1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 2: Welcome to I Wish you could hear this, where we 3 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 2: explore great stories and simple, proven steps to help you 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 2: thrive in life, faith, and relationships. 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:21,080 Speaker 1: In our research, we've heard hundreds of Hopefield strategies for marriage, parenting, leadership, 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: and life that are grounded in science and consistent with 7 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: biblical truth, and now you can hear them too. 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 2: Okay, we are back with a Part two of a 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 2: just an incredibly important conversation with Matthew and Joanna Rabsmith 10 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: about sexual addiction and betrayal, trauma and as certified coaches 11 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: in this area, and Joanna being a licensed marriage and 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 2: family therapist and a trauma therapist. They shared in part 13 00:00:54,800 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 2: one their story of Matthew having to confess that he 14 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 2: had been caught in sexual addiction for years and compulsion 15 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: and what they did to get out of that, and 16 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,760 Speaker 2: then now how they have helped other couples find healing, 17 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,199 Speaker 2: and so in this part too, we want to really 18 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: get into the practical things, because in Part one, Joanna 19 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: shared a story of how this all started when she 20 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 2: was taking her very first class as a marriage and 21 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 2: family therapist and somebody came in and gave their testimony 22 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 2: and presented a list, and she then confronted Matthew and said, 23 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 2: is this really going on with you? And Okay, here's 24 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 2: a list, and so I am so I want to 25 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 2: know what is in that list? What did you do 26 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 2: just to get us started? I want to get in 27 00:01:54,040 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 2: a minute into your book. You have a book called 28 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: Building True Intimacy, and I want to get into that. 29 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 2: But I want to before we do that. I'm curious 30 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 2: if you have if that book comes out of a 31 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 2: framework from that list, or if that list was just 32 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 2: a starting point. Tell us a little bit about that. 33 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 3: Yes, that's such a great question. So back when we 34 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 3: started recovery over a decade ago, there was not a 35 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 3: lot of resources and there was not a lot of 36 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 3: frameworks at the time, and so that list was mainly 37 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: resources for Matthew to heal out of this sexual addiction side. 38 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 3: And so, okay, fantastic for that in the beginning, but 39 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 3: we realized really quickly we're going to need a whole 40 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,839 Speaker 3: lot more than just that, because it's impacted him, it's 41 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 3: impacted me, and it's impacted our relationship. And so I 42 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: kind of had to dig around to find my own resources. 43 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 3: And then as a couple, we kind of wandered through 44 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 3: the desert for a while trying to figure out what 45 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 3: the relational pieces. And so our book in that framework 46 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 3: of the intimacy pyramid really was from our own journey 47 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:11,239 Speaker 3: and our professional experience trying to create a roadmap for 48 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 3: couples wanting to heal their. 49 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: Relationship relationship side of things. Okay, that's that's good. 50 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's what's really interesting is we found but 51 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 4: the concepts are still the same. 52 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 5: The individual process that. 53 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 4: I had to go through early on in recovery really 54 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 4: mirrors what the couple goes through. And so just to 55 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,639 Speaker 4: kind of give you an example, the very first thing 56 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 4: I had to do was to get honest. I had 57 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 4: spent so many years not only lying to other people, 58 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 4: I lied to myself. I told myself constantly, it's not 59 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 4: that big a deal, everybody does it, right. But I 60 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 4: also would lie and tell myself like if anyone knows, 61 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 4: they'll leave you. So there were all these lies that 62 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 4: I was living, and so to get free. 63 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 5: Part of the list that Johanna handed me was to. 64 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 4: Go to a men's intensive where we all got honest 65 00:03:59,520 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 4: about sexual addiction and the way it rolled into my 66 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 4: life and I had three days kind of stooquestered with 67 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 4: a group of thirty guys, and we really started unpacking 68 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 4: not only what we were doing in the present, but 69 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 4: what had happened in the past. And that's really part 70 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 4: of the work. Part of the work is not only 71 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 4: being honest, but it's dealing with what you have to 72 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 4: be honest about. It's dealing with the work. 73 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 5: Right. 74 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 4: It was one thing to say, hey, I do this, 75 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 4: these things happened to me as a kid, right, all 76 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 4: of these experiences that build up to this, But just saying. 77 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 5: That doesn't heal it. It names it, but it doesn't 78 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 5: truly heal it. 79 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 4: And so I did work with a therapist, with counseling, 80 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 4: I did twelve step group programs. I started meeting with men, 81 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 4: really for the first time in my life. I had 82 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 4: really avoided relationships with men for a long time because 83 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 4: of some of my childhood experiences and really kind of 84 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 4: isolated myself. And so I started to learn how to 85 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 4: live in community, how to really build deeper and deeper relationships. 86 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 4: And as I was going through this individual work and 87 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 4: Joanna was starting to do her work as well, we 88 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:04,160 Speaker 4: started to see how the piece is really alive. 89 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 5: For the relationship. 90 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 6: We kind of. 91 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 3: Mentioned that honesty piece. That's the bottom layer of the pyramid. 92 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: And so so picture we're picturing a pyramid. Yes, it 93 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: was the bottom playing. 94 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, And so if you know Maslow's hierarchy of needs, 95 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 3: there's these different layers of the pyramid, right, the build 96 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 3: on top of each other. 97 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 6: That bottom layer is honesty. 98 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 3: And so he had to get honest with himself if 99 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:29,200 Speaker 3: he was going to then. 100 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 6: Bring honesty into the relationship. 101 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 3: So it was really important for him to do his 102 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 3: own individual work get honest with himself. He was able 103 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 3: to share his story with the guys at that intensive, 104 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 3: the guys in his twelve step group, to prepare him 105 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:44,120 Speaker 3: to then. 106 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 6: Bring honesty into the relationship. 107 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 3: And so one of the important pieces of honesty relationally 108 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 3: is called a full therapeutic disclosure. 