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Speaker 1: Life Audio.

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Speaker 2: In the Old Testament, God seems judgmental, and in the

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Speaker 2: New Testament, not so much.

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Speaker 1: What changed? I don't think anything changed. I think he's

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Speaker 1: the same God in the Old and New Testament. Yes,

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Speaker 1: God judges people in the Old Testament, but he forgives

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Speaker 1: them as well. Hey, everybody. Welcome to a very special

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Speaker 1: edition of our podcast where I am interviewed by the

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Speaker 1: legendary producer, Rick Rubin. Now, if you haven't heard of Rick,

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Speaker 1: this man has had an incredible career going way back

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Speaker 1: to the early days of rap music. Rick Rubin produced

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Speaker 1: Run DMC, The Beastie Boys, Eminem, and then he's been

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Speaker 1: involved with many people you've probably heard of, like Tom

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Speaker 1: Petty and Neil Diamond, and he's worked with Adele, and

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Speaker 1: the list just goes on and on. Some regard him

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Speaker 1: as the greatest living record producer today, and I would

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Speaker 1: have to agree, but I became aware of Rick's gifting

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Speaker 1: and talent in his recordings that he did with Johnny Cash.

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Speaker 1: These recordings that Rick did with Cash are called American recordings,

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Speaker 1: and they happened toward the end of Johnny's life. In fact,

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Speaker 1: one of those songs called Hurt was made into a

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Speaker 1: video and actually won the MTV Music Video of the

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Speaker 1: Year Award, and it's quite remarkable. And Rick got Johnny

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Speaker 1: back to his roots in He just had him come

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Speaker 1: over to his home and sit in his front room

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Speaker 1: with his guitar. And Rick said, just sing your favorite songs.

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Speaker 1: And Rick recorded them. And then when they thought about

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Speaker 1: going into the studio, Rick Rubin decided that these recordings

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Speaker 1: he had already done with Johnny in his front room

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Speaker 1: were so good, he would just produce those. And those

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Speaker 1: would be the tracks that he would develop into these

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Speaker 1: American recordings. They also became very good friends. And actually,

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Speaker 1: would receive Communion together before they would record. When I

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Speaker 1: was with Rick, I asked him, tell me how that

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Speaker 1: came about, and he actually had the idea. That surprised me.

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Speaker 1: I thought it would have been Johnny's idea, but Rick

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Speaker 1: told me that he had this idea after watching a

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Speaker 1: preacher on television talk about it, and he suggested it

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Speaker 1: to Johnny, and Johnny thought it was a great idea.

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Speaker 1: And so every day before they would record, they would

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Speaker 1: have Communion. And Rick said even after they were done

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Speaker 1: with the recordings, him and Johnny would do it over

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Speaker 1: the phone. Fascinating. Rick had so many incredible questions. We

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Speaker 1: just talked for a really long time about the Bible,

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Speaker 1: about God, about what it is to have a relationship

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Speaker 1: with Him. And, you know, Rick is a very casual guy,

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Speaker 1: if you know anything about him. Most of the time

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Speaker 1: he's wearing shorts and a t-shirt. So, We sat in

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Speaker 1: this little couch across from each other, and I was

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Speaker 1: wearing shoes, so I took my shoes and my socks off. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, we were both very comfortable, and we put

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Speaker 1: these kind of old-school little lavalier-type mics around our neck.

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Speaker 1: And as we sat across from each other and time

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Speaker 1: was passing, I effectively forgot that we were recording a podcast,

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Speaker 1: and I just felt like I was... hanging out with

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Speaker 1: a super cool guy. And we had a wonderful time together.

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Speaker 1: Rick told me he'd like to do it again, and

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Speaker 1: I hope we can do that. I found him to

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Speaker 1: be a wonderful person, very engaging, very personable, very curious,

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Speaker 1: and had some fantastic questions. So we've never had a

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Speaker 1: podcast quite like this. I was very honored to even

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Speaker 1: be asked to do it by Rick. And one other

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Speaker 1: thing I would add, I said to Rick, Rick, how

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Speaker 1: did you even become a aware of me, and he said, well,

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Speaker 1: someone told us about this movie called Jesus Revolution, and

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Speaker 1: I watched it with my family, and we really loved it.

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Speaker 1: So I googled you to see if you were still alive.

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Speaker 1: I am still alive. And so we were able to

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Speaker 1: go from there. But now, for your enjoyment, here is

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Speaker 1: my podcast with the legendary Rick Rubin. You know, Jesus said,

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Speaker 1: He used two pictures to describe how a Christian should

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Speaker 1: function in the world. One was salt and one was light.

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Speaker 1: So in the first century, salt was like they used

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Speaker 1: to preserve meat. You know, they didn't have refrigeration. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: when they'd get the fish, they'd either eat it fresh

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Speaker 1: or they would put salt on it to eat it later.

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Speaker 1: So salt was valuable in that culture. Roman soldiers would

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Speaker 1: be paid in salt. So I think, number one, it

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Speaker 1: says you're valuable. Your life matters. Number two, salt. stimulates thirst.

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Speaker 1: And I think we do that too, hopefully. I think

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Speaker 1: if a person is walking with God as they ought to,

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Speaker 1: they will create in others a thirst for a relationship

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Speaker 1: with God. The greatest compliment you can be paid is

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Speaker 1: when someone says, yeah, you know what? How can you

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Speaker 1: be joyful at a time like this? What makes you tick?

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Speaker 1: Your marriage or your family or whatever it is they notice.

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Speaker 1: And then you can say, well, that's my relationship with God.

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Speaker 1: And the other is preserving. Saul preserves. And And as Christians,

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Speaker 1: it's important for us to speak up for what is true,

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Speaker 1: sometimes speak out against what isn't true, and to tell

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Speaker 1: the truth. And so a pastor, my job, pastor is

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Speaker 1: to feed the flocks. I'm there to feed our church,

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Speaker 1: spiritually guide them. But then... I'm also called to be

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Speaker 1: an evangelist. And the difference between a pastor and an

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Speaker 1: evangelist are like different callings. Like a pastor is tending

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Speaker 1: a flock, teaching people the Word of God. You're there

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Speaker 1: to be involved in people's lives. But an evangelist is

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Speaker 1: one who's proclaiming the message to the culture.

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Speaker 2: Spreading the message.

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Speaker 1: Spreading the message. So it's always been a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a dichotomy inside of me because I'm half pastor,

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Speaker 1: half evangelist. But We do outreach events that we call

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Speaker 1: Harvest Crusades in stadiums where we're on social media, we're

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Speaker 1: on television, radio. We've always, kind of our goal is

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Speaker 1: to reach unexpected people in unexpected places with an unexpected message.

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Speaker 1: So it's like, I want to kind of come into

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Speaker 1: their culture and not blow them out of the water,

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Speaker 1: not condemn them, but to hopefully stimulate a thirst in

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Speaker 1: them and tell them there's a God in heaven who

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Speaker 1: loves them, and they can come into a relationship with him.

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Speaker 1: So that means there's a lot of bridge building and

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Speaker 1: attempts to reach people where they're at. I've been doing

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Speaker 1: this for 52 years now. I'm 73. I don't feel 73,

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Speaker 1: but I've been doing this a long time, but I

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Speaker 1: love it more today than when I started. I started

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Speaker 1: at 18. I didn't even know I was starting a

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Speaker 1: church when I began. I was just teaching at a

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Speaker 1: Bible study of young people. And I came to faith

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Speaker 1: during the Jesus movement, which is the last great spiritual

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Speaker 1: awakening in America. And so I just was hearing the

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Speaker 1: Bible for the first time. I was a blank slate.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't raised in church. The only thing I literally

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Speaker 1: I knew about Jesus was what I saw in movies

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Speaker 1: like Ben-Hur, King of Kings, the greatest story ever told.

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Speaker 1: And I always had this admiration for Jesus. my grandparents,

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Speaker 1: there was a portrait of Jesus hanging on the wall,

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Speaker 1: and I would just look at it, and I just

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Speaker 1: had admiration for Jesus. But I never knew that he

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Speaker 1: could be known today. I just thought of him as

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Speaker 1: a historical figure. So the reason I was living with

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Speaker 1: my grandparents, Rick, was because my Mom was married and

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Speaker 1: divorced seven times. She's a beautiful woman. I'm not exaggerating

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Speaker 1: when I say she was a dead ringer for Marilyn Monroe.

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Speaker 1: She was like a man magnet. And she was also

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Speaker 1: a raging alcoholic, meaning she drank to excess and passed

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Speaker 1: out pretty much every night. Sometimes she didn't come home.

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Speaker 1: So I had to grow up really fast and kind

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Speaker 1: of take care of her, even as a kid. In

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Speaker 1: some ways, that was like the adult in the relationship.

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Speaker 1: And I was exposed to things that kids shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: exposed to. But that was my life. That was normal

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Speaker 1: to me. So, you know, when I got a little

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Speaker 1: bit older, my teen years, I started drinking and partying

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Speaker 1: at high school. And I thought, I don't like this drinking,

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Speaker 1: partying scene. You know, this is what my mother's done.

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Speaker 1: And then the whole drug culture was coming in strong.

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Speaker 1: And it made sense to me. Because sort of the

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Speaker 1: mentality was the adult world, they don't know anything. It's

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Speaker 1: a youth revolution. So I started smoking a lot of

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Speaker 1: weed and taking LSD. And after about two years of that,

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Speaker 1: I knew this was a dead end street. My background

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Speaker 1: is I like to do art. I'm a cartoonist. I

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Speaker 1: created a little world of art that I would retreat

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Speaker 1: to when I was a kid. So I saw all

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Speaker 1: of my creativity being sapped and I saw that this

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Speaker 1: is bad. This can't be what I'm gonna keep doing.

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Speaker 1: So I already knew I wanted to stop doing that.

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Speaker 1: So in my 17 year old brain, it was like

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Speaker 1: process of elimination. I don't want the adult world of

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Speaker 1: my mother I don't want the drug culture of my peers.

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Speaker 1: What is it? What am I supposed to do? And

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Speaker 1: I came across a group of very outspoken Christians that

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Speaker 1: we called Jesus freaks on the front lawn of our

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Speaker 1: high school campus. And they were singing songs about Jesus.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, they're crazy, these people. But the problem

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Speaker 1: was I knew a few of them. And I used

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Speaker 1: to be friends with them. And I used to party

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Speaker 1: with some of them. And I saw their life change.

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Speaker 1: So I couldn't dismiss them as complete fanatics because I

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Speaker 1: knew they were good people. So one day I was

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Speaker 1: walking across my high school campus and I sat down

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Speaker 1: on the grass close enough to kind of hear what

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Speaker 1: they were saying, but far enough away where people wouldn't

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Speaker 1: think I was becoming one. And there's this guy named

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Speaker 1: Lonnie Frisbee and you saw the Jesus Revolution film. He's

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Speaker 1: played by Jonathan Rumi, who also plays Jesus in The Chosen.

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Speaker 1: And when I met Jonathan, I said to the director,

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Speaker 1: this guy has to be Lonnie. Lonnie was this very

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Speaker 1: charismatic guy, had long hair, beard. He kind of looked

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Speaker 1: like Jesus. And so I'm just sitting there listening to this.

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Speaker 1: And this guy, Lonnie, stands up and he begins to speak.

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Speaker 1: And it's like, Jesus is speaking, not literally, but it

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Speaker 1: was like he looked so much like Jesus and he

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Speaker 1: was speaking the words of Jesus. And so there's power

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Speaker 1: in that. And I'd never heard this before. And when

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Speaker 1: he said, Jesus said, you're either for me or against me.

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Speaker 1: I looked around at the Jesus freaks and I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm not one of them. Does that mean I'm against Jesus?

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Speaker 1: Because I don't want to be. But am I for him?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so. And then he said, if you

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Speaker 1: want to pray and ask Jesus to come into your life,

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Speaker 1: get up and walk up here. And I thought, there's

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Speaker 1: no way I would ever do that. Next thing I knew,

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Speaker 1: I was up there. And I prayed this little prayer.

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Speaker 1: I didn't even know what I was doing. And the

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Speaker 1: school bell rang back to class. So that weekend, this

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Speaker 1: was Friday, we had planned to go out into the

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Speaker 1: Ortega Mountains and drop acid, take LSD and smoke some weed.

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Speaker 1: And I just was feeling so different. And I broke

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Speaker 1: up from my friends and I went and sat in

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Speaker 1: a rock and I'm filling up my little pipe and

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking about what's happened to me, trying to process it.

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Speaker 1: And I, like, I wouldn't say I heard a voice,

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Speaker 1: but that same strong impression on my heart that happened

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Speaker 1: just hours earlier on my high school campus came back

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Speaker 1: to me. And it just was like, you don't need

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Speaker 1: this anymore. And I said, okay, God, I don't know

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Speaker 1: anything about you. I don't know how to do any

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Speaker 1: of this, but if you're real, you're going to make

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Speaker 1: yourself real to me. And they threw my baggie of

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Speaker 1: weed out. And then I went back to school and

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Speaker 1: I started going to the little Bible study. And then

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Speaker 1: I ended up at a church called Calvary Chapel where

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Speaker 1: the Jesus movement was in full swing. And that's when

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Speaker 1: my life began to radically change. Tell me about Lonnie Frisbee,

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Speaker 1: the person, who he was. Yeah. He was very charismatic.

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Speaker 1: Like if he walked into a room, it just kind

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Speaker 1: of changed the energy of the room.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you don't think it was just based on

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Speaker 2: how he looked. It was something about his essence.

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Speaker 1: Well, it was everything, but the look contributed to it. Because,

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Speaker 1: you know, he'd wear like these shirts that are almost

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Speaker 1: like robe-like shirts and beads. So it kind of, he

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Speaker 1: almost looked like a Bible character a little bit and

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Speaker 1: with the hair and the beard. But then he had

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Speaker 1: this wacky and funny sense of humor. But then you'd

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Speaker 1: just be talking to him and all of a sudden

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Speaker 1: you get really serious and says, the Lord's telling me this.

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Speaker 1: And what freaked me out was I just saw The

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Speaker 1: Lord did tell him things. He said to me once, like,

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Speaker 1: I got to know him a little bit and hung

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Speaker 1: out with him after that. And we were praying for

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Speaker 1: somebody else. It wasn't about me. And all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: he turns to me and says, Greg, the Lord just

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Speaker 1: said to me, you're going to preach to thousands of

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Speaker 1: people all around the world. I'm like, what? I wasn't

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Speaker 1: a minister. I hadn't spoken ever. It was so out

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Speaker 1: of left field. But it was like... But later that happened.

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Speaker 1: So I can't dismiss it. And I saw him do

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Speaker 1: that with others. So he was very charismatic, but he

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Speaker 1: was not illiterate. But like when he read, he would

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Speaker 1: stumble over words. I remember once it was one of

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Speaker 1: his Bible studies that would be packed with lots of people,

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Speaker 1: especially young people, sitting in the aisle, sitting up in

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Speaker 1: the stage, people everywhere. And he said, Greg, read the

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Speaker 1: book of Jonah, which is only four chapters. So I'm

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Speaker 1: sitting on the toilet because he's in the bathroom and

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Speaker 1: he's brushing his hair, brushing it. Then he goes down

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Speaker 1: and brushes it down. I've never seen a guy do

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Speaker 1: that before. I've seen girls do that. Well, he really

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Speaker 1: into his hair. And I'm just kind of watching him

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Speaker 1: brush his hair, but I had so much admiration for him.

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Speaker 1: And I read him the book of Jonah. He goes,

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Speaker 1: read that again. Read it again. Read it again. And

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Speaker 1: this is in the movie, the Jesus Revolution movie. Then

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Speaker 1: he got up that night and he was speaking English.

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Speaker 1: from the book of Jonah based on what I'd read him,

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Speaker 1: which I was excited about. But then he started getting

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Speaker 1: a few parts wrong. Like he missed parts in the story.

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Speaker 1: And I was just really young in the faith. So

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Speaker 1: it's like you admire someone so much, but then, wow,

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Speaker 1: he got the kind of, not in a really bad way,

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Speaker 1: just details, parts of the story, not right. But he

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Speaker 1: was just kind of a bundle of contradictions because later

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Speaker 1: in life, he ended up falling away from the faith

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Speaker 1: and started using drugs, which he had done earlier before

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Speaker 1: his conversion. And he ended up getting AIDS from sexual contact. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so very sad thing. And I actually met with him

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Speaker 1: right before he died. He was in hospice care. He

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Speaker 1: was emaciated. AIDS was taking its toll on him. And

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Speaker 1: we're like sitting there in this dark room. It's like

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Speaker 1: a scene from a movie, Fire's really strong in the fireplace.

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Speaker 1: So that's all the light in the room. And I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at him kind of partially lit. And he says,

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Speaker 1: God's going to heal me. And I'm going to preach

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Speaker 1: to millions of people. And I was there with a friend.

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Speaker 1: We're kind of like, I don't think God's going to

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Speaker 1: heal you. We didn't say that. Okay, great, great. I'm great.

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Speaker 1: I hope that happens. And he died not long after that.

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Speaker 1: And then someone mentioned this to me. He said, do

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Speaker 1: you think he was seeing how the movie would touch people?

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Speaker 1: Because that movie went all around the world, and it

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Speaker 1: has touched millions of people. So maybe the Lord gave

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Speaker 1: him a little glimpse of his future. It was a

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Speaker 1: sad ending, but he knew what he had done was wrong.

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Speaker 1: He knew he had paid a very heavy price for it,

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Speaker 1: and he was sorry. So he messed up. But you

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Speaker 1: know what? We have people like that in the Bible,

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Speaker 1: from Genesis to Revelation, that are really used by God,

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Speaker 1: like Samson. And then they mess up big time. And

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Speaker 1: God forgives them, but sometimes they still reap the consequences

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Speaker 1: of their actions. Yeah, so that's Lonnie. He was a

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Speaker 1: lot of things at once.

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Speaker 2: How do you think he became the person that you

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Speaker 2: first met? Where did that wisdom come from?

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Speaker 1: You know, there's a saying, if you see a turtle

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Speaker 1: on a fence post, you know he didn't get there

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Speaker 1: by himself. And God seems to go out of his

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Speaker 1: way to choose the last person we might choose. And

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Speaker 1: even in the Bible, like looking at King David, I

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Speaker 1: mean the King David, but he was just a shepherd

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Speaker 1: boy watching this flock of sheep. Or you look at Peter,

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Speaker 1: the impetuous, impulsive, outspoken fisherman. And you look at so

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Speaker 1: many of the characters that the Lord selected. And the

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Speaker 1: Bible says God chooses the foolish things of the world

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Speaker 1: that confound the wise. So I think sometimes God will

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Speaker 1: choose the most unexpected person so he gets the glory.

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Speaker 1: And I would just think Lonnie fits that criteria. He

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Speaker 1: was abused as a child. You know, he came from

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Speaker 1: a broken home. But God put his hand on him.

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Speaker 1: And you're like, Chuck Smith is the other main guy

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Speaker 1: in the Jesus movie when he was older. And Lonnie

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Speaker 1: and Chuck were like nitro meets glycerin. It's like Lennon

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Speaker 1: meets McCartney, right? They're both so talented, but together there

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Speaker 1: was something special.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about Chuck.

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Speaker 1: Well, Chuck was the very opposite of Lonnie. Like where

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Speaker 1: Lonnie was, you know, energetic and you never knew what

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Speaker 1: he was going to do next. Chuck was steady as

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Speaker 1: she goes, kind of the father figure type.

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Speaker 2: He was older.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, older. But I mean, older 40s, you know, but

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Speaker 1: that was older to us. Because you guys were 20s.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he's like 45. He's old enough to be our dad.

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Speaker 1: He was also bald. So that made him seem older

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Speaker 1: than he was. But he was the perfect guy because

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Speaker 1: he saw that the young kids were searching. And so

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Speaker 1: it's sort of like we came for Lonnie and we

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Speaker 1: stayed for Chuck. Lonnie was like the magnet that drew

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Speaker 1: us in. If we only had Lonnie, I don't know

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Speaker 1: what this thing would have turned into. But you had Chuck,

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Speaker 1: who was a stabilizing pastor who knew the Bible. Me

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Speaker 1: being a kid from a broken home, he was like

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Speaker 1: a father figure, and I was learning other things from

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Speaker 1: him as well, not just the Bible, but he had

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Speaker 1: a strong work ethic and he was a really practical guy.

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Speaker 1: And I got to know him very well personally. So

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Speaker 1: I picked up things from him that I sort of

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Speaker 1: like a son might pick up from a father. So

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Speaker 1: he did that not just for me, but for a

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Speaker 1: lot of young people. So they were just this unusual

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Speaker 1: combination that God brought together for a moment in time.

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Speaker 1: And Lonnie left not long after this thing exploded. And

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Speaker 1: so then Chuck started giving opportunities for other young ministers,

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Speaker 1: and one of those younger guys was me a little

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Speaker 1: bit later.

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Speaker 2: Do you still draw?

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Speaker 1: I do.

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Speaker 2: You do? Yeah. That makes me happy.

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Speaker 1: I love it. It's my happy place. If there's a

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Speaker 1: piece of paper and a pen, I'm going to draw.

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Speaker 1: I've always wanted to do animation, and these cartoon characters

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Speaker 1: I've developed, and we animated about six cartoons. That was

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Speaker 1: really fun. That was kind of a dream come true. Great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. what were the conditions at the time that allowed

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Speaker 2: the Jesus revolution to happen?

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Speaker 1: It was just like you look back, you don't know

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Speaker 1: what's happening when it's happening, but you can look back

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Speaker 1: in retrospect with 20-20 hindsight and start making a little

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Speaker 1: bit of sense of it. I didn't know I'd walked

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Speaker 1: smack dab into the middle of a spiritual awakening. I

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Speaker 1: just thought, well, this is Christianity. It's really amazing. I

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Speaker 1: like this. In fact, it was like, I want to

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Speaker 1: see Christianity on steroids, but in fact, it's not on steroids.

