 27 00:01:48,110 --> 00:01:51,180 Speaker 1: the Arab and Muslim world, including Iran, but we are 28 00:01:51,220 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: also a ministry trying to help people understand what in 29 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:57,330 Speaker 1: the world is going on inside the epicenter, how should 30 00:01:57,350 --> 00:02:00,750 Speaker 1: we pray, and what actions should we take to make 31 00:02:00,790 --> 00:02:04,270 Speaker 1: a difference and be a blessing. Lynn, so much going 32 00:02:04,430 --> 00:02:06,870 Speaker 1: on here in the region, and we've been talking so 33 00:02:06,910 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: much about what's happening in Iran and the Gulf, and, 34 00:02:11,260 --> 00:02:15,350 Speaker 1: you know, we had 20 missiles fired by Iran at 35 00:02:15,450 --> 00:02:18,660 Speaker 1: Jordan the other day. 18 of them were shot down. Fortunately, 36 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:22,889 Speaker 1: two of them landed in desert areas uninhabited. The United 37 00:02:22,910 --> 00:02:26,350 Speaker 1: States is sinking ships of Iran in the Gulf because 38 00:02:26,430 --> 00:02:30,310 Speaker 1: Iran is attacking tankers, oil tankers. The price of oil 39 00:02:30,350 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: has shot up around $ 100. There's still a lot going 40 00:02:34,410 --> 00:02:36,620 Speaker 1: on and that war is not done. But there are 41 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:40,420 Speaker 1: new complicators to all of it. It's good to see you. 42 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: I mean, not good to see you. I mean, here 43 00:02:41,980 --> 00:02:45,620 Speaker 1: we are. And a lot of interesting things going on 44 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,550 Speaker 1: right now. Where do you even want to begin and 45 00:02:48,630 --> 00:02:49,430 Speaker 1: how should we proceed? 46 00:02:51,050 --> 00:02:53,790 Speaker 2: Well, I feel like what I want to do today 47 00:02:53,810 --> 00:02:56,010 Speaker 2: is just ask you a ton of questions. I feel 48 00:02:56,050 --> 00:03:00,250 Speaker 2: like this is an issue that is not very many 49 00:03:00,290 --> 00:03:02,270 Speaker 2: places to read about. I haven't heard about it. It's 50 00:03:02,310 --> 00:03:06,109 Speaker 2: not on the lips of people on the streets. It's 51 00:03:06,210 --> 00:03:08,770 Speaker 2: something that when I first heard about it, I said, 52 00:03:09,310 --> 00:03:10,780 Speaker 2: where did this come from? It feels like it just 53 00:03:10,790 --> 00:03:14,020 Speaker 2: came from out of the blue. Saudi Arabia and Turkey 54 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:18,260 Speaker 2: are making a pact. What does this mean? Ever since 55 00:03:18,340 --> 00:03:22,100 Speaker 2: October 7th, there's been sort of this realignment in some 56 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,020 Speaker 2: ways here in the Middle East where people are realizing 57 00:03:26,060 --> 00:03:29,380 Speaker 2: more and more, I mean, moderate Arab countries, allies of 58 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,740 Speaker 2: the United States have realized, you know, Israel is not 59 00:03:32,780 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: the enemy. Iran is the enemy. The Houthis are the enemy. 60 00:03:35,620 --> 00:03:39,890 Speaker 2: Radical Islamic extremism is the enemy. And there became sort 61 00:03:39,910 --> 00:03:43,650 Speaker 2: of this realignment post-October 7th. Let's see how we can 62 00:03:43,690 --> 00:03:46,350 Speaker 2: work together. How, you know, we have, of course, even 63 00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:49,100 Speaker 2: before that, we had the Abraham Accords and We've talked 64 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: about how there was this sense of optimism that we're 65 00:03:53,020 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: sort of heading towards this place of peace and of 66 00:03:56,540 --> 00:04:01,110 Speaker 2: cooperation in this area and being sort of aligned against Iran. 67 00:04:01,910 --> 00:04:06,100 Speaker 2: The problem is that Turkey's not really... been a part 68 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: of that friendly, friendly feeling world. And so to think 69 00:04:12,700 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 2: that Saudi Arabia, which seemed on the cusp of making 70 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:19,420 Speaker 2: peace with Israel, or at least normalization with Israel relationship, 71 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:25,190 Speaker 2: now suddenly they're making a deal with Pakistan, a nuclear country, 72 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:30,820 Speaker 2: and Turkey, a NATO country, but which is quite unfriendly 73 00:04:31,020 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 2: to the, definitely toward Israel, toward the Jewish people. So 74 00:04:34,620 --> 00:04:36,500 Speaker 2: this feels like it just came from out of the blue. 75 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,350 Speaker 2: And I don't know, why now? Why did the Saudis 76 00:04:39,450 --> 00:04:42,230 Speaker 2: do this? So these are some of my questions. I 77 00:04:42,270 --> 00:04:44,650 Speaker 2: want to know what you can tell us about it. 78 00:04:45,150 --> 00:04:47,589 Speaker 1: Sure. Sure. You're right. I don't think it's cut through 79 00:04:47,730 --> 00:04:52,020 Speaker 1: into American media much. It was It became a story 80 00:04:52,060 --> 00:04:55,140 Speaker 1: here in early August. It was actually August 7th in 81 00:04:55,220 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: which Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Pakistan signed this joint defense pact, 82 00:05:01,220 --> 00:05:07,030 Speaker 1: this defense alliance, which would basically create an Islamic NATO. Meaning, 83 00:05:07,230 --> 00:05:11,089 Speaker 1: in theory, the document of the Mecca Pact says that 84 00:05:11,650 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: if one of these countries is attacked, then they'll all– 85 00:05:15,290 --> 00:05:17,930 Speaker 1: treat it as an attack against themselves, and they'll all 86 00:05:17,990 --> 00:05:20,810 Speaker 1: come to each other's aid. And if that were the case, 87 00:05:21,290 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: then the question would be, why are these countries forming together? 88 00:05:25,660 --> 00:05:29,060 Speaker 1: Pakistan is not Arab, but it is Muslim. Turkey is 89 00:05:29,100 --> 00:05:32,099 Speaker 1: not Arab, but it is Muslim. Saudi Arabia, of course, 90 00:05:32,380 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: is Arab. It's right in the name, Arabia. 91 00:05:36,060 --> 00:05:38,900 Speaker 2: It's the origin of the word Arabia. 