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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 2: I'm Dr.

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Speaker 3: James Spencer.

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Speaker 1: Through calm, thoughtful, theological discussions, Thinking Christian highlights the ways

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Speaker 1: God is working in the world and questions the underlying social, cultural,

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Speaker 1: and political assumptions that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now,

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Speaker 1: on to today's episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 3: Hey, everyone. Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian.

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Speaker 2: I'm Dr.

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Speaker 3: James Spencer, joined by my co-host, Dr. Ashish Varma.

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Speaker 1: And our special guest today is Vincent Baycoat. He is

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Speaker 1: professor of theology and director of the Center for Applied

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Speaker 1: Christian Ethics at Wheaton College. And we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking a little bit about theology and politics. as part

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Speaker 1: of our ongoing series to hopefully prepare you to think

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Speaker 1: well as the midterm elections come up. So I'm going

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Speaker 1: to pitch it to Ashish and let him ask the

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Speaker 1: first question today and excited for this conversation.

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Speaker 3: So Ashish, take it away.

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Speaker 4: Thanks, James. Yeah, well, first I want to say I'm

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Speaker 4: very excited. I see the gray in your hair and

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Speaker 4: I see the gray in my hair. And I remember

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Speaker 4: that we go back to when there was no gray

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Speaker 4: in my hair and far less in your hair. So

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Speaker 4: it's been a while, I guess that's saying.

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Speaker 5: You know, I mean, if we look closely, we see

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Speaker 5: that there's a little bit of brown hair trying to

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Speaker 5: hold on. But the pigments in my hair are diminished

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Speaker 5: around here.

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Speaker 4: It does that, it seems to, over time, right? This

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Speaker 4: is all to say that there's been some time that's passed.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 4: But it's a pleasure to have you here. Thank you.

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Speaker 4: vince was my i'm not sure how we called it

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Speaker 4: when i was in the phd program you were my

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Speaker 4: my student teaching supervisor i.

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Speaker 2: Guess yeah yeah i mean you were you were a

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Speaker 2: preceptor for us when we expanded uh the freshman theology

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Speaker 2: class to.

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Speaker 6: You know 100 plus students typically and so you you

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Speaker 6: were a group you were part of a trio of

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Speaker 6: students who did the precepting and did and did the

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Speaker 6: grading and and at least in my sections i you know,

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Speaker 6: make sure everybody had an opportunity to actually do some lecturing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, which was great. So it's great to have you here.

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Speaker 4: You've had a long interest in public or political theology

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Speaker 4: or both. You've written on the topic. Do you want

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Speaker 4: to maybe start off by helping us understand why do

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Speaker 4: you care about this topic?

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Speaker 2: I care about it for, you know, because I care

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Speaker 2: about rock and roll is really what it comes down to.

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Speaker 2: Because because this is the 80s here, and some could

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Speaker 2: say I was in my metal phase, if you will.

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Speaker 2: Not that the metal phase is gone, but a lot

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Speaker 2: of people in my Bible said it was kind of

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Speaker 2: a problem, me listening to groups like Iron Maiden, Motley

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Speaker 2: Crue and stuff. Hey, why are you listening to that music? Blah, blah, blah.

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Speaker 2: And it seemed to me from an intuitional level that

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Speaker 2: you could appreciate someone's artistry without wanting to be that

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Speaker 2: person that you can appreciate the good that is coming

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Speaker 2: from them while critiquing their lifestyle. I mean, using Motley

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Speaker 2: Crue as an example, very sleazy people, of course. But

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Speaker 2: the point wasn't being sleazy. The point was, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a group, right? I mean, so, but I didn't

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Speaker 2: have any theological language for that. And so, but it

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Speaker 2: always seemed to me that Christians ought to be able

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Speaker 2: to engage culture And that it's okay to do that,

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Speaker 2: that you're not worldly because you engage culture. And so if,

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Speaker 2: if you think about people that are more culture affirming

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Speaker 2: versus culture denying, I was around people that tended to

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Speaker 2: be more culture denying. And so really, whether it's music

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Speaker 2: and film, whether it's politics, whether it's business, whatever it is,

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Speaker 2: life beyond Sunday, uh, and how Christians ought to be

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Speaker 2: engaged in that as Christians, discerning that as Christians, has

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Speaker 2: been something that's been part of something I've cared about

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Speaker 2: since college. It wasn't really until I was in seminary

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Speaker 2: that I really began to get, I would say, significant

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Speaker 2: theological formation from my engagement with Abraham Kuyper. I heard

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Speaker 2: of Francis Schaeffer before I went to seminary. So that

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Speaker 2: was some... attention to that because Schaeffer was a culturally

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Speaker 2: engaging person. And that's really how it happened. And then

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Speaker 2: my dissertation was about the doctrine of common grace and

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Speaker 2: the Spirit's work in creation being the dynamic force, if

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Speaker 2: you will, of common grace, that common grace making possible

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Speaker 2: our ongoing engagement with the first command in Genesis 1.

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Speaker 2: So that And that command, God's never said that I

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Speaker 2: forget that. You know, Psalm 8 is a great example

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Speaker 2: of that. I mean, Psalm 8 can't be, gee, I

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Speaker 2: remember when God said we can engage the creation and

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Speaker 2: I praised you for what we had. Sorry, we don't

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Speaker 2: have it anymore. That's not the disposition of Psalm 8.

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Speaker 2: Psalm 8 is that we still are, God still as

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Speaker 2: human beings gave us this privilege and opportunity to be

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Speaker 2: the people that are stewarding the world. And so for me,

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Speaker 2: talking about that, when we have the agency for public engagement,

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Speaker 2: because everybody has had the same levels of agency around

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Speaker 2: the world, that, that responsibility and opportunity still remains for us.

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Speaker 2: And that certainly extends to politics as much as it

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Speaker 2: extends to how I'm thinking about film, culture, education, whatever

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Speaker 2: it is. And that, but that, that's still a culture. My,

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Speaker 2: my inclinations are to be a culture affirming Christian, that

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Speaker 2: culture affirming Christian doesn't mean anything goes. It means, uh,

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Speaker 2: But that I can recognize that there are things in

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Speaker 2: the world that come from non-Christians that I can appreciate,

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Speaker 2: that I can engage, that sometimes we can maybe be

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Speaker 2: persuasive to them sometimes. But also that Christians have an

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Speaker 2: obligation as Christians to participate in the world as people

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Speaker 2: who can help orient the world toward having, if you will,

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Speaker 2: at least being a little bit better. Hopefully a lot

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Speaker 2: better in some cases, but at least a little bit better.

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Speaker 2: And if you have the agency to do that, then

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Speaker 2: Christians ought to be doing that. And it ought to

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Speaker 2: emerge out of our theology rather than out of having

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Speaker 2: a kind of what I would say an ad hoc

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Speaker 2: approach to it, which I do think tends to be

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Speaker 2: the case with a lot of Christians. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: sometimes wonder if you took a survey of most evangelical

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Speaker 2: Christians in the United States and you asked them, why

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Speaker 2: should we be involved in politics and culture? From what

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Speaker 2: you believe, what is the basis for that? And what

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Speaker 2: informs how we ought to be going? going into the world,

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Speaker 2: how we ought to be discerning what we're doing in

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Speaker 2: the world, what orients us towards the issues that we

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Speaker 2: care about, what makes us sensitive to issues we may

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Speaker 2: not know about, but when somebody tells us that's an issue,

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Speaker 2: we recognize that it is an issue we should care about.

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Speaker 2: Those types of things. When it comes to that, my

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Speaker 2: sense is that most people cannot give you a theological

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Speaker 2: foundation for that. They can say, I'm a Christian, I

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Speaker 2: should care, I should be like Jesus or whatever. It's like, okay, great.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me what it is about being Christian

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Speaker 2: that makes you care, that orients you into the public?

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Speaker 2: What is your language for talking about what that posture is?

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Speaker 2: You know, how many people would use a language like stewardship,

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Speaker 2: for example, to talk about that in terms of the

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Speaker 2: way that we're thinking about engaging the world, as opposed to, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm an American, I'm a Christian, you know, we're in

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Speaker 2: this Judeo-Christian nation. So you're telling me these facts, but

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Speaker 2: are you telling me those facts in a way where

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Speaker 2: what you know about them in terms of theological basis,

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Speaker 2: that those are the things that are themselves the reason,

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Speaker 2: rather than you find yourself in an environment with political agency,

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Speaker 2: at least conversations about political agency. And then you're thinking

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Speaker 2: about being some kind of Christian who does something Christianly

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Speaker 2: in the world. And so to me, having that theological

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Speaker 2: foundation for that public engagement is really important.

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Speaker 4: That's great.

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Speaker 2: That may have been a longer answer than you were

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Speaker 2: looking for.

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Speaker 4: No, that was good. I was hoping for a long

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Speaker 4: answer because that gives you.

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Speaker 2: All these spurs.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think because the spurs that you gave us

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Speaker 4: to work off of here, I want to put a

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Speaker 4: bookmark in one of them in particular to come back to.

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Speaker 4: And that's the way that you were talking about engagement

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Speaker 4: in a way that seems broader than than the ways

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Speaker 4: that oftentimes we tend to think of political engagement. So

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Speaker 4: specifically the direction you want to take is where I

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Speaker 4: want to put the bookmark. If you don't mind, can

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Speaker 4: we talk at first, the way that you're thinking of

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Speaker 4: political to me sounds like an older, fuller, maybe even

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Speaker 4: more the way that Aristotle thought about the political citizen

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Speaker 4: sort of approaching engagement where it's not limited to, but

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Speaker 4: not exclusive against either. an engagement with the realm that

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Speaker 4: we tend to see of as politics.

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Speaker 3: Is that fair to say?

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Speaker 2: Sure. That's very fair to say. What I would say

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Speaker 2: is that what we call, what political life is a

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Speaker 2: species of our larger engagement of or management of the world.

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Speaker 2: I'm of the view that were there no fall, there

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Speaker 2: would still be political realities because as humans went on,

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Speaker 2: at some point people would have had to cooperate with

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Speaker 2: each other around public projects. instead of everybody having their

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Speaker 2: own way to get to what, you know, river or

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Speaker 2: wherever it is, eventually people would get together and say, hey,

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Speaker 2: let's band together and make a river. At some point

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Speaker 2: they would talk about how you're going to pay for this,

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Speaker 2: who's going to have the responsibility for this, who's going

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Speaker 2: to manage these things, and other forms of common life.

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Speaker 2: So that management of common life would happen regardless. We

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Speaker 2: think of politics in terms of the need to have

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Speaker 2: guardrails that need to have protection because post-fall, humans are

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Speaker 2: very good at taking advantage of other humans. And so

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Speaker 2: we need things in place in order for our life

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Speaker 2: to be at least relatively survivable, to have some kind

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Speaker 2: of public justice reality in place to say, hey, you

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Speaker 2: can do these things, you can't do these things. If

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Speaker 2: you do these things correctly, there could be consequences if

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Speaker 2: you harm people in certain ways. Or that in order

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Speaker 2: for people to be able to do what they would

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Speaker 2: like with their lives, we need to create a kind

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Speaker 2: of society that enables people to have the agency to

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Speaker 2: go about their lives without the fear of being attacked

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Speaker 2: all the time. In other words, all that's emerging out

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Speaker 2: of the presumption that when God gives humans the world

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Speaker 2: to manage, that big picture of what we would call

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Speaker 2: public life, and I'm calling public life life outside the

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Speaker 2: context of worship generally, that public life and the domains

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Speaker 2: we share with other people, that we have responsibility in

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Speaker 2: that domain. So that's really how I'm getting at it

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Speaker 2: when I'm thinking about this larger political reality. So I'm

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Speaker 2: thinking about it doctrinally more than philosophically. Right. Um, but obviously, uh,

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Speaker 2: I mean, it, it resonates with what you're talking about.

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Speaker 1: So if you were just to make a quick juxtaposition,

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Speaker 1: like when I think about this through scripture, you have

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Speaker 1: Romans 13, one through four, that's a little bit more

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Speaker 1: of the restraint of evil sort of vibe, right? Like

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Speaker 1: bad people do bad things. The government is there for justice.

