1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, Welcome to this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: doctor James Spencer and I'm joined today by doctor Gary 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Edward Snitcher, and we're going to be talking a little 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: bit about the Old Testament today and particularly his book Connected, 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: How Scripture Guides the Study of Scripture. Gary is also 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: a Distinguished Professor of Old Testament in the School Divinity 7 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: at Cairn University, and he has a sub stack at 8 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: Carpentersstudent dot com that's with two s's in the middle, 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: Carpenter's Student dot com, so you can check out more 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: of his work there. Welcome very to the episode. Really 11 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:36,360 Speaker 1: happy to have you. 12 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 2: Back, James. Thank you. I had a good time last 13 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 2: time and I really appreciate the invite. 14 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, So today we're going to discuss a little 15 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: bit about your book Connected, and part of what I 16 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: think you do really well and Connected, which is how 17 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: Scripture Guides the Study of Scripture, is you're looking at 18 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: these sort of interconnections and why the Old Testament would 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: ever be important to anyone in the first place is 20 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: now that we have the New Testament. I've delved into 21 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:08,119 Speaker 1: this a little bit. I got into the conversation when 22 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: Andy Stanley published his book Irresistible This is a few 23 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: years back, and did a couple of pieces on Christianity 24 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 1: Dot Calm on it. But I'm interested to hear your 25 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: take on why would anyone bother studying in the Old Testament. 26 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: That may be intuitived Old Testament guys, but maybe not 27 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:25,479 Speaker 1: to everybody else. 28 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll jump into that. Let me start first. This 29 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: is Connected. Is not a book on the Old Testament, 30 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: and it's on how to study the Bible according to 31 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,399 Speaker 2: what the Bible teaches us about studying the Bible. So 32 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 2: it's a little bit different than the normal things that 33 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 2: are out there and the other thing that some people 34 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 2: just project onto it. Because the Bible is connected. That's 35 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 2: why I called it connected. Ye, people think of some 36 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 2: of my other research sometimes where I work on the 37 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 2: Bible's use of the Bible. This book's not on that. 38 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,559 Speaker 2: This book is about how to study the Bible that's 39 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: already connected for us and anyway. But it does start 40 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 2: in the Old Testament. That's two thirds or three quarters 41 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 2: of the Bible. 42 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: A lot of yeah, a lot of it. 43 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 2: So I think that the even when we ask that question, 44 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 2: and I'm not picking on you, I think it's one 45 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: that presses on us from Christian culture these days. But 46 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 2: the question of you know, why study the Old Testament, 47 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: I think that Jesus and the Apostles and the New 48 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: Testament authors would think, what's wrong with you for even 49 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 2: asking the question? That doesn't even make sense? I mean, 50 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: I think that what we see across the New Testament 51 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 2: is an understanding that there was the Gospel, there was Messiah, 52 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 2: there was Christianity before there was a New Testament. But 53 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 2: there could never be any of those things without the 54 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 2: Old Testament. And so the basic understanding that the Old 55 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 2: Testament is the scripture of Christians is just it's almost 56 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 2: a prerequisite of sort of the outlook of the New 57 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 2: Testament teachers. And I think that you know, just one example, 58 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: we think of the probably the earliest Gospel Mark, how 59 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: it begins, right, this is the beginning of the Gospel 60 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 2: of Jesus, the Messiah, the Son of God. Even the 61 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: term gospel Mark's not inventing it. He might be inventing 62 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: the gospel genre. But he gets that term from Isaiah 63 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 2: forty verse nine, because then he begins by quoting very 64 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 2: well known sort of mix of these several Old Testament 65 00:03:54,440 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 2: passages from Exodus chapter twenty three, Isaiah forty, and from 66 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: Malachi chapter three sort of brings them together, and he 67 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 2: points to Isaiah saying, you know, this is what Isaiah said, 68 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 2: and he talks about the one who comes before. So 69 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: even the way that Jesus is framed from the very 70 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 2: beginning of the earliest Gospel, even the term gospel, all 71 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 2: of that comes from the Old Testament. And it was 72 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 2: just natural for the Gospel writers for Jesus, for the 73 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 2: New Testament authors to read Old Testament forward to its 74 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: culmination in the teaching, death and Resurrection of our Lord. 75 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 2: There was nothing unusual about that. So I think the 76 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,119 Speaker 2: unusual thing is somehow, you know, all these centuries later, 77 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 2: here we are amid these Christians who loved the New Testament, 78 00:04:52,760 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 2: as we should, but somehow Christians have given the Old 79 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: Testament sort of a bad rap, which is very ironic 80 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 2: to say it is. 81 00:05:07,480 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: I remember, I think it was my PhD program. I 82 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: had a class called Continuities and Discontinuities, and it assumed 83 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: the connectivity of the scriptures. But then you have these 84 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: discussions about how contiguous is the Old Testament with the 85 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: New Testament. Where does it actually remain interwoven across, and 86 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: when is there a more stark disconnection between the two. 87 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: How do you think about that? Inconnected? Like when you're 88 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: when you're looking at the scriptures as connected, do you 89 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: see points of true discontinuity or disconnection between the Old 90 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: and the Testament or do you view it more as 91 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: a as a total outgrowth across. 92 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I want to be clear for listeners, 93 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: this is not a technical book. There's a very introductory book, 94 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: but certainly the more technical, whether you fraindaimed, it undergoes 95 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: it all. But yeah, I think that probably connected. You 96 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: can hear it in the title is emphasizing continuity. And 97 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 2: so one of the things that comes up in one 98 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 2: of the early chapters is how we need to read 99 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 2: the Bible in its interconnected way. So I use Nehemiah 100 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 2: chapter nine, the Prayer of the Levites, and connect that 101 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 2: with Acts chapter thirteen, Paul's first recorded sermon in the scriptures, 102 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 2: and those are two retrospective, panoramic sorts of things, and 103 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 2: so they tell the big story between them. The big 104 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 2: story is the Gospel story. And looking at these two 105 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: biblical stories for framing the Biblical story, you can see 106 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: three parts really Torrah story, Israel story, and Messiah story, 107 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: and those three parts together Torres story, Israel story, Gospel, 108 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 2: Messiah story, they make the gospel story of the entire scriptures. 109 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 2: And so one of the things that connected emphasizes is 110 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 2: how we need to read each book, each passage within 111 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 2: that biblical framework. So I think the dominant emphasis of 112 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: certainly this approach to studying the Bible is more focusing 113 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 2: on the continuity. But your question is really important. I mean, 114 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: the thing that we always that gives us pause is 115 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: just the surprising uniqueness of when God condescended to the 116 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: incarnation in Christ. There's something new and bold that just 117 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: can't be constrained. Right. That's where we don't want to 118 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 2: just do continuity. We have I say, no, no, no, There's 119 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:06,800 Speaker 2: something new and a culmination of all God's revelation in Christ. 120 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 2: So it just feels almost wrong to just, you know, 121 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: look at what God has done in the Gospel of 122 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: Christ and not see some measure discontinuity is not a 123 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 2: friendly word, but to feel a sense of surprise and 124 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: just a jarring that you know, the hinge of history 125 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 2: is right there. 126 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. I just I just finished teaching on Hebrews. I 127 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: did a I'd run a Bible stay on Wednesday morning, 128 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: so I just finished reading on Hebrews. And what I 129 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: was sort of struck with this time around was this 130 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: notion that the author of Hebrews in talking about the 131 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: good and the better or the copy, the shadow and 132 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: the substance sort of ideas, right, what I came across 133 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: this time and I just said, you know, we're we're 134 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: not looking at Let's say he described the Temple and 135 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: being in this outer court and not being able to 136 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 1: enter into the Holy of Holies. It's very Old Testament language. 