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Speaker 1: It's normal Christianity. I think, unfortunately, a lot of times

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Speaker 1: we settle for a watered-down version. And so I think

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Speaker 1: what I was seeing was vibrant, real Christian faith, not

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Speaker 1: dramatically different than the faith of the first century of

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Speaker 1: the early church. And that's what a revival is, kind

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Speaker 1: of a returning back to that original life. And so

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Speaker 1: it was everything. It was the culture. We've got Kennedy assassinated.

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Speaker 1: then Martin Luther King, then Robert Kennedy. We have our

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Speaker 1: rock icons dying, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix, people

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Speaker 1: I used to listen to. They're all gone all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, kind of heroes of sorts. We have... Riots

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Speaker 1: in the streets. We have racial tension. We have the

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Speaker 1: Vietnam War raging with young men coming back in body bags.

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Speaker 1: We have the drugs. So you throw drugs into all

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Speaker 1: of this. And that's going on. So all of these

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Speaker 1: things were happening. And I think people are saying, we

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Speaker 1: need a sexual revolution. We need a political revolution. So

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Speaker 1: God sent a Jesus revolution. What's interesting is Time magazine

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Speaker 1: coined that term. We called ourselves Jesus People, and we

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Speaker 1: called it the Jesus Movement. But Time Magazine did a

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Speaker 1: cover with this kind of psychedelic image of Jesus, just said,

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Speaker 1: Jesus Revolution. You'd never see a Time Magazine like this again,

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Speaker 1: I don't think, with the way it was written. But

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Speaker 1: they described what was happening, and I think they really

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Speaker 1: got it right. It was a revolution.

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Speaker 2: What year was this?

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Speaker 1: Probably 1972 or so. It was all those things. And

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Speaker 1: that's why I find it interesting today, because I know

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Speaker 1: you've talked about a quiet revolution. And I think there's

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Speaker 1: real parallels between the late 60s, early 70s, and today.

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Speaker 1: We had a lot of young people really searching for God.

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Speaker 1: Not that that wasn't happening in the 80s or the 90s.

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Speaker 1: It's different right now. In Gen Z especially, they're like,

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Speaker 1: returning to church, or maybe many of them going for

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Speaker 1: the first time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and Bible sales have gone up for the first

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Speaker 2: time in 60 years, 70 years.

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Speaker 1: Right. And the other thing is it's young men. It's never,

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Speaker 1: almost always in churches, women dominate. They're the ones that

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Speaker 1: kind of lead the way and the guys come along later.

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Speaker 1: For this to be led by young men is kind

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Speaker 1: of a unique thing. And I think when you look

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Speaker 1: at every spiritual awakening in American history, they're all similar

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Speaker 1: and they're all different. You know, the first awakening in

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Speaker 1: America was George Whitefield, a preacher from England, who came over.

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Speaker 1: There's a movie out about him called A Great Awakening

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Speaker 1: that's actually very well done. But he came over and preached,

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Speaker 1: and so many colonists came to Christ, 80% of them

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Speaker 1: had heard him preach in person. That's pretty rare. And

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Speaker 1: then when the American Revolution came along, it was kind

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Speaker 1: of from the soil of that spiritual awakening. That's one

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Speaker 1: version of it. And the Jesus movement was so different.

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Speaker 1: Now we have AI. Now we have all of these

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Speaker 1: technologies just blowing up so quickly, even in the last,

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Speaker 1: seems like seven years. Just like every time you turn around,

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Speaker 1: there's a new innovation. I think you have a generation

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Speaker 1: raised on this stuff. For a lot of the kids,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of remapped their brains and they live in

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Speaker 1: a virtual world. And they've never been more connected digitally,

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Speaker 1: but more disconnected digitally. as human beings and spiritually. You know,

426
00:22:49,594 --> 00:22:53,794
Speaker 1: instead of connecting, it's having the opposite effect. So many

427
00:22:53,814 --> 00:22:56,314
Speaker 1: of them are looking elsewhere. Like they're looking for truth.

428
00:22:56,814 --> 00:22:59,574
Speaker 1: They're looking for answers. Why am I here? What is

429
00:22:59,615 --> 00:23:02,334
Speaker 1: the meaning of my life? The age old questions.

430
00:23:03,155 --> 00:23:06,554
Speaker 2: Was the Jesus revolution only happening in the LA area

431
00:23:06,655 --> 00:23:08,395
Speaker 2: or was it in other places as well?

432
00:23:08,574 --> 00:23:11,975
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was happening all around the world. And it

433
00:23:11,994 --> 00:23:16,524
Speaker 1: was sort of like little wildfires. It started In Southern

434
00:23:16,564 --> 00:23:21,105
Speaker 1: California and in Orange County. I still live there. That

435
00:23:21,264 --> 00:23:22,465
Speaker 1: was sort of the epicenter.

436
00:23:22,564 --> 00:23:23,284
Speaker 2: Ground zero.

437
00:23:23,365 --> 00:23:26,335
Speaker 1: Yeah, ground zero, where we would do the giant baptisms

438
00:23:26,385 --> 00:23:29,734
Speaker 1: at a place called Pirate's Cove. Since the movie was made,

439
00:23:30,915 --> 00:23:33,054
Speaker 1: you know, people now go down to Pirate's Cove. They

440
00:23:33,074 --> 00:23:35,574
Speaker 1: want to visit. They want to be baptized there. We

441
00:23:35,594 --> 00:23:37,734
Speaker 1: kind of felt when we were making the movie that

442
00:23:37,774 --> 00:23:41,255
Speaker 1: the fame of revival spreads the flame of revival. So

443
00:23:41,274 --> 00:23:43,404
Speaker 1: the guy who directed it was in the late 30s.

444
00:23:43,395 --> 00:23:46,064
Speaker 1: His name is John Irwin. And I said, John, I

445
00:23:46,885 --> 00:23:49,294
Speaker 1: can talk all day about this to people, but if

446
00:23:49,314 --> 00:23:52,674
Speaker 1: they can feel it, it'll be a different thing. If

447
00:23:52,695 --> 00:23:55,154
Speaker 1: they can feel like they're there. So I did the

448
00:23:55,215 --> 00:23:58,215
Speaker 1: best of my ability to describe everything I remembered. And

449
00:23:58,254 --> 00:24:00,535
Speaker 1: I remembered a lot of details, like the carpet was

450
00:24:00,594 --> 00:24:03,664
Speaker 1: this color. The upholstery in the pews was that color.

451
00:24:03,965 --> 00:24:07,884
Speaker 1: The chandeliers look like this. And this is what people wore.

452
00:24:07,925 --> 00:24:09,664
Speaker 1: And then when we were doing wardrobe and they were

453
00:24:09,685 --> 00:24:12,044
Speaker 1: dressing kids up as hippies, I said, no one dressed

454
00:24:12,084 --> 00:24:14,784
Speaker 1: like that. No, that's too much. And I described it.

455
00:24:14,905 --> 00:24:18,244
Speaker 1: He's really visual guy. And he got it. He shot

456
00:24:18,385 --> 00:24:21,205
Speaker 1: one scene in the movie where Lonnie's preaching in the church.

457
00:24:21,824 --> 00:24:24,425
Speaker 1: And I was there while he shot it. And afterwards,

458
00:24:24,514 --> 00:24:26,654
Speaker 1: I said, Johnny, you got lightning in a bottle. I

459
00:24:26,794 --> 00:24:28,935
Speaker 1: felt it. I felt like I'd gone back in time.

460
00:24:29,615 --> 00:24:31,794
Speaker 1: And then the other thing that really resonated were the

461
00:24:31,834 --> 00:24:34,614
Speaker 1: baptism scenes. Because first, I had to go out and

462
00:24:34,655 --> 00:24:37,865
Speaker 1: teach the actors how to baptize people. Because why would

463
00:24:37,895 --> 00:24:40,304
Speaker 1: an actor baptize anyone? So here's how we do it.

464
00:24:40,705 --> 00:24:42,905
Speaker 1: There's what we say before we do it. Kelsey Grammer,

465
00:24:42,984 --> 00:24:45,965
Speaker 1: Jonathan Rumi. But then what was so amazing is we

466
00:24:45,984 --> 00:24:48,944
Speaker 1: had all these extras on the set. And after we

467
00:24:48,984 --> 00:24:52,805
Speaker 1: were done baptizing them in wardrobe for the scene— They

468
00:24:52,824 --> 00:24:54,905
Speaker 1: were coming back and saying, I want to be baptized

469
00:24:54,945 --> 00:24:59,024
Speaker 1: for real. I want to be baptized. So there's this

470
00:24:59,165 --> 00:25:01,225
Speaker 1: one guy who had a small role in the film,

471
00:25:02,004 --> 00:25:04,744
Speaker 1: and he was baptized as that character in the film.

472
00:25:05,185 --> 00:25:06,724
Speaker 1: Then he came up to me and said, I want

473
00:25:06,744 --> 00:25:09,124
Speaker 1: to be baptized. I go, well, you need to be

474
00:25:09,165 --> 00:25:12,035
Speaker 1: a Christian. Tell me, how do I become a Christian?

475
00:25:12,405 --> 00:25:14,334
Speaker 1: So I sat there on the beach, talked to him

476
00:25:14,375 --> 00:25:17,624
Speaker 1: for a while, and He prayed with me and I said, well,

477
00:25:17,645 --> 00:25:20,025
Speaker 1: there's no reason you can't be baptized. So I took

478
00:25:20,064 --> 00:25:22,165
Speaker 1: him out. He was still wearing his wardrobe from the film.

479
00:25:22,205 --> 00:25:24,264
Speaker 1: He had a wig and all this stuff. And I

480
00:25:24,304 --> 00:25:26,824
Speaker 1: baptized him. And so they're doing this, still shooting the

481
00:25:26,844 --> 00:25:29,085
Speaker 1: scene because we only had so much time. The sun

482
00:25:29,125 --> 00:25:32,435
Speaker 1: was setting and our permit was over with. So they're baptizing.

483
00:25:32,475 --> 00:25:34,674
Speaker 1: They're looking good. Look, can they look? And I'm baptizing

484
00:25:34,695 --> 00:25:37,554
Speaker 1: the guy for real. So I think you could feel it.

485
00:25:38,115 --> 00:25:40,674
Speaker 1: So that was kind of the goal, you know, and

486
00:25:40,715 --> 00:25:44,135
Speaker 1: then we'd hear stories that, People, after seeing the movie,

487
00:25:44,175 --> 00:25:47,085
Speaker 1: would go down to Pirate's Cove like at, you know,

488
00:25:47,084 --> 00:25:50,304
Speaker 1: 12 o'clock at night and get baptized. People were getting

489
00:25:50,365 --> 00:25:53,984
Speaker 1: baptized in fountains outside of theaters. You can only pray

490
00:25:54,024 --> 00:25:56,064
Speaker 1: for something like that. That's a move of God.

491
00:25:56,385 --> 00:26:00,155
Speaker 2: Tell me about the timeline for the faith in general

492
00:26:00,494 --> 00:26:04,114
Speaker 2: and your experience from that time to now.

493
00:26:05,094 --> 00:26:08,244
Speaker 1: As in all things, as we get older, things change.

494
00:26:10,264 --> 00:26:13,715
Speaker 1: What we were experiencing then, I don't think we're necessarily

495
00:26:13,834 --> 00:26:19,355
Speaker 1: experiencing now in the same way. But I see hopeful signs.

496
00:26:19,955 --> 00:26:22,054
Speaker 1: It's kind of like when it starts to rain. I'll

497
00:26:22,074 --> 00:26:24,414
Speaker 1: be out walking with my wife and I'll say, my

498
00:26:24,455 --> 00:26:26,984
Speaker 1: wife has really thick, beautiful long hair. And I'll say, Kathy,

499
00:26:27,024 --> 00:26:29,604
Speaker 1: it's starting to rain. She'll say, it's not raining. I say, no,

500
00:26:29,625 --> 00:26:32,624
Speaker 1: it's raining. And I'll say, bald men always know when

501
00:26:32,665 --> 00:26:35,855
Speaker 1: it's raining first. It's raining. And to go, it is raining.

502
00:26:35,955 --> 00:26:37,975
Speaker 1: I told you, I can feel it in my head.

503
00:26:38,314 --> 00:26:42,774
Speaker 1: So I see little drops of rain happening like, oh,

504
00:26:42,814 --> 00:26:45,675
Speaker 1: there's like this series called The Chosen that's just blown

505
00:26:45,824 --> 00:26:49,565
Speaker 1: up around the world. Oh, there's some song from some

506
00:26:49,645 --> 00:26:52,705
Speaker 1: Christian artist that's like charting right now. Oh, there's this.

507
00:26:53,084 --> 00:26:56,244
Speaker 1: So these can be good things and hopeful things. So

508
00:26:56,425 --> 00:26:59,084
Speaker 1: I'm hoping we'll see that again. But some of the

509
00:26:59,145 --> 00:27:03,024
Speaker 1: people who came to faith then walked away from it.

510
00:27:03,715 --> 00:27:08,044
Speaker 1: Some deepened in it. And some continued in it. And

511
00:27:08,064 --> 00:27:10,965
Speaker 1: I hope to be one of those people that's continued

512
00:27:11,024 --> 00:27:15,184
Speaker 1: in it. You know, Jesus says, remember from where you

513
00:27:15,225 --> 00:27:18,445
Speaker 1: have fallen and repent and do the first works quickly.

514
00:27:18,465 --> 00:27:21,324
Speaker 1: And before that, he said, I see how hard you work,

515
00:27:21,365 --> 00:27:24,175
Speaker 1: but you've left your first love. It's not unlike marriage.

516
00:27:24,354 --> 00:27:27,124
Speaker 1: You know, you can fall in love with someone. and

517
00:27:27,145 --> 00:27:30,085
Speaker 1: you have the romance, and then, you know, you have marriage,

518
00:27:30,145 --> 00:27:32,864
Speaker 1: and then as years go by, you can fail to

519
00:27:32,925 --> 00:27:35,535
Speaker 1: appreciate that and fail to keep your marriage strong. The

520
00:27:35,554 --> 00:27:38,475
Speaker 1: same can happen in your faith. It has to be cultivated.

521
00:27:38,935 --> 00:27:41,334
Speaker 1: It has to be watered. You know, that seed, you

522
00:27:41,375 --> 00:27:46,175
Speaker 1: have to constantly be growing and learning and never resting

523
00:27:46,254 --> 00:27:49,225
Speaker 1: on your laurels or living in the past. I see

524
00:27:49,284 --> 00:27:55,024
Speaker 1: people my age retiring. I see people my age living

525
00:27:55,084 --> 00:27:57,574
Speaker 1: in the past, and I I'm always kind of want

526
00:27:57,594 --> 00:28:00,295
Speaker 1: to be in the present and be thinking about the future. Like,

527
00:28:00,334 --> 00:28:02,455
Speaker 1: what can we do next? And if I see like

528
00:28:02,494 --> 00:28:04,534
Speaker 1: a new technology or a new this or a new that,

529
00:28:04,574 --> 00:28:07,695
Speaker 1: I'm always interested. Like, can this be used for God's kingdom?

530
00:28:07,754 --> 00:28:11,554
Speaker 1: I'm not afraid of those things. But sometimes people just,

531
00:28:11,935 --> 00:28:15,594
Speaker 1: they get stuck in a rut. And so for us

532
00:28:16,074 --> 00:28:20,024
Speaker 1: in our life, what happened was 16 years ago, we

533
00:28:20,064 --> 00:28:22,544
Speaker 1: had a huge event happen. Our son was killed in

534
00:28:22,584 --> 00:28:27,644
Speaker 1: an automobile accident. That's like the worst case scenario. You

535
00:28:27,665 --> 00:28:31,744
Speaker 1: never plan on that. And as a pastor, I've done

536
00:28:31,784 --> 00:28:36,205
Speaker 1: a lot of funeral services for people that have died

537
00:28:36,294 --> 00:28:38,615
Speaker 1: and a lot of children, which are the hardest ones

538
00:28:38,675 --> 00:28:42,635
Speaker 1: to do of all. Who can explain that? And then

539
00:28:42,735 --> 00:28:45,664
Speaker 1: one day, I'm not the guy in the pulpit explaining it.

540
00:28:45,795 --> 00:28:48,115
Speaker 1: I'm the guy in the front row hearing the preacher.

541
00:28:48,955 --> 00:28:51,414
Speaker 1: And when I heard the news, I just wondered, how

542
00:28:51,435 --> 00:28:54,525
Speaker 1: do you survive this? Because I know I'm a pastor

543
00:28:54,584 --> 00:28:58,055
Speaker 1: and all this, and a Christian, of course, but it's still,

544
00:28:58,094 --> 00:28:59,675
Speaker 1: I was a father who lost my son.

545
00:28:59,695 --> 00:29:02,415
Speaker 2: And you're human. I'm human. Human beings feel things.

546
00:29:02,715 --> 00:29:05,334
Speaker 1: We sure do. But I have to say, though, someone

547
00:29:05,395 --> 00:29:08,475
Speaker 1: asked me, what moment of your life did you feel

548
00:29:08,545 --> 00:29:11,425
Speaker 1: the presence of God more than any other? I have

549
00:29:11,465 --> 00:29:13,685
Speaker 1: to say it was not long after my son died.

550
00:29:13,844 --> 00:29:17,025
Speaker 1: Our house filled with all these well-wishers that frankly weren't

551
00:29:17,065 --> 00:29:19,295
Speaker 1: being helpful to me. I just have to get out

552
00:29:19,315 --> 00:29:21,935
Speaker 1: of here. And I went, we had a little office

553
00:29:21,975 --> 00:29:24,715
Speaker 1: over the garage, my garage, and I just fell on

554
00:29:24,735 --> 00:29:26,815
Speaker 1: the floor and I just said, Lord, you gave them

555
00:29:26,875 --> 00:29:29,035
Speaker 1: to me and I give them back to you. And

556
00:29:29,075 --> 00:29:31,884
Speaker 1: I felt the presence of God. You can have a

557
00:29:31,945 --> 00:29:36,545
Speaker 1: national awakening and revival and you can have a personal

558
00:29:36,625 --> 00:29:40,595
Speaker 1: one too. And that renewed me. I was in my

559
00:29:40,815 --> 00:29:44,045
Speaker 1: late 50s at this point. And I thought, okay, I

560
00:29:44,065 --> 00:29:46,295
Speaker 1: don't know how long I'm going to live, but I

561
00:29:46,334 --> 00:29:49,815
Speaker 1: want to make every day of my life count. So

562
00:29:49,875 --> 00:29:52,295
Speaker 1: what can we do now that we've never done before?

563
00:29:52,475 --> 00:29:55,435
Speaker 1: And I kind of felt kind of this iron enter

564
00:29:55,475 --> 00:29:59,565
Speaker 1: my soul to try things we'd never tried before. And

565
00:29:59,705 --> 00:30:02,565
Speaker 1: so we did some pretty big crusades, went to Dodger

566
00:30:02,584 --> 00:30:06,455
Speaker 1: Stadium two nights, We went to AT & T Stadium,

567
00:30:06,495 --> 00:30:09,535
Speaker 1: which is huge in Texas, and did crazy stuff I

568
00:30:09,575 --> 00:30:12,805
Speaker 1: would not have normally done in my late 50s. Started

569
00:30:12,885 --> 00:30:15,405
Speaker 1: another church in Orange County. We have one in Riverside.

570
00:30:15,425 --> 00:30:17,805
Speaker 1: They're about 45 minutes apart. So I was just doing

571
00:30:17,825 --> 00:30:21,165
Speaker 1: a lot of things, and I felt a closeness to

572
00:30:21,255 --> 00:30:25,555
Speaker 1: heaven because my son's there. So that impacted Kathy and

573
00:30:25,594 --> 00:30:29,915
Speaker 1: myself and my son, Jonathan. He had gone prodigal, which means...

574
00:30:30,625 --> 00:30:33,124
Speaker 1: He hadn't walked away from his faith completely, but he

575
00:30:33,165 --> 00:30:36,225
Speaker 1: was doing drugs. He was going the wrong way in life.

576
00:30:36,425 --> 00:30:39,665
Speaker 1: And his brother, Christopher, who was like 11 years older

577
00:30:39,685 --> 00:30:42,604
Speaker 1: than him, had done the same thing earlier and had

578
00:30:42,645 --> 00:30:44,945
Speaker 1: made a recommitment to the Lord and was trying to

579
00:30:44,965 --> 00:30:48,705
Speaker 1: help his younger brother. And then one night, Christopher said, Jonathan,

580
00:30:49,465 --> 00:30:51,005
Speaker 1: what's it going to take for you to get right

581
00:30:51,045 --> 00:30:54,465
Speaker 1: with God? And Jonathan that night said, I'm going to

582
00:30:54,505 --> 00:30:56,985
Speaker 1: talk to my brother about this tomorrow and get this

583
00:30:57,065 --> 00:31:00,475
Speaker 1: sorted out. And then his brother was killed. I'm not

584
00:31:00,535 --> 00:31:05,325
Speaker 1: suggesting this is what it took because, you know, tragedies

585
00:31:05,385 --> 00:31:09,204
Speaker 1: happen that I can't explain. Rick, if you would have

586
00:31:09,245 --> 00:31:11,625
Speaker 1: met me when I was 21, I could explain anything.