92 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,910 Speaker 1: Right. It's the epicenter of Islam from Pakistan. You know, 93 00:05:41,930 --> 00:05:44,589 Speaker 1: the custodian of the two holy mosques, as they say, 94 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,740 Speaker 1: in Mecca and Medina. So it seemed odd for those 95 00:05:49,779 --> 00:05:53,420 Speaker 1: who are paying attention. And for those Christians who did 96 00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:57,020 Speaker 1: notice and others who noticed in the States, it felt 97 00:05:57,180 --> 00:06:01,180 Speaker 1: a bit unnerving. That was the initial feeling here in Israel, like, whoa, whoa, 98 00:06:01,620 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: I thought the Saudis were heading towards us. So let 99 00:06:04,740 --> 00:06:08,260 Speaker 1: me say a couple of things. First, it is important 100 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,460 Speaker 1: to talk about how much of a problem Turkey is 101 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,190 Speaker 1: becoming under its leader, Recep Erdogan. But first, I want 102 00:06:15,210 --> 00:06:18,330 Speaker 1: to actually disabuse the notion that this is probably going 103 00:06:18,350 --> 00:06:21,210 Speaker 1: to be a major threat. Is there a risk? Yes, 104 00:06:21,230 --> 00:06:23,330 Speaker 1: there's a risk. But as I've looked at it more 105 00:06:23,410 --> 00:06:26,419 Speaker 1: carefully over the last month or so, because there's been 106 00:06:26,450 --> 00:06:29,210 Speaker 1: so much else to talk about, We're only now getting 107 00:06:29,290 --> 00:06:32,710 Speaker 1: to it. A couple things have happened. First, Saudi Arabia 108 00:06:32,750 --> 00:06:37,210 Speaker 1: was just attacked in the last few days by the Houthis, 109 00:06:37,270 --> 00:06:44,260 Speaker 1: the radical Islamist, Iranian-backed terrorists based in Yemen. And Saudi 110 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: Arabia asked for the United States to help them bomb 111 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 1: the Houthi rebels. And the United States under President Trump said, no, 112 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:53,660 Speaker 1: this is really for you to take care of. I 113 00:06:53,660 --> 00:06:55,820 Speaker 1: don't want to get into a new thing. But look 114 00:06:55,860 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: who isn't getting involved. Turkey's not sending any air forces 115 00:06:59,420 --> 00:07:02,500 Speaker 1: or troops to get involved against the Houthis, and neither 116 00:07:02,540 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: is Pakistan. Pakistan actually has some forces on the ground 117 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,070 Speaker 1: in Saudi Arabia, but they seem symbolic. So there is 118 00:07:10,110 --> 00:07:13,870 Speaker 1: a history, Lynn, we should just share with the audience 119 00:07:13,890 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: that The region makes all kinds of deals and pacts, 120 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,790 Speaker 1: and you have to always take them seriously, but with 121 00:07:21,830 --> 00:07:25,230 Speaker 1: a bit of caution that sometimes it's not worth the 122 00:07:25,270 --> 00:07:27,610 Speaker 1: paper it's written on. I'm not saying it won't be. 123 00:07:27,750 --> 00:07:30,990 Speaker 1: I'm not saying it couldn't emerge as something quite nefarious 124 00:07:31,130 --> 00:07:34,900 Speaker 1: and troubling, meaning that Saudi Arabia has no intention to 125 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,700 Speaker 1: make peace and normalize with Israel, but is in fact 126 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: moving towards the dark side, towards countries and towards alliances 127 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:46,690 Speaker 1: that are hostile to our interests. I'm not sure that's 128 00:07:46,710 --> 00:07:49,740 Speaker 1: really the case at the moment. I think where we're 129 00:07:49,750 --> 00:07:52,850 Speaker 1: going to be in another year or two I think 130 00:07:52,930 --> 00:07:55,510 Speaker 1: that the Iranian regime is going to be a smoldering 131 00:07:55,550 --> 00:07:58,950 Speaker 1: wreckage if it even survives. But I don't think it's 132 00:07:58,970 --> 00:08:01,850 Speaker 1: going to be a shadow of its former self. I 133 00:08:01,850 --> 00:08:04,940 Speaker 1: think that's true of Hezbollah, not completely out of it, 134 00:08:05,050 --> 00:08:08,730 Speaker 1: but mostly shattered and all of its top leadership killed, right? 135 00:08:09,070 --> 00:08:14,410 Speaker 1: Same thing with Hamas. They've survived. They're operating in about 40% 136 00:08:14,410 --> 00:08:17,610 Speaker 1: of Gaza, but they hardly have any weapons. They're not 137 00:08:17,670 --> 00:08:20,310 Speaker 1: able to attack Israel right now. They They're living in 138 00:08:20,330 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: tunnels underground. They're under tremendous pressure. Nobody's giving them any money. 139 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,740 Speaker 1: So I think where we're going to be in another 140 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 1: year or two, I don't want to be too precise, 141 00:08:30,140 --> 00:08:33,410 Speaker 1: is that Israel is going to be the dominant military 142 00:08:33,429 --> 00:08:36,670 Speaker 1: and political and economic power in the region. I think 143 00:08:36,690 --> 00:08:40,500 Speaker 1: that the Saudis and at some point the Lebanese, maybe 144 00:08:40,550 --> 00:08:45,110 Speaker 1: even the Syrians, maybe Kuwait, maybe Syria, maybe Oman, others 145 00:08:45,230 --> 00:08:48,150 Speaker 1: will be moving to Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in 146 00:08:48,170 --> 00:08:49,450 Speaker 1: the world. I think they're all going to be coming 147 00:08:49,550 --> 00:08:54,110 Speaker 1: towards Israel to sign Abraham Accords deals. So I think 148 00:08:54,870 --> 00:08:58,650 Speaker 1: in the end, this probably won't mean that much, but 149 00:08:58,870 --> 00:09:00,270 Speaker 1: we do have to keep a close eye on it. 150 00:09:00,450 --> 00:09:03,010 Speaker 1: And their main reason is not because of Saudi. You 151 00:09:03,050 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: and I have met with Saudi officials at very senior levels, 152 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: including recently, you know, over the summer. We are not 153 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,579 Speaker 1: getting any signals, right, that the Saudis don't want to 154 00:09:12,620 --> 00:09:15,860 Speaker 1: make peace. They're talking about when and how, and they 155 00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:19,350 Speaker 1: want something good for the Palestinians as part of the deal. 156 00:09:20,170 --> 00:09:24,829 Speaker 1: Turkey hates Israel. That's not the case of the Saudi leadership. 157 00:09:25,090 --> 00:09:27,849 Speaker 1: Turkish President Erdogan is a serious problem, and he also 158 00:09:27,890 --> 00:09:31,450 Speaker 1: has the biggest army in Europe. Right. 159 00:09:31,490 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 2: That's something to take note of is just if you 160 00:09:34,179 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 2: look at those three countries and the armies of these 161 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 2: three countries, Altogether, it's about 1.4 million active troops, right? 