1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm Dr. 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:05,740 Speaker 2: James Spencer, and I'm joined again today by Troy Miller. 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:10,010 Speaker 2: He is the president and CEO of National Religious Broadcasters. 4 00:00:10,090 --> 00:00:11,650 Speaker 2: And today, we're going to be talking a little bit 5 00:00:11,690 --> 00:00:16,529 Speaker 2: about the Johnson Amendment and more specifically about some legal 6 00:00:17,110 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 2: happenings in relation to the Johnson Amendment that have been 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:22,100 Speaker 2: keeping you busy, Troy. 8 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:22,730 Speaker 1: So.... 9 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,829 Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. And I'm actually looking forward 10 00:00:26,850 --> 00:00:30,430 Speaker 2: to having the conversation. So why don't we start? Just 11 00:00:30,470 --> 00:00:33,900 Speaker 2: give us a little background on how everything you're dealing 12 00:00:33,940 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 2: with came about. 13 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:36,180 Speaker 1: Sure. 14 00:00:36,540 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 3: And it's great to be. 15 00:00:37,260 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: With you again. 16 00:00:38,140 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 3: So, yeah, exciting times we live in. No shortage of 17 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 3: work and things to do. So, you know, back in 1954. So, 18 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,420 Speaker 3: you know, it's interesting that let me start back a 19 00:00:47,420 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 3: little bit. We're celebrating the 250th anniversary of our country 20 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 3: right this year. So we had all of those things 21 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 3: going through. So we're about 170 years of this country. 22 00:00:57,190 --> 00:01:02,390 Speaker 3: pastors were some of the most influential people in the 23 00:01:02,430 --> 00:01:05,789 Speaker 3: culture today and even in politics. So we could go 24 00:01:05,810 --> 00:01:08,390 Speaker 3: all the way back to the Black Robe Regiment during 25 00:01:08,410 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 3: the Revolution. It was their preaching, often recognized by the 26 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 3: British as the source of the Revolution itself. So we 27 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 3: have that there. And then for 170 years, pastors spoke 28 00:01:20,819 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 3: up about religious issues, issues of faith, issues of conscience, 29 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,100 Speaker 3: that they felt that God was calling them to shepherd 30 00:01:30,140 --> 00:01:35,820 Speaker 3: their congregants about, including candidates for political office. Well, 1954, 31 00:01:35,819 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 3: along comes then-Senator Lyndon B. Johnson. He has a very tough, 32 00:01:42,300 --> 00:01:46,810 Speaker 3: contentious Senate race in Texas. He's opposed by a number 33 00:01:46,870 --> 00:01:52,260 Speaker 3: of nonprofit organizations and a number of churches. as well. 34 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,820 Speaker 3: So he gets into the Senate, he wins that election, 35 00:01:54,860 --> 00:01:58,100 Speaker 3: he gets into the Senate, and he attaches this bill, 36 00:01:59,100 --> 00:02:02,810 Speaker 3: which we now call the Johnson Amendment, to the tax code. 37 00:02:02,930 --> 00:02:06,510 Speaker 3: And what this does is three things. First, it limits 38 00:02:06,570 --> 00:02:13,130 Speaker 3: the amount of, well, sorry, it prohibits any contributions by 39 00:02:13,810 --> 00:02:19,389 Speaker 3: 501c3s directly to political campaigns. then it prohibits the endorsement 40 00:02:19,750 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 3: or the opposition by 501c3s to political campaigns or candidates. 41 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 3: And then it limits the amount of lobbying that an 42 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,380 Speaker 3: organization can do on a bill that runs through Congress. 43 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,380 Speaker 3: So as you can imagine, this passed. It never went 44 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,180 Speaker 3: up to a vote in the Senate. It was an amendment, 45 00:02:39,260 --> 00:02:44,370 Speaker 3: went through the technical process and became law. Well, So 46 00:02:44,590 --> 00:02:48,690 Speaker 3: since it's had a very chilling effect on our pulpits 47 00:02:49,570 --> 00:02:53,269 Speaker 3: across this country. So we, in 2024, decided we're going 48 00:02:53,290 --> 00:02:56,049 Speaker 3: to write this wrong. And we're not asking for a 49 00:02:56,900 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 3: new right for our pastors. We're asking them to restore 50 00:02:59,780 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 3: a right they had for 170 years. 51 00:03:02,860 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 2: So what was the impetus then in 2024 for this? 52 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,380 Speaker 2: Was there some sort of incident that sort of really 53 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:12,590 Speaker 2: made this raise to the top of the priority list, 54 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:13,060 Speaker 2: so to speak? 55 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,340 Speaker 3: Well, it's really been building, I'd say, over the last 56 00:03:16,380 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: kind of two decades, because what we've seen is the 57 00:03:19,740 --> 00:03:24,830 Speaker 3: IRS kind of unequally apply the pressure using this ruling. 58 00:03:24,930 --> 00:03:27,290 Speaker 3: So if you go back all the way back to 59 00:03:27,310 --> 00:03:33,010 Speaker 3: the Obama campaign, we had then-candidate Barack Obama go to 60 00:03:33,370 --> 00:03:37,390 Speaker 3: several churches where he stood in pulpits next to pastors 61 00:03:37,450 --> 00:03:41,250 Speaker 3: who flat out endorsed him. But at the same time, 62 00:03:41,790 --> 00:03:47,010 Speaker 3: the Republican candidates... went to churches, were simply prayed for, 63 00:03:47,210 --> 00:03:49,970 Speaker 3: and they received an IRS letter. So this happened during 64 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 3: the Obama candidacies. This happened again during Hillary Clinton's time. 65 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 3: It happened with Joe Biden and, of course, we just 66 00:03:58,620 --> 00:04:01,660 Speaker 3: saw it in the last election with Kamala Harris. And 67 00:04:01,910 --> 00:04:05,930 Speaker 3: every time there were letters that were sent out to conservative, quote, 68 00:04:05,970 --> 00:04:09,450 Speaker 3: churches who may have had a candidate at their church, 69 00:04:10,150 --> 00:04:12,070 Speaker 3: and by the way, we didn't have a single incidence 70 00:04:12,250 --> 00:04:15,410 Speaker 3: of where a pastor actually endorsed the candidate. Just, it 71 00:04:15,450 --> 00:04:17,470 Speaker 3: was enough for the IRS to send a letter, just 72 00:04:17,490 --> 00:04:20,190 Speaker 3: to have the candidate at their church. Uh, and so 73 00:04:20,230 --> 00:04:22,650 Speaker 3: we said enough is enough. It's time to get this 74 00:04:22,779 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 3: to wrong this right. And we took the, uh, IRS 75 00:04:26,100 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 3: and the, and the Biden administration in 2024 to court. 76 00:04:30,020 --> 00:04:34,280 Speaker 2: So there's a, it's the unevenness in the enforcement and, um, 77 00:04:35,140 --> 00:04:39,860 Speaker 2: seeking of balancing the scales on this issue. So initially, 78 00:04:40,260 --> 00:04:43,770 Speaker 2: your lawsuit was seeking to repeal the amendment. 79 00:04:44,089 --> 00:04:44,770 Speaker 1: Is that correct? 80 00:04:45,450 --> 00:04:49,070 Speaker 3: Yeah, we were initially seeking for a total repeal of 81 00:04:49,150 --> 00:04:52,590 Speaker 3: the amendment there. And by the way, we think those 82 00:04:52,670 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 3: churches is equal as conservative churches. We think all churches 83 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,110 Speaker 3: have the right to speak up on the conscience that 84 00:04:59,150 --> 00:05:02,210 Speaker 3: God has given them this. But we were seeking, initially 85 00:05:02,270 --> 00:05:06,910 Speaker 3: looking to have this repealed because we think it's a 86 00:05:07,529 --> 00:05:11,150 Speaker 3: First Amendment violation on the freedom of speech. But even 87 00:05:11,210 --> 00:05:14,350 Speaker 3: deeper into it, it's for pastors. It's also a violation 88 00:05:14,430 --> 00:05:16,570 Speaker 3: on their free exercise there of religion. 89 00:05:18,110 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 2: So just to give everybody clarity on what this amendment precludes, 90 00:05:24,529 --> 00:05:28,420 Speaker 2: It is supposed to be, at least, relatively narrow, correct? 91 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,780 Speaker 2: So the things you referenced, like giving money to a 92 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: political campaign, endorsing of specific political candidate, but not necessarily 93 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:42,219 Speaker 2: speaking out on the issues in a more general biblical 94 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:43,500 Speaker 2: and theological manner. 