587
00:31:12,625 --> 00:31:15,665
Speaker 1: And I'm saying that facetiously. I just thought I knew everything,

588
00:31:15,705 --> 00:31:18,395
Speaker 1: but I didn't. And now I know I don't know

589
00:31:18,435 --> 00:31:22,515
Speaker 1: a lot. But the Bible promises in Romans 8, 28,

590
00:31:22,515 --> 00:31:25,835
Speaker 1: it says, for we know that all things work together

591
00:31:25,875 --> 00:31:27,995
Speaker 1: for good to those that love God and are called

592
00:31:28,035 --> 00:31:31,215
Speaker 1: according to his purpose. So what that means is it

593
00:31:31,255 --> 00:31:33,755
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that, oh, this bad thing happened, so this

594
00:31:33,795 --> 00:31:37,174
Speaker 1: good thing can happen. Though sometimes bad things happen that

595
00:31:37,215 --> 00:31:40,825
Speaker 1: were always bad and will always be bad. But despite

596
00:31:40,865 --> 00:31:43,405
Speaker 1: that bad thing, God can bring good things. And I

597
00:31:43,445 --> 00:31:46,765
Speaker 1: would say, yes, that has happened. Many good things have happened,

598
00:31:47,145 --> 00:31:51,625
Speaker 1: including Jonathan recommitting his life to the Lord. And then

599
00:31:51,685 --> 00:31:53,625
Speaker 1: he came to me not long after and said, Dad,

600
00:31:53,645 --> 00:31:57,085
Speaker 1: I want to help you in your ministry. And now

601
00:31:57,185 --> 00:32:00,265
Speaker 1: he's a pastor at our church. That was the very

602
00:32:00,305 --> 00:32:02,725
Speaker 1: thing he was running from. Because when you're a preacher's kid,

603
00:32:02,765 --> 00:32:05,205
Speaker 1: everyone thinks you're going to become a preacher. So people

604
00:32:05,245 --> 00:32:07,525
Speaker 1: put pressure on you. And they say, oh, are you

605
00:32:07,545 --> 00:32:09,104
Speaker 1: going to be a preacher like your dad? So he

606
00:32:09,145 --> 00:32:12,124
Speaker 1: was trying to escape that. He ended up becoming a

607
00:32:12,165 --> 00:32:14,365
Speaker 1: preacher like his dad. But I think it's a calling.

608
00:32:14,965 --> 00:32:18,995
Speaker 1: So this happened in the aftermath of Christopher being called

609
00:32:19,015 --> 00:32:21,575
Speaker 1: to heaven. So if I could turn back time, I'd

610
00:32:21,594 --> 00:32:25,355
Speaker 1: bring Christopher back. I'd change everything. I'd gladly have gone

611
00:32:25,415 --> 00:32:28,714
Speaker 1: in this place. but I wasn't given that choice. But

612
00:32:28,775 --> 00:32:32,174
Speaker 1: that did bring like a spiritual awakening in me and

613
00:32:32,215 --> 00:32:33,475
Speaker 1: my wife and in my son.

614
00:32:34,155 --> 00:32:36,084
Speaker 2: Over the course of your life, had you had a

615
00:32:37,125 --> 00:32:42,485
Speaker 2: series of new understandings and openings or did you have

616
00:32:42,584 --> 00:32:45,645
Speaker 2: the going again moment when you were young and then

617
00:32:45,705 --> 00:32:46,245
Speaker 2: that was it?

618
00:32:46,565 --> 00:32:46,745
Speaker 3: No.

619
00:32:47,865 --> 00:32:50,735
Speaker 1: You know, I, I, I read the Bible a lot.

620
00:32:50,755 --> 00:32:52,434
Speaker 1: I read a lot of books by a lot of people.

621
00:32:52,635 --> 00:32:55,995
Speaker 1: I listen to a lot of sermons by people constantly.

622
00:32:56,695 --> 00:32:59,075
Speaker 1: I feel like there's always more to learn. And then

623
00:32:59,115 --> 00:33:01,475
Speaker 1: there are things that you learn and kind of forget

624
00:33:02,195 --> 00:33:05,114
Speaker 1: and need to relearn. Or you learn them in a

625
00:33:05,175 --> 00:33:08,974
Speaker 1: different stage of your life and they're different now. And

626
00:33:09,094 --> 00:33:13,894
Speaker 1: so I feel like I'm constantly needing to learn. And

627
00:33:13,955 --> 00:33:16,905
Speaker 1: constantly wanting to learn. In fact, it's sort of like

628
00:33:17,425 --> 00:33:19,404
Speaker 1: if you're not feeling well, you go to your doctor,

629
00:33:19,465 --> 00:33:22,205
Speaker 1: he'll say, how's your appetite? It's a sign of good health.

630
00:33:23,005 --> 00:33:25,705
Speaker 1: I think the same is true spiritually. If you don't

631
00:33:25,745 --> 00:33:28,785
Speaker 1: have a hunger to learn more and to grow more

632
00:33:29,525 --> 00:33:32,885
Speaker 1: and to get closer to God, something's not right spiritually.

633
00:33:33,425 --> 00:33:35,905
Speaker 1: So you need to constantly be feeding that. And it's

634
00:33:36,055 --> 00:33:38,474
Speaker 1: like never done. I'm done. I'm good. You know, I'm

635
00:33:38,535 --> 00:33:41,275
Speaker 1: good for a year. Now, to me, it's a daily

636
00:33:41,354 --> 00:33:45,624
Speaker 1: thing of constant growth, constant learning. And I actually love it.

637
00:33:46,115 --> 00:33:48,605
Speaker 1: My favorite thing to do, I love to do artwork.

638
00:33:49,645 --> 00:33:52,045
Speaker 1: That's when I do that, I'm kind of playing. Anything

639
00:33:52,104 --> 00:33:54,985
Speaker 1: creative is like play to me. But I do like

640
00:33:55,065 --> 00:33:58,445
Speaker 1: to study a scripture, figure out what it means in

641
00:33:58,505 --> 00:34:03,415
Speaker 1: its original languages and culture and context, and then build

642
00:34:03,455 --> 00:34:06,075
Speaker 1: a message out of it and then deliver that message.

643
00:34:06,175 --> 00:34:08,475
Speaker 1: I love to do that because I'm always kind of amused.

644
00:34:08,875 --> 00:34:11,585
Speaker 1: And how it comes together. You know, there's a creative

645
00:34:11,645 --> 00:34:13,985
Speaker 1: element to preaching, too.

646
00:34:15,345 --> 00:34:17,865
Speaker 2: Can you think of an example of a piece of

647
00:34:17,925 --> 00:34:21,065
Speaker 2: scripture that you understood one way when you were younger

648
00:34:21,085 --> 00:34:23,745
Speaker 2: and would even teach on it and have come to

649
00:34:23,785 --> 00:34:27,125
Speaker 2: learn a different dimension of it over time?

650
00:34:27,145 --> 00:34:29,915
Speaker 1: I don't think I would say I see it differently,

651
00:34:30,555 --> 00:34:34,134
Speaker 1: but I see it more deeply. Go back to Romans 8.28.

652
00:34:34,135 --> 00:34:37,635
Speaker 1: So I would just sort of quote that to people.

653
00:34:38,555 --> 00:34:40,694
Speaker 1: and not really think it through. But when you really

654
00:34:40,755 --> 00:34:43,155
Speaker 1: break it down, and then there's a verse that follows

655
00:34:43,195 --> 00:34:46,955
Speaker 1: that really explains everything. For we know that all things

656
00:34:47,015 --> 00:34:49,835
Speaker 1: work together for good. No, we know this as Christians.

657
00:34:50,555 --> 00:34:52,195
Speaker 1: And we have to start with, there's a God in

658
00:34:52,235 --> 00:34:55,395
Speaker 1: heaven who loves us, who has our best interests in mind.

659
00:34:55,855 --> 00:34:59,125
Speaker 1: One of my favorite passages is Jeremiah 29, 11, where

660
00:34:59,165 --> 00:35:01,925
Speaker 1: God says, I know the thoughts that I think towards you,

661
00:35:01,985 --> 00:35:04,364
Speaker 1: says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil,

662
00:35:04,645 --> 00:35:08,355
Speaker 1: to give you a future and a hope. And interestingly,

663
00:35:08,375 --> 00:35:11,335
Speaker 1: that verse, I had a watch that I gave to

664
00:35:11,375 --> 00:35:13,875
Speaker 1: my son Christopher, and I inscribed it on the back

665
00:35:13,895 --> 00:35:15,775
Speaker 1: of the watch, and he was wearing it when he died.

666
00:35:16,795 --> 00:35:19,435
Speaker 1: So when they brought this plastic bag to me with

667
00:35:19,475 --> 00:35:21,255
Speaker 1: the watch, and I looked at it and flipped it

668
00:35:21,315 --> 00:35:23,055
Speaker 1: over and saw that verse, I thought, how does this

669
00:35:23,115 --> 00:35:25,575
Speaker 1: verse work now? It doesn't sound like these plans are

670
00:35:25,595 --> 00:35:28,955
Speaker 1: very good. But then I stopped and thought, well, he's

671
00:35:28,995 --> 00:35:31,995
Speaker 1: in heaven, though. Because people would say, are you mad

672
00:35:32,055 --> 00:35:33,665
Speaker 1: at God? I said, I'm not mad.

673
00:35:33,685 --> 00:35:34,825
Speaker 2: I'm sad.

674
00:35:36,125 --> 00:35:40,695
Speaker 1: I'm disappointed. not in God, but just disappointed. But I

675
00:35:40,775 --> 00:35:43,455
Speaker 1: know that he's safely in the arms of the Lord

676
00:35:43,575 --> 00:35:46,475
Speaker 1: and that I'll see him again. But anyway, we know

677
00:35:47,375 --> 00:35:51,695
Speaker 1: that all things, not some things, all things work together

678
00:35:51,755 --> 00:35:54,435
Speaker 1: for good to those who love God and are called

679
00:35:54,455 --> 00:35:56,215
Speaker 1: according to his purpose. But then it goes on to

680
00:35:56,235 --> 00:35:58,745
Speaker 1: the next verse and says, for whom God did foreknow,

681
00:35:58,805 --> 00:36:01,905
Speaker 1: he also did predestined to be conformed into the image

682
00:36:01,945 --> 00:36:04,225
Speaker 1: of his own dear son. So what that means is

683
00:36:04,625 --> 00:36:06,765
Speaker 1: God shows us, you know, there's a verse I love,

684
00:36:07,475 --> 00:36:09,575
Speaker 1: where David says, when I was in my mother's womb,

685
00:36:09,595 --> 00:36:12,975
Speaker 1: God chose me. And like I was conceived out of wedlock,

686
00:36:13,035 --> 00:36:15,155
Speaker 1: I found out later in life. I always thought this

687
00:36:15,215 --> 00:36:17,655
Speaker 1: guy was my dad because his name was on my

688
00:36:17,695 --> 00:36:20,335
Speaker 1: birth certificate. But then they found out later he wasn't

689
00:36:20,375 --> 00:36:23,335
Speaker 1: my dad. And the way I found out was when

690
00:36:23,395 --> 00:36:26,775
Speaker 1: Christopher was born, I thought, well, I should introduce him

691
00:36:26,795 --> 00:36:29,675
Speaker 1: to his biological father. So he went to my mom.

692
00:36:29,695 --> 00:36:32,285
Speaker 1: He said his name was Kim. I said, where's Kim?

693
00:36:32,305 --> 00:36:34,995
Speaker 1: Is he around? Oh, yeah, he still has a dry

694
00:36:35,055 --> 00:36:37,715
Speaker 1: cleaning business, which he had when I was a kid. Well,

695
00:36:37,735 --> 00:36:40,135
Speaker 1: I want to go introduce him to his grandson. Oh, okay.

696
00:36:40,775 --> 00:36:43,235
Speaker 1: And when I got there, he's standing behind the counter.

697
00:36:43,255 --> 00:36:47,945
Speaker 1: He said, hi, Kim, I'm Greg, your son. Yeah, hi, Greg. Okay. Well,

698
00:36:47,985 --> 00:36:51,805
Speaker 1: this is your grandson, Christopher. He's looking, oh, nice. He

699
00:36:51,825 --> 00:36:54,385
Speaker 1: didn't even come out from behind the counter. So we

700
00:36:54,425 --> 00:36:56,625
Speaker 1: drove away and I said to my wife, Kathy, that's

701
00:36:56,665 --> 00:37:01,035
Speaker 1: not my father. I mean, that's your grandson. You would

702
00:37:01,075 --> 00:37:04,235
Speaker 1: react differently. So I asked one of my favorite aunts,

703
00:37:04,335 --> 00:37:07,245
Speaker 1: this really weird thought. I don't think he's my dad.

704
00:37:07,265 --> 00:37:08,885
Speaker 1: She said, how did you know? I said, oh, I

705
00:37:08,925 --> 00:37:11,065
Speaker 1: didn't know until you said that. So I thought that

706
00:37:11,085 --> 00:37:13,145
Speaker 1: he wasn't my dad, but I was conceived out of wedlock.

707
00:37:13,185 --> 00:37:16,145
Speaker 1: So one might say, I wasn't planned, right? I was

708
00:37:16,205 --> 00:37:19,175
Speaker 1: an accident, but I wasn't. God had a plan for

709
00:37:19,215 --> 00:37:22,475
Speaker 1: my life. In my mother's womb, he called me. So anyway,

710
00:37:23,015 --> 00:37:25,575
Speaker 1: for whom he foreknew, he knew us before we knew him,

711
00:37:25,595 --> 00:37:28,975
Speaker 1: to conform us into the image of his own dear son.

712
00:37:29,035 --> 00:37:31,915
Speaker 1: So the big picture is, We look at life and

713
00:37:31,975 --> 00:37:34,645
Speaker 1: things happen, good things happen. We go, oh, that's good.

714
00:37:34,685 --> 00:37:37,425
Speaker 1: All things work together for good. And bad things happen.

715
00:37:37,445 --> 00:37:41,065
Speaker 1: And then later, something good comes out of the bad

716
00:37:41,105 --> 00:37:43,545
Speaker 1: thing even. And we go, oh, things work together for good.

717
00:37:43,565 --> 00:37:47,745
Speaker 1: Then this crazy, horrible things happen. It never makes sense.

718
00:37:47,825 --> 00:37:50,675
Speaker 1: But we have to look at the big picture. Ultimately,

719
00:37:51,595 --> 00:37:55,555
Speaker 1: God wants to change us and make us more like Jesus.

720
00:37:56,095 --> 00:38:00,495
Speaker 1: Because heaven is a prepared place for prepared people. Jesus said,

721
00:38:00,515 --> 00:38:03,415
Speaker 1: I've gone to prepare a place for you. So I

722
00:38:03,455 --> 00:38:07,415
Speaker 1: just realized that God has a big plan. He loves me.

723
00:38:08,335 --> 00:38:10,955
Speaker 1: He'll ultimately work it out together for good. And I've

724
00:38:10,995 --> 00:38:14,655
Speaker 1: certainly seen that looking back in retrospect. So I trust

725
00:38:14,695 --> 00:38:19,075
Speaker 1: that he'll continue that. So I'd say I've deepened in

726
00:38:19,135 --> 00:38:23,895
Speaker 1: my understanding of that passage. I think I've deepened in

727
00:38:23,935 --> 00:38:27,925
Speaker 1: my understanding of suffering. And when I minister to people

728
00:38:27,965 --> 00:38:33,094
Speaker 1: who are suffering, I realize sometimes saying less is more

729
00:38:33,145 --> 00:38:36,634
Speaker 1: effective than saying more. They don't have to explain things

730
00:38:36,695 --> 00:38:39,895
Speaker 1: to people. And sometimes the best thing I can do

731
00:38:39,995 --> 00:38:43,335
Speaker 1: is just say, I'm so sorry. And I'll just say,

732
00:38:43,835 --> 00:38:46,225
Speaker 1: you're going to get through this. You're going to have

733
00:38:46,345 --> 00:38:49,045
Speaker 1: joy again. You're going to have a lot of sorrow.

734
00:38:49,405 --> 00:38:51,745
Speaker 1: This is going to be very hard, but life is

735
00:38:51,785 --> 00:38:54,685
Speaker 1: going to get better again. And I think when you

736
00:38:54,745 --> 00:38:59,595
Speaker 1: meet somebody who survived it, They'll listen to me. You know,

737
00:38:59,635 --> 00:39:05,075
Speaker 1: it's been said, failure builds bridges, success builds walls. So

738
00:39:05,095 --> 00:39:06,885
Speaker 1: if I seem to have it all together and I

739
00:39:06,905 --> 00:39:09,105
Speaker 1: have all the answers, it's like, I can't relate to you.

740
00:39:09,605 --> 00:39:11,885
Speaker 1: But if I say, hey, I've suffered, they know I've suffered,

741
00:39:12,205 --> 00:39:15,525
Speaker 1: they'll listen. If you preach to hurting people, you'll never

742
00:39:15,605 --> 00:39:18,495
Speaker 1: lack for an audience. And there's just so many hurting people.

743
00:39:18,535 --> 00:39:21,805
Speaker 1: So It's given me more compassion for people who are hurting,

744
00:39:21,825 --> 00:39:24,805
Speaker 1: where before I might walk away from a situation, all

745
00:39:24,845 --> 00:39:27,695
Speaker 1: these people just lost their child. I'd be, oh, okay,

746
00:39:27,715 --> 00:39:29,975
Speaker 1: maybe someone else will help them. Now I'll just walk

747
00:39:30,035 --> 00:39:32,115
Speaker 1: into it because I know what it's like to be

748
00:39:32,175 --> 00:39:34,895
Speaker 1: there and I want to help them. So I have

749
00:39:34,935 --> 00:39:37,425
Speaker 1: a ministry. I didn't have before administering to people who

750
00:39:37,445 --> 00:39:41,565
Speaker 1: lost children. I never wanted that ministry, but I accept it.

751
00:39:41,805 --> 00:39:44,404
Speaker 1: And I did find even early on when I took

752
00:39:44,485 --> 00:39:47,125
Speaker 1: my focus off of my own pain and put it

753
00:39:47,205 --> 00:39:50,645
Speaker 1: on others, it helped me. I'd feel better after I

754
00:39:50,685 --> 00:39:52,035
Speaker 1: talked to somebody else. Yes.

755
00:39:53,215 --> 00:39:57,475
Speaker 2: How did you learn about Christianity after your experience with Lonnie?

756
00:39:57,635 --> 00:40:01,715
Speaker 1: Yeah. Tell me the process of learning. I would phrase

757
00:40:01,775 --> 00:40:05,575
Speaker 1: it as just learning about Jesus. And the Bible is

758
00:40:05,645 --> 00:40:10,185
Speaker 1: about Jesus. He's in the Old Testament, concealed. He's in

759
00:40:10,225 --> 00:40:16,225
Speaker 1: the New Testament, revealed. So it's one continuous truth from

760
00:40:16,365 --> 00:40:20,464
Speaker 1: Genesis to Revelation. But it all really comes down to him.

761
00:40:20,645 --> 00:40:24,105
Speaker 1: He's the son of God. who was sent to this world.

762
00:40:25,005 --> 00:40:28,205
Speaker 1: He was fully God, but he was fully man. And

763
00:40:28,225 --> 00:40:31,965
Speaker 1: we can't understand that completely, but he is the way

764
00:40:31,985 --> 00:40:35,025
Speaker 1: that we come into a relationship with the Father. So

765
00:40:35,965 --> 00:40:39,195
Speaker 1: it's just learning about him. Paul said, my determined purpose

766
00:40:39,275 --> 00:40:41,515
Speaker 1: in life is to know him and to become more

767
00:40:41,555 --> 00:40:46,295
Speaker 1: like him. So that happens through Bible study. It happens

768
00:40:46,315 --> 00:40:50,325
Speaker 1: through prayer. It happens through being involved in church. happens

769
00:40:50,375 --> 00:40:54,165
Speaker 1: to having strong Christian friends that you encourage one another

770
00:40:54,265 --> 00:40:58,525
Speaker 1: doing it. It even happens in sharing this message with others.

771
00:40:58,605 --> 00:41:02,095
Speaker 1: You know, that's even life-giving to tell others about it.

772
00:41:02,645 --> 00:41:05,765
Speaker 1: The Bible says, he that waters others will be watered himself.

773
00:41:06,225 --> 00:41:09,185
Speaker 1: And I found, you know, when I tell others about Jesus,

774
00:41:09,705 --> 00:41:13,525
Speaker 1: it kind of like revitalizes me even. So, I mean,

775
00:41:13,565 --> 00:41:16,685
Speaker 1: pretty much every day I started with the Bible and

776
00:41:17,315 --> 00:41:20,395
Speaker 1: Throughout the day, I'm absorbing it. That's not all I do.

777
00:41:20,435 --> 00:41:22,344
Speaker 1: I do other things. I go out and have fun.

778
00:41:22,375 --> 00:41:26,725
Speaker 1: I play tennis. I, well, now pickleball, I guess, bracketball. Occasionally,

779
00:41:26,765 --> 00:41:28,865
Speaker 1: I ride my Harley, but the battery just died, so

780
00:41:28,885 --> 00:41:31,545
Speaker 1: I haven't done that for a while. I like to

781
00:41:31,585 --> 00:41:35,135
Speaker 1: listen to music. occasionally I surf if the water's really

782
00:41:35,175 --> 00:41:37,475
Speaker 1: warm and I'm in the right mood. I like to

783
00:41:37,515 --> 00:41:40,085
Speaker 1: spend time with my grandkids. So yeah, I love to

784
00:41:40,305 --> 00:41:42,565
Speaker 1: have meals with my friends and family. So I do

785
00:41:42,625 --> 00:41:45,364
Speaker 1: all the normal things of life, but that's all kind

786
00:41:45,405 --> 00:41:49,325
Speaker 1: of interwoven. And all of that is my faith and

787
00:41:49,405 --> 00:41:53,455
Speaker 1: growing spiritually and people know who I am. And so

788
00:41:53,475 --> 00:41:57,355
Speaker 1: I have opportunities to minister to people a lot, you know,

789
00:41:57,375 --> 00:41:59,755
Speaker 1: because I get recognized a little bit here and there.

790
00:42:00,455 --> 00:42:02,594
Speaker 1: So that's just my life. You know, it's just doing

791
00:42:02,615 --> 00:42:04,515
Speaker 1: that every day. But I love that.

792
00:42:05,475 --> 00:42:06,315
Speaker 2: What is harvest?

