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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,

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Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the

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Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions

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Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everybody, welcome to this

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Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer and I'm

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Speaker 1: joined by the hosts of the Bible Unbranded podcast, Rebecca

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Speaker 1: Josberger and Renee Duffy, and today we are going to

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Speaker 1: be talking a little bit about the Sabbath commands, probably

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Speaker 1: in Deuteronomy, but also just the law more generally, and

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Speaker 1: how it points us.

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Speaker 2: To theology, what it says about who God is, God's.

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Speaker 1: Character, and I think a lot of times this is

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Speaker 1: one of those things that I've run into is Eyes

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Speaker 1: taught undergraduate students, particularly because of the way Paul teaches

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Speaker 1: the Law and the New Testament. The law is sort

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Speaker 1: of viewed with a little bit of suspicion. It's viewed

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Speaker 1: with a little bit of like, ah, we don't need

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Speaker 1: the law anymore. Of the law's passe, we've moved beyond that.

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Speaker 1: And what I often find I have to do is

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Speaker 1: sort of rehabilitate students to know the law is actually

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Speaker 1: really crucial and important and it isn't what you quite

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Speaker 1: think it is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's kind of where we'll go today.

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Speaker 1: But I'll open the floor and maybe I don't know

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Speaker 1: whether either of you resonate with that as.

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Speaker 2: You've taught or talked about.

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Speaker 1: The law with other folks, or maybe I'll start with

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Speaker 1: you have you have you had that same experience or

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Speaker 1: what's your experience with people kind of thinking about the

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Speaker 1: law maybe as a set of rules and dues and

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Speaker 1: don'ts or what have you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I will say that, like, my student experience hasn't

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Speaker 3: been exactly that, But I think that's because the student

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Speaker 3: population I've mostly been fortunate enough to teach are actually

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Speaker 3: students who kind of come in with.

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Speaker 4: No preconceived notion, which is kind of a.

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Speaker 3: Fun place to start from. But where I where I

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Speaker 3: have experienced that is like in my everyday church experience.

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Speaker 3: I feel like that exact kind of notion is often

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Speaker 3: perpetrated from the pulpit. This just kind of idea that like,

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Speaker 3: it's kind of a it's an easy it's an easy

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Speaker 3: thing to throw under the bus in service of raising

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Speaker 3: high the grace of Jesus, which is deserved to be

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Speaker 3: raised very, very high. However, you're actually kind of doing

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Speaker 3: a disservice then to the grace of Jesus if you

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Speaker 3: don't also have a really useful and at least sort

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Speaker 3: of robust understanding of the theology that does come from

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Speaker 3: the laws. So it is something that I feel rather

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Speaker 3: regularly regularly as someone who studies the Old Testament primarily,

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Speaker 3: and that there's that piece kind of shows up in

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Speaker 3: the more like the culture of Christians who just think

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Speaker 3: kind of flippantly about law and grace.

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Speaker 1: Well, it is really interesting because I would say that's

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Speaker 1: been my experience largely as well, except maybe when it

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Speaker 1: comes to the Ten Commandments. Okay, right, because the Ten

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Speaker 1: Commandments are far more.

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Speaker 2: Intelligible I think to people.

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Speaker 1: In other words, when it says thou shalt not steal,

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Speaker 1: we get that right. It's not like you know, to

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Speaker 1: reference back to our previous episodes. Not very many people

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Speaker 1: have oxen, and so when they're reading don't muscle your

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Speaker 1: ox and while you're trading grain, they're going, how in

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Speaker 1: the world does this relate to me?

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Speaker 2: Why is this even here? What does this look like?

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Speaker 1: I think you actually have the opposite problem with the

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Speaker 1: Ten Commandments, and Beck, you'll throw this question to you,

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Speaker 1: But to me, it's almost like the familiarity has bred

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Speaker 1: out a lot of the theology from these because it's

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Speaker 1: just intuitive now that we shouldn't steal, it's intuitive now

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Speaker 1: that we shouldn't kill.

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Speaker 2: It's into you know, yeah, I am just normal human stuff.