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Speaker 1: But then I think back in the old Testament, Jethro's

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Speaker 1: advice to Moses was, to assign elders to manage the people.

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Speaker 1: It's a form of politics to some degree, but it

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Speaker 1: isn't responding necessarily to the evils of society. It's responding

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Speaker 1: to the people management, the societal management of society. And

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Speaker 1: so those two aspects of politics and others would certainly

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Speaker 1: even make an appearance in scripture if we're paying attention.

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Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, we all... We all belong somewhere,

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Speaker 2: and depending upon where you belong, you may have the

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Speaker 2: opportunity to be a person who has some active management.

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Speaker 2: You might run for mayor. You might run for town council.

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Speaker 2: You might run for the school board. You might run

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Speaker 2: for the Forest Preserve, or whatever it is. Those things

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Speaker 2: are available to you. Not if you're in North Korea. Right.

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Speaker 2: And not if you're not in the right family in

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Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia. Right. Not if you're part of the junta

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Speaker 2: in Myanmar. So, you know, everybody doesn't have the agency.

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Speaker 2: That's why I wanted to mention agency earlier. But when

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Speaker 2: you have a country like the United States, for all

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Speaker 2: the problems that we have right now, people still have

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Speaker 2: way more political agency than most people have ever had

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Speaker 2: in world history. And so... There's opportunity with that agency.

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Speaker 2: And that agency isn't just about necessarily what's happening in Washington, D.C.

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Speaker 2: What's happening in your town? What's happening in your county?

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Speaker 2: What's happening in your state? There are other domains, levels,

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Speaker 2: where people can participate in the management of public life.

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Speaker 2: Or at least you're paying attention to it and you

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Speaker 2: might vote in these local elections as opposed to only

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Speaker 2: voting locally. at the state or national level of elections.

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Speaker 2: You have a role as a citizen where, at the

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Speaker 2: very least, you can be involved in choosing those people.

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Speaker 2: You can communicate to those people. And so that's a

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Speaker 2: form of participation that, depending upon whatever political system you're in,

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Speaker 2: you can't assume that everybody has that.

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Speaker 4: I think that's an important detail that we often miss

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Speaker 4: when we're reading scripture. And we tend to make, in

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Speaker 4: the broad sense of we, we tend to make too

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Speaker 4: easy of steps to, the Bible says, Romans 13, 14. Therefore,

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Speaker 4: here's how we should act in the present. When I

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Speaker 4: think about someone like Paul, we've talked about before in

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Speaker 4: this podcast.

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Speaker 2: That.

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Speaker 4: Even as he can appeal to having Roman citizenship, he

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Speaker 4: has no real political agency in the sense of the

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Speaker 4: ability to bring about any sort of change. when he's

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Speaker 4: writing to Philemon and sending Onesimus back to him, he

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Speaker 4: has no ability to overcome social structures within the environment.

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Speaker 4: So he's now thinking in a real way from the margins.

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Speaker 4: To your point, that's not the case by and large

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Speaker 4: in the United States and for Christians. So what kind

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Speaker 4: of a challenge for you does that set up rather

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Speaker 4: than simple sorts of ways of thinking about, well, the

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Speaker 4: Bible says, attend to your government leaders as from the

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Speaker 4: Lord and respect them and honor them. To our situation

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Speaker 4: where there's a lot more at stake in terms of

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Speaker 4: our personal involvement. How does that change things for you?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think part of it is, it's interesting to

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Speaker 2: think about this. When people are talking about, whether they're

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Speaker 2: quoting Romans 13 or they're quoting 1 Peter 2, and

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Speaker 2: saying God puts those people in place, What are people

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Speaker 2: assuming in the original context about how those leaders got there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And when we think about, okay, the way our leaders

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Speaker 2: show up are not the way those leaders showed up

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Speaker 2: in the United States. And how, because the audiences that

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Speaker 2: Paul's writing to, none of these people are telling their kids,

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Speaker 2: you know, and one day you might be president of

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Speaker 2: the United States of America if you're an American citizen.

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Speaker 2: None of these people are, you can't imagine that. But,

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Speaker 2: you know, some kid somewhere is learning about the way

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Speaker 2: that things are in terms of our government in the

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Speaker 2: United States of America. And because some were the teaching siblings,

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Speaker 2: even if not everywhere. And when they're learning at some point,

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Speaker 2: somebody is saying, and maybe one of you will be

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Speaker 2: president one day. Now, obviously, most of the time those

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Speaker 2: teachers are lying. But the fact is, the reason they

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Speaker 2: say that is the citizen is can be the person

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Speaker 2: who has that managerial position. That big stewardship position. Really

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Speaker 2: that big service opportunity position. That's a very different reality

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Speaker 2: than you've got to be in the right family or

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Speaker 2: you have to get close to the right family to

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Speaker 2: play the game. Now that's the way it is in

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Speaker 2: a lot of other places around the world. But that's

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Speaker 2: not generally the way it is in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Because there's all these stories about how did this person

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Speaker 2: get there? And they didn't always get there because they

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Speaker 2: made all these connections with the people in charge. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: they got there in spite of those people. All that

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Speaker 2: to say is that we can still say that God

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Speaker 2: puts in place government for these purposes. And it's important

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Speaker 2: to have rulers, government officials. But there's been all kinds

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Speaker 2: of processes for how that's happened. And if you're in

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Speaker 2: an environment where there's more agency, because you're a participant

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Speaker 2: in that process, then that probably, I think what we

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Speaker 2: can presume faithfully is, however people are winding up in

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Speaker 2: those positions, we're not just passive. Because we don't, because

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Speaker 2: we're actually in a situation where people wind up in

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Speaker 2: those situations because they emerged from the citizens. And they

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Speaker 2: participated in that larger process, which if you're a citizen

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Speaker 2: and you take advantage of being a citizen, it's one

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Speaker 2: of the things you can do. If you think about

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Speaker 2: what's happening at First Peter, for example, where they have

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Speaker 2: about this much political agency, they're told to be good citizens, right?

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Speaker 2: And they're also told, you know, don't use your freedom

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Speaker 2: for indulgence, basically. So there's some kind of, at least

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Speaker 2: a little bit of agency they have, at least in

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Speaker 2: terms of the kind of people they're going to be,

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Speaker 2: which I guess means don't just join, you know, Honor

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Speaker 2: the king, but don't join the party of the people

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Speaker 2: that are living lives of debauchery. But if we're thinking

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Speaker 2: about a situation where you're not in that exilic reality,

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Speaker 2: then we have to say, I think, that there's forms

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Speaker 2: of Christian faithful participation that can include, okay, I'm in

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Speaker 2: a situation where I can write to the governor. I

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Speaker 2: can write to the president. I can write to the mayor.

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Speaker 2: I don't just say, okay, they're in place. I'm merely

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Speaker 2: a subject. I have more agencies. So, and I'm, and I'm,

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Speaker 2: and just by virtue of being a citizen, you might say,

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Speaker 2: and this is speculation, of course, if first Peter is

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Speaker 2: writing to people in the United States of America, then

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Speaker 2: they might be being told to be, okay, leaders are

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Speaker 2: in this place, etc., etc., but then they're being told,

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Speaker 2: be a good citizen. Be a good citizen doesn't mean

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Speaker 2: just let other people drive the bus. You're in a

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Speaker 2: place where your responsibility as a citizen actually includes a

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Speaker 2: way to seek the good of others by your participation

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Speaker 2: in the political system. That doesn't mean that everybody has

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Speaker 2: to run for office, but in other words, you have

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Speaker 2: the opportunity to do things like vote, and if you

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Speaker 2: vote for the right people, you might have a better

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Speaker 2: type of common good because you vote for better people

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Speaker 2: than worse people. And so that participation would be presumed

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Speaker 2: as opposed to participation being absolutely not presumed. In fact,

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Speaker 2: the opposite. In a situation like First Peter. And so

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Speaker 2: I think we have to take into account what's assumed

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Speaker 2: already about how you get leaders. The fact of leaders

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Speaker 2: is important. Merely being subject to them as if they

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Speaker 2: just showed up and it's just passed down from family

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Speaker 2: member to family member, or if people are killing off.

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Speaker 7: Each other, the people who replace the people that they kill,

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Speaker 7: they replace, whatever it is, then you're just subject to that.

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Speaker 2: But if you're in a country where it's like, hey,

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Speaker 2: you're a citizen, it could be you. In theory, then

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Speaker 2: there's already something about presuming that participation that I think

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Speaker 2: we should think about.

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Speaker 3: How do you think?

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Speaker 1: Like, I can remember growing up and not really knowing

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Speaker 1: who my parents were voting for. I knew they voted,

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Speaker 1: but it was a much more private thing back then.

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Speaker 1: And you didn't have the sort of public presentation of...

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Speaker 1: you know, statistics, evangelical Christians voted this way, or at

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Speaker 1: least it wasn't as in your face. How do you

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Speaker 1: think about that sort of, because now it becomes part

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Speaker 1: of our public witness, right? It becomes just like you

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Speaker 1: would judge a Senator or a legislator who's voting for

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Speaker 1: a particular law or not voting for a particular law.

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Speaker 1: It becomes part of their voting record. It feels like

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Speaker 1: we've been, we've gotten like sort of a public voting record.

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Speaker 1: I'm just interested to hear how you would think through that,

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Speaker 1: given the polarities and the vitriol that our political process

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Speaker 1: often raises.

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Speaker 2: Well, the first thing I would say is that, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's funny because my mom would never tell us who

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Speaker 2: she voted for. Yeah. I would say, Mom, who did

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Speaker 2: you vote for? None of your business.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think there are probably still people who

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Speaker 2: would say that, but... And also, I mean, I'm not

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Speaker 2: the kind of person, am I where I voted today?

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Speaker 7: That's all you're going to know. I'm not going to

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Speaker 7: tell you everything. I'm not going to give you a

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Speaker 7: rundown of what's on my ballot. But I think when

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Speaker 7: we think about things like 81%, perhaps.

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Speaker 2: That those are opportunities, I think, to inquire about Okay,

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Speaker 2: what is it that led to this 81%? Part of

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Speaker 2: my argument about why you get the 81% is Trump

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Speaker 2: was going against Hillary Clinton, not against someone like Joe Biden. Now, apparently,

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Speaker 2: you know, Biden was told by the operatives. Probably a

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Speaker 2: combination of it's her time and also even if it

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Speaker 2: was your time, you wouldn't win. Whereas I think after

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Speaker 2: Beau Biden died, he kind of had like a sympathy

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Speaker 2: vote that might have won it for him. But especially

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Speaker 2: if he was going against Trump. I mean, but they

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Speaker 2: didn't know that he was going to be going against

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Speaker 2: Trump when my time that he wasn't even doing this thing.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 2: So I said to my classes after Tuesday, Thursday class.

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Speaker 2: So Thursday, go to my class after Trump gets elected.

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Speaker 2: And I say, here's what you have to understand. Some

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Speaker 2: people are relieved and some people are devastated. Who are

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Speaker 2: the devastated are the people that are thinking about how

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Speaker 2: Trump announced himself using xenophobic language about rapists, thugs, all

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing. The other people that are relieved

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Speaker 2: are all the people that thought post Obergefell that there

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Speaker 2: was a gigantic progressive snowball at the top of a

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Speaker 2: mountain and that a Hillary Clinton guy elected. She's the

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Speaker 2: one appointing Supreme Court justices. She's the one that's going

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Speaker 2: to bring people who have traditional morality, if you will,

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Speaker 2: to heal, especially around sexuality. And that institutions like mine

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Speaker 2: were going to be either forced to go private to

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Speaker 2: maintain justice our positions around those things or we were

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Speaker 2: going to be forced to a lot of accommodations if

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Speaker 2: we were going to still be able to have state

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Speaker 2: funding and all those types of things and it was

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Speaker 2: that and so for i think for a certain percentage

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Speaker 2: of people someone who said i'll make a deal with

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Speaker 2: you was trump did say to certain christian leaders hillary

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Speaker 2: clinton met with no christian leaders at all yeah uh

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Speaker 2: and i mean such the miscalculations are on that are

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Speaker 2: just amazing but um But some people, I think, inside

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Speaker 2: the beltway types were really kind of enjoying what they

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Speaker 2: thought was a certain kind of momentum, and then that's

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Speaker 2: not what happened. But Trump makes a deal, and people think, okay,

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Speaker 2: he's going to do what we want. And if someone says,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to support you around the issues you want,

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Speaker 2: I'll make a deal with you, people chose... To either

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Speaker 2: not vote. Occasionally there are people who voted for like

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Speaker 2: Jill Stein or somebody. But some people voted for Hillary

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Speaker 2: because they just couldn't stomach Trump. But most of the people,

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Speaker 2: they're thinking cultural wars have been lost. A lot of

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Speaker 2: people have been articulating that narrative. And he may not

433
00:25:30,619 --> 00:25:32,910
Speaker 2: have been the person that I wanted. Some people did

434
00:25:32,950 --> 00:25:38,340
Speaker 2: want him. But at least he'll do something for us.