793
00:42:07,095 --> 00:42:10,094
Speaker 1: Well, that's the name of our church. And it's from

794
00:42:10,185 --> 00:42:13,185
Speaker 1: the Bible. Jesus said, the harvest is great, but the

795
00:42:13,245 --> 00:42:16,565
Speaker 1: laborers are few. So he sort of compared like a,

796
00:42:16,845 --> 00:42:19,125
Speaker 1: you know, field ready to harvest to people that want

797
00:42:19,165 --> 00:42:22,885
Speaker 1: to believe. These people want to believe. But someone's got

798
00:42:22,925 --> 00:42:25,625
Speaker 1: to go out there and reap where the seed has

799
00:42:25,665 --> 00:42:30,195
Speaker 1: been sown. And so Considering that I've always done evangelism,

800
00:42:30,815 --> 00:42:34,035
Speaker 1: I just thought that'd be a cool name for church.

801
00:42:34,555 --> 00:42:36,845
Speaker 1: So that's how we ended up with it. Then our

802
00:42:36,875 --> 00:42:40,665
Speaker 1: ministries just became Harvest This, Harvest That. And so it

803
00:42:40,705 --> 00:42:41,925
Speaker 1: just kind of has carried on.

804
00:42:42,105 --> 00:42:43,365
Speaker 2: Tell me about building a church.

805
00:42:43,805 --> 00:42:46,365
Speaker 1: You know what? I was starting out. I didn't know

806
00:42:46,425 --> 00:42:50,025
Speaker 1: I was starting a church. Starting churches, you see a

807
00:42:50,065 --> 00:42:52,685
Speaker 1: lot of them today. I'd never heard of anything like

808
00:42:52,725 --> 00:42:57,465
Speaker 1: that back in 1972. There were just older established churches

809
00:42:58,105 --> 00:43:01,765
Speaker 1: and the pastor would eventually leave and a new pastor

810
00:43:01,785 --> 00:43:03,785
Speaker 1: would come. But it wasn't like, oh, we're starting a

811
00:43:03,825 --> 00:43:06,205
Speaker 1: new church here. Let's start a new church there. Well,

812
00:43:06,705 --> 00:43:08,995
Speaker 1: so there was a group of young people meeting in

813
00:43:09,075 --> 00:43:12,114
Speaker 1: Riverside and I was living in Orange County, which they're

814
00:43:12,135 --> 00:43:16,455
Speaker 1: about 45 minutes apart. And Lonnie had actually started it,

815
00:43:16,535 --> 00:43:20,035
Speaker 1: Lonnie Frisbee, and he left and it sort of shrunk

816
00:43:20,115 --> 00:43:23,174
Speaker 1: down and they were looking for someone to take it over.

817
00:43:23,255 --> 00:43:26,305
Speaker 1: So I was hanging around Calvary Chapel. And there was

818
00:43:26,345 --> 00:43:28,485
Speaker 1: a bunch of pastors who were about nine, 10 years

819
00:43:28,585 --> 00:43:32,125
Speaker 1: older than me who had been rotating and speaking. And

820
00:43:32,415 --> 00:43:34,655
Speaker 1: one day, one of them said, hey, who's going to

821
00:43:34,695 --> 00:43:37,235
Speaker 1: Riverside this week? One said, well, I went there last week.

822
00:43:38,015 --> 00:43:40,055
Speaker 1: Another said, well, I'm going there next week. Well, I

823
00:43:40,075 --> 00:43:42,455
Speaker 1: don't want to go. They looked at me and said, hey, Greg,

824
00:43:42,475 --> 00:43:44,855
Speaker 1: you want to go? And I had my drafting board

825
00:43:44,895 --> 00:43:46,895
Speaker 1: set up in the corner of the office, and I

826
00:43:46,935 --> 00:43:49,905
Speaker 1: was doing freelance graphics to sort of support myself and

827
00:43:50,345 --> 00:43:52,745
Speaker 1: pretty much doing what nobody else wanted to do. I said,

828
00:43:52,805 --> 00:43:55,765
Speaker 1: I'll go. Yeah, I'll go. So I went up to Riverside,

829
00:43:56,725 --> 00:43:59,145
Speaker 1: and I showed up, and no one had told them

830
00:43:59,285 --> 00:44:03,045
Speaker 1: I was coming. And there was like some deacon guy

831
00:44:03,105 --> 00:44:05,605
Speaker 1: in charge, and I walked up high, and Greg Lorian

832
00:44:05,625 --> 00:44:07,925
Speaker 1: from Calvary Chapel, I'm here to speak. Someone told me

833
00:44:07,965 --> 00:44:09,685
Speaker 1: you were speaking. I said, well, I am.

834
00:44:09,725 --> 00:44:10,125
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm here.

835
00:44:10,145 --> 00:44:12,565
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know that you're here to speak. You

836
00:44:12,645 --> 00:44:15,635
Speaker 1: just sit there and I'll let you know. I'm like, brother, okay,

837
00:44:15,675 --> 00:44:17,575
Speaker 1: I'm just sitting there. Well, no one else showed up

838
00:44:17,595 --> 00:44:19,715
Speaker 1: because I was the guy. He said, go ahead. So

839
00:44:19,735 --> 00:44:23,145
Speaker 1: I spoke. It went well. I went back the next week.

840
00:44:23,785 --> 00:44:25,885
Speaker 1: It went well. They said, well, you can keep coming.

841
00:44:25,905 --> 00:44:29,045
Speaker 1: Then it started growing. And then people were starting to

842
00:44:29,085 --> 00:44:32,785
Speaker 1: call me pastor. I went, wait, I'm like 19 years old.

843
00:44:33,205 --> 00:44:37,075
Speaker 1: I've been a Christian two years. I'm still learning these

844
00:44:37,155 --> 00:44:40,755
Speaker 1: things myself. I'm not really qualified to be a pastor anymore.

845
00:44:41,115 --> 00:44:43,134
Speaker 1: I was looking for other people to take it over,

846
00:44:43,155 --> 00:44:45,745
Speaker 1: and no one would. So I thought, well, if I'm

847
00:44:45,765 --> 00:44:48,225
Speaker 1: going to be their pastor, I better work at this harder.

848
00:44:48,505 --> 00:44:51,425
Speaker 1: So I started building a library of books and started studying.

849
00:44:51,505 --> 00:44:54,805
Speaker 1: And literally, there would be things I believe that I

850
00:44:54,845 --> 00:44:57,585
Speaker 1: would be studying them and teaching them that night. And man,

851
00:44:57,625 --> 00:45:00,175
Speaker 1: if you want to really learn something, if you teach it,

852
00:45:00,205 --> 00:45:02,545
Speaker 1: you'll have to learn it, you know. So I'm getting

853
00:45:02,565 --> 00:45:04,645
Speaker 1: it sorted out, and then I would teach it that night.

854
00:45:04,665 --> 00:45:06,935
Speaker 1: And I had a great example of Chuck Smith, who

855
00:45:06,955 --> 00:45:10,285
Speaker 1: I would still go and listen to and So it grew,

856
00:45:10,565 --> 00:45:12,645
Speaker 1: and then we eventually left that little church we were

857
00:45:12,685 --> 00:45:16,745
Speaker 1: meeting in, found our own facility. Then we became a church.

858
00:45:17,545 --> 00:45:19,845
Speaker 1: Then it grew more. Now, fast forward to the 80s.

859
00:45:20,595 --> 00:45:23,075
Speaker 1: One day I get a phone call from some Christian magazine. Well,

860
00:45:23,135 --> 00:45:26,735
Speaker 1: as a megachurch pastor. I go, what? Oh, you're a megachurch.

861
00:45:26,795 --> 00:45:29,215
Speaker 1: I'd never even heard that term before. I never set

862
00:45:29,275 --> 00:45:31,965
Speaker 1: out to be a megachurch pastor. I just set out

863
00:45:32,065 --> 00:45:34,485
Speaker 1: to do the best job I could do. I just

864
00:45:34,525 --> 00:45:37,695
Speaker 1: want them to be the best taught people around and

865
00:45:37,715 --> 00:45:40,375
Speaker 1: do the best job I can for them. So then

866
00:45:40,535 --> 00:45:43,195
Speaker 1: it just continued to grow. And we built a bigger

867
00:45:43,255 --> 00:45:46,725
Speaker 1: building and added to our facilities. And we started doing

868
00:45:46,865 --> 00:45:50,285
Speaker 1: outreach things. And then we got into other things as well,

869
00:45:50,365 --> 00:45:54,105
Speaker 1: radio and TV and now online stuff. So it's just

870
00:45:54,145 --> 00:45:57,045
Speaker 1: been constantly growing. But the weird thing was I had

871
00:45:57,085 --> 00:46:01,625
Speaker 1: this desire to go be an evangelist, to travel around more.

872
00:46:01,805 --> 00:46:05,735
Speaker 1: So in 1990, Pastor Chuck came to me and said,

873
00:46:06,405 --> 00:46:08,085
Speaker 1: why don't you come down to Calvary and do a

874
00:46:08,145 --> 00:46:10,525
Speaker 1: Bible study for young people? Because I think they were

875
00:46:10,665 --> 00:46:12,565
Speaker 1: losing young people at that point. And I was still

876
00:46:12,585 --> 00:46:15,865
Speaker 1: pretty young, late 20s. And so I said, okay. And

877
00:46:15,885 --> 00:46:18,005
Speaker 1: I started doing it and it started to grow. And

878
00:46:18,045 --> 00:46:20,785
Speaker 1: Chuck said, why don't we go and do this on

879
00:46:20,825 --> 00:46:23,165
Speaker 1: a larger venue? I said, well, like where? And he goes,

880
00:46:23,225 --> 00:46:27,455
Speaker 1: in the Pacific Amphitheater, which seats like 17,000 people. I'm like, whoa,

881
00:46:27,515 --> 00:46:29,655
Speaker 1: that's pretty big. And he goes, well, we serve a

882
00:46:29,675 --> 00:46:32,295
Speaker 1: pretty big God, Greg, let's do it. Okay. So we

883
00:46:32,315 --> 00:46:34,645
Speaker 1: went there. And then the next year, we went to

884
00:46:34,745 --> 00:46:37,345
Speaker 1: Angel Stadium, and we've been doing that now for like

885
00:46:37,345 --> 00:46:40,325
Speaker 1: 34 years. Wow. Every year. And so we've gone around

886
00:46:40,345 --> 00:46:43,355
Speaker 1: the world to do it as well and done it

887
00:46:43,415 --> 00:46:46,275
Speaker 1: all across the United States. So it's sort of like

888
00:46:46,315 --> 00:46:49,235
Speaker 1: that desire I had to be an evangelist came later.

889
00:46:49,755 --> 00:46:52,295
Speaker 1: One thing I left out was I got to be

890
00:46:52,395 --> 00:46:53,915
Speaker 1: very good friends with Billy Graham.

891
00:46:54,655 --> 00:46:55,215
Speaker 2: Tell me about him.

892
00:46:55,515 --> 00:46:59,095
Speaker 1: So going back to my grandparents' house, Portrait of Jesus

893
00:46:59,175 --> 00:47:02,775
Speaker 1: on the Wall, they would watch Billy Graham. Wow. I

894
00:47:02,995 --> 00:47:05,815
Speaker 1: always kind of liked Billy Graham. So then after I

895
00:47:05,855 --> 00:47:08,735
Speaker 1: became a Christian, I thought, man, I'm going to go

896
00:47:08,775 --> 00:47:10,875
Speaker 1: hear him. So I went to a Billy Graham crusade.

897
00:47:11,575 --> 00:47:13,555
Speaker 1: And he does the thing where he calls people forward

898
00:47:13,575 --> 00:47:16,205
Speaker 1: to accept Christ. You know, walk forward and ask Jesus

899
00:47:16,245 --> 00:47:18,385
Speaker 1: into your life. And I walked forward, even though I

900
00:47:18,425 --> 00:47:20,725
Speaker 1: was a Christian and already a pastor, just to get

901
00:47:20,765 --> 00:47:22,344
Speaker 1: a closer look at him. Like, oh, I want to

902
00:47:22,365 --> 00:47:25,205
Speaker 1: look at this guy. And so I had a little envelope,

903
00:47:25,225 --> 00:47:27,585
Speaker 1: manila envelope, with an article that had been written about

904
00:47:27,625 --> 00:47:30,005
Speaker 1: our new church. And I was going to give it

905
00:47:30,025 --> 00:47:32,174
Speaker 1: to him that night. And so I wrote his name

906
00:47:32,255 --> 00:47:36,015
Speaker 1: on the envelope, and there's a little line as he's leaving,

907
00:47:36,075 --> 00:47:38,775
Speaker 1: and I reach out the envelope, and someone grabs it

908
00:47:39,145 --> 00:47:41,495
Speaker 1: to give to Billy. And I realized, yes, since it

909
00:47:41,535 --> 00:47:44,165
Speaker 1: left my hand, I misspelled his last name. It was like,

910
00:47:44,565 --> 00:47:49,465
Speaker 1: not G-R-A-H-A-M, it was just G-R-A-M. So, oh no, I

911
00:47:49,505 --> 00:47:53,805
Speaker 1: misspelled his name. Then I met him in 1985, and

912
00:47:53,845 --> 00:47:57,795
Speaker 1: our church was growing at that point. And then He

913
00:47:57,835 --> 00:48:00,135
Speaker 1: was getting older. And so as he was ending his

914
00:48:00,215 --> 00:48:03,365
Speaker 1: crusade ministry, I was starting mine. And he was aware

915
00:48:03,405 --> 00:48:05,825
Speaker 1: of what I was doing. And I was friends with

916
00:48:05,885 --> 00:48:08,485
Speaker 1: his son, Franklin. And then he asked me to come

917
00:48:08,525 --> 00:48:10,565
Speaker 1: on his board of directors, which had been on for

918
00:48:10,565 --> 00:48:13,785
Speaker 1: 25 years. And so then Billy said, would you help

919
00:48:13,825 --> 00:48:16,805
Speaker 1: me with my messages? And I said, yeah, I guess

920
00:48:16,845 --> 00:48:19,565
Speaker 1: I need help with my illustrations. They were kind of dated.

921
00:48:20,265 --> 00:48:24,015
Speaker 1: I remember in Minneapolis, he was speaking. So Smashing Pumpkins

922
00:48:24,035 --> 00:48:26,995
Speaker 1: had a song out called Rat in a Cage. And

923
00:48:27,035 --> 00:48:29,705
Speaker 1: I saw it. use the lyric from Rat in the Cage,

924
00:48:29,825 --> 00:48:32,805
Speaker 1: put it in there. And then I explained in the notes,

925
00:48:32,875 --> 00:48:35,295
Speaker 1: Smashing Pumpkins is a band, you know, because I didn't

926
00:48:35,315 --> 00:48:38,115
Speaker 1: want to think I meant Smashing Pumpkins, you know. And

927
00:48:38,195 --> 00:48:41,695
Speaker 1: so he was up there speaking and Billy Graham came

928
00:48:41,715 --> 00:48:45,335
Speaker 1: in and said, Smashing Pumpkins said, and there's a song

929
00:48:45,355 --> 00:48:48,475
Speaker 1: by Smashing Pumpkins. And I was like, yes. And so

930
00:48:48,845 --> 00:48:50,364
Speaker 1: I was just trying to help him with stuff that

931
00:48:50,405 --> 00:48:54,145
Speaker 1: would connect to a younger audience. So I spent a

932
00:48:54,165 --> 00:48:57,705
Speaker 1: lot of time hanging out with him. And now another thing,

933
00:48:57,745 --> 00:49:01,965
Speaker 1: when I was always, I sought out older people. Instead

934
00:49:02,005 --> 00:49:03,935
Speaker 1: of wanting to hang out people that were my age,

935
00:49:04,725 --> 00:49:06,795
Speaker 1: I wanted to meet older people. I think it's probably

936
00:49:06,835 --> 00:49:09,815
Speaker 1: because I didn't have parents. So I would see everything

937
00:49:09,855 --> 00:49:12,995
Speaker 1: I learned about pastoring, I learned from Chuck Smith. Everything

938
00:49:13,035 --> 00:49:15,495
Speaker 1: I learned about evangelism, I learned from Billy Graham.

939
00:49:15,595 --> 00:49:15,775
Speaker 2: Yeah.

940
00:49:16,015 --> 00:49:18,725
Speaker 1: And to me, he was the gold standard of evangelists

941
00:49:18,765 --> 00:49:24,594
Speaker 1: because Billy was a really humble guy. And he was

942
00:49:24,635 --> 00:49:28,505
Speaker 1: obviously a very faithful, person, but he was always approachable

943
00:49:29,265 --> 00:49:31,785
Speaker 1: and very down to earth. I mean, just the way

944
00:49:31,965 --> 00:49:35,545
Speaker 1: he dealt with Johnny Cash. Because Johnny, you know, they

945
00:49:35,585 --> 00:49:39,205
Speaker 1: were friends, but Johnny would, oh, this happened and that happened.

946
00:49:39,285 --> 00:49:42,065
Speaker 1: And people would say, Billy, don't bring Johnny out to

947
00:49:42,105 --> 00:49:44,305
Speaker 1: your crusades anymore. He goes, oh, he's my friend. He's coming.

948
00:49:44,325 --> 00:49:48,845
Speaker 1: He's coming. And I love that friendship that he maintained.

949
00:49:48,925 --> 00:49:52,455
Speaker 1: And they really appreciated each other. And I thought that

950
00:49:52,495 --> 00:49:55,475
Speaker 1: was said a lot, you know, that he would build

951
00:49:55,535 --> 00:49:58,275
Speaker 1: a bridge to someone who may be struggling, but not

952
00:49:58,375 --> 00:50:00,595
Speaker 1: write them off, but encourage them and help them. And

953
00:50:00,615 --> 00:50:03,975
Speaker 1: they're almost like opposites, but they actually had a lot

954
00:50:04,015 --> 00:50:07,725
Speaker 1: in common. They're both Southern boys, both raised in the church,

955
00:50:07,785 --> 00:50:08,665
Speaker 1: gospel roots.

956
00:50:08,925 --> 00:50:11,305
Speaker 2: And Johnny really loved him. He talked about him a lot.

957
00:50:11,405 --> 00:50:11,965
Speaker 1: Did he?

958
00:50:12,045 --> 00:50:12,825
Speaker 2: Really loved him.

959
00:50:12,865 --> 00:50:13,085
Speaker 1: Yeah.

960
00:50:14,015 --> 00:50:17,215
Speaker 2: How are Jesus' teachings and church theology the same, and

961
00:50:17,275 --> 00:50:18,035
Speaker 2: how are they different?

962
00:50:19,305 --> 00:50:22,665
Speaker 1: Well, I think if church theology is what it should be,

963
00:50:23,285 --> 00:50:26,245
Speaker 1: it will be based on the teachings of Jesus. Now,

964
00:50:26,285 --> 00:50:29,265
Speaker 1: sometimes people set up kind of a false dichotomy of,

965
00:50:30,105 --> 00:50:32,525
Speaker 1: I believe in the red letters only. And, you know,

966
00:50:32,575 --> 00:50:35,015
Speaker 1: there are certain translations of the Bible that will take

967
00:50:35,055 --> 00:50:37,695
Speaker 1: the words of Christ and put them in red. So

968
00:50:37,715 --> 00:50:39,215
Speaker 1: when you get to the Sermon on the Mount, it's

969
00:50:39,275 --> 00:50:41,925
Speaker 1: pages of red letters only. But then, you know, then

970
00:50:41,945 --> 00:50:44,125
Speaker 1: it'd be read here and there as Jesus spoke. But

971
00:50:44,765 --> 00:50:47,405
Speaker 1: I believe all of the Bible is red letters, if

972
00:50:47,425 --> 00:50:50,895
Speaker 1: you will. In other words, the Bible says all Scripture

973
00:50:50,935 --> 00:50:54,195
Speaker 1: is given by inspiration of God. Like I said earlier,

974
00:50:54,415 --> 00:50:59,114
Speaker 1: Jesus is in the Old Testament concealed, meaning Jesus isn't

975
00:50:59,155 --> 00:51:02,035
Speaker 1: walking around in the Old Testament as Jesus. But I

976
00:51:02,055 --> 00:51:05,555
Speaker 1: think he makes some special appearances on what we call Christophanies,

977
00:51:06,195 --> 00:51:09,265
Speaker 1: like Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego in the fiery furnace scene.

978
00:51:09,935 --> 00:51:13,135
Speaker 1: And Nebuchadnezzar throws them in. Everyone thinks they're dead. Next

979
00:51:13,155 --> 00:51:15,515
Speaker 1: thing he knows, they're walking around. And he says, wait,

980
00:51:15,535 --> 00:51:17,275
Speaker 1: there's a fourth guy in there. And he looks like

981
00:51:17,315 --> 00:51:20,455
Speaker 1: the son of God. We would classify that as an

982
00:51:20,495 --> 00:51:23,655
Speaker 1: appearance of Jesus in the Old Testament. So then in

983
00:51:23,695 --> 00:51:26,675
Speaker 1: the New Testament, he's born of Bethlehem. He has this ministry.

984
00:51:26,695 --> 00:51:31,015
Speaker 1: He's crucified. He rises again. Theology is just the study

985
00:51:31,055 --> 00:51:33,995
Speaker 1: of God. We'd have to be afraid of the word

986
00:51:34,015 --> 00:51:38,125
Speaker 1: theology because it's just learning more about God. And I'm

987
00:51:38,165 --> 00:51:41,665
Speaker 1: a theologian in a technical sense. Maybe I'm not an academic,

988
00:51:42,405 --> 00:51:45,415
Speaker 1: but I study God and the Bible all the time.

989
00:51:46,195 --> 00:51:49,275
Speaker 1: So church theology, if it is being done as it

990
00:51:49,395 --> 00:51:53,015
Speaker 1: ought to be done, will reflect the teachings of Jesus,

991
00:51:53,075 --> 00:51:55,375
Speaker 1: but really the teachings of all of the Bible.

992
00:51:56,355 --> 00:51:57,134
Speaker 2: Tell me about faith.

