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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm

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Speaker 1: doctor James Spencer. I'm joined by doctor Ashish Pharma, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking a little bit today about

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Speaker 1: this idea of assimilation and how in the world the

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Speaker 1: church tends to lose its shape, let's say, as the

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Speaker 1: world sort of encroaches into it. There's an incorporation that

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Speaker 1: sort of happens where the Church and the world start

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Speaker 1: to look a lot more alike than we might want

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Speaker 1: or hope, and so it becomes a problem of identity,

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Speaker 1: it becomes a problem of thought process, it becomes a

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Speaker 1: problem of values, and so that's what we're going to

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Speaker 1: be talking.

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Speaker 2: A little bit about today.

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Speaker 1: We'll do a few episodes on the different problems we

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Speaker 1: sort of see, our forces that we see pressuring in

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Speaker 1: on the church and keeping the Church from developing that

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Speaker 1: sort of mature, uncompromising faith that says, hey, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to obey Christ even when the consequences are fairly negative.

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Speaker 2: And figuring this out.

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Speaker 1: So this first one is assimilation, but well we'll dive

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Speaker 1: in in future episodes into what we call fragmentation and

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Speaker 1: then transaction. So that's what's coming up. But today assimilation,

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Speaker 1: So I'll leave it there. But ah wan, don't you

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Speaker 1: start us off help us. Maybe you'd mentioned something before

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Speaker 1: the podcast about syncretism, and I think people have probably

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Speaker 1: heard that term and off a lot. I've used that

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Speaker 1: term and off a lot. I'm interested to understand your

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Speaker 1: thoughts on syncretism. So why don't we just jump in

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Speaker 1: right there?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: I love jumping right in, jump into the deep end, right,

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Speaker 3: and then might as well the shock of the cold,

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Speaker 3: you get over it quicker, that's right. So the two

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Speaker 3: are often welded together for me, and that when I've

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Speaker 3: gotten into conversations with assimilation, often in the classroom, I

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Speaker 3: often hear students raise the concern of syncretism, and I

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Speaker 3: think the connection for them is, generally, if assimilation is

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Speaker 3: the problem of one group absorbing into itself another so

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Speaker 3: that there's a loss of itself. The fear, on the

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Speaker 3: other end is when that sort of assimilation is is

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Speaker 3: compared to a religious setting or setting in which you

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Speaker 3: have people concerned that we're going to lose the basics

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Speaker 3: of our faith, We're going to lose the core of

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Speaker 3: what it means to be in our case Christian, because

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Speaker 3: we've allowed ourselves to get too close to something else,

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Speaker 3: whether it be a culture, a way of thinking.

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Speaker 4: And often this is.

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Speaker 3: One directional right, it's a group of people that have,

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Speaker 3: whether they recognize it or not. Usually it's they don't

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Speaker 3: recognize it, a very culturally saturated understanding of their faith

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Speaker 3: and often very traditioned. Right that it's been deep rooted

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Speaker 3: for so long that these traditions just become the normativities

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Speaker 3: of what it means to express their faith. And that's

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Speaker 3: now engaging with another culture that's beginning to do similar

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Speaker 3: sorts of things, right, starting to gain roots or begin

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Speaker 3: to articulate the message of Jesus in light of its

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Speaker 3: own place, and the fear then enters in of whoa

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Speaker 3: that sounds too much like fill in the blank, whatever

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Speaker 3: your culture is, right, right, So generally that conversation of

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Speaker 3: syncretism that flows out of the assimilation conversation is a

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Speaker 3: fear based conversation. I'm afraid of losing the essence of

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Speaker 3: what makes Christianity what it is. Yeah, Now, I put

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Speaker 3: it that way deliberately because I want to highlight my

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Speaker 3: use of the word essence. There is already philosophically and

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Speaker 3: culturally saturated sure, right, And what I want to get

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Speaker 3: at within that is that there's a way discussing things

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Speaker 3: that's irretrievably tied to locality. So we think about universals,

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Speaker 3: we think about generalities, we think about common sense, these

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Speaker 3: things that should be true here, there and everywhere, and

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Speaker 3: it makes sense that we think in those terms. But

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Speaker 3: my reaction, my initial reaction, is to say that we

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Speaker 3: take for granted in that moment, how we don't know

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Speaker 3: anything as generalities, We don't know anything as universals. Everything

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Speaker 3: we know. And so my case in Boinde is one

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Speaker 3: of the other things we were talking about, completely unrelated,

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Speaker 3: was teaching in Europe, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so.

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Speaker 3: At a place I used to teach, one of the

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Speaker 3: perks was this opportunity regularly to go teach these these

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Speaker 3: programs abroad. And I might have mentioned it on this

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Speaker 3: podcast in some previous times, So forgive me if this

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Speaker 3: was repetition, but I will never forget this moment we're

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Speaker 3: teaching in. I'm teaching in Germany and the setting we're

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Speaker 3: living in this youth hostel for me for weeks, for

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Speaker 3: the students for months. Part of the deal is they

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Speaker 3: have this very German breakfast right, yep, these mini loaves

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Speaker 3: of bread that are fantastic, fresh fruit, cheese, cold cuts,

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Speaker 3: put out some dutella, and students initially think that's breakfast.

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Speaker 4: Maybe they're used to.

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Speaker 3: Cereal and milk, or reanola and yogurt.

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Speaker 2: Or make stup scrambled eggs.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, that's right.

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Speaker 3: But by the time they get into this a couple

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Speaker 3: months in, it's like this is normal to them, and

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Speaker 3: they love it. I'll never forget the initial part though,

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Speaker 3: And the initial thing was having these students walk up

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Speaker 3: to the to the little food bar where all this

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Speaker 3: stuff is laid out, and there's the basket of fruit,

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Speaker 3: and they look at the apples and they know that

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Speaker 3: it's an apple. It's not a confusion as to what

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Speaker 3: it is, right, but there's still a level of huh.

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Speaker 3: And the reason is and and I have an inverse

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Speaker 3: example of this as well. So before I get to

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Speaker 3: the punch one of this, let me give the inverse.

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Speaker 3: I had a student in my philosophy class years ago

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Speaker 3: who was from Germany, Okay, and I was telling this story,

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Speaker 3: and her first reaction was to start laughing and say,

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Speaker 3: that's how I feel about American apples. All right, So

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Speaker 3: where's the juxtaposition. You go to a major American supermarket

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Speaker 3: and you go look at the apples and they are big,

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Speaker 3: and they are perfect spheres, and they have this mild

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Speaker 3: layer of wax on them so they're shiny, and they

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Speaker 3: work hard to make sure that you don't find one

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Speaker 3: with the dent or the bruise in it. Right, And

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Speaker 3: it's this idyllic image of the apple, and not just

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Speaker 3: the students, all of us. We go to the store,

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Speaker 3: we have this image in mind. And now when I

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Speaker 3: say apple, the first image that pops into mind is

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Speaker 3: that thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And that's just not what you're gonna find in Germany.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Right, So you go to Germany and you you have

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Speaker 3: this thing that's not waxy, and it's not big, and

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Speaker 3: it's often not a perfect sphere. Its color is kind

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Speaker 3: of dull. It's a dull red, right, because it hasn't

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Speaker 3: been polished.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: So my German student had that image in mind and

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Speaker 3: she sees these American apples like, what in the world

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Speaker 3: is going on with this? I've never seen apples like this,

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Speaker 3: even if there's enough similarity that she knows, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And these American students in Germany are like, what in

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Speaker 3: the world is going on with this? I could take

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Speaker 3: two bites and be done with this thing, right right.