137 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: You can't understand what even is going on there without 138 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: looking back to the Old Testament and understanding it. But 139 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 1: then the author of Hebrews paints this tension of because 140 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: we're still in the outer court. We know that we're 141 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: not we have not yet arrived where we really desire 142 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: to be. But there's no sense in which he's saying 143 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 1: the outer court is bad. This is a gift for 144 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: which we should be grateful for. But at the same time, 145 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: it's a gift that points us towards something better that's coming. 146 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: And I think that some of that would be stronger 147 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: framing in a discontinuity. It emphasizes this deep connection, but 148 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: it doesn't flatten that connection to say it has to 149 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:53,400 Speaker 1: be uniform. No, no, no, it can be an advancement, 150 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: it can get better, but it can't be really disconnected 151 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: so in or woven. So I don't know thoughts on that. 152 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: I just yeah, I think that that's a good example, 153 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 2: because you know, at the outer Court we're already talking 154 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 2: about the chosen people. We're talking about the covenantal relationship 155 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: to be able to come into God's courts. But you know, 156 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: thinking before there was the New Testament, at the Tabernacle, 157 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 2: or at the First Temple, or at the Second Temple, 158 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: there's the priests, and so coming into the courts is 159 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: not to be a priest right. The priests are called 160 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 2: specially to bear the burden of holiness, and I don't 161 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: think today's Christians quite get that special burden that the 162 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 2: priests alone had to bear, and they had to be 163 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 2: very careful not to transmit holiness that was their birth 164 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 2: onto the people. So they had the disrobe before they 165 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,959 Speaker 2: came out so that the holy garments wouldn't transmit holiness, 166 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 2: and those cause things that weren't set apart that is 167 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 2: owned by God to become holy. And so then the 168 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: you know, once there was that whole debacle in numbers, 169 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 2: especially chapter sixteen and seventeen, and God again says after 170 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 2: that whole uprising with Cora and the other rebels were swallowed, 171 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 2: God says through the Aaron's staff, butting, I chose Aaron. 172 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 2: Now stop it. Yeah, And then chapter eighteen the teaching 173 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: goes into reinforcing again the burden of holiness, that's the priests. 174 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 2: And now the Levites are seen not just as carrying 175 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 2: stuff through the desert, though they certainly started to do that, 176 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:54,199 Speaker 2: and they didn't always like that, but they're they're also 177 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: to protect the people from coming into too close to 178 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: God's presence and being struck down. For it's only the 179 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: priests who were called to bear the burden of holiness. 180 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:10,439 Speaker 2: And so, you know, transt forwarding to the letter the Hebrews, 181 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 2: it's that there certainly is a discontinuity in one sense, 182 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: right because all of a sudden, you know what, why 183 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 2: would you want to go past the courts right into 184 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: this right holy place where people are struck down. So 185 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: there is something very new that has happened because of 186 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: what Christ has done. But it's it's still best framed 187 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: by thinking through it with the analogy of God's covenantal 188 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 2: relationship with his people at the temple where his glory dwells. 189 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: And so when you think through it like that, is 190 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: that sort of what you mean when you're saying that 191 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: scripture is going to guide the study of scripture? You know, 192 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: you said it. This is differentiated from the work you 193 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: do more inter biblical interpretation, you know, used to the 194 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: Old Testament, the New and those kind of fun things. 