435
00:25:40,010 --> 00:25:41,890
Speaker 2: I mean, and I realize for some people, they're like,

436
00:25:41,990 --> 00:25:44,950
Speaker 2: I still don't understand how, et cetera, et cetera. Which

437
00:25:45,030 --> 00:25:47,310
Speaker 2: I want to say is, if you keep hearing that

438
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 2: basically we're all about to get steamrolled around this, and

439
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: we've been losing for the last few years anyway. Yeah.

440
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:02,400
Speaker 2: On all this stuff. I think some people are like,

441
00:26:02,420 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to vote for him. And then,

442
00:26:05,020 --> 00:26:08,620
Speaker 2: you know, some people, you know, there's just this interview

443
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,030
Speaker 2: with Tucker Carlson. where he talks about being in a

444
00:26:11,050 --> 00:26:13,350
Speaker 2: room with Donald Trump. And he said, it's like the

445
00:26:13,410 --> 00:26:19,050
Speaker 2: man has a spellbinding powers. And that's what I call

446
00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:21,350
Speaker 2: the apprentice version of Donald Trump versus the art of

447
00:26:21,369 --> 00:26:23,090
Speaker 2: the deal version of Donald Trump. The art of the

448
00:26:23,109 --> 00:26:26,790
Speaker 2: deal version of Donald Trump is you're boorish. You're a liar.

449
00:26:26,850 --> 00:26:29,210
Speaker 2: All this other kind of stuff. The apprentice version of

450
00:26:29,230 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: Donald Trump. I remember watching the show myself thinking he's

451
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,899
Speaker 2: just not, he's not the villain. It's Omarosa. It's other people.

452
00:26:35,980 --> 00:26:36,180
Speaker 7: Right.

453
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:41,510
Speaker 2: And he, The point being that, in fact, Tim Alberta

454
00:26:41,550 --> 00:26:43,790
Speaker 2: also said this, who wrote The Kingdom, Power, and the Glory.

455
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:46,590
Speaker 2: So when he was here, he was talking about being

456
00:26:46,630 --> 00:26:50,810
Speaker 2: in the room with Donald Trump. And depending upon which

457
00:26:50,869 --> 00:26:55,590
Speaker 2: version you get, it's easy for people around him to

458
00:26:55,630 --> 00:27:00,430
Speaker 2: think he's not that bad. Interesting. And also, if you

459
00:27:00,550 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: add to that, though, also just whatever kind of aura

460
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:06,420
Speaker 2: he has, because I remember Donna Brazile, a Democratic operative, saying,

461
00:27:06,930 --> 00:27:08,630
Speaker 2: There was no way Ron DeSantis was going to get

462
00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:10,710
Speaker 2: the nomination because he doesn't know how to work a room.

463
00:27:10,770 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: Donald Trump knows how to work a room. And so

464
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,660
Speaker 2: all I have to say is that sometimes when people

465
00:27:16,859 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 2: are saying, how could anybody ever vote for that guy?

466
00:27:19,619 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: And how did some of these Christians who were in

467
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:23,070
Speaker 2: the same room with him, why would they do it?

468
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: Because when they went in the room, they got mesmerized

469
00:27:26,140 --> 00:27:31,810
Speaker 2: and they remained so. And so you, I mean, I

470
00:27:31,850 --> 00:27:34,290
Speaker 2: think there are a lot of people that are, if

471
00:27:34,310 --> 00:27:37,010
Speaker 2: you will, kind of just caught up in a certain

472
00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:41,930
Speaker 2: you know aura we'll call it um but the point

473
00:27:41,970 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 2: is is that and then if you're in and then

474
00:27:45,380 --> 00:27:49,699
Speaker 2: pragmatically they're thinking about certain things being delivered to them

475
00:27:50,460 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: yeah and and and never mind everything that was said

476
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,060
Speaker 2: about character prior to 2016 because of the sense of

477
00:27:58,140 --> 00:28:04,470
Speaker 2: crisis prior going into 2016 yeah yeah so now i

478
00:28:04,490 --> 00:28:09,409
Speaker 2: didn't vote with trump okay so But the point is

479
00:28:09,450 --> 00:28:18,419
Speaker 2: that I think it's important to understand what the environment was.

480
00:28:18,540 --> 00:28:20,460
Speaker 2: So a lot of people, they were at least relieved

481
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,300
Speaker 2: that Trump won. Because it's like, okay, you know what?

482
00:28:24,660 --> 00:28:27,379
Speaker 2: We've been saying for years that we're up against it

483
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,109
Speaker 2: because we're evangelicals. We're really going to be up against

484
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,930
Speaker 2: it if she gets elected. And didn't you add to that,

485
00:28:32,990 --> 00:28:35,410
Speaker 2: by the way, I said to my class, I said,

486
00:28:35,430 --> 00:28:39,470
Speaker 2: for most white evangelicals, only an angelic visitation would have

487
00:28:39,490 --> 00:28:43,130
Speaker 2: made them vote for her. Because the image of Hillary

488
00:28:43,170 --> 00:28:46,910
Speaker 2: Clinton that lots of evangelicals had from the 90s when

489
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: she was the first lady, you know, all these people

490
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:51,940
Speaker 2: who are remembering whether it was a 60 Minutes interview

491
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,660
Speaker 2: or whatever it was, where she was talking about she

492
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,500
Speaker 2: wasn't going to be a traditional first lady, stand by

493
00:28:56,540 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: your man, all this other kind of stuff. Some people

494
00:28:58,820 --> 00:29:01,700
Speaker 2: were so turned off by that. And then on top

495
00:29:01,740 --> 00:29:03,930
Speaker 2: of that, people were thinking, And I think she's really

496
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:06,970
Speaker 2: this kind of feminist Marxist character, even though she was

497
00:29:07,010 --> 00:29:10,030
Speaker 2: a pretty mainstream secretary of state. None of that matters.

498
00:29:10,910 --> 00:29:13,390
Speaker 2: That initial impression stopped for a lot of people. And

499
00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:16,470
Speaker 2: so they were like, if you think I'm voting for her,

500
00:29:16,590 --> 00:29:18,830
Speaker 2: wait on it. It was kind of what they would say.

501
00:29:20,070 --> 00:29:24,130
Speaker 2: And so the point is, is that I think the

502
00:29:24,210 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: problem is, so even if everything that I said is

503
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 2: completely accurate, which I think is mostly accurate, I mean,

504
00:29:32,780 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: I'm not omniscient, so I could be missing something. But

505
00:29:39,450 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 2: when the public reputation of evangelicals prior to 2016 was

506
00:29:45,180 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: we wanted Bill Clinton to be impeached. And we kept

507
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: talking about character matters. And now you're equivocating about character.

508
00:29:55,520 --> 00:30:00,710
Speaker 2: And you have people saying things like it sounds like

509
00:30:01,390 --> 00:30:05,209
Speaker 2: you just like being around. You like finally being in

510
00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: the room with power. Yeah. And you, and, and, and,

511
00:30:08,860 --> 00:30:15,620
Speaker 2: and as long as things don't get too crazy, you'll be, you'll,

512
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,940
Speaker 2: you'll say you rather explain it away. Uh, I mean, you,

513
00:30:19,980 --> 00:30:22,300
Speaker 2: you won't say he's not a perfect, I mean, everybody

514
00:30:22,340 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 2: would say, well, yeah, he does things that make me nervous, whatever,

515
00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: but they would say, but yeah, but he's our guy

516
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:32,820
Speaker 2: that makes, that does those things. Yeah. And so I

517
00:30:32,860 --> 00:30:36,340
Speaker 2: think to other people and to some of the people

518
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,140
Speaker 2: who grew up in homes or churches where people were

519
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,590
Speaker 2: talking about character, massive dissonance around all of them.

520
00:30:42,610 --> 00:30:42,709
Speaker 6: Yeah.

521
00:30:42,930 --> 00:30:46,530
Speaker 2: So you get that reputational piece that then when people

522
00:30:46,590 --> 00:30:51,610
Speaker 2: are thinking about voting and voting being a dimension of witness,

523
00:30:52,370 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: and that voting, by the way, also happening by a

524
00:30:54,670 --> 00:30:57,979
Speaker 2: point when, because these began to happen at least after

525
00:30:57,980 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: 2005 for certain, You start hearing people saying, well, of course,

526
00:31:02,820 --> 00:31:05,540
Speaker 2: you know, you're going to vote Republican if you're a Christian,

527
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,830
Speaker 2: which obviously is for people who've never been in a

528
00:31:08,830 --> 00:31:12,489
Speaker 2: black neighborhood since 1965. I mean, you know, when all

529
00:31:12,530 --> 00:31:14,750
Speaker 2: the thing begins to change, because it's like, who do

530
00:31:14,770 --> 00:31:17,990
Speaker 2: you think most people in these black churches are voting for?

531
00:31:19,190 --> 00:31:22,390
Speaker 2: You probably have a few Republicans in those churches, but

532
00:31:22,430 --> 00:31:25,730
Speaker 2: not a whole lot. And I think a lot of

533
00:31:25,770 --> 00:31:29,050
Speaker 2: those people are authentic Christians. Those people aren't even on

534
00:31:29,090 --> 00:31:31,510
Speaker 2: the horizon when people are saying that. And it's because

535
00:31:31,550 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: people are thinking about sexuality and abortion. Yeah. And so

536
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:42,300
Speaker 2: all I have to say is that I think 2016

537
00:31:42,300 --> 00:31:46,719
Speaker 2: is when there's the presumption that if you're an evangelical,

538
00:31:46,810 --> 00:31:52,610
Speaker 2: you're voting for... I think with conservative Catholics, it's always

539
00:31:52,650 --> 00:31:55,030
Speaker 2: kind of been more divided because of the social thing.

540
00:31:55,390 --> 00:32:00,930
Speaker 2: But with evangelicals, It's like, well, since Reagan, at least,

541
00:32:00,950 --> 00:32:03,190
Speaker 2: it's like, well, you're going to mostly vote Republican, even

542
00:32:03,230 --> 00:32:06,670
Speaker 2: though you would have people that would explicitly be Democrats

543
00:32:06,710 --> 00:32:10,090
Speaker 2: for life, like in the 90s and in the early aughts.

544
00:32:10,190 --> 00:32:15,930
Speaker 2: But at some point, the presumption that these are just

545
00:32:15,970 --> 00:32:18,260
Speaker 2: the people who do that. And of course, here's another

546
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,500
Speaker 2: problem that's happening along with that. The assumption that evangelical

547
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: identity is more about those political commitments than about something

548
00:32:27,180 --> 00:32:33,470
Speaker 2: like the Bevington-Rodrell Act. Yeah. About the Biblicism, Conversionism, Activism, Crucicentrism,

549
00:32:33,490 --> 00:32:37,220
Speaker 2: all those things. Or what I call a Bible ecumenism, right?

550
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 2: Where Presbyterians, Lutherans, Baptists, and Anglicans and others, and Pentecostals

551
00:32:44,580 --> 00:32:46,530
Speaker 2: are all saying we're part of the same family, even

552
00:32:46,550 --> 00:32:49,110
Speaker 2: though we have massive disagreements about many other things. We

553
00:32:49,130 --> 00:32:52,710
Speaker 2: have nothing in common that we say we're family. That version,

554
00:32:53,250 --> 00:33:01,260
Speaker 2: that Bible ecumenist identity of evangelicalism, massively obscured by the

555
00:33:01,300 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 2: presumption that you're mainly talking about a voting law. Now,

556
00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: is that Karl Rove's fault? I mean, I don't know.