95 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 1: Is that fair, or what would you add? 96 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 3: It is fair. I mean, when you look at the 97 00:05:49,420 --> 00:05:55,650 Speaker 3: Johnson Amendment itself, it talks about specifically endorsing or opposing candidates. 98 00:05:56,770 --> 00:06:00,070 Speaker 3: But look, there's a bit of interpretation there for the IRS, 99 00:06:00,450 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 3: especially since the McCain-Feingold Act went into place in 2007, 100 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 3: because that one limited organizations from speaking on what they 101 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:14,990 Speaker 3: call political issues to as they related to a candidate. 102 00:06:15,410 --> 00:06:21,470 Speaker 3: And that act directly references the Johnson Amendment when it 103 00:06:21,510 --> 00:06:26,369 Speaker 3: came to nonprofit organizations. They said, hey, nonprofits aren't supposed 104 00:06:26,390 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 3: to do this because of the Johnson Amendment. So therefore, 105 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:34,770 Speaker 3: that applies for them. So The IRS could interpret you 106 00:06:34,830 --> 00:06:38,190 Speaker 3: by saying, look, if a pastor did a pro-life sermon 107 00:06:38,970 --> 00:06:41,870 Speaker 3: and then happened to say candidate A is pro-life and 108 00:06:41,930 --> 00:06:46,930 Speaker 3: candidate B is not, that could be interpreted as an 109 00:06:47,010 --> 00:06:48,550 Speaker 3: endorsement and an opposition. 110 00:06:49,350 --> 00:06:53,790 Speaker 2: Yeah, as opposed to a description that could be entailed 111 00:06:53,850 --> 00:06:55,270 Speaker 2: as an endorsement in the. 112 00:06:56,970 --> 00:06:57,810 Speaker 1: That's interesting. 113 00:06:58,770 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 2: I think that's an important wrinkle to bring out here 114 00:07:01,540 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 2: is that these are constantly issues that are being navigated 115 00:07:05,779 --> 00:07:09,850 Speaker 2: by various churches and organizations such as NRB. And so 116 00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:12,270 Speaker 2: this isn't coming out of nowhere. But I think for 117 00:07:12,510 --> 00:07:14,410 Speaker 2: a lot of people when they first, I know when 118 00:07:14,450 --> 00:07:16,050 Speaker 2: I first heard about it, I was just kind of 119 00:07:16,090 --> 00:07:18,770 Speaker 2: sitting back like, I wonder why this is coming up 120 00:07:18,930 --> 00:07:23,390 Speaker 2: now and what the real implications of this are, given 121 00:07:23,470 --> 00:07:27,970 Speaker 2: what I understood initially about what was precluded speech for 122 00:07:28,010 --> 00:07:29,490 Speaker 2: a nonprofit organization. 123 00:07:29,510 --> 00:07:31,930 Speaker 1: So that's a really helpful reframing. 124 00:07:33,230 --> 00:07:37,810 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, there are several things like organizations can put 125 00:07:37,890 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 3: out voters guides that are equal and those sort of things. 126 00:07:41,130 --> 00:07:44,180 Speaker 3: But for the pastor to actually speak about it from 127 00:07:44,190 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 3: the pulpit and then, you know, in today's world, through 128 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 3: the media that those pastors have, if they do a 129 00:07:51,500 --> 00:07:55,710 Speaker 3: direct endorsement or opposition, you're probably going to get a 130 00:07:55,730 --> 00:07:57,590 Speaker 3: letter from the IRS. And let me be clear here. 131 00:07:58,070 --> 00:08:01,210 Speaker 3: We didn't ask the IRS. We agree that the first 132 00:08:01,330 --> 00:08:05,570 Speaker 3: one churches shouldn't be giving to campaigns, 501c3s. We didn't 133 00:08:05,670 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: ask for a change of that. We didn't ask in 134 00:08:07,500 --> 00:08:10,980 Speaker 3: the lobby. Those two we get, we understand. It's that 135 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:15,820 Speaker 3: middle one. in that middle, that that restriction comes, as 136 00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 3: we believe, in a conflict with our First Amendment right. 137 00:08:20,240 --> 00:08:26,130 Speaker 2: Yeah, so not a deeper fiscal, we might say, or 138 00:08:26,870 --> 00:08:32,710 Speaker 2: even physical activation of politics within the church. So what 139 00:08:32,750 --> 00:08:35,470 Speaker 2: I mean by that is the activation of that lobbying 140 00:08:35,650 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: aspect or the distribution of funds to a candidate. That's 141 00:08:40,059 --> 00:08:44,059 Speaker 2: not really what you're seeking. It's really at what point 142 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,010 Speaker 2: does the preaching of the word of God have to 143 00:08:48,050 --> 00:08:54,270 Speaker 2: be given pride of place, even if in the course 144 00:08:54,309 --> 00:08:58,969 Speaker 2: of that preaching, you end up endorsing one candidate over another. 145 00:09:00,050 --> 00:09:04,470 Speaker 2: And if a pastor can't do that, then there is 146 00:09:04,490 --> 00:09:08,860 Speaker 2: a limitation on religious speech that you want to protect. 147 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: That's right. That's a fair statement of that issue. 148 00:09:13,059 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 3: That's a fair statement. You said it very well. And look, 149 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,719 Speaker 3: we see that our country is founded on the basics 150 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,860 Speaker 3: of freedom. And one of the key freedoms, the whole 151 00:09:24,980 --> 00:09:28,179 Speaker 3: idea behind the First Amendment, the whole idea of the 152 00:09:28,340 --> 00:09:32,420 Speaker 3: freedom of religion and the free exercise thereof, was that 153 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 3: the founding fathers saw that it was not the government's 154 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 3: role to step in to be the conscience for any 155 00:09:40,700 --> 00:09:45,050 Speaker 3: religious leader. That was between that leader and God and 156 00:09:45,110 --> 00:09:48,630 Speaker 3: their faith, and that was not the government's role. As 157 00:09:48,650 --> 00:09:51,830 Speaker 3: a matter of fact, that's the original meaning of the 158 00:09:51,910 --> 00:09:54,890 Speaker 3: intent of the separation of church and state, is the 159 00:09:55,010 --> 00:09:58,210 Speaker 3: state was to stay out of the matters of the church. 160 00:09:59,550 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 3: And you saw, again, as I said this, we could 161 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:08,260 Speaker 3: look at history, and pastors have constantly and consistently spoken 162 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:12,089 Speaker 3: up on what we would call cultural issues, issues that 163 00:10:12,510 --> 00:10:16,390 Speaker 3: are political issues that have become political, but really at 164 00:10:16,429 --> 00:10:21,089 Speaker 3: their core, they're spiritual faith issues, moral issues. that congregants 165 00:10:21,110 --> 00:10:25,170 Speaker 3: want to hear their pastor speak about, including pastors, as 166 00:10:25,230 --> 00:10:29,100 Speaker 3: I said, during Johnson's own run for the Senate, there 167 00:10:29,140 --> 00:10:33,380 Speaker 3: were multiple churches who directly opposed his candidacy. 168 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,940 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, it's interesting. 169 00:10:37,620 --> 00:10:40,830 Speaker 2: I think that as I thought about this issue, just 170 00:10:40,870 --> 00:10:43,030 Speaker 2: in preparation for the interview and reading all the different 171 00:10:43,050 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 2: things that I had, I mean, I had A couple 172 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:49,260 Speaker 2: of concerns I was sort of balancing, which is, number one, obviously, 173 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,150 Speaker 2: I think free speech is a really important aspect of 174 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 2: what we have in this country, and it should be respected, 175 00:10:54,210 --> 00:10:58,330 Speaker 2: particularly religious speech. And so, you know, as Christians, we're 176 00:10:58,370 --> 00:11:01,610 Speaker 2: always prepared to pay the consequences for exercising the freedom 177 00:11:01,630 --> 00:11:02,590 Speaker 2: that we have in Christ. 178 00:11:03,190 --> 00:11:03,850 Speaker 1: That's a given. 179 00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:08,599 Speaker 2: At the same time, we would sure like government protections 180 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: to be what they are and for the government to 181 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:12,860 Speaker 2: work through what it's promised to give us. And so 182 00:11:12,900 --> 00:11:15,540 Speaker 2: I think that this sort of navigation is really crucial. 183 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:21,730 Speaker 2: The other side of it is just my gut reaction 184 00:11:21,790 --> 00:11:25,610 Speaker 2: to it was, man– it really seems like I would 185 00:11:25,650 --> 00:11:29,310 Speaker 2: really hope that certain pastors I could see, I wouldn't 186 00:11:29,370 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 2: really want speaking out on politics. And you have that 187 00:11:33,780 --> 00:11:36,740 Speaker 2: double-edged sword. Whenever we have these sort of issues of 188 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,540 Speaker 2: freedom of speech, we ultimately allow speech that we disagree 189 00:11:40,620 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 2: with or that might even be damaging to the cause 190 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: of Christ to get out. How do you think through 191 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: some of those issues? Maybe not from a legal perspective. 