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Speaker 4: My point in this is.

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Speaker 3: That whatever image we have in our head, it came

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Speaker 3: from somewhere. So even as we think in generalities, think

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Speaker 3: in universals, think about the perfect form of the apple.

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Speaker 4: If you want to think click a Titaness.

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Speaker 3: Philosopher, we never get the image in our head from nowhere.

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Speaker 3: I'd say the same thing what I do with my

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Speaker 3: students now with regard to the category of what is

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Speaker 3: a weed? Now, some of them are funny, and they

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Speaker 3: think immediately of marijuana, and I think, okay, cool. But

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Speaker 3: the ones who are thinking about a weed in terms

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Speaker 3: of the garden, a dandelion, creeping Charlie. You know, I

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Speaker 3: can't run all the weeds that we have out there, crabgrass,

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Speaker 3: These sorts of images pop into their head.

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Speaker 4: Flower, a.

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Speaker 3: Zenia arose, a daffodil, right, a buttercup, something like this

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Speaker 3: pops into their head. Now, how come the wild violet,

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Speaker 3: the dandelion, these all have flowers on them. Why are

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Speaker 3: they in one category versus the other? Again, the point

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Speaker 3: here is that there is no universal This says more

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Speaker 3: about us in the way that our language has been

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Speaker 3: shaped by our place, by our expectations, by our desires,

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Speaker 3: and we begin to put other things into these categories.

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Speaker 3: And that's not inherently wrong, that's just how languages work.

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Speaker 3: But the trouble creeps in, and this is where we

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Speaker 3: get back to synchronism. The trouble comes in when we

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Speaker 3: fail to recognize how deeply shaped our way of seeing things,

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Speaker 3: hearing things, feeling things, imagining things is by our locality,

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Speaker 3: by our cultures, by our traditions, our histories. And now

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Speaker 3: we get to the Christian faith and we see a

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Speaker 3: Christian faith and that I wanted to flag the word

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Speaker 3: essence earlier because essence is a deeply philosophical term coming

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Speaker 3: out of a particular Greek philosophical tradition that has saturated

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Speaker 3: Western thought and its development in multiple cultures, and especially

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Speaker 3: saturated the formation of Christian theology as we know it.

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Speaker 3: You go to Scripture, the language of essence is just

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Speaker 3: not there, right, not because it's wrong to use that

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Speaker 3: as theological category, but because the form you break thinking.

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Speaker 2: Right, right, they wouldn't have ever called it essence, right.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So we're very quick and easy to use, these

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Speaker 3: languages that are deeply shaped and cultured and local and traditioned,

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Speaker 3: and so on and so forth. But in that process

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Speaker 3: to miss that it is just that it's not some

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Speaker 3: sort of pure version of the faith. And now when

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Speaker 3: we see another culture that's newer to the faith trying

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Speaker 3: to wrestle with the same sorts of things, we call

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Speaker 3: it syncretism.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's helpful.

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Speaker 1: Actually, my framework for syncretism was a little different, but

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Speaker 1: I am with you on what you're saying. In Old

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Speaker 1: Testament theology, syncretism is a very clear thing, right. We

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Speaker 1: can talk about scism in the Old Testament, for instance,

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Speaker 1: where we have Israelite practices, usually idolatrous, but not always,

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Speaker 1: there's a an intake of what is clearly stated to

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Speaker 1: be inappropriate adoption of foreign cultural practices into Israelite society,

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Speaker 1: which then creates these sort of mergers of incompatible notions

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Speaker 1: under what's broadly called Yahwism. And so I think the

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Speaker 1: difference so just as I'm hearing you talk, and we

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Speaker 1: might tease this out a little bit, when the Bible,

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Speaker 1: i mean the Bible is making it explicit, right, it's

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Speaker 1: not saying that any cultural appropriation would be problematic. Right,

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Speaker 1: it's saying that these particular ones are compromising Israelite faith

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Speaker 1: and creating a skewed understanding of who God is and

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Speaker 1: how God operates within Israelite society. That's often referred to

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Speaker 1: as syncretism in Old Testament theology. But what you're talking

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Speaker 1: about I agree with. I think we have to be

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Speaker 1: very careful and recognized that we are culturally rooted and

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Speaker 1: that not every difference would count as syncretism, which is

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Speaker 1: going to have a negative and pejorative understanding of what

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Speaker 1: that actually is. Right, So when we say something is syncretistic,

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Speaker 1: we're essentially saying it's heretical. It's a soft form of heretical. Right,

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Speaker 1: You've accommodated to the culture, You've compromised, You've allowed something

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Speaker 1: in that shouldn't have ever come in. As opposed to recognizing, no,

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Speaker 1: that's not exactly what this is. We can't equate this

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Speaker 1: exactly to the sort of quote unquote syncretism that we

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Speaker 1: identify in scripture, which that word is never used in scripture,

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Speaker 1: by the way, either it's Old Testament theology, right, is

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Speaker 1: naming a dynamic within the Old Testament syncretism. So that's

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Speaker 1: not biblical terminology, it's Old Testament theology terminology.

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Speaker 2: But when we.

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Speaker 1: See that in the scripture, yeah, okay, we can name that.

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Speaker 1: We can see it. It's clearly an abruption, like these

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Speaker 1: are problematic things, but when we see it out in

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Speaker 1: the world, we have to be I think, more careful

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Speaker 1: with it.

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Speaker 2: You can almost argue that the fact.

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Speaker 1: That we are naming something syncretistic when we see it

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Speaker 1: in another culture is a sign of our assimilation into

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Speaker 1: our own culture. In other words, the depth of ingrainment

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Speaker 1: that we have in our own culture keeps us from

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Speaker 1: recognizing that this other expression by other Christians may actually

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Speaker 1: be helpful and appropriate and a necessary understanding for us

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Speaker 1: to recognize as part of what it means to have

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Speaker 1: a good Christian witness. At the very least, we should

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Speaker 1: recognize it as something that could be very good within

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Speaker 1: a given culture of that culture's witness. And so I

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Speaker 1: think that that what you're describing would point back to

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Speaker 1: an assimilation to our own.

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Speaker 2: Culture right where we've lost the script.

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Speaker 1: Of I like to think I'll give a really cultural

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Speaker 1: example to illustrate this. I've kind of gotten into this

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Speaker 1: idea that it's like an operating system. There's firmware, right

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Speaker 1: that defines the logic of a given system. So any

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Speaker 1: computer we purchase, or an iPad or a phone or

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Speaker 1: something like that has a basic logic to it, and

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Speaker 1: every app that we put on that, every piece of

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Speaker 1: software we put on that has to be formatted to

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Speaker 1: fit that logic. So we could say that the firmware

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Speaker 1: is the governing logic of this system, and everything we

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Speaker 1: put onto it has to conform to that governing logic.