557
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:13,790
Speaker 2: Or the media taking evangelicals seriously because of their association

558
00:33:14,570 --> 00:33:18,310
Speaker 2: with Bush the Younger. Maybe you have Gerson and others

559
00:33:18,350 --> 00:33:21,050
Speaker 2: in the White House. Now you've got Primetime Live and

560
00:33:21,070 --> 00:33:23,430
Speaker 2: all these people interviewing people about evangelicals. Now, why they

561
00:33:23,490 --> 00:33:27,660
Speaker 2: interviewed Joe Laustein to talk about evangelicals on that program,

562
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,690
Speaker 2: I don't understand. But he was one of the people

563
00:33:30,730 --> 00:33:32,850
Speaker 2: they interviewed. I thought, you've got to be kidding. But hey,

564
00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:35,830
Speaker 2: big church, I guess, right? He wasn't the only one,

565
00:33:35,950 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 2: but that threw me off. I'm sorry, go ahead.

566
00:33:41,660 --> 00:33:43,060
Speaker 3: I was just going to say, it goes to your

567
00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:43,940
Speaker 3: early point.

568
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: We don't allow these ideas to emerge from our theology.

569
00:33:48,580 --> 00:33:52,020
Speaker 1: We're ad hoc-ing it, and then it opens us up

570
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:56,959
Speaker 1: to being defined politically as opposed to being defined theologically.

571
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: And so.

572
00:33:59,850 --> 00:34:02,330
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, when I've thought through this, I've always

573
00:34:02,910 --> 00:34:06,650
Speaker 1: argued people, look, our politics should emerge from discipleship. It

574
00:34:06,670 --> 00:34:10,089
Speaker 1: should be rooted within it. And so, you know, like

575
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,140
Speaker 1: if you don't do that, then you're just, it's wins, right?

576
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,060
Speaker 1: Like whatever political wins you're carrying and whatever seems to

577
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: be the right approach at this moment, you tend not

578
00:34:21,020 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: to see things holistically because the politics is inherently narrowing.

579
00:34:25,820 --> 00:34:26,450
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.

580
00:34:27,340 --> 00:34:29,820
Speaker 1: And that narrows you, and then you find Bible verses

581
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: and theologies that will support whatever agenda you're moving toward.

582
00:34:32,940 --> 00:34:36,509
Speaker 1: But theology has a way of widening you, not narrowing you.

583
00:34:37,070 --> 00:34:42,089
Speaker 2: Well, I think another reason that it happens is the

584
00:34:42,150 --> 00:34:46,790
Speaker 2: Biblicism that people do have is, to your point, what's

585
00:34:46,830 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 2: the verse that's helping me to support X, Y, or Z?

586
00:34:50,820 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 2: And it's really not about having a kind of systematic

587
00:34:55,180 --> 00:34:57,670
Speaker 2: way of thinking about things. And it's not about having

588
00:34:57,810 --> 00:35:00,509
Speaker 2: a clear connection between theology and ethics. The ethics is

589
00:35:00,570 --> 00:35:05,100
Speaker 2: about either a crisis that emerges for me personally, so

590
00:35:05,140 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 2: I care about it, or an authority figure I trust

591
00:35:09,380 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 2: tells me about something I should care about. And so

592
00:35:16,060 --> 00:35:19,989
Speaker 2: the issue is either on my doorstep because of some

593
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,410
Speaker 2: way it's close to me personally, or because it's put

594
00:35:23,450 --> 00:35:26,870
Speaker 2: on my doorstep by the people that I trust. yeah

595
00:35:27,630 --> 00:35:29,750
Speaker 2: and so i'll talk about those issues because hey these

596
00:35:29,770 --> 00:35:32,609
Speaker 2: are the things that we talk about why well because

597
00:35:33,170 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: an answer is almost because it's what we talk about

598
00:35:36,900 --> 00:35:40,819
Speaker 2: the answer because because no no hey it's what we've

599
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 2: been told well in 1970 for example whatever evangelicals were

600
00:35:45,460 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: thinking about in terms of ethics abortion was not the

601
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:52,569
Speaker 2: issue right yeah sexuality was divorce was an issue you

602
00:35:52,590 --> 00:35:58,620
Speaker 2: know um You know, I'm sure drugs were the issue.

603
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: Such a revolution was the issue. But the things that

604
00:36:04,020 --> 00:36:08,260
Speaker 2: became the issues, they get presented, okay, here's the issue

605
00:36:09,780 --> 00:36:13,339
Speaker 2: that we care about. And when it's what we care about,

606
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 2: even if somebody gives reasons for it, the point is

607
00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:17,300
Speaker 2: presented to you as a crisis.

608
00:36:17,980 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 6: Yes.

609
00:36:18,780 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 2: And then, again, you're trusting your leaders, arguably. here's the crisis.

610
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,820
Speaker 2: And my point isn't that they're not necessarily legitimate crises,

611
00:36:28,739 --> 00:36:32,500
Speaker 2: but just to put an obvious point on it, a

612
00:36:32,540 --> 00:36:34,060
Speaker 2: lot of these same people, if I said to you,

613
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:36,739
Speaker 2: do you realize that racism has been a crisis for

614
00:36:37,070 --> 00:36:40,810
Speaker 2: a couple of centuries? And when I bring it up

615
00:36:40,850 --> 00:36:44,029
Speaker 2: to you, you say that that's political and why are

616
00:36:44,050 --> 00:36:48,150
Speaker 2: you bringing it up? Or it's only about personal prejudice.

617
00:36:48,830 --> 00:36:51,250
Speaker 2: We shouldn't talk about that. Why are you being divisive

618
00:36:51,290 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 2: by bringing that up? I mean, It's like abortion is

619
00:36:53,380 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 2: not divisive. I mean, and on it goes. In other words,

620
00:37:01,020 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 2: it's not mattering because what's leading people to care about

621
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,550
Speaker 2: things is like, well, here are the things we care about.

622
00:37:08,570 --> 00:37:13,510
Speaker 2: Here are the things that we're committed to. You're making

623
00:37:13,530 --> 00:37:16,969
Speaker 2: it complicated if you're bringing race into this. Yes, it

624
00:37:17,030 --> 00:37:19,969
Speaker 2: is complicated. Do you know why? Because some people, you

625
00:37:19,989 --> 00:37:23,660
Speaker 2: talk about race and they're African-American, they're really mad. because

626
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 2: they've been like an impression cooker. Other people, strangely, they

627
00:37:29,219 --> 00:37:33,940
Speaker 2: also think it's an important issue, but they're just not mad. Yeah.

628
00:37:34,140 --> 00:37:37,890
Speaker 2: And so you can't just nail down how people can

629
00:37:37,950 --> 00:37:39,410
Speaker 2: talk about the same thing, but there are all these

630
00:37:39,469 --> 00:37:42,350
Speaker 2: differing emotions around it. Right. And they're telling you about

631
00:37:42,410 --> 00:37:45,489
Speaker 2: different experiences. Some people are talking about personal prejudices. Other

632
00:37:45,510 --> 00:37:50,090
Speaker 2: people are talking about systemic realities, et cetera. It's a

633
00:37:50,170 --> 00:37:55,750
Speaker 2: complicated thing. But you bring that up, and people are like,

634
00:37:59,110 --> 00:38:01,690
Speaker 2: why are you bringing that up? Can you show me

635
00:38:01,710 --> 00:38:05,740
Speaker 2: in the Bible why I should care about this? And

636
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: I think it just didn't get put on the radar

637
00:38:10,180 --> 00:38:14,200
Speaker 2: as one of the issues. And to the extent, maybe

638
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 2: for some, that it's a quote-unquote democratic issue, or the

639
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,030
Speaker 2: ways that it was being, the policy that was happening

640
00:38:20,050 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 2: around it was happening more from Democrats. For some people,

641
00:38:22,460 --> 00:38:26,739
Speaker 2: that was probably also a complicating factor, I imagine. Yeah. Interesting.

642
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:32,259
Speaker 2: The point is just that why are some issues the

643
00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:36,410
Speaker 2: issues that matter to people? It's not because the question

644
00:38:36,450 --> 00:38:40,210
Speaker 2: I'm asking is, all right, if somebody tells me that

645
00:38:40,250 --> 00:38:44,029
Speaker 2: something is an issue, and let's just say it's assisted suicide, which,

646
00:38:44,070 --> 00:38:45,390
Speaker 2: of course, we really do have to think about now,

647
00:38:45,430 --> 00:38:47,750
Speaker 2: I mean, because it's happened. I mean, more states are

648
00:38:47,770 --> 00:38:48,870
Speaker 2: talking about these laws.

649
00:38:49,310 --> 00:38:50,270
Speaker 3: Yeah.

650
00:38:51,690 --> 00:38:54,090
Speaker 2: Well, if I haven't thought a whole lot about it,

651
00:38:54,090 --> 00:38:55,509
Speaker 2: I might go, well, you know, the government needs to

652
00:38:55,650 --> 00:38:57,130
Speaker 2: tend to those things, but it's not one of the

653
00:38:57,170 --> 00:38:58,910
Speaker 2: things that we need to put on the front burner,

654
00:38:58,969 --> 00:39:03,049
Speaker 2: like we're putting abortion on the front burner. Well, and again,

655
00:39:03,070 --> 00:39:05,830
Speaker 2: if I'm thinking about it, because what seemed to be

656
00:39:06,070 --> 00:39:10,069
Speaker 2: our issues for whoever the we is, that's very different

657
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,100
Speaker 2: than if I'm oriented to ultimately care about those things

658
00:39:14,460 --> 00:39:15,940
Speaker 2: because of my theological anthropology.

659
00:39:16,580 --> 00:39:16,779
Speaker 3: Yeah.

660
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:25,140
Speaker 2: Because of The way that I think about love of neighbor,

661
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,570
Speaker 2: to say, oh, of course it makes sense. Of course

662
00:39:29,590 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 2: it's worth it. one of our issues, or it should

663
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: be an issue, even though it hasn't been an issue

664
00:39:36,180 --> 00:39:37,980
Speaker 2: for me. I see it as something I should at

665
00:39:38,020 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 2: least care about. But if I have the bifurcation between

666
00:39:40,860 --> 00:39:42,900
Speaker 2: theology and ethics, it's a much harder thing to do.

667
00:39:46,030 --> 00:39:49,090
Speaker 4: So there were a lot of strands there that I

668
00:39:49,110 --> 00:39:51,009
Speaker 4: think are really important. I don't mean that in a

669
00:39:51,030 --> 00:39:52,370
Speaker 4: bad way. I mean in a good way. I think

670
00:39:52,390 --> 00:39:56,589
Speaker 4: what you're showing is... Well, on one level, you gave

671
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,580
Speaker 4: the number of 81%. Sometimes it's been as high as 85%.

672
00:40:00,580 --> 00:40:04,540
Speaker 4: You pointed out that if you walk into a Black

673
00:40:04,580 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 4: evangelical church, you're not necessarily getting the same voting splits.

674
00:40:09,460 --> 00:40:11,760
Speaker 2: Right. Highly unlikely.

675
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:16,259
Speaker 4: Right. So the dynamic of race that's often seen to

676
00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:19,549
Speaker 4: be a political issue... and the way that many churches

677
00:40:19,590 --> 00:40:22,930
Speaker 4: and even institutes talk about it, and I have stories there,

678
00:40:23,150 --> 00:40:29,850
Speaker 4: we won't go into them, seems to be a way

679
00:40:29,890 --> 00:40:33,810
Speaker 4: of saying, let's not talk about race. Race is not

680
00:40:33,830 --> 00:40:35,870
Speaker 4: a real issue, it's being derived by politics. But on

681
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:39,670
Speaker 4: the other side, what has been overwhelmingly the issue for

682
00:40:39,690 --> 00:40:44,469
Speaker 4: white evangelical voting over the last 45 years is not

683
00:40:44,510 --> 00:40:47,930
Speaker 4: seen as a political issue. I said I wouldn't go

684
00:40:47,950 --> 00:40:51,270
Speaker 4: into stories. I'll give one quick story without names and places.

