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Speaker 1: Life audio.

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Speaker 2: What makes an NDE evidentially significant is when something is

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Speaker 2: known or seen that couldn't have been known or seen

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Speaker 2: in that state physically possible in a sense. And these

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Speaker 2: accounts we'll get to are kids coming back and reporting

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Speaker 2: seeing certain.

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Speaker 3: People that they didn't know existed.

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Speaker 2: That matches up exactly with somebody that adults know and

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Speaker 2: had not told them about.

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Speaker 1: This is a middle aged lady.

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Speaker 4: She says, when I was about nine years old, I

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Speaker 4: drowned and I was revived, but during that time I

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Speaker 4: had a near death experience and it was just as

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Speaker 4: real to her now fifty years later as it was then.

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Speaker 4: Apparently she could just tell me exactly what happened.

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Speaker 2: These kind of descriptions are very very interesting. What does

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Speaker 2: the data show about near death experiences and children? How

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Speaker 2: compelling are they from an evidential standpoint?

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Speaker 3: Doctor Steve Miller.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back. You are my go to near death experience

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Speaker 2: guru and expert, and this is about the tenth episode

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Speaker 2: we've had you on to talk about near death experiences

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Speaker 2: and deathbed experiences and how they provide evidence for God

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Speaker 2: and the afterlife, and also how they dovetail with the

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Speaker 2: best research on traditional Christian Theology Today. We've got a

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Speaker 2: very unique topic that a lot of research has not

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Speaker 2: been done on, and it's near death experiences, deathbed experiences,

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Speaker 2: and children. According to an April twenty twenty six article

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Speaker 2: in Popular Mechanics, children may hold the key to understanding death,

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Speaker 2: but quote very few studies bother and ask children about them.

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Speaker 2: A twenty twenty four article in Psychology Today reported that

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Speaker 2: most near death experience research has been done on adults.

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Speaker 2: So what are the unique challenges of studying cases of

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Speaker 2: children who have near death experiences? And why do you

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Speaker 2: separate them as a special line of evidence?

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Speaker 1: Sure?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that was in Popular Mechanics or rather

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Speaker 4: sensational title, that children hold the key, and but I

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Speaker 4: think there is special evidence there. It's quoting a Psychology

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Speaker 4: Today article that was quoting another peer reviewed article which

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Speaker 4: was a summary of other peer reviewed studies own children.

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Speaker 4: So there have been several it's it has been studied,

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Speaker 4: just not as widely in comparison to near death experiences,

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Speaker 4: where you have scores of studies out there. So they

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Speaker 4: have been studied, but I think the there are both

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Speaker 4: challenges with children. Let's say you have a four year

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Speaker 4: old child that has had some that has died and

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Speaker 4: come back for some reason been resuscitated. You may have

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Speaker 4: to interview them with a coloring book at hand or

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Speaker 4: something to keep their attention, and you talk to them

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Speaker 4: and they may kind of discuss it over time, rather

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Speaker 4: than an adult being willing to talk to you about

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Speaker 4: their experience for hours perhaps, And so their attention to

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Speaker 4: spans a little limited. But the and also their vocabulary

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Speaker 4: is limited to explain things. Now that's a hindrance in

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Speaker 4: one sense, but it's an asset in another because as adults,

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Speaker 4: we're trying to say things in a way that goes

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Speaker 4: along with our worldviews and our past experiences, and children

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Speaker 4: are just kind of freely expressing it. When we get

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Speaker 4: to some of the accounts, you'll actually see this. But

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Speaker 4: I think one of the most important things about children

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Speaker 4: is that number one, they're not familiar with near death

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Speaker 4: experience research. They haven't looked at documentaries of near death studies.

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Speaker 4: So if their experiences are much the same as adults,

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Speaker 4: then it would be hard to say that, oh, well,

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Speaker 4: these people had prior exposure to this. And also they

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Speaker 4: don't have a lot of exposure to theology. So if

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Speaker 4: they're taught about things. They're not trying to put it

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Speaker 4: into their very limited children's worldview, which may just be

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Speaker 4: from children's books that their parents have read to them.

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Speaker 3: That's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: Down on one hand, they lack of vocabulary to explain

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Speaker 2: things in the depth and with clarity that adults can,

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Speaker 2: But that can also be a strong suit because there's

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Speaker 2: less of an agenda. They're just describing as best they

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Speaker 2: can what they've seen and are not as committed typically

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Speaker 2: to a certain way of seeing the world and feeling

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Speaker 2: the need to force this into that way of the world.

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Speaker 4: And they're not trying to sell books obviously like some

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Speaker 4: adults who are telling about their experiencing and by the way,

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Speaker 4: by my paperback book on my experience, so they're not

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Speaker 4: these ulterior motives that some adults would have.

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Speaker 3: I love it. That's helpful.

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Speaker 2: So let's talk about what makes an NDE near death

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Speaker 2: experience evidentially significant? And do you when you assess accounts

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Speaker 2: from children look for the same factors or is it different.

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Speaker 4: Many of the same factors, they just come out in

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Speaker 4: a different way with children. Doctor Diane komp was a

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Speaker 4: professor emeritus of Childhood oncology at Yale university. She was

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Speaker 4: an atheist, and she said that in order for me

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Speaker 4: to find God, I felt like I had to come

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Speaker 4: up with some kind of really reliable witness. And she

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Speaker 4: never thought that that witness would be through watching children

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Speaker 4: go through their deaths. But she had this quote, when

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Speaker 4: the clever are really intelligent, they look to children for answers.

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Speaker 4: And I thought, you know, that's sort of like Jesus

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Speaker 4: treated children. People would say, oh, send the children away,

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Speaker 4: we got important things going on. He said, bring the

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Speaker 4: little children to me, for the Kingdom of Heaven is

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Speaker 4: for such as these, And he respected children. So I

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Speaker 4: think that they really have something special to say to us.

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Speaker 4: I suspect that there ever told that they're dying. This

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Speaker 4: would be a difference between adults. Imagine that you have

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Speaker 4: a five year old child who's dying of leukemia. You're

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Speaker 4: not gonna come up and say, oh, and by the way,

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Speaker 4: you're not going to recover from this, as the child's

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Speaker 4: going to say, well, what do you mean, Well, that

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Speaker 4: means you're gonna go to heaven.

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Speaker 1: Well what does that mean?

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Speaker 4: So?

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Speaker 1: Am I are you going to be there? I mean,

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Speaker 1: to a child, their.

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Speaker 4: Whole world is their home, their family, their teddy bear,

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Speaker 4: the things that they love, what's home to them.

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Speaker 1: That would be a terrifying thing.

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Speaker 4: So Elizabeth Koobler Ross, one of the greatest experts on

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Speaker 4: wrote the book on Death and Dying. She said that

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Speaker 4: she was usually told, don't tell them that they're going

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Speaker 4: to die. So if a child starts saying to their parents,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to die, you wonder where did this come from.

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Speaker 4: This is an unnatural thing. It's not like they've died

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Speaker 4: before and know how it feels. Why are they saying

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Speaker 4: they're dying if indeed they know it beforehand. So this

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Speaker 4: gives us a special opportunity, evidentially to look at to

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Speaker 4: look at the near death experience.

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Speaker 2: That's so interesting, and it kind of crosses over with

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Speaker 2: what might be called a deathbed experience. And we've talked

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Speaker 2: about this in other episodes. But some people who know

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Speaker 2: generally that they're suffering and could be dying, have a

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Speaker 2: distinct awareness that they're dying before the brain or body

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Speaker 2: could be attested and known from a doctor. They just

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Speaker 2: have this direct awareness. But of course they know they're

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Speaker 2: sick and they know what death is. When it comes

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Speaker 2: to kids, they don't know they're dying, and they generally

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Speaker 2: haven't experienced this in the same way that adults have,

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Speaker 2: so to talk about it is so much novel and

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Speaker 2: different and in some ways surprising for a child than

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Speaker 2: an adult. And of course we'll get to this, but

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Speaker 2: what makes what makes an NVE evidentially significant is when

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Speaker 2: something is known or seen that couldn't have been known

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Speaker 2: or seen in that state physically possible in a sense.

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Speaker 2: And these accounts we'll get to are kids coming back

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Speaker 2: and reporting seeing certain people that they didn't know existed.

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Speaker 2: That matches up exactly with somebody that adults know and

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Speaker 2: had not told them about.

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Speaker 3: These kind of descriptions.

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Speaker 2: Are very, very interesting and arguably evidentially significant. Okay, what

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Speaker 2: did children tender report in their NDEs? How do they

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Speaker 2: compare and contrast, for example, with adults. So we often

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Speaker 2: hear there's common criteria maybe twelve or fifteen. The experts

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Speaker 2: like von Lamel and Sabaum and Jeffrey Long and others

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Speaker 2: talk about You've talked about this in your books like

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Speaker 2: heightened senses, seeing things, hearing things a tunnel and jelic

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Speaker 2: beings Life Review. I mean, that'd be interesting for kid

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Speaker 2: who's for to have a life review.

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Speaker 3: But are these common?

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Speaker 2: Are they the same kind of things that we see

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Speaker 2: and adults. Do we see those same kind of things

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Speaker 2: in children in general?

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Speaker 4: I'd say yes, which is surprising from a naturalistic standpoint.