192 00:11:50,980 --> 00:11:54,929 Speaker 2: I think that's fairly clear cut, but just from a 193 00:11:54,990 --> 00:11:59,090 Speaker 2: biblical and theological perspective, given the scope of organizations you 194 00:11:59,130 --> 00:12:00,150 Speaker 2: represent at NRB? 195 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:02,250 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you're right. 196 00:12:02,270 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 3: We do sit down and think through these issues, and 197 00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:10,820 Speaker 3: both from a legal aspect, because sometimes that's the environment 198 00:12:10,860 --> 00:12:15,020 Speaker 3: we're dealing in here. But really, when you step back 199 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,020 Speaker 3: and think about it from just a scriptural and a 200 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,380 Speaker 3: moral kind of view, and we look at the scriptures, 201 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,750 Speaker 3: and one of the things that we understand about Christianity 202 00:12:25,809 --> 00:12:29,390 Speaker 3: is Christianity has always been on the move, right? It's 203 00:12:29,510 --> 00:12:33,109 Speaker 3: always on the go. It's always going. It's never meant 204 00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:35,770 Speaker 3: to be stagnant or stand still. As a matter of fact, 205 00:12:35,790 --> 00:12:39,150 Speaker 3: Scripture tells us that the gospel is so powerful that 206 00:12:39,210 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 3: even the gates of hell can't stand against us. And 207 00:12:42,429 --> 00:12:46,599 Speaker 3: so we kind of come back and look and say, look, 208 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 3: I have enough confidence in the gospel and have confidence 209 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 3: in God that the gospel can stand not just toe 210 00:12:54,380 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 3: to toe, but stand on top of any other worldview 211 00:12:58,980 --> 00:13:02,380 Speaker 3: that's out there. And so we know that when we 212 00:13:02,660 --> 00:13:06,130 Speaker 3: look at the freedom of speech and the freedom of religion, 213 00:13:06,850 --> 00:13:10,689 Speaker 3: oftentimes that means that us as looking at this, we're 214 00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:14,030 Speaker 3: going to allow, as you said, voices that we would 215 00:13:14,250 --> 00:13:17,330 Speaker 3: definitely oppose and not agree with. We're going to allow 216 00:13:17,390 --> 00:13:19,650 Speaker 3: those voices to be in the public sector as well. 217 00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 3: as well but i i really think that the it 218 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 3: really comes back to how much trust and and we 219 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 3: have in the gospel itself and and in christ and 220 00:13:29,340 --> 00:13:29,980 Speaker 3: in god. 221 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:34,819 Speaker 2: Yeah helpful so where is this at right now i 222 00:13:34,820 --> 00:13:40,070 Speaker 2: i know that there was a consent agreement um that 223 00:13:40,179 --> 00:13:44,569 Speaker 2: was put in place that was um I think a 224 00:13:44,650 --> 00:13:49,890 Speaker 2: district court denied that consent agreement between the parties in 225 00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:53,750 Speaker 2: the lawsuit. Can you kind of narrate through where we're 226 00:13:53,790 --> 00:13:56,500 Speaker 2: at in the process and maybe what's coming next? 227 00:13:57,420 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. So we brought this case in 2024 when the 228 00:14:01,580 --> 00:14:08,020 Speaker 3: Biden administration was in and the Justice Department there really 229 00:14:08,140 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 3: actually had a couple of different motions to dismiss the 230 00:14:11,100 --> 00:14:14,350 Speaker 3: case based on some grounds. And the judge said, allowed 231 00:14:14,370 --> 00:14:16,510 Speaker 3: the case to go forward and wanted to hear or 232 00:14:17,030 --> 00:14:19,650 Speaker 3: at least see the merits of the case. So that 233 00:14:19,690 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 3: went through 24. And then, of course, Trump won in 25. 234 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 3: And we had a new Justice Department. And so when 235 00:14:27,060 --> 00:14:29,300 Speaker 3: they started to go through and look at their cases, 236 00:14:29,380 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 3: they asked to sit down and we sat down with them. 237 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,210 Speaker 3: And we came, as you said, to this consent decree. 238 00:14:35,630 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 3: And what that means is we both came to the 239 00:14:40,240 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 3: point where they said, look, we agree with what you're 240 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,420 Speaker 3: saying in regards to pastors, okay? So you're looking at 241 00:14:48,660 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 3: all 501c3s and getting this thrown out. We're looking at 242 00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 3: an exception in the rule that says that pastors would 243 00:14:57,660 --> 00:15:02,990 Speaker 3: be an exemption out of this, and their preaching and 244 00:15:03,050 --> 00:15:05,250 Speaker 3: what they're messaging and what they do in the pulpit 245 00:15:05,410 --> 00:15:09,500 Speaker 3: and what they do through the mediums is going to 246 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 3: be looked at as an okay, right? And so we 247 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 3: came to that. We got through the whole legal process 248 00:15:17,060 --> 00:15:19,220 Speaker 3: with a number of things. And then the judge at 249 00:15:19,260 --> 00:15:22,020 Speaker 3: the end came back with this kind of what we 250 00:15:22,060 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 3: call more of a technical ruling. There's what's called the 251 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 3: Anti-Injunction Act. Congress limited the courts on what they can 252 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,020 Speaker 3: do as regarded to tax law. So the IRS has 253 00:15:33,060 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 3: a really broad kind of spectrum that they could do 254 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,860 Speaker 3: when it comes to taxes in Congress. And so the 255 00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:43,940 Speaker 3: judge said, based on the Anti-Injunction Act, I can't rule 256 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,100 Speaker 3: on this. Therefore, I'm dismissing the case. And so that's 257 00:15:48,140 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 3: what we've now appealed in that district to the 5th 258 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,660 Speaker 3: District Court of Appeals. We've appealed that the judge is 259 00:15:56,740 --> 00:16:00,900 Speaker 3: ruling to dismiss the case. And so that setting now 260 00:16:00,970 --> 00:16:04,030 Speaker 3: with the 5th Circuit Our brief has been filed. The 261 00:16:04,090 --> 00:16:08,410 Speaker 3: government's brief has been filed. Nothing has changed from the 262 00:16:08,450 --> 00:16:12,030 Speaker 3: consent decree where we're at in the district court. This 263 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:16,100 Speaker 3: is now about whether the judge actually can rule on this. 264 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 3: Both ours and the government think that there are exceptions 265 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,220 Speaker 3: that allows the court to rule on this, especially with 266 00:16:24,260 --> 00:16:28,860 Speaker 3: the conflict of a First Amendment conflict here. And so 267 00:16:28,890 --> 00:16:31,700 Speaker 3: we're in this period where other briefs can be filed 268 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 3: and then we hope to hear either a ruling from 269 00:16:35,060 --> 00:16:38,380 Speaker 3: the Fifth Circuit or they'll set up a hearing and 270 00:16:38,420 --> 00:16:40,740 Speaker 3: we'll argue the case in front of them. 271 00:16:42,020 --> 00:16:47,300 Speaker 2: And so there's been a brief submitted that talks a 272 00:16:47,340 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 2: little bit about a narrow aspect of the case, which 273 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,420 Speaker 2: seems to get at that notion that you just mentioned. 274 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,380 Speaker 2: It's not about broadly 501c3 organizations. It's about pastors and 275 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: their congregations. And what would it ever look like for 276 00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:05,370 Speaker 2: the government to come in and say, no, a pastor 277 00:17:05,410 --> 00:17:10,770 Speaker 2: can't say that to their congregation? These things really do, 278 00:17:11,330 --> 00:17:15,090 Speaker 2: on some level, if I'm being generous, they can be 279 00:17:15,130 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 2: viewed as safeguards. right, you could see a certain logic 280 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:27,869 Speaker 2: of guarding against a 501c3 organization, getting into politics, endorsing candidates, 281 00:17:27,900 --> 00:17:30,290 Speaker 2: all those other kinds of things. But then this is 282 00:17:30,350 --> 00:17:34,149 Speaker 2: rubbing right against sort of the religious freedom of speech 283 00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:38,429 Speaker 2: and the religious freedoms that we have in churches. And 284 00:17:38,470 --> 00:17:41,129 Speaker 2: so is that what this new brief is really about? 