685
00:40:53,650 --> 00:40:55,770
Speaker 4: The majority of my work over the last decade has

686
00:40:55,830 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 4: been in issues of race and theology. And at an

687
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:05,500
Speaker 4: institute that I used to teach at, I was outright

688
00:41:05,580 --> 00:41:08,540
Speaker 4: called out for being politically motivated, even though I never

689
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,340
Speaker 4: once mentioned politics, never once mentioned elections of any form,

690
00:41:14,180 --> 00:41:16,029
Speaker 4: never once told students who to vote for or who

691
00:41:16,050 --> 00:41:19,700
Speaker 4: not to vote for. And yet the person who led

692
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:22,469
Speaker 4: the way in making that declaration to me sat in

693
00:41:22,489 --> 00:41:26,590
Speaker 4: a meeting with me and in a discussion of abortion stopped,

694
00:41:27,489 --> 00:41:31,510
Speaker 4: as an aside, proclaimed to the room, I don't understand

695
00:41:31,530 --> 00:41:35,210
Speaker 4: how anyone could vote for fill-in Democratic candidate.

696
00:41:35,230 --> 00:41:37,010
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course.

697
00:41:38,050 --> 00:41:40,379
Speaker 4: And I thought it was an interesting moment of, I'm

698
00:41:40,410 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 4: politically motivated, supposedly, because I'm talking about real issues in

699
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 4: race and theology. but you're not politically motivated even as

700
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 4: you deliberately bring up voting. So as a setup here,

701
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:57,820
Speaker 4: I think about many years ago at this point, I

702
00:41:57,820 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 4: don't even remember how long ago, you were the leader

703
00:42:00,900 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 4: or you're the panel host of a group that included

704
00:42:05,219 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 4: Randall Balmer. And the topic, as I recall, was on

705
00:42:09,580 --> 00:42:15,109
Speaker 4: evangelicals and politics. Randall Balmer was has been very outspoken

706
00:42:15,690 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 4: on especially, uh, the political motivations behind the ensconcing of

707
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:22,760
Speaker 4: abortion as the evangelical issue.

708
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 5: Yeah.

709
00:42:23,780 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 4: And he, he goes so far as to argue, I'm

710
00:42:26,300 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 4: inclined to say persuasively that it was a deliberate effort

711
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:34,219
Speaker 4: to distract from fallouts of the civil rights movement and

712
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:36,860
Speaker 4: to minimize sort of gains that were had, especially by

713
00:42:36,930 --> 00:42:40,469
Speaker 4: black Americans in that period. Do you have thoughts on that? Um,

714
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:43,180
Speaker 4: I realize there's a lot right there.

715
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,840
Speaker 2: Yes. Well, part of what Randy's talking about is the

716
00:42:45,890 --> 00:42:50,089
Speaker 2: original reason that, in a way, evangelicals became, at least

717
00:42:50,130 --> 00:42:52,350
Speaker 2: the larger populace, became more engaged. Because a lot of

718
00:42:52,370 --> 00:42:55,370
Speaker 2: people are saying evangelicals were always involved in politics. If

719
00:42:55,410 --> 00:42:58,510
Speaker 2: you mean evangelical leaders were always involved in politics, fine.

720
00:42:59,110 --> 00:43:01,210
Speaker 2: That's not what they were telling the laity. They were

721
00:43:01,230 --> 00:43:04,310
Speaker 2: telling the laity to stay out. The laity were getting

722
00:43:04,350 --> 00:43:10,420
Speaker 2: involved in the 70s, initially around Bob Jones' death. losing

723
00:43:10,460 --> 00:43:15,930
Speaker 2: this tax status because of the interracial dating policy. And

724
00:43:15,989 --> 00:43:19,730
Speaker 2: so that made people nervous about the government doing something

725
00:43:19,750 --> 00:43:25,950
Speaker 2: that kind of put the squeeze on Christian institutions. And

726
00:43:25,989 --> 00:43:27,320
Speaker 2: at some point people said, you know, it's not a

727
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:31,620
Speaker 2: good look. If that's our reason we're getting involved in politics,

728
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,460
Speaker 2: then it seems like we're getting involved in politics because

729
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,410
Speaker 2: we want to kind of be propping up you know,

730
00:43:39,469 --> 00:43:43,270
Speaker 2: kind of views of racial hierarchy and stuff. And it

731
00:43:43,290 --> 00:43:45,710
Speaker 2: may be that people also thought, look, I don't, they

732
00:43:45,730 --> 00:43:48,330
Speaker 2: may have personally not liked the policy. They cared about

733
00:43:48,370 --> 00:43:52,009
Speaker 2: what was happening with institutions, et cetera. But so it

734
00:43:52,130 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 2: really winds up, it winds up happening that they change

735
00:43:55,390 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 2: it to abortion because of, I can't remember what, Paul

736
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,180
Speaker 2: Weirich was the one who said that they should make

737
00:44:04,219 --> 00:44:06,379
Speaker 2: that change, but they made that change. And then that

738
00:44:06,420 --> 00:44:12,790
Speaker 2: became the issue really. I don't know how much of

739
00:44:13,070 --> 00:44:20,590
Speaker 2: the effort was actively trying to obscure or push against

740
00:44:22,610 --> 00:44:25,330
Speaker 2: things that were happening in the civil rights movement. I

741
00:44:25,350 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 2: would say, I think, for a lot of white evangelicals,

742
00:44:30,340 --> 00:44:32,960
Speaker 2: there are probably a lot of people of goodwill that

743
00:44:34,940 --> 00:44:39,730
Speaker 2: just didn't know what to do about a changing world

744
00:44:39,770 --> 00:44:42,810
Speaker 2: when you had these assumptions about things and now you've

745
00:44:42,830 --> 00:44:47,890
Speaker 2: got to take more seriously. The law is saying you can't,

746
00:44:48,290 --> 00:44:50,570
Speaker 2: you know, hey, we're pushing against discrimination in certain ways.

747
00:44:52,260 --> 00:44:57,100
Speaker 2: I think for a lot of people, if your formation

748
00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:05,279
Speaker 2: has not really told you that actually caring about every

749
00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:09,150
Speaker 2: human being in practice, is more than just singing a

750
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,589
Speaker 2: song about we're all in the same family. And that

751
00:45:12,630 --> 00:45:14,590
Speaker 2: you really have to think about what that means. And

752
00:45:14,630 --> 00:45:16,210
Speaker 2: of course, if you start thinking about what that means,

753
00:45:16,270 --> 00:45:19,330
Speaker 2: then you have to start thinking about one, you're arguably

754
00:45:19,350 --> 00:45:22,430
Speaker 2: state of your own heart, but second, uh, the way

755
00:45:22,469 --> 00:45:26,859
Speaker 2: that you've kind of organized your life where when you

756
00:45:26,900 --> 00:45:30,859
Speaker 2: wanted to, you could hang around minorities. You didn't want to,

757
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,300
Speaker 2: you could almost act like they didn't exist. Um, And remember,

758
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,170
Speaker 2: act like they exist. It's not because you're trying to

759
00:45:37,250 --> 00:45:40,390
Speaker 2: erase them. It's just that your ordinary life just doesn't

760
00:45:40,510 --> 00:45:46,610
Speaker 2: include taking into consideration the circumstances of people. And now

761
00:45:46,650 --> 00:45:49,029
Speaker 2: you've got to take into consideration things that maybe you

762
00:45:49,870 --> 00:45:52,969
Speaker 2: didn't have to before. And for some people, that's an

763
00:45:53,010 --> 00:45:54,900
Speaker 2: extremely uncomfortable thing because people don't know what to do

764
00:45:54,940 --> 00:45:59,140
Speaker 2: about it. And of course, and also if you're used

765
00:45:59,180 --> 00:46:02,710
Speaker 2: to kind of managing things and being in charge And

766
00:46:02,790 --> 00:46:04,770
Speaker 2: you discover you don't have any tools in the toolbox

767
00:46:04,790 --> 00:46:07,870
Speaker 2: for this thing. You know, there's going to be either

768
00:46:08,010 --> 00:46:12,629
Speaker 2: apathy or pushback, I think. And so I think for

769
00:46:12,650 --> 00:46:14,790
Speaker 2: a lot of people, I think that that's kind of

770
00:46:14,850 --> 00:46:19,989
Speaker 2: part of the circumstance. I mean, I think, you know,

771
00:46:22,070 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 2: you know, I've done this documentary about black evangelicals called

772
00:46:24,820 --> 00:46:29,820
Speaker 2: Black Plus Evangelical. And in one of the interviews I

773
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,630
Speaker 2: did with Bill Pinnell and Carl Ellis, and it's in

774
00:46:33,670 --> 00:46:37,609
Speaker 2: the film. This is a year or two, I think,

775
00:46:37,730 --> 00:46:42,209
Speaker 2: after the Skinner speech in Urbana in 1970. At some point,

776
00:46:42,230 --> 00:46:46,339
Speaker 2: somebody says to Penel, and I guess to others, you

777
00:46:46,380 --> 00:46:47,980
Speaker 2: need to understand that there are people who want you

778
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:57,880
Speaker 2: to succeed, but not too well. Because, you know, I

779
00:46:57,900 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 2: think it was Penel who said this. when Skinner makes

780
00:47:00,820 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 2: this address in the 1970 Urbana conference, okay, you have

781
00:47:06,940 --> 00:47:11,899
Speaker 2: more black students there than you did in 67. But still,

782
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,060
Speaker 2: you're not talking about like a thousand students. You're not

783
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:19,100
Speaker 2: even talking about 500. And in this auditorium, in this stadium, this,

784
00:47:19,260 --> 00:47:28,220
Speaker 2: you know, basketball arena, you're getting this raucous applause from

785
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 2: at the end of Skinner's Address for mostly white kids.

786
00:47:35,030 --> 00:47:41,270
Speaker 2: And so it's crazy, right? It's like, what? What's going on? And,

787
00:47:41,310 --> 00:47:43,810
Speaker 2: you know, a message that ends with the liberator has come.

788
00:47:45,890 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 2: And so that was very unsettling to some people because

789
00:47:52,260 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: they didn't know, well, what does that mean? You know,

790
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 2: what are the implications of that? And my sense is

791
00:48:00,700 --> 00:48:08,630
Speaker 2: that it's more the uncertainty about what that means and

792
00:48:08,969 --> 00:48:13,310
Speaker 2: what ways that that creates alterations of a status quo

793
00:48:14,370 --> 00:48:20,469
Speaker 2: that really makes people nervous because, I mean, people just

794
00:48:20,550 --> 00:48:23,700
Speaker 2: don't know what that reality is going to be. And

795
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:25,819
Speaker 2: maybe for some of those people, they're thinking, I kind

796
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,020
Speaker 2: of like the reality that we have and I also

797
00:48:28,060 --> 00:48:31,450
Speaker 2: like being in charge. Can we just keep doing things

798
00:48:31,650 --> 00:48:35,510
Speaker 2: this way? And it's great to care about your things,

799
00:48:35,650 --> 00:48:39,140
Speaker 2: but still let us run everything. And let us tell

800
00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: you what to do. And for some people, it's just

801
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:50,740
Speaker 2: hard to give that up. And for other people, I

802
00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,580
Speaker 2: don't think they know what to do in terms of facing...

803
00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:58,820
Speaker 2: the ugly realities of the history of race and then

804
00:48:59,219 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 2: trying to actually be part of a witness that, where

805
00:49:05,219 --> 00:49:09,339
Speaker 2: at least Christians are in pursuit of a society that

806
00:49:09,380 --> 00:49:15,410
Speaker 2: makes things better. That's a complicated thing, I think, for people.

807
00:49:15,510 --> 00:49:19,469
Speaker 2: Because if you don't, I think with anyone, if you

808
00:49:19,489 --> 00:49:23,049
Speaker 2: get in a situation where you have this uncertainty, then

809
00:49:23,070 --> 00:49:26,109
Speaker 2: you're probably going to default to certain things to help

810
00:49:26,150 --> 00:49:30,430
Speaker 2: you keep the situation in control. The tendency is not

811
00:49:30,469 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 2: going to be, let me dive into the discomfort. And

812
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,969
Speaker 2: in diving into this discomfort... I don't know what this

813
00:49:38,010 --> 00:49:40,260
Speaker 2: is going to look like, but it's way better for

814
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:45,740
Speaker 2: the kingdom witness. I mean, to me, that is a very,

815
00:49:45,780 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: it could be a very exceptional response for anyone. The tendency,

816
00:49:49,620 --> 00:49:52,419
Speaker 2: I think, is more to say, can I just find

817
00:49:52,460 --> 00:49:54,580
Speaker 2: a way for this to make me still remain kind

818
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 2: of comfortable rather than to see this discomfort as a

819
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:03,250
Speaker 2: doorway into something greater. Some people do step into that doorway, but...