195 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: So is that is that sort of thrust this this 196 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: deeper understanding of how the priests, for instance, are functioning 197 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: in the Old Testament now drawing forward and helping us 198 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: understand the mantle that we take on a gift we've 199 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: been given. However, we're going to phrase that within the 200 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: New Testament under the New Covenant. Is that sort of 201 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: an example of what you mean or would you explain 202 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: it in a different way? 203 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that might be a pre understanding of say, the 204 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,280 Speaker 2: big story that I was talking about a few minutes ago, 205 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 2: But no, it's this is more nuts and both than that. 206 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 2: This is even before that. This is probably I can 207 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 2: think about it this way that it's right. We want 208 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 2: to frame everything centered on the gospel story of the 209 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 2: entire Bible. But then the book, really the main chapters 210 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: go through genre by genre in the Bible, and we 211 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 2: learn how to interpret story from the way a biblical 212 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: story teaches us to interpret the biblical story. Look at 213 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 2: say Deuteronomy chapter six, where you know, one day your 214 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: children will ask you, what's the meaning of this commandment 215 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 2: and it's alluding their back to the Ten Commandments, and 216 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 2: the parent is instructed us to tell a story and 217 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: to show how the story relates to this covenental relationship. 218 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: Or again, in let's say Zachariah one, here's a prophetic oracle, 219 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 2: but it's about studying prophetic oracles, and so it challenges 220 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 2: us and shows us how to study prophecy in the prophecy, 221 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: or in ps one, where there's wisdom and there's study 222 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 2: of scripture, and that shows us how to study poetry 223 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: and wisdom in the poetic wisdom. Intro to Palms Luke 224 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 2: for is a really great example one of my favorite 225 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 2: chapters where Christ is there in the synagogue of his 226 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 2: hometown and he's teaching from Isaiah, and just this spectacular 227 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 2: teaching from Isaiah sixty one. But right in Isaiah sixty one, 228 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: the Lord scrolls back to Isaiah fifty eight six and 229 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 2: just inserts this connection based on a catchphrase, and then 230 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: finishes this out with Isaiah sixty one. And so the 231 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: Lord there is upsetting his hometown for sure, but he's 232 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: showing us something about how to interpret scripture. And he 233 00:15:55,560 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: finds the message that really upsets them, that the good 234 00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 2: News has always been there for the gentiles. He finds 235 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: that in the Old Testament stories of Elijah and Elijah, 236 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: and that's what really moves the congregation at Nazareth from 237 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 2: sarcasm to sort of this collective homicidal action. And of 238 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: course Jesus just walks away. But that whole thing is 239 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 2: set up by Lucas as was his custom to do. 240 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 2: I mean, this is what Jesus did. He studied scripture, 241 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: and so that's a good example of how to study 242 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 2: scripture from the scriptures. Yeah, you know, I think that 243 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 2: there's chapter on how to read Paul's Letters. From Paul's Letters, 244 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 2: how to read if you will Visions new and old 245 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: and there. You know, it's a tricky chapter to write 246 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 2: for an introductory book, but focus on Daniel studying Jeremiah 247 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: in Daniel chapter nine. Yeah, and the one of the 248 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: important things that comes out of that chapter. And I 249 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: have to confess it myself, you know, writing a chapter 250 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 2: on Daniel, and I've had to do it a few 251 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:14,439 Speaker 2: times in my adult life. It's scary. I've had to 252 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 2: ask for help from my Daniel friends who are specialists 253 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:25,679 Speaker 2: in Daniel, and Daniel himself he needs help when he 254 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: gets these visions. And so that's one of the important 255 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 2: things for us too, for especially when we're getting started 256 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 2: and studying the scriptures, is you know, when we're in 257 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 2: these really hard genres, we need to be careful to 258 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 2: ask for help and seek guidance and get what we 259 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 2: need so that we don't go off the rails into 260 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 2: some weird stuff. 261 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 1: I think one of the texts there are several texts 262 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: that come to mind when you're describing that, right, I 263 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: could go back to Exodus fifteen, which I think is 264 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: just this beautiful re rendering of what we've read in 265 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: the you know, the narrative prior to it. 266 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: It is, but it's actually in a reverse order, right, 267 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 2: because the song is first. 268 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: It's first, that's told later. Yes, you probably make a 269 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: similar kind of observation on Hannah's song and for Samuel. 