285 00:17:41,330 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: It's about sort of setting into this Fifth Appellate Court 286 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:49,940 Speaker 2: and saying, look, there's this very narrow space here that 287 00:17:49,980 --> 00:17:52,900 Speaker 2: really seems like could be given judgment. 288 00:17:53,380 --> 00:17:54,780 Speaker 1: Am I understanding all that correctly? 289 00:17:55,740 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, for the most part, that's correct. I mean, the 290 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 3: consent decree is that very narrowing of the case, the 291 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,270 Speaker 3: very narrowing of what we've come to an agreement with 292 00:18:07,290 --> 00:18:10,869 Speaker 3: the government on. So we've narrowed that from the broader 293 00:18:12,020 --> 00:18:15,820 Speaker 3: you know, 501c3s in general down to, you know, pastors 294 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 3: in pulpits, leading churches, leading congregations. 295 00:18:20,260 --> 00:18:21,180 Speaker 1: And so that. 296 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:26,970 Speaker 3: So the appeal is really about this Anti-Injunction Act, this 297 00:18:27,030 --> 00:18:31,869 Speaker 3: technicality that the judge has that he feels like he 298 00:18:31,930 --> 00:18:34,890 Speaker 3: really can't even look at the merits of the consent 299 00:18:34,930 --> 00:18:38,670 Speaker 3: degree itself because this Anti-Injunction Act. So look, it's good 300 00:18:38,730 --> 00:18:42,450 Speaker 3: on the judge's part because if we clear this hurdle, 301 00:18:42,670 --> 00:18:47,590 Speaker 3: then there's really no process for appeal after this. And 302 00:18:47,710 --> 00:18:50,929 Speaker 3: so clearing this hurdle is a big step getting the 303 00:18:50,970 --> 00:18:51,889 Speaker 3: case moving forward. 304 00:18:52,510 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 2: So getting through the appellate court, then it just moves 305 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,980 Speaker 2: through and you can actually get a real judgment on 306 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,610 Speaker 2: this and figure it out. Are are you still seeking 307 00:19:01,670 --> 00:19:04,810 Speaker 2: that repeal of the Johnson Amendment or would you sort 308 00:19:04,850 --> 00:19:07,929 Speaker 2: of readjust and go toward the consent decree? 309 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:13,939 Speaker 3: No, we readjusted toward the consent decree. So that's all 310 00:19:13,980 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 3: where we're at right now. 311 00:19:15,460 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: Very good. Very good. 312 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:23,690 Speaker 2: It's a really interesting problem in question. I mean, it 313 00:19:23,730 --> 00:19:26,530 Speaker 2: gets down to something just as simple like who gets 314 00:19:26,550 --> 00:19:32,270 Speaker 2: to decide– the boundaries of religious speech, which right now, 315 00:19:32,290 --> 00:19:36,270 Speaker 2: and I think what your case is representing is that 316 00:19:36,310 --> 00:19:38,750 Speaker 2: the government shouldn't police those boundaries. 317 00:19:40,369 --> 00:19:41,490 Speaker 1: The difficulty is. 318 00:19:42,070 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 2: As Protestants, we don't have anybody police the boundaries. You know, 319 00:19:47,980 --> 00:19:50,090 Speaker 2: I remember I was just over in Switzerland for a 320 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,850 Speaker 2: Reformation tour, but I've done Germany as well. And You know, 321 00:19:54,150 --> 00:19:57,149 Speaker 2: poor Luther, he goes through the Reformation and there is 322 00:19:57,190 --> 00:19:59,850 Speaker 2: a peasants revolt. He tries to speak into this and say, no, 323 00:19:59,890 --> 00:20:01,430 Speaker 2: this isn't what we should be doing. And they go, 324 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 2: who are you to tell us what to do? We're 325 00:20:03,619 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 2: living according to our conscience. And so you have, you know, 326 00:20:07,140 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 2: you sort of take the good with the bad when 327 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,590 Speaker 2: it comes to the Protestant Reformation and the autonomy. 328 00:20:11,710 --> 00:20:13,150 Speaker 1: Of churches that we have today. 329 00:20:13,869 --> 00:20:17,389 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, even Luther himself, right, at the trial at 330 00:20:17,410 --> 00:20:21,530 Speaker 3: the Nile of Worms, right? He's on a religious trial 331 00:20:21,590 --> 00:20:23,390 Speaker 3: with the court, and what does he come down to? 332 00:20:23,430 --> 00:20:28,209 Speaker 3: The statement, you know? He said, unless you can convince, 333 00:20:28,230 --> 00:20:32,370 Speaker 3: I'm paraphrasing here, convince me from God's word, I have 334 00:20:32,390 --> 00:20:36,689 Speaker 3: to stand my ground because it's neither good nor right 335 00:20:37,260 --> 00:20:43,020 Speaker 3: to violate your conscience, especially your faith conscience, your spiritual conscience. 336 00:20:43,340 --> 00:20:45,580 Speaker 3: And he was saying that the church couldn't do that. 337 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,380 Speaker 3: And the founding fathers understood that. The pilgrims came over. 338 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,340 Speaker 3: the early pilgrims, they were looking for that kind of 339 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:55,820 Speaker 3: religious freedom. They didn't want to be under the thumb 340 00:20:55,859 --> 00:20:58,910 Speaker 3: of the Church of England or the Church of Holland 341 00:20:58,970 --> 00:21:02,490 Speaker 3: or the Netherlands or the various churches or the Catholic Church. 342 00:21:03,030 --> 00:21:06,030 Speaker 3: And so they were looking for that. Even when the 343 00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:10,730 Speaker 3: Danbury Baptists wrote their letter asking Thomas Jefferson, and he 344 00:21:10,790 --> 00:21:14,300 Speaker 3: writes back, you know, there is a wall of separation, 345 00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:19,190 Speaker 3: the most propagandized statement and misunderstood. He was actually talking 346 00:21:19,250 --> 00:21:23,590 Speaker 3: about the very fact that the government was not going 347 00:21:23,650 --> 00:21:27,540 Speaker 3: to establish a national religion. We weren't going to have 348 00:21:27,580 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 3: a Church of America like they had a Church of England. 349 00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 3: And nor was the government going to interfere in church 350 00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:38,959 Speaker 3: matters because government is not equipped to do that. And 351 00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:41,720 Speaker 3: they can't make those theological. But let me give you 352 00:21:41,740 --> 00:21:44,410 Speaker 3: an example of some things that the courts already decided 353 00:21:44,530 --> 00:21:46,740 Speaker 3: on that are kind of parallel to this. There have 354 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,420 Speaker 3: been over the last two decades a number of cases 355 00:21:49,460 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 3: that have made it all the way to the Supreme 356 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 3: Court on religious organizations and their hiring of employees. So 357 00:21:56,700 --> 00:21:59,780 Speaker 3: they can hire. Do they have to follow the same 358 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,179 Speaker 3: laws that a secular organization has to follow? Do they 359 00:22:07,220 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 3: have the same EEOC rules or the same Labor Department 360 00:22:10,340 --> 00:22:14,389 Speaker 3: rules and recently the same DEI rules and those? And 361 00:22:14,410 --> 00:22:20,500 Speaker 3: the courts have consistently said, no, no, the religious organizations 362 00:22:20,580 --> 00:22:25,139 Speaker 3: have the right to hire people who adhere to their faith, 363 00:22:25,220 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 3: their doctrines, and their beliefs. And the government has no 364 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,180 Speaker 3: say into that. And most of those Supreme Court rulings 365 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:37,770 Speaker 3: were 9-0 or 8-1. It wasn't even like a divided court. 366 00:22:37,810 --> 00:22:41,830 Speaker 3: The court has just blanket said this. And this is 367 00:22:41,890 --> 00:22:42,770 Speaker 3: really the same thing. 368 00:22:42,850 --> 00:22:43,470 Speaker 1: If the government. 369 00:22:43,970 --> 00:22:46,820 Speaker 3: continues to weaponize, and this is what we're looking at, 370 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 3: and stepping in in these areas, then we're going to 371 00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,939 Speaker 3: end up like our friends in Canada who have to 372 00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:57,860 Speaker 3: send programs to government regulators to review before they can 373 00:22:57,940 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 3: air and broadcast in Canada. And of course, we've seen 374 00:23:00,859 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 3: what's going on with free speech across Europe. And so 375 00:23:04,580 --> 00:23:06,719 Speaker 3: there's a point where you have to step in and 376 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 3: protect those rights. Otherwise, they're just going to continue to 377 00:23:10,380 --> 00:23:11,060 Speaker 3: be trampled on. 378 00:23:12,430 --> 00:23:14,270 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I did see something. 