820
00:50:03,980 --> 00:50:06,140
Speaker 2: Other people, it winds up being complicated. And then other

821
00:50:06,180 --> 00:50:08,960
Speaker 2: people that did step into it sometimes, it was more

822
00:50:09,020 --> 00:50:13,580
Speaker 2: complicated than they anticipated. And it just becomes, to my view,

823
00:50:13,780 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: unsurprisingly messy because caring about, say, reconciliation, diversity, whatever language

824
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,779
Speaker 2: you use, the fact that I care about that does

825
00:50:23,820 --> 00:50:27,980
Speaker 2: not give me the sanctification and competence to execute that. Right?

826
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:32,490
Speaker 2: I think a lot of times people desire that. things

827
00:50:32,530 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 2: to be better around race and culture. I think sometimes

828
00:50:36,020 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 2: there's this idea that it shouldn't be so hard if

829
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:40,859
Speaker 2: we all care about it. It's like, yeah, but you're

830
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:44,660
Speaker 2: all still people who are on the way. And you're

831
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 2: also on the way in probably ways you don't even recognize.

832
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,390
Speaker 2: And all that stuff is going to show up when

833
00:50:50,410 --> 00:50:55,930
Speaker 2: you're trying to move into this thing that is so

834
00:50:56,090 --> 00:50:59,350
Speaker 2: antithetical to the way that most ways humans have lived

835
00:50:59,370 --> 00:51:02,590
Speaker 2: in world history, which is, hey, We're over here. You're

836
00:51:02,630 --> 00:51:05,969
Speaker 2: over there. Maybe we have a truce or maybe we

837
00:51:06,010 --> 00:51:09,950
Speaker 2: have a war. Yeah. I mean, there's also the, let's

838
00:51:10,030 --> 00:51:12,590
Speaker 2: all have, you know, really live together and live and

839
00:51:12,630 --> 00:51:13,190
Speaker 2: work on doing it.

840
00:51:13,210 --> 00:51:16,940
Speaker 1: Well, this might be a good time to pivot to Davison,

841
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,020
Speaker 1: but I, I think too, there's these sort of structural

842
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:21,340
Speaker 1: elements that sort of catches.

843
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Right.

844
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: And, and I think that on some level, people don't

845
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,620
Speaker 1: want to do the small things because they don't feel

846
00:51:31,660 --> 00:51:34,660
Speaker 1: like it has an effect. But if we try to

847
00:51:34,700 --> 00:51:38,770
Speaker 1: do the big things, we were working constantly. It feels

848
00:51:38,790 --> 00:51:41,270
Speaker 1: like against machinery that we are never going to beat.

849
00:51:41,969 --> 00:51:44,549
Speaker 1: And so there's this sort of inertia that kicks in

850
00:51:44,650 --> 00:51:46,550
Speaker 1: where it's like, I don't think the small things matter.

851
00:51:46,570 --> 00:51:48,130
Speaker 1: And I don't think I can do the big things

852
00:51:48,770 --> 00:51:51,650
Speaker 1: that there's these, you know, there's that sort of start

853
00:51:51,690 --> 00:51:53,390
Speaker 1: and stop of it. If you know what I mean,

854
00:51:54,210 --> 00:51:55,820
Speaker 1: that I think is really interesting.

855
00:51:56,330 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: I don't know about that quite that way, but no,

856
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,860
Speaker 2: I think that's really helpful.

857
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:06,379
Speaker 1: It's an old consulting trick. When I go into institutions,

858
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,770
Speaker 1: I'd always give them near-term things that they could do

859
00:52:08,830 --> 00:52:13,990
Speaker 1: without putting any money toward anything because it kick-started the momentum.

860
00:52:14,730 --> 00:52:15,970
Speaker 3: They could start to see results.

861
00:52:16,050 --> 00:52:18,810
Speaker 1: They could start to actually get some traction. And once

862
00:52:18,830 --> 00:52:21,090
Speaker 1: they started getting that traction, then it was easier to

863
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,380
Speaker 1: do something like midterm where they might have to put

864
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:26,180
Speaker 1: a little money into it, you know, in longterm where

865
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,940
Speaker 1: they might have to transform the institution toward it.

866
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:30,339
Speaker 6: Right.

867
00:52:30,700 --> 00:52:32,960
Speaker 3: But that's what I find most difficult.

868
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: I think with people is they, they get, there isn't

869
00:52:38,140 --> 00:52:40,410
Speaker 1: a small thing that seems like.

870
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:41,210
Speaker 3: It's worth doing.

871
00:52:41,230 --> 00:52:44,500
Speaker 1: And, and I don't mean that in a, you know,

872
00:52:44,540 --> 00:52:46,859
Speaker 1: really horrible way, but it doesn't feel like it's having

873
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: a bigger effect. I should say it like that small

874
00:52:49,580 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 1: thing that doesn't seem like it's having a bigger effect.

875
00:52:51,739 --> 00:52:54,140
Speaker 1: And so you, you start to feel that sort of

876
00:52:54,180 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: futility of even bothering.

877
00:52:56,820 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

878
00:52:57,380 --> 00:52:57,580
Speaker 2: Yeah.

879
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,920
Speaker 1: And then we default to leaving it to the politicians

880
00:53:00,980 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: and the leaders and all those kinds of things, which again, I,

881
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,180
Speaker 1: I haven't read Davidson in a long time. So correct

882
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,700
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong, but in part, that's what I

883
00:53:09,780 --> 00:53:14,430
Speaker 1: feel like my problem with Davidson is that part of Yeah.

884
00:53:14,489 --> 00:53:14,859
Speaker 4: Yeah.

885
00:53:14,910 --> 00:53:16,339
Speaker 3: Sorry. Yeah.

886
00:53:16,620 --> 00:53:22,180
Speaker 1: That's my problem with it. It's almost like it's not sociologically.

887
00:53:22,219 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: I understand where he's coming from, but just sort of psychologically,

888
00:53:25,719 --> 00:53:28,339
Speaker 1: I think he's missing some things. And certainly I think

889
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:32,500
Speaker 1: theologically he's a little off. So I'll just leave that

890
00:53:32,540 --> 00:53:33,180
Speaker 1: as a touch point.

891
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think the small interesting thing about the small

892
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 2: things part is I do wonder how much the small

893
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 2: things part is almost anti-American. What I mean is.

894
00:53:43,620 --> 00:53:44,580
Speaker 3: That's a great point.

895
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,479
Speaker 2: Because you and I, we like to go big. We

896
00:53:47,580 --> 00:53:53,180
Speaker 2: like to go big. It's like, what story are you

897
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 2: going to tell when you go, you know, it really

898
00:53:56,340 --> 00:54:01,630
Speaker 2: was about the incrementalism that did it for us. That's

899
00:54:02,270 --> 00:54:03,109
Speaker 2: how we got here.

900
00:54:03,570 --> 00:54:04,790
Speaker 3: Let me tell you about the 999th step. It was

901
00:54:04,810 --> 00:54:05,430
Speaker 3: really crucial.

902
00:54:05,670 --> 00:54:12,860
Speaker 2: Everybody's just like... That's very different than a story where,

903
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:17,620
Speaker 2: and then, you know, if somebody said, either they start

904
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: with a little step, they go, you know, and six

905
00:54:19,219 --> 00:54:23,020
Speaker 2: months later, boom, this many people were doing this, right?

906
00:54:23,380 --> 00:54:23,819
Speaker 3: That's right.

907
00:54:23,900 --> 00:54:26,060
Speaker 2: And it gives the impression of like a revival type

908
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:33,010
Speaker 2: of event happened where, look, voila, ladies and gentlemen. Right.

909
00:54:33,790 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 2: And it all happened because they all made one decision. Yeah.

910
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:42,819
Speaker 2: Maybe there's one decision and look at all this stuff. Listen, spectacular,

911
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:43,180
Speaker 2: isn't it?

912
00:54:43,820 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: And the reason we all love watching highlights of Steph

913
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:48,279
Speaker 1: Curry and never want to watch him practice, you know,

914
00:54:48,300 --> 00:54:51,040
Speaker 1: shooting his thousand basketballs in practice. It's like, that's what

915
00:54:51,060 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: it takes, but that's not what we want to see.

916
00:54:53,260 --> 00:54:54,860
Speaker 3: Exactly.

917
00:54:54,989 --> 00:54:59,670
Speaker 2: Exactly. I think with Hunter's book, the attraction of Hunter's

918
00:54:59,690 --> 00:55:03,650
Speaker 2: book was, I think it dialed back for some people,

919
00:55:03,710 --> 00:55:08,140
Speaker 2: the fact of needing to make a big change. in

920
00:55:08,180 --> 00:55:10,379
Speaker 2: order for Christians to do something. And also you have

921
00:55:10,420 --> 00:55:13,779
Speaker 2: more Christians all of a sudden in the late 90s

922
00:55:13,780 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 2: starting to talk about, we ought to be involved in culture,

923
00:55:15,660 --> 00:55:20,850
Speaker 2: we ought to be thinking about transformation. And I think

924
00:55:20,870 --> 00:55:24,050
Speaker 2: there's this way, and maybe it started more with missions

925
00:55:24,090 --> 00:55:26,950
Speaker 2: than with politics and stuff, but among evangelicals, there are

926
00:55:26,969 --> 00:55:30,700
Speaker 2: these big, massive things that we need to do for God.

927
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 2: And so I think a lot of people read Hunter

928
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,969
Speaker 2: and thought, okay, you know, one of them takes a

929
00:55:39,010 --> 00:55:40,989
Speaker 2: load off of trying to, do I need to do

930
00:55:41,030 --> 00:55:44,529
Speaker 2: some big spectacular changing the world thing to do something significant?

931
00:55:45,660 --> 00:55:47,299
Speaker 2: And I think they also probably picked up on the

932
00:55:47,340 --> 00:55:51,759
Speaker 2: fact of, and do I have to make people my

933
00:55:51,820 --> 00:55:57,500
Speaker 2: enemies in order to accomplish it, accomplish this? Especially if

934
00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 2: the people that you're talking about are people that I know.

935
00:55:59,580 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 2: And it's like, they're not, I don't, I don't have

936
00:56:02,260 --> 00:56:05,710
Speaker 2: to be enemies. Like a certain nerd was told me

937
00:56:05,810 --> 00:56:08,710
Speaker 2: that they're, they're the people that we need to overcome

938
00:56:08,810 --> 00:56:13,180
Speaker 2: or beat or whatever. Um, and, and, and obviously there's

939
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:18,400
Speaker 2: an understandable and proper attraction to saying, if we're going

940
00:56:18,420 --> 00:56:20,840
Speaker 2: to be like Jesus to people, we can't be making

941
00:56:20,860 --> 00:56:25,700
Speaker 2: them enemies or fundamentally treating them like enemies. Who's going

942
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:32,569
Speaker 2: to disagree with that? My hesitation about Hunter's work with

943
00:56:32,590 --> 00:56:34,850
Speaker 2: the way that it all kind of lands is on

944
00:56:35,310 --> 00:56:38,759
Speaker 2: the one hand, he, he, regards the way that most

945
00:56:38,820 --> 00:56:42,660
Speaker 2: evangelicals were going to seek change as you mainly get

946
00:56:42,700 --> 00:56:46,350
Speaker 2: change in society through political means. His argument was that

947
00:56:46,370 --> 00:56:50,330
Speaker 2: it happens more by these networks of social elites. It's

948
00:56:50,350 --> 00:56:51,590
Speaker 2: almost like, hey, if you get the right people in

949
00:56:51,610 --> 00:56:54,370
Speaker 2: the room, those are the decision makers. That's how change happens.