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Speaker 2: And I think that part of.

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Speaker 1: What we struggle with when we're dealing with this emmolation

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Speaker 1: is recognizing that, yeah, well we may have to conform

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Speaker 1: our behavior to within a given culture. As Christians. We

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Speaker 1: see this all over the New Testament. We talked about

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Speaker 1: in other episodes, where Paul is arguing that, hey, we

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Speaker 1: can still fit within these structures, we just have to

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Speaker 1: think about them differently.

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Speaker 2: So there is that aspect.

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Speaker 1: But I think when the governing firm where starts to

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Speaker 1: skew the way we even think about things, that's where

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Speaker 1: there's a baseline assimilation that starts to happen. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that makes sense, but throw it out there.

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Speaker 3: It does. And so it leads to I have I

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Speaker 3: should be clear and say my concern with the conversations

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Speaker 3: that I often hear on syncretism doesn't mean that I

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Speaker 3: don't that I think everything goes right, right. I want

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Speaker 3: to tease out the Old Testament stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, go for it, because I think that.

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Speaker 3: Actually helps us understand the sorts of dynamics we're working

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Speaker 3: with here. You're the Old Testament scholar, correct me where

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Speaker 3: I go wrong. But I want to put them in

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Speaker 3: tension with Acts chapter two, right where in Acts chapter two,

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Speaker 3: the disciples receive the power of the Spirit coming into

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Speaker 3: them and they start to speak, and people marvel specifically

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Speaker 3: that at this point it's Jews from diaspora who've come

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Speaker 3: back to Jerusalem. Yes, and so they've come back. Now

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Speaker 3: they're hearing the message of Jesus being proclayed to them

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Speaker 3: in their own tongue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I think that that's a significant claim, right, especially

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Speaker 3: to the degree that languages contain the boundaries, the ways

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Speaker 3: of thinking, the localities. Right, So some things are just

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Speaker 3: lost in translation. But I hear people say chai tea,

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Speaker 3: I get irritated because chai means tea. But I also

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Speaker 3: get it because what an Indian person means by is

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Speaker 3: not precisely what a British person would mean.

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Speaker 4: By tea right in America.

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Speaker 3: So that's such that I've been in a situation where

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Speaker 3: someone offered me chai and I said yes, and I

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Speaker 3: got a little thing with a green tea tea bag

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Speaker 3: and hot water. Like, what the heck is this?

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Speaker 4: This isn't what I signed up.

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Speaker 2: For language for this, This isn't right. That's right.

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Speaker 3: So I get the tension in that moment, right that

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Speaker 3: to say chai tea is redundant. But I get also

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Speaker 3: that when people say chai tea there, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's layers going on. Yeah, they're saying they're referring to

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Speaker 3: something different than the bag of green tea and hot water.

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Speaker 3: But I also get that when people say chai t

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Speaker 3: they're probably referring to something from Starbucks.

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Speaker 4: That is not chai.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, so there's there's at least three things

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Speaker 3: going on. Yeah, languages do.

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Speaker 4: That to it this That's what I'm trying to say.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And the fact that you have acted chapter two

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Speaker 3: making that distinct point about language, I take it to

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Speaker 3: mean that no one language gets to declare that central normativity,

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Speaker 3: which means no set of categories gets declare one set

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Speaker 3: of central normativity to accessing Jesus. And sure enough the

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Speaker 3: rest of Acts is about not just to the Jew

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Speaker 3: but to the gentile, and the gentile not a second

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Speaker 3: class citizen. But what was far drawing near right? So

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Speaker 3: Acts fifteen in some ways the climax there. So I

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Speaker 3: say that to now put that intention with the Old Testament,

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Speaker 3: that it seems to me that when we have this

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Speaker 3: thing that Old Testament scholars will call syncretism. In the

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Speaker 3: Old Testament, what's at stake there is Yahweh worship. Yes, always,

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Speaker 3: so the syncretism of bringing Yeah, so the syncretism of

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Speaker 3: capitulating to Canaanite ways is not capitulating to some other groups'

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Speaker 3: ways of making chy or cooking rotti or bread or

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Speaker 3: something like that.

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Speaker 2: Right, correct.

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Speaker 3: The issue here is the centering of life around the

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Speaker 3: appeasing and worship of some.

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Speaker 4: God who is not Yahweh.

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Speaker 2: That's right.

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Speaker 4: That absolutely is a concern.

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Speaker 3: Right, And if the concern here is a detraction from

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Speaker 3: as we understand Yahweh as the triune God revealed in

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Speaker 3: the person of Jesus and administered to us by the

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Speaker 3: breathing out of his very own breath, as we see

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Speaker 3: at the end of John Yep, the Holy Spirit. Right,

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Speaker 3: if that is undermined in speaking in a different tongue,

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Speaker 3: then the issue here isn't that we've entered a different

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Speaker 3: tongue with another set of categories. The issue here is

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Speaker 3: we're no longer talking about the God of Abraham, Isaac

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Speaker 3: and Jacob. That's right, the God revealed in the person

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Speaker 3: of Jesus Christ.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I agree, and that's a problem. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But if the issue here is that you've begun to

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Speaker 3: use categories that don't align with the long tried and

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Speaker 3: true versions of speaking essentialism.

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Speaker 2: Right, totally dif, then we got there. Yeah. Right.

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Speaker 3: So one of the ways in which I've seen this

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Speaker 3: is as an Indian who is a Christian, I have

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Speaker 3: long felt that there's a challenge to be given, and

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Speaker 3: that challenge is that because of the way that modern Christianity.

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Speaker 3: So there's an older tradition of Christianity in India, there's a

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Speaker 3: modern tradition of Christianity. The way the modern Christianity came

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Speaker 3: to India was through British colonialism. Sure, merchant and soldier

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Speaker 3: and missionary were working in tandem in a shared sort

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Speaker 3: of project, such that those who embrace Jesus through the

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Speaker 3: modern missionaries to India, I can affirm in this Philippians,

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Speaker 3: one kind of way of the Gospel was preached, and

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Speaker 3: I take joy in that, but I also am saddened

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Speaker 3: by the fact that part of that project was we

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Speaker 3: need to break being.

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Speaker 4: Indian out of you.

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Speaker 2: Yes, right.

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Speaker 3: So unfortunately that that version of the Church that comes

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Speaker 3: from the modern missionary movement in India rightfully so gets accused,

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Speaker 3: I think by other Indians as rejecting being Indian. And

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Speaker 3: it seems to me that the logic of Acts two

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Speaker 3: and following is that no Indian is capable not only

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Speaker 3: of bearing the presence of Christ, but ritually embracing, rather

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Speaker 3: than being a secondary category. So with that in mind,

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Speaker 3: it's been very important to me over the years, and

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Speaker 3: I've written essays in the past on this, on how

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Speaker 3: the Valley, which is in some ways, especially in northern India,

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Speaker 3: but two larger Hindu India, kind of Christmas it is

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Speaker 3: the chief There's tons of holidays, but it's kind of

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Speaker 3: the chief holiday.