379 00:23:14,330 --> 00:23:18,670 Speaker 2: I think it was Barker or Baker was the judge 380 00:23:18,710 --> 00:23:21,129 Speaker 2: in the case, if I'm recalling correctly. And he also 381 00:23:21,190 --> 00:23:24,689 Speaker 2: mentioned something about the timing at which the suit was brought, 382 00:23:25,310 --> 00:23:28,670 Speaker 2: that there hadn't been any violation of the Johnson Amendment 383 00:23:28,730 --> 00:23:33,149 Speaker 2: because no 501c3 status had been pulled. There was no 384 00:23:33,530 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: pending action against any specific church. No taxes had been levied, 385 00:23:39,730 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 2: those kind of things. And so he said, because there 386 00:23:43,060 --> 00:23:45,530 Speaker 2: was no violation, this is really an odd time to 387 00:23:45,570 --> 00:23:50,190 Speaker 2: bring the suit. As I thought through that, and I'll 388 00:23:50,790 --> 00:23:53,310 Speaker 2: see if I'm reading you right, there is still an 389 00:23:53,490 --> 00:23:59,220 Speaker 2: irritant here. There's other ways to violate the Johnson Amendment, 390 00:23:59,260 --> 00:24:03,340 Speaker 2: in other words, which would involve sort of poking and 391 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:08,980 Speaker 2: prodding into churches in ways that cost those churches money. 392 00:24:10,210 --> 00:24:14,130 Speaker 2: money for legal fees, irritants for having to spend time 393 00:24:14,230 --> 00:24:16,730 Speaker 2: to justify what it is that they're saying to the 394 00:24:16,869 --> 00:24:19,310 Speaker 2: IRS to ensure that there is some compliance. 395 00:24:19,869 --> 00:24:20,470 Speaker 1: And so. 396 00:24:22,930 --> 00:24:25,570 Speaker 2: I'm getting the sense that that's really more where we're 397 00:24:25,690 --> 00:24:31,350 Speaker 2: at in that irritant phase. You mentioned the uneven enforcement earlier, 398 00:24:31,890 --> 00:24:34,630 Speaker 2: but that irritant phase is really more where we are. 399 00:24:34,850 --> 00:24:38,810 Speaker 2: It's this poking and prodding into the various churches and 400 00:24:38,850 --> 00:24:44,010 Speaker 2: ministries in an investigative manner that would not otherwise be 401 00:24:44,090 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 2: done if this Johnson Amendment weren't in place. 402 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: Is that a fair way to frame it? 403 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,159 Speaker 3: That's a fair statement, and you're exactly right. It's the 404 00:24:55,200 --> 00:25:00,869 Speaker 3: amendment itself, while maybe has not been enforced all the 405 00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:07,490 Speaker 3: way through, multiple churches, and it's been reported, have received, 406 00:25:07,570 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 3: as I said, these letters from And the broader chilling 407 00:25:11,020 --> 00:25:16,379 Speaker 3: effect that that's had on churches, you know, worried about 408 00:25:16,460 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 3: their ability to speak. And also, we just don't like 409 00:25:21,060 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 3: to operate in these gray areas. You know, is the 410 00:25:24,140 --> 00:25:26,660 Speaker 3: IRS going to go and not go? But I think 411 00:25:27,020 --> 00:25:29,869 Speaker 3: our legal team said, look, there's not. And the judge, 412 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,689 Speaker 3: that was one of the reasons to original reasons for 413 00:25:33,730 --> 00:25:38,020 Speaker 3: the case to be dismissed. But there's also legal presidencies. 414 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 3: You don't necessarily have to, especially on these kinds of issues. 415 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:44,010 Speaker 3: It's kind of like saying you have to break the 416 00:25:44,070 --> 00:25:47,790 Speaker 3: law before you can bring the case. But that's that's 417 00:25:47,830 --> 00:25:52,790 Speaker 3: not here. You can actually, you know, defend your rights because, 418 00:25:52,830 --> 00:25:57,429 Speaker 3: as you said, the chilling effect it has already on 419 00:25:57,450 --> 00:25:58,230 Speaker 3: the church today. 420 00:25:59,430 --> 00:26:03,090 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you have something here. you can envision 421 00:26:03,130 --> 00:26:06,470 Speaker 2: something similar as if, you know, every citizen had to 422 00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:11,649 Speaker 2: prove that, you know, they were a resident of a 423 00:26:11,670 --> 00:26:15,379 Speaker 2: particular state, you know, in order to not pay a 424 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,060 Speaker 2: particular tax or something like that. 425 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:18,180 Speaker 1: It's an irritant. 426 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,460 Speaker 2: It creates an expenditure from a citizen that isn't necessary 427 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,700 Speaker 2: because the government is doing something that's probably overreaching. 428 00:26:25,780 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: And so there's a. 429 00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:29,070 Speaker 2: Sense in which I can understand that that's sort of 430 00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:32,409 Speaker 2: irritant for churches to How widespread do you get the 431 00:26:32,430 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: sense this is? And then I have sort of a 432 00:26:34,660 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: follow-up question for how this relates to broadcasting more particularly. 433 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:41,580 Speaker 2: But you've teamed up with two other churches here in 434 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 2: this lawsuit. Do you get the sense that this is 435 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,460 Speaker 2: a much broader issue? 436 00:26:46,570 --> 00:26:49,949 Speaker 3: Oh, it's definitely a much broader issue. I mean, I've 437 00:26:50,530 --> 00:26:53,650 Speaker 3: been in ministry for 25 years now, and this has 438 00:26:53,890 --> 00:27:00,129 Speaker 3: constantly come up. It's talked about amongst churches, pastors, leaders, denominations. 439 00:27:00,260 --> 00:27:04,350 Speaker 3: It's It's always there and it comes up every election cycle. 440 00:27:04,430 --> 00:27:08,230 Speaker 3: We didn't particularly, our timing wasn't brought up to affect 441 00:27:08,350 --> 00:27:11,250 Speaker 3: any election cycle. We knew this was a long haul 442 00:27:11,690 --> 00:27:15,090 Speaker 3: as these cases are. They're never, you know, short fixes. 443 00:27:16,290 --> 00:27:18,210 Speaker 3: And so we knew this was going to take time, 444 00:27:19,050 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 3: but we just knew it had to be addressed. It 445 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,720 Speaker 3: just can't set out there in this kind of vague position. 446 00:27:25,710 --> 00:27:29,270 Speaker 3: any longer. So that was kind of our reasoning behind it. 447 00:27:29,730 --> 00:27:35,100 Speaker 3: But yeah, I bet you there's probably not a major 448 00:27:35,190 --> 00:27:39,580 Speaker 3: church in this country that doesn't know the term Johnson Amendment. 449 00:27:41,300 --> 00:27:42,100 Speaker 1: Interesting. Okay. 450 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 2: So then my question about the broader broadcasting world, given 451 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,129 Speaker 2: how this is narrowed to pastors and churches, how does 452 00:27:50,150 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: that influence folks like me. 453 00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: I'm not a pastor. I'm not representing a church. 454 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 2: But as a podcaster, if I wanted to, I suppose 455 00:28:02,260 --> 00:28:05,260 Speaker 2: I could endorse a political candidate. It's not really my disposition. 456 00:28:05,859 --> 00:28:13,550 Speaker 2: But with the way you're pursuing the lawsuit now, does 457 00:28:13,660 --> 00:28:17,170 Speaker 2: it preclude folks like me, or does it include folks 458 00:28:17,210 --> 00:28:17,530 Speaker 2: like me? 459 00:28:18,410 --> 00:28:23,109 Speaker 3: No, right now, it would preclude folks like you Because, again, 460 00:28:23,170 --> 00:28:29,390 Speaker 3: it's narrowly focused on churches, pastors who are serving those churches. 461 00:28:29,410 --> 00:28:33,050 Speaker 3: And one of the things we looked at that was, too, 462 00:28:33,670 --> 00:28:38,410 Speaker 3: because we live in the media world today, most churches, 463 00:28:38,850 --> 00:28:44,170 Speaker 3: even small churches, have a broadcast even if they're just streaming. 464 00:28:45,650 --> 00:28:48,810 Speaker 3: But we know there's a heavy radio ministry in that area. 465 00:28:49,020 --> 00:28:52,580 Speaker 3: But remember, I don't know about your organization, but this 466 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,700 Speaker 3: is only for 501c3 nonprofits under the IRS tax code. 467 00:28:58,180 --> 00:29:02,810 Speaker 3: So if you're a 501c3 nonprofit and you're not an 468 00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:09,090 Speaker 3: active pastor pulpit in your church, this act, this ruling, 469 00:29:09,130 --> 00:29:12,770 Speaker 3: this consent decree is not going to protect you moving forward. 470 00:29:13,470 --> 00:29:15,410 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. No, I just wanted to clarify that. 471 00:29:15,490 --> 00:29:17,900 Speaker 2: Like I said, it's not like I'm aching to endorse 472 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 2: a political candidate anyway, but I do think, I do 473 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,620 Speaker 2: find it interesting that I just wanted to define how 474 00:29:25,860 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 2: fine that line actually was. And so a pastor with 475 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,310 Speaker 2: a radio ministry could technically endorse the political candidate as 476 00:29:33,630 --> 00:29:36,709 Speaker 2: part of that sermon that's ultimately going to be broadcast 477 00:29:36,750 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 2: and put out more broadly. But a radio host on 478 00:29:41,580 --> 00:29:45,900 Speaker 2: a religious broadcasting network of which you represent many wouldn't 479 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,140 Speaker 2: necessarily be able to do the same thing. 