950
00:56:55,330 --> 00:56:59,290
Speaker 2: I mean, that's true to that, obviously, but it doesn't

951
00:57:00,350 --> 00:57:02,589
Speaker 2: attend to the way that sometimes you do have these

952
00:57:02,660 --> 00:57:06,460
Speaker 2: grassroots realities that get to the movers and shakers, but

953
00:57:06,500 --> 00:57:09,219
Speaker 2: they started it. The grassroots played a big role with this.

954
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:16,370
Speaker 2: I think for someone like myself, the biggest problem was

955
00:57:16,930 --> 00:57:23,290
Speaker 2: that there's a false dichotomy between choosing a big spectacular

956
00:57:23,350 --> 00:57:31,380
Speaker 2: thing and incremental actions of faithful presence that might make

957
00:57:31,420 --> 00:57:34,980
Speaker 2: things better. Because everybody doesn't have the luxury of the

958
00:57:35,020 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 2: incremental thing. And some people, they really, they want a

959
00:57:43,380 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 2: significant change in circumstance to happen around something political, something environmental,

960
00:57:48,860 --> 00:57:55,030
Speaker 2: something cultural, whatever it is. And so they're hoping that

961
00:57:55,220 --> 00:57:59,090
Speaker 2: there are ways that change can occur. And there's the

962
00:57:59,130 --> 00:58:01,350
Speaker 2: whole question about whether Christians should seek that. And my

963
00:58:01,370 --> 00:58:03,710
Speaker 2: argument would be Christians should seek that as long as

964
00:58:03,730 --> 00:58:06,830
Speaker 2: they do it with humility and not with a kind of,

965
00:58:07,790 --> 00:58:10,750
Speaker 2: mindset of that. I see so clearly that when we

966
00:58:10,790 --> 00:58:13,640
Speaker 2: do this, we really will have a realized eschatological society.

967
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:16,580
Speaker 2: We've got way too many people trying to that one,

968
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:19,640
Speaker 2: and they all kind of wind up in the same categories.

969
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,459
Speaker 2: And yet another group of people who thought that they

970
00:58:22,500 --> 00:58:25,100
Speaker 2: would bring the fullness of the kingdom, and then we

971
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:29,910
Speaker 2: saw that they were just wrong. Hunter also says at

972
00:58:30,290 --> 00:58:33,950
Speaker 2: the end that for some people, their way of wanting

973
00:58:33,990 --> 00:58:35,470
Speaker 2: to change the world is that the world can be

974
00:58:35,530 --> 00:58:40,010
Speaker 2: managed And also that if you think that you can

975
00:58:40,050 --> 00:58:42,890
Speaker 2: change the world, that there's this way that your mind

976
00:58:42,980 --> 00:58:47,700
Speaker 2: works where you just justify what your plan is because

977
00:58:47,740 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 2: of the end that you're intending. I'm happy to say

978
00:58:50,820 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 2: that there are people that do that. But that's not

979
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 2: the only thing I'm going to say, because I'll also

980
00:58:55,740 --> 00:58:58,060
Speaker 2: say that that's not what everybody who's thinking about change

981
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:00,430
Speaker 2: is doing. They're not thinking about how do I get

982
00:59:01,110 --> 00:59:06,550
Speaker 2: my aspirations for change to be things where... Whatever the

983
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 2: principles are, or whatever the theological argument is, is, I'm

984
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:14,980
Speaker 2: going to find a way to form and shape that

985
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,670
Speaker 2: to serve what are really more my ends than what

986
00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:23,390
Speaker 2: I'm discerning are a Christian response to seeking a world

987
00:59:23,450 --> 00:59:26,390
Speaker 2: with more love for neighbor and seeking the good of

988
00:59:26,450 --> 00:59:31,110
Speaker 2: all people. as opposed to a world where we're continuing

989
00:59:31,130 --> 00:59:34,290
Speaker 2: to put up with the ways that people are less neighborly,

990
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:37,830
Speaker 2: in ways that are from the interpersonal to the structural

991
00:59:37,870 --> 00:59:43,580
Speaker 2: realities of society. And so, to me, Pay the Prince

992
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 2: is a great place to start. It may be what

993
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 2: some people are only able to do because of their

994
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:50,820
Speaker 2: work and cultural circumstances, but there has to be more

995
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,410
Speaker 2: if we're going to attend to the fact that there's

996
00:59:53,470 --> 00:59:56,730
Speaker 2: a world where there's all kinds of big injustices that happen. Yeah.

997
00:59:57,190 --> 01:00:01,090
Speaker 2: and where people's everyday lives are being impacted by certain forms, certain,

998
01:00:01,110 --> 01:00:07,860
Speaker 2: certain negativities. So we, we can aspire to things and

999
01:00:07,930 --> 01:00:11,780
Speaker 2: pray and seek them, but we do that with humility,

1000
01:00:12,020 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 2: always with an eye on knowing that whatever planet it is,

1001
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,960
Speaker 2: it has to be subject to revision because our minds

1002
01:00:19,020 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 2: are limited. Our perspective is limited, but we want a

1003
01:00:23,140 --> 01:00:27,050
Speaker 2: better world. Yeah. And if we have agency, of some

1004
01:00:27,130 --> 01:00:31,810
Speaker 2: sort in that, then how am I helping to play

1005
01:00:32,090 --> 01:00:37,050
Speaker 2: some role in that? And so to me, that's a

1006
01:00:37,090 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: really important thing, I think, for us to think about

1007
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,540
Speaker 2: asking those kinds of questions while saying, in the meantime, yes,

1008
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:50,720
Speaker 2: there's a definite and important place for doing the small things.

1009
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:53,560
Speaker 2: And also, for some people, the best thing to tell

1010
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,620
Speaker 2: them is, Hey, guess what? Do you know you're not

1011
01:00:56,660 --> 01:01:02,490
Speaker 2: the Messiah? That's right. You're not. Therefore, you start small.

1012
01:01:04,730 --> 01:01:08,130
Speaker 2: You are not the person who's reading 2 Peter 3

1013
01:01:08,130 --> 01:01:11,130
Speaker 2: about hastening the end. I've got to be the person

1014
01:01:11,730 --> 01:01:15,490
Speaker 2: that does all the hastening, which I always wanted to

1015
01:01:15,510 --> 01:01:19,360
Speaker 2: be a kind of a post-millennial disposition. And if I

1016
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:22,040
Speaker 2: do that, Jesus is going to be back and we

1017
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:23,760
Speaker 2: did it. Well, really, I did it because I did

1018
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 2: my part.

1019
01:01:24,740 --> 01:01:24,919
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1020
01:01:25,820 --> 01:01:28,900
Speaker 2: I think the point about those texts, I would argue,

1021
01:01:29,020 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 2: about hastening the end is, yes, God says he wants

1022
01:01:33,060 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 2: his people to live more and more like him and

1023
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,260
Speaker 2: to be in terms of their character, but also in

1024
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:40,700
Speaker 2: terms of the way that they're living with others in

1025
01:01:40,740 --> 01:01:45,290
Speaker 2: the world. And of course, God says, more please all

1026
01:01:45,330 --> 01:01:48,130
Speaker 2: of you. And that more please all of you is

1027
01:01:48,170 --> 01:01:50,870
Speaker 2: somehow part of God's plan about there's going to be

1028
01:01:50,890 --> 01:01:52,950
Speaker 2: more of this. And at some point he's going to

1029
01:01:52,990 --> 01:01:57,630
Speaker 2: show up. makes the world completely perfect, then he's going

1030
01:01:57,650 --> 01:02:01,750
Speaker 2: to come back. Right. Especially, you know, there's all these

1031
01:02:01,790 --> 01:02:03,790
Speaker 2: other things about, it's like, yeah, by the way, you

1032
01:02:03,830 --> 01:02:07,650
Speaker 2: can't really know the time. Yeah. And even if it

1033
01:02:07,670 --> 01:02:09,210
Speaker 2: says the day is going to come like a thief,

1034
01:02:09,690 --> 01:02:12,470
Speaker 2: even in the verses prior to that in 2 Peter 3,

1035
01:02:12,470 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 2: it's obviously not the hate. And when we do enough,

1036
01:02:17,180 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 2: the trumpet's going to blow. Right. So we need to

1037
01:02:22,660 --> 01:02:27,590
Speaker 2: cast aside any of messianic pretension, is what I would

1038
01:02:27,610 --> 01:02:31,190
Speaker 2: call it. Being willing to do small things, but also

1039
01:02:31,230 --> 01:02:31,950
Speaker 2: to dream big.

1040
01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:33,140
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1041
01:02:34,090 --> 01:02:37,060
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And we can do both. And some people,

1042
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:39,140
Speaker 2: they're just dreamers. I mean, don't tell them not to dream.

1043
01:02:39,780 --> 01:02:42,140
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean that because they dream that it's magically going

1044
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:45,120
Speaker 2: to happen. And sometimes the big dreamers need people that

1045
01:02:45,160 --> 01:02:48,620
Speaker 2: are saying, you know, we need the granular people to

1046
01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 2: show up. And to say, let's talk about the million

1047
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 2: little steps. that are necessary and maybe how we can

1048
01:02:55,380 --> 01:02:57,950
Speaker 2: do one or two of them and decide which ones

1049
01:02:57,990 --> 01:02:59,630
Speaker 2: to do. We need all of that.

1050
01:03:00,510 --> 01:03:00,750
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1051
01:03:02,210 --> 01:03:04,630
Speaker 3: No, that's really helpful. Go ahead, Ashish.

1052
01:03:04,970 --> 01:03:08,530
Speaker 4: Well, one of the things that Hunter says that I

1053
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:14,900
Speaker 4: think this fits well into what you are articulating is

1054
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 4: that he fears.

1055
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:20,180
Speaker 4: So he calls for faithful presence of pullback from politics.

1056
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:22,840
Speaker 4: I think that's moving in a direction that you're not

1057
01:03:22,940 --> 01:03:26,260
Speaker 4: compelled by. But one of his rationales for it that

1058
01:03:26,300 --> 01:03:29,420
Speaker 4: maybe is more compelling, but maybe to lead us in

1059
01:03:29,460 --> 01:03:32,100
Speaker 4: a different direction, is he says that he fears that

1060
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 4: politicians have drawn too many of the lines for us

1061
01:03:38,420 --> 01:03:41,100
Speaker 4: as to what we think matters and why it matters

1062
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:46,120
Speaker 4: and to what degree it matters. Now, if he's right

1063
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,120
Speaker 4: about that, But the answer is not to pull back

1064
01:03:49,820 --> 01:03:55,660
Speaker 4: and to be disengaged. How do we, as we enter

1065
01:03:55,700 --> 01:03:57,730
Speaker 4: into an election cycle, but also even when we're not

1066
01:03:57,750 --> 01:03:59,630
Speaker 4: in the middle of an election cycle, as we prepare

1067
01:03:59,690 --> 01:04:02,570
Speaker 4: ourselves to be thinking more broadly, how do we avoid

1068
01:04:02,650 --> 01:04:04,650
Speaker 4: letting politicians draw lines for us?

1069
01:04:08,390 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 2: Well, first thing is, are we actually willing to be informed?

1070
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:16,450
Speaker 2: Are we actually willing to take time? to think about

1071
01:04:16,490 --> 01:04:19,610
Speaker 2: these things as opposed to merely being reactive and using

1072
01:04:19,710 --> 01:04:24,330
Speaker 2: slogans and thinking that somehow a slogan is a doorway

1073
01:04:24,450 --> 01:04:34,270
Speaker 2: into a totalizing understanding of something. And so I think

1074
01:04:34,370 --> 01:04:36,010
Speaker 2: one of the things is that am I willing to

1075
01:04:36,250 --> 01:04:39,230
Speaker 2: actually be informed? Am I willing to at least look

1076
01:04:39,290 --> 01:04:41,190
Speaker 2: at what candidates are really telling me? Am I going

1077
01:04:41,210 --> 01:04:43,390
Speaker 2: to go to their websites? Am I going to read

1078
01:04:43,450 --> 01:04:46,590
Speaker 2: what they have to say? Or am I going to

1079
01:04:46,650 --> 01:04:54,080
Speaker 2: just instead choose which alarmist commercials are going to tell

1080
01:04:54,140 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 2: me that the apocalypse will come if the other team wins?

1081
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:01,240
Speaker 2: And then react in accordance with that. And of course,

1082
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 2: to me, no Christian should ever do that because you've

1083
01:05:06,140 --> 01:05:10,340
Speaker 2: hit the end of the book. So you don't need

1084
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:14,770
Speaker 2: to be agitated and thrown into a kind of froth

1085
01:05:14,990 --> 01:05:19,330
Speaker 2: of fear. because somebody's telling you, you know, if our

1086
01:05:19,370 --> 01:05:23,420
Speaker 2: team loses, I'm not sure that God's able to handle it.

1087
01:05:23,430 --> 01:05:25,380
Speaker 2: It's like, well, you know, the history of the church

1088
01:05:25,510 --> 01:05:29,560
Speaker 2: is really quite a winding road, you know, wins and losses.

1089
01:05:30,860 --> 01:05:32,820
Speaker 2: And so we should never be surprised about that. And

1090
01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:34,940
Speaker 2: certainly anybody in the United States needs to step back

1091
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:37,480
Speaker 2: anyway and recognize that the Bible says nothing about countries

1092
01:05:37,540 --> 01:05:40,260
Speaker 2: on this side of the Atlantic, except for the ends

1093
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:42,580
Speaker 2: of the earth and the nation. That's all we've got.

1094
01:05:43,420 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 2: So we can't, overly center ourselves in god's narrative of

1095
01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:53,709
Speaker 2: salvation history we do have the uniqueness of the united

1096
01:05:53,750 --> 01:05:58,630
Speaker 2: states where again as i said earlier we have more

1097
01:05:59,150 --> 01:06:02,210
Speaker 2: agency than most people have had in history in political

1098
01:06:02,250 --> 01:06:05,680
Speaker 2: agency people have had in history we're a country where

1099
01:06:06,160 --> 01:06:09,360
Speaker 2: you've had religious pluralism where religious pluralism means the process

1100
01:06:09,380 --> 01:06:12,970
Speaker 2: the catholics aren't killing each other And none of them

1101
01:06:13,010 --> 01:06:16,060
Speaker 2: are killing the Quakers and Mennonites. I mean, all of

1102
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 2: that is amazing. But none of that means that we're

1103
01:06:21,900 --> 01:06:25,420
Speaker 2: the center of salvation in history. It means we're in

1104
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 2: an interesting moment, an interesting time. And now we're in

1105
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:33,350
Speaker 2: this time of a lot of agitation, polarization, a lot of,

1106
01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 2: I think, recognizing that whatever people think about the trajectory

1107
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:41,140
Speaker 2: toward whatever they imagine the American dream to be, that

1108
01:06:42,110 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 2: it's a good time to interrogate when I think about

1109
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:51,640
Speaker 2: what's important in life when I think about the life

1110
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:55,980
Speaker 2: I ought to have how much of that is really

1111
01:06:56,060 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 2: informed by what scripture is telling me is a good

1112
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:05,060
Speaker 2: life versus what's marketed to me by arguably corporate America

1113
01:07:05,220 --> 01:07:08,920
Speaker 2: and by politicians saying if you vote for us we'll

1114
01:07:08,940 --> 01:07:11,890
Speaker 2: help you get to whatever kind of consumer you can

1115
01:07:11,930 --> 01:07:18,470
Speaker 2: be to construct your own version of a personal kingdom.

1116
01:07:18,490 --> 01:07:21,590
Speaker 2: And we need to be asking those kinds of questions

1117
01:07:22,090 --> 01:07:27,130
Speaker 2: amid saying, all right, these midterms are coming up. Am

1118
01:07:27,190 --> 01:07:29,590
Speaker 2: I willing to just pay attention rather than to just

1119
01:07:30,130 --> 01:07:36,490
Speaker 2: pay more attention to the ways that alarmist voices are

1120
01:07:37,090 --> 01:07:41,209
Speaker 2: will make us just nervous about everything rather than saying,

1121
01:07:41,250 --> 01:07:43,830
Speaker 2: all right, I want to actually learn and know something here.

1122
01:07:45,510 --> 01:07:47,470
Speaker 2: In fact, one of the ways that I recommend to

1123
01:07:47,510 --> 01:07:51,260
Speaker 2: people is pick a single issue and really learn about it.

1124
01:07:53,420 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 2: And really learn about what's a way that this issue

1125
01:07:58,200 --> 01:08:02,680
Speaker 2: will make things better, whether that's how you're dealing with

1126
01:08:02,900 --> 01:08:08,680
Speaker 2: child care, how you're dealing with access to healthcare, how

1127
01:08:08,720 --> 01:08:15,340
Speaker 2: you're dealing with better attention to infrastructure in certain places.

1128
01:08:15,700 --> 01:08:19,740
Speaker 2: There's all kinds of things that are very mundane, but

1129
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 2: they do actually play a role in a lot of

1130
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:27,809
Speaker 2: people's day-to-day lives. And politicians do care about them, but

1131
01:08:27,850 --> 01:08:31,670
Speaker 2: those aren't the things they're going to run on. So

1132
01:08:31,790 --> 01:08:37,770
Speaker 2: I think we need to... be willing to pause and

1133
01:08:37,810 --> 01:08:39,850
Speaker 2: to say, am I willing to do things in a

1134
01:08:39,870 --> 01:08:43,740
Speaker 2: certain kind of slower way and to be a learner

1135
01:08:43,820 --> 01:08:45,420
Speaker 2: about this? And as I'm being a learner, am I

1136
01:08:45,939 --> 01:08:49,740
Speaker 2: asking God to help me to think about what are

1137
01:08:49,760 --> 01:08:55,729
Speaker 2: the ways that things can be better for all of

1138
01:08:55,790 --> 01:09:00,020
Speaker 2: our neighbors? Yeah. And recognize that all of our neighbors,

1139
01:09:00,340 --> 01:09:02,179
Speaker 2: what's better for all of our neighbors doesn't necessarily mean

1140
01:09:02,500 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 2: that everybody's commitments are on the same level. You may

1141
01:09:06,180 --> 01:09:08,460
Speaker 2: have very particular ideas about what you think is going

1142
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:09,940
Speaker 2: to be good for all of our neighbors, but whatever

1143
01:09:09,979 --> 01:09:13,180
Speaker 2: those are, if you're thinking about those things, are you

1144
01:09:13,220 --> 01:09:15,519
Speaker 2: really thinking about all the neighbors or are you thinking

1145
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:19,830
Speaker 2: more about self-preservation, self-protection, all those types of things? Or

1146
01:09:19,850 --> 01:09:25,760
Speaker 2: are you thinking about really a common good and how

1147
01:09:26,660 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 2: the people that are running are, that you're looking at

1148
01:09:29,340 --> 01:09:33,680
Speaker 2: wherever you are, that here's someone who's really thinking about

1149
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:37,309
Speaker 2: how to seek the good of not just, you know,

1150
01:09:37,430 --> 01:09:40,590
Speaker 2: dog whistles to me about, well, make things better for me.

1151
01:09:40,630 --> 01:09:44,850
Speaker 2: And it inclines me to either ignore others or to

1152
01:09:44,910 --> 01:09:47,070
Speaker 2: see that I need to resist what would happen for

1153
01:09:47,150 --> 01:09:50,580
Speaker 2: others in order for me to have what I need. Well,

1154
01:09:51,220 --> 01:09:54,139
Speaker 2: is there another way that's neither of those things where

1155
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:59,620
Speaker 2: indeed here's something that's going to enhance the possibility of

1156
01:09:59,660 --> 01:10:05,669
Speaker 2: a better common reality for all of our people in society?

1157
01:10:06,170 --> 01:10:07,470
Speaker 2: And what's one issue connected to that?

1158
01:10:09,070 --> 01:10:12,630
Speaker 1: I actually think that's great advice. We got to kind

1159
01:10:12,670 --> 01:10:15,190
Speaker 1: of wind down the episode here. We're about done, but

1160
01:10:15,370 --> 01:10:18,179
Speaker 1: I'll just say this. I mean, I had the opportunity

1161
01:10:18,200 --> 01:10:19,980
Speaker 1: the last couple of years to address some of those

1162
01:10:20,120 --> 01:10:24,580
Speaker 1: minor issues. I remember writing a piece on tariffs. And

1163
01:10:24,930 --> 01:10:27,170
Speaker 1: I had no idea what tariffs were. I mean, I

1164
01:10:27,229 --> 01:10:30,570
Speaker 1: had a general idea what tariffs were. But until you

1165
01:10:30,590 --> 01:10:33,630
Speaker 1: start digging into it and you're like, okay, these had

1166
01:10:33,670 --> 01:10:34,970
Speaker 1: their place at one point.

1167
01:10:35,770 --> 01:10:38,910
Speaker 3: So do they have a place now? What do they do?

1168
01:10:39,090 --> 01:10:40,170
Speaker 3: How do they work?

1169
01:10:40,650 --> 01:10:42,350
Speaker 1: Once you start digging into them, you just get a

1170
01:10:42,380 --> 01:10:45,980
Speaker 1: better sense whether these are good ideas, bad ideas, some

1171
01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:50,400
Speaker 1: mix of the two. And I think when I dig

1172
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:53,460
Speaker 1: into those issues, I do get a different perspective simply

1173
01:10:53,500 --> 01:10:58,540
Speaker 1: because I didn't know all the history of tariffs and

1174
01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:00,260
Speaker 1: why they were done and what they used to do

1175
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: and how it all changed and.

1176
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:04,549
Speaker 3: Those kind of things. I mean, it was a fascinating history.

1177
01:11:05,189 --> 01:11:06,969
Speaker 1: And so you just sit back and go, I don't

1178
01:11:06,979 --> 01:11:08,910
Speaker 1: know that they're going to work now, but it's a

1179
01:11:08,950 --> 01:11:09,889
Speaker 1: fascinating history.

1180
01:11:09,970 --> 01:11:11,310
Speaker 3: And you.

1181
01:11:13,330 --> 01:11:17,850
Speaker 1: At least have some other frame of reference to go, well, maybe. Um,

1182
01:11:18,150 --> 01:11:20,590
Speaker 1: even if you don't necessarily agree with it, I do

1183
01:11:20,630 --> 01:11:23,350
Speaker 1: think it grants that sort of broader perspective.

1184
01:11:23,770 --> 01:11:23,990
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1185
01:11:24,050 --> 01:11:28,410
Speaker 3: So yeah, really helpful. Thank you, Vince.

1186
01:11:28,450 --> 01:11:31,290
Speaker 1: Thanks for being here, man. This has been great and, uh,

1187
01:11:31,370 --> 01:11:33,390
Speaker 1: really appreciate your work. I've read a couple of your

1188
01:11:33,410 --> 01:11:37,050
Speaker 1: books over the years. And so, um, just really appreciate you, uh,

1189
01:11:37,650 --> 01:11:40,139
Speaker 1: being on the show and Ashish, thanks for arranging it.

1190
01:11:40,370 --> 01:11:42,910
Speaker 3: And, uh, yeah, we'll call it a day there.

1191
01:11:43,210 --> 01:11:46,150
Speaker 2: So thank you. All right. Well, thanks. It's a Glad

1192
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:49,269
Speaker 2: to be part of the conversation. And I hope that,

1193
01:11:50,270 --> 01:11:54,530
Speaker 2: you know, many people get to be well informed, informed

1194
01:11:54,630 --> 01:11:55,309
Speaker 2: by what you're doing.

1195
01:11:56,090 --> 01:11:57,610
Speaker 3: Very cool. All right, everybody.

1196
01:11:57,650 --> 01:11:59,950
Speaker 1: We'll call it a day there. Thanks for being here

1197
01:12:00,340 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 1: and catch on the next episode of Thinking Christian.

1198
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:02,939
Speaker 3: Take care.

1199
01:12:03,340 --> 01:12:04,820
Speaker 1: Just want to take a second to thank the team

1200
01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:07,260
Speaker 1: at Life Audio for their partnership with us on the

1201
01:12:07,300 --> 01:12:10,900
Speaker 1: Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio.com, you'll find

1202
01:12:10,979 --> 01:12:14,340
Speaker 1: dozens of other faith-centered podcasts in their network. They've got

1203
01:12:14,380 --> 01:12:17,210
Speaker 1: shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and more.