993
00:51:58,615 --> 00:52:02,495
Speaker 1: The Bible technical definition of faith is the substance of

994
00:52:02,555 --> 00:52:06,405
Speaker 1: things so far, the evidence of things not seen. Faith

995
00:52:06,505 --> 00:52:09,445
Speaker 1: is not just believing God can do it. It's believing

996
00:52:09,525 --> 00:52:14,895
Speaker 1: God will do it. It's taking action. It's movement. You know,

997
00:52:14,935 --> 00:52:16,995
Speaker 1: when you read about faith in the Bible, it's always

998
00:52:17,195 --> 00:52:20,515
Speaker 1: doing things. Like in Hebrews 11, sometimes called the Hall

999
00:52:20,555 --> 00:52:22,615
Speaker 1: of Faith, because it's like a gallery of all the

1000
00:52:22,655 --> 00:52:24,835
Speaker 1: great men and women of faith of the Old Testament.

1001
00:52:25,575 --> 00:52:28,355
Speaker 1: It's about things they did. Like by faith, Noah built

1002
00:52:28,395 --> 00:52:31,415
Speaker 1: the ark. By faith, this happened. By faith, that happened.

1003
00:52:31,435 --> 00:52:35,175
Speaker 1: So it's actions of God's people. So You know, we

1004
00:52:35,195 --> 00:52:37,765
Speaker 1: have the Bible and we have the promises of God.

1005
00:52:38,685 --> 00:52:41,345
Speaker 1: Faith is when I choose to believe them for myself

1006
00:52:42,205 --> 00:52:44,485
Speaker 1: and I put it into practice. So I'll give you

1007
00:52:44,525 --> 00:52:50,245
Speaker 1: an example where faith can overpower even emotions. Not long

1008
00:52:50,325 --> 00:52:53,885
Speaker 1: after my son died, something would trigger a memory of

1009
00:52:53,925 --> 00:52:57,485
Speaker 1: him and I would just, and I would like say

1010
00:52:57,585 --> 00:53:00,785
Speaker 1: or think, I'll never see him again. I'll never hear

1011
00:53:00,825 --> 00:53:04,205
Speaker 1: his voice again. Then I would quote scripture to myself.

1012
00:53:04,955 --> 00:53:08,185
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'd say, Greg, shut up. Jesus said, I am

1013
00:53:08,225 --> 00:53:10,665
Speaker 1: the resurrection and the life. He that believes in me,

1014
00:53:10,725 --> 00:53:13,924
Speaker 1: though he were dead, yet shall he live. Whosoever lives

1015
00:53:14,005 --> 00:53:16,665
Speaker 1: and believes in me shall never die. Greg, you'll see

1016
00:53:16,705 --> 00:53:19,424
Speaker 1: your son again in heaven. And all of a sudden,

1017
00:53:19,445 --> 00:53:22,425
Speaker 1: it would just lift me out of this pit of

1018
00:53:22,485 --> 00:53:26,685
Speaker 1: despair and darkness, and I would just get a heavenly

1019
00:53:26,765 --> 00:53:31,094
Speaker 1: perspective again. Or faith might be, hey, that person over there,

1020
00:53:31,135 --> 00:53:33,375
Speaker 1: I think, You know, someone needs to talk to them.

1021
00:53:33,415 --> 00:53:36,875
Speaker 1: They look like they're hurting, like they're in pain. Maybe

1022
00:53:36,915 --> 00:53:39,225
Speaker 1: I can help them. I find that very few people

1023
00:53:39,305 --> 00:53:41,605
Speaker 1: will turn me down if I say, could I pray

1024
00:53:41,665 --> 00:53:45,305
Speaker 1: for you? Almost anyone will accept a prayer. But I

1025
00:53:45,345 --> 00:53:48,605
Speaker 1: might tell them about Jesus, or it might be, let's

1026
00:53:48,645 --> 00:53:50,865
Speaker 1: go try this thing. Let's do this thing. That's an

1027
00:53:50,945 --> 00:53:54,444
Speaker 1: act of faith. Someone's sick. Let's pray that the Lord

1028
00:53:54,505 --> 00:53:57,155
Speaker 1: heals them. We don't know that God will heal everyone,

1029
00:53:57,555 --> 00:53:59,955
Speaker 1: but we know He heals many. And so by faith,

1030
00:54:00,115 --> 00:54:03,745
Speaker 1: we pray. You know, so it's just, it's action and

1031
00:54:03,785 --> 00:54:07,465
Speaker 1: it's taking the promises of God and putting them into effect.

1032
00:54:07,585 --> 00:54:10,565
Speaker 1: And now sometimes it can be exaggerated, like it's a

1033
00:54:10,625 --> 00:54:13,765
Speaker 1: mystical force that we can harness and just speak things

1034
00:54:13,845 --> 00:54:17,345
Speaker 1: into existence. It's not that. Jesus summed it up in

1035
00:54:17,385 --> 00:54:20,185
Speaker 1: John 15 when he said, if you maintain the living

1036
00:54:20,265 --> 00:54:23,185
Speaker 1: communion with me and my words are at home in you,

1037
00:54:23,865 --> 00:54:26,485
Speaker 1: you can ask at once for yourself, whatever your heart

1038
00:54:26,545 --> 00:54:30,255
Speaker 1: desires and it's yours. So we immediately gravitate toward the

1039
00:54:30,655 --> 00:54:32,555
Speaker 1: latter part of the earth. Oh, ask for whatever my

1040
00:54:32,595 --> 00:54:36,275
Speaker 1: heart desires or my heart desires, you know, whatever. And

1041
00:54:36,375 --> 00:54:39,395
Speaker 1: some crazy thing. Well, no, if you maintain a living

1042
00:54:39,485 --> 00:54:41,985
Speaker 1: communion with me, Jesus says, and my word is at

1043
00:54:42,025 --> 00:54:44,845
Speaker 1: home in you. When you are reading the Bible and

1044
00:54:44,865 --> 00:54:47,645
Speaker 1: you're walking with the Lord, I think your desires begin

1045
00:54:47,685 --> 00:54:50,305
Speaker 1: to change. But, you know, ultimately it has to be

1046
00:54:50,365 --> 00:54:52,935
Speaker 1: according to the will of God. But the Lord will,

1047
00:54:53,015 --> 00:54:55,895
Speaker 1: I think, put something in our heart that we will

1048
00:54:55,915 --> 00:54:59,245
Speaker 1: then pray for that he will answer. So ultimately, prayer

1049
00:54:59,925 --> 00:55:01,785
Speaker 1: is not getting God to do what I want him

1050
00:55:01,825 --> 00:55:04,725
Speaker 1: to do. It's getting myself in alignment with God. And

1051
00:55:04,765 --> 00:55:06,985
Speaker 1: how do we know what his will is? Well, he

1052
00:55:07,025 --> 00:55:09,565
Speaker 1: speaks to us through his word. Tell me about the

1053
00:55:09,605 --> 00:55:12,765
Speaker 1: Holy Spirit. Well, he's the third member of the Trinity,

1054
00:55:13,045 --> 00:55:18,025
Speaker 1: probably the most misunderstood member, because we have the Father.

1055
00:55:18,045 --> 00:55:21,835
Speaker 1: I think we can all have a basic concept of

1056
00:55:21,895 --> 00:55:26,174
Speaker 1: God as a Father. God the Son, that's pretty easy

1057
00:55:26,235 --> 00:55:29,925
Speaker 1: to wrap our mind around. The perfect example is the

1058
00:55:29,945 --> 00:55:32,325
Speaker 1: story of the prodigal son. We have a father. Was

1059
00:55:32,365 --> 00:55:35,105
Speaker 1: the son go astray? No, that's not speaking of Jesus.

1060
00:55:35,205 --> 00:55:37,745
Speaker 1: It's us wandering away from God. But we can see

1061
00:55:37,785 --> 00:55:42,485
Speaker 1: these pictures. But the Holy Spirit, he's compared to the wind.

1062
00:55:42,985 --> 00:55:46,995
Speaker 1: He's compared to fire. He comes on Jesus in the

1063
00:55:47,055 --> 00:55:51,075
Speaker 1: form of a dove. So because these pictures are used,

1064
00:55:51,575 --> 00:55:54,315
Speaker 1: we can think of them almost like the force, like

1065
00:55:54,375 --> 00:55:57,745
Speaker 1: Star Wars, trust the force. But he isn't a force.

1066
00:55:57,805 --> 00:55:58,385
Speaker 1: He's a heat.

1067
00:55:59,145 --> 00:56:01,665
Speaker 2: He's more earthly than God, the Father?

1068
00:56:02,665 --> 00:56:05,255
Speaker 1: He's just a part of the Trinity. And I think

1069
00:56:05,295 --> 00:56:08,295
Speaker 1: it's very hard to distinguish, like, because I think I

1070
00:56:08,335 --> 00:56:11,735
Speaker 1: could say to you, the Holy Spirit just spoke to

1071
00:56:11,775 --> 00:56:15,385
Speaker 1: my heart. to tell you about Jesus so you can

1072
00:56:15,445 --> 00:56:18,785
Speaker 1: come into a closer relationship with the Father. So they

1073
00:56:18,825 --> 00:56:21,945
Speaker 1: work together. So it's not like, here's this, and then

1074
00:56:22,225 --> 00:56:25,375
Speaker 1: he's over here somewhere. They're working in harmony. Like, here's

1075
00:56:25,415 --> 00:56:27,575
Speaker 1: an example of all of them in action at the

1076
00:56:27,615 --> 00:56:31,675
Speaker 1: same time. Jesus is baptized in the Jordan River by

1077
00:56:31,735 --> 00:56:35,075
Speaker 1: John the Baptist. As he's being baptized, the Holy Spirit

1078
00:56:35,135 --> 00:56:37,715
Speaker 1: comes upon him in the form of a dove. And

1079
00:56:37,755 --> 00:56:40,425
Speaker 1: then the Father says from heaven, this is my beloved

1080
00:56:40,505 --> 00:56:44,035
Speaker 1: Son in whom I'm well-pleased. Or we read in Genesis

1081
00:56:44,455 --> 00:56:48,195
Speaker 1: at creation, the Spirit of God hovered over the waters

1082
00:56:48,315 --> 00:56:52,035
Speaker 1: and God said, let there be light. And then God says,

1083
00:56:52,095 --> 00:56:54,995
Speaker 1: let us make man in our image. Oh, wait, who's

1084
00:56:55,035 --> 00:56:58,114
Speaker 1: he talking to? Angels? No, we're made in the image

1085
00:56:58,175 --> 00:57:02,055
Speaker 1: of God. So we see Father, Son, Holy Spirit working

1086
00:57:02,115 --> 00:57:04,715
Speaker 1: in harmony together. It's actually not that easy to fully

1087
00:57:04,755 --> 00:57:08,155
Speaker 1: wrap your mind around. But the Holy Spirit is a person.

1088
00:57:08,375 --> 00:57:11,435
Speaker 1: He has a personality. Jesus spoke of him and said,

1089
00:57:11,575 --> 00:57:15,135
Speaker 1: when he has come, not when it has come, he

1090
00:57:15,155 --> 00:57:19,555
Speaker 1: will convince the world of righteousness and the judgment to come.

1091
00:57:19,685 --> 00:57:21,785
Speaker 1: So the Holy Spirit has a work, and the primary

1092
00:57:21,845 --> 00:57:25,065
Speaker 1: work of the Holy Spirit is to bring us to Jesus.

1093
00:57:25,125 --> 00:57:27,665
Speaker 1: And so I think when someone feels like guilt or

1094
00:57:27,725 --> 00:57:31,325
Speaker 1: remorse for their sin, or they sense, I need Jesus,

1095
00:57:31,405 --> 00:57:34,045
Speaker 1: and they're drawn to Jesus, that's the Holy Spirit doing

1096
00:57:34,085 --> 00:57:37,075
Speaker 1: his work, bringing you to Christ. And then how do

1097
00:57:37,095 --> 00:57:39,055
Speaker 1: we approach the Father? We go to the Father through

1098
00:57:39,075 --> 00:57:42,905
Speaker 1: the Son. And it's interesting because if he's a force,

1099
00:57:43,945 --> 00:57:46,325
Speaker 1: because the Bible says we can insult the Holy Spirit,

1100
00:57:47,025 --> 00:57:50,665
Speaker 1: we can resist the Holy Spirit, and we can blaspheme

1101
00:57:50,705 --> 00:57:55,045
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit. So you can't blaspheme the wind. I

1102
00:57:55,105 --> 00:57:59,635
Speaker 1: can't insult a force that's a force. But because he's

1103
00:57:59,715 --> 00:58:03,675
Speaker 1: a he, he can be resisted, insulted, lied to even.

1104
00:58:03,995 --> 00:58:07,675
Speaker 1: Because on one occasion, two people named Ananias and Sapphire

1105
00:58:08,355 --> 00:58:11,575
Speaker 1: were lying to the people in the church, and Peter said,

1106
00:58:11,615 --> 00:58:13,795
Speaker 1: you lied to the Holy Spirit. So it's very interesting.

1107
00:58:14,215 --> 00:58:17,675
Speaker 1: You know, he is a personality with a distinct plan

1108
00:58:17,815 --> 00:58:21,285
Speaker 1: and purpose, working in harmony with the Father and with Jesus.

1109
00:58:21,645 --> 00:58:24,485
Speaker 2: Does the Holy Spirit exist in the Old Testament as well?

1110
00:58:24,565 --> 00:58:28,205
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Like I said, in the beginning of creation,

1111
00:58:28,765 --> 00:58:31,665
Speaker 1: The Spirit brooded. The Bible uses the word brooded, kind

1112
00:58:31,745 --> 00:58:34,185
Speaker 1: of like hovered, you know. Oh, yes, well, the Holy

1113
00:58:34,225 --> 00:58:37,615
Speaker 1: Spirit came upon the prophet Elijah. The Holy Spirit would

1114
00:58:37,655 --> 00:58:41,595
Speaker 1: come upon Samson when he would do his supernatural miracles

1115
00:58:41,715 --> 00:58:45,355
Speaker 1: and destroying Philistines and all the things that he did. So, yes,

1116
00:58:45,375 --> 00:58:49,195
Speaker 1: the Holy Spirit is very much active in the Old

1117
00:58:49,235 --> 00:58:50,035
Speaker 1: Testament as well.

1118
00:58:50,335 --> 00:58:52,835
Speaker 2: When did burnt offerings stop happening?

1119
00:58:53,655 --> 00:58:57,315
Speaker 1: Well, all the burnt offerings were pointing to one thing, Jesus.

1120
00:58:57,975 --> 00:59:01,215
Speaker 1: Like the first verse in the Bible that points to

1121
00:59:01,295 --> 00:59:04,725
Speaker 1: Jesus is in Genesis 3. After Adam and Eve sinned,

1122
00:59:05,705 --> 00:59:09,405
Speaker 1: ate of the forbidden fruit, God says to Satan, there

1123
00:59:09,465 --> 00:59:12,135
Speaker 1: is coming one who will crush your head and you

1124
00:59:12,155 --> 00:59:15,395
Speaker 1: will bruise his heel. So after Satan misleads Adam and Eve,

1125
00:59:16,095 --> 00:59:18,785
Speaker 1: God kind of puts Satan on notice. It's like game on.

1126
00:59:19,605 --> 00:59:22,965
Speaker 1: There's coming one who's going to crush your head. So

1127
00:59:23,245 --> 00:59:26,285
Speaker 1: Satan knows Jesus is coming. And I think he was

1128
00:59:26,305 --> 00:59:28,485
Speaker 1: doing everything he could to stop it, starting the book

1129
00:59:28,525 --> 00:59:31,965
Speaker 1: of Exodus. All the little Jewish baby boys, the Pharaoh

1130
00:59:31,985 --> 00:59:34,285
Speaker 1: commends they be put to death. The book of Esther,

1131
00:59:34,725 --> 00:59:37,585
Speaker 1: decree given out, kill all the Jews. Because Jesus was

1132
00:59:37,625 --> 00:59:40,745
Speaker 1: going to come as a Jew through a messianic line

1133
00:59:40,785 --> 00:59:43,845
Speaker 1: that came through King David on through the New Testament.

1134
00:59:43,905 --> 00:59:47,255
Speaker 1: All these passages that point to him. Isaiah 9, 6,

1135
00:59:47,255 --> 00:59:49,335
Speaker 1: unto you a child is born, unto you a son

1136
00:59:49,415 --> 00:59:52,095
Speaker 1: is given. His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor of

1137
00:59:52,115 --> 00:59:55,635
Speaker 1: the Mighty God. Then Micah 5, 2, you Bethlehem, though

1138
00:59:55,675 --> 00:59:58,635
Speaker 1: you be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out

1139
00:59:58,655 --> 01:00:01,265
Speaker 1: of you shall come forth one. whose origins have been

1140
01:00:01,285 --> 01:00:03,885
Speaker 1: from everlasting. So all these are like pointing to the

1141
01:00:03,945 --> 01:00:07,665
Speaker 1: New Testament. So Old Testament sacrifices, you take the lamb,

1142
01:00:07,705 --> 01:00:10,205
Speaker 1: you slay him on the altar, you sprinkle the blood.

1143
01:00:10,265 --> 01:00:12,895
Speaker 1: That's a symbol of the lamb of God. So when

1144
01:00:12,935 --> 01:00:16,795
Speaker 1: Jesus begins his public ministry, John the Baptist, his cousin says,

1145
01:00:17,255 --> 01:00:19,655
Speaker 1: Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin

1146
01:00:19,695 --> 01:00:22,415
Speaker 1: of the world. In other words, it's done now. And

1147
01:00:22,455 --> 01:00:26,285
Speaker 1: so when Jesus died on the cross, he gave seven statements.

1148
01:00:26,365 --> 01:00:29,575
Speaker 1: And one of those statements was, it is done. That's

1149
01:00:29,625 --> 01:00:33,365
Speaker 1: what was done. All the Old Testament sacrifices were fulfilled.

1150
01:00:33,785 --> 01:00:35,985
Speaker 1: All of that was complete. So we no longer have

1151
01:00:36,045 --> 01:00:40,425
Speaker 1: to slay the animal at the altar. The Lamb of

1152
01:00:40,485 --> 01:00:43,845
Speaker 1: God has been slain. His blood has been shed. And

1153
01:00:43,885 --> 01:00:45,925
Speaker 1: so now we can approach the Father through the Son.

1154
01:00:46,875 --> 01:00:47,795
Speaker 2: Tell me about baptism.

1155
01:00:47,815 --> 01:00:50,955
Speaker 1: It's kind of like communion. They're what we might call

1156
01:00:51,175 --> 01:00:56,205
Speaker 1: ordinances of the church. Baptism is in the Bible. It's

1157
01:00:56,585 --> 01:01:01,545
Speaker 1: described as like going into a grave, like as many

1158
01:01:01,585 --> 01:01:05,795
Speaker 1: of you were buried in baptism with Christ. So it's

1159
01:01:05,815 --> 01:01:08,455
Speaker 1: sort of like the old life in the symbolic way

1160
01:01:08,795 --> 01:01:11,615
Speaker 1: is ending. It's not like when you're baptized, your sins

1161
01:01:11,695 --> 01:01:14,405
Speaker 1: are washed away. Your sins are forgiven when you put

1162
01:01:14,445 --> 01:01:17,225
Speaker 1: your faith in Christ and ask him to come into

1163
01:01:17,265 --> 01:01:20,725
Speaker 1: your life. But baptism is an outward showing of that.

1164
01:01:20,845 --> 01:01:25,165
Speaker 1: I've described it as an outward showing of an inward doing. Like, okay,

1165
01:01:25,185 --> 01:01:29,415
Speaker 1: now I'm gonna publicly proclaim to everyone and anyone that

1166
01:01:29,475 --> 01:01:32,955
Speaker 1: I'm a follower of Jesus. And so the criteria for

1167
01:01:32,995 --> 01:01:36,315
Speaker 1: baptism is, is you have to repent and be baptized.

1168
01:01:36,795 --> 01:01:40,075
Speaker 1: Repent means to change your direction, turn from your sin.

1169
01:01:40,895 --> 01:01:42,515
Speaker 1: And there's a story in the book of Acts of

1170
01:01:42,555 --> 01:01:46,775
Speaker 1: a guy from Ethiopia who came searching for God, and Philip,

1171
01:01:46,855 --> 01:01:50,055
Speaker 1: an evangelist, led him to Christ. And the man said,

1172
01:01:50,135 --> 01:01:53,035
Speaker 1: what hinders me from being baptized? And Philip said, if

1173
01:01:53,075 --> 01:01:55,635
Speaker 1: you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ of all of

1174
01:01:55,675 --> 01:01:57,815
Speaker 1: your heart, you may be. He says, I believe. So

1175
01:01:57,835 --> 01:02:01,555
Speaker 1: they baptized him. So you need to believe. You need

1176
01:02:01,595 --> 01:02:04,565
Speaker 1: to repent. And if you don't do those things, then

1177
01:02:04,625 --> 01:02:07,645
Speaker 1: it doesn't have any great significance. So it's a symbol,

1178
01:02:07,665 --> 01:02:10,435
Speaker 1: but a beautiful one. There's been like this whole like

1179
01:02:10,595 --> 01:02:15,935
Speaker 1: baptism movement, like thousands and thousands of people being baptized.

1180
01:02:16,295 --> 01:02:20,395
Speaker 1: We alone have baptized like 5,000 people in the last

1181
01:02:20,475 --> 01:02:24,285
Speaker 1: three years. We called it the Jesus Revolution Baptism, kind

1182
01:02:24,345 --> 01:02:27,545
Speaker 1: of connected to the film. And people were lining up

1183
01:02:28,045 --> 01:02:31,605
Speaker 1: out on the beach, long lines coming down to be baptized.

1184
01:02:31,645 --> 01:02:34,825
Speaker 1: So that's another kind of recent phenomenon. I've not seen

1185
01:02:34,865 --> 01:02:37,805
Speaker 1: that anywhere. This is kind of something that's happened in

1186
01:02:37,825 --> 01:02:41,285
Speaker 1: the last few years. What's the meaning of wearing a cross?

1187
01:02:42,535 --> 01:02:45,075
Speaker 1: It's a symbol. You know, it's interesting. The early church,

1188
01:02:45,115 --> 01:02:48,495
Speaker 1: they didn't wear crosses. They didn't have crosses on churches.