162 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:48,850 Speaker 2: 3,400 aircraft, 6,000 tanks, 340 or more naval assets, and 163 00:09:48,870 --> 00:09:53,410 Speaker 2: a combined defense budget of more than $ 124 billion. So 164 00:09:53,450 --> 00:09:56,970 Speaker 2: this is not an insignificant power. You know, in Turkey 165 00:09:56,990 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 2: in particular, being a NATO official, ally has equipment that 166 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:04,959 Speaker 2: is from part of the West. I mean, it's been 167 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 2: trained by the West. It's aligned with the West in 168 00:10:09,250 --> 00:10:12,910 Speaker 2: that sense. And yet that could be used. I mean, 169 00:10:12,950 --> 00:10:15,750 Speaker 2: that's been a big fear for a while, you know, 170 00:10:15,850 --> 00:10:18,090 Speaker 2: as Erdogan is sort of turned away from the West. 171 00:10:18,610 --> 00:10:23,230 Speaker 2: rhetorically and how he's acting and how he's behaving, it 172 00:10:23,270 --> 00:10:27,550 Speaker 2: doesn't seem like he's a friendly member of NATO either. 173 00:10:28,190 --> 00:10:32,170 Speaker 1: No, he's definitely not. But President Trump seems to be 174 00:10:32,370 --> 00:10:36,790 Speaker 1: operating with President Erdogan of Turkey, sort of, you know, 175 00:10:36,830 --> 00:10:40,189 Speaker 1: one of the lines from the Godfather movie, keep your 176 00:10:40,250 --> 00:10:44,380 Speaker 1: friends close and keep your enemies closer. I wouldn't say 177 00:10:44,390 --> 00:10:49,380 Speaker 1: that President Trump sees Turkey as an enemy. And Israel 178 00:10:49,390 --> 00:10:54,780 Speaker 1: definitely does. And because Erdogan is calling our leadership Nazis, 179 00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:59,620 Speaker 1: that we're running Nazi camps, that we're committing war crimes 180 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,780 Speaker 1: and genocide in Gaza that are worse than the Nazis, 181 00:11:02,860 --> 00:11:06,219 Speaker 1: which is insane. But that's what he's saying. He's saying 182 00:11:06,260 --> 00:11:08,939 Speaker 1: he's going to invade Israel in order to defend the 183 00:11:08,980 --> 00:11:12,179 Speaker 1: Palestinians of Gaza, that he's going to take over Jerusalem. 184 00:11:12,220 --> 00:11:16,309 Speaker 1: And he says, Jerusalem is ours. meaning that under the 185 00:11:16,309 --> 00:11:19,290 Speaker 1: 800 or 900 years that the Ottoman Empire, based out 186 00:11:19,330 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 1: of what is now Istanbul, used to be Constantinople, the 187 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,500 Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire, which was in charge of the entire region, 188 00:11:26,540 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: including what is Israel, you know, yeah, the Ottomans controlled Jerusalem. 189 00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 1: And so Erdogan, who's sort of a would-be sultan of 190 00:11:35,750 --> 00:11:39,089 Speaker 1: a neo-Ottoman empire, he wants to see that empire rise. 191 00:11:39,429 --> 00:11:43,189 Speaker 1: He wants to be the leader of all Sunni radical Islamism. 192 00:11:44,070 --> 00:11:47,090 Speaker 1: where Iran is sort of the leader of the radical 193 00:11:47,210 --> 00:11:51,770 Speaker 1: and apocalyptic Shia Muslims. You know, Erdogan wants to be 194 00:11:51,790 --> 00:11:55,670 Speaker 1: the head of the radical Islamist Sunni Muslims. And so, 195 00:11:56,370 --> 00:11:59,050 Speaker 1: you know, he welcomes Hamas and he embraces them and 196 00:11:59,090 --> 00:12:03,060 Speaker 1: he says they're not a terrorist group and we endorse 197 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,380 Speaker 1: them and we support them. And all these things are 198 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 1: so hostile to Israel that Israel knows that Turkey is 199 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,750 Speaker 1: emerging as an enemy. President Trump doesn't see it. So 200 00:12:12,850 --> 00:12:16,190 Speaker 1: to sort of adapt the godfather phrase, maybe keep your 201 00:12:16,230 --> 00:12:22,449 Speaker 1: friends close and your frenemies closer, meaning Trump doesn't want 202 00:12:22,470 --> 00:12:25,740 Speaker 1: to have a whole new problem erupt. He's trying to 203 00:12:25,790 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 1: keep Turkey close and not let it get pushed into 204 00:12:31,660 --> 00:12:37,170 Speaker 1: the full on Iranian-Russian conflict. But at some point, that's 205 00:12:37,210 --> 00:12:39,069 Speaker 1: what's going to happen. Bible prophecy talks about it. I 206 00:12:39,090 --> 00:12:41,230 Speaker 1: think we'll talk about that maybe in the second half 207 00:12:41,670 --> 00:12:45,569 Speaker 1: of the podcast. But even a few months ago, President 208 00:12:45,650 --> 00:12:50,670 Speaker 1: Erdogan said publicly that we need Russia and Iran and 209 00:12:50,790 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: Syria to join with Turkey in an alliance to be 210 00:12:55,660 --> 00:13:00,099 Speaker 1: against Israel. That is very much like the flavor of 211 00:13:00,179 --> 00:13:04,590 Speaker 1: Ezekiel 38 and 39. Pakistan, I don't think, is part 212 00:13:04,610 --> 00:13:08,830 Speaker 1: of that alliance. But those are the dynamics here. And 213 00:13:08,870 --> 00:13:12,870 Speaker 1: it's why we can't take this lightly. But I think 214 00:13:12,890 --> 00:13:15,790 Speaker 1: we also have to have some caution and not be 215 00:13:16,010 --> 00:13:19,630 Speaker 1: alarmist about it. We've seen a lot of these types 216 00:13:19,690 --> 00:13:23,670 Speaker 1: of deals throughout history, in recent history, in the history 217 00:13:23,690 --> 00:13:27,290 Speaker 1: of the last 50 or 60 years, my lifetime. And often, 218 00:13:27,980 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 1: they mean nothing. By the way, I am using my Saudi... 219 00:13:32,730 --> 00:13:37,810 Speaker 1: arabia uh starbucks mug as part of this um just 220 00:13:37,990 --> 00:13:39,989 Speaker 1: uh just thought that would be the right uh mug 221 00:13:40,010 --> 00:13:41,770 Speaker 1: to use during this podcast. 222 00:13:43,429 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: Yeah it's sad because turkey what a beautiful country what 223 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:53,119 Speaker 2: an amazing culture great cuisine beautiful places seven churches of 224 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,780 Speaker 2: revelation i mean it's an amazing place and And it 225 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 2: was very friendly for a long time for Israelis. I 226 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,179 Speaker 2: remember the first time that we ever went to Turkey 227 00:14:01,250 --> 00:14:04,189 Speaker 2: with our kids for a conference in front of our hotel, 228 00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:06,329 Speaker 2: the flags, there was an American flag, there was an 229 00:14:06,370 --> 00:14:09,330 Speaker 2: Israeli flag, there were flags from Italy and other places 230 00:14:09,410 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 2: as well, but it felt so safe. But it's really 231 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: changed over the years and has become something that I 232 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:19,780 Speaker 2: think security analysts and political leaders here in the region 233 00:14:20,020 --> 00:14:20,620 Speaker 2: worry about. 