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Speaker 4: You'd think if you have a dying brain and they're

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Speaker 4: just hallucinating from a dying brain, or that they're dreaming

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Speaker 4: dreams that were suggested to them by their parents or others,

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Speaker 4: you would think it would conform to your or your parents'

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Speaker 4: expectations of death, and you'd think that these experiences will

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Speaker 4: be just all over the board as to what they're experiencing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I would think it'd be more common if

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Speaker 1: the child thought that they were.

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Speaker 4: Really dying, that they would kind of deceive themselves by

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Speaker 4: having just thinking about experiences here on earth, continuing with

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Speaker 4: their family, right if you're going to suggest to yourself

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Speaker 4: something that is comforting. So it is surprising that they

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Speaker 4: seem to have the characteristics of others. Now, as you say,

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Speaker 4: they don't have much of a life to review, you know,

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I remember that day when you took my

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Speaker 4: pacifier from me. I don't know what they would review,

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Speaker 4: so that doesn't seem to be significant. But a lot

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Speaker 4: of these are deathbed experiences, and typically in deathbed experiences,

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Speaker 4: the commonalities do not include a life review, which makes

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Speaker 4: sense from a God perspective because they don't have any

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Speaker 4: time to change their lives based on their life review,

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Speaker 4: so it wouldn't make that much sense to.

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Speaker 1: Have a life review if it's right before death.

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Speaker 4: But for the ones having a near death experience, sometimes

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Speaker 4: one difference may be that it seems to be in

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Speaker 4: an adult experience that God is easing our passage to

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Speaker 4: the other side by allowing us to see people that

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Speaker 4: we know that had predeceased them and death, and for

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Speaker 4: these children, they may not know anybody who's already died,

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Speaker 4: so sometimes it'll be a deceased pet that comes to

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Speaker 4: greet them and welcome them and make them feel comfortable

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Speaker 4: on the other side.

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Speaker 1: So that would be a difference.

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Speaker 4: It's not anything and contradiction to the amazing pattern of

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Speaker 4: what goes on in this experience globally with adults, but

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Speaker 4: it is tweaked a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense case.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to get to some stories which are

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Speaker 2: just fascinating and compelling on so many levels, and then

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Speaker 2: some of the most common objections we hear against these,

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Speaker 2: but maybe talk for a minute, Steve, about how these

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Speaker 2: experiences affect children. Are they life changing? And it's just

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Speaker 2: interesting to think about a life changing experience for a

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Speaker 2: four year old or a six year old akin to

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Speaker 2: somebody who's forty, fifty or sixty. Are they the same

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Speaker 2: kind of just impact emotionally and experientially as with an adult.

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Speaker 1: I remember talking to a person.

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Speaker 4: One of the fascinating things about this study is I

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Speaker 4: went into study the best studies of near death and

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Speaker 4: deathbed experiences. I wanted to see what professors and other

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Speaker 4: great researchers had found when they legitimately interviewed these people,

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Speaker 4: some prospectively retrospective, looking at people who'd already had the experience.

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Speaker 4: That's what I wanted to see. But as I began

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Speaker 4: doing this study and would tell other people, people would

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Speaker 4: start telling me their experiences, people from my own circles

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Speaker 4: of trust, people I know and trust. It would just

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Speaker 4: send chills down my spine. I thought, why haven't we

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Speaker 4: ever talked about this at a family gathering? And yet

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Speaker 4: people are scared people will think they're crazy, and so

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Speaker 4: they don't tend to share it.

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Speaker 1: But I remember being at a graduate gathering.

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Speaker 4: I teach you a public university, Kinnesas State University, and

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Speaker 4: there was a graduate school gathering there and my wife

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Speaker 4: pope me and said, hey, why don't you tell so

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Speaker 4: and so here about what you're studying? And I said,

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Speaker 4: near death and deathbed experiences and this happened so much.

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Speaker 4: The lady we're talking to kind of looks at me

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Speaker 4: and goes, hey, can you let's can you talk with

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Speaker 4: me outside? And I said sure. This is a middle

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Speaker 4: aged lady, she's not like a young graduate student. And

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Speaker 4: she says, when I was about nine years old, I

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Speaker 4: drowned and I was revived, but during that time I

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Speaker 4: had a near death experience and it was just as

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Speaker 4: real to her now fifty years later as it was then.

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Speaker 4: Apparently she could just tell me exactly what happened.

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Speaker 1: So it's life changing in.

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Speaker 4: The sense that these people that have these experiences still

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Speaker 4: remember them decades later, and they think about it, and

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Speaker 4: maybe they've not had anybody to talk to about it

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Speaker 4: because they're so embarrassed to bring up the subject to anyone,

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Speaker 4: or they've tried to tell someone about it and the

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Speaker 4: person nervously kind of put them off. So that's a

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Speaker 4: big part of the impact that I'm seeing is that

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Speaker 4: it's just not forgotten. But also for the children themselves

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Speaker 4: is this is a deathbed experience. So again I should

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Speaker 4: back up for those who are first time, a near

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Speaker 4: death experience is when someone, let's say, has a cardiac arrest,

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Speaker 4: the experience clinical death, cessation of breathing and heartbeat, and

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Speaker 4: then they come back telling about this when they're resuscitated,

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Speaker 4: telling about that they are on the other side and

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Speaker 4: this place with no pain, no worries, meeting with angels,

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Speaker 4: perhaps to cease relatives, having a life review, having a

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Speaker 4: decision as to whether you come back or not. Aul

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Speaker 4: in a place that's devoid seemingly of space or time,

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Speaker 4: where you can just go like this, to see something

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Speaker 4: far away just as clearly as it is here. These

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Speaker 4: are things that you're not nobody's expecting on the other

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Speaker 4: side to be able to talk to people's mind to mind.

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Speaker 4: But children experience these, and at death a deathbed experience

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Speaker 4: would be before your final death, like a child dying

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Speaker 4: of leukemia, as we mentioned, but a child experiencing this,

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Speaker 4: it seems to be something that just greatly eases their transition.

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Speaker 4: It sounds like something that loving God would allow to

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Speaker 4: keep a child in the most potentially distressing psychologically and

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Speaker 4: physically time of life to be transitioning. Some of them

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Speaker 4: seem to be like they may have been in a

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Speaker 4: very painful illness, but then for the last few days

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Speaker 4: be totally free of pain. It's almost like they're becoming

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Speaker 4: detached from their body. And then they begin talking about

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Speaker 4: people they're sin now. As opposed to a near death

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Speaker 4: experience where you're coming out of your body, they're typically

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Speaker 4: in their body and they can see their family around

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Speaker 4: them and communicate with them, but at the same time

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Speaker 4: they're talking to deceased people or angels or Jesus or

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Speaker 4: God on the other side. Well, what this does for

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Speaker 4: the child is often and this is what got doctor

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Speaker 4: komp the one who taught at Yale, she said, here here,

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Speaker 4: I had been told don't get too close to the families,

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Speaker 4: don't get too close to your patients at that time.

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Speaker 4: Maybe they've changed now in medical training, but she said,

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Speaker 4: I felt like I had to get close to these families,

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Speaker 4: and in doing so, when I saw some of these

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Speaker 4: children who became very ecstatic and excited about going totally

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Speaker 4: away from everything that they knew, totally away from home,

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Speaker 4: their teddy bears and everything, and they were excited and

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Speaker 4: they were comforting their parents. You see, they didn't even

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Speaker 4: know they were dying, according to the parents, but they

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Speaker 4: knew that they were dying. They knew that their parents

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Speaker 4: were upset and concern and you would see these little

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Speaker 4: children comforting their parents and saying, it's okay, it's great.

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Speaker 4: Over there, I want to go.

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Speaker 2: This is so interesting. I'm getting someone ahead of myself

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Speaker 2: with the objections. But one naturalistic objection would be that

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Speaker 2: evolution explains this. Somebody's dying and it's just easing the

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Speaker 2: process of death. But on the other hand, in evolution

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Speaker 2: is a fight for survival, why would you have a

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Speaker 2: mechanism to help somebody die then encourages other people to

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Speaker 2: not fear death and not fight for survival. Such an explanation,

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Speaker 2: to me, wouldn't seem to work. Now I'm getting a

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Speaker 2: little bit ahead of myself. I do want ep size.

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Speaker 2: My next question is going to be about stories. I

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Speaker 2: need to give us some examples of children, what they're

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Speaker 2: seeing and what they're reporting. But for this lady, you

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Speaker 2: said four or five decades later to hear what you

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Speaker 2: do and then immediately want to share it. Say can

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Speaker 2: we step outside, there's still forty or fifty years later

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Speaker 2: a sense of like embarrassment is even to think I'm crazy.

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Speaker 2: I've got to keep this private, tells me, as a

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Speaker 2: pastor at my local church, as somebody who just works

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Speaker 2: with people personally, not just apologetically. We've got to talk

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Speaker 2: about this, and this is way more common than people realize.

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Speaker 2: And to have an experience from four decades ago feel

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Speaker 2: alive and vibrant tells me that is a life defining

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Speaker 2: experience for this individual, and that's what we see in

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Speaker 2: so many of these children. So with that said, there

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Speaker 2: is power in the stories themselves. But I know you're

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Speaker 2: a data person, and that's one reason I keep bringing

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Speaker 2: you back on as you do your work carefully. Give

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Speaker 2: us some examples of well documented stories from dying children.