1189
01:02:49,115 --> 01:02:52,555
Speaker 1: Symbol of the early church was the fish. But the

1190
01:02:52,635 --> 01:02:55,255
Speaker 1: cross came later. Of course, Christ died on the cross.

1191
01:02:56,285 --> 01:02:57,525
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you can wear a cross and

1192
01:02:57,545 --> 01:02:59,105
Speaker 1: not believe in what it says. It can be a

1193
01:02:59,165 --> 01:03:02,185
Speaker 1: fashion accessory. You can tat it on your arm, whatever.

1194
01:03:02,805 --> 01:03:05,045
Speaker 1: People put them on jackets, all kinds of things, you know.

1195
01:03:05,065 --> 01:03:07,085
Speaker 1: But if you were doing it with meaning, what would

1196
01:03:07,125 --> 01:03:08,745
Speaker 1: the meaning be? It would mean I'm a Christian. I

1197
01:03:09,145 --> 01:03:12,585
Speaker 1: identify as a follower of Jesus Christ, and I don't

1198
01:03:12,765 --> 01:03:15,425
Speaker 1: care who sees it, and I'd be happy to Maybe

1199
01:03:15,465 --> 01:03:17,485
Speaker 1: you have a conversation with you about it. I don't

1200
01:03:17,505 --> 01:03:19,805
Speaker 1: wear a cross, and it's not because I'm against it

1201
01:03:19,845 --> 01:03:21,865
Speaker 1: in any way. Maybe I'll wear one tomorrow. A lot

1202
01:03:21,905 --> 01:03:24,105
Speaker 1: of people do. My wife wears one. I know a

1203
01:03:24,145 --> 01:03:25,685
Speaker 1: lot of people who wear them. I think it's a

1204
01:03:25,725 --> 01:03:27,235
Speaker 1: beautiful way to express your faith.

1205
01:03:27,555 --> 01:03:28,555
Speaker 2: Tell me about communion.

1206
01:03:29,835 --> 01:03:32,135
Speaker 1: Jesus had the Last Supper. This kind of comes back

1207
01:03:32,155 --> 01:03:36,535
Speaker 1: to the Old Testament, old sacrifices. They had a lot

1208
01:03:36,555 --> 01:03:40,795
Speaker 1: of meals together, and Jesus said they could tell something

1209
01:03:40,835 --> 01:03:43,505
Speaker 1: was different. They didn't know it was the Last Supper.

1210
01:03:43,525 --> 01:03:45,825
Speaker 1: They weren't all lined up behind a table like in

1211
01:03:45,845 --> 01:03:49,345
Speaker 1: the Da Vinci painting. They were just probably like sitting

1212
01:03:49,385 --> 01:03:52,125
Speaker 1: probably like we're sitting with low to the ground and

1213
01:03:52,165 --> 01:03:54,835
Speaker 1: cushions with the table. And you take the different foods

1214
01:03:54,895 --> 01:03:58,795
Speaker 1: and dip them and such. And so he says, take

1215
01:03:58,855 --> 01:04:01,595
Speaker 1: this and eat. This is my body, which is broken

1216
01:04:01,635 --> 01:04:03,895
Speaker 1: for you. And when you drink this cup and they

1217
01:04:03,935 --> 01:04:07,325
Speaker 1: realize this is different. and he was instituting what we

1218
01:04:07,365 --> 01:04:11,085
Speaker 1: call communion. It's also called the Lord's Supper. So Paul

1219
01:04:11,425 --> 01:04:15,665
Speaker 1: talks about it, the apostle, and he says, when a

1220
01:04:15,685 --> 01:04:19,495
Speaker 1: man receives communion, a woman too, obviously, let him examine

1221
01:04:19,535 --> 01:04:21,955
Speaker 1: himself to see if he is in the faith. So

1222
01:04:22,735 --> 01:04:26,035
Speaker 1: when we do communion, I always say to people, look

1223
01:04:26,075 --> 01:04:28,875
Speaker 1: at your life, and if there's anything that is not

1224
01:04:28,995 --> 01:04:31,915
Speaker 1: right with God or something you need to pray about

1225
01:04:31,955 --> 01:04:34,875
Speaker 1: or repent of, This is the time to do it.

1226
01:04:34,895 --> 01:04:37,755
Speaker 1: But I also say, maybe there's somebody here that needs

1227
01:04:37,795 --> 01:04:40,315
Speaker 1: a healing touch from the Lord. And it's funny because

1228
01:04:40,375 --> 01:04:43,695
Speaker 1: Kelsey Grammer has a communion scene in the Jesus Revolution film.

1229
01:04:44,395 --> 01:04:47,685
Speaker 1: So I had to explain, like, this is what communion is.

1230
01:04:47,965 --> 01:04:49,765
Speaker 1: And this is what we say. And this is why

1231
01:04:49,805 --> 01:04:53,625
Speaker 1: we say it in this specific way. He did a

1232
01:04:53,645 --> 01:04:57,465
Speaker 1: great job of it, too. Anyway, so the bread symbolizes

1233
01:04:57,505 --> 01:05:01,135
Speaker 1: his body. And before Jesus was crucified, they whipped him

1234
01:05:01,135 --> 01:05:05,695
Speaker 1: 39 times. And the Bible says, by his stripes were healed.

1235
01:05:06,375 --> 01:05:10,815
Speaker 1: So I believe that there's healing power from Jesus that

1236
01:05:10,835 --> 01:05:14,235
Speaker 1: can happen through communion. I don't think it's like now

1237
01:05:14,255 --> 01:05:16,145
Speaker 1: in the Catholic Church, coming back to them and what

1238
01:05:16,185 --> 01:05:19,845
Speaker 1: they call the Eucharist. They believe that the bread literally

1239
01:05:19,905 --> 01:05:22,905
Speaker 1: becomes the flesh of Christ and the juice or wine

1240
01:05:23,005 --> 01:05:25,685
Speaker 1: literally becomes the blood of Christ. I don't believe that.

1241
01:05:26,345 --> 01:05:29,975
Speaker 1: Most Protestants don't believe that. But we believe they're very

1242
01:05:30,035 --> 01:05:33,815
Speaker 1: important symbols. And Paul kind of emphasizes it coming back

1243
01:05:33,835 --> 01:05:36,375
Speaker 1: to him, let a man examine himself. He says, don't

1244
01:05:36,415 --> 01:05:40,175
Speaker 1: take of these elements in an unworthy manner. So don't

1245
01:05:40,215 --> 01:05:43,695
Speaker 1: do it in a flippant way or just it's a ritual. Now,

1246
01:05:43,735 --> 01:05:47,745
Speaker 1: this symbolizes the body of Jesus. This symbolizes the blood

1247
01:05:47,785 --> 01:05:51,605
Speaker 1: of Jesus. So take this seriously. And this is for

1248
01:05:51,665 --> 01:05:54,965
Speaker 1: a believer in Jesus Christ. And then you receive these

1249
01:05:55,045 --> 01:05:58,165
Speaker 1: elements in the cup, you know, the juice of the

1250
01:05:58,205 --> 01:06:01,865
Speaker 1: wine symbolizes his blood that was shed for us. And

1251
01:06:01,965 --> 01:06:06,065
Speaker 1: so when we receive communion, we'll pray and I'll say, Lord,

1252
01:06:06,105 --> 01:06:08,485
Speaker 1: thank you for shedding your blood for us. Because the

1253
01:06:08,545 --> 01:06:11,495
Speaker 1: Bible promises that we walk in the light as he

1254
01:06:11,555 --> 01:06:13,625
Speaker 1: is in the light. We have fellowship one with another

1255
01:06:13,695 --> 01:06:16,875
Speaker 1: and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

1256
01:06:16,895 --> 01:06:18,775
Speaker 1: So Lord, just cleanse us of our sin and we

1257
01:06:18,815 --> 01:06:22,825
Speaker 1: drink together. So it's a really beautiful thing that the

1258
01:06:22,865 --> 01:06:25,585
Speaker 1: church does. And Jesus said, do this in remembrance of

1259
01:06:25,645 --> 01:06:29,355
Speaker 1: me until he comes. So when we're in heaven, we

1260
01:06:29,395 --> 01:06:31,715
Speaker 1: don't need to do it anymore. But there's an interesting

1261
01:06:31,755 --> 01:06:34,995
Speaker 1: little thing in the Greek where it could better be translated,

1262
01:06:35,075 --> 01:06:38,895
Speaker 1: do this in affection, remembrance of me. And so there's

1263
01:06:38,935 --> 01:06:42,135
Speaker 1: an affection, there's an intimacy and a closeness to Jesus.

1264
01:06:42,235 --> 01:06:47,885
Speaker 1: It's not a cold religious ritual. It's a warm connection

1265
01:06:48,725 --> 01:06:52,125
Speaker 1: of love. love that we're expressing to God, and we're

1266
01:06:52,165 --> 01:06:55,835
Speaker 1: remembering the sacrifice that Jesus made. Because if it wasn't

1267
01:06:55,875 --> 01:06:58,355
Speaker 1: for that sacrifice, we would have no access to God.

1268
01:06:58,695 --> 01:07:01,455
Speaker 1: We'd still be back in the Old Testament with sacrifices,

1269
01:07:01,495 --> 01:07:02,075
Speaker 1: with animals.

1270
01:07:03,395 --> 01:07:05,205
Speaker 2: Tell me about preparing a sermon.

1271
01:07:06,445 --> 01:07:09,665
Speaker 1: It's a lot of things at once. I heard about

1272
01:07:09,765 --> 01:07:13,385
Speaker 1: one preacher. He said, I study myself full, I pray

1273
01:07:13,425 --> 01:07:16,975
Speaker 1: myself hot, and I let myself go. First you study.

1274
01:07:17,765 --> 01:07:21,285
Speaker 1: For me, a sermon is based on a text. So

1275
01:07:21,325 --> 01:07:23,945
Speaker 1: I'll read a text and I'll try to figure out

1276
01:07:24,025 --> 01:07:25,865
Speaker 1: what is this text saying? What is Jesus saying?

1277
01:07:25,905 --> 01:07:26,625
Speaker 2: Always from the Bible.

1278
01:07:26,825 --> 01:07:30,285
Speaker 1: Always and only. I pull from all kinds of sources.

1279
01:07:30,665 --> 01:07:33,195
Speaker 1: I quote all kinds of people and thinkers and philosophers.

1280
01:07:33,495 --> 01:07:36,615
Speaker 1: different things that illustrate it, but... Starts with the Bible.

1281
01:07:36,675 --> 01:07:39,245
Speaker 1: Starts with the Bible and, I'd say, ends with the Bible.

1282
01:07:39,265 --> 01:07:42,685
Speaker 1: But like, take John 15. What's an example? So John 15,

1283
01:07:42,685 --> 01:07:46,165
Speaker 1: Jesus speaks about a woman who lost a coin and

1284
01:07:46,205 --> 01:07:48,445
Speaker 1: searched for it until she found it, a shepherd who

1285
01:07:48,485 --> 01:07:51,395
Speaker 1: lost his sheep and searches for it until he finds it,

1286
01:07:51,685 --> 01:07:54,175
Speaker 1: and a father who had two sons and one went

1287
01:07:54,235 --> 01:07:56,835
Speaker 1: astray and the father welcomed him home. So the theme

1288
01:07:56,915 --> 01:08:00,415
Speaker 1: is lost things found, right? So you figure out the theme.

1289
01:08:00,435 --> 01:08:02,375
Speaker 1: Then you figure out, okay, who was he speaking to?

1290
01:08:02,395 --> 01:08:05,305
Speaker 1: He's speaking to the audience of his day, and he's

1291
01:08:05,385 --> 01:08:08,955
Speaker 1: kind of directing this toward the religious leaders. Because in

1292
01:08:08,995 --> 01:08:11,895
Speaker 1: the story of the prodigal son, there's another son people

1293
01:08:11,955 --> 01:08:15,455
Speaker 1: forget about. The son goes astray and drags the family

1294
01:08:15,495 --> 01:08:18,495
Speaker 1: name to the mud and messes up and says, Father,

1295
01:08:18,595 --> 01:08:20,995
Speaker 1: I've sent him, returns home. But there's this older brother

1296
01:08:21,634 --> 01:08:24,715
Speaker 1: who's ticked off at his younger brother because he's gone

1297
01:08:24,775 --> 01:08:28,054
Speaker 1: out there and disgraced their family. And he goes, man,

1298
01:08:28,075 --> 01:08:30,035
Speaker 1: you know, you never threw a party for me. You

1299
01:08:30,075 --> 01:08:33,695
Speaker 1: never slew the animal for me. And the dad says, son,

1300
01:08:33,735 --> 01:08:36,455
Speaker 1: you've always been with me. So Jesus was speaking to

1301
01:08:36,474 --> 01:08:39,334
Speaker 1: the religious leaders. They're like the older brother. They're resentful.

1302
01:08:39,655 --> 01:08:42,995
Speaker 1: because Jesus was hanging around sinners. That was the backdrop

1303
01:08:43,035 --> 01:08:45,514
Speaker 1: of this. Why are you hanging around these people, this

1304
01:08:45,674 --> 01:08:50,325
Speaker 1: tax collector and this prostitute and these other people? Yeah, outcasts.

1305
01:08:50,365 --> 01:08:52,285
Speaker 1: You can't do that. He goes, let me tell you

1306
01:08:52,304 --> 01:08:55,285
Speaker 1: a story. So in the story, he's really directing it

1307
01:08:55,325 --> 01:08:57,825
Speaker 1: toward them. You guys are like the older brother. You

1308
01:08:57,875 --> 01:09:01,155
Speaker 1: should be happy when this prodigal son comes home again.

1309
01:09:01,275 --> 01:09:05,354
Speaker 1: So you figure out all those things, any interesting things

1310
01:09:05,415 --> 01:09:08,785
Speaker 1: in culture, in the language, as an example, in that culture,

1311
01:09:09,174 --> 01:09:12,204
Speaker 1: it was considered undignified for an older man to run.

1312
01:09:12,505 --> 01:09:15,865
Speaker 1: Older men did not run in general. So I'll jokingly say,

1313
01:09:16,285 --> 01:09:18,185
Speaker 1: not to mention the fact that it's harder for an

1314
01:09:18,264 --> 01:09:21,294
Speaker 1: older man to run, I can say from experience. But

1315
01:09:21,335 --> 01:09:23,755
Speaker 1: the father sort of like is willing to lose his

1316
01:09:23,854 --> 01:09:27,294
Speaker 1: dignity to get to a son as quickly as possible.

1317
01:09:27,854 --> 01:09:31,454
Speaker 1: And God, this is a picture Jesus gave us of God,

1318
01:09:31,755 --> 01:09:34,205
Speaker 1: how much he loves us and the lengths he's willing

1319
01:09:34,245 --> 01:09:36,965
Speaker 1: to go to to reach us. And so we get

1320
01:09:36,985 --> 01:09:40,305
Speaker 1: all those little cultural things, language things. Now bring it

1321
01:09:40,365 --> 01:09:43,144
Speaker 1: into the present day. Now, it depends who I'm sharing

1322
01:09:43,184 --> 01:09:46,845
Speaker 1: this with. If it's with an audience of nonbelievers, I

1323
01:09:46,884 --> 01:09:51,265
Speaker 1: might quote. Various people in the culture today talking about

1324
01:09:51,304 --> 01:09:54,585
Speaker 1: the emptiness of life. There's a Jim Carrey quote I've

1325
01:09:54,604 --> 01:09:58,485
Speaker 1: used before. I wish everyone could get all the things

1326
01:09:58,505 --> 01:10:00,884
Speaker 1: they ever wanted in life and realize that's not what

1327
01:10:00,924 --> 01:10:03,655
Speaker 1: it's all about. That's a very loose reference. Sometimes I'll

1328
01:10:03,695 --> 01:10:07,075
Speaker 1: even begin my message with quotes from people they know.

1329
01:10:07,375 --> 01:10:09,275
Speaker 1: And I won't even quote the Bible at first. Or

1330
01:10:09,295 --> 01:10:11,554
Speaker 1: I might start with my own story. Because I want

1331
01:10:11,594 --> 01:10:14,155
Speaker 1: people to understand I'm just a person like you. I'm

1332
01:10:14,174 --> 01:10:17,224
Speaker 1: not better than you. But here's what God says, and

1333
01:10:17,245 --> 01:10:19,544
Speaker 1: I want you to hear this. That's if it's an

1334
01:10:19,585 --> 01:10:22,705
Speaker 1: evangelistic message. And then I'll get to my text, then

1335
01:10:22,745 --> 01:10:25,104
Speaker 1: I'll explain it, and then I'll apply it and say

1336
01:10:25,144 --> 01:10:28,074
Speaker 1: something like, you can come into a relationship with God.

1337
01:10:28,144 --> 01:10:30,595
Speaker 1: Maybe you feel like, oh, God would never accept me.

1338
01:10:31,235 --> 01:10:33,615
Speaker 1: I've done too many horrible things. Well, the father accepted

1339
01:10:33,674 --> 01:10:36,275
Speaker 1: the son, and notice he didn't make the son clean

1340
01:10:36,314 --> 01:10:39,264
Speaker 1: himself up first. The Son came as He was.

1341
01:10:39,275 --> 01:10:40,354
Speaker 2: Accepted Him as He was.

1342
01:10:40,495 --> 01:10:43,014
Speaker 1: As He was. And so I might say something like,

1343
01:10:43,214 --> 01:10:45,554
Speaker 1: Jesus said, He that would come to me, I would

1344
01:10:45,594 --> 01:10:47,964
Speaker 1: in no way cast out. So you just come as

1345
01:10:48,005 --> 01:10:50,304
Speaker 1: you are to God. You come with your sins. You

1346
01:10:50,325 --> 01:10:53,144
Speaker 1: come with your questions. You come with your addictions. You

1347
01:10:53,165 --> 01:10:55,285
Speaker 1: come to Him not unlike what I did. I mean,

1348
01:10:55,325 --> 01:10:58,545
Speaker 1: I came as a drug user, effectively. Oh, I didn't

1349
01:10:58,564 --> 01:11:00,585
Speaker 1: have to clean my life up and come to God.

1350
01:11:00,625 --> 01:11:04,124
Speaker 1: You come to God. He'll clean your life up. And so...

1351
01:11:04,795 --> 01:11:08,125
Speaker 1: in the context of an evangelistic message, then I would say,

1352
01:11:08,224 --> 01:11:10,525
Speaker 1: and you can come to Christ right now. And I

1353
01:11:10,585 --> 01:11:12,144
Speaker 1: tell them how to do it, and I invite them

1354
01:11:12,214 --> 01:11:14,945
Speaker 1: to walk forward if it's in the stadium, and I

1355
01:11:15,005 --> 01:11:17,184
Speaker 1: lead him in a prayer. Now, if I was teaching

1356
01:11:17,224 --> 01:11:19,004
Speaker 1: that at our church, I might do that as well,

1357
01:11:19,025 --> 01:11:21,765
Speaker 1: but I might say, and we need to remember that

1358
01:11:21,804 --> 01:11:24,144
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people like this prodigal son out there,

1359
01:11:24,505 --> 01:11:26,245
Speaker 1: and we need to reach them. Or maybe you have

1360
01:11:26,285 --> 01:11:29,485
Speaker 1: a prodigal son or a prodigal daughter. I had two

1361
01:11:29,545 --> 01:11:32,645
Speaker 1: prodigal sons. I, like the man in the story, am

1362
01:11:32,684 --> 01:11:34,625
Speaker 1: a father of two sons. Let me tell you about

1363
01:11:34,964 --> 01:11:38,025
Speaker 1: my sons. And my son Jonathan preached on it A

1364
01:11:38,064 --> 01:11:40,445
Speaker 1: few weeks ago, and I said, you should teach on

1365
01:11:40,464 --> 01:11:41,475
Speaker 1: this because you've lived it.

1366
01:11:41,735 --> 01:11:41,934
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1367
01:11:42,174 --> 01:11:44,735
Speaker 1: And he brought it home in a really personal way. So,

1368
01:11:45,235 --> 01:11:47,865
Speaker 1: you know, that's just an example of one text that Now,

1369
01:11:47,884 --> 01:11:50,495
Speaker 1: if I'm teaching an epistle, one of the letters of Paul,

1370
01:11:50,535 --> 01:11:53,714
Speaker 1: that's different because it's not a story like that. It's

1371
01:11:53,755 --> 01:11:57,174
Speaker 1: more like he's addressing certain topics. And then if it's

1372
01:11:57,214 --> 01:12:01,155
Speaker 1: an Old Testament narrative, that's another kind of sweeping story,

1373
01:12:01,655 --> 01:12:04,295
Speaker 1: you know, like David and Goliath. And so we'll tell

1374
01:12:04,335 --> 01:12:07,745
Speaker 1: the story, but then I would bring applications to dealing

1375
01:12:07,785 --> 01:12:10,664
Speaker 1: with challenges that we all face, the giants in your life,

1376
01:12:10,705 --> 01:12:13,125
Speaker 1: so to speak. So it kind of just depends on

1377
01:12:13,224 --> 01:12:15,545
Speaker 1: what the text is. But I'm always, right now I'm

1378
01:12:15,604 --> 01:12:18,535
Speaker 1: teaching through the Gospel of Luke. We call it the

1379
01:12:18,575 --> 01:12:21,415
Speaker 1: gospel for everyone. I'm just teaching through these things that

1380
01:12:21,474 --> 01:12:24,854
Speaker 1: Jesus said and did and show how they apply to

1381
01:12:24,894 --> 01:12:25,535
Speaker 1: our life today.

1382
01:12:26,955 --> 01:12:30,935
Speaker 2: In the Old Testament, God seems judgmental. And in the

1383
01:12:30,974 --> 01:12:33,284
Speaker 2: New Testament, not so much. What changed?

1384
01:12:33,295 --> 01:12:35,804
Speaker 1: I don't think anything changed. I think he's the same

1385
01:12:35,844 --> 01:12:39,464
Speaker 1: God in the Old and New Testament. As an example,

1386
01:12:39,644 --> 01:12:43,104
Speaker 1: God called Jonah to go preach to the Ninevites. The Ninevites,

1387
01:12:44,005 --> 01:12:47,785
Speaker 1: they're really wicked people. They were known for their atrocities.