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Speaker 4: And the basic premise of the Valley is that.

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Speaker 3: The God ram entered into the kingdom of Rabin, who's

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Speaker 3: a a demon god, to rescue his bride who'd been kidnapped,

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Speaker 3: to liberate her, set her free. And the tagline of

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Speaker 3: it is light overcomes darkness.

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Speaker 4: Now, if we strip away and.

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Speaker 3: We strip away it ob and these names, right, it

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Speaker 3: sounds very very Christian, to be honest.

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Speaker 2: You get a lot of resonances. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so my writing has been to the effect of,

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Speaker 3: you know, can Indian Christians embrace the valley, which on

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Speaker 3: the surface might sound like how dare they? That sounds

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Speaker 3: like the same secretism you just said in the Old

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Speaker 3: Testament is not allowed, right, the portrayal of yahweh worship

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Speaker 3: for someone else worship. But my parallel here is to

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Speaker 3: think about Christmas December twenty fifth. Yeah, how did we

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Speaker 3: get there? We didn't get there from the Bible, there's

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Speaker 3: no date. We didn't get there from the snow. I

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Speaker 3: don't get the sense in the Middle East that there's

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Speaker 3: very much snow. We got there because Christianity really seemed

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Speaker 3: to take root in the Greco Roman world, and in

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Speaker 3: that Greco Roman world, especially under the Latin influence of Rome,

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Speaker 3: had this holiday called Saturnalia. On December twenty fifth, then

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Speaker 3: among other things, Saturn, who's God, the father of the gods. Right,

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Speaker 3: Jupiter is the high god, Saturn is the father of him. Yep, oh,

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Speaker 3: that sounds like it has some resonance, right, the father

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Speaker 3: and Saturn. Parents would give their children gifts on Saturnalia

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Speaker 3: as a bestower of the parent, Saturn bestowing his gifts.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: And Christians saw this and they said, hey, God, the

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Speaker 3: Father gave us the ultimate gift in the person of Jesus. Right,

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Speaker 3: I'm truncating this, right, but you can see within this

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Speaker 3: how Christmas became December twenty fifth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I, by the way, I think that's a beautiful

405
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Speaker 3: move that Greco Roman Christians, especially Roman Christians, made to say, hey,

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Speaker 3: we can celebrate on the same day and we can

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Speaker 3: testify to.

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Speaker 4: Jesus on it.

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Speaker 3: And I've tried to use that as a parallel to say,

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Speaker 3: can we do that same sort of thing with light

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Speaker 3: overcoming darkness in the voley? Yeah, to me, that's not syncretism.

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Speaker 3: That's an attempt to continue the mission of the Book

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Speaker 3: of Acts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think so that would square with what's

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Speaker 1: often referred to as syncretism in Old Testament theology, because

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Speaker 1: what you end up having is not so we could

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Speaker 1: easily just call it idolatry in the Old Testament. But

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Speaker 1: the reason I think it gets the nuance of signatism

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Speaker 1: often in the literature is that it's not a straight

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Speaker 1: trading of Yahweh with another god. You don't just reject

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Speaker 1: Yahweh and then pull another god in. What ends up

422
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Speaker 1: happening is the sole allegiance that you're to have to

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Speaker 1: the Lord to give him all you are and have right.

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Speaker 1: This is Deuteronomy six four and five. Right, give the

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Speaker 1: Lord all you are and have right. The short way

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Speaker 1: of saying all that, and so happens in the Old

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Speaker 1: Testament is you say, well, Yahweh is great for agriculture, right,

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Speaker 1: but I need something for war, right, And so I'm

429
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Speaker 1: going to pull in bail for war, or I'm going

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Speaker 1: to pull.

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Speaker 2: In you know, some other god for war. And you know,

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Speaker 2: God is great for you know.

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Speaker 1: The big stuff, but these household gods they really handle

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Speaker 1: the tedium of the day, right, And so I'm going

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Speaker 1: to pull those in. And what ends up happening is

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Speaker 1: you have not a wholesale rejection of Yahweh, but a

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Speaker 1: limiting of him, And what I usually argue is it's

438
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: a distortion that ultimately results in a denial. So distorting

439
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: Yahweh and making it seem as though he is either

440
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: incapable of or irrelevant to certain aspects of society is

441
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: ultimately a denial of who he is. That to me

442
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: is the best way to shorthand explain what is usually

443
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: meant by syncretism. It's a practice that sort of brackets

444
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: Yahweh to the side. And so what we have then

445
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: in your example, what you're saying is no de vali Christmas.

446
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 2: These things are.

447
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 1: The term I've been using lately, relocated, so you move

448
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: them from one sacred social order into another. So now

449
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: Devali really falls under the story of Christ and his church. Well,

450
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: that's not syncretism, that's a wholesale move over, right, And

451
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 1: so now it's sitting under something different, it's sitting under

452
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 1: the authority of Christ. It's been reshaped. You can make

453
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 1: the same sake case. I think your example of Christmas

454
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: is right on, and so what we have is not

455
00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: an assimilation to right different culture. I'm going to be

456
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:04,919
Speaker 1: a Christian, but I'm going to continue to worship Devali

457
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,239
Speaker 1: over here and that's going to be fine, because it's

458
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: really just part of my culture.

459
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: Right.

460
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: There's a difference in saying that, I think, than what

461
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,959
Speaker 1: you're saying, which is, no, I'm not going to celebrate

462
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: d VALEI because it's part of my culture. I'm going

463
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: to celebrate it with a renewed understanding of it because

464
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: I've moved it over underneath the authority of Christ and

465
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: I'm rethinking the whole thing. I'm going to assimilate it

466
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: under my faith as opposed to allowing myself to be

467
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:35,640
Speaker 1: assimilated to it. I think there's a subtle move there

468
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: that's really crucial. And that Old Testament, like I said,

469
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 1: what gets assimilated at or we gets understood as syncretism.

470
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: The Old Testament is.

471
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 1: Largely that it's Yahweh is not in charge of everything.

472
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: Yahweh is only in charge of certain things. And once

473
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: you make that move functionally, you have denied who Yahweh

474
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: actually is, and in a very important way, especially in

475
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 1: ancient Israel.

476
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 2: But I would argue for the Church as well.

477
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 1: And so there isn't a there is a cultural condition

478
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: that I think has to happen, But sometimes we get

479
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: the impression I think that like we read the Book

480
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: of Daniel and we say, well, if we eat the

481
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 1: king's food, we're going to defile ourselves, and so we

482
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: have to remain apart from whatever culture we're in. That

483
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 1: isn't exactly it, right, Daniel is not refusing the king's

484
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: food to.

485
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 2: Avoid cultural appropriation.