109 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 6: And that's where he basically took all of that and 110 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 6: came and shared it with me. 111 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: So I had the same understanding of of him and 112 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 3: the reality of our relationship, because I can't be honest 113 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 3: if I don't know, and so much of the reality 114 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 3: I lived through was kept hitting and so it was 115 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 3: a way that he then helped me step into the 116 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 3: reality of our story and empower me to then make. 117 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: Decisions based Now let me just let me just pause 118 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: for just a second and say, the full therapeutic disclosure 119 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,719 Speaker 2: one of the things that I know many therapists recommend. 120 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: And I don't know where you stand on this, but 121 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 2: many people say, don't try to do that full therapeutic 122 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 2: disclosure without the help of a therapist, because you're going 123 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 2: into places that the person who's hearing it needs the 124 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: help to process it as well. Now that's not to 125 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 2: say hold on to lies. You know, obviously we're talking 126 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 2: about some of these things. But it's one thing to say, 127 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: you know, hey, honey, just you know, when I was 128 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 2: a teenager, I was engauged in online pornography a lot, 129 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 2: and it comes up in my life occasionally and I'm 130 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: in a moment of wrestling with that. Could you pray 131 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 2: for me? And can we get covenant eyes on our internet? 132 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: And that's one thing, like to say, like that kind 133 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 2: of thing. That's a different situation than I've been living 134 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 2: a lie for ten years in our marriage and there's 135 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 2: all this stuff that's piled up that I need to 136 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: disclose to you, And you know, the proverbial You've just 137 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 2: taken this giant, full suitcase that you've been carrying around, 138 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: this weight, and you've just transferred it to your spouse, 139 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 2: and that you need therapeutic help with. But so we're 140 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 2: when you talk about that, I just want to make 141 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: sure that we're on the same page of if you're 142 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 2: listening to this, and it's really more of a matter 143 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: of you know, I've got some things I probably need 144 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: to just be more open about and vulnerabout. And it's 145 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: not that same level. We're not saying you have to 146 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,480 Speaker 2: have a therapist in order to talk to your spouse. 147 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 4: No, yeah, yeah, Well, and what's what we love is 148 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 4: there are these really big moments like we had, and 149 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 4: we spend weeks with a couple preparing a full disclosure, 150 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 4: but we also will also let that couple know this 151 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 4: is the new way of living. Not I'm dumping all 152 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 4: this new information on you, but I actually learned to 153 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 4: live in transparency, and that's really where honesty is restored 154 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 4: in the relationship. I had to figure out how to 155 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 4: be honest about everything. I mean, I as someone who 156 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 4: would hide pornography, I would also hide the sweets that 157 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 4: I would eat. 158 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 5: I would hide how much time I watched. 159 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,439 Speaker 4: TV, I would I was hiding everything, and so part 160 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 4: of my really transformation became getting comfortable talking about stuff 161 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 4: and not confessing necessarily, but just being open about it 162 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 4: and learning to live in that openness so that our 163 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 4: relationship could actually find deeper connection. 164 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 3: But it's hard to be open and transparent on a 165 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,559 Speaker 3: daily basis if you haven't kind of pressed the reset 166 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 3: button on honesty, because it's gonna start to bring up 167 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 3: questions like, wait, what you're telling me now doesn't fit 168 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 3: with what I thought was going on. Right, That's why 169 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 3: you need that full therapeutic disclosure. We got to get 170 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 3: real about the past so we can be transparent on 171 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 3: an ongoing basis. 172 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 6: So what happens? Yeah, go ahead, No. 173 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 2: I I'm sorry, I'm completely taking over all the questions. 174 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,199 Speaker 2: I'm looking here at Jeff going, I'm so sorry. 175 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 5: Like you get the training in that. 176 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 2: Well, it's just it's an area that you and I 177 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 2: have both researched for so many years. But I'm curious. 178 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: One of the things that I'm curious, Joanna, was there 179 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 2: anything that you had to get honest about. 180 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, So for the partner, usually the honesty is around 181 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 3: the impact of what they're now hearing. And so there 182 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 3: have been times where we've done double disclosures with couples 183 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: where there's betrayal on both sides, and so every couple 184 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 3: is obviously unique, and so going, Okay, what does honesty 185 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 3: look like for this couple? For most couples, for that 186 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 3: betrayed spouse, it's being able to be honest in the 187 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: relationship about the impact and what they're experiencing now because 188 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 3: of the betrayal. And we actually have a very structured 189 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 3: formal process for that called an impact letter or a 190 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 3: lost letter, where they get to describe the pain, the hurt, 191 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 3: what they've lost because of the reality of what they're 192 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 3: hearing in that full disclosure. 193 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: So as I'm hearing this, I'm running it through kind 194 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: of my grid in some things that I've heard in 195 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: the past. I'm a enneagram one for those out there 196 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: who know the enneagram. So I'm the moral perfectionist in 197 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: our family. I'm very yah my inner critic on me. 198 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: You know, I know what I'm where I'm missing the mark, 199 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: and I also know where Shanti's missing the mark. 200 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 5: Unfortunately. 201 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,079 Speaker 1: But I remember hearing a story of an ex pastor 202 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 1: and his wife where the pastor had a moral failing 203 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: and had an affair, and you know, he was devastated. 204 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna just go from his perspective, his was the 205 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: how could I have done this sort of thing? So 206 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: he was devastated, and his wife came alongside him and 207 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: supported him. You know, she was very compassionate and everything. 