1388
01:12:48,525 --> 01:12:52,045
Speaker 1: They wouldn't just kill their enemies. They would skin them alive.

1389
01:12:52,104 --> 01:12:55,584
Speaker 1: They would stack skulls as tributes to what they had done,

1390
01:12:55,644 --> 01:12:58,284
Speaker 1: really evil people. So God comes to Jonah the prophet

1391
01:12:58,304 --> 01:13:02,044
Speaker 1: and says, go preach to Nineveh. Jonah's like, no way.

1392
01:13:02,604 --> 01:13:04,965
Speaker 1: And he gets in a boat going in the opposite direction.

1393
01:13:05,775 --> 01:13:06,794
Speaker 1: He disobeys God.

1394
01:13:06,934 --> 01:13:07,174
Speaker 4: Why?

1395
01:13:07,674 --> 01:13:11,825
Speaker 1: Because Jonah himself says, I know you're gracious and willing

1396
01:13:11,884 --> 01:13:13,785
Speaker 1: to forgive, and I don't want to go to them.

1397
01:13:13,964 --> 01:13:16,064
Speaker 1: Because his thinking was, if I go and preach to

1398
01:13:16,125 --> 01:13:19,504
Speaker 1: these people, God will forgive them. And I don't want

1399
01:13:19,564 --> 01:13:21,845
Speaker 1: him to forgive them. I want him to destroy them.

1400
01:13:22,674 --> 01:13:25,474
Speaker 1: A great storm comes. He's swallowed by a great fish.

1401
01:13:25,974 --> 01:13:28,035
Speaker 1: Everyone makes a big deal about Jonah and the whale.

1402
01:13:28,054 --> 01:13:30,554
Speaker 1: The Bible never says whale. It says a sea monster.

1403
01:13:31,835 --> 01:13:34,254
Speaker 1: We don't know what swallowed him. Some creature swallowed him.

1404
01:13:34,905 --> 01:13:38,004
Speaker 1: He repents and God brings them right back to Nineveh

1405
01:13:38,104 --> 01:13:41,415
Speaker 1: and he preaches to them. And sure enough, when he

1406
01:13:41,474 --> 01:13:43,835
Speaker 1: tells them 40 days and you'll be overthrown, they all

1407
01:13:43,875 --> 01:13:48,115
Speaker 1: repent and God doesn't judge them. So yes, God judges

1408
01:13:48,155 --> 01:13:51,674
Speaker 1: people in the Old Testament, but he forgives them as well.

1409
01:13:52,214 --> 01:13:54,674
Speaker 1: And God doesn't want to judge people. He says, I

1410
01:13:54,795 --> 01:13:58,165
Speaker 1: take no delight in the death of the wicked. I mean,

1411
01:13:58,205 --> 01:14:01,545
Speaker 1: take hell as an example. I did a teaching last

1412
01:14:01,875 --> 01:14:05,635
Speaker 1: time I spoke on what Jesus taught about hell. I

1413
01:14:05,674 --> 01:14:09,795
Speaker 1: called it, What Happens One Minute After You Die? And

1414
01:14:09,854 --> 01:14:12,675
Speaker 1: I tried to explain to people the fact that the

1415
01:14:12,795 --> 01:14:15,044
Speaker 1: last thing God wants is for anyone to go to hell.

1416
01:14:15,304 --> 01:14:18,804
Speaker 1: I do believe hell is real because Jesus talked about

1417
01:14:18,844 --> 01:14:20,785
Speaker 1: it more than all the other preachers in the Bible

1418
01:14:20,825 --> 01:14:25,134
Speaker 1: put together. But God doesn't want people to go there.

1419
01:14:25,195 --> 01:14:28,584
Speaker 1: It wasn't prepared for people. Jesus said it was made

1420
01:14:28,625 --> 01:14:31,144
Speaker 1: for the devil and his angels. God wants us to

1421
01:14:31,205 --> 01:14:34,805
Speaker 1: join him in heaven. That is why he sent Jesus.

1422
01:14:34,875 --> 01:14:41,965
Speaker 1: But as C.S. Lewis said, In other words, Say there's

1423
01:14:42,005 --> 01:14:43,875
Speaker 1: a building on fire and I'm standing in front of

1424
01:14:43,884 --> 01:14:46,215
Speaker 1: the building and people are walking in. No, don't go

1425
01:14:46,255 --> 01:14:48,894
Speaker 1: in this building. Don't go in this building. You'll die.

1426
01:14:49,375 --> 01:14:51,795
Speaker 1: Go over here. We have a banquet, a feast prepared

1427
01:14:51,835 --> 01:14:54,265
Speaker 1: for you. Come on over here. No, everybody's in line

1428
01:14:54,285 --> 01:14:55,985
Speaker 1: for the building. We're going there. We're going to party

1429
01:14:56,025 --> 01:14:59,644
Speaker 1: in hell with our friends. No, you aren't. It's judgment.

1430
01:14:59,684 --> 01:15:02,604
Speaker 1: You don't want to do that. If I'm stopping people

1431
01:15:02,665 --> 01:15:05,825
Speaker 1: even standing in their way and they push me aside, well,

1432
01:15:06,125 --> 01:15:08,725
Speaker 1: I did what I could. You have to climb over

1433
01:15:08,804 --> 01:15:11,805
Speaker 1: Jesus to get there. He doesn't want you to go there,

1434
01:15:11,844 --> 01:15:14,945
Speaker 1: but you have a choice in life. If you don't

1435
01:15:15,025 --> 01:15:18,644
Speaker 1: want God in this life, I don't want God. Well,

1436
01:15:18,764 --> 01:15:20,915
Speaker 1: then you don't have to have him in the afterlife

1437
01:15:21,005 --> 01:15:24,675
Speaker 1: either because hell is separation from God. So I think

1438
01:15:24,854 --> 01:15:29,134
Speaker 1: the nature of God is different. to forgive and to

1439
01:15:29,214 --> 01:15:31,925
Speaker 1: pardon and give second chances. I think you see that

1440
01:15:32,005 --> 01:15:33,445
Speaker 1: in the Old and New Testament.

1441
01:15:34,304 --> 01:15:36,125
Speaker 2: Tell me about the role of music in Christianity.

1442
01:15:36,144 --> 01:15:39,564
Speaker 1: Well, I believe, of course, God gave us music, okay?

1443
01:15:39,625 --> 01:15:46,165
Speaker 1: So really, the Psalms are prayers set to song. There

1444
01:15:46,184 --> 01:15:50,684
Speaker 1: were melodies, and David was a musician. David played a

1445
01:15:50,714 --> 01:15:53,955
Speaker 1: stringed instrument and sang to the Lord. In fact, there

1446
01:15:53,974 --> 01:15:56,995
Speaker 1: was power there. And what he did because King Saul

1447
01:15:57,014 --> 01:15:59,995
Speaker 1: was being tormented by demons because he had rebelled against

1448
01:16:00,075 --> 01:16:02,794
Speaker 1: God and kind of like going into mental decline. And

1449
01:16:02,835 --> 01:16:05,275
Speaker 1: these demons would torment him and they would bring David

1450
01:16:05,354 --> 01:16:07,934
Speaker 1: in who would sing and there would be temporary relief.

1451
01:16:07,955 --> 01:16:11,244
Speaker 1: So I think there's actually spiritual power in music. And

1452
01:16:11,255 --> 01:16:14,564
Speaker 1: I've seen it and I love music. And before I

1453
01:16:14,604 --> 01:16:19,845
Speaker 1: became a Christian, I love the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, The Doors, Hendrix,

1454
01:16:20,625 --> 01:16:24,865
Speaker 1: Buffalo Springfield, etc., So I become a Christian. I'm like, well,

1455
01:16:24,945 --> 01:16:26,985
Speaker 1: that's the end of that. Now I've just listened to

1456
01:16:27,045 --> 01:16:31,934
Speaker 1: hymns and weird Christian songs. And so there was this

1457
01:16:31,995 --> 01:16:35,955
Speaker 1: guy named Larry Norman who had a record and I

1458
01:16:36,075 --> 01:16:39,205
Speaker 1: came across it and it was Capitol Records. I thought, well,

1459
01:16:39,214 --> 01:16:41,825
Speaker 1: it's a Beatles label, isn't it? And He was a

1460
01:16:41,985 --> 01:16:45,145
Speaker 1: really creative guy, and it was kind of like the

1461
01:16:45,224 --> 01:16:49,054
Speaker 1: first Christian's album. So, you know, he's a really talented writer,

1462
01:16:49,535 --> 01:16:51,594
Speaker 1: and I loved his music. I thought, wow, there's actually

1463
01:16:51,634 --> 01:16:53,854
Speaker 1: some good Christian music here. I'm kind of surprised, because

1464
01:16:53,875 --> 01:16:55,695
Speaker 1: a lot of the rest of it wasn't that great.

1465
01:16:55,735 --> 01:16:59,134
Speaker 1: So coming back to Calvary Chapel, when the spiritual awakening

1466
01:16:59,214 --> 01:17:02,745
Speaker 1: is happening, all these musicians are coming to faith, and

1467
01:17:02,785 --> 01:17:06,555
Speaker 1: they're writing music. And one of the groups, and this

1468
01:17:06,655 --> 01:17:09,135
Speaker 1: is in the Jesus Revolution film, was called Love Song.

1469
01:17:09,695 --> 01:17:12,595
Speaker 1: Chuck Gerard, the lead singer, he was in a band

1470
01:17:12,615 --> 01:17:14,785
Speaker 1: called the Hondells, not a big band, but he had

1471
01:17:14,795 --> 01:17:17,905
Speaker 1: a Beach Boy kind of sound and had an amazing voice.

1472
01:17:18,644 --> 01:17:20,525
Speaker 1: And then these other guys, it was kind of like

1473
01:17:20,545 --> 01:17:24,615
Speaker 1: the Beatles meet the Beach Boys with gospel in it.

1474
01:17:24,924 --> 01:17:27,654
Speaker 1: And so they came out one night and started singing.

1475
01:17:27,674 --> 01:17:29,575
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, this is amazing. So I kind

1476
01:17:29,634 --> 01:17:32,995
Speaker 1: of watched the birth of what we call contemporary Christian music.

1477
01:17:33,865 --> 01:17:37,305
Speaker 1: It just started out as guys and girls coming to

1478
01:17:37,344 --> 01:17:39,785
Speaker 1: the Lord who wanted to express their faith. In fact,

1479
01:17:40,705 --> 01:17:44,054
Speaker 1: the big difference between the first wave of Christian music

1480
01:17:44,174 --> 01:17:48,795
Speaker 1: and the waves today would be the first wave was

1481
01:17:48,835 --> 01:17:52,195
Speaker 1: kind of more organic, and it was more almost telling

1482
01:17:52,295 --> 01:17:56,505
Speaker 1: people about what we believed. Like there was one song,

1483
01:17:56,545 --> 01:17:59,465
Speaker 1: my love song, the lyrics were, we're all gathered here

1484
01:17:59,644 --> 01:18:02,365
Speaker 1: because we all believe. If there's a doubter in the crowd,

1485
01:18:02,564 --> 01:18:05,004
Speaker 1: we ask you not to leave. Give a listen to

1486
01:18:05,064 --> 01:18:08,304
Speaker 1: our story. Hear the message that we bring. Let the

1487
01:18:08,384 --> 01:18:11,525
Speaker 1: faith swell up inside you. Lift your voice with us

1488
01:18:11,665 --> 01:18:15,215
Speaker 1: and sing. Accept them with your whole heart and use

1489
01:18:15,224 --> 01:18:18,054
Speaker 1: your own two hands. With one, reach out to Jesus.

1490
01:18:18,275 --> 01:18:21,115
Speaker 1: With the other, bring a friend. So I love that

1491
01:18:21,155 --> 01:18:24,755
Speaker 1: it was directed toward the culture. And the original idea

1492
01:18:24,795 --> 01:18:27,924
Speaker 1: was let's go to the culture and talk about what's

1493
01:18:27,945 --> 01:18:31,165
Speaker 1: happened to us. But then in time, it became an industry.

1494
01:18:32,144 --> 01:18:35,044
Speaker 1: And now today, I work with a lot of these artists.

1495
01:18:35,304 --> 01:18:36,905
Speaker 1: I like them. I think they're great. A lot of

1496
01:18:36,924 --> 01:18:39,344
Speaker 1: them are friends of mine. And it's fine. I don't

1497
01:18:39,384 --> 01:18:42,045
Speaker 1: have a problem with it being an industry. But I'm

1498
01:18:42,085 --> 01:18:46,575
Speaker 1: just saying in its original intent, it was organic and

1499
01:18:46,594 --> 01:18:49,875
Speaker 1: it was more oriented toward the culture. And I would

1500
01:18:49,894 --> 01:18:53,275
Speaker 1: like to see some more artists write songs of that nature.

1501
01:18:53,785 --> 01:18:55,905
Speaker 1: I've told a lot of them that. They wanted to

1502
01:18:55,924 --> 01:18:58,245
Speaker 1: write songs like kind of to the non-believer a little bit,

1503
01:18:58,304 --> 01:18:59,604
Speaker 1: not always just to the Christian.

1504
01:18:59,644 --> 01:19:00,625
Speaker 2: Can we listen to that song?

1505
01:19:00,825 --> 01:19:02,365
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's called Two Hands.

1506
01:19:02,384 --> 01:19:22,934
Speaker 3: Two Hands We're all gathered here Because we all.

1507
01:19:22,354 --> 01:19:33,144
Speaker 4: Believe If there's a doubter in the crowd We ask

1508
01:19:33,205 --> 01:19:35,264
Speaker 4: you not to.

1509
01:19:35,085 --> 01:19:43,775
Speaker 5: Leave Give a listen to the story.

1510
01:19:46,785 --> 01:19:54,044
Speaker 4: Hear the message that he brings. Feel the faith swell

1511
01:19:54,165 --> 01:20:00,115
Speaker 4: up around you. Lift your voice.

1512
01:19:59,674 --> 01:20:04,314
Speaker 5: With us and sing.

1513
01:20:05,115 --> 01:20:08,434
Speaker 4: Accept him with your whole heart.

1514
01:20:09,354 --> 01:20:11,285
Speaker 2: And use your own to that.

1515
01:20:15,905 --> 01:20:22,235
Speaker 3: With one reach out to Jesus, and with.

1516
01:20:22,094 --> 01:20:28,434
Speaker 5: The other bring a friend.

1517
01:20:28,495 --> 01:20:34,604
Speaker 4: Many know Him well, others just by name.

1518
01:20:46,634 --> 01:20:49,314
Speaker 5: If you don't know.

1519
01:20:48,955 --> 01:20:56,545
Speaker 3: For what he stands You've really much to gain.

1520
01:20:55,705 --> 01:20:59,285
Speaker 5: With faith you can move mountains These are.

1521
01:20:59,285 --> 01:21:03,264
Speaker 4: Common words but true We aren't quite a mountain.

1522
01:21:17,235 --> 01:21:20,615
Speaker 5: But he's moved us.

1523
01:21:19,974 --> 01:21:25,424
Speaker 3: Here to you.

1524
01:21:24,505 --> 01:21:32,785
Speaker 5: Accept him with your whole heart And use.

1525
01:21:32,365 --> 01:21:35,894
Speaker 2: Your own two hands With one.

1526
01:21:35,884 --> 01:21:39,935
Speaker 5: Reach out to Jesus.

1527
01:21:41,054 --> 01:21:41,674
Speaker 3: And with the.

1528
01:21:41,695 --> 01:21:58,115
Speaker 5: Other, bring a friend. And with the other.

1529
01:21:58,195 --> 01:22:00,394
Speaker 1: Chuck had the really high voice, kind of a little

1530
01:22:00,434 --> 01:22:05,344
Speaker 1: Brian Wilson, you know. But, of course, that brings back

1531
01:22:05,405 --> 01:22:09,995
Speaker 1: memories to me, you know, so I can't. remove myself

1532
01:22:10,035 --> 01:22:14,994
Speaker 1: from that, but that was typical of, of what it was.

1533
01:22:15,335 --> 01:22:18,115
Speaker 1: And I think it would, I mean, what I love

1534
01:22:18,174 --> 01:22:20,434
Speaker 1: about what you do is you strip stuff away and

1535
01:22:20,474 --> 01:22:22,594
Speaker 1: get to the essence of it. So the artist can

1536
01:22:22,665 --> 01:22:25,865
Speaker 1: come out or the song can come out punctuating the

1537
01:22:25,905 --> 01:22:31,305
Speaker 1: elements of the song. And I feel like this industry

1538
01:22:31,424 --> 01:22:34,625
Speaker 1: is very slick and polished and a lot of it's great.

1539
01:22:35,235 --> 01:22:37,594
Speaker 1: But I would like to see a return to that

1540
01:22:37,665 --> 01:22:40,385
Speaker 1: sort of thing. You could make the argument also that

1541
01:22:40,485 --> 01:22:44,485
Speaker 1: the church started as a grassroots thing and has also

1542
01:22:44,564 --> 01:22:47,085
Speaker 1: turned into a big industry. Yep, it can do that.

1543
01:22:47,304 --> 01:22:50,285
Speaker 1: And it's kind of like, that's why we just kind of,

1544
01:22:50,304 --> 01:22:53,655
Speaker 1: we start and we start over again and again and again.

1545
01:22:54,075 --> 01:22:58,515
Speaker 1: And even churches have like lifespans. The church doesn't have

1546
01:22:58,554 --> 01:23:01,674
Speaker 1: a lifespan, but churches do. Like there might be a

1547
01:23:01,735 --> 01:23:06,974
Speaker 1: church that was once really poor. impactful and packed out.

1548
01:23:07,094 --> 01:23:11,014
Speaker 1: And then one day it's a big empty auditorium. But

1549
01:23:11,054 --> 01:23:12,945
Speaker 1: then you hear of a new thing that just started

1550
01:23:13,045 --> 01:23:17,205
Speaker 1: up down the street and some abandoned supermarket that they've

1551
01:23:17,245 --> 01:23:20,544
Speaker 1: converted into a church or a movie theater. So there's

1552
01:23:20,604 --> 01:23:25,054
Speaker 1: always new expressions of it. And it's just, it's life. Honestly,

1553
01:23:25,934 --> 01:23:29,175
Speaker 1: We mess things up. God doesn't. The human factor. Yeah,

1554
01:23:29,195 --> 01:23:33,495
Speaker 1: the human factor. But it keeps marching on. And Jesus

1555
01:23:33,535 --> 01:23:36,155
Speaker 1: said that the gates of hell will not prevail against us.

1556
01:23:36,214 --> 01:23:38,915
Speaker 1: So I'm a big believer in the church and the

1557
01:23:38,974 --> 01:23:42,135
Speaker 1: local church and the importance of it because I've always

1558
01:23:42,514 --> 01:23:45,594
Speaker 1: remained as a pastor. So I'm involved in people's lives

1559
01:23:45,714 --> 01:23:48,695
Speaker 1: and what they're facing and dealing with. And I think

1560
01:23:49,434 --> 01:23:52,335
Speaker 1: you can just get into an industry of it and

1561
01:23:52,375 --> 01:23:55,424
Speaker 1: be disconnected from people. And I feel the best thing

1562
01:23:56,684 --> 01:23:59,684
Speaker 1: is to be part of a church. And we even

1563
01:23:59,724 --> 01:24:02,045
Speaker 1: encourage what we call small groups, where we get people

1564
01:24:02,104 --> 01:24:04,945
Speaker 1: into like eight or nine, maybe 10 people, and we'll

1565
01:24:04,985 --> 01:24:09,115
Speaker 1: study things together, but then friendships develop and then, you know,

1566
01:24:09,134 --> 01:24:12,434
Speaker 1: they become a little world in a world. And then,

1567
01:24:12,554 --> 01:24:14,014
Speaker 1: you know, all of a sudden you have a network

1568
01:24:14,075 --> 01:24:16,375
Speaker 1: of people to help you. Like as an example, we

1569
01:24:16,434 --> 01:24:19,064
Speaker 1: find people who are in small groups almost never come

1570
01:24:19,104 --> 01:24:22,325
Speaker 1: in for counseling. Because in the small group, they have

1571
01:24:22,365 --> 01:24:25,085
Speaker 1: that already. They have people to talk with, people to

1572
01:24:25,184 --> 01:24:28,584
Speaker 1: pray with, people to do life with, you know. And

1573
01:24:28,674 --> 01:24:33,115
Speaker 1: so we really encourage people to do that. And, you know,

1574
01:24:33,174 --> 01:24:36,294
Speaker 1: the church gets slammed a lot. It gets criticized a lot.

1575
01:24:36,894 --> 01:24:41,684
Speaker 1: And sometimes people critique maybe exaggerated versions of it, which

1576
01:24:41,705 --> 01:24:45,224
Speaker 1: you might see on television or elsewhere. But there's so

1577
01:24:45,264 --> 01:24:49,475
Speaker 1: many churches faithfully making their impact. In this very community,

1578
01:24:49,554 --> 01:24:51,935
Speaker 1: you have them, I'm sure. And maybe a lot of

1579
01:24:51,974 --> 01:24:54,695
Speaker 1: people have never heard of these pastors or these churches,

1580
01:24:55,115 --> 01:24:59,025
Speaker 1: but they're doing their work and marrying and bearing and

1581
01:24:59,285 --> 01:25:02,945
Speaker 1: counseling and putting families back together and doing the thing

1582
01:25:02,964 --> 01:25:05,985
Speaker 1: that the church does. So we get criticized a lot,

1583
01:25:06,304 --> 01:25:10,514
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's the only organization Jesus ever started.

1584
01:25:11,394 --> 01:25:13,995
Speaker 2: How has Christianity stayed the same, and how has it

1585
01:25:14,094 --> 01:25:15,894
Speaker 2: changed since Jesus' time?