486
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: I mean, he becomes an expert in Babylonian culture and

487
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 1: learning and understanding. It's difficult to believe that doesn't leave

488
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: some sort of an imprint on him, right, But he's

489
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: also preserving a deeply rooted we would probably call it

490
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 1: identity of some sort and commitment to the Lord by

491
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: refusing the king's food, right, by not becoming overly dependent

492
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: on the king. I think the practice is largely intended

493
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: to remind he and his friends that God is still

494
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: caring for them, you know, And all the other episodes

495
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: in Daniel, I think take on a similar flavor. They're

496
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,680
Speaker 1: going to learn these things about Babylon, They're going to

497
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 1: become experts in the culture. They're going to become the

498
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:23,680
Speaker 1: wise people of Babylonian society, not because they've refused Babylonian understandings,

499
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: but because they've retained their yahism while learning the Babylonian culture,

500
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: the Babylonian whatever, and so this makes them very unique,

501
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 1: powerful individuals in that culture because they can now be

502
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: bridges into it. They can learn the new language, but

503
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: they understand in a very different way. That's how I

504
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: kind of read that aspect of it. Does that sort

505
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 1: of give you a sense of does that align with

506
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: what you're saying it?

507
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 3: Does the the language that I like to use is transfigured.

508
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've used that before. I like that a lot.

509
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, So the idea I mean, if you think about

510
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:16,000
Speaker 3: the Hebrew scriptures, yep. The way in which Yahweh is

511
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 3: depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures is certainly distinct from the

512
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 3: way that say, bal would be by the Canaanites, right,

513
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 3: or the gods of Egypt or the gods of Babylon.

514
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 3: But there's something remarkably similar. And what I mean by

515
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 3: that is that the mannerisms, the customs, the traditions, the

516
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 3: sorts of things being addressed seem deliberate.

517
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: Right.

518
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's set up in a and we could call

519
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: it a cultural key, so that those who are among

520
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 3: the Canaanites and those who are among the Babylonians and

521
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 3: the Persians and the Egyptians. They're not seeing in yahweh

522
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 3: something so utterly foreign and distinct that it's category problems. Right.

523
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: This isn't like the person who grows up at the

524
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 3: equator internet suddenly transported to the Arctic saying what is

525
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 3: this right?

526
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 2: Right? Right?

527
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 3: Or vice versa someone who grows up there and whatever

528
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 3: they encountered the equator. This is distinction through proximity. Is

529
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 3: there's something oddly similar.

530
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 4: And yet radically different.

531
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 2: Yep.

532
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 3: And that's how honestly, that's how difference makes the most sense.

533
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 3: If it's so radically different, it doesn't it's not threatening.

534
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 4: Right.

535
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 3: When the European colonizers came to what we thought we

536
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 3: began to think of as the Americas, a lot of

537
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 3: them were initially embraced by these First Nations peoples. And

538
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 3: I would argue that it's partially because they were so different.

539
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 3: A lot of the First Nations peoples would have greater

540
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 3: senses of trepidation towards other groups of First Nations peoples. Right,

541
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: you think about the dam and the Apache. Sure they

542
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 3: actually had a different name for themselves. It's escaping me

543
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: at the moment, But they were not friends in a

544
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 3: way in which they were both in different sorts of ways,

545
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 3: willing to make partnerships with the expanding Americans not coming west,

546
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 3: And part of that was because of such radical difference,

547
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 3: there was no sense of threat.

548
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's the.

549
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,720
Speaker 3: Similarity in which you see, oh yahweh is not one

550
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 3: of these, right, that the distinction is made. And I

551
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: think part of that is just simply for human reasons.

552
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:30,160
Speaker 3: What does it mean to eat the idea of an apple?

553
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 3: Not only do I even know what the idea of

554
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 3: an apple is apart from what I experience, right, either

555
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 3: as that big, juicy, round, perfectly perfectly round, waxy thing,

556
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 3: or as this small, not as juicy, not so symmetrical

557
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 3: or waxy thing. Not only do I not know a

558
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 3: apple apart from what I experience in day to day life.

559
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 3: And we could go about that with everything. I don't

560
00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 3: even know within that environment what it would taste like.

561
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 3: It's one of those apples more ideal than the other.

562
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 3: I don't know, Like sure, I guess, yeah. Like My

563
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 3: point here is that the categories that the Revelation to

564
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 3: the Hebrews had to make sense, something so radically different

565
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 3: that it didn't make cultural sense would have been so

566
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 3: radically different, that there's no basis for understanding, which is

567
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,479
Speaker 3: all to say again that the Hebrew texts are working

568
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 3: precisely within a cultural bubble, let's call it. And it's

569
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 3: a challenge because it's in that cultural bubble, not in

570
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 3: spite of it, so that when you now begin to

571
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 3: think about the moving of the text and the Gospel

572
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 3: into other spheres, it's got to make sense within that,

573
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 3: and to call one purer than the other just on

574
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 3: the basis of the culture, that's a part of I

575
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 3: think misses the thrust of the Book of Acts, and

576
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: I think it if forecloses on the richness of what

577
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 3: the old US narratives are trying to do within those environments. Right,

578
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 3: Why these rules that say you can't eat food that

579
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 3: comes from animals with cleft feet like in and of itself?

580
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 3: I think that the rest of the Old Testament and

581
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 3: the New Testament make it clear that doesn't really mean anything, right,

582
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 3: but it certainly meant something to them because they lived

583
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 3: in an environment where these were the sorts of rules

584
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,879
Speaker 3: around them, and Yahweh worship was now distinguishing itself within that.

585
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 4: Does that make sense?

586
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 2: It does?

587
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: So let me try to rephrase a little bit, and

588
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: I'll use the Old Testament studies arena to do this.

589
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: But there's been this sort of myth for a really

590
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 1: long time now that Old Testament law is let's say,

591
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 1: more just than any other ancient Near Eastern law. That

592
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 1: you see more mercy in the Old Testament law than

593
00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: you do in the ancient Near Eastern law. But as

594
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: we've studied ancient Eary Eastern law codes outside of Israel,

595
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: outside of what we find in the Old Testament, that

596
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: really doesn't bear itself out. It's arguable that ancient Your

597
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: Eastern law codes were in certain instances more merciful than

598
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 1: what we find in the Old Testament. So even when

599
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: we have analogs, let's say, of different laws like how

600
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 1: long you could keep a slave, or what a basic

601
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 1: punishment might be, or something like that, many times the

602
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: ancient Near Eastern law codes are more favorable.

603
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: Than the Old Testament is.

604
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: So what's the difference, Well, what I would say is

605
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 1: I go to Deuteronomy for I think we've we've leaned on,

606
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: we've wanted, we've wanted somehow the Old Testament to be

607
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: quote unquote better than the ancient Near Eastern law.

608
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: Codes right.

609
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: We want to we want to advance a narrative that says, look,

610
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 1: these people were immoral, right, they only caught the law

611
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: in partial ways, right, and so they're worse off than

612
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,879
Speaker 1: the Israelites were. That's not exactly the way I think

613
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 1: that's appropriate to frame it.

614
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:00,360
Speaker 2: Before.

615
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: What we see is the Israelites are practicing the law.