270 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: You know, the themes that are included in Hammond's song 271 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: tend to recur throughout the rest of this narrative. They 272 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: provide a framework through which we are guided into the 273 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: interpretation of why is David doing the way he's doing things, 274 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 1: the way he's doing things. What is this really trying 275 00:18:36,560 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: to do as narrative literature that you might get a 276 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: sense of if that song or if that that song 277 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 1: wasn't there, but the song just makes it so explicit. Yeah, 278 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: you know, but the one I one I'm really thinking 279 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: of that I think is kind of interesting now that 280 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: you you've kind of talked through this is the narrative 281 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: of Josiah's reforms. He gets the law, like, he rediscovers 282 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,639 Speaker 1: the law of God, and what does he do. He 283 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: goes about reforming even though God tells him these reforms 284 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 1: are not going to save the people, not going to 285 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: save the nation. He continues reforming. And it just strikes 286 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: me that that's a really fascinating way to think about 287 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 1: what you're talking about, this deep connection of scripture. You know, 288 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: how to study scripture through the scriptures Josiah's reading the law, 289 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: and his conclusion is that the law doing the law, 290 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: doing what is right by God, as an end in itself. 291 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: It doesn't need further justification, it doesn't need a pragmatic 292 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: or utilitarian outcome. It doesn't have to be quote unquote successful. 293 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: So there's just a few narratives that come to mind 294 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: as you talk through that. 295 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:46,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that you're right on it that. 296 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: I think that we have a lot Every publishing house 297 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 2: has this. There's so many books on interpreting the scripture. 298 00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 2: So in part yeah, almost, why in the world would 299 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 2: you write another book. I have plenty of other things 300 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 2: to do, but this particular book has been on my 301 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 2: mind for decades. I mean, just to use the scriptures. 302 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: They're teaching on how to study the scriptures, to study 303 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 2: the scriptures, I think that I think that we've looked 304 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: all sorts of things to help us study the scriptures. 305 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 2: Lots and lots of clever and wonderful books out there. Yeah, 306 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 2: but I don't think we've put enough time into the 307 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,920 Speaker 2: tools that are right there in scripture. And I think 308 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: that we need to because if we think about what 309 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,199 Speaker 2: the later Old Testament authors, we can tell by the 310 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 2: way that they quote scripture so much and the way 311 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 2: that the New Testament authors are building through earlier scriptures, 312 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: that reading scripture with scripture was just the natural way, 313 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 2: and that's one of the reasons why there's such great 314 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,960 Speaker 2: continuity throughout the scriptures. Yeah, you know, this whole Josiah 315 00:20:56,040 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 2: thing that you bring up is a wonderful example. There's 316 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 2: several terrific things about it. When I when Josiah hears 317 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 2: the scripture, he does something very different than jehoia Kim 318 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 2: does when he hears Jeremiah read. He Johakaen tears the 319 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 2: scriptures and burns them. Yeah, worse than just Baruk, the 320 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 2: scribe of Jeremiah and Jeremiah that just reread it. Whereas 321 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 2: there's a connection there where Josiah tears his clothing and 322 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: so there's you know there, he really sees something from 323 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 2: this youthful age where he wants to reform his kingdom 324 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,919 Speaker 2: in a Torah shape, and he probably succeeds better than 325 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 2: any king before him because he legislates a tor shaped 326 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 2: kingdom and it's you know, it's a high point. But 327 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: it's also written in kings from a maybe forty thousand 328 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: feet view, because we don't get into the weeds and 329 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 2: find out how people feel. But it's in Jeremiah forty four, 330 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 2: where after Jerusalem has been destroyed and Jeremiah has he's 331 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: stuck with these people who are left behind, and they 332 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: say to him, should we go to Egypt? He says no, 333 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:18,159 Speaker 2: and they take them to Egypt anyway, and they're in Egypt, 334 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 2: and then the people there in the middle of Jeremiah 335 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: forty four they say, and so this is where the 336 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 2: Bible is wonderful. It gives us a counterpoint. From the 337 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: counterpoints perspective, the women and men both say, hey, none 338 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 2: of this happened when we used to worship the Queen 339 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 2: of Heaven. It was when we stopped worshiping the Queen 340 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 2: of Heaven that all these terrible things happen. So we're 341 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: not going to listen to you, Jeremiah. And so we're 342 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 2: left forward because the only thing that they could be 343 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: talking about is Josiah's reforms when he said stop worshiping 344 00:22:57,960 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 2: the Queen of Heaven. 