1586
01:25:17,915 --> 01:25:20,175
Speaker 1: I think it comes down to how close we want

1587
01:25:20,195 --> 01:25:22,545
Speaker 1: to stay to Him and close we want to be

1588
01:25:22,585 --> 01:25:26,444
Speaker 1: to His message. I think if we adhere to Scripture—

1589
01:25:27,535 --> 01:25:30,915
Speaker 1: We're good. And I don't believe that what I do

1590
01:25:30,995 --> 01:25:34,335
Speaker 1: today is remarkably different than what I did when I started.

1591
01:25:34,594 --> 01:25:39,604
Speaker 1: I'm older. I hopefully am a little wiser. But I've

1592
01:25:39,684 --> 01:25:44,245
Speaker 1: tried to adapt to changes in our culture without changing

1593
01:25:44,445 --> 01:25:49,224
Speaker 1: my essential message. We didn't have social media 30 years ago.

1594
01:25:49,285 --> 01:25:50,945
Speaker 1: We didn't have a lot of things we have now.

1595
01:25:51,405 --> 01:25:54,085
Speaker 1: But the essential needs of people don't change and the

1596
01:25:54,144 --> 01:25:57,445
Speaker 1: essential answer doesn't change us. So I think for those

1597
01:25:57,525 --> 01:26:02,255
Speaker 1: that stay close to what the Bible says, Jesus has

1598
01:26:02,295 --> 01:26:05,214
Speaker 1: gone to all the world and preached the gospel, making

1599
01:26:05,295 --> 01:26:09,695
Speaker 1: disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of

1600
01:26:09,714 --> 01:26:12,695
Speaker 1: the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe

1601
01:26:12,755 --> 01:26:15,814
Speaker 1: all things that I have commanded you, allowing with you

1602
01:26:15,974 --> 01:26:17,715
Speaker 1: even to the end of the age. That's called the

1603
01:26:17,755 --> 01:26:20,985
Speaker 1: Great Commission. I think as long as we are close

1604
01:26:21,025 --> 01:26:23,725
Speaker 1: to that, we're in good shape. I think sometimes we

1605
01:26:23,804 --> 01:26:27,225
Speaker 1: deviate from that. Oh, it's political. It's all about politics.

1606
01:26:27,665 --> 01:26:29,995
Speaker 1: Or it's all about this agenda. Or it's all about

1607
01:26:30,035 --> 01:26:33,935
Speaker 1: that agenda. That's what we might call Christianity or an

1608
01:26:34,014 --> 01:26:36,715
Speaker 1: expression of it or a lack of expression of it

1609
01:26:37,075 --> 01:26:39,155
Speaker 1: because it's really getting away from what it should be.

1610
01:26:39,505 --> 01:26:43,824
Speaker 1: Because to me, ultimately, Christianity is Christ. My message is

1611
01:26:43,865 --> 01:26:47,765
Speaker 1: not Christianity. My message is Jesus and how to come

1612
01:26:47,804 --> 01:26:49,845
Speaker 1: into a relationship with Him. Now, you can call what

1613
01:26:49,905 --> 01:26:54,144
Speaker 1: I do Christianity, and it is. And it is religion.

1614
01:26:54,745 --> 01:26:57,405
Speaker 1: Someone would describe me, oh, you're religious. Yeah, you can

1615
01:26:57,485 --> 01:27:00,585
Speaker 1: say that, and it's not inaccurate. But I don't really

1616
01:27:00,644 --> 01:27:04,884
Speaker 1: consider myself religious. I think it's always been about a

1617
01:27:04,945 --> 01:27:09,375
Speaker 1: relationship with God for me more than religion. So the

1618
01:27:09,415 --> 01:27:11,575
Speaker 1: closer we stay to Christ, the better off we are.

1619
01:27:12,094 --> 01:27:15,155
Speaker 1: The more we deviate from that, the worse we are.

1620
01:27:15,615 --> 01:27:19,505
Speaker 2: Tell me about the role of social media in Christianity today.

1621
01:27:20,405 --> 01:27:21,684
Speaker 1: Well, I think there are a lot of people who

1622
01:27:21,705 --> 01:27:24,005
Speaker 1: are being influenced by a lot of voices out there

1623
01:27:24,045 --> 01:27:27,134
Speaker 1: that maybe we'll talk about later. Issues of faith don't

1624
01:27:27,205 --> 01:27:30,424
Speaker 1: necessarily know what they're talking about. It seems like if

1625
01:27:30,464 --> 01:27:34,924
Speaker 1: you want to get more reaction, you pick more controversial subjects.

1626
01:27:35,224 --> 01:27:39,304
Speaker 1: In some cases, you just spread false information to get clicks.

1627
01:27:40,125 --> 01:27:43,624
Speaker 1: And I just like that a lot. I try to

1628
01:27:44,625 --> 01:27:48,405
Speaker 1: offer encouragement through my social media. I try to point

1629
01:27:48,445 --> 01:27:51,464
Speaker 1: people to Christ and they have a little fun with

1630
01:27:51,535 --> 01:27:53,954
Speaker 1: it here and there. So I think it's a tool.

1631
01:27:54,335 --> 01:27:57,295
Speaker 1: It's a tool we can use like any tool. We

1632
01:27:57,335 --> 01:27:59,794
Speaker 1: live in a social media world now. And if in

1633
01:27:59,835 --> 01:28:01,775
Speaker 1: the church, if we're not using it, we're missing a

1634
01:28:01,814 --> 01:28:05,504
Speaker 1: huge communication opportunity. I remember when Twitter was first coming out,

1635
01:28:05,585 --> 01:28:08,344
Speaker 1: now X. And I remember we were doing a pastor's

1636
01:28:08,384 --> 01:28:11,155
Speaker 1: conference on a lot of pastors were saying, I'm not

1637
01:28:11,174 --> 01:28:13,055
Speaker 1: going on Twitter. Twitter's evil. I go, what do you

1638
01:28:13,075 --> 01:28:15,854
Speaker 1: mean Twitter's evil? I said, it's like, Twitter's like a

1639
01:28:16,455 --> 01:28:19,895
Speaker 1: microphone hooked up to two speakers. I'm a speaker. Why

1640
01:28:19,915 --> 01:28:22,735
Speaker 1: wouldn't I speak in the microphone? I'm not afraid of that.

1641
01:28:23,354 --> 01:28:26,054
Speaker 1: I mean, sure, there's bad stuff out there, but There's

1642
01:28:26,094 --> 01:28:28,325
Speaker 1: bad stuff everywhere. What am I never going to talk

1643
01:28:28,335 --> 01:28:31,125
Speaker 1: to anybody because somebody misuses it? So I'm going to

1644
01:28:31,184 --> 01:28:34,205
Speaker 1: go and use those mediums and try to get the

1645
01:28:34,245 --> 01:28:36,785
Speaker 1: gospel to people because there might be someone you could

1646
01:28:36,825 --> 01:28:40,814
Speaker 1: reach on social media or online or on TV or

1647
01:28:40,894 --> 01:28:43,854
Speaker 1: on radio that you would not reach otherwise. There's a

1648
01:28:43,894 --> 01:28:47,014
Speaker 1: guy like he was going to kill himself. He was

1649
01:28:47,054 --> 01:28:50,454
Speaker 1: a Vietnam vet. He had his gun loaded. He had

1650
01:28:50,474 --> 01:28:53,205
Speaker 1: it in his hand and he was holding it up

1651
01:28:53,285 --> 01:28:56,185
Speaker 1: to his head to pull the trigger. And he was

1652
01:28:56,245 --> 01:28:58,965
Speaker 1: afraid and he laid it down and he turned on

1653
01:28:59,005 --> 01:29:02,254
Speaker 1: the TV and he saw me speaking. And I was

1654
01:29:02,275 --> 01:29:05,735
Speaker 1: speaking from one of our crusades and I led a

1655
01:29:05,795 --> 01:29:09,165
Speaker 1: prayer and he prayed the prayer. And then he, his

1656
01:29:09,205 --> 01:29:12,365
Speaker 1: father and him needed to reconcile. We got in his motorcycle,

1657
01:29:12,945 --> 01:29:16,745
Speaker 1: rode halfway across the country, reconciled with his father. And

1658
01:29:16,785 --> 01:29:18,784
Speaker 1: he wrote me a letter and told me the story

1659
01:29:19,025 --> 01:29:20,505
Speaker 1: and put the bullet in the envelope.

1660
01:29:20,564 --> 01:29:21,025
Speaker 2: Wow.

1661
01:29:21,485 --> 01:29:24,525
Speaker 1: So, you know, why do I use television for people

1662
01:29:24,564 --> 01:29:24,985
Speaker 1: like that?

1663
01:29:25,045 --> 01:29:25,325
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1664
01:29:25,825 --> 01:29:27,044
Speaker 1: Like, how would I reach that guy?

1665
01:29:27,184 --> 01:29:27,724
Speaker 2: Yeah, no way.

1666
01:29:27,745 --> 01:29:29,684
Speaker 1: He's not going to darken the doorway of our church,

1667
01:29:30,045 --> 01:29:31,865
Speaker 1: but he was flipping the channels with a gun in

1668
01:29:31,924 --> 01:29:34,265
Speaker 1: his hand. I've heard a lot of crazy stories like

1669
01:29:34,325 --> 01:29:36,684
Speaker 1: that of all kinds of things.

1670
01:29:37,455 --> 01:29:38,574
Speaker 2: Tell me about the Sabbath.

1671
01:29:39,455 --> 01:29:43,314
Speaker 1: Really, originally it was given to the Jewish people as

1672
01:29:43,394 --> 01:29:46,714
Speaker 1: a day of rest. God rested after he created the world.

1673
01:29:47,634 --> 01:29:49,985
Speaker 1: And so he told his people to take a day

1674
01:29:50,045 --> 01:29:55,585
Speaker 1: of rest. I think as time passed, people perverted the

1675
01:29:55,644 --> 01:29:58,635
Speaker 1: meaning of it. Like they got angry at Jesus for

1676
01:29:58,714 --> 01:30:01,915
Speaker 1: healing people on the Sabbath, doing a miracle on the Sabbath.

1677
01:30:02,684 --> 01:30:05,304
Speaker 1: And that was obviously a violation of what the Sabbath

1678
01:30:05,344 --> 01:30:08,004
Speaker 1: was ever meant to be. They were missing the point completely.

1679
01:30:08,025 --> 01:30:11,285
Speaker 1: I think for a New Testament person, for a Christian,

1680
01:30:11,304 --> 01:30:14,825
Speaker 1: a day of rest is a great idea. Taking time

1681
01:30:14,905 --> 01:30:17,184
Speaker 1: off is a great idea. I'll be honest. If there's

1682
01:30:17,245 --> 01:30:20,684
Speaker 1: any area I fall short in, it's that. It's hard

1683
01:30:20,724 --> 01:30:24,495
Speaker 1: for me to unplug. It's hard for me to vacation

1684
01:30:24,714 --> 01:30:28,214
Speaker 1: and rest. And so I have to really almost force

1685
01:30:28,275 --> 01:30:31,434
Speaker 1: myself to do it. And I, like many people, am

1686
01:30:31,495 --> 01:30:34,895
Speaker 1: distracted by this and other things that I do. But

1687
01:30:34,934 --> 01:30:38,095
Speaker 1: I think it's a really good thing to take time off. Now,

1688
01:30:38,134 --> 01:30:42,204
Speaker 1: I don't think a Christian is required to strictly observe

1689
01:30:42,264 --> 01:30:46,144
Speaker 1: the Sabbath, like from sundown to sunup. But if someone

1690
01:30:46,184 --> 01:30:47,985
Speaker 1: wanted to do it, I don't think there's anything wrong

1691
01:30:48,005 --> 01:30:51,375
Speaker 1: with it. But I think the Bible says there remains

1692
01:30:51,424 --> 01:30:54,094
Speaker 1: a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for he

1693
01:30:54,155 --> 01:30:56,974
Speaker 1: that has entered into this rest has ceased from his labors.

1694
01:30:57,564 --> 01:30:59,905
Speaker 1: as God did from his. So the idea is for us,

1695
01:31:00,724 --> 01:31:04,885
Speaker 1: New Testament people that believe in what Jesus did, it

1696
01:31:04,924 --> 01:31:07,044
Speaker 1: said he paid the price so I can rest in

1697
01:31:07,085 --> 01:31:09,985
Speaker 1: that work, but I'm not bound by a single day.

1698
01:31:10,325 --> 01:31:13,104
Speaker 1: But if someone said, we take Saturdays off and put

1699
01:31:13,144 --> 01:31:16,724
Speaker 1: all of our devices away or Sunday, that's great. I

1700
01:31:16,764 --> 01:31:19,165
Speaker 1: respect that. I probably should do that.

1701
01:31:20,705 --> 01:31:22,985
Speaker 2: Were you around when Bob Dylan was born again?

1702
01:31:23,525 --> 01:31:23,825
Speaker 1: Yes.

1703
01:31:24,184 --> 01:31:24,765
Speaker 2: Tell me about that.

1704
01:31:24,785 --> 01:31:26,545
Speaker 1: Well, that was a big deal. We were all excited.

1705
01:31:27,325 --> 01:31:30,085
Speaker 1: And I actually think Slow Train Coming was a brilliant record.

1706
01:31:30,924 --> 01:31:34,335
Speaker 1: Mark Knopfler on guitar. Dylan, I thought he wrote some

1707
01:31:34,354 --> 01:31:38,535
Speaker 1: amazing songs. Slow Train Coming. Of course, you got to

1708
01:31:38,575 --> 01:31:41,195
Speaker 1: serve somebody. A lot of them are, and they were

1709
01:31:41,235 --> 01:31:45,254
Speaker 1: very biblical. And I knew people who knew him, who

1710
01:31:46,535 --> 01:31:49,205
Speaker 1: went to the same Bible study he went to, Vineyard,

1711
01:31:49,785 --> 01:31:52,104
Speaker 1: it was called, which is an offshoot of Calvary Chapel.

1712
01:31:52,625 --> 01:31:54,684
Speaker 1: And Dylan was like, not just going to church, he

1713
01:31:54,724 --> 01:31:57,314
Speaker 1: was like in a little Bible school thing. He was

1714
01:31:57,354 --> 01:32:00,495
Speaker 1: really studying scripture. And so I actually wrote a book

1715
01:32:00,535 --> 01:32:04,485
Speaker 1: called Lennon, Dylan, Alice, and Jesus. And it's about the

1716
01:32:04,564 --> 01:32:09,104
Speaker 1: spiritual search of different rock stars. So talk about John Lennon,

1717
01:32:09,165 --> 01:32:12,424
Speaker 1: who actually did make a profession of faith for a

1718
01:32:12,464 --> 01:32:14,985
Speaker 1: short period of time. Then Dylan, of course, who made

1719
01:32:15,025 --> 01:32:19,085
Speaker 1: the same. And Alice Cooper, who I know, who came

1720
01:32:19,134 --> 01:32:21,975
Speaker 1: to the Lord many years ago, and then how they

1721
01:32:22,014 --> 01:32:26,325
Speaker 1: encountered Jesus. But My understanding of Dylan, even at this moment,

1722
01:32:26,424 --> 01:32:29,914
Speaker 1: is I don't think he's ever abandoned that faith. He's

1723
01:32:29,964 --> 01:32:33,035
Speaker 1: never said anything like that. And I was looking at

1724
01:32:33,075 --> 01:32:36,255
Speaker 1: a set list from his recent concert. He's still doing

1725
01:32:36,335 --> 01:32:40,474
Speaker 1: songs off his Slow Train Coming record, including one called

1726
01:32:40,514 --> 01:32:43,075
Speaker 1: Every Grain of Sand based on the Psalms. And he

1727
01:32:43,214 --> 01:32:47,215
Speaker 1: ends with that. So I don't think Dylan walked away

1728
01:32:47,255 --> 01:32:50,135
Speaker 1: from it. Well, maybe he wasn't as vocal about it

1729
01:32:50,214 --> 01:32:53,275
Speaker 1: as he was and Slow Train Coming, and then there's

1730
01:32:53,354 --> 01:32:57,714
Speaker 1: other two so-called gospel records. But he's done some songs

1731
01:32:57,735 --> 01:33:00,894
Speaker 1: since then that I think still allude to it. So

1732
01:33:01,535 --> 01:33:04,744
Speaker 1: it seemed to me like a real conversion, and the

1733
01:33:04,884 --> 01:33:08,745
Speaker 1: lyric content was brilliant. And I still think it's one

1734
01:33:08,785 --> 01:33:10,045
Speaker 1: of the best records he ever did.

1735
01:33:10,064 --> 01:33:14,964
Speaker 2: Do you feel like you chose Jesus or Jesus chose you?

1736
01:33:15,304 --> 01:33:19,064
Speaker 1: Both. Jesus said, you did not choose me, but I

1737
01:33:19,125 --> 01:33:21,804
Speaker 1: chose you. and ordained you that you should go and

1738
01:33:21,825 --> 01:33:26,134
Speaker 1: bring forth much spiritual fruit. So I did choose Jesus,

1739
01:33:26,535 --> 01:33:30,834
Speaker 1: and the Bible appeals to our choice. Choose you this

1740
01:33:30,894 --> 01:33:34,434
Speaker 1: day whom you will serve, Elijah said of Mount Carmel.

1741
01:33:35,245 --> 01:33:37,865
Speaker 1: If the Lord is God, follow him. Then Joshua says,

1742
01:33:38,025 --> 01:33:41,124
Speaker 1: as for me, In my house, we will follow the Lord.

1743
01:33:41,625 --> 01:33:44,225
Speaker 1: God says, I set before you a choice, life and death,

1744
01:33:44,644 --> 01:33:47,285
Speaker 1: blessings or curses. Choose life that you may live. So

1745
01:33:47,665 --> 01:33:51,445
Speaker 1: there's many verses that appeal to my choice. Whoever will

1746
01:33:51,485 --> 01:33:53,465
Speaker 1: call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

1747
01:33:53,924 --> 01:33:57,264
Speaker 1: I have to call upon him. If I'm drowning and

1748
01:33:57,285 --> 01:33:59,884
Speaker 1: there's a lifeguard, they're not going to read my mind.

1749
01:33:59,945 --> 01:34:02,365
Speaker 1: I got to call out for help. So here's God

1750
01:34:02,384 --> 01:34:04,184
Speaker 1: who wants to save me, but I have to ask

1751
01:34:04,224 --> 01:34:07,945
Speaker 1: for his help. So I'm choosing him, but he chooses me.

1752
01:34:08,955 --> 01:34:11,985
Speaker 1: And I don't know the basis of that. And that's

1753
01:34:12,344 --> 01:34:15,964
Speaker 1: coming back to a subject called predestination. And that's a

1754
01:34:16,025 --> 01:34:19,064
Speaker 1: hard one to figure out. I heard it illustrated this way.

1755
01:34:19,665 --> 01:34:21,825
Speaker 1: You're walking down the road and you see a door

1756
01:34:22,285 --> 01:34:24,795
Speaker 1: and it's written on the door, whosoever will, let him come.

1757
01:34:24,814 --> 01:34:25,254
Speaker 2: You go, hmm.

1758
01:34:25,875 --> 01:34:28,415
Speaker 1: You walk by it, walk by it again. Whosoever will,

1759
01:34:28,455 --> 01:34:31,314
Speaker 1: let him come. Because that's what the Bible says. Whosoever will,

1760
01:34:31,335 --> 01:34:33,365
Speaker 1: let him come and drink of the water of life freely.

1761
01:34:33,634 --> 01:34:35,665
Speaker 1: I'd like to do that. I've heard other people have

1762
01:34:35,674 --> 01:34:38,525
Speaker 1: done that. Then one day you open the door and

1763
01:34:38,545 --> 01:34:40,565
Speaker 1: you walk in and you shut the door. And on

1764
01:34:40,604 --> 01:34:43,224
Speaker 1: the other side of it, it says chosen in Christ

1765
01:34:43,245 --> 01:34:46,285
Speaker 1: from the foundation of the world. So who chose who? Well,

1766
01:34:46,304 --> 01:34:49,604
Speaker 1: God chose you, but you had to exercise your free will.

1767
01:34:50,464 --> 01:34:52,905
Speaker 1: So people have said, well, how do you reconcile that?

1768
01:34:53,025 --> 01:34:56,495
Speaker 1: You don't have to reconcile friends. The free will of

1769
01:34:56,554 --> 01:35:00,275
Speaker 1: man and the choosing of God or predestination are both

1770
01:35:00,314 --> 01:35:03,615
Speaker 1: taught in Scripture. Maybe I can't completely explain it, but

1771
01:35:03,634 --> 01:35:06,495
Speaker 1: they're both there. But having said that, as far as

1772
01:35:06,535 --> 01:35:09,795
Speaker 1: it goes for me, I have to choose to follow Christ.

1773
01:35:10,434 --> 01:35:13,865
Speaker 1: And that's why as an evangelist, I challenge people to

1774
01:35:13,924 --> 01:35:17,044
Speaker 1: come to Christ. It's not like you're just born a Christian.

1775
01:35:17,165 --> 01:35:20,424
Speaker 1: Jesus said you have to be born again. And he

1776
01:35:20,464 --> 01:35:24,025
Speaker 1: said that to Nicodemus, a very religious man who others

1777
01:35:24,064 --> 01:35:28,815
Speaker 1: looked up to. And he said, you must be born again, Nicodemus.

1778
01:35:28,835 --> 01:35:31,155
Speaker 1: How can this be? You mean like enter into my

1779
01:35:31,195 --> 01:35:33,735
Speaker 1: mother's womb again? Jesus says, no, that which is born

1780
01:35:33,795 --> 01:35:36,094
Speaker 1: of flesh is flesh. That which is born of spirit

1781
01:35:36,375 --> 01:35:40,335
Speaker 1: is spirit. You must be born again. So it means

1782
01:35:40,375 --> 01:35:44,314
Speaker 1: a spiritual rebirth. And that happens when you choose Christ,

1783
01:35:44,354 --> 01:35:48,134
Speaker 1: when you believe in Christ and you're born spiritually.