234 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,090 Speaker 1: And I think that change is, you're right, it is 235 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,190 Speaker 1: a huge change. And that's very important to point out 236 00:14:27,610 --> 00:14:32,410 Speaker 1: that Turkey was the seat or the capital of the 237 00:14:32,610 --> 00:14:37,570 Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire. But when the Ottoman Empire was defeated by 238 00:14:37,610 --> 00:14:40,450 Speaker 1: the British, among others, but the British were the main 239 00:14:40,630 --> 00:14:46,330 Speaker 1: force fighting against the Ottoman Empire, famously depicted in the 240 00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:51,250 Speaker 1: Academy Award winning movie, Lawrence of Arabia, where the British 241 00:14:51,370 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: officer T.E. Lawrence goes into Arabia and he finds a 242 00:14:56,820 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: Sheikh who's very influential, very powerful with a large army. Um, 243 00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: but he's living under the Turkish occupation, uh, the Turkish empire, 244 00:15:06,260 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: the Ottoman empire, and he doesn't want to be. So T.E. 245 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,739 Speaker 1: Lawrence says, says to him, look, as a representative of 246 00:15:12,780 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: the British government, I'll tell you, I'll make you an offer, 247 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: an offer you can't refuse to continue with our godfather theme, 248 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:23,109 Speaker 1: I guess. Um, If you will help the British overthrow 249 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:29,940 Speaker 1: the Ottoman power here, we will give you three kingdoms. And, 250 00:15:30,620 --> 00:15:34,420 Speaker 1: you know, the sheikh was like, OK. And so the sheikh. 251 00:15:35,470 --> 00:15:40,220 Speaker 1: And T.E. Lawrence decide to ride their army on horseback 252 00:15:40,620 --> 00:15:45,420 Speaker 1: across the blistering, you know, blast oven of a desert 253 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,130 Speaker 1: that no one has ever crossed to arrive at Aqaba, 254 00:15:49,490 --> 00:15:52,650 Speaker 1: the southern port in what we now call the Kingdom 255 00:15:52,690 --> 00:15:54,870 Speaker 1: of Jordan. But now at the time it was, you know, 256 00:15:54,950 --> 00:15:57,300 Speaker 1: not part of it was no country of Jordan. And 257 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,610 Speaker 1: they come in from the back, from the east. And 258 00:16:01,810 --> 00:16:07,220 Speaker 1: all the Ottoman big cannons are aimed outward at the 259 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,930 Speaker 1: Red Sea. Why? Because the British are the masters of 260 00:16:10,970 --> 00:16:14,130 Speaker 1: the seas. They've got an incredible navy, right? And if 261 00:16:14,170 --> 00:16:17,210 Speaker 1: British ships come in, they'll blast them out of the water. 262 00:16:17,630 --> 00:16:20,670 Speaker 1: But no one ever imagined– the Turks never imagined, the 263 00:16:20,730 --> 00:16:23,610 Speaker 1: Ottomans never imagined that an army would come from behind 264 00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:27,010 Speaker 1: them because that's not the way the British military operates 265 00:16:27,030 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: or knows how to. And the cannons couldn't be turned. 266 00:16:30,430 --> 00:16:32,830 Speaker 1: So very famously in the movie is depicted what really 267 00:16:32,870 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: did happen. This sheikh, along with T.E. Lawrence, ride in 268 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,460 Speaker 1: and attack this little port town and attack all the 269 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,580 Speaker 1: military installations and they conquer. And having done that, the 270 00:16:43,620 --> 00:16:49,060 Speaker 1: British Navy is allowed to land and troops and other 271 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: equipment come off. And that helps to become– sets in 272 00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:56,980 Speaker 1: motion the unraveling of the Ottoman Empire. And this is– 273 00:16:57,730 --> 00:17:00,630 Speaker 1: what caused the fall of the Ottoman Empire. And when 274 00:17:00,670 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: it fell at the end of World War I, then 275 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: what came up in its place? Well, there was a 276 00:17:06,740 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: man named Kemal Ataturk, which wasn't his actual name, but 277 00:17:11,340 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: it meant the father of Turkey. But that was the 278 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,410 Speaker 1: name he took, Kemal Ataturk. And he founded the new 279 00:17:17,530 --> 00:17:24,409 Speaker 1: modern state of Turkey and he established it as anti-radical, pro-Western. 280 00:17:24,750 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 1: He instituted English language writing, English letters. He made the 281 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,220 Speaker 1: country very moderate in and became friendly to the United States, 282 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,419 Speaker 1: to Britain, to the allies, the Western allies, and to 283 00:17:38,540 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: Israel when Israel was established. And eventually this was the 284 00:17:43,380 --> 00:17:46,959 Speaker 1: low cost, beautiful place that tens and tens of thousands 285 00:17:46,980 --> 00:17:50,419 Speaker 1: of Israelis would go on vacation to Turkey, ourselves included, 286 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:52,830 Speaker 1: though we weren't Israelis yet. And it was just a 287 00:17:52,940 --> 00:17:56,750 Speaker 1: beautiful place. But the rise, the rise of Recep Erdogan, 288 00:17:57,050 --> 00:17:59,590 Speaker 1: a radical Islamist, he gets into power and And he 289 00:17:59,630 --> 00:18:05,389 Speaker 1: starts changing everything against the West and specifically against Israel 290 00:18:05,470 --> 00:18:08,390 Speaker 1: and against Christianity. Wow. 291 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is an amazing history. And to think how 292 00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:14,820 Speaker 2: long the Ottoman Empire ruled over this part of the 293 00:18:14,859 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: world is something I think we don't even realize how 294 00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:21,510 Speaker 2: long they were here in power. Well, we have to 295 00:18:21,550 --> 00:18:23,050 Speaker 2: take a break for now, but I think when we 296 00:18:23,090 --> 00:18:26,310 Speaker 2: come back, we'll talk about, as you mentioned, sort of 297 00:18:26,369 --> 00:18:32,580 Speaker 2: some prophetic implications. Does the Bible... see an alliance between Pakistan, Turkey, 298 00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 2: and Saudi Arabia? Is that something that we can see 299 00:18:36,660 --> 00:18:38,139 Speaker 2: that's going to happen in the end times? 