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Speaker 2: I say well documented because I know right now people

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Speaker 2: are thinking, we've seen books with well known Christian publishers

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Speaker 2: tell stories about kids near death experiences and then retract

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Speaker 2: it because later the kid says it was made up.

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Speaker 2: Totally recognize there have been some faulty ones, but that

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Speaker 2: doesn't mean all stories are faulty. Give me some examples

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Speaker 2: of well documented cases from dying children, and then maybe

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Speaker 2: how we evidentially evaluate them.

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Speaker 4: Sure, the name of the book, I'm familiar with, whether

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Speaker 4: that happened where it was all a deception. The family's

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Speaker 4: name was malarkey. We should have had some kind of

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Speaker 4: queue so that there was something wrong with that. But yes,

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Speaker 4: So when I went to study these, I thought, I

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Speaker 4: don't want to pull stuff from the internet. These are

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Speaker 4: people that I don't know. I want to approach it

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Speaker 4: like we do in the legal sphere, where testimony is important.

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Speaker 4: Testimony is value our legal system. We're largely crumble without

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Speaker 4: personal testimony and expert testimony. So we're looking for testimonies

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Speaker 4: that are actually valuable. And one of the special cases

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Speaker 4: in the legal system is the deathbed testimony. Because people

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Speaker 4: are very unlikely to be trying to get in their

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Speaker 4: last lie right before they die. They're kind of sensitive

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Speaker 4: to these things and what's their motive. Again, they're not

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Speaker 4: publishing a book or getting famous. They're about to die,

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Speaker 4: So these testimonies can be important. But I just want

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Speaker 4: to warn people if you go to YouTube and start

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Speaker 4: searching for near death experiences, what it's going to inevitably

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Speaker 4: pull up for you are the most anomalous strange experiences,

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Speaker 4: not strange in the sense of unbelievable, but we are

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Speaker 4: going to tend to be talking about a lot of

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Speaker 4: doctrine that maybe fits with a Mormon worldview or a

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Speaker 4: Hindu worldview, or somebody's Christian worldview. Because people that are

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Speaker 4: trying to get clicks on their websites and on their

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Speaker 4: YouTube channels, they know that people love these details, and

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Speaker 4: people are willing to exaggerate and put them out there.

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Speaker 1: So if you go and.

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Speaker 4: Search for it, you'll typically get the ones that are

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Speaker 4: not the same old consistent near death experience or deathbed

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Speaker 4: experience that we're seeing in the literature.

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Speaker 1: So I stuck with the literature.

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Speaker 4: And I've got some of the books here with me

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Speaker 4: to show you that I'm actually reading these books and

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Speaker 4: this is where I'm getting them from rather than just

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Speaker 4: taking stories from the internet. But let me just quote,

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Speaker 4: I'm going to stick a little bit close to the

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Speaker 4: writing because I want to get the stories correct. I

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Speaker 4: have a great respect for these stories. So this is

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Speaker 4: coming from my book Deathbed Experiences as Evidence for the Afterlife,

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Speaker 4: and I document all this relentlessly so that you can

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Speaker 4: go in and study them yourselves.

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Speaker 2: And so people know why you're looking for that quote.

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Speaker 2: People can buy it on Amazon. Yeah, you send people

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Speaker 2: the PDF for free, and we'll give that information at

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Speaker 2: the end. Because earlier we said somebody who's trying to

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Speaker 2: sell books, and then you hold up your book, that's

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Speaker 2: not what you're trying to do. Here, information out to people,

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Speaker 2: and you're happy to send it to them totally for free.

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Speaker 4: Sure, and in case we forget J Steve Miller the

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Speaker 4: letter J Steve Miller at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 1: If you don't have the money or you're in.

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Speaker 4: A cour country where it's hard to get a book,

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Speaker 4: you know I can send you a free PDF of

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Speaker 4: any of my books.

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Speaker 1: I have several on these shows.

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Speaker 3: So I can't believe you give your personal email out.

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Speaker 2: There's about zero chance I would, which just proves you're

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Speaker 2: a better man than I am.

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Speaker 1: Steeve proves I'm not as famous as you.

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Speaker 3: I don't know at.

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Speaker 1: All.

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Speaker 3: Right, go to the quote.

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Speaker 1: Here we go pays one. Let's look at this one.

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Speaker 4: Now, this is one is interesting thing in several ways.

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Speaker 1: First of all, it's a doctor Morse.

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Speaker 4: That was doing the study This was published in a

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Speaker 4: peer review journal as well as his book. He has

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Speaker 4: a book here that I don't see right off hand,

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Speaker 4: but he's he wrote a book on it, dtr Morse,

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Speaker 4: and it's called Closer to the Light. And so there

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Speaker 4: was this child who was brought to him who had

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Speaker 4: died in a swimming pool, drowned. She was found at

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Speaker 4: the bottom of the pool. She was totally unresponsive and

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Speaker 4: was floating face down. Actually when they found her, she

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Speaker 4: was resuscitated in the emergency room. So this was a

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Speaker 4: good while later. They had to get her.

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Speaker 1: To an emergency room and she was she was actually

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Speaker 1: brought back to life.

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Speaker 4: And so doctor Morse inquired about what had happened in

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Speaker 4: the water. So he's talking to the child after she's

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Speaker 4: recovered and fully conscious, and wants to know what happened,

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Speaker 4: I mean, did somebody pushed her, did he needs? Did

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Speaker 4: she hit the bottom? What happened? And she's saying what happened?

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Speaker 4: And she said, well, do you mean about meeting Jesus

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Speaker 4: and the Heavenly Father? And doctor Morris kind of shocked.

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Speaker 4: He says, why, yes, tell me about that answer. And

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Speaker 4: so she told of meeting Jesus, the heavenly father and

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Speaker 4: a parent angel, a couple of young boys named Mark

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Speaker 4: and Andy, and he was and she talked for a

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Speaker 4: little while, Like I was saying, with children, you don't

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Speaker 4: get the whole story out of them, but he got

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Speaker 4: that much. And then he interviews some intensive care nurses

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Speaker 4: to see if this could be corroborated with them, and said,

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Speaker 4: you know, what did she say when she first waked up,

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Speaker 4: If you're the one that said, well, they asked where

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Speaker 4: Mark and Andy? So I mean, this was a story

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Speaker 4: that she knew well right from the very start and

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Speaker 4: was consistent with it. But she spoke of seeing things

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Speaker 4: that were going on with her family at their house

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Speaker 4: during the time she was in the telling where what

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Speaker 4: clothes her family was wearing. This is in their house, right,

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Speaker 4: She wasn't in their house. She was in the hospital,

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Speaker 4: and she's telling what's going on in her house with

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Speaker 4: her family, what her mom was cooking, what her brothers

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Speaker 4: were playing with a gi Joe specifically, and a jeep.

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Speaker 4: Katie's mother corroborated this and was indeed what they were

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Speaker 4: doing and what they were wearing at the house.

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Speaker 1: So he publishes this art.

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Speaker 4: Okay, now I think about that for a minute, how

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Speaker 4: did she know these things unless she was outside of

439
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 4: her body, Which lets you know why people like JP

440
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 4: Morland and Gary Habermoss are intent on talking about near

441
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 4: death experiences to say, this seems to prove that people

442
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 4: are outside of their bodies and mind body dualism, which

443
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 4: the Bible talks about, so they use that as evidence

444
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 4: of this. This is a good case in point. So

445
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 4: it was published in the American Journal of Diseases of Children.

446
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 4: This was not a theological journal. And by the way,

447
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 4: these studies on near death and death but experiences, they're

448
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 4: all over the medical literature because these are very practical

449
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 4: questions that nurses and doctors have to deal with on

450
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 4: a day to day basis. If someone's dying and they

451
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 4: begin talking to deceased relatives, they need to know, oh,

452
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 4: do I need to adjust the morphine or is this

453
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 4: some type of legitimate experience. And basically, when you read

454
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 4: these articles, overwhelmingly they say, treat it like a legitimate

455
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 4: whatever you believe about it, treat it like a legitimate experience.

456
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,480
Speaker 1: This is not a hallucination.

457
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: It's a great response from that doctor to just say, yeah,

458
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 2: tell me more and not freak galloy, I don't.

459
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 4: He was just flabbergast did and didn't know what to say,

460
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 4: or if he was sensitive enough to children to say,

461
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 4: why this is interesting.

462
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 1: Let's uh.

463
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 2: And I find the same thing in my conversation with people.

464
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 2: Sometimes people will say certain things that indicate they've had

465
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: an experience like this. I just say, tell me more.

466
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 2: And it's amazing how many times people are willing to share. Now,

467
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 2: it's evidentially significant about this is she's face down, clinically dead,

468
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 2: if she's rusted the hospital, this is seemingly beyond the

469
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: four minute mark as far as I would guess, resuscitated back.

470
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 2: Her family was not there giving her information that she

471
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: did not talk with them before the doctor did. He's

472
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 2: the first one when she's suscitated back reports information from

473
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 2: a distance, specified information, not just my siblings are playing

474
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 2: on the floor or genero my mom is making dinner.

475
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 3: It's specified information.

476
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 4: What they what they're eating, what they're playing with.

477
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 3: And it matches up.