616
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: They're obeying the law that God has given them. And

617
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,760
Speaker 1: the nations look in at the Israelites and they say,

618
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: what other nation has a God so near they that

619
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:20,319
Speaker 1: he gave them this law? And the implicit answer is none.

620
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: And so for Israel, the distinctive feature was not that

621
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 1: their law was so different than everybody else's. The distinctive

622
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:32,480
Speaker 1: feature was God in their midst. And so you have

623
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 1: this sort of to underscore your point, there's a deep

624
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: similarity that they can see, and the core difference was

625
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: God in their midst, that God had come near to

626
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 1: give them this law, and that the dynamics of obedience

627
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,360
Speaker 1: and blessing that we see often in Deuteronomy, where you

628
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: know the if Israel will obey, they're going to experience

629
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: then the blessing of God that comes with living.

630
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: Along the grain of reality. Right.

631
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,439
Speaker 1: It's not a quid pro quo, but it's a as

632
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: you live into reality, you're always you're going to experience prosperity.

633
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: And so that's all deeper topic. But just everybody trusts me.

634
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that if you obey you get stuff right,

635
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: not prosperity gospel there, but so I deal with that

636
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 1: in other places you could look and find it. But

637
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,320
Speaker 1: essentially what I'm saying is just to underscore your point

638
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 1: that deep similarity doesn't is actually there.

639
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:33,920
Speaker 2: It's not.

640
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 1: You could tell the difference because we're familiar with the literature.

641
00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: But somebody who wasn't familiar with the literature, if I

642
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 1: laid out ancient Near Eastern laws with like Egyptian laws

643
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,960
Speaker 1: with Old Testament laws, it's not easy to tell the difference.

644
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: If you lay out an ancient, you know, Near Eastern

645
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: proverb against an Old Testament proverb, it's not necessarily that different.

646
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: Like these common cons were, just that they were common conceptions.

647
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:07,240
Speaker 1: And the distinguishing feature was really that Israel had a god,

648
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: a known God, a God who had revealed himself to them,

649
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: that was in their presence, in their midst And this

650
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: is why syncretism becomes such a problem in the Old

651
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: Testament because once you start pulling in these other gods,

652
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:22,840
Speaker 1: right now.

653
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 2: There really is no difference.

654
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: There's no difference between Israel and the rest of the people.

655
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: And so I think that that gives us an understanding

656
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: not only of what was normally called syncretism, but almost

657
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:36,920
Speaker 1: what we're getting at with assimilation.

658
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 2: It isn't that Greek speaking Jews and the.

659
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: New Testament couldn't really understand God that they needed to

660
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 1: speak Aramaic or Hebrew or whatever, right, otherwise they're just

661
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: completely lost and without hope. That's sort of ridiculous, right.

662
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 1: I mean, Stephen's speech in Acts seven speaks against this

663
00:38:56,200 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 1: as well. Right, Whereas the Pharisees and Sadducees, the religious

664
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 1: leaders of the day, wanted to narrow God down into

665
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 1: the temple and the law, Stephen narrates this whole history

666
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 1: of Israel where God is acting outside of the land,

667
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: apart from the Temple, and saying you're missing it. God

668
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 1: is not confined to these areas. You're too narrow. And

669
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: I think the point you're making is when we get

670
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: to if we're not careful, we'll get so narrow, right

671
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: that we miss all the different expressions that can be

672
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: appropriate of watching God work in the world. And so

673
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: that Greek speaking Jew isn't a lesser Jew because he's

674
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: Greek speaking. That gentile is not a lesser Christian because

675
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: they're gentile. They're expressing that faith in Christ within their culture,

676
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: and arguably most of Paul's letters are helping people work

677
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 1: out what it looks like to do that in their

678
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: particular moment in situation. Maybe not culture one hundred percent,

679
00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: but definitely within their situation most of the time. And

680
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: so I think, Yeah, this notion of assimilation really is

681
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: to me more akin to what we find in the

682
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: Old Testament, where they're drawing other things in and giving

683
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:27,280
Speaker 1: allegiance to something different than Yahweh. They're sort of saying,

684
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: I'll give Yahweh ninety percent of my devotion and ten

685
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: percent I'm going to spare for whatever other God I

686
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: tend to that I want to worship.

687
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 2: To me, that gets.

688
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 1: Into assimilation because we've changed something fundamental about what God

689
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,919
Speaker 1: is asking us for. In denying him any aspect of

690
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: his authority over our lives, we're functionally denying the whole thing.

691
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: And that may seem like a harder line. But I

692
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: think that's sort of where assimilation starts to come in.

693
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: We start to say no, even though this doesn't align

694
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:08,440
Speaker 1: with Scripture, it seems okay to do. Or just because

695
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: I'm now allowing something else to drive the course of

696
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: my life, it doesn't mean I'm denying the Lord. I

697
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: would argue that biblically it kind of does, right, and

698
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: so that authority structure has to be in place. And

699
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: I do think your illustration of Devali in Christmas it

700
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: does describe that dynamic. It's not I'm going to do

701
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 1: both of these. I'm going to be a Christian and

702
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to celebrate Davali as is it's I'm a Christian.

703
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean I can't celebrate Davali. It just

704
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: means that Devali has to conform to what I know

705
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:49,399
Speaker 1: of in christ That's more what I hear you.

706
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 3: Saying, yeah, and more than conform. I would still go

707
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 3: back to the language of transfigure, right, because it's it's

708
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 3: not as if I'm forcing it into a to which,

709
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 3: as I'm seeing within it echoes of something yeah that

710
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 3: are deeper and rich, and so to me, this gets

711
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 3: to the assimilation discussion, maybe from a different angle. See

712
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:15,920
Speaker 3: if it's saying similar something similar to you or not,

713
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 3: let me know what you think that. I think in

714
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:25,359
Speaker 3: some ways if syncretism is often a fear discourse, right,

715
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 3: we're afraid of losing what makes this thing what it is,

716
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:30,960
Speaker 3: what makes the faith what it is, what we say

717
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 3: about Jesus unique assimilation is the result of that fear discourse.

718
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 3: So it's still part of the fear discourse where it's

719
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 3: because I'm afraid of assimilating. The best practice is this

720
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 3: tried and true thing over here that we've forgotten, is

721
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 3: itself an incarnate expression let's call it, or a transfigured expression?

722
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: Yep, you must.