300 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:39,460 Speaker 1: Does the Bible talk about. 301 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,770 Speaker 2: Anything like that? But we will save that until after 302 00:18:42,810 --> 00:18:45,030 Speaker 2: the break, so please join us when we come back. 303 00:18:51,609 --> 00:18:54,250 Speaker 2: Our scripture verses for today come from the book of Daniel, 304 00:18:54,350 --> 00:18:59,290 Speaker 2: chapter 7, verses 13 and 14. In my vision at night, 305 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,350 Speaker 2: I looked and there before me was one like a 306 00:19:02,450 --> 00:19:05,949 Speaker 2: son of man coming with the clouds of heaven. He 307 00:19:06,030 --> 00:19:09,710 Speaker 2: approached the ancient of days and was led into his presence. 308 00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:16,450 Speaker 2: And he was given authority, glory, and sovereign power. All 309 00:19:16,510 --> 00:19:20,430 Speaker 2: nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion 310 00:19:20,510 --> 00:19:23,929 Speaker 2: is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away. And 311 00:19:23,990 --> 00:19:28,780 Speaker 2: his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed. won't 312 00:19:28,820 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 2: you join us in praying for the countries of Turkey 313 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,420 Speaker 2: and Pakistan and Saudi Arabia? We know that countries like 314 00:19:37,780 --> 00:19:41,709 Speaker 2: pieces on a chessboard move around and make different kinds 315 00:19:41,810 --> 00:19:46,370 Speaker 2: of alliances and plans. And yet we know from Daniel 316 00:19:46,470 --> 00:19:48,970 Speaker 2: that the Lord, who is Jesus, the son of man, 317 00:19:49,570 --> 00:19:52,139 Speaker 2: that he is the one with an everlasting kingdom that 318 00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:54,659 Speaker 2: will not pass away. And we would love for the 319 00:19:54,740 --> 00:19:58,209 Speaker 2: people of the epicenter to know that. Would you pray 320 00:19:58,250 --> 00:20:01,369 Speaker 2: that the gospel would go forward more and more, that 321 00:20:01,390 --> 00:20:04,250 Speaker 2: the church would be strengthened here in the epicenter so 322 00:20:04,290 --> 00:20:08,390 Speaker 2: that they might turn people away from political solutions. They're 323 00:20:08,430 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 2: putting their hope there and instead put their hope in 324 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,060 Speaker 2: the Lord Jesus and the ancient of days, the one 325 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 2: who has written this story long before any of us 326 00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:26,090 Speaker 2: walked here on earth, long before the Ottoman Empire even. Joel, 327 00:20:26,350 --> 00:20:30,330 Speaker 2: it's really amazing just to think about all that's happened 328 00:20:30,430 --> 00:20:32,869 Speaker 2: in the recent times. And yet one of the things 329 00:20:32,910 --> 00:20:35,360 Speaker 2: that I just want to say is how important grateful 330 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,220 Speaker 2: we are for quiet. 331 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: It's been quiet. It's been peaceful. 332 00:20:40,140 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 2: We're, as we're recording this, we're in the midst of 333 00:20:42,740 --> 00:20:46,370 Speaker 2: the fall holidays, which are such a joyful time for 334 00:20:46,410 --> 00:20:50,970 Speaker 2: the Jewish people. And we'd love people that are listening 335 00:20:50,990 --> 00:20:53,930 Speaker 2: to this podcast to consider coming on over. You know, 336 00:20:54,010 --> 00:20:57,530 Speaker 2: people are starting to come back little by little and 337 00:20:57,770 --> 00:21:01,580 Speaker 2: the country is open for business and The weather is 338 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,369 Speaker 2: beautiful and we're planning our first trip in a long time. 339 00:21:05,770 --> 00:21:10,030 Speaker 2: We're planning an epicenter tour and epicenter summit in April 340 00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:14,129 Speaker 2: of 2027. It starts at the end of March. And 341 00:21:14,170 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 2: we'd really love you to go to joshuafund.com and read 342 00:21:17,940 --> 00:21:20,790 Speaker 2: all about the tour and join us. We're hoping to 343 00:21:20,830 --> 00:21:24,060 Speaker 2: have about four buses. We're in the midst of filling 344 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,659 Speaker 2: up the third bus at this point. So we do 345 00:21:27,020 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 2: have some room, but not a ton of room. So 346 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,260 Speaker 2: we really would love you to pray about coming with 347 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,510 Speaker 2: your family or with your small group. or as an 348 00:21:35,550 --> 00:21:38,810 Speaker 2: individual and just seeing what God is doing. And a 349 00:21:38,830 --> 00:21:41,780 Speaker 2: Joshua Fund tour is not a regular tour. We do 350 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 2: see all the highlights. We do see all the biblical places. 351 00:21:45,619 --> 00:21:48,820 Speaker 2: And yet we also meet the living stones, the people 352 00:21:48,940 --> 00:21:52,060 Speaker 2: of God who are living here now and who make 353 00:21:52,140 --> 00:21:55,030 Speaker 2: up His church now here in this part of the world. 354 00:21:55,470 --> 00:21:56,870 Speaker 2: And we give you a chance to roll up your 355 00:21:56,890 --> 00:22:00,210 Speaker 2: sleeves and help serve one day. So please go on 356 00:22:00,230 --> 00:22:04,310 Speaker 2: to joshuafund.com and read all about our tour. And included 357 00:22:04,350 --> 00:22:07,100 Speaker 2: in that is going to be a one-day summit where 358 00:22:07,130 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 2: we'll gather together with other believers here in Jerusalem at 359 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 2: a beautiful theater. And we're going to be talking about 360 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,460 Speaker 2: what is God doing? What has He been doing? What 361 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,300 Speaker 2: is He doing? And what is the future? 362 00:22:21,210 --> 00:22:21,690 Speaker 1: Epicenter. 