478
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 2: That's the kind of evidential significance that we're looking for

479
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 2: that says this is more of a story than a

480
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 2: kid just made up. Not to mention, I mean child

481
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 2: or not like drowning like that is incredibly traumatic. That

482
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 2: this is the first thing you talk about, is so

483
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 2: opposite of what you would expect just from a biological level. Now,

484
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 2: I do want to ask if there's some reputable, larger studies,

485
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 2: but are there some other individual accounts that you want

486
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 2: to share about children's share I think.

487
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 4: They need to deal with some of these accounts because

488
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,280
Speaker 4: they're published in peer review literature or by very respected people.

489
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 4: Let me tell you, first of all, just what Morse

490
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:19,400
Speaker 4: did as a result of this.

491
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: He said, we are taught what is his conclusion.

492
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 4: Okay, he's the doctrine charge and his articles you'll find

493
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 4: are very well documented, very very good studies that he does.

494
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 4: But he said, we're taught in medical skill to find

495
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 4: the simplest explanation for medical problems. After looking at all

496
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 4: the other explanations for near death experiences, I think the

497
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 4: simplest explanation is that ndseas are actually glimpses into the

498
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 4: world beyond.

499
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: Why not.

500
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 4: I've read all the convoluted psychological and physiological explanations for

501
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 4: NDEs and none of them seems very satisfying. And so

502
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 4: he went on to do a study of children's near

503
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 4: death experiences and bed experiences and publish those as well.

504
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,560
Speaker 2: That's just like about as good of a motivation to

505
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 2: do that study as any. If that doesn't speak your interest,

506
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: I don't know what would now. I do want to

507
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: get into some of those studies. But is there another

508
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 2: account or two you want to share about the kind

509
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: of experiences that children have so we get a sense

510
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 2: of it, or do you want to move on to

511
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 2: the larger style.

512
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 4: Let's let's talk about some of these. I think people

513
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 4: need to stop and reflect and put it in your

514
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 4: theological or philosophical pipe and smoke on it a little

515
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 4: bit on your back deck, because you need you need

516
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 4: to stop and think about it.

517
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 3: Hey, this is Biola. We don't smoke here. I'm just kidding.

518
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:41,480
Speaker 1: I teach you to public university. Okay, So here we go.

519
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: H on children and Death.

520
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 4: This is by Elizabeth Koobler Ross, who is a trained psychiatrist.

521
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 4: Her doctred is in psychiatry. She's probably the authority on

522
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 4: death and dying, and so she has a book on

523
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 4: children and death. And I'll just read one of her

524
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 4: counts for you to evaluate. But very fascinating. Again, she

525
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 4: said it, this reminds me of my early days of

526
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 4: my work with dying patients, and she was one of

527
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 4: the first when she came from Switzerland to New York

528
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 4: City and began working with dying patients.

529
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: She was just appalled at the way they were treated.

530
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 4: The doctors were embarrassed that they were failing, you know,

531
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 4: so they're kind of and you're just trying every possible

532
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 4: way to keep somebody alive, which may just be torturing

533
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 4: the patient. And so she began to work and become

534
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 4: an authority own working with people that they're dying stages,

535
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 4: and was very influential on the hospice movement.

536
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: By the way, at the beginnings.

537
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 2: Of that about this is we're seeing more and more

538
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 2: research come out about people that seem to be in

539
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: a brain dead, comatose state that it was believed they

540
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 2: couldn't register and hear, and now it's like, oh, actually

541
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: people come out of it and see and hear the

542
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: way they were treated in very dehumanizing kind of lengthguage

543
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 2: is what we would expect if we are body and

544
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: soul and not just a body. So that's another line

545
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 2: of evidence I think that's pointing towards this dualism that

546
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: we're talking about.

547
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 3: But keep going with her research.

548
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 4: Sure, so I spent at the unit she was working

549
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,800
Speaker 4: at a university hospital, where she said I had no

550
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 4: I had to promise never to tell my patients that

551
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 4: they were terminally ill. It was easy to keep this promise,

552
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 4: since the patients would tell me. Shortly before children die,

553
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 4: there's often a very clear moment, as I call it.

554
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 4: Those who have remained in a coma since the accident

555
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 4: or the surgery opened their eyes. That's terminal lucidity, as

556
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 4: we've talked about before. They opened their eyes and seem

557
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 4: very coherent. Those who have had great pain and discomfort

558
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 4: are very quiet and at peace. It is in these

559
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 4: moments that I asked them if they were willing to

560
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 4: share with me what they were experiencing. Yes, this is

561
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 4: a quote. Yes everything is all right now. Mommy and

562
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,479
Speaker 4: Peter are already waiting for me. One boy replied with

563
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 4: a content little smile. He slipped back into a coma,

564
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 4: from which he made the transition we called death. I

565
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 4: was aware that the child's mother had died at the

566
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 4: scene of the accident. Okay, so remember he saw Mommy

567
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 4: and Peter waiting for him. When she said she was

568
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 4: aware that the mother had died. Maybe he had heard

569
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 4: from someone that his mother had died. Okay for her

570
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 4: to expect her on the other side, But he said,

571
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 4: Mommy and Peter are both waiting for me. I was

572
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 4: aware that the mother had died, but Peter had not died.

573
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,880
Speaker 4: He had been brought to a special burn unit in

574
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 4: another hospital, severely burnt because the car had caught fire

575
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 4: before he was extricated from the wreck. Since I was

576
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 4: only collecting data, accepted the boy's information and determined to

577
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 4: look in on Peter. It was not necessary, however, because

578
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 4: as I passed the nursing station, there was a call

579
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 4: from the other hospital to inform me that Peter had

580
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 4: died a few minutes earlier. In all that chill going

581
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 4: down your spine, yet it should be if this is crazy,

582
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 4: wild stuff from a naturalistic standpoint, in all the years

583
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 4: that I have quietly collected data from California to Sydney, Australia,

584
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 4: white and black children, Aboriginals, Eskimos, South Americans and Libyan youngsters,

585
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 4: every since she is speaking with authority here right, every

586
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 4: single child who has mentioned that someone was waiting for

587
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 4: them mentioned a person who had actually preceded them in death,

588
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 4: even if only by a few moments.

589
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,440
Speaker 1: And yet none of these children had been informed of the.

590
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 4: Recent death of the relatives by us at any time coincidence.

591
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 4: By now, there is no scientist or statistician who could

592
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 4: convince me that this occurs, as some colleagues claim, as

593
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 4: a result of oxygen deprivation or for other rational or

594
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 4: scientific reasons. So this is the conclusion of somebody who's

595
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 4: spent her life working with the dying, and specifically a

596
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 4: lot of dying children.

597
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 2: So the first account is somebody having information at a

598
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: distance that they could not have had access to. This

599
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 2: account is somebody having information from the next life or

600
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: the after life that they couldn't have had information to,

601
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 2: knowing that a person had died. What's interesting about this

602
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 2: is this not just North American Christians, for example, she says,

603
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 2: it's a cross culture, Libya, Latin America, Native Americans, you

604
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: name it. So it's more of a universal kind of experience,

605
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 2: which tells us two things. Number one, there's a lot

606
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 2: of numbers behind this. Yes, Number two, there's a lot

607
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 2: of diversity behind this, which I think makes the case

608
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: arguably even stronger. Uh, let's talk a little about do

609
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: you have another individual story you want you want to share.

610
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: Love them are closely related to me.

611
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 4: Again, one of the most fascinating things, and I would

612
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,239
Speaker 4: just encourage people. One of the most fascinating things about

613
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 4: this is if you're not into the research and digging

614
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 4: endlessly into peer reviewed journals, start talking to the people

615
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 4: you know and trust. Tell them you know, I'm interested,

616
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 4: and I'm studying on near death and deathbed experiences and experience.

617
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 1: And you'll be amazed at how many people come up.

618
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 4: To you from your church, from your UH, from your work,

619
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 4: from your UH wherever you're studying at a university UH

620
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 4: and and start telling you these stories. So I reconnected

621
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 4: with a friend of mine in the ministry. He had

622
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 4: had a background and a Simmary seminary that was more

623
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 4: on dispensationalism, teaching that God worked these miraculous ways and early,

624
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,919
Speaker 4: you know, back in biblical times, but not so much now.

625
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 4: So when we were in ministry together, we didn't talk

626
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,479
Speaker 4: a lot about miracles and visions or anything like that.

627
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 4: He had since spent some time in a Muslim country

628
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:07,239
Speaker 4: ministering and had come back and was talking about some

629
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 4: of these visions. But they actually had one that happened

630
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 4: in their own family. So this is a person I

631
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 4: know and trust. He's not a guy who's always telling

632
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 4: wild stories of God did this, God did that in

633
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,600
Speaker 4: my life. He's not one of those. But his wife

634
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 4: just wrote me an email. She said, I'd like to

635
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 4: tell you what happened to my precious four year old niece.

636
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 4: She gives the names, but I'm going to leave those

637
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:37,800
Speaker 4: out for their privacy. She died tragically and unexpected unexpectedly.

638
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: Several years ago, four years old.

639
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 4: Okay, Remember that a few weeks prior to her death,

640
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,439
Speaker 4: she started coming to her parents room in the middle

641
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 4: of the night. She would wake them up tell them

642
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 4: that she had seen Jesus and that he wanted her

643
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 4: to come and live with him. His parents, of course,

644
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 4: would assure her that yes, someday she would go to

645
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 4: be with Jesus when she died, but that would be

646
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 4: a long time in the future. The following night, Andy

647
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 4: came into the bedroom and repeated what she had seen.