480 00:29:49,220 --> 00:29:49,590 Speaker 3: Correct. 481 00:29:50,250 --> 00:29:54,940 Speaker 1: That's correct. Really interesting. Interesting. I mean, I think it's important. 482 00:29:54,980 --> 00:30:00,130 Speaker 2: I think it's good and helpful that it's because I 483 00:30:00,330 --> 00:30:03,350 Speaker 2: could see, you know, certain instances where a pastor in 484 00:30:03,390 --> 00:30:07,870 Speaker 2: a church would want to steer the congregation or endorse 485 00:30:07,950 --> 00:30:13,340 Speaker 2: a candidate in one way or another. And but and 486 00:30:13,420 --> 00:30:15,900 Speaker 2: I like the idea of it sitting under that, you know, 487 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,200 Speaker 2: sort of authority of the elders at the very least. 488 00:30:19,050 --> 00:30:21,450 Speaker 3: Right. And that's the way we look at it, too, 489 00:30:21,550 --> 00:30:25,230 Speaker 3: is that, look, churches, most churches, most pastors are under 490 00:30:25,290 --> 00:30:29,060 Speaker 3: the authority of the elders within the church. So, you know, 491 00:30:29,100 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 3: this idea that, oh, this is going to create all 492 00:30:31,580 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 3: of this, you know, church electioneering and it's going to create, 493 00:30:35,020 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 3: you know, these these work between candidates are going to 494 00:30:39,940 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 3: pour money into churches that we don't that's not going 495 00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:48,250 Speaker 3: to happen. It's certainly not on a broad scale. Pastors 496 00:30:48,310 --> 00:30:51,030 Speaker 3: just generally don't want to be political, and that's good. 497 00:30:51,430 --> 00:30:53,630 Speaker 3: They're not called to and not called to be partisan. 498 00:30:54,050 --> 00:30:56,890 Speaker 3: But if a pastor feels compelled to speak up about 499 00:30:56,930 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 3: a biblical issue, let's just say pro-life, or let's just 500 00:31:00,390 --> 00:31:04,720 Speaker 3: say a gender issue, and wants to say, hey, we're 501 00:31:04,780 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 3: coming up to an election cycle, and I want you 502 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:12,219 Speaker 3: to know that candidate A supports this and candidate B 503 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:18,930 Speaker 3: opposes this, You know, and here's our biblical worldview on this. 504 00:31:19,710 --> 00:31:23,390 Speaker 3: You know, that pastor, if the conscience of that pastor 505 00:31:23,910 --> 00:31:27,130 Speaker 3: is calling them to speak up, then they should have 506 00:31:27,150 --> 00:31:31,650 Speaker 3: the freedom to do that based on their relationship with 507 00:31:31,690 --> 00:31:35,410 Speaker 3: their faith and with God and not the government's saying 508 00:31:35,490 --> 00:31:36,430 Speaker 3: this is right or wrong. 509 00:31:37,590 --> 00:31:41,660 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think interestingly, I appreciate that framing. As 510 00:31:41,740 --> 00:31:44,660 Speaker 2: I thought through this, just preparing for the conversation, the 511 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:48,140 Speaker 2: other thing I thought was this really, for local churches, 512 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,790 Speaker 2: could probably connect more strongly with local politics. Things that 513 00:31:52,810 --> 00:31:57,910 Speaker 2: are actually going on in a given locale that a pastor... 514 00:31:58,630 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: and their congregants are going to be far more intimately 515 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:05,060 Speaker 2: impacted by in a given, you know, just space, something 516 00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 2: that's happening with a local school board, for instance, or 517 00:32:07,820 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 2: a community development of some sort. 518 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,570 Speaker 1: And, and to feel muzzled. 519 00:32:14,610 --> 00:32:17,090 Speaker 2: And I, I would, I would say that that's probably 520 00:32:17,110 --> 00:32:19,530 Speaker 2: the right way to put it to feel muzzled, um, 521 00:32:19,570 --> 00:32:21,510 Speaker 2: and not want to go through all the rigmarole that 522 00:32:21,530 --> 00:32:24,410 Speaker 2: you guys have gone through in, in sort of navigating 523 00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:31,950 Speaker 2: these issues. Um, seems like it would be a real temptation, right? 524 00:32:32,190 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 2: To just stay silent and not speak on the issue 525 00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:38,180 Speaker 2: versus really being able to stand up and say, Hey, 526 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,980 Speaker 2: this is an important one. We need to have this conversation. 527 00:32:41,060 --> 00:32:43,900 Speaker 2: We need to speak to this public happening that's going on. 528 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:45,820 Speaker 2: And I want to at least give you guidance and 529 00:32:45,940 --> 00:32:51,350 Speaker 2: framework from God's word to think through these matters. So yeah, 530 00:32:51,390 --> 00:32:53,570 Speaker 2: that local aspect to me was really compelling. 531 00:32:55,140 --> 00:32:55,420 Speaker 1: Right. 532 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 3: And that's where we really think, as you said, that's 533 00:32:58,380 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 3: really where it's going to come into play. We often 534 00:33:01,260 --> 00:33:03,080 Speaker 3: sort of look at this and we raise it all 535 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,430 Speaker 3: up to the national level and usually to the office 536 00:33:07,470 --> 00:33:10,810 Speaker 3: of the presidency. But it really is the local level 537 00:33:10,850 --> 00:33:13,650 Speaker 3: that I think the pastors are really wanting to have 538 00:33:13,730 --> 00:33:17,130 Speaker 3: and can have a much greater impact. Yeah. 539 00:33:18,310 --> 00:33:21,900 Speaker 2: So do you see this as just fundamentally a freedom 540 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:28,840 Speaker 2: of speech movement? religious liberty sort of issue, and particularly 541 00:33:28,900 --> 00:33:36,630 Speaker 2: with churches. And I guess that would be my real question. 542 00:33:36,890 --> 00:33:41,350 Speaker 2: We're defining a religious liberty at this point narrowly within churches, 543 00:33:42,690 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 2: not outside of a specific 501c3 authority structure that would 544 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:51,190 Speaker 2: be labeled a church. that would have that sort of 545 00:33:51,430 --> 00:33:56,860 Speaker 2: elder oversight of some sort. Is that the fundamental crux 546 00:33:56,900 --> 00:33:58,340 Speaker 2: of what you all are fighting for here? 547 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:03,459 Speaker 3: Yeah, we look, we think churches had this right, you know, 548 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:07,860 Speaker 3: like I said, for 170 plus years. And then, you know, 549 00:34:07,980 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 3: even if Johnson was trying to you know, keep nonprofits 550 00:34:13,660 --> 00:34:16,630 Speaker 3: that were receiving, you know, a government benefit, even if 551 00:34:16,670 --> 00:34:19,010 Speaker 3: he was trying to keep them out of the political 552 00:34:19,070 --> 00:34:23,910 Speaker 3: process and being used for that. The sweeping effect of that, 553 00:34:23,989 --> 00:34:28,489 Speaker 3: because the IRS looks at a church as a 501c3, 554 00:34:28,550 --> 00:34:33,500 Speaker 3: they fall under that same regulation guideline. Even though churches 555 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:40,330 Speaker 3: don't need to apply for 501c3 status, They fall under that. 556 00:34:41,130 --> 00:34:44,370 Speaker 3: We think it's time to get that corrected and, as 557 00:34:44,410 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 3: you said, restore that fundamental right that pastors had to 558 00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:53,860 Speaker 3: really follow their conscience and take all of this gray 559 00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:57,220 Speaker 3: area out, take this kind of chilling effect that it's had, 560 00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:04,740 Speaker 3: this self-censoring effect it's had, And let's restore that freedom 561 00:35:05,060 --> 00:35:09,620 Speaker 3: of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of free exercise 562 00:35:09,660 --> 00:35:12,250 Speaker 3: thereof to the pastors of this country. 563 00:35:13,489 --> 00:35:15,390 Speaker 2: It is interesting to me to look at some of 564 00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:18,469 Speaker 2: the sort of back and forth on this online. There 565 00:35:18,510 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 2: are some groups, nonprofit groups, some Christian groups who would 566 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,060 Speaker 2: stand against this and say, no, we want to keep 567 00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:28,750 Speaker 2: the Johnson Amendment. And then there's the other side that say, well, no, 568 00:35:28,790 --> 00:35:31,270 Speaker 2: we would like to repeal the Johnson Amendment and even 569 00:35:31,290 --> 00:35:33,210 Speaker 2: go further, maybe. 570 00:35:33,010 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: Then the lawsuit. 571 00:35:33,780 --> 00:35:37,380 Speaker 2: And so you've got all voices coming into this. But 572 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:42,820 Speaker 2: what I find sort of fascinating is there are legitimate 573 00:35:42,860 --> 00:35:47,210 Speaker 2: concerns that I think are right and really aren't effectively 574 00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:51,540 Speaker 2: addressed by this particular amendment. For instance— You've mentioned, you know, 575 00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:53,940 Speaker 2: you don't want churches to become lobbying groups. And so 576 00:35:53,980 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 2: that's not really part of what you all are addressing. 577 00:35:56,140 --> 00:36:00,089 Speaker 2: You don't want nonprofits giving the government or political candidates money. 578 00:36:00,790 --> 00:36:03,370 Speaker 2: And so that's not part of this. I think those 579 00:36:03,410 --> 00:36:09,030 Speaker 2: are appropriate spaces to have a conversation about the way 580 00:36:09,070 --> 00:36:12,630 Speaker 2: that nonprofits use the money that's given to them and 581 00:36:12,670 --> 00:36:15,910 Speaker 2: the appropriate allocation of those funds toward a given mission. 582 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 2: What's almost never talked about is how this hits the 583 00:36:20,420 --> 00:36:26,370 Speaker 2: for-profit sector and the very similar dynamics that you see 584 00:36:26,390 --> 00:36:32,310 Speaker 2: in lobbying and for-profit corporations doing this exact same stuff 585 00:36:32,390 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 2: with zero guidelines and policy really precluding them from supporting 586 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,770 Speaker 2: political candidates, endorsing political candidates. and doing all of these 587 00:36:43,850 --> 00:36:48,529 Speaker 2: sort of machinations that seem so abhorrent when we look 588 00:36:48,570 --> 00:36:50,390 Speaker 2: at it from a 501c3 perspective. 589 00:36:51,710 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's an interesting irony, isn't it? On one side, 590 00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:01,000 Speaker 3: you know, and look, and the interesting thing is there's 591 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 3: all kinds of tax breaks under the law that apply 592 00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:10,190 Speaker 3: to corporations, you know, and that's the way Johnson framed 593 00:37:10,210 --> 00:37:15,380 Speaker 3: this was that, you know, These organizations were getting a benefit, 594 00:37:15,820 --> 00:37:21,490 Speaker 3: and that benefit came with strengths. But like I said, 595 00:37:21,530 --> 00:37:27,529 Speaker 3: the McCain-Feingold Act tried to address some of that. John 596 00:37:27,550 --> 00:37:29,569 Speaker 3: McCain and Russ Feingold tried to address some of that. 597 00:37:30,070 --> 00:37:33,370 Speaker 3: And interesting enough, when that went to court, the court 598 00:37:33,469 --> 00:37:37,170 Speaker 3: threw out most of the major provisions. tossed them on 599 00:37:37,190 --> 00:37:40,939 Speaker 3: the grounds of free speech that you can't limit, you know, 600 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:49,660 Speaker 3: people or corporations, entities from those free speech rights. And so, yeah, 601 00:37:49,780 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 3: that's always the kind of interesting side of it is 602 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:56,070 Speaker 3: that why are 501c3s being treated so differently? 603 00:37:57,230 --> 00:38:00,070 Speaker 2: As you've gotten, and I assume you've gotten some pushback, 604 00:38:00,730 --> 00:38:03,890 Speaker 2: not just from the defendant, but from other sectors. But 605 00:38:03,930 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 2: as you've gotten that pushback, it Do you get the 606 00:38:07,140 --> 00:38:12,210 Speaker 2: sense that people view 501c3 organizations and that nonprofit work 607 00:38:12,290 --> 00:38:16,270 Speaker 2: as sort of oddly sacred and they want to make 608 00:38:16,350 --> 00:38:20,650 Speaker 2: sure that it's not adulterated by the political processes in 609 00:38:20,690 --> 00:38:22,700 Speaker 2: the way that some of the, you know, maybe the 610 00:38:22,739 --> 00:38:24,020 Speaker 2: for-profit entities have gone? 611 00:38:26,820 --> 00:38:31,140 Speaker 3: You know, no, not really. OK, that's the interesting thing 612 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 3: about this. All the pushback has really come even in 613 00:38:35,820 --> 00:38:42,210 Speaker 3: the religious side of it has come from these. I'll 614 00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:44,109 Speaker 3: say on the religious side, it's come from the more 615 00:38:44,190 --> 00:38:50,340 Speaker 3: left progressive side. religious organizations that want to say church 616 00:38:50,420 --> 00:38:53,980 Speaker 3: and stay out of these politics. The same organizations that 617 00:38:54,020 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 3: fly rainbow flags from outside their churches and do some 618 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:02,610 Speaker 3: of that are saying stay out of politics. So that's interesting. 619 00:39:02,630 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 3: But the other thing is really the pushback is just 620 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:09,219 Speaker 3: keeping religion out of the public sector. That's more what 621 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:14,040 Speaker 3: we're hearing. It's the idea that that's your religion. You 622 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,049 Speaker 3: should stay and keep that in your house or in 623 00:39:18,150 --> 00:39:21,529 Speaker 3: your church. And so you have the freedom of worship, 624 00:39:22,070 --> 00:39:25,110 Speaker 3: you know, but you don't have the free exercise of 625 00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:28,170 Speaker 3: religion to do what God's been called. And you and 626 00:39:28,230 --> 00:39:32,600 Speaker 3: I know the interesting thing to that is that the 627 00:39:32,860 --> 00:39:38,940 Speaker 3: government is not neutral. There's no neutrality there. This idea 628 00:39:39,010 --> 00:39:43,049 Speaker 3: that this was going to create a neutrality in there, 629 00:39:43,150 --> 00:39:46,670 Speaker 3: but the government's not neutral. As a matter of fact, 630 00:39:47,190 --> 00:39:49,570 Speaker 3: I think the reason that this has become such a 631 00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 3: greater issue today is because over the last 40, 50 632 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,070 Speaker 3: years 60 years, we've seen the government become more and 633 00:39:58,110 --> 00:40:02,330 Speaker 3: more involved in religious issues, not the other way around. 634 00:40:02,810 --> 00:40:07,390 Speaker 3: The government has tried to legislate things that we as 635 00:40:07,469 --> 00:40:11,010 Speaker 3: people of faith see as moral issues or ethical issues 636 00:40:11,290 --> 00:40:17,890 Speaker 3: or freedom of religion issues, everything from marriage to gender 637 00:40:18,050 --> 00:40:22,160 Speaker 3: to pro-life. And it's not necessarily been that the church 638 00:40:22,180 --> 00:40:26,460 Speaker 3: has really pushed into into governance, but that the government 639 00:40:26,540 --> 00:40:28,740 Speaker 3: has pushed into religious issues. 640 00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's, I wrote a piece a long time ago. 641 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:36,140 Speaker 2: I want to say it was in the 2022 era 642 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,910 Speaker 2: where I talked a little bit about the, the difficulties of, um, 643 00:40:42,270 --> 00:40:48,570 Speaker 2: allowing for free speech, allowing for freedom of religion, advocating 644 00:40:48,630 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 2: for church and state when you have ideological groups that 645 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 2: would never call themselves churches or religions. But functionally and dynamically, 646 00:40:57,660 --> 00:41:00,580 Speaker 2: they're doing the exact same thing. They're carrying a story 647 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:04,870 Speaker 2: with them and seeking to legislate that story into the government. 648 00:41:05,050 --> 00:41:07,870 Speaker 2: And so part of what we're dealing with, I think, 649 00:41:07,930 --> 00:41:12,950 Speaker 2: nowadays is just a fragmented, understanding of what the good 650 00:41:12,969 --> 00:41:16,850 Speaker 2: the true and the beautiful actually are and as christians 651 00:41:16,870 --> 00:41:18,950 Speaker 2: sort of advocate for some of that we get pinned 652 00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:24,719 Speaker 2: as you know religious nuts and uh and but the 653 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 2: reality is that all of these different groups that are 654 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,790 Speaker 2: advocating for this in the public space are bringing the 655 00:41:31,850 --> 00:41:36,370 Speaker 2: same sort of presuppositions and convictions about these areas that 656 00:41:36,410 --> 00:41:40,700 Speaker 2: we are. The difference being, of course, that we believe 657 00:41:40,739 --> 00:41:43,339 Speaker 2: all this has been self-disclosed by God. And so we 658 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:45,319 Speaker 2: have a different angle on it than most of them. 659 00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:48,880 Speaker 2: But it does seem to me to be that fragmentation 660 00:41:48,940 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 2: is really a difficult part of what we're dealing with 661 00:41:51,060 --> 00:41:51,460 Speaker 2: right now. 662 00:41:51,540 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 1: There's no consensus. 663 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,969 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, there's been a time where there's really 664 00:41:58,010 --> 00:42:01,779 Speaker 3: been Like you said, no consensus, but it's this, I think, 665 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:09,290 Speaker 3: misunderstanding that somehow because there's religion, there's a faith, there's 666 00:42:09,330 --> 00:42:14,009 Speaker 3: a Bible, there's scripture behind what certain people believe in that. 667 00:42:14,670 --> 00:42:19,720 Speaker 3: Somehow that is more limiting now. than somebody else's general 668 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 3: belief that they got off of some philosopher or some 669 00:42:25,660 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 3: leader at some point who wrote about this, that, or 670 00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 3: the other thing. And I think there's this misunderstanding, again, 671 00:42:33,540 --> 00:42:38,190 Speaker 3: that if we keep religion out, then everything else is 672 00:42:38,230 --> 00:42:43,370 Speaker 3: going to be neutral. But again, somebody's worldview is going 673 00:42:43,450 --> 00:42:48,359 Speaker 3: to guide the laws, the way money is spent, the 674 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:53,190 Speaker 3: regulatory framework, the judicial framework. Somebody's worldview is going to 675 00:42:53,230 --> 00:42:57,210 Speaker 3: guide that. And what we're saying is that if you're religious, 676 00:42:57,430 --> 00:43:00,230 Speaker 3: your worldview has to set on the sideline. If your 677 00:43:00,270 --> 00:43:04,790 Speaker 3: worldview is based on a faith, on a religious faith, 678 00:43:04,830 --> 00:43:09,200 Speaker 3: that sets on the sidelines, while ours runs rampant over 679 00:43:09,260 --> 00:43:09,860 Speaker 3: the top of you. 680 00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 681 00:43:11,380 --> 00:43:15,430 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, We're in a government of the people, 682 00:43:15,469 --> 00:43:17,569 Speaker 2: by the people and for the people. It's difficult to 683 00:43:17,610 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 2: separate the people from the faith that they hold, whatever 684 00:43:20,900 --> 00:43:24,900 Speaker 2: it is. And I think that to some degree, as 685 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 2: we look at what you all are doing, trying to 686 00:43:28,180 --> 00:43:34,480 Speaker 2: give people guidance on what their faith entails, you know, 687 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,299 Speaker 2: the claims that their faith actually makes on them and 688 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:41,020 Speaker 2: how that might relate to voting is certainly within the 689 00:43:42,570 --> 00:43:45,190 Speaker 2: the scope of what a pastor of a church is 690 00:43:45,250 --> 00:43:48,109 Speaker 2: called to do. This is the equipping of the saints. 691 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:54,140 Speaker 2: This is the, the call to culturally engage, right. And 692 00:43:54,180 --> 00:43:58,339 Speaker 2: make sure that, that folks have a good understanding and 693 00:43:58,380 --> 00:44:01,779 Speaker 2: that their, their conscience is not only clear when they 694 00:44:01,860 --> 00:44:04,379 Speaker 2: do something like vote for a candidate, but that it's 695 00:44:04,420 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 2: also informed. And I think that's a really crucial thing 696 00:44:07,780 --> 00:44:08,500 Speaker 2: that they need to do. 697 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:10,219 Speaker 1: Yeah. Very good. 698 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,910 Speaker 2: Well, Closing remarks, Troy. I mean, you know, where do 699 00:44:13,930 --> 00:44:16,310 Speaker 2: you guys take this next? What do you I don't 700 00:44:16,330 --> 00:44:18,069 Speaker 2: know whether you want to say what you're expecting, but 701 00:44:19,090 --> 00:44:20,259 Speaker 2: you know what's coming next. 702 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:22,719 Speaker 1: What's your hope in all this, I guess? 703 00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:27,500 Speaker 3: Well, look, I think we came to the understanding with 704 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:32,020 Speaker 3: the Justice Department. So the consent, the Justice Department sees 705 00:44:32,060 --> 00:44:35,450 Speaker 3: this as a violation of those rights and wants to 706 00:44:35,510 --> 00:44:39,230 Speaker 3: correct this. So our hope is that now that the 707 00:44:39,310 --> 00:44:43,690 Speaker 3: court will see this as well. and the Fifth Circuit will, 708 00:44:43,969 --> 00:44:46,590 Speaker 3: you know, look at this and look at the exceptions 709 00:44:47,050 --> 00:44:51,250 Speaker 3: that have been made to the Anti-Injunction Act and push 710 00:44:51,290 --> 00:44:54,180 Speaker 3: this back to the judge who then can review it 711 00:44:54,380 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 3: and the two parties can move on. That's our hope, 712 00:44:57,700 --> 00:45:01,420 Speaker 3: and that's the hope is to, again, remove this, you know, 713 00:45:02,610 --> 00:45:04,710 Speaker 3: kind of threat. It's really, as you said right now, 714 00:45:04,730 --> 00:45:09,250 Speaker 3: this threat and bring clarity to pastors. We don't expect, 715 00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:13,330 Speaker 3: if let's just say we prevail in this case, we 716 00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:16,430 Speaker 3: don't expect that that's going to cause some big political wave, 717 00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:20,790 Speaker 3: you know, immediately, but it is going to allow pastors 718 00:45:21,850 --> 00:45:26,530 Speaker 3: to now understand as they feel called and led along 719 00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:30,239 Speaker 3: with their elders, their congregation, and their own, you know, 720 00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 3: conscience before God. They don't have to worry about the 721 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,530 Speaker 3: government coming in and, you know, taking the, you know, 722 00:45:37,890 --> 00:45:41,910 Speaker 3: economic security from their religion or from their church or 723 00:45:41,950 --> 00:45:44,709 Speaker 3: whatever away from them. And they just have a clear 724 00:45:44,750 --> 00:45:46,390 Speaker 3: path to do what God's called them to do. 725 00:45:47,730 --> 00:45:50,280 Speaker 2: And with that, just sort of last couple of questions, 726 00:45:50,340 --> 00:45:53,290 Speaker 2: just to clarify a couple of pieces. Would the consent 727 00:45:53,330 --> 00:45:56,160 Speaker 2: decree be binding going forward, like there would have to 728 00:45:56,180 --> 00:45:58,900 Speaker 2: be legal action to reverse it? It's not something that 729 00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 2: would change from administration to administration like guidance would. 730 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:06,620 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, my understanding from our legal team is this. 731 00:46:07,260 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 3: Once it's signed off, it can't be undone. But also, 732 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:13,939 Speaker 3: let me be clear, because this is the way court 733 00:46:13,980 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 3: cases work in that. But the consent decree will set 734 00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:22,380 Speaker 3: a precedent for the IRS and the Justice Department. It 735 00:46:22,540 --> 00:46:30,500 Speaker 3: narrowly applies to the participants, to the plaintiffs here in 736 00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,879 Speaker 3: the case. But the court, you know, looks at these 737 00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:35,800 Speaker 3: and says, well, if it applies there in the Justice Department, 738 00:46:35,820 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 3: then it's probably going to be broadly applied across the board. 739 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,060 Speaker 2: Yeah, you could see other people coming in and saying, hey, 740 00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 2: we'd like the same thing. 741 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,219 Speaker 1: And see how that goes. Really helpful, Troy. 742 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,580 Speaker 2: I appreciate you coming on and talking through these issues 743 00:46:50,620 --> 00:46:54,980 Speaker 2: with us. Appreciate you all spearheading these ideas and fighting 744 00:46:55,020 --> 00:46:59,270 Speaker 2: for the religious rights of pastors and free speech of pastors. 745 00:46:59,370 --> 00:47:02,830 Speaker 2: And so just thanks for the conversation and thanks for 746 00:47:02,890 --> 00:47:03,350 Speaker 2: the effort. 747 00:47:04,210 --> 00:47:05,290 Speaker 1: Really, I think good stuff. 748 00:47:06,050 --> 00:47:08,469 Speaker 3: Well, thanks for having me today and for allowing us 749 00:47:08,530 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 3: to talk about this. NRB has existed for 82 years 750 00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,719 Speaker 3: now and our primary mission is is to just ensure 751 00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,770 Speaker 3: that the gospel has its place in the public sector. 752 00:47:21,890 --> 00:47:27,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, very good. Well, great conversation. Thanks for being here. Thanks, everybody, 753 00:47:27,780 --> 00:47:28,260 Speaker 1: for listening. 754 00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:30,160 Speaker 2: And we'll catch you on the next episode of Thinking Christian. 755 00:47:30,430 --> 00:47:31,010 Speaker 1: Take care, everybody.