345 00:22:58,920 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: That's right. 346 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:04,120 Speaker 2: And then these are eyewitnesses who saw the destruction of Jerusalem, 347 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 2: they lived in its last days, that were there for 348 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 2: Josiah's reform, and they're blaming Josiah. They're blaming Jeremiah for 349 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 2: this exclusive monotheism that's what ruined everything. And we're reading 350 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: the scriptures like saying, well, Jeremiah, if he doesn't get 351 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 2: it yet, he's got it that these people are never 352 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 2: going to get it. 353 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Yeah. 354 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 2: It's just an extraordinary moment in the history of Israel 355 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 2: that there's so many angles that the Bible takes on 356 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 2: Josiah's reform right there before the fall of Jerusalem. 357 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great. I wonder how you think about a 358 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: book like Deuteronomy. So I did my dissertation on the 359 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: Sabbath Commands, and it's you know, it's one of these 360 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: tensions in Old Testament scholarship because you have some people 361 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: who advocate sort of reading the pentitud backwards. Right, Deuteronomy 362 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: is almost the interpretive key to the rest of the 363 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: Pentituke and then you know, you obviously have the canonical 364 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 1: order and the narrative structure that's leading you all the 365 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: way down to Deuteronomy. My tendency is not to choose 366 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: either one, but to kind of let both play on 367 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: each other. But when I do read something like the 368 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: Sabbath commands. You know, I kind of sit back and say, 369 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: this is an interesting riff. Right, Deuteronomy switches things up 370 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: and roots it in the Exodus, adds a couple of 371 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: other little pieces, whereas the Exodus command is rooted in creation, 372 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: it's looking back to that. But it's this beautiful connection 373 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: between all these different events you have. You moved from Creation, 374 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: which obviously ends in Sabbath, through Exodus after the Israelites 375 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: have been delivered, then into Deuteronomy on the cusp, and 376 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: they're reminded not that God is the creator necessarily, but 377 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,719 Speaker 1: they're reminded that he is the one who has redeemed 378 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: them slavery. And so there's a beautiful interwoveness about that. 379 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: But I'm wondering just if you can wax philosophical a 380 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: little bit on Deuteronomy and how how you think about 381 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: Deuteronomy is helping us study other scriptures. 382 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 2: Well, first let me just say I love those are 383 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 2: PhD studies. 384 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 1: That was my PhD studies. 385 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So everybody out there, if you're a doctoral student, 386 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 2: you heard it. You heard it here both and that's 387 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 2: what you do. That's right, both and and there's your 388 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 2: dissertation topic, right. 389 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,320 Speaker 1: There exactly. There's a lot of room in the both 390 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: and space. 391 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: Nice job, James, Well, yeah, let's pick up on that perhaps. 392 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,880 Speaker 2: But I think if I were to think about more 393 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 2: of the kind of thing that's going on and connected, uh, 394 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 2: I think that sort of this recycle ten commandments as 395 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 2: part of it. But Deuteronomy sets up a culture of 396 00:25:55,320 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 2: scripture study. So we have we have at the great 397 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 2: command to love Yahweh. There is the teaching to instruct 398 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 2: your children the next generation everywhere, all the time, no 399 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 2: matter what you do. And when we think about prophets, right, 400 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 2: they have to teach. This is Deudonomy thirteen in acord 401 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: with Torah. And if they don't, that's how you know 402 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: they're a false prophets. The prophets aren't being innovative, they're 403 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: being very conservative. And the Levites in Deuteronomy twenty three, 404 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 2: they're set apart to teach Israel and kings are defined 405 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 2: in Deuteronomy seventeen as they have lots of jobs to do. 406 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 2: There's some stuff they shouldn't do. Don't marry too many women, 407 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 2: don't have too much wealth, and spend your days studying scripture. 