208 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: And she said it went on for you know, months, 209 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: his despair and despondency, and finally one day I heard 210 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 1: him out in the garage working on something and he 211 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 1: was whistling, and I went, hey, wait a minute, buddy, 212 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: you you don't have a right to be happy yet. 213 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 1: You know, she had to confront the fact that she was, like, 214 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: there's still some penance that need to be done here. 215 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: So I get the you know, on the side of 216 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: the betrayed spouse, how do they you know, get to 217 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: the point of Okay, let's turn the page or something 218 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: like that. 219 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I think that's so good because what 220 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 3: we find and what you describe is actually more common 221 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 3: than you would imagine. Right, you have this very broken, 222 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 3: often traumatized individual who has had the addiction, has committed 223 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 3: the betrayal. That's usually the reason, right, that root pain, 224 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 3: that has led to them going so far outside their 225 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,840 Speaker 3: value system. They're now getting honest, they're in recovery, but 226 00:12:27,880 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 3: they have a lot of healing to do before they're strong. 227 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 6: And that partner who's just been hurt, they kind of 228 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 6: know that. So they stay strong. 229 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 3: They keep the family together, they keep the kids okay, right, 230 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 3: they shove their pain down in some ways to keep 231 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 3: enough stability for the family to survive while their partner 232 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 3: is getting healthier. What's amazing, what it's really interesting is 233 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 3: as they start right, the betrayed spouse starts to feel 234 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 3: safer because their partner is getting healthy. Their body knows 235 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 3: it's safe to feel my pain. Now, it's safe to 236 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,319 Speaker 3: finally let myself break apart. 237 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 5: And I have to. 238 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 6: I have to break apart so I can heal. 239 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 3: It's that grieving process, right, when you lose a loved one, 240 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 3: You have to go through that grieving process if you 241 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 3: really want to heal. And so, but it's very confusing 242 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 3: for couples sometimes, right because the addict's like, wait, no, 243 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 3: I'm finally like we're finally okay, We're. 244 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 6: Finally okay, and what's going on? Why can't we move 245 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 6: on now? Right? 246 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 3: And so if you can understand that dynamic, it can 247 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 3: normalize that, and you can be really intentional and celebrate 248 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,720 Speaker 3: it as Yes, it is a sign that there's more safety. 249 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: So if you think about that honesty layer, the next 250 00:13:45,480 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 3: layer is safety that it's a sign that we're moving 251 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: into safety. 252 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 6: We are progressing. 253 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: But if we don't give you space to break apart 254 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 3: and grieve and feel your pain, we won't keep going 255 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 3: till trust. 256 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 6: And so trust is that layer. 257 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 3: And so what's so important in that moment are that 258 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 3: healing journey, is that. 259 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 6: That betrayings spouse can come alongside. 260 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 3: And help hold the pain of that partner and empathize 261 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 3: and validate and listen to the ways that I've hurt you. 262 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: And as opposed to Okay, we're good, let's move past this. 263 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 5: Yeah, why won't you trust me? 264 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: Right? 265 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 4: You know, what we find is when when the goal 266 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 4: is to be trusted, the process takes forever. 267 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 5: When the goal of an addict or. 268 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 4: A betraying spouse is to be trustworthy, the process actually 269 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 4: moves fairly quickly. 270 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 5: Right when I just focus on what is. 271 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 4: The trustworthy thing, And the trustworthy thing is that when 272 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 4: I've hurt someone, to be present for them right as 273 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 4: they are healing. 274 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 5: That's the trustworthy thing. 275 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 4: And so learning to do that and recognizing, I mean, 276 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 4: this is part of the going back to the honesty 277 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 4: phase is knowing I might not be very good at 278 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 4: that if I've spent a lifetime avoiding emotions. Right, one 279 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 4: of the realities of sexual addiction is it's emotional avoidance. 280 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 4: I don't want to feel anything, so I'm gonna numb 281 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 4: it out with anything I can. So part of my 282 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 4: healing journey was not just for myself, but learning to 283 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 4: feel emotions with Joanna, to be able to sit with 284 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 4: her pain, her experience the things that she lost, because 285 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,600 Speaker 4: we recognize as we move forward, we really both lost 286 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 4: a lot in what had happened. One of the things 287 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 4: that Joanna lost was kind of her dream and expectation 288 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 4: of what marriage would be. And and so for years 289 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 4: I didn't want to talk about that part of it. 290 00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 4: I wanted to talk about like, look at the the 291 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 4: years of the sobriety I have, look at the chips, 292 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 4: and the guys in my group. 293 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 5: Think I'm doing really well. Let's talk about those things. 294 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 4: Right, And Joanna is like, I don't feel good every day, 295 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 4: some days feel bad. Can we also talk about those 296 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 4: things and when when that space is made for a couple, 297 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 4: that's what restores trust. That's actually the thing a lot 298 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 4: of I think a lot of folks who have betrayed someone, 299 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 4: they think, if I just don't do the bad thing anymore, right, 300 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 4: if I'm just good all the time, that will mean trust. 301 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 4: It's that plus the willingness to be with the person 302 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 4: who is hurt and to say I get it, and 303 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 4: I get you're gonna have some tough days too, and 304 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 4: I'm gonna I'm going to be kind of holding our 305 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 4: relationship and balance as well, the way you held it 306 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 4: for us when. 307 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 5: I was really struggling. 308 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 4: And that's really what's key is recognizing, you know, Joanna 309 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 4: was holding our marriage together for years when I was 310 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 4: really running from our relationship and the responsibilities that I'd 311 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 4: signed up for. And so part of my journey was 312 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 4: to recognize, like, Okay, I can hold it now too. 313 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 4: If you need me to hold this, I can't. What 314 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 4: was great that allowed me to actually live into my values, 315 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 4: that actually helped me to find. 316 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 5: The integrity of who I wanted to be, and I 317 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 5: kind of started to build trust with myself. 318 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 4: I started to go I trust myself, I trust who 319 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 4: I am as a person, and I like that feeling. 320 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 4: And the more I was able to trust myself, the 321 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,239 Speaker 4: more I found Joanna was able to trust me. And 322 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 4: what's really beautiful is we see when couples start to 323 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,479 Speaker 4: do this, they enter into the parts of relationship that 324 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 4: marriage and intimate relationships were designed for. Vulnerability which comes 325 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 4: after trust, and then vulnerability which leads into this incredible 326 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 4: life giving intimacy. And so a lot of the later 327 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 4: work for couples is really finding deeper connection. We tell 328 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 4: people all the time, like, don't walk this path if 329 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 4: you have a choice. 330 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,479 Speaker 5: This is not Betrayal is not the way to have 331 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 5: a great marriage. 332 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 4: But the incredible gift that God gives couples is there 333 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 4: can be a great marriage on the other side. There 334 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 4: can be incredibly deep connection because you actually learn to 335 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:59,720 Speaker 4: be real about what is going on with you, not 336 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 4: just in this moment of betrayal. We don't really talk 337 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,800 Speaker 4: about that much in our marriage day to day. We 338 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,600 Speaker 4: don't we don't reminisce about those parts of our life, 339 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 4: but we have the connection of going through it. 340 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,959 Speaker 3: We know we can hold heavy, hard things together. We 341 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,919 Speaker 3: know we can also hold the joy right, we're a 342 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:19,719 Speaker 3: team on both of those sides. 343 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: How long does it take generally from start to go 344 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: as they're moving up the pyramid which is that you 345 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: can even which. 346 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,959 Speaker 2: And we should just say the pyramid you all call 347 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: it the intimacy pyramid, because that's the top is after 348 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: we move through all these stages, and vulnerability is the 349 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 2: second to last one that you ultimately end up in 350 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 2: true intimacy again. 351 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 7: And I when we were doing the research on intimacy 352 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 7: on sex, our co author said, people are going to 353 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 7: come up to you and say and ask you how 354 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 7: often should we And he said, under no circumstances should. 355 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 1: Tell them how long? And everyone's but yeah, here I 356 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: am thinking that in more general terms, how long. 357 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,760 Speaker 4: Does it take? Yes, our save answers always it will 358 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 4: take longer than you want, But it will also take 359 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 4: shorter than you think. What we typically see with couples 360 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 4: one to two years from d day right from that 361 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 4: kind of like discovery. 362 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 5: But you can also see where it extends out. 363 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 4: A lot of what it has to do is how 364 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 4: long the betrayal took place. And you know, and this 365 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 4: is not to kind of put pressure on people because 366 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 4: I know shame can come on. But a lot of 367 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 4: the pace is really dependent on the addict, on that 368 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 4: betraying spouse. How much are they willing to do their 369 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 4: work to create space for the betrayer. Eventually, that betrayed 370 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 4: spouse she'll need to do or he will need to 371 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 4: do their healing work too. Right, they are going to 372 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 4: have to have to exp or that grief that Joanna 373 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 4: was talking about and processing that. But the work of 374 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 4: the betraying spouse really sets the pace and the tone. 375 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 3: So in some ways, we don't start the couple's healing 376 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 3: journey clock until there's extended sobriety, which if you go 377 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 3: to the iTap community, they'll say that can take three 378 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 3: to five years. Now I don't think that's the case 379 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 3: at all, But if you really want to get to 380 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 3: that intimacy place, healthy sustained sobriety has to be there first, 381 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 3: and then we can actually start doing some of that 382 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 3: couple's work, which also can easily take a few years 383 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 3: to get through. 384 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 2: So let's talk us through that. Since we talked about 385 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: getting really practical, what would be some of the steps 386 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 2: If somebody is like, I need to do this, I 387 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:57,239 Speaker 2: need to confess to my spouse and I need to 388 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 2: come in with a plan or me, you suspect this, 389 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 2: and you want to talk to your spouse and have 390 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 2: both boundaries and compassion and you know, and and sort 391 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 2: of say, here's a list, you know, what would be 392 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 2: some of the first steps that you say need to 393 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,880 Speaker 2: be taken, just from a practical standpoint, like to get 394 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: to that sense of sobriety. Because I can tell you 395 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 2: right now, even being a woman who isn't tempted by pornography, 396 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: but having had now researched more than twenty thousand men 397 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 2: and having talked to thousands of men, I can feel 398 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 2: through the podcast like cyberspace, I can feel the sense 399 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 2: of despair from some men who feel like I have 400 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 2: wanted victory over this for so long. I don't know 401 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 2: how to get to extended sobriety, and they want it desperately. 402 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: But give us some give us some helpful starting points 403 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 2: that can give that person hope that it is actually possible. 404 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 5: In what to do, Yeah, and it is. It will 405 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 5: start with. 406 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 4: Usually getting some type of professional help or some type 407 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 4: of structured support. And what I usually recommend for people 408 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 4: is some type of intensive I do think there is 409 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 4: something about having an experience. And there's what's wonderful is 410 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 4: there's a lot of different really good men's intensives out 411 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 4: there that offer different levels of kind of either therapeutic 412 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,359 Speaker 4: specialties or the ability. 413 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,160 Speaker 5: To really help people. Some are longer, they'll go for weeks, 414 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 5: Some are shorter, they go for weekends. 415 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 4: But I have seen just man after man after man 416 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 4: that I have counseled and coach have an experience to say, 417 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 4: I feel like something opened up, something changed, because it's 418 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,120 Speaker 4: usually at these places that you get the experience of 419 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 4: that freedom, of that honesty of naming it. 420 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 5: And I really do think it starts there. 421 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 4: Then this second piece is just as important that it 422 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 4: extends into continued work. Right, so working either with a 423 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,479 Speaker 4: counselor a coach, a therapist, somebody who can help you 424 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 4: through the really early stages. I worked with a counselor 425 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 4: for about six months after I did my men's intensive 426 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 4: to really get to the underlying issue. Because what we 427 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,159 Speaker 4: know is the sexual addiction, the pornography use, whatever it 428 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 4: is that I'm hiding, it's. 429 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 5: The top of the iceberg. 430 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 4: It's really everything underneath that's causing the problems, and that 431 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 4: deeper work in therapy and counseling and coaching can really 432 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 4: help me to get to. 433 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 2: That which a person can't afford. That are like men's groups, 434 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:44,000 Speaker 2: a good substitute at times they can be. 435 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 4: But there's also a lot of really affordable resources. We 436 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 4: know of programs throughout the world which will offer coaching 437 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 4: and counseling at a really affordable rate. And so it's 438 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 4: what I think people are surprised at is sometimes how 439 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 4: accessible good resources are. 440 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 6: A lot of it, too, is psycho education. 441 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 3: Right, if I'm at a point in my life, I go, 442 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 3: you know, I can just tell the way I'm feeling, 443 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 3: I need to eat healthier. But I just knew nothing 444 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 3: about eating healthy and picked random foods at the store 445 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 3: hoping they were going to work. Right, Like that would 446 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 3: be a terrible idea. I'm going to educate myself on 447 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 3: like what is healthy? What's healthy for my body? What 448 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 3: do I need? Do I need more vitamins? Do I 449 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 3: need more protein? I need to educate myself about the 450 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 3: issue I'm working on. And so I think a lot 451 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 3: of guys forget, like get educated, learn about it. Yeah, 452 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 3: nothing has probably worked because you don't actually know what 453 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,719 Speaker 3: you're up against. And so there are fantastic books and 454 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 3: podcasts and listening to stories and testimonies of other people 455 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 3: who have found freedom and what they used and why 456 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,159 Speaker 3: it worked. And so I think, just like a lot 457 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 3: of psycho education can be super helpful as well. 458 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, can you give us a couple of examples of 459 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 2: like when you say there's some resources that are either 460 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 2: freier very low cost, Yeah, and we'll put those in 461 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 2: the show notes. 462 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 6: Yeah. 463 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 5: One of my favorites is Naked Truth Recovery. 464 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 4: What a great name, of course for sexual addiction to pornography, 465 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 4: Naked Truth, And they're actually out of the UK, and 466 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 4: they have men's groups, they have coaching, they have different programs, 467 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 4: and they offer really really affordable solutions, and we can 468 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 4: give kind of some some links for some others that 469 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 4: are really great places to start. 470 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 3: And I think another one is Pure Desire will be 471 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 3: in a lot of churches and. 472 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 2: A lot of churches. Yeah, great, And they. 473 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 4: Offer groups, but they also offer counseling, they offer direct support. 474 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,680 Speaker 5: And so these are things that I think really can matter. 475 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 4: And what I think people realize when I say professional resources, it. 476 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 5: Doesn't mean you're going to be using these for the 477 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 5: rest of your life. 478 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,359 Speaker 4: I think other people may be assume, like I'm going 479 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 4: to be paying someone for fifty years. Oftentimes six months, 480 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:55,920 Speaker 4: nine months of support can really get you on the 481 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 4: right path, and you might have to. 482 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 6: Make some tough decisions. 483 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 3: When we went through recovery, we lived in California and 484 00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 3: we're both full time in grad school. We took out 485 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 3: student loans to pay for our recovery. Not a suggestion, 486 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 3: by the way, loans, but we knew, like, this is 487 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 3: so important. 488 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 6: We're willing to make this sack right. 489 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 3: Because what we're what we're investing in, it's the rest 490 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 3: of our life, and it's going to impact us and 491 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 3: really matter, and so like we are investing in our future, 492 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,400 Speaker 3: and so we really yeah, we were willing to do it, but. 493 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 5: It was not easy. 494 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 2: Okay, So step step one, when you were talking about 495 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 2: like an intensive something. Step two, invest in some ongoing 496 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 2: healing for the rest of the iceberg, the stuff that's 497 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 2: below the surface. What's the next thing? What would be 498 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 2: the next step that you all think for that person 499 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 2: who's listening and thinking I've never been able to do this, 500 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 2: give them some hope with the next practical step. 501 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 5: I think there's two more things, and the next would 502 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:05,399 Speaker 5: be community. 503 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,920 Speaker 4: Like I said, what we know is that you can't 504 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,960 Speaker 4: do this in isolation. The best you know, one of 505 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 4: the best resources for me beyond just those first two 506 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 4: is I was in a group of people who were honest. 507 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 5: Regularly. 508 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,719 Speaker 4: I loved going to my twelve Step groups because they 509 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 4: didn't lie, They were honest about their struggle. They were 510 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 4: honest about how much they wanted it to stop, and 511 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 4: their stories reminded me of all of the things I 512 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 4: tried to avoid and I still would practice try and avoid, 513 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 4: and so going to these groups really helped to open 514 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 4: my eyes. So groups like Pure Desire twelve Step groups, 515 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 4: many churches offer support. 516 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 3: Groups, and these are the same steps for the betraying spouse, 517 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 3: the betrayed spouse right getting community, finding people who understand 518 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 3: the experience, where you can be honest and for the relationship. 519 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 3: And so one of the things we realized, both through 520 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 3: our own experience and our work professionally, is that eventually 521 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 3: that couple needs other couples they're in community with where 522 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,080 Speaker 3: they can be honest to understand their story. And so 523 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,400 Speaker 3: one of the things we actually developed out our practice 524 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 3: is a couple's group program for people later in the 525 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 3: stages to be able to come together together and go, Yes, 526 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 3: there are other couples out there who are going through 527 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 3: this who value a healthy relationship. 528 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 6: We don't have to do this alone. 529 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 5: Yeah. And then the final piece is boundaries. What many 530 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 5: people forget is. 531 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 4: That I have to make hard choices about how I 532 00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 4: live my life. And it is really easy to access 533 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 4: things that will destroy your life. And if you're not 534 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 4: willing to change and to set strict boundaries, you will 535 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 4: often struggle. 536 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 5: And so one of the. 537 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 4: Things that really helped me was a deep commitment to 538 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,800 Speaker 4: radically change how I lived. I was home a lot 539 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 4: by myself with a computer, and that was not a 540 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 4: good place for me to be in recovery. And so 541 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,240 Speaker 4: it didn't take long before I recognize everything has to change. 542 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 4: So if Joanna had to leave, I would get up, 543 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 4: I would take my computer to the Pasadena Public Library 544 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 4: and I would sit in the Pasadena Public Library in 545 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 4: view of everyone, and I would be on that computer 546 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:21,880 Speaker 4: because I knew that that was a safe space. 547 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:23,480 Speaker 5: When Joanna said. 548 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 4: I'm tired, I've got to go to bed, it didn't 549 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 4: matter if I still had a paper due I was like, Okay, 550 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 4: computer's closed. 551 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 5: I'm going to bed, right. 552 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 4: These were the choices that I learned to make, and 553 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 4: that really do change the. 554 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 5: Game for a lot of people. 555 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 4: A lot of people want to continue to live the 556 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 4: way they've lived, but then like not have anything change, right, 557 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 4: like Joanna saying, like I can keep eating what I 558 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 4: eat and hoping my weight changes. 559 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 5: That's not usually how it works. 560 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 3: Or else keep all the same food in the house, 561 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 3: I'll just stop eating. 562 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 6: Yet, like I don't know how many times we've tried that, 563 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 6: It's like it's not gonna happen. 564 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: I don't have to yet. So you know, as I 565 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 1: hear this Matthew your story and talking about other guys, 566 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: I think of, you know, in like in my case, 567 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: you know, my teen years and in twenties and you 568 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: know early on in our marriage, you know, wrestled through 569 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: this also and God, you know, through changing through confession 570 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 1: with Shaunty, and you know, God delivered me. 571 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 5: And it was I'm so grateful. 572 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: Nevertheless, in the decades that that passed, it was almost 573 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: like I'm not a superstitious guy, but it was almost 574 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: like there were times when I've been free for a 575 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: decade and I wouldn't want to tell someone that I 576 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: was free, because oh my gosh, Satan is going to 577 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: pile on on that one and I am going to fall. 578 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: And it was just like, I can't talk about this 579 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: because of the fear, and over the years it has left, 580 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,720 Speaker 1: you know, and and maybe it's the extended sobriety. 581 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 5: I don't know. 582 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: Maybe it's some of it is the hair color changing. 583 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: And I don't know if it is that or not, 584 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: or if it's just God's amazing grace. But I do 585 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: want guys out there to know that you can be 586 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: free and you don't have to live in the fear 587 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: of relapse. Do the right things, but there is a 588 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:38,080 Speaker 1: freedom out there, and it's it's amazing. 589 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 5: So it really is. 590 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 2: I thank you for saying that. I mean, I think 591 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 2: I think especially people who've been caught in compulsion or addiction, 592 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 2: they're they there's a level of a sense of it's 593 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: just always I'm always going to be at risk. It's 594 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 2: going to be pulling me back down. And and I 595 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 2: think there is a need to be vigilant. But that's 596 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 2: not the same thing as that it's futile. Of course, 597 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,240 Speaker 2: it's not futile, you know you. I love I love 598 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 2: the fact that you talk about doing the work like 599 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 2: you're not a victim, like you're not at the mercy 600 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 2: of what's happened to you. You can absolutely do the work. 601 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 2: And that's both spouses, which I mean, and I'm gonna 602 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 2: I'm gonna say something that I know is I have 603 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 2: to be very careful about how we talk about it. 604 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 2: But I've heard this so many times from different wives 605 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 2: of husbands who've been dealing with pornography. Now, obviously, in 606 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 2: some cases it's flipped. Sometimes the wife is the one 607 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,960 Speaker 2: who has like we were talking about earlier, you know, 608 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 2: the erotica addiction or whatever. But let's just talk about 609 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 2: what is probably more the majority, which is the wife 610 00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: whose husband is struggling with this. I have had many 611 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 2: wives come to me privately and say that one of 612 00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: the things that really helped in their healing, meaning their healing, 613 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 2: not his healing, but their healing and building intimacy back 614 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 2: up in their marriage was the wife had to recognize, 615 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 2: you know what, it was no excuse, but I was 616 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:29,840 Speaker 2: ignoring him sexually, like I was not engaging. I was 617 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:34,280 Speaker 2: doing everything else with the kids, and and and obviously 618 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 2: like that is not an act. It is never an excuse. 619 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,640 Speaker 2: That's his issue that he has to deal with. But 620 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 2: I've had so many wives say when I had to 621 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,479 Speaker 2: recognize that I may not have had a part in 622 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 2: his addiction, but I have something to say about healing 623 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 2: our marriage in intimacy, And I thought that was so 624 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 2: because people don't want to talk about that like they 625 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 2: don't They don't want to talk about the fact that 626 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,239 Speaker 2: there may be something that you were betrayed. It's not 627 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 2: on you, and yet you still have a role to 628 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 2: play and healing process. 629 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 3: Well, sometimes talk about it like your marriage. There's a 630 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 3: heart you're having a heart attack, and there might be 631 00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 3: cancer right attack, We're going to deal with that first, 632 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 3: We're gonna deal with the effection because we can't even 633 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 3: get to the other stuff until you're stable. But yeah, absolutely, 634 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 3: once the couple is stable, you've rebuilt some safety security, 635 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:37,320 Speaker 3: you're still a couple. 636 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 5: There's still. 637 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, absolutely, And what's really cool is when people 638 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,879 Speaker 4: have had the experience of working on themselves in their relationship, 639 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 4: it's invigorating what we have found. The couples that we've 640 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:54,359 Speaker 4: worked with that get to that level of intimacy, they 641 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 4: always ask us one question, what's next, right, what do 642 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 4: we What we find is they actually go back to 643 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,359 Speaker 4: the start and they'll work on their honesty, or they'll 644 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 4: work on their trust, they'll practice being more courageous and 645 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 4: because when you have it good, you're like, let's keep 646 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:11,880 Speaker 4: it good. 647 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 5: And so that's part of the joy. 648 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 4: And when I've seen men really lead the way in 649 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 4: their recovery and be fearless and courageous and take responsibility 650 00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 4: and be humble, I've seen their wives turn around and 651 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:26,920 Speaker 4: do the very same thing and like you said, have 652 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 4: that sense of humility and say, you know what, there's 653 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 4: things that I could do that would help our connection. 654 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 5: That would help us to be more of a partner. 655 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 4: And that's the joy of the work is realizing that 656 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,320 Speaker 4: it starts to build on itself. And we talk about 657 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 4: intimate couples are life giving. When you're ever around a 658 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 4: couple that's really close, you can kind of feel it. 659 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,000 Speaker 5: You're like this, I like this. I like how this feels. 660 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,680 Speaker 4: And that's that sign of that healthiness in relationship that 661 00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 4: we're designed to be. 662 00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,000 Speaker 5: That's so good, fantastic. 663 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,959 Speaker 2: I know we're getting towards the end. I could talk 664 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 2: to you guys for another two hours before you get 665 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 2: to our last question, I do want to ask something 666 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 2: for those because we have a lot of leaders who 667 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,880 Speaker 2: listen to our podcast as well, who may be church 668 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: staff or ministry volunteers, or pastors or counselors who work 669 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 2: closely with the church. I'd love to talk about how 670 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 2: the church can help in this area. Now, you know 671 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 2: it used to be back in the day. I think 672 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 2: there were just tons of misunderstandings. I'm not sure that 673 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 2: the church was always approaching this well, but I can 674 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 2: still remember years ago when we were doing one of 675 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 2: our very early projects, I was so impressed by the 676 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 2: number of pastors who maybe weren't specialists or weren't trained 677 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,799 Speaker 2: in this, but we're wanting to handle this well. I 678 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 2: think that there's a desire in the church today to 679 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 2: want to handle these issues us well and be more 680 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 2: trauma informed and you know all that. So, but obviously 681 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 2: there's still work to be done. What is one or 682 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 2: two things that if you're speaking to a church leader 683 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 2: who's listening to this, that the church can put in 684 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 2: place to have that kind of redemptive, like open armed 685 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 2: process for people going through this. 686 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 3: I think one of the pieces, especially for those leaders, 687 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,560 Speaker 3: is by leading with your own vulnerability. 688 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 6: I don't know one of the pieces of our story. 689 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 6: I don't know if we've shared this specific detail. 690 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,919 Speaker 3: The person who came and shared in that class gave 691 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 3: his testimony that started the ball rolling for us. He 692 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 3: was a church pastor and he was a leader, and 693 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 3: he decided to step into this and be vulnerable and 694 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 3: be open and honest and be honest with what he 695 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:56,760 Speaker 3: was going through. And so a crazy part of this story. 696 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 3: Many years after he had spoken, we were on our journey. 697 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 3: We moved from La to San Diego. We were connected 698 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 3: to some churches helping kind of start recovery ministries, do 699 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 3: counseling things like that. The church we were part of 700 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 3: set up a breakfast with Matthew as mother men to 701 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 3: help this other church, neighboring church start a recovery ministry. 702 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,400 Speaker 3: Matthew shared his story, told about that pastor who was 703 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,719 Speaker 3: open and honest and vulnerable, and this guy at the 704 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:26,240 Speaker 3: end of the table raises his hand up and goes, oh, 705 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 3: that's my story, and Matthew's like, oh, you too cool. 706 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 6: He's like, no, I. 707 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 3: Was that pastor in your wife's class over five years ago, 708 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 3: and I have been told I need to hire you 709 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 3: and your wife to help us start a recovery ministry 710 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 3: in a relationship ministry. 711 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 5: At our church. 712 00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 3: And we just full circle goose bumps, right, and just 713 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 3: had an incredible experience at that church seeing what a 714 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 3: leader starting with his vulnerability can build in a church community. 715 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 5: It was God was showing off that day. He was 716 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:04,960 Speaker 5: definitely yeah, means Mike drop right. 717 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,359 Speaker 4: I was like, okay, but I think that I think 718 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 4: leading with vulnerability and then I think the other thing, 719 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,080 Speaker 4: especially for leaders, that they may not think of, is 720 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 4: having support for both spouses. Something that churches do when 721 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:21,879 Speaker 4: they know about the issue of pornography. They're like, hey, 722 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 4: we're gonna we're gonna start a men's group on sexual 723 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,480 Speaker 4: brokenness and I'll love it. Well, great, But what they 724 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,439 Speaker 4: don't realize is they have fifteen men come forward, right, 725 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 4: and now they. 726 00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,440 Speaker 6: Have fun wives are sitting there going I'm sorry, what right? 727 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,319 Speaker 4: And so what you can do is to make sure 728 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,120 Speaker 4: do we have support for those partners, right, because they're 729 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:41,800 Speaker 4: going through their own healing journey. 730 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 5: They need those spaces. 731 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,080 Speaker 4: And so we've seen some really really special churches create 732 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 4: programs for both because they know that that's what's going 733 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 4: to help those marriages to really sustain. 734 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,720 Speaker 3: Realizing you can't be an expert in everything, so knowing 735 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 3: enough to not do hard, but then having resources in 736 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 3: your back pocket that you're going. 737 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:02,719 Speaker 4: To that's good. 738 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: That's really fantastic. And it's the support for the spouses. 739 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought of that, but that is so critical 740 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,320 Speaker 1: because you know, there are dark places around the Internet 741 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: where you can find a community to share all sorts 742 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:25,759 Speaker 1: of beliefs and thoughts on Oh listen, sister, you need 743 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 1: to dump this guy in a heartbeat, or hey, buddy, 744 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:34,600 Speaker 1: you need to She doesn't deserve your your compassion, and 745 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: you don't want them going to those places to get 746 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: their their guidance. So we have talked, you know, for 747 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: these two episodes now, lots of information. I can understand 748 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,279 Speaker 1: if some people are going, oh my gosh, there is 749 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 1: so much here. I'm afraid I'm going to forget the 750 00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 1: most important parts. 751 00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 4: Now. 752 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,719 Speaker 5: I think everything was important. That was but if if I. 753 00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 1: Were to say, you know, could you guys, you know, 754 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: give me your best shot at the one takeaway that 755 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: if they're not gonna remember anything, and it may not 756 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,279 Speaker 1: even be of something that we covered, it may be 757 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: something from. 758 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 5: Your practice that you think, I wish we. 759 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,880 Speaker 1: Would have covered this, What would be what would what 760 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: would be the one thing that you'd want some a 761 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 1: couple individual listening to remember. 762 00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the greatest gift I got through my. 763 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 4: Own journey and the thing I continue to remind everyone 764 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 4: that I work with. 765 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,560 Speaker 5: Couples, you know, betrayed partners. 766 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 4: And the addicts that I get to work with. You 767 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 4: can't go through this process alone. You you really have 768 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 4: to surround yourself with the resources you deserve. I think 769 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 4: for a long time, the shame of my actions told 770 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 4: me that I didn't deserve to have people help me 771 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 4: with this, and so breaking through that and realizing no, 772 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,240 Speaker 4: I actually deserve to have people walk alongside this journey 773 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,839 Speaker 4: with me, and so really inviting people in even if 774 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 4: you're betrayed, it's the same thing you need people to 775 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:09,600 Speaker 4: walk through, Like you said, because there are a lot 776 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,400 Speaker 4: of dark voices on both sides of this issue that 777 00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,839 Speaker 4: will lead you further into pain, but there are also 778 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 4: incredibly wonderful voices of light, compassion and hope that will 779 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,880 Speaker 4: remind you of what's possible. And so really connecting with 780 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 4: people and with resources is so, hey, I think. 781 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 3: Remembering that this is possible, healing is possible, there is 782 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 3: hope for you whatever your story is. 783 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,160 Speaker 6: And trust me, we have heard all the stories and we. 784 00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,640 Speaker 3: Have seen couples heal and come through this, and I 785 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 3: think also kind of attached to that. 786 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:48,600 Speaker 6: Maybe some point is that it's worth it. 787 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,280 Speaker 3: I know for me when we dove into this journey, 788 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,440 Speaker 3: as like, I know I want to stay married, but 789 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 3: I feel like I will always be just a little 790 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 3: bit disappointed in the marriage that we're able to create. 791 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 6: That's not true. 792 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,759 Speaker 3: That is absolutely a lie. We have a marriage that 793 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,919 Speaker 3: I could have never dreamed of back when we first 794 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,719 Speaker 3: got together. And so realizing like it's gonna be hard work, 795 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,080 Speaker 3: but it is worth it. 796 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,759 Speaker 2: That's so good. So how can people find you? How 797 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,399 Speaker 2: can people find your ministry and your practice? 798 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 4: Absolutely we're pretty easy. Rabsmithteam dot com and we love 799 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:29,879 Speaker 4: people to get connected with us. One are the things 800 00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 4: that people can do and we'll put the link up. 801 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,439 Speaker 4: They can go to rabsmithteam dot com slash free and 802 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 4: we actually created a way to get more honest in 803 00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 4: your relationship. We talked about the importance of honesty and 804 00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,160 Speaker 4: one of the things that we've learned is that things 805 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,279 Speaker 4: that you learn in recovery, every couple can learn from. 806 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 4: So even if this isn't your issue, we'd love for 807 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,920 Speaker 4: you to go and get this resource. It's a daily 808 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,279 Speaker 4: check in for couples to help them to connect, to 809 00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,640 Speaker 4: be more honest, to be more reflective, and to kind 810 00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,320 Speaker 4: of create that space. And so we'd love for people 811 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,839 Speaker 4: to connect with us being to reach out. 812 00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 6: There's also an intimacy Pyramid assessment that just went up 813 00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:07,440 Speaker 6: a few weeks ago. 814 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 3: And go through it kind of figure out where are 815 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,239 Speaker 3: we in terms of honesty, safety, trust, vulnerability, intimacy, how 816 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,480 Speaker 3: how strong and maybe what are the areas we need 817 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 3: to grow in. 818 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:24,280 Speaker 2: Oh that's so good. I'm just thank you guys, thank you. 819 00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:28,200 Speaker 1: And I love the fact that we lured you in 820 00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:32,160 Speaker 1: with saying it was only going to be minutes we have. 821 00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:42,800 Speaker 2: Sorry, wonderful. I'm going to encourage everybody to check out 822 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 2: Matthew and join a Rabsmith's book as well, Building True Intimacy. 823 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:50,839 Speaker 2: We're going to put links into their website everything they 824 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 2: just said in the show notes, and also please share 825 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,760 Speaker 2: today's episode and tag the Rabsmiths on all your social 826 00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:03,440 Speaker 2: media channels. Thank you, guys, thanks for listening to I 827 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,880 Speaker 2: wish you could hear this. Remember to subscribe to our podcast, 828 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,560 Speaker 2: and as always, forward today's audio or video link to 829 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:17,360 Speaker 2: a friend, counselor, or pastor who would be encouraged. I 830 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:19,760 Speaker 2: just want to take a second to thank the team 831 00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 2: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the podcast. 832 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,440 Speaker 2: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you will find 833 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:30,080 Speaker 2: dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've 834 00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,080 Speaker 2: got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.