648
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 4: The third night this happened, her mother became upset and

649
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,479
Speaker 4: told her, no, not now, in the future. Andy would

650
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 4: not be convinced, Mommy, She said, Jesus wants me to

651
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 4: come now to live with him, and I want to

652
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 4: go now. I get that she wants to go now.

653
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 4: Her parents were not mean parents. This was a loving family.

654
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 4: But somehow on the other side, she felt so welcomed

655
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 4: so at home that this had prepared her and was

656
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 4: preparing her family with what was to happen. Two weeks later,

657
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 4: the mother was driving to the school where she was

658
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 4: a teacher. The daughter safely buckled in the back seat

659
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 4: the rural road where they ran parallel to the train track.

660
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 4: Then right before the school, the road made a sharp

661
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 4: left turn and crossed the track. It was a blind crossing,

662
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 4: meaning there were no gates or lights. The mother crossed

663
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 4: the track every morning. At this time there were never

664
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 4: any train, but this day there was. The car they

665
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:09,360
Speaker 4: were driving was broadsided by the train, badly damaged. The

666
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 4: mother survived, but the child died in that wreck. She

667
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,360
Speaker 4: was able to hold her for a minute, but she

668
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 4: died afterwards. And indeed she went to live with Jesus.

669
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 4: So this is a powerful, powerful thing coming from somebody,

670
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 4: somebody I know, and I can just maybe if we

671
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 4: don't have time for all of these, I'll just say

672
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 4: they're I don't know the statistics on children. Children obviously

673
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 4: haven't lived as long as adults, and so they haven't

674
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 4: had as many opportunities to die and come back in

675
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 4: a near death experience.

676
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 1: Or have heart attacks or whatever.

677
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 4: So four percent of the adult population is talking about

678
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,399
Speaker 4: near death experiences. In large well done surveys in Australia

679
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 4: and Germany. The United States, four to six percent of

680
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 4: the people deathbed experiences deathbed visions. Someone studied that in

681
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 4: a hospice unit.

682
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: In New York.

683
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 4: They interviewed the patients daily and found that up to

684
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 4: eighty eight percent of them we're having these experiences. So

685
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,480
Speaker 4: these are widely experienced. I don't know the numbers on children,

686
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 4: but I know there are plenty of peer reviewed and

687
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 4: reputable people that have given plenty of instances of coming

688
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 4: from children.

689
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 1: But I'll just mention a family from Ukraine.

690
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: Let mean you have in here before you go to

691
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 2: the family from Ukraine. I know people listening to that

692
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 2: past story going, wait a minute, why would God allow

693
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 2: this to happen? Why wouldn't he just save the child?

694
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 2: Those are completely fair questions. Yes, related to the problem

695
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,359
Speaker 2: of evil, and we're going to deal with theological and

696
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 2: biblical objections in an entire other episode we're doing soon.

697
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 3: We're not dismissing those.

698
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,880
Speaker 2: Part of my answer is I don't know the answer

699
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 2: to that, and that's very fair. What we're looking at

700
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: here is the evidential significance of somebody saying this in

701
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 2: the middle of the night to their parents and then

702
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 2: within two weeks dying. That is, it's hard to invent

703
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 2: a story like that. Again, somebody seemingly no incentive because

704
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 2: you know, they lost their child. Sharing this with you personally,

705
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,319
Speaker 2: that's a very significant thing. Now, of course somebody gets say, well,

706
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 2: they're inventing it to make themselves feel good and comfort themselves.

707
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 3: Well, there's a lot of.

708
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: Ways to comfort yourself besides inventing a story that raises

709
00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: other things.

710
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 4: How did they know they needed to be comforted exactly?

711
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: Train had not hit them in that.

712
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,280
Speaker 3: You're raising all the right questions.

713
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 2: I just want to make sure people know we're not

714
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 2: dismissing those, and I understand the way to those questions.

715
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: Let me let me comment on the problem of evil.

716
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 4: I think this is important and I think that near

717
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 4: death and deathbed experiences have something to say to that,

718
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 4: because people do think of what what kind of a

719
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 4: god would allow a young child like this to be

720
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 4: to be killed in such a tragic way. But I

721
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 4: will say that people who have had near death experiences,

722
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 4: and I've read hundreds and hundreds of these experiences, I've

723
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 4: never seen one person come back and say that when

724
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 4: they met God that he was evil or unjust.

725
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: They even the things.

726
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 4: In their life like why was I born into this

727
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 4: family or why did this happen to me? On the

728
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 4: other side, it all made since, and they come back saying,

729
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 4: that is the most loving being. I never wanted to

730
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 4: leave this being side, And so it seems like the

731
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 4: problem of evil is cleared up once your mind has expanded.

732
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 4: Now when they come back over here, they can't explain

733
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 4: to you exactly why all that made sense, but they

734
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 4: know that it made sense, and so I think it

735
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,280
Speaker 4: does speak to a loving God. That is another issue

736
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 4: and a lot of discussion. I've I've lost loved ones,

737
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 4: been through a lot of tragedy in my life, so

738
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 4: I understand those questions, and I've come out in my

739
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 4: theological journey would beling that God really does love us,

740
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 4: even though there's a lot of horrible things that happened

741
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:13,760
Speaker 4: in the world.

742
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 3: Amen. And he loves children too.

743
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: We see that distinctly with Jesus in an age when

744
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 2: children were not valued on the same level. Even his

745
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,360
Speaker 2: disciples are like, why are you talking to children? So

746
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,320
Speaker 2: on that note, I think you had one more account

747
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:27,919
Speaker 2: you wanted to share.

748
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 4: Sure, well, I'll mention briefly a couple of them. But

749
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,680
Speaker 4: I lived in Slovakia for a while and had a

750
00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 4: colleague that was a missionary in the Ukraine. And I

751
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 4: noticed in his prayer letter he mentioned that his child

752
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 4: had died when he had made a little fort in

753
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 4: a snow bank and the snow bank fell on him, died,

754
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 4: was resuscitated in the ambulance, and I thought, okay, And

755
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 4: he mentioned that he had some kind of experience on

756
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 4: the other side.

757
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,879
Speaker 1: So I talked with this child.

758
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 4: On the phone, and it was it was amazing. He

759
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 4: went to the other side, he felt perfectly fine, and

760
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 4: his deceased Saint Bernard was bounding in to greet him,

761
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 4: and it was just a precious story. But as I

762
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 4: asked him, he just he could. It was almost like

763
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,839
Speaker 4: he was playing back the video.

764
00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:21,959
Speaker 1: In his mind. I said.

765
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 4: He said, oh, there were these beautiful flowers over there,

766
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 4: and I said, well, what colors were they? And he

767
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,600
Speaker 4: told me specifically the colors he saw the ones he

768
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 4: didn't see, and then he said there were other colors

769
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 4: that I've never seen before, but I can't even describe those.

770
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 4: So it was a powerful experience in this child's life.

771
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 4: Again coming from somebody that I know and trust, Why

772
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 4: would they be lying to me about that. There's a

773
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 4: dissertation I quote. Angela Ethier wrote a dissertation for her

774
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 4: nursing degree, so her doctoral work on children and death,

775
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 4: and so she interviewed a lot of parents who had

776
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 4: lost their children, and in that there was a story

777
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 4: about a parent who was in with her child. Her

778
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 4: child kind of gingerly asked, mother, do you see the

779
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 4: angels in the room, And her mother, wanting to have

780
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 4: a feel good moment, said, well, yes, I see them.

781
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 4: And the child says what do they look like? And

782
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 4: she said the mother said, well, the one I see

783
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:29,279
Speaker 4: has great big wings, and she says, Mom, you don't

784
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 4: have to lie to me.

785
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 1: They don't have wings. And so the wisdom of children

786
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,680
Speaker 1: and that's something that.

787
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 4: Doctor Barrett wrote in his book, Sir William Barrett Deathbed Visions.

788
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 4: He was collecting stories of deathbed visions. He was so

789
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 4: great at his work in physics and his discoveries that

790
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 4: he was knight at Sir William Barrett, very reputable source.

791
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 4: But he said that typically when he saw children, that

792
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 4: stories of children who had died, that the angels didn't

793
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 4: have wings, which is impressive from a Christian standpoint, because children,

794
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 4: if they're getting their theology from little children's books and

795
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 4: children's stories, all the stories of Jesus and the angels,

796
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,240
Speaker 4: you know at his birth, all the angels have wings,

797
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 4: but the Bible never says that they had wings, right.

798
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 4: I mean, there's some angelic creatures in the Old Testament

799
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,799
Speaker 4: that had wings, but they're never called angels. So it's

800
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 4: like what you would think a child would be expecting

801
00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 4: doesn't happen. So these are powerful stories and maybe I

802
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 4: should mention Diane Coomp too in her book and I

803
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 4: would highly recommend it. A Window to Heaven Again by

804
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:52,400
Speaker 4: Dane comp She's the one who teaches or taught at Yale.

805
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 4: She's retired now Professor emeritus, and she gives cases where

806
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,760
Speaker 4: the children were dying. This is when she was an

807
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 4: atheist and she was watching these children die, and one

808
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 4: child just right before she died, she just raised up

809
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 4: in her bed and she said, Mimmy, the angels. Can

810
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 4: you hear them singing? I've never heard such beautiful singing.

811
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,800
Speaker 4: She was ecstatic, and then she laid down and died.

812
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 4: I mean just immediately. You can't make up that. I mean,

813
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 4: what's going on? And you a witness, you know, when

814
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,120
Speaker 4: you're in a court situation, you're evaluating testimony. You look

815
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 4: at people's expressions, how they're saying, what they're saying, when

816
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 4: little children are just as sincere as the world talking

817
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 4: about these things. But Dan comp said something very special.

818
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 4: She said, you couldn't have given the parents a greater

819
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 4: gift at that point, because these parents have the assurance

820
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 4: that their child was going to heaven.

821
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 1: What more could you add ask for?

822
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know where she went in her worldview,

823
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: but if you're an atheist, it's hard to account for

824
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 2: a gift. What evolution gives you a gift like that

825
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 2: doesn't make any sense. But if there's a gift giver,

826
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 2: a god who cares about comforting people, it makes sense.

827
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: It's the kind of thing that we might expect and

828
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,480
Speaker 2: fits within a certain worldview.

829
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 3: It's not surprising. It gave me goosebumps, and it's beautiful.

830
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 2: It's not surprising from an epistemic standpoint, which is important.

831
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 4: And by the way, doctor comp did become a believer

832
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 4: in God, became a strong Christian.

833
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: And she's got.

834
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 4: Verses throughout this book. I haven't I think nineteen nineties

835
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 4: or whatever. It's probably ninety nine cents on Amazon.

836
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: Get it. I mean, here is a Yale.

837
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 4: Professor talking about the experiences she's seen. I think that's

838
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 4: a great source.

839
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 2: So people know you have a Yale professor here, you

840
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 2: have Sir William Barrett who was knighted Doctor Morris. You're

841
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,520
Speaker 2: not pulling from just studies and random stories on YouTube.

842
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: You've done careful work again, which is why I keep

843
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 2: wanting you back. Now. There are some objections I do

844
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 2: want you to address related to children having NDEs, and

845
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 2: one of them comes from Michael Shermer, who I've had

846
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: debates with multiple times. Really a joy engaging him, thoughtful,

847
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: and he's pushed back on the evidence of near death experiences,

848
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 2: even though he had a kind of experience that doesn't

849
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: really fit within his worldview. But that's a story for

850
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 2: another time. You and I have discussed a fun story. Yes,

851
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 2: and he said, there are billions of people in the world.

852
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 2: With that many people having dreams and hallucinations, surely the

853
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 2: odds are that some will have hallucinations that correspond to

854
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 2: reality and fantastic ways. People just don't understand large numbers. Now,

855
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: basically this is a common naturalistic move to increase our

856
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 2: probabilistic resources. So the origin of life incredibly remote. But

857
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,360
Speaker 2: if you have enough universes or enough planets and enough

858
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 2: oppertun tunity in time, life could emerge. It's the same

859
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 2: kind of moves. So, yes, these are surprising from the

860
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:08,919
Speaker 2: bottom up. But if you include the number of people

861
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 2: who have lived in the accounts that people tell, we

862
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,080
Speaker 2: shouldn't be surprised that we have a few anomalies, so

863
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 2: to speak, that we can't explain.

864
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 4: Sure well, Number one, there are black swans in science

865
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 4: where somebody will say, you know, all you need is

866
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 4: one black swan to overturn the theory that all swans

867
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 4: are white. And sure enough, that's what some European explorers

868
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 4: found when they used to make little jokes about, you know,

869
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 4: white swans, because all swans they knew were white. And

870
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 4: then somebody goes down to Australia and finds.

871
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: A black one.

872
00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:48,720
Speaker 4: It only takes one good observation to overturn a theory

873
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 4: that all swans are white. Well, what naturalists are saying

874
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 4: is everything is naturalistic. Okay, Well, all you need to

875
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 4: find is one thing that is not consistent obviously with naturalism.

876
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,839
Speaker 4: Or they say the body. When the body dies, the

877
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 4: person dies. Okay, well that's something. But when you have

878
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 4: these people giving testimony after testimony in a situation that

879
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 4: in a court of law they would be very believable

880
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 4: saying that they were on the other side visiting with

881
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 4: deceased relatives, that sounds like these relatives died years ago,

882
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 4: that's after their life, which sounds a lot like the

883
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 4: after life to me. And so I think we have

884
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 4: great evidence, not just okay, so children, Well I don't

885
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 4: have statistics on children, but I have a lot of

886
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 4: great accounts from authorities who have seen a lot of

887
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:45,759
Speaker 4: children in death situations and have collected them. But when

888
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 4: you look at the near death experiences in general, four

889
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 4: to six percent of the population eighty percent to eighty

890
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 4: eight percent having these visions at death. This is not

891
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 4: a one out of a billion thing. As Shermer's talking about.

892
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 4: And by the way, Shermer made one statement. I did

893
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 4: read his book where he was arguing against the afterlife,

894
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 4: and he said, one reason that we know that there's

895
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 4: not an afterlife is that when as the body's dying

896
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 4: from diseases like meningitis and Alzheimer's that are destroying the brain,

897
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 4: that they don't get better, they don't recover their ability

898
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 4: to have conscious experiences. Well, obviously he didn't study terminal lucidity,

899
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 4: because we have good evidence that at death, a lot

900
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 4: of these people, including some children, they're at death, maybe

901
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 4: their brains have been eaten away by a tumor not

902
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 4: just pushed aside, but actually eaten away and then become

903
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 4: perfectly conscious. That speaks against Shermer's contention that once your

904
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 4: brain is gone, that you can't have experiences with your mind.

905
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: So the number of cases we have and the specificity

906
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 2: of those cases counters the idea that we can just

907
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,800
Speaker 2: look at so many people who die, and the number

908
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 2: of possibilities, the number of cases that we could document

909
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 2: from reputable sources, and the specificity they give cannot be

910
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:13,440
Speaker 2: wiped away by just referring to some apparent large number.

911
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 3: All right, With that said, let's go a couple more.

912
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 2: Sometimes skeptics will pose it that these are the results

913
00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 2: of a developing brain undergoing stress. So either it's a

914
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:28,480
Speaker 2: young brain, it's developing, it's expanding pretty radically, and sometimes

915
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 2: this will be coupled with kids just creative imaginations, which

916
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: we all know have kids. Kids have creative imaginations, and

917
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,799
Speaker 2: they have dragon friends, and they have battles they fought in.

918
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 2: So how do we know that the best explanation is

919
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 2: not some developing brain or just kids kind of telling

920
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 2: stories like kids do.

921
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 4: Sure, I mean some even adults believe that Spider Man

922
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 4: is real, you know, so we do have to consider

923
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 4: that as a hypothesis. But as Bruce Gray, doctor Bruce

924
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 4: grace And said, who's taught his whole most of his

925
00:52:02,160 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 4: adult life at the University of Virginia Department of Perceptual Studies,

926
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 4: he says, near death experiences sound pretty naturalistic as long

927
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 4: as you ignore all the supernatural elements. And I think, yeah, people,

928
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 4: there are things that happen at death to the brain

929
00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 4: that caused some people to hallucinate, some people to think

930
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 4: that bugs are crawling all over them, or have all

931
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:30,400
Speaker 4: kinds of distressing things go on, but these are very

932
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 4: different from a near death or deathbed experience. From what

933
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 4: they're experiencing there, they're very lucid. They'll just talk to

934
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 4: you like we're talking to each other right now. And

935
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 4: you say, this is a real intelligent person that's speaking

936
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:48,120
Speaker 4: very lucidly about what's going on. And then anything about

937
00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:53,640
Speaker 4: a dying brain doesn't explain how this child knew before

938
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:55,839
Speaker 4: the train hit them that they were going to die.

939
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 4: It didn't doesn't tell how the little girl knew what

940
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 4: her family was at their houses. It's just not a

941
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:03,520
Speaker 4: sufficient explanation.

942
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,680
Speaker 2: Another response is that parents or some other authority are

943
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:11,160
Speaker 2: filtering these cases to kids. Like I mentioned earlier, there's

944
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 2: at least one prominent best selling book I guess the

945
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:17,399
Speaker 2: name was Malarkey. That's the first I've heard that with

946
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,440
Speaker 2: some level of irony of a child having a near

947
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,080
Speaker 2: death experience that the publisher pulled and said it didn't happen.

948
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 2: So how do we know there's not some kind of

949
00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 2: hidden information or mechanism giving this to kids before they

950
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 2: share their accounts.

951
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,439
Speaker 4: So in none of these illustrations that I've given were

952
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 4: the parents, you know, writing books about it or have

953
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 4: any ulterior motives for doing it, And think about doctor

954
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,080
Speaker 4: Morris was interviewing the child her self, not the parents,

955
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 4: about what was going on, and typically these are doctor

956
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,839
Speaker 4: kober Ross. She was actually talking directly to the children themselves.

957
00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 4: So I don't think it can be just parents making

958
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:02,200
Speaker 4: up things.

959
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 2: So talking to the kids themselves helps weed that out.

960
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 2: But also there's a certain chain of command in some

961
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 2: of these cases where there's just no time for parent

962
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 2: input from the accident, near death experience to the report.

963
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 2: Parents come subsequent to that. So unless you say the

964
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 2: parents fed them, had the kid fed them the information,

965
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 2: had them nearly die and drown and then come out

966
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,240
Speaker 2: of it to tell this story, which is far less

967
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:32,680
Speaker 2: believable to me, the possibility to impart that information at

968
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:34,160
Speaker 2: least many of the cases is.

969
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 4: Not extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. I mean, hey, maybe

970
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 4: these kids have an international conspiracy together to tell stories

971
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 4: that all have the same results. Okay, but that what

972
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 4: an extraordinary You know, the parents all made this up?

973
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 4: But wait a minute, was the kids interviewed? These naturalistic

974
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 4: explanations are just quite extraordin and seem to have no

975
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 4: data behind them. These studies have been done for the

976
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 4: past fifty years, particularly on near death experiences, and the

977
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 4: naturalistic theories just do not fit the data that the

978
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 4: best researchers have gotten. And some of these researchers have

979
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:21,160
Speaker 4: been researching since their early years in medicine, and today,

980
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 4: you know, fifty years later, they're saying, yeah, these people

981
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 4: came out of their bodies. So you've got to match

982
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,479
Speaker 4: the data infer to the to you know, to the

983
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 4: hypothesis that makes the best sense of the data.

984
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 2: That's why worldview is so important and critical here that

985
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 2: if you bring a theistic worldview an openness to the afterlife,

986
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 2: these stories don't surprise me. They fit with what I

987
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 2: believe it's true. But what is interesting is you have

988
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 2: people like Pim von Nmel who I've interviewed, Evan Alexandrew

989
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 2: who I've interviewed, committed leading scientists, medical doctors in a

990
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:03,800
Speaker 2: materialist worldview. You game changing experiences they had or saw

991
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,760
Speaker 2: shifted their worldview in light of the near death experiences.

992
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,280
Speaker 2: So when we are confronted with something that challenges our worldview,

993
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 2: either we can dismiss it or we can shift our worldview.

994
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 2: That's what I'm hoping skeptics might do when they see this,

995
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 2: given the number of cases and the unique, evidential, just

996
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:29,919
Speaker 2: fascinating value of children, I'm hoping that might give them

997
00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:31,240
Speaker 2: at least some pause.

998
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: Now coming out of that, Yeah, I think an interesting thing.

999
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 4: Is that some some atheists who have not read in

1000
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:42,320
Speaker 4: this area will say, oh, well, this is just Christian

1001
00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,800
Speaker 4: researchers trying to affirm their worldviews. But as you mentioned,

1002
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 4: people like von Lameo, doctor Sebom, these others that doctor Grayson,

1003
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 4: these were not evangelical Christians from the start trying to

1004
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 4: defe in their worldview.

1005
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: They were startled this.

1006
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 4: It was like they came into this thing kicking and screaming,

1007
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 4: not believing that these were really experiences with the afterlife.

1008
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:15,719
Speaker 4: And then after their study and after a whole lifetime

1009
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:18,600
Speaker 4: of studying, these are some of the best researchers they

1010
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 4: believe these people were coming out of their bodies. Now, interestingly,

1011
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 4: the atheists that I see arguing against near death experiences,

1012
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 4: they were already outspoken atheists before they ever got into

1013
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 4: near death experiences. So it looks to me like there's

1014
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:37,479
Speaker 4: a lot more potential for them to be placing their

1015
00:57:37,520 --> 00:57:40,800
Speaker 4: worldview over this and seeing it through their lens rather

1016
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 4: than being able to look objectively at the evidence.

1017
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,600
Speaker 2: Perhaps the most common objection I hear, and this is

1018
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 2: with say, the evidence surrounding historical Jesus, more so in

1019
00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,160
Speaker 2: the area of intelligent design, is just God of the gaps.

1020
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 3: There's some facts that we can't fully explain. We don't know.

1021
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 2: But rather than saying God did this, let's allow science

1022
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 2: to advance and eventually we'll discover a reason. So positing

1023
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,960
Speaker 2: his soul, posing it afterlife is kind of a God

1024
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 2: of the gaps. That number one prevents science from moving

1025
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:15,880
Speaker 2: forward because now you say God did it, so there's

1026
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 2: no reason to probe further for a naturalistic explanation, and

1027
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 2: it posits an unjustified pointer towards something beyond science. So

1028
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 2: what's your take on this being a God of the

1029
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 2: gaps kind of argument?

1030
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:33,920
Speaker 4: Sure, well, that's interesting because Dr Moody from the start,

1031
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,840
Speaker 4: if you read his books, it's almost frustrating. Doctor Kubler

1032
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 4: Ross would speak with doctor Moody, who did the first

1033
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 4: really popular study of experience nineteen seventy five is when

1034
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 4: he published his book Life after Life, and would he

1035
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 4: would give all this stuff that was very consistent with

1036
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 4: theism and with the afterlife as he described, and then

1037
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 4: would come to the end and he would say something like,

1038
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 4: but of course these are just anecdotes. I suld be,

1039
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 4: what what are you talking about? I mean, this is

1040
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 4: really powerful evidence. And I asked doctor Mode one time

1041
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 4: on the phone, I said, why is it that it

1042
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 4: took you so long until your later years before you

1043
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:16,760
Speaker 4: finally said, yeah, this is the afterlife. Is the best explanation,

1044
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 4: he said. I was just I always wanted to be

1045
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:22,120
Speaker 4: the Socrates who was just always doubtings. I was afraid

1046
00:59:22,160 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 4: if I came to a conclusion that I'd quit searching.

1047
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,800
Speaker 1: So he really really resisted.

1048
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 4: That, but finally says, yeah, okay, that's about the afterlife,

1049
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,960
Speaker 4: but about the god of the gaps. I love to

1050
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 4: I love to explore caves, particularly wild caves, and but

1051
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:42,840
Speaker 4: I was in a public cave one time and a

1052
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 4: person was showing a formation where it was like on

1053
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 4: a stalagmite hanging down, but there was a curved deposit

1054
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 4: of calcite on it, and they said, we we haven't

1055
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 4: figured out how in the world that happen. That just

1056
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:05,040
Speaker 4: doesn't make sense because drops drop down and deposit there

1057
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 4: why would it go around?

1058
01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:09,320
Speaker 1: And I thought, okay, that's a dear illustration.

1059
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 4: If I say, well, we don't know how it happened,

1060
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 4: therefore God made that. That would be an example of

1061
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:18,080
Speaker 4: God of the gaps. I'm throwing God in there where

1062
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 4: really we ought to wait on a naturalistic explanation for it.

1063
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 4: But in these situations, this is not just throwing God

1064
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 4: in as an explanation. God is already all over the experience.

1065
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:35,440
Speaker 4: This little girl said, I saw the Heavenly Father, I

1066
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 4: saw Jesus, I saw angels. Well, by the virtue of

1067
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 4: the fact that it's already a part of the experience,

1068
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 4: that surely gives us the right to say, well, here's

1069
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 4: one hypothesis.

1070
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: Maybe she really saw God, the Father.

1071
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:53,360
Speaker 4: And Jesus and angels. Okay, so it deserves the right

1072
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 4: to have a hypothesis. To me, when secular people come

1073
01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 4: in and impose their own worldview on them this and say, okay, well,

1074
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 4: there's got to be a naturalistic explanation. Let's just we

1075
01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 4: don't know the naturalistic explanation for NDEs, but we should

1076
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:13,440
Speaker 4: await a naturalistic suggestion. I'd say, well, that's called naturalism

1077
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:17,400
Speaker 4: of the gaps, where you just take your naturalistic worldview

1078
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 4: and you impose it on whatever you see and assume

1079
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 4: there will be a naturalistic answer.

1080
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:24,720
Speaker 1: So if they say, oh, well, we ought to wait.

1081
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:27,680
Speaker 4: And see a future evidence, and I'll say, but I

1082
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:32,320
Speaker 4: can't make my decisions on anything with future evidence.

1083
01:01:32,360 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 1: That's all hypothetical.

1084
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 4: I can only deal with the evidence as I see it,

1085
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 4: and to me, the evidence weighs heavily in the favor

1086
01:01:40,560 --> 01:01:42,240
Speaker 4: of the afterlife hypothesis.

1087
01:01:42,600 --> 01:01:44,919
Speaker 2: You've written four books on this that people can get

1088
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 2: either on Amazon or you'll email PDFs to them for free,

1089
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:49,600
Speaker 2: which is amazing.

1090
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:51,800
Speaker 3: You've brought a lot of these books. You've researched this

1091
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 3: a ton.

1092
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,000
Speaker 2: Are there any just final remarks related to kids and

1093
01:01:56,200 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 2: NDEs or deathbed experiences We didn't cover that you want

1094
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:02,400
Speaker 2: to you feel like we laid it out there.

1095
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 4: I'd say, what is it profit a man to gain

1096
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 4: the whole world and lose or forfeit his soul? Jesus

1097
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 4: said that, you know, when I was young in my

1098
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 4: spiritual journey that during my times of faith, that reassured

1099
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 4: me I was going in the right direction. When I

1100
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 4: was going through doubts, it haunted me. But I believe

1101
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,520
Speaker 4: that what it shows is that this life isn't all

1102
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 4: there is. Why live for things on this earth that

1103
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:37,600
Speaker 4: don't last. Why chase, you know, climbing up the ladder

1104
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:40,840
Speaker 4: of success, but then finding at the end of your

1105
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,360
Speaker 4: life that it was leaning against the wrong wall. That

1106
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 4: just doesn't make sense when in the light of even

1107
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:48,720
Speaker 4: if you're not a Christian, but just in the light

1108
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 4: of near death and deathbed research showing that there's something

1109
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 4: much more glorious that's offered to us afterwards, and that

1110
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:59,360
Speaker 4: children have preceded us sometimes there and have told us

1111
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 4: in their transition, oh my goodness, this is where I

1112
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:04,120
Speaker 4: want to go.

1113
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 1: This is my ultimate home. That's what we need to

1114
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: be living for.

1115
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 4: And if you have a lot of uncertainties regarding religion,

1116
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 4: some of these people saw Jesus. I would recommend heavily

1117
01:03:17,120 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 4: that you seek Jesus. The earliest and best documents we

1118
01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:24,680
Speaker 4: have on him are the documents contained in the New Testament. Matthew,

1119
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,320
Speaker 4: Mark Luke, and John the Apostle. Paul was a contemporary

1120
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:31,440
Speaker 4: of Jesus, born about the same time he wrote about Jesus.

1121
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 4: I'd say go back to these documents if you are

1122
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 4: searching for reality. And spiritual things and for meaning in

1123
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:45,960
Speaker 4: life beyond this material world. Seek Jesus, and yes, read

1124
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:48,120
Speaker 4: my books. I've tried to do the best I could

1125
01:03:48,240 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 4: on researching the best research and giving it to you

1126
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 4: in a way that's understandable and actually readable. So I

1127
01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 4: think I've given people a way to search with plenty

1128
01:03:58,720 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 4: of documentation.

1129
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:01,720
Speaker 1: If you want to go further, you definitely have.

1130
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:03,840
Speaker 2: And I had one last question for somebody as we've

1131
01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:08,200
Speaker 2: answered this, But if somebody says, hey, can I talk

1132
01:04:08,200 --> 01:04:08,920
Speaker 2: to you outside?

1133
01:04:08,960 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 3: I have an experience to share with you.

1134
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:16,480
Speaker 2: Here somebody say something conversation that suggests a near death experience,

1135
01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,760
Speaker 2: where we talk with a kid that starts talking about

1136
01:04:19,840 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 2: certain things. You might be tempted to write off as

1137
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:25,960
Speaker 2: just imagination, But now that you've heard this, you think

1138
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:30,040
Speaker 2: maybe they had an experience that was a near death experience.

1139
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 2: How should we respond just pastorally and practically to people

1140
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 2: who have that kind of experience.

1141
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:41,680
Speaker 4: Biblically, be quick to hear and slow to speak, amen

1142
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 4: ask them questions. I hate it when somebody gets back

1143
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 4: from the mission field and people I'll hear a report

1144
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 4: and then never ask them anything else about it. This

1145
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 4: may be the most important thing in the person's life. Well,

1146
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 4: these people have been to the other side. I'm calling

1147
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:01,200
Speaker 4: it the other side. I don't want to talk about

1148
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,360
Speaker 4: as if it's the final New Heavens and New Earth

1149
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 4: or something like that.

1150
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:07,760
Speaker 1: But they've they've been on the other side. They've talked

1151
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 1: to the deceased, they've had maybe had a life review.

1152
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 4: This is by far the most important thing that's ever

1153
01:05:13,720 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 4: happened to them. Talk to them about it. Let's listen

1154
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 4: to them, ask them more questions. What I find is

1155
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,120
Speaker 4: that often they'll kind of just say, well, I had

1156
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:27,920
Speaker 4: an experience like that once. They're just testing you to see, okay,

1157
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 4: if you're going to change the subject, they're not going

1158
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 4: to go there. Some of the people that tell me

1159
01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 4: that this about their experiences will say, you're the only

1160
01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:38,320
Speaker 4: person I've ever told about this. They're so so afraid

1161
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 4: people will think they're crazy.

1162
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 1: So ask them more questions.

1163
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 4: Taught them and say, you know, I'd like to talk

1164
01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 4: more about this in the future.

1165
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 1: Would you mind talking to me more?

1166
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:50,360
Speaker 4: And what you'll find is this is just a wonderful

1167
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 4: ministry opportunity because typically they haven't found anybody that wants

1168
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:58,080
Speaker 4: to carry on a conversation about this, or you could say,

1169
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:00,200
Speaker 4: you know, I need to study this more. Is I

1170
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 4: research and read more on it? Can I come back

1171
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 4: to you and talk to you about their experience? So

1172
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:11,680
Speaker 4: often I've been shocked at people in my church that

1173
01:06:11,680 --> 01:06:14,040
Speaker 4: that I'll begin talking to about this and they'll say, oh,

1174
01:06:14,160 --> 01:06:15,880
Speaker 4: let me tell you about my experience.

1175
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:18,240
Speaker 1: And I'll talk to them there.

1176
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 4: But then I'll write down some more thoughts about it

1177
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 4: that I want to ask, and I'll say, okay, well is.

1178
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 1: This like fairly real?

1179
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 4: Was this as real as you know, a vivid dream?

1180
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 4: What degree of reality was it? And They'll come back

1181
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 4: and say, oh, it was.

1182
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 1: It was real.

1183
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:41,560
Speaker 4: It was just as us talking here today. And I

1184
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 4: asked them those questions, and it still to this day

1185
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,640
Speaker 4: it just seems sends shivers down my spine when I

1186
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 4: have people I know and trust get them talking. Listen,

1187
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 4: We've got a lot to learn from these people, Steve.

1188
01:06:54,440 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 2: There's a lot of reasons why I enjoy having you

1189
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 2: on as a guests. One of the things you do

1190
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 2: is you go back through as many of the comments

1191
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 2: as you can, and you respond to skeptics as you

1192
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 2: can with questions.

1193
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 3: You hear people's stories, give them counsel.

1194
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 2: So, as I've said on some of the previous videos,

1195
01:07:09,360 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 2: if people listening had a near death experience, if you

1196
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 2: saw somebody have a deathbed experience, especially if you had

1197
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:21,160
Speaker 2: one as a child, please share it here. Lie Strouble

1198
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 2: interviewed you for his book on Seeing the Supernatural, and

1199
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 2: one of his responses of looking through some of my

1200
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 2: videos interviewing you was he expected all this criticism and attack,

1201
01:07:31,520 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 2: and it was story after story after story of people

1202
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,800
Speaker 2: sharing and in many cases saying, this is the first

1203
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 2: time I've shared. Thanks for listening, thanks for giving me

1204
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 2: a platform. So please comment with a story below. We

1205
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 2: would love to hear your account on this video. Now

1206
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 2: you and I are about to shift because we have

1207
01:07:49,840 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 2: about eight or ten students in studio that are in

1208
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 2: a class right now called after Life Apologetics that you

1209
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:59,040
Speaker 2: are teaching with me here at Top School Theology. Now

1210
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 2: this will not be aired our interaction, so people listening

1211
01:08:02,640 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 2: to this are going, wait a minute, how do I

1212
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:06,240
Speaker 2: get it in on this? And the answer is you

1213
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 2: join us in theme Apologize program here at Talbot School

1214
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 2: of Theology. This is a class we want to teach again.

1215
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 2: So if you're listening. You're fascinated by this, pick up

1216
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 2: Steve's books. That's a great place to start. I've actually

1217
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 2: just yesterday, as we're recording this, created a playlist that

1218
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 2: has all of our interviews on near death experiences, as

1219
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 2: well as Sabon and von Lamel and Jeffrey Long and

1220
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 2: John Burke, some of the leaders in this. For people

1221
01:08:32,600 --> 01:08:35,519
Speaker 2: who want to go back and study, we have crossed

1222
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 2: almost every t and dotted the eyes and if you

1223
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 2: have some ideas, wait a minute, somebody hasn't done this

1224
01:08:40,200 --> 01:08:43,200
Speaker 2: on near death experiences. Let us know and maybe we'll

1225
01:08:43,200 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 2: revisit it if we could do it in a way

1226
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:48,799
Speaker 2: that would be helpful. Steve always enjoys gives your email

1227
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:51,200
Speaker 2: one more time. For people who would want a PDF

1228
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:51,879
Speaker 2: of your boss.

1229
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:52,800
Speaker 1: Sure the letter J J.

1230
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 4: Steve Miller at gmail dot com and yeah, let me

1231
01:08:57,240 --> 01:08:59,200
Speaker 4: know if you need a copy. I send them out

1232
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:03,640
Speaker 4: and appreciate your candid input. We have good conversations.

1233
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:04,840
Speaker 3: You're awesome. Thanks brother.

1234
01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 2: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

1235
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 2: foll button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

1236
01:09:10,960 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge

1237
01:09:13,320 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

1238
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:20,479
Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

1239
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

1240
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

1241
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,160
Speaker 2: where we have on campus and online programs and apologetic

1242
01:09:31,200 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 2: spiritual formation, marriage and family, Bible and so much more.

1243
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 2: We would love to train you to more effectively live, teach,

1244
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 2: and defend the Christian faith today and we will see

1245
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 2: you when the next episode drops.