363 00:22:21,710 --> 00:22:25,050 Speaker 2: We're going to have people like Greg Laurie. We're going 364 00:22:25,070 --> 00:22:29,379 Speaker 2: to have President Herzog, the President of Israel, and Graham Lotz, 365 00:22:29,410 --> 00:22:32,860 Speaker 2: a dear friend of ours, and many good speakers, including Joel. 366 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 2: Great speakers, I would say. And that's going to be 367 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,220 Speaker 2: such an amazing time. So pray about it, read about it, 368 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,700 Speaker 2: and think about coming on over and joining us. But 369 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,139 Speaker 2: now I think we should get back to this amazing 370 00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:49,739 Speaker 2: Mecca pact and what does it mean? And we want 371 00:22:49,770 --> 00:22:52,469 Speaker 2: to talk a little bit about the scripture itself. Is 372 00:22:52,510 --> 00:22:55,670 Speaker 2: this something, Joel, that we see in scripture? Is there 373 00:22:55,730 --> 00:23:00,310 Speaker 2: a prophetic implication of this agreement that's just been made 374 00:23:00,350 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 2: between Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey? 375 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: What do you think? And I think this is one 376 00:23:06,060 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: of the important elements of the Joshua Fund in terms 377 00:23:09,619 --> 00:23:12,510 Speaker 1: of being a ministry fund. that invests in the local 378 00:23:12,570 --> 00:23:14,490 Speaker 1: church and cares for the poor and needy and everything, 379 00:23:14,510 --> 00:23:17,670 Speaker 1: but also educates the global church because people have a 380 00:23:17,710 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: lot of questions and they're not sure who do they trust, 381 00:23:20,380 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: where do they turn, how do they get answers for 382 00:23:22,180 --> 00:23:24,980 Speaker 1: the things that they care about. And so obviously that's 383 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: one of the reasons we appreciate people's financial and as 384 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: well your prayer support because we're trying to use this 385 00:23:30,580 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: program and things like this to educate. And I think 386 00:23:33,619 --> 00:23:36,270 Speaker 1: In this case, I think we don't need to be alarmist. 387 00:23:36,310 --> 00:23:39,470 Speaker 1: I think we don't need to be overly spooked. We 388 00:23:39,510 --> 00:23:42,190 Speaker 1: need to be cautious. And the watchmen on the wall 389 00:23:42,430 --> 00:23:47,270 Speaker 1: that are described in the beginning of Ezekiel, Ezekiel 33, 390 00:23:47,270 --> 00:23:50,330 Speaker 1: in Isaiah and elsewhere, is the idea of keeping an 391 00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:52,990 Speaker 1: eye on what's going on out there to see what's 392 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: a threat. What's a political, geopolitical threat? What's a military threat? 393 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: What's a spiritual threat to the church? All that to say, 394 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: I don't see any specific evidence that Turkey, Saudi Arabia, 395 00:24:08,859 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: and Pakistan become an alliance. I can't rule that out 396 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,790 Speaker 1: based on, for example, Ezekiel 38 and 39, the War 397 00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:20,250 Speaker 1: of Gog and Magog. But I lean strongly against it 398 00:24:20,290 --> 00:24:23,570 Speaker 1: because Saudi Arabia in that text– can be seen as 399 00:24:23,710 --> 00:24:26,950 Speaker 1: Sheba and Dedan. And those two are not the main 400 00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:29,750 Speaker 1: list of countries that come together as an alliance. Russia 401 00:24:29,810 --> 00:24:33,409 Speaker 1: at the head, known as Magog, as well as Rosh. 402 00:24:33,910 --> 00:24:37,879 Speaker 1: And the head of Rosh and Magog is this political figure, 403 00:24:37,940 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: this military leader, this dictator, cruel dictator, evil dictator, known 404 00:24:44,619 --> 00:24:47,780 Speaker 1: as Gog. That's a title, not a name. But Rosh 405 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,930 Speaker 1: is the leader, and he forms this alliance with Iran, 406 00:24:51,290 --> 00:24:54,470 Speaker 1: known in the Bible as Persia. and with Turkey, known 407 00:24:54,510 --> 00:24:56,710 Speaker 1: in the Bible as Gomer, and with a group of 408 00:24:56,770 --> 00:25:00,570 Speaker 1: other countries. But Saudi Arabia in its ancient names, like 409 00:25:00,690 --> 00:25:03,640 Speaker 1: Sheba and Dedan, are not a part of that list. 410 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: But they are mentioned. They're mentioned later in the text 411 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: when Sheba and Dedan and other leaders in the region 412 00:25:09,820 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: are saying to Gog, hey, what are you doing? Why 413 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,959 Speaker 1: are you forming this alliance against Israel? Why are you 414 00:25:17,030 --> 00:25:20,730 Speaker 1: coming to attack Israel? and destroy and invade and consume Israel. 415 00:25:21,310 --> 00:25:23,609 Speaker 1: We don't understand. Are you doing this for, for money? 416 00:25:23,670 --> 00:25:27,790 Speaker 1: Are you doing this for, to, to plunder Israel? Like 417 00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:31,010 Speaker 1: basically Shiva and to Dan among others are asking, what's 418 00:25:31,050 --> 00:25:34,109 Speaker 1: the motivation? We don't understand what you're doing. And that's 419 00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:40,490 Speaker 1: interesting because I, in my assessment that suggests that strongly 420 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: suggests that Saudi Arabia or whatever Arabia looks like, you know, 421 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,290 Speaker 1: I mean, it could be years down the road. It, the, Saudi, 422 00:25:48,550 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: it may not be the Saud family that's running it, 423 00:25:50,369 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: I don't know, but the people of Arabia are not 424 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: in the alliance. You know, mostly the alliance or the 425 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,340 Speaker 1: alliances of Gog and Magog is entirely led by non-Arabs. 