723
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 3: Become more like this. So it's a stripping away of

724
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 3: those things that we fear could be syncretistic elements in

725
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 3: order to make you like this. In its worst forms,

726
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 3: it really did carry the language killed the Indian to

727
00:43:09,880 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 3: save the person, right, And in that case, people weren't

728
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 3: talking about me Indian. They were talking about the Native

729
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 3: Americans who were not Indian. And that fear based discourse

730
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 3: means assimilate. I think it doesn't have to take that

731
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 3: sort of strong version, but there is a certain implicit

732
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:34,359
Speaker 3: power structure involved. Right, It's that we want to make

733
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 3: sure we maintain control. And I think what's lost in

734
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 3: that process is possibility. So rather than the possibility of

735
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:46,879
Speaker 3: saying interesting, there's this deeply embedded mythic reality of light

736
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 3: overcoming darkness in which God has to enter into the

737
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 3: depths of darkness to rescue his bride. Yeah, and seeing

738
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 3: a possibility within that we foreclose on that possibility out

739
00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:01,280
Speaker 3: of a degree of fear. Right, it's a fear based discourse,

740
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 3: and so control must be maintained, and what's lost is

741
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 3: ultimately a richer expression. If we're really serious about the

742
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 3: fact that God surpasses everything that we can imagine, he

743
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 3: surpasses the finitude that is tied to our creational setting,

744
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 3: not making creation bad, but God surpasses it can't be

745
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 3: contained within it. Then we really should be looking increasingly

746
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 3: for more ways to express the God that we say

747
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 3: is true and good and beautiful. Right, And so to

748
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 3: see something like the valley shouldn't be a reaction in fear.

749
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 3: It should be the wonder of possibility. Now, that doesn't

750
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 3: mean that we lose the sense of transfiguring. If we've

751
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 3: lost the sense of transfiguring. Then we've lost the sense

752
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 3: that this is ultimately about God.

753
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: Right.

754
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 3: But it seems to me like the Book of Acts

755
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 3: is saying, worry less about that fear and more about

756
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 3: the fear of the fear that leads you to assimilate.

757
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: Right.

758
00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 3: So to that culmination in Acts fifteen, where you have

759
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 3: this great Jerusalem Council, the Jews wanted to say to

760
00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,880
Speaker 3: the Gentiles, you must become Jewish in order to embrace

761
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,360
Speaker 3: the Messiah, who is Jewish. And the point of dispute

762
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 3: wasn't that Jesus was anything less than the Jewish Messiah.

763
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 3: The point of dispute was that one had that one

764
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 3: could only fully participate in the very life and flesh.

765
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 4: Of the Jewish Messiah by becoming Jewish.

766
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:36,479
Speaker 2: Right.

767
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 3: Where the reality that comes out of that council is

768
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 3: a recognition that both existences can exist coequally, right, the

769
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 3: Jewish and the Gentiles. So the gentile is asked to

770
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 3: honor these certain things about becoming Jewish, about the Jewish Jesus,

771
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 3: but a rejection of you must become Jewish, right, Yeah,

772
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 3: honor these sorts of things and fellowship with us. You

773
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 3: don't have to be circumcised. That's a pretty powerful declaration,

774
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 3: right to say, put these things next to each other. Yeah,

775
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:16,960
Speaker 3: And I think the fear of syncretism brings about the

776
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 3: active fear, which is assimilation, and the result is the

777
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 3: loss of the kind of beautiful mosaic that the Book

778
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 3: of Acts and Versus in chapters fifteen and following are

779
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:30,879
Speaker 3: offering to us.

780
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, what do you think?

781
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 2: No, I like that a lot. I think so.

782
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: I used to describe when I teach hermeneutics Bible study methods.

783
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: I would try to help the students understand how the

784
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,399
Speaker 1: Bible work by describing my daughter's playing with glitter. They

785
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: were really young at the time, and they always had

786
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 1: glitter out, and so you clean this stuff us.

787
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 2: Yes, it's exactly it right.

788
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:54,800
Speaker 1: You'd clean it up and you'd be like, okay, I

789
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: got all the glitter, and then you knew, like ten

790
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: days later, you're going to come back and you're always

791
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,920
Speaker 1: going to find more glitter, Like the stuff multiplies somehow.

792
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: You just can't get clear.

793
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 3: I was quoting Dimitri Martin, so in case that I

794
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 3: stole his joke, I've cided him.

795
00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 2: I recognized it.

796
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:14,560
Speaker 1: But yes, but yeah, I mean that and so what

797
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:16,279
Speaker 1: I'd explained to him is, you know, every time you

798
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: come back to God's words, you're just going to find

799
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 1: more glitter. Right, that's the idea, And I think I

800
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,799
Speaker 1: would apply that same analogy to what you're suggesting. That

801
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 1: God's realm is full of goodness, truth, and beauty, much

802
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,360
Speaker 1: of which we can't capture in our first run of

803
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 1: the story. And so every time we come back to

804
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: creation and look at what God has given us, we're

805
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,480
Speaker 1: going to find different aspects of that good, truth and beauty.

806
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 2: It's just going to keep showing up like glitter.

807
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: Right, you can't get rid of this stuff, and so

808
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 1: and so we have to remain open to goodness, truth,

809
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: and beauty. I think we have to remain open to

810
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:02,320
Speaker 1: people seeing aspects.

811
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 2: Of the goodness, the good, true, and the beautiful.

812
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:08,399
Speaker 1: Right, even if they don't understand who God is, they're

813
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: going to understand and see the goodness of creation, and

814
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: they're going to recognize certain truths.

815
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: They're going to see certain things as beautiful, and we

816
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:18,399
Speaker 2: need to.

817
00:48:18,320 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 1: Be affirming that like, yes, you're right, you've correctly recognized

818
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: an aspect of the goodness, truth and beauty.

819
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 2: Right.

820
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: Our role is then to sort of recognize that as

821
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: something that we've been given by the Creator, something that

822
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 1: we don't determine, but that has been given to us,

823
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: and so as Christians, in my mind, it's almost in

824
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: a way a resistance to a recognition of all the

825
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: God has given us when we're refusing to see these

826
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,919
Speaker 1: other things, when we close ourselves off to the goodness, truth,

827
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,600
Speaker 1: and beauty that we finding all over creation, when we

828
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: decide that we're never going to see another piece of glitter,

829
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: even when it's a parent to us, Right, we're just

830
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 1: going to leave it in the corner and ignore it, right,

831
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean it's not still there. And so there's

832
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: this aspect of it that I think we've got to

833
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: be not maximally open to anything, but consistently open to

834
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: recognizing that what I thought was there wasn't all that

835
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: was there. Right, There has to be an opening up

836
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: to not to other viewpoints like it's it's not quite

837
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,399
Speaker 1: as like we often hear the boogeyman of postmodernism. It's like, oh,

838
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: there is no truth, there is no whatever, and it's

839
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: just all perspective.

840
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:39,320
Speaker 2: That's not what I'm saying.

841
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 1: What I'm saying is that God's creation that is given

842
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 1: to us has more than we're capable of seeing in

843
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,040
Speaker 1: any one moment, and that we have to be continually

844
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 1: open to looking at it afresh, recognizing goodness, truth and beauty,

845
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: and that often I think we'll recognize that goodness, truth,

846
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: and beauty through other people we are seeing the world

847
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:05,320
Speaker 1: differently than we are, And that means that it doesn't

848
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: mean that we have to agree with those people every time,

849
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,000
Speaker 1: but it means we have to give them their due

850
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: that they're seeing something, they're recognizing something, some aspect of

851
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: God's world that's really.

852
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 2: Good, true and beautiful that we didn't see yep.

853
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,560
Speaker 1: And I think if we're unwilling to do that, what

854
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: we end up with is we end up assimilating to

855
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,919
Speaker 1: our own culture, which is going to offer a very

856
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 1: constrained understanding of God's creation, a limited story right in

857
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: which certain parts, you know, we just like I said,

858
00:50:40,560 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: we sweep the glitter to the corners and we leave

859
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: it there, and then we.

860
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 2: Just never look right right.

861
00:50:47,239 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: And that is an aspect of this assimilation that we

862
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: end up getting to.

863
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 2: We end up buying into a narrower story than we

864
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 2: need to.

865
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: And then refusing the other stories out there, the other

866
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 1: perspectives out there that could really widen our frame and

867
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:03,880
Speaker 1: help us see God's reality as it actually is.

868
00:51:04,840 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the loss is really our loss.

869
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: It's very much our loss.

870
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, the loss of seeing beauty more fully realized, you know.

871
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 3: And of course there remains a litmus test. And the

872
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 3: litmus test I don't think is merely is Jesus the center.

873
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,400
Speaker 3: I think it's more specific than that, is is Jesus

874
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:30,319
Speaker 3: the Jewish Messiah center? I think that sure to really

875
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 3: lean into Acts fifteen, I think that's an important part

876
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 3: of the conversation. That the answer wasn't merely that gentiles

877
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:41,160
Speaker 3: don't have to become circumcised Jewish people to follow the Messiah, right.

878
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 3: The answer was was that these gentiles could be gentiles

879
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 3: without losing sight. It's very specific though, that without losing

880
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 3: sight that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.

881
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:55,919
Speaker 4: Right.

882
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 3: You don't have to become Jewish, and that doesn't mean

883
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,320
Speaker 3: you're less less Christian for it. This isn't a class

884
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 3: issue in Christianity, right, But this is recognizing that Jesus

885
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 3: was not a gentile. First, this was a covenant made

886
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 3: in which Jewishness comes out of that to expand to everyone. Yeah, right,

887
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 3: and so the way that some would you know, I'm

888
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,320
Speaker 3: a member of a theological group called the Society for

889
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 3: Post Supercessionist Christian or Theology, excuse me, and that's kind

890
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 3: of one of the things to say that The goal

891
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 3: here is not to say all things have to pass

892
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 3: through some sort of approval process. The issue here is

893
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 3: to say we are second readers, and being second readers

894
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 3: means that we are approaching an existing medium of theological revelation,

895
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 3: and that revelation is culminating in the person of Jesus,

896
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 3: who is a real person in a real place, opening

897
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 3: up that real place so that you didn't have to

898
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 3: be in or of that place.

899
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

900
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 3: And so that kind of litmus test says not everything

901
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 3: will go right if something supersedes not just Jesus, but

902
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 3: the Jewish Messiah Jesus.

903
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 4: So we've got a.

904
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 3: Problem, right, But that doesn't that shouldn't foreclose out of

905
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 3: fear seeing the glitter everywhere?

906
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think so we're getting toward the end here.

907
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 1: What I would say is maybe where we're landing, which

908
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: I think is a little different than when I would

909
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:27,720
Speaker 1: have what I would have said assimilation is at the beginning.

910
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,080
Speaker 1: But maybe what we what we mean by this is

911
00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: something closer to we're so captured by an ideological story,

912
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:41,520
Speaker 1: a story that is that claims to be more complete

913
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:47,160
Speaker 1: than it actually is, that we close ourselves off from

914
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: God's broader creator creation, God's broader reality. We essentially put

915
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:59,399
Speaker 1: blinders on, and this is an effect of assimilation. There's

916
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: a way of fusing God where we say I'm going

917
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 1: to see in this way and only in this way,

918
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: and it doesn't matter what else God puts before me.

919
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 1: I'm only going to see in this way. And that

920
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: creates an inappropriate closure that reflects our stronger commitment to

921
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 1: a particular way of seeing a particular story than it

922
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: does to our commitment to Jesus being the Jewish Messiah.

923
00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, I think that's actually a helpful way

924
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: of thinking about assimilation.

925
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 2: I don't know, would you agree with most of that

926
00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 2: or yeah?

927
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And I think it's a helpful way to walk forward. Right,

928
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 3: So instead of walking forward out of fear, it's walking

929
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 3: forward with a sense of wonder and imagination.

930
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 4: But it's not, it's not in.

931
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 3: All things go, because that's often the fear. Well then

932
00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:02,399
Speaker 3: anything will go no, no, no, are we are being

933
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:05,760
Speaker 3: very deliberate to say all things must be encircled because

934
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 3: it's a life giving reality, the life giving reality of

935
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 3: the very body of Jesus Christ too. Wasn't just anybody, right,

936
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 3: It wasn't Warner Solomon's German Jesus. He was the Messiah

937
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 3: who walked, that's right, from Nazareth to Jerusalem and back again.

938
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,440
Speaker 1: There's a constraint there that I think is really important

939
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: to recognize. We used to when I used to be

940
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: an administrator in higher ed if you remember, we used

941
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: to do curriculum and stuff like that, right, And one

942
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 1: of the things I always had in my mind, whether

943
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 1: articulated it or not, was your best creativity happens within constraints.

944
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 1: And so for us, there's no point in releasing all

945
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,720
Speaker 1: the constraints and saying we'll see the world better without

946
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 1: any boundaries, because that's simply not true. What we need

947
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,400
Speaker 1: are the appropriate constraints so that we can actually be

948
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: enabled to see the world that God has given us

949
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: in an appropriate and theologically fitting manner.

950
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: And I think that.

951
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 1: That's an ever expanding sort of understanding. We don't just

952
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:11,920
Speaker 1: see it once and then close it off. It's not

953
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 1: a snapshot. It's a continuing conversation that we're having with

954
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,560
Speaker 1: God and others as we interact within creation. And to

955
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: resist that sort of movement and that sort of dialogue

956
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 1: is really to close ourselves off, to narrow ourselves so

957
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: much that we're unwilling to see any more of God's

958
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: creation at all. So, yeah, the constraints have to be

959
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 1: there there. To use Alicia Jauaro's language, they're enabling, They're

960
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 1: not limiting. The constraints are actually enabling us to do

961
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: something that we wouldn't be able to do without them.

962
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:54,720
Speaker 1: And so Jesus as the Jewish Messiah, is an enabling constraint.

963
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 1: With that in place, we're able to do things with

964
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 1: our minds. We're able to see things differently that we

965
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:03,280
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to see without that constraint.

966
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 4: So agreed.

967
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 1: Very cool man, Well, there has been a great discussion

968
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,520
Speaker 1: on assimilation and looking forward to the one on fragmentation

969
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 1: and transaction.

970
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:16,200
Speaker 2: We'll kind of dig into those as we go.

971
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: We're kind of playing around with the diagnosis of this

972
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: for Christianity, American Christianity particularly, but I think it would

973
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: apply more broadly than that, and so we'll walk through

974
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: these issues, these three forces, we're kind of calling them assimilation, fragmentation,

975
00:57:34,720 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 1: transaction as we go further on the podcast, but hopefully

976
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this and.

977
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 2: We'll see on the next episode. Take care of everybody,