408 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 2: And so you think about the Great institutions of prophet, priest, king, 409 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 2: they're all scripture oriented. Deuteronomy twenty seven looks ahead to 410 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: a specific monument that's going to have the tour written 411 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,640 Speaker 2: on it when the people get into the land of Promise. 412 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 2: Deudonomy thirty one talks about not only the covenant, the 413 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: tourist roll being set by the ark of the covenant. 414 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: And we have to notice what Deuteronomy thirty one says 415 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: there to bear witness against you. Yeah, not only that, 416 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,239 Speaker 2: but that set a little bit after the people are 417 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:34,920 Speaker 2: told gather every seven years, and it's the whole Covenental community. 418 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 2: So it's right, the men, the women, the children, yes, 419 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 2: and the residing foreigners. And that connects back to your 420 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 2: Sabbath command, where it's not just the slave owner, the household, 421 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,199 Speaker 2: the men that get off. Everybody gets off. 422 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: Everybody gets off, everybody. 423 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 2: Gets off, the work animals, the slaves, the residing foreigners. 424 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 2: And then they're all part of the Covenental community. So 425 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 2: even the the Covenental gentile element, if you will, they're 426 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 2: there gathered to read scripture. So when we talk about Deuteronomy, 427 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,840 Speaker 2: I think there's a culture of scripture study that's a 428 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,360 Speaker 2: part of this generation that needs to go in and 429 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,120 Speaker 2: do God's will and live in the labit he set 430 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 2: apart for them. So it imagines a scripture centered sort 431 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 2: of way of life. When they think about Deuteronomy. 432 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: I will say, it's interesting you bring that up, because 433 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:39,719 Speaker 1: whenever I talk about biblical authority I've been it's not 434 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: like I never reference, you know, inspiration in the New Testament. 435 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: You know, Second twenty three sixteen, and you know that passage. 436 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: We all know it's, you know, useful for rebuke and 437 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: instruction and all that kind of good stuff. I almost 438 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: always go back to Deuteronomy seventeen. This instruction of the 439 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: king to write his own copy of the law. It's 440 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 1: compelling interesting write your own copy, but then also have 441 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: it authorized by the priests. So there's a reminder that 442 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: the king is not writing his own copy and it 443 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: has to match all the other copies, right, and that 444 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: this is under the auspices of the priest, and they're 445 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: going to check this for the king to make sure 446 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,200 Speaker 1: that he's studying the right things. And so there's a 447 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: real sacred social order that's in place there that's reminding 448 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: the king that his job is to reflect God's sovereignty 449 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,959 Speaker 1: on earth to some degree, he is God's reflection and 450 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: servant in that moment, and then he's reading scripture day 451 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: by day in order to learn to fear the Lord. 452 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: And so when we just think about the dynamics of 453 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: that little passage there, and why studying scripture is so crucial, 454 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: it's like the character that is being formed in that 455 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: king is the character that is trying to be formed 456 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: in us when we read the text. And I think 457 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: it's just a little bit easier of an example to understand. 458 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: I'm finding the dynamics there are such that you have, 459 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: you know, this high figure in society who is now 460 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: subjecting himself to the Word of God, sitting himself within 461 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: the within the priests who sort of represent that holiness, 462 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: who carry the holiness community, and then ultimately just getting 463 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 1: so familiar with the Word that ultimately he comes to 464 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: fear the Lord. I find that passage so fascinating. So 465 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up. 466 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's I mean, it's part of 467 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 2: this culture of scripture study, but it's you know, it's 468 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 2: very different. I love how you've