426 00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:06,310 Speaker 1: The Russians are not Arab, the Iranians are not Arab, 427 00:26:06,690 --> 00:26:09,409 Speaker 1: and the Turks are not Arab. Now, others in the 428 00:26:09,470 --> 00:26:13,750 Speaker 1: alliance include those from Sudan, and many of them are Arab, 429 00:26:13,790 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: not all, Libya is included, and they're Arabs. But the 430 00:26:18,380 --> 00:26:22,260 Speaker 1: leaders of the End Times Alliance Against Israel, they're not Arabs, 431 00:26:22,780 --> 00:26:25,770 Speaker 1: and Sheba and Dedan are not part of it. It's 432 00:26:25,830 --> 00:26:28,970 Speaker 1: not indicated that they're part of it. What's indicated is 433 00:26:29,010 --> 00:26:32,310 Speaker 1: they're around, but they're questioning this. They don't understand this. 434 00:26:33,380 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: I would— argue that that seems to mean that the 435 00:26:38,580 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: Arabs generally, and particularly Saudi Arabia, will be either in 436 00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: a measure of peace or at least calm and non-belligerent 437 00:26:47,540 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: with Israel as this alliance forms. Now, this particular Mecca 438 00:26:52,550 --> 00:26:55,810 Speaker 1: pact throws a little bit of a pebble in the shoe. Like, 439 00:26:56,270 --> 00:26:58,690 Speaker 1: you know, what does this mean? How long will it last? 440 00:26:59,410 --> 00:27:02,030 Speaker 1: It could be a problem, but And it could mean 441 00:27:02,050 --> 00:27:05,609 Speaker 1: that Gog and Magog, that war is, you know, dozens 442 00:27:05,650 --> 00:27:08,310 Speaker 1: or hundreds of years away. But it might just be 443 00:27:08,350 --> 00:27:11,250 Speaker 1: a blip that is resolved soon. 444 00:27:13,070 --> 00:27:16,450 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think one of the things when we consider 445 00:27:16,570 --> 00:27:19,330 Speaker 2: what does the Bible say about any kind of realignment, 446 00:27:19,410 --> 00:27:23,450 Speaker 2: political realignment, in particular something that doesn't necessarily fit into 447 00:27:23,470 --> 00:27:28,950 Speaker 2: a prophetic end times scenario like this, is to just 448 00:27:28,990 --> 00:27:32,790 Speaker 2: remind ourselves that God is in control, that nothing surprises Him. 449 00:27:32,850 --> 00:27:35,650 Speaker 2: You know, when we look at Daniel chapter 2, we 450 00:27:35,750 --> 00:27:38,690 Speaker 2: see that it's God who raises up leaders, who brings 451 00:27:38,730 --> 00:27:41,250 Speaker 2: them down. It's God that understands the minds of leaders, 452 00:27:41,290 --> 00:27:44,929 Speaker 2: and He directs them where He wants. So it's not something, 453 00:27:44,950 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 2: like you mentioned before, that we need to be alarmist about, 454 00:27:47,820 --> 00:27:51,780 Speaker 2: that we need to become anxious about. It's just a curious, 455 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,420 Speaker 2: interesting thing. new development in a region that is curious 456 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,709 Speaker 2: and interesting all the time. And it's something that God 457 00:28:00,510 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 2: knows about. It didn't surprise Him. You know, this is, 458 00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: it's not insignificant. But it's also not surprising. 459 00:28:08,580 --> 00:28:10,500 Speaker 1: Can I give you an example of that? Yeah, sure. Yeah, 460 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 1: to underscore that point, Lynn. Several years ago, prior to 461 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:22,469 Speaker 1: October 7th, the communist Chinese negotiated an agreement, a relationship. 462 00:28:22,510 --> 00:28:25,450 Speaker 1: I wouldn't call it an alliance, but a relationship– a 463 00:28:25,530 --> 00:28:31,619 Speaker 1: rapprochement between what two countries? Saudi Arabia and Iran. And 464 00:28:31,650 --> 00:28:33,859 Speaker 1: we were all like, what? First of all, why is 465 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: the communist Chinese involved in this? And why is Saudi 466 00:28:36,460 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: Arabia sort of making this deal with the apocalyptic Islamists 467 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,670 Speaker 1: of Iran? Again, this is pre-October 7th and it's pre-February 468 00:28:44,890 --> 00:28:48,830 Speaker 1: 28th where Israel and the United States, you know, killed 469 00:28:48,850 --> 00:28:51,209 Speaker 1: the Ayatollah Khamenei and all the top leadership and went 470 00:28:51,250 --> 00:28:53,890 Speaker 1: to war, right? So what was going on there? Right. 471 00:28:54,130 --> 00:28:56,460 Speaker 1: And it caused people to be a little off balance. 472 00:28:56,480 --> 00:29:00,540 Speaker 1: And I had actually sat with the Saudi crown prince, 473 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,810 Speaker 1: Mohammed bin Salman, on my first trip, the first evangelical 474 00:29:04,850 --> 00:29:07,990 Speaker 1: delegation that I led to meet with him in 2018 475 00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:10,850 Speaker 1: at his request. You came with me. on the second 476 00:29:10,890 --> 00:29:15,730 Speaker 1: delegation in 2019. But in 2018, we specifically asked MBS, 477 00:29:15,910 --> 00:29:18,460 Speaker 1: Mohammed bin Salman, what did he think of the Iranian 478 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: regime and specifically Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei. And MBS told 479 00:29:23,900 --> 00:29:26,060 Speaker 1: us directly and on the record, it's in my book, 480 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:30,610 Speaker 1: Enemies and Allies, MBS said that Khamenei was the new Hitler. 481 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,130 Speaker 1: He really explained to us how dangerous he thought the 482 00:29:35,150 --> 00:29:39,030 Speaker 1: Iranian regime was and particularly because it was developing a 483 00:29:39,110 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: nuclear weapons program and all these ballistic missiles and all 484 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,660 Speaker 1: these terror movements and funding them, like Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis. 485 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,570 Speaker 1: MBS got it. And so that was even more surprising. 486 00:29:50,590 --> 00:29:54,450 Speaker 1: Why would he make a deal with the devil? And 487 00:29:54,590 --> 00:29:58,810 Speaker 1: I almost mean that literally, but certainly figuratively. And again, 488 00:29:59,690 --> 00:30:02,390 Speaker 1: my assessment at the time, although I think it was 489 00:30:02,570 --> 00:30:05,710 Speaker 1: before we started this podcast with each other, my analysis 490 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,140 Speaker 1: at the time was the godfather. This is MBS keeping 491 00:30:09,180 --> 00:30:12,260 Speaker 1: his friends close and his enemies closer. In other words, 492 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:13,880 Speaker 1: if you're in the room and you get to talk 493 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,860 Speaker 1: to each other, you may hate each other, but at 494 00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: least you're listening, you're picking up intel, and you're trying 495 00:30:19,620 --> 00:30:23,860 Speaker 1: to keep any differences from leading to friction, friction leading 496 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,470 Speaker 1: to a fire, fire leading to an explosion. Right. And 497 00:30:27,550 --> 00:30:30,250 Speaker 1: so I think that's what MBS was doing. And therefore, 498 00:30:30,330 --> 00:30:34,570 Speaker 1: it would have been a misreading of the situation to 499 00:30:34,610 --> 00:30:37,230 Speaker 1: think that that deal meant, oh, the Saudis are turning 500 00:30:37,270 --> 00:30:40,110 Speaker 1: against the United States and they're turning towards communist China. 501 00:30:40,410 --> 00:30:42,990 Speaker 1: They're turning against peace with Israel and they're turning towards 502 00:30:43,610 --> 00:30:47,670 Speaker 1: Israel's worst enemy. Because as you recall, and our listeners 503 00:30:47,690 --> 00:30:51,750 Speaker 1: hopefully and viewers will recall, just days before October 7th, 504 00:30:52,130 --> 00:30:55,810 Speaker 1: Mohammed bin Salman went on Fox News with Brett Baer, 505 00:30:55,850 --> 00:31:00,630 Speaker 1: the head of... the special report program and, and said, 506 00:31:00,750 --> 00:31:03,530 Speaker 1: we're this close. We're very, very close. I'm very optimistic 507 00:31:03,830 --> 00:31:07,330 Speaker 1: to make a peace deal with Israel. And like two 508 00:31:07,370 --> 00:31:11,110 Speaker 1: days later, Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu went on Fox 509 00:31:11,510 --> 00:31:14,410 Speaker 1: with Brett Baer right after that and said, I agree 510 00:31:14,430 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: with MBS. We're very close. I'm excited. This is going 511 00:31:17,380 --> 00:31:23,140 Speaker 1: to be historic. So those two things, the communist Chinese 512 00:31:23,180 --> 00:31:26,390 Speaker 1: deal between Saudi and Iran is, seemed to be in 513 00:31:26,470 --> 00:31:31,350 Speaker 1: contradiction with what MBS and Netanyahu told the Fox News. 514 00:31:31,750 --> 00:31:35,709 Speaker 1: But also on that Fox News interview, MBS said how gravely, 515 00:31:35,730 --> 00:31:40,150 Speaker 1: what a grave danger, a grave and growing danger the 516 00:31:40,190 --> 00:31:45,060 Speaker 1: Iranian nuclear threat and terror threat was. So again, I 517 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,300 Speaker 1: just want to give that one example of why I 518 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,260 Speaker 1: think that we should be watchful, we should be wary, 519 00:31:50,740 --> 00:31:57,040 Speaker 1: we should be prayerful, but we shouldn't panic. Amen. Yeah, absolutely. 520 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 2: We should remember that this part of the world changes rapidly, 521 00:32:01,220 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: and it's something to keep an eye on, but to 522 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,180 Speaker 2: be just in prayer about, to be praying, you know, 523 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 2: with knowledge. And that's why we have these podcasts, to 524 00:32:10,530 --> 00:32:14,510 Speaker 2: let people know that there are things that are happening 525 00:32:14,550 --> 00:32:17,570 Speaker 2: here in this part of the world that could affect 526 00:32:17,690 --> 00:32:20,630 Speaker 2: people very deeply, and particularly our brothers and sisters in 527 00:32:20,670 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 2: Christ in these parts of the world and these countries. 528 00:32:24,090 --> 00:32:27,450 Speaker 2: And so let's just keep praying. In the meanwhile, we 529 00:32:27,470 --> 00:32:30,910 Speaker 2: would love for people to consider joining the Joshua Fund 530 00:32:30,950 --> 00:32:35,810 Speaker 2: as givers. We are coming into the end of the 531 00:32:35,870 --> 00:32:39,260 Speaker 2: year as we come into the Israeli fall holidays and 532 00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 2: then the American Christmas holidays. It's a time when people 533 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,100 Speaker 2: begin to think about just sort of their year-end giving. 534 00:32:46,780 --> 00:32:49,140 Speaker 2: And we're really hopeful that we can end this year 535 00:32:49,180 --> 00:32:51,770 Speaker 2: very strong, that we'll send a real signal that we 536 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: can pursue some of the open doors that the Lord 537 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,580 Speaker 2: is showing us next year. We're so excited about so 538 00:32:58,740 --> 00:33:02,180 Speaker 2: many opportunities and so many needs. People are hungry for 539 00:33:02,220 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: the gospel, and we have this new Bible translation of 540 00:33:05,340 --> 00:33:08,170 Speaker 2: the Hebrew Bible, which is so exciting. We want to 541 00:33:08,190 --> 00:33:11,390 Speaker 2: do everything we can to multiply that effort. And many 542 00:33:11,470 --> 00:33:18,290 Speaker 2: other things, biblical counselors, encouraging churches, helping people, Israeli study, 543 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 2: So the Bible, so, so many things. 544 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: And we've expanded into Iran, working with Hormoz Sharia, preaching 545 00:33:25,780 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: the gospel, teaching the word of God by satellite television, 546 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,310 Speaker 1: right over the heads of the mullahs, right over the 547 00:33:31,350 --> 00:33:33,410 Speaker 1: heads of the secret police and all the bad guys 548 00:33:33,850 --> 00:33:36,469 Speaker 1: in Tehran, right to the hearts and the homes of 549 00:33:36,490 --> 00:33:39,270 Speaker 1: the Iranian people. It's one of the exciting new initiatives 550 00:33:39,450 --> 00:33:42,950 Speaker 1: of 2026. And yes, we'd love your help on that 551 00:33:42,990 --> 00:33:44,670 Speaker 1: as well. Amen. Amen. Amen. 552 00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,340 Speaker 2: Well, please remember to send us any additional questions. If 553 00:33:48,380 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 2: there's topics that you want to talk about, if you 554 00:33:50,340 --> 00:33:54,790 Speaker 2: have feedback for this podcast, we would love to hear 555 00:33:54,830 --> 00:33:58,390 Speaker 2: from you. And we hope to see you next time 556 00:33:58,610 --> 00:34:02,450 Speaker 2: on Inside the Epicenter. But for now, we pray that 557 00:34:02,530 --> 00:34:05,030 Speaker 2: you will keep walking with Jesus, that you will keep 558 00:34:05,050 --> 00:34:08,800 Speaker 2: praying for the Epicenter, and that you will have a 559 00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:13,299 Speaker 2: peaceful family time today and in the days to come. 560 00:34:13,700 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 2: But for now, we'll say shalom. From Jerusalem, and thanks 561 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:17,760 Speaker 2: for listening. 562 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:19,379 Speaker 1: Thanks, Lynn. God bless you guys.