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Speaker 4: I agree. It's interesting that we're talking about Sabbath today

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Speaker 4: because that's the one of the Ten Commandments that I

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Speaker 4: get that people seem to trip up on where they're like, oh, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: but what about the Sabbath? And usually the hang up

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Speaker 4: is it's at least the way it's expressed is this

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Speaker 4: idea of there's something I'm going to do wrong and

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Speaker 4: I don't want I don't know what it is, I

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Speaker 4: don't know what we're supposed to do. Do we have

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Speaker 4: to hold, like, you know, all those feelings And you

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Speaker 4: get a little bit of push back on the Sabbath

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Speaker 4: at least I do from from students or at church,

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Speaker 4: which is really really interesting to me because the number

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Speaker 4: one thing I hear from students is how tired they are,

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Speaker 4: And I'm like always telling them, if you could serve

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Speaker 4: a God who doesn't just offer you once a week

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Speaker 4: nap day, which I don't read too much into how

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Speaker 4: I you know what that means or what that's supposed

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Speaker 4: to do, because that's through the lens of what are

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Speaker 4: we or are we not supposed to do? Which is

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Speaker 4: what you're talking about. Is that natural understanding of law? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: wouldn't wouldn't you be really happy to sign up for

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Speaker 4: that one? But serving that God? And yet that's the

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Speaker 4: one I find that people kind of push back on

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Speaker 4: the Ten Commandments because they don't know how they're supposed

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Speaker 4: to fulfill it, and it's scary and they don't know

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Speaker 4: if they have to those kind of ideas. And for me,

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Speaker 4: that's just evidence of kind of a fundamental misunderstanding of

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Speaker 4: both from both Old and New Testament, of what lat is,

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Speaker 4: what it's trying to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: We've almost boiled down law into its application. So in

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Speaker 1: other words, you know the ones that are, like I said,

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Speaker 1: the ones that are easy for me to follow, don't

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Speaker 1: kill anyone. I feel like I've gotten that one down

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Speaker 1: pat stealing mostly, you know, right, Like you know, you

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Speaker 1: have some of these that you're just like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: don't I wouldn't do those anyway. So okay, But then Sabbath,

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Speaker 1: So then then the question becomes, well, how do we

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Speaker 1: do it? And we missed the whole point because we've

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Speaker 1: we've focused on, well, the law is telling us to

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Speaker 1: do things or not to do things, and so if

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Speaker 1: I don't understand how to do this, how do I

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Speaker 1: know I'm going to do it right?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 1: Is it really going to work the way that it's

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Speaker 1: supposed to? You know, does this rationale really still hold

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Speaker 1: up in a you know, consumerist, capitalist society where we

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Speaker 1: have to be busy twenty four to seven and you know,

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Speaker 1: get alerts all the time. Like you can see why

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Speaker 1: it's attention point.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, agreed. I don't want to get us off track

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Speaker 4: of the Sabbath because I want to talk about that.

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Speaker 4: But another one of the ten commandments that sort of

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Speaker 4: opened my eyes to the fact that I might not

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Speaker 4: be I might be reading them too. I don't know, uh,

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Speaker 4: without the right questions in mind. But I remember translating

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Speaker 4: them not for the very first time, but for the

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Speaker 4: first time as a teacher, so you know, you're more

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Speaker 4: you translate differently. You're like, oh, I have to know

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Speaker 4: how to answer the questions. And I got to that

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Speaker 4: felt not covet, And because we use the word covet,

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Speaker 4: I assumed somehow I didn't even know. I assume that

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Speaker 4: this is a special Christian kind of thing that's like

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Speaker 4: way worse, like up there with murder. And then I

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Speaker 4: translate it and it's just the word for desire or want,

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Speaker 4: and I'm like, I was convinced I could at least

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Speaker 4: avoid coveting because that sounds so bad, But nope, do

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Speaker 4: I want things that my friends have and sit they're

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Speaker 4: all day pinteresting them and wondering why they got them.

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Speaker 4: And I didn't.

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Speaker 5: Well, so that was like, whoa, maybe these aren't as

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Speaker 5: like oh yeah, we just put those up on the

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Speaker 5: wall and we all have those and those are just

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Speaker 5: part of natural humanity, right want deeply in bread.

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Speaker 4: So anyway, that's my it's my confession.

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Speaker 2: No, it's good, I think. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Covening has always been a little strange for me too,

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Speaker 1: because you get you do get in the New Testament,

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Speaker 1: you know, you have certain translations of covening, which is idolatry. Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: and so it's like, well, desiring something that someone else

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Speaker 1: has is idolatry.

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Speaker 2: That's a strange one. But I think those are helpful.

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Speaker 1: I really do, because just like Sabbath, it points us

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Speaker 1: away from how am I supposed to avoid doing this?

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Speaker 1: And it like, how do I even differentiate that from stealing?

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Speaker 1: Like I'm just not on desiring it, but I'm not

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Speaker 1: taking it like that.

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Speaker 2: What's happening?

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Speaker 6: You know?

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Speaker 1: Like I think those curious parts where the parts that

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Speaker 1: we don't get, sort of shove us into bigger questions

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Speaker 1: of maybe I'm just reading all of these wrong.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: It's it's a really interesting conundrum with those commandments.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. One of the cool places that my journey started

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Speaker 4: with this was this thing. I think doctor Block has

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Speaker 4: made it relatively well known. I don't know for sure.

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Speaker 4: I have yet to teach it in a class and

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Speaker 4: have students go, oh, yeah, I read that, unless I

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Speaker 4: heard it from another class. But there's this mindset in

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Speaker 4: the ancient Near East that is made known to us.

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Speaker 4: You guys, have probably heard of it, of course, but

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Speaker 4: it's called a prayer to any God, and it's an

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Speaker 4: ancient prayer. We have a number of different copies of it.

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Speaker 4: It's probably older even than the copies we have, but

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Speaker 4: it's been preserved in a couple different forms, so it

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Speaker 4: was probably I don't want to like compare it, let

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Speaker 4: me compare it to like, you know, now I lay

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Speaker 4: me down to sleep or something. It's probably in the water,

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Speaker 4: in the cultural water, and it's a prayer in a

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Speaker 4: polytheistic culture where there are many gods when something goes

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Speaker 4: wrong in your life, and we can tell this by

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Speaker 4: reading the prayer. When something's gone wrong in your life,

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Speaker 4: obviously that's been controlled by the gods, and the petitioner

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Speaker 4: doesn't seem to know which god, so it's, oh God,

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Speaker 4: I may or may not know, that Goddess I may

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Speaker 4: or may not know. And it goes on like that forever.

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Speaker 4: So it's almost like Doctor Seuss when you read it,

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Speaker 4: because it's just it just keeps going, and it's a

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Speaker 4: sin I may or may not have committed, you know.

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Speaker 4: And he talks about his eyes have looked on something,

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Speaker 4: maybe his hands have touched something, maybe his feet have done.

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Speaker 4: He doesn't know what he did, and he doesn't know

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Speaker 4: what God is mad at him, and he doesn't know

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Speaker 4: what he did, and then he doesn't know what to

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Speaker 4: do to make it right. And it's kind of it

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Speaker 4: seems to, you know, point us to one of the

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Speaker 4: fundamental crises of humanity in the ancient world. And it's

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Speaker 4: really interesting. I'll read that aloud in class. And then

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Speaker 4: you read the Ten Commandments in either Deuteronomy or Exodus,

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Speaker 4: and it starts with I am the Lord your God

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Speaker 4: with his personal name. This is who I So he's

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Speaker 4: identified right off the bat, and then you know, he

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Speaker 4: tells them like, this is the kind of God I am.

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Speaker 4: I'm the one who rescued you. And then he goes

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Speaker 4: on to tell them kind of the ten things they

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Speaker 4: need to do. I can't get all ten fingers in

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Speaker 4: this frame here, right, but it's a pretty simple probably

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Speaker 4: memory device, where like there's ten of them here you go,

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Speaker 4: and we know that there's more than ten things they

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Speaker 4: need to do, but just kind of boiled down. And we,

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Speaker 4: interestingly enough, in our culture as New Testament believers, often

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Speaker 4: look at that and feel relief that we are not

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Speaker 4: bound to those ten things we are saved by Jesus Christ,

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Speaker 4: and I believe the Old Testament characters were too. I mean,

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Speaker 4: this God's plan for the world is universal, but these

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Speaker 4: ten things that are given them are actually quite gracious

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Speaker 4: and very comforting, because how else do you know what

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Speaker 4: you're doing wrong in who you're wronging. And you see

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Speaker 4: that being picked up over and over again when the

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Speaker 4: psalmist will celebrate that. It points out the error of

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Speaker 4: their ways, you know, those kinds of things like it.

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Speaker 4: It gives them pinicition and boundaries in a world where

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Speaker 4: that is absolutely long to four And that was one

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Speaker 4: of those just moments where I thought, I really don't

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Speaker 4: know that I do understand the grace that is given

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Speaker 4: with the laws. And then if you guys want to

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Speaker 4: jump into that, there was a second step, and that

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Speaker 4: is when beginning to understand ancient Mary Stron laws I

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Speaker 4: have read, I think just about all the ones there are.

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Speaker 4: I love reading ancient eery Stern law like over and

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Speaker 4: over and over again, translating pieces of it wherever possible,

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Speaker 4: even if I have to like kind of learn the

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Speaker 4: ins and outs of a new language, not solidly, but

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Speaker 4: you know, love ancient eery Stern law. And one of

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Speaker 4: the things that fascinates me is that whenever we have

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Speaker 4: a preamble to the ancient Eary Stern laws, the page

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Speaker 4: at the front that tell why they're being given. The

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Speaker 4: impetus for ancient Eastern law is that it demonstrates the

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Speaker 4: strength and the character of the king. If law, if

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Speaker 4: kings are you know, we all know this probably, but

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Speaker 4: we don't think about it too often. If kings are strong,

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Speaker 4: they can get larger boundaries, they can their military, can

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Speaker 4: you conquer more. But if they're only strong enough to

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Speaker 4: get bigger boundaries but not strong enough to rule with

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Speaker 4: justice in their land, they're just blopping from war to war.

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Speaker 4: Then they're considered strong outwardly and big, but they don't

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Speaker 4: have the majesty or the strength to also rule. And

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Speaker 4: what a law does in the ancient and Eastern world

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Speaker 4: and even today, it expresses the amount of sovereignty that

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Speaker 4: a king has that they can uphold those laws. And

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Speaker 4: then and then it shows the characters, so so many

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Speaker 4: talk about it will reveal the the justice, which interestingly enough,

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Speaker 4: that Hebrew is the same word for righteousness. I don't

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Speaker 4: know that they're always used the same way. That's a

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Speaker 4: whole nother study. But it shows the righteousness of God.

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Speaker 4: So God's showing his character. And Deuteronomy four you've mentioned

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Speaker 4: pray is the law, as you've vangelistic, it shows the

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Speaker 4: world that His presence with them their wisdom. And that's

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Speaker 4: that's an entire those two steps. I had to do

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Speaker 4: an entire shift of mind of what is this thing?

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Speaker 4: Am I glad that I'm not out from under it?

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Speaker 4: Or am I going to look at it differently as

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Speaker 4: this gift of what He's basic God basically showing who

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Speaker 4: he is. You can't really do law, biblical law without

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Speaker 4: doing theology because if he requires something, he's showing you

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Speaker 4: what he values and who he is. So it's all

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Speaker 4: theological all in my opinion as I study it.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't disagree, and I would just tag on

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Speaker 1: to what you just said there. You know, am I

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Speaker 1: happy that I'm not underneath the law? I think the

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Speaker 1: answer to that almost has to be no, because when

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Speaker 1: you go through into New Covenant passages, the one I'm

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Speaker 1: the one I love the most is Ezekiel thirty six,

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Speaker 1: twenty six and twenty seven. I will turn your hearts

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Speaker 1: of stone into hearts of flesh and I will put

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Speaker 1: my Holy Spirit within you. And some translations say cause you,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's probably more the sense of make

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Speaker 1: you enable you, remake your heart.

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Speaker 2: It's Asah there.

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Speaker 1: And I will, I will enable you to keep my laws,

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Speaker 1: my statutes, and my commandments. And so even as they're

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Speaker 1: you know, you're envisioning the spirit coming into our hearts

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Speaker 1: and this complete and total renewal. You're not escaