1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Life Audio. 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 2: Today, I'm sharing a conversation with Tyler Stayton that we 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 2: aired about a year ago, centered on his book The 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 2: Familiar Stranger. It's a meaningful invitation to reconsider our relationship 5 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 2: with a Holy Spirit, not as a distant or confusing presence, 6 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 2: but as an intimate friend who longs to be known. 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 2: In this summer season, I'm grateful to bring this conversation 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: back for you. Hello friends, I'm Alan Fadling, and you're 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 2: listening to the Unhurried Living Podcast, where we inspire you 10 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 2: to rest deeper, live fuller, and lead better. After a 11 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 2: word from our sponsor, I'll dive into this replay of 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 2: my conversation with Tyler Stayton. After a word from our sponsor, 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 2: I'll dive into my conversation with Tyler Stayton. If you've 14 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 2: ever felt a gap between what scripture says about the 15 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: Spirit's power and your own experience, you're not alone. Tyler 16 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 2: Staton offers encouraging insights into how the spirit works, inviting 17 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 2: us to grow in discernment, in our experience of God's 18 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: miraculous power, and in intimacy with God. So, whether you're 19 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: feeling curious, uncertain, or eager to go deeper. This conversation 20 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: will invite you to close that gap and step into 21 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: a more vibrant, spirit led life. My guest today, Tyler Stayton, 22 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,559 Speaker 2: is the lead pastor of Bridgetown Church. He's passionate about 23 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: pursuing prayer and relationship in the honest realities of day 24 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: to day life. Tyler is the author of two other books, 25 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: Praying Like Monks, Living Like Fools, An Invitation to the 26 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: Wonder and Mystery of Prayer, and Searching for Enough, The 27 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 2: High Wire Walk Between Doubt and Faith. Tyler lives in Portland, Oregon, 28 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 2: with his wife Kirsten, and their sons, Hank, Simon and Amos. 29 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: Now let's dive into my conversation with Tyler Stayton. Well, Tyler, 30 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: I'm so glad to have a chance to talk with 31 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 2: you about your new book, The Familiar Stranger. Thanks so 32 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: much for writing it. 33 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's great to be with you again, Alan. 34 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 2: And for me too. And I always love starting a 35 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 2: conversation about a book by asking can you share a 36 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 2: little bit about the journey that led you to the 37 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 2: writing of this particular book. 38 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say, you know, I share some of 39 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: my own journey with the person of the Trinity that 40 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: we call the Holy Spirit in the book's introduction. But 41 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: I grew up within a church tradition where there was 42 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: a lot of theology with little practice when it came 43 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: to the miraculous ministry of the Holy Spirit, and not 44 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: just the miraculous ministry, but some of the more intimate 45 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: ministries if the Spirit that are just kind of elusive 46 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: to define, like discernment. 47 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 2: You know. 48 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 1: I grew up in a church tradition where people would say, 49 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to pray about that, and that essentially meant like, 50 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: I guess, if God puts a billboard on the highway 51 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: telling me exactly what to do, I'll do it. But 52 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: otherwise I'm going to do what I think is best. 53 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: And so there wasn't much model for what is going on, 54 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,720 Speaker 1: and so much of the Book of Acts, where there 55 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: are healings, there are deliverances, there are words of prophecy 56 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: that God the Church there are, you know, just essentially 57 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: a more supernaturally driven community. And I was longing for 58 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: that because I've always believed that everything on the pages 59 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: of Scripture is livable, But I didn't know how to 60 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: begin taking steps into living what was on the pages 61 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: of the Scripture when it came to the ministry and 62 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 1: power of the Holy Spirit, and I found that my 63 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 1: experience was quite common, just that that was not just 64 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 1: true of the church tradition I grew up in, but 65 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: it had probably become predominant among the church in the US. 66 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: And then there were other streams of the church in 67 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: the US where the ministry of the Holy Spirit was everything, 68 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: where the pursuit of some sort of ecstatic experience was 69 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,799 Speaker 1: the main event. That's what we've gathered to do, and 70 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: I think many people left those traditions kind of have 71 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:00,599 Speaker 1: an opposite reaction, not hunger, but this polar rising, like 72 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: that's unhealthy, it was toxic. I had this or that experience, 73 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: and I just became really curious about the fact that, 74 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: you know, Jesus is pretty explicit in the latter chapters 75 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: of John's Gospel that He's giving the Holy Spirit to 76 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: unite the church, and the Holy Spirit has become probably 77 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: the most divisive agent within the church that people disagree 78 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 1: around theology to the Holy Spiritual traditions have divided around 79 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: theology to the Holy Spirit. And so I think I 80 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: wanted to investigate personally, what is it? How did what 81 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: got Jesus so excited become the opposite over the course 82 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: of time, and then as I went on that journey 83 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: of personal discovery, wanted to try to offer I think 84 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: like a winsome and thoughtful way back for those who 85 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: have thrown the baby out with the bath water, leaving 86 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: traditions for the expression of the Spirit is everything. And 87 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 1: for those who have a lot of biblical understanding but 88 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: no way to actually practice or live into that biblical understanding. 89 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,359 Speaker 1: Try to craft a pathway for both of those streams 90 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: back to the pursuit and life of the Holy Spirit. 91 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: So because that has knowing the Spirit and walking in 92 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: the presence of power of the Spirit has completely redefined 93 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:34,720 Speaker 1: my life as a pastor in the best way. I 94 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: feel so much more joyful, so much lighter, and I 95 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: wanted to try to give that gift away to the 96 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 1: broader church. 97 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 2: I'm so grateful for that. I love books that grow 98 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,599 Speaker 2: out of lived experience. You know, of course we're going 99 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 2: to read some books that are a little more theoretical 100 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: or you know, academic, but my favorite sort of book 101 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 2: is a book of lived experience. So the subtitle of 102 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 2: your book is reintroducing the Holy Spirit to those in 103 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 2: search of an experiential spirituality, which I really appreciate, and 104 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: I think there's a great hunger for these days. Can 105 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: you say more about this to me? It's a very 106 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: simple focus. 107 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think I've probably already said more 108 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: than enough on the reintroducing part thinking about those two 109 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: sides of the aisle when it comes to the church. 110 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, an experiential spirituality, I think is just my 111 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: attempt at talking about the lived experience of what we 112 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: see on the pages of scripture. So I don't have 113 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: in mind anything in addition to what we see in scripture. 114 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 1: I don't have in mind an expression that we see 115 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: within a certain stream of church history or anything like that. 116 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:06,239 Speaker 1: But what I do know is that every time throughout 117 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: history that I'm aware of when the church was renewed, 118 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: when when the church had become diluted over time and 119 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: then regained spiritual potency and reform to the culture around 120 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: it or the city around it to look more like 121 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: the Kingdom of God, it came along not just with 122 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: solid biblical understanding, but also with real life here at now, 123 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: biblical experience. And so my hope is that the readers 124 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: I'm writing to are those hungry for biblical experience, hungry 125 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: for God to do in our time what we read 126 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: about among the ancients on the pages of scripture, and 127 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: this book is meant to kind of craft a pathway 128 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: from a hung that is not being satisfied to Oh 129 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: now I'm beginning to taste of what I've been longing for. 130 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: After the break, I'll continue my conversation with Tyler Stayton. 131 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:17,640 Speaker 2: You know, as I was reading, you know, I really 132 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 2: appreciate those center the center section, those chapters where you 133 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,839 Speaker 2: talk about some of the metaphors that the scriptures used 134 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: describe the way of the spirit or experience of the spirit. 135 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 2: One of those is the image of the Tabernacle or 136 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: later the Temple, which is an image that continues into 137 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 2: the New Testament. How how can this image of the 138 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: temple or a temple help us in our own experience 139 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 2: of God the spirit. 140 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,360 Speaker 1: I think that the Temple is this incredible image that 141 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: you know, I'm trying to resist doing a full biblical 142 00:09:54,440 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: theology here, But if you understand what God was doing 143 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 1: all the way back in Exodus when he gave Moses 144 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: the blueprints of the temple, God is basically crafting this 145 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: long way to reveal to his people and then the 146 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: whole world that his ultimate desire is reunified intimacy that 147 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: was lost in Eden, and the indwelling of the Holy 148 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: Spirit is the here and now reunification with God. It 149 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: is the naked and unashamed knowing and being known, the 150 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: walking with God and the cool of the day in 151 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: the garden. It's the restoration of the great intimacy that 152 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: Jesus won for us. And the Spirit is meant to 153 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: be the conduit of that experience. So though Jesus has 154 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: a return to reign as king, establishing a garden city 155 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: that where Heaven is and Earth are reunited, I can 156 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: actually really live in and know the experience of that life. 157 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: I still await in many ways right now in the 158 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: present moment. It's not just something I'm waiting for. And 159 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit is the conduit 160 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: of God's presence within me that makes that possible. And 161 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: so what was going on in the temple is there 162 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 1: was this room, the Holy of Holies, in the innermost 163 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: Sanctuary Temple where God's presence dwelt, and there was access 164 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: to God's presence, but it was very limited and it 165 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: wasn't for everyone. And then over the course of Biblical history, 166 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: what you see is God getting closer and closer and closer, 167 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: kind of like a swell in the ocean that builds 168 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: and builds and builds, does it makes its way towards 169 00:11:55,480 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: the shore. And then Pentecost is the great crash in 170 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: Acts chapter two, when all of that comes to shore. 171 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: And now what was possible only for the high priest 172 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: only once a year and with much fear and trembling, 173 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: is possible for anyone and everyone who wants to receive it, 174 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 1: and not with fear and trembling, but with like joy 175 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: and confidence that we can storm into God's presence and 176 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: receive his presence, not just entering into the Holy of 177 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: Holies when we want, but our bodies becoming the Holy 178 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: of Holies, becoming the innermost sanctuary where God's presence dwells. 179 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: So essentially, what was the temple throughout Old Testament history 180 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: is the human body in the New Testament, which is 181 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,320 Speaker 1: and Jesus is a hinge that turns that, which is 182 00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: why he said in John chapter two, destroy this temple, 183 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: and I'll rebuild it in three days. And the temple 184 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: he was speaking of was his body, and then Jesus 185 00:12:57,520 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: in resurrection makes it possible for that to be true 186 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: for every last one of us. 187 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: Isn't that amazing? What a remarkable honor, and what a 188 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 2: vision of our life in Christ, not a not an 189 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 2: external thing, not a theoretical thing, but a lived and 190 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 2: embodied reality. And so that image of temple, it draws 191 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: me then to a chapter from the book of Ezekiel. 192 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: I'm actually reading in the forties chapter forties of Ezekiel 193 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: right now in my own reading scripture, and you unpacked 194 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 2: one of my favorite chapters in the whole Old Testament, 195 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:39,840 Speaker 2: really is that Ezekiel forty seven vision of Ezeel. And there, 196 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:45,319 Speaker 2: although the temple is obviously present, there's another image in 197 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 2: that vision of a river that flows. It starts as 198 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 2: a trickle, and it goes into the wilderness and it 199 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: ends in the dead sea. Can you talk about that 200 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: metaphor that image of a river and how that can 201 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 2: help us understand what it means to live in the 202 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 2: presence and power of God's spirit. 203 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would love to. You're speaking my language here. 204 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: This is so fun. So what you're stepping on here 205 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,559 Speaker 1: and what I'm attempting to do in the first section 206 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: of this book is to show people the Holy Spirit 207 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: is not some kind of like new found expression of 208 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: God that suddenly gets introduced in the Book of Act 209 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: and then becomes common in the New Testament letters. The 210 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: Holy Spirit is right at the heart of scripture, from Genesis, 211 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: chapter one, verse one all the way through. However, the 212 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: Holy Spirit is revealed primarily through metaphors, because the understanding 213 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: of and experience of the Spirit is this coming revelation. 214 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: And so throughout the prophets, what we have is this 215 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: pointing ahead to a time when there will be an 216 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: experience of God's presence that is so intimate, so available, 217 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: so powerful that I don't quite have language for it yet. 218 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: And so we have the prophets talking about that day 219 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: that experience in metaphor. So we have the metaphor of 220 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: the temple where God gives Israel these blueprints and they're 221 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: drawing up this building. And it isn't just about like 222 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: broach religious tradition. It's a way of saying God's doing 223 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: something that is so profoundly intimate that we don't know 224 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: how to describe it. But it's something like this building 225 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: where we have access into God's presence freely, and then 226 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: Ezekiel has this vision where he sees a trickle that 227 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: begins at the temple that flows east and it grows 228 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: into a river the further that it flows, and in 229 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: the river there are fish of every species, and lining 230 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: the river's banks there are trees, and it says that 231 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: the leaves of the trees the healing of the nation, 232 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: and the river eventually spills into the dead sea. And 233 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: the dead sea, you know, in the Mediterranean world, is 234 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: a sea that nothing lives in because the mineral and 235 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: salt content is far too high for anything to any 236 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: type of fish to live there. But when this river 237 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: spills into that dead place where nothing can live, it 238 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: comes to life, and fish of every species are swimming 239 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 1: and frolicking in what used to be a dead place. 240 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: So it's one of those chapters in the Bible that 241 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: you could read, like in your morning Devotion of Time 242 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: and be like, that's a touch weird. I guess it's 243 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: cool that some ancient prophet had this picture. But what 244 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: he's seeing is this promise of something that God is 245 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: doing and something that God's going to bring to fulfillment 246 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: that is so unfathomably good. He doesn't know how to 247 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 1: describe it. And this image is packed with past revelation, 248 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 1: like he's pulling on all this Hebrew history that would 249 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: have just topped to the Israelie imagination. There's probably lost 250 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: on most modern day Westerners. And he's pointing ahead to 251 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 1: these future promises. So, for instance, the temple is that 252 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 1: innermost sanctuary of God's presence. Twelfth, there's a river flowing 253 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: out of it of water, and the water is one 254 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: of the dominant biblical metaphors for the Holy Spirit. And 255 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 1: then within that water you have this fish of every concert. 256 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: It's not just Israel, but you've got all nations represented 257 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: through these fish. You have trees for the healing of 258 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: the nations. Healing is one of the signs of the Kingdom. 259 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: And again you have this what began in Israel, and 260 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: the temple is becoming a blessing and that spills into 261 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: the dead places in our world, bringing life, and that 262 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: became like a festival in Israel, were one of the 263 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: great festivals of the year. The priest would actually re 264 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 1: enact that vision by pouring cisterns of water down the 265 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: temple steps. It was kind of this enacted prayer. It's 266 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: really beautiful where all the people would gather as water 267 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: is poured down the temple steps as a way of 268 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: crying out praying to God's Then, would you fulfill Ezekiel's vision? 269 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: Would you make us into these kinds of people? Would 270 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: you pour out your presence on us in this sort 271 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: of way? And in John chapter seven, that very thing 272 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: is going on when Jesus pops up on the temple 273 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 1: steps with this interruption. It says, if anyone is thirsty, 274 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: come to me and drink, and streams of living water 275 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: will flow from within you. And John tells us by 276 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 1: this he meant the spirit whom those who believed in 277 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: him were later to receive. So Jesus isn't making up 278 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: a metaphor off the cuff about what the holy spirit 279 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: is like. Jesus is borrowing Ezekiel's metaphor, and he's essentially 280 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: saying what you're praying God would do right now. I 281 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 1: came here to give you. But it's even better than 282 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: you think. I'm not going to just pour my presence 283 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: through my temple. I want to pour my presence into you, 284 00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: so you become a temple through which this river flows 285 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: that brings full life to the most dead places in 286 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: the world. You are the source of this living river 287 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: that you're praying for, and the way you become that 288 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: is by coming to me and drinking. And so you 289 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: have this incredible picture again where Jesus is saying something 290 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: so profound about the gift of the Holy Spirit he's 291 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: come to bring. But it can be totally lost on 292 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: us if we haven't been tracking with this build metaphor 293 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: of water Ezekiel's river. What Jesus is interrupting and therefore 294 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: how profound this invitation is that Jesus is offering. 295 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 2: Isn't that I love that connection. I love that Jesus 296 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:23,840 Speaker 2: stands up. He basically invites thirsty people no water, lack 297 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:28,119 Speaker 2: of water, short on water, come to me and I 298 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 2: will make you the sort of person instead of being 299 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: a thirsty person, you will be a person through whom 300 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 2: rivers flow. And that just I love that image. So 301 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 2: a little later in the book, you talk about the 302 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 2: tendency that many of us have to sort of all 303 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 2: or nothing our experience of the spirit. I've had an 304 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 2: odd theological journey. I came to faith in a very 305 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 2: Jesus people sort of oriented community, I started ministry, though 306 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 2: in a very baptisty sort of I don't think those 307 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 2: gifts are for the church anymore. And then I got 308 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 2: introduced to spiritual formation, which is a different experience of 309 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: the ministry of the Spirit. And then I got trained. Oh, 310 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 2: and then I got I was touched by the Vineyard 311 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,679 Speaker 2: Renewal in the mid nineties, and then trained as a 312 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: spiritual director in a contemplative tradition. So I've had all 313 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 2: these different experiences. And so I've experienced the nothing vision 314 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: of the spirit, and I've experienced sort of some of 315 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: the best and some of the not so best everything visions. 316 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 2: So can you talk about this sort of all or 317 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: nothing tendency that we sometimes seem to have as it 318 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: relates to the spirit. 319 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's interesting what you would say. I 320 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:53,080 Speaker 1: think what has become very popular today is to be familiar, 321 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: highly familiar with great biblical teaching, which often comes out 322 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 1: of you know, the most extreme version would be like 323 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: actual cessationist traditions, which say, yes, God did give the 324 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: miraculous ministry of the Spirit as a power boost to 325 00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: get the church started, but God doesn't do that stuff 326 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: anymore because we now have the completed canon of the Bible, 327 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: and that is that has replaced the Holy Spirit. So 328 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 1: you have this kind of like father, son and Holy 329 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: Bible type expression. But that's becoming less and less common. 330 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: To be honest, there's very few churches that hold to that, 331 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: and it's extremely difficult, like you've got to do some 332 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: theological gymnastics to get to that conclusion. It's very difficult 333 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: to read that into the scripture. And so what is 334 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 1: more common is just great Bible teaching with very little 335 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: understanding of and I guess God speaks by his spirit also, 336 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: And then on the other side of the aisle, you 337 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: have great hunger for the spirit, but often with a 338 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: shallow biblical understanding, so that the pursuit of the spirit 339 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: can become less about what God wants to do in 340 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: the world and in me and partnering with that, and 341 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,120 Speaker 1: a lot more about what I want God to do 342 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: in the world and in me, and believing that if 343 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: I somehow spiritually grit my teeth tightly enough or show 344 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: God how much I want it, then I can get 345 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: him to act, which is also an unbiblical belief and 346 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:49,359 Speaker 1: can be extremely destructive. I've been really helped by the 347 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: desert fathers and mothers, who are you know, all the 348 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: way back in the third century, were kind of a 349 00:23:55,800 --> 00:24:01,200 Speaker 1: source of first renewal within the church near to Jesus. 350 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: And like any group of spiritual teachers, you could probably 351 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: find a couple weird ones in there, but in general 352 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:14,640 Speaker 1: these are like thoroughly orthodox teatures of the Bible who 353 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 1: also moved in the power of the spirit. But the 354 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: expression of the spirit looked less like drumming something up 355 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: and a whole lot more like quieting myself down to 356 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: access that which is deepest within me. So there wasn't 357 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 1: this like I think we often when we think about 358 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: the spirit really moving in power, it can look like 359 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 1: in our imaginations, like a massive gathering of people where 360 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: there's fog, machines, low lighting, and scynth padding behind an 361 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:57,240 Speaker 1: extremely gifted charismatic leader guiding us all into an experience. 362 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 1: For the desert fathers and mothers, the movement of spirit 363 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 1: looked a lot like silently waiting on God, attempting to 364 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:09,199 Speaker 1: attune my inner life to his reality. And it was 365 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: much gentler and very difficult to manipulate or contrive. And 366 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: so I've been really helped by leaning into an understanding 367 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: some from there. And so when people talk to me 368 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: about like one of the most frequent questions I'll get 369 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: when I teach, particularly teach other Christian leaders about the 370 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: ministry of the spirit, if it takes some like prophecy. 371 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: You know, we close our worship gatherings a British down 372 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: the church, I lead by everyone standing closing in prayer. 373 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: I'll pray, Come, Holy Spirit, which is probably the most 374 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: ancient prayer of the global church, and wait and then 375 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: just invite people to come and to receive prayer based 376 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: on prophetic invitations that come to mind in that moment. 377 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: And people will say, what are you doing in that 378 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: moment when you're waiting? And my answer is same thing 379 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: I do early in the morning alone on my front 380 00:26:16,080 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 1: porch when I pray to begin each day, just trying 381 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: to attune my inner life to God, trusting that I 382 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: hear Him in the same way that I do when 383 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: I'm reading scripture and something sticks out to me that day. 384 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm just trying to grow familiar with God's voice and 385 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,960 Speaker 1: then humbly live by it, or in this case, humbly 386 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 1: and buy others into it. So while man while there 387 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: is and can be a confusing variety of expressions of 388 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: the spirit alive in the church today. We also have 389 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: a rich tradition throughout church history where we can find 390 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:05,719 Speaker 1: models that I think match our cultural moments and also 391 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 1: kind of thread the needle between either really well meaning 392 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: but incomplete expressions of biblical spirituality or even just straight 393 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,440 Speaker 1: up toxic and manipulative, ego driven expressions that we want 394 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: to avoid. Church history has given us models worth following, 395 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 1: and not everyone is going to dig through church history. 396 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: I just have to be someone who nerds out on 397 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and so I'm attempting to serve 398 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:41,360 Speaker 1: as a translator to say, hey, what if, what if 399 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: we have something to learn from the third century that 400 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: applies profoundly to the twenty first. 401 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 2: Yes, I sort of like nerding out like you right now. 402 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 2: I've got a sort of personal like a spiritual clastic 403 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 2: study project. It's not for a degree. It just pulled 404 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 2: ten books offf my got a shelf over here, Florida's 405 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: Sealing from Desert Fathers down to more contemporary spiritual writers. 406 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 2: I've been sort of trying to live there a little 407 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 2: bit these days. Yeah, as I'm with you, I mean 408 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: God has God's spirit has been working for centuries, and 409 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 2: he has worked through women and through men who lived 410 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: and then spoke about their experience, and there's something for 411 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,000 Speaker 2: us to be received there. 412 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: Well, Tyler, is can I say one other thing on 413 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: that is? You know you mentioned the contemplative tradition, and 414 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: one thing that was really important to me in writing 415 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 1: this book is I wrote a chapter on redemptive suffering 416 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: because most people, when I think of the Holy Spirit, 417 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: think of things like supernatural or miraculous healing. But equally 418 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: the power of the Holy Spirit is the ability to 419 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,719 Speaker 1: attune to God amidst circumstances I would never choose, but 420 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 1: are true of my life today and know His sustaining 421 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: presence to me, redeeming those periods of my life and 422 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:15,120 Speaker 1: guiding me through the desert, so that even the deserts 423 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: I walk through are places I come out carrying treasures. 424 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: It's Psalm one twenty six. Those are so in tears 425 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: reap with shouts of joy, carrying sheaves with them, is 426 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: the final phrase of that psalm. So it's this picture 427 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: of I was journey through a desert, and I've come 428 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: out of the desert with the harvest, and even what 429 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: you were saying, you know about spiritual formation, like the 430 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 1: ability to become silent and attune myself to that which 431 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: is deepest, the ability to get in touch with my 432 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 1: true self and untangle the lies that I believe, the 433 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: getting at the most deeply ingrained sin patterns that express 434 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: themselves through my personality style and character flaws in patterns, 435 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: broken places in my marriage and parenting and postess relationships, 436 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:13,680 Speaker 1: and actually see those things slowly but surely untangled so 437 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: that I can live into the person I want to be. 438 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: All of that is the power of the Holy Spirit, 439 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: every bit as much as praying for someone with a 440 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: broken leg and seeing the bone mended in an instant. 441 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: Both of those are the power of the Holy Spirit. 442 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: And that is one of the unhelpful dichotomies that doesn't 443 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: exist throughout Church history or biblical history, but does seem 444 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: to exist in the mind of the modern day believer 445 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: that I'm trying to untangle, because what I think is 446 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 1: true is that you have these different streams that are 447 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: all experiencing the Holy Spirit in particular ways, and when 448 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: they're joined together, they can be something like Ezekiel's river, 449 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: where there's a rushing flow, and I'm simply trying to 450 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: join those together and say, hey, what you're describing is 451 00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: what you're describing, is what you're describing is what you're describing. 452 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: And we're all just using different terminology. But if these 453 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: streams can flow together, then we can take what's best 454 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: from each of these traditions. And I think I actually 455 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: live into the reality that Jesus was talking about when 456 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: he said that our inner lives can become the source 457 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 1: of this living river. 458 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more. I love that sort of universal 459 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,440 Speaker 2: vision of the body of Christ. These various traditions that 460 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 2: have captured something of the beauty of who God is 461 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: and how God works, and have lived it and have 462 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 2: been witnesses to the work of God in the world. Well, 463 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 2: I think that may be a good place to sort 464 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 2: of bring our conversation to a close. I so appreciate 465 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 2: the chance to be with you, Tyler. And again, so 466 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,760 Speaker 2: my guest has been Tyler stateon and we've been talking 467 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 2: about his book If Familiar Stranger. Thanks so much for 468 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 2: the time today, Feather. 469 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's wonderful to be with you. 470 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 2: You've been listening to the Unhurried Living podcast. If you 471 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 2: found today's episode helpful. Please subscribe now. 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