thought through that in 469 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 2: place that I haven't thought of some of those things, Jams, 470 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 2: I hope I can write them down when we're done 471 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 2: before I forgot. But I think that's. 472 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: It. 473 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 2: You know, there's there's not sort of a how to 474 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 2: like be a good king exactly. The important part is 475 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 2: aligning ones for the king to align himself with Torah, 476 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 2: with God's word, and that's what takes priority. I'm sure 477 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,200 Speaker 2: that the king needed help with the other stuff, probably, yeah, 478 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 2: but that's not what on Moses's last day on this earth, 479 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 2: that's not what he talked about. He talked about a 480 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 2: few things, make sure you don't do this, this and this, 481 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: but he spent most of his time talking about studying scripture. 482 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, such a crucial aspect, I think, especially today as 483 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: where we're in this sort of tech age where you 484 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: do get a lot more messaging. And I don't think 485 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 1: it's a I don't think that's a new problem, right, 486 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: We've always had to your point, you know, the Queen 487 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: of Heaven, that message was out there, right, that would 488 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 1: have been a temptation for the Israelites at that point. 489 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: They're looking at this and saying, wow, life was better 490 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,080 Speaker 1: under the Queen of Heaven than it was under the Lord, 491 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,479 Speaker 1: and we should have made different choices with our lives 492 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: and so but I do think the intensity is ramped up, 493 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: and I think that it's just crucial for us to 494 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: get into the Biblical text, understand how it reads itself, 495 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: and also learn to read it well for ourselves. 496 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 2: So yeah, that's that's the gist of this book. And 497 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 2: again again I would say to any of your viewers 498 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 2: that if you've not thought enough about how the scripture 499 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 2: is connected, this this book might help. But it's also 500 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 2: something that's designed in a way for teachers, and whether 501 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 2: in a church context or in a study context, or 502 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 2: even academic context, this is a different way to look 503 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 2: at how to study the Bible. And it's this is 504 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 2: on the bottom shelf. 505 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: This is. 506 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 2: A person doesn't have to know anything to use connected 507 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:56,240 Speaker 2: And but you know, so this is maybe the one 508 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 2: book that my mom can actually read and say, oh, 509 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 2: you know what you're talking about. Yeah, most of my 510 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 2: books don't put them in your grandmother's stocking, but this 511 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: one not so bad. 512 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: No, that's helpful, And I think it's going to be interesting. 513 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: We're gonna close shop on this episode, but I think 514 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:19,920 Speaker 1: in the next episode we're gonna be talking about Ezra 515 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: and Yamaya, And so my mind is sort of raising 516 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: a little bit because you know, you have Ezra teaching 517 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: the law to the people an awful lot, and so 518 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: I think this sort of primes the pump for this 519 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: in the next episode. I encourage folks to go out 520 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: and get connected how scripture guides the study of scripture. 521 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: This is something that's really important to me, is like 522 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: just helping the church understand what God's words says and 523 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: following the patterns that we find within it. And so 524 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 1: just encourage you to get that. The link will be 525 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: in the show description, so you can click there and 526 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: purchase that book. It's on Amazon, and I'm sure of 527 00:33:53,480 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 1: various other sites. Check out Gary's substack again, carpentersstudent dot com. 528 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: That's with two s's Carpenters in the plural student dot com. 529 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 1: It's probably not in the plural. I guessing there's an apostrophees, 530 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: but you don't do that on websites, So Carpenters student 531 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: dot com and yeah, go check out, go check out 532 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,839 Speaker 1: Gary's other writing. Really appreciate you being here today, Thanks 533 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: again for coming on the show, and we'll see you 534 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: in the next episode. 535 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks Jims real pleasure. 536 00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: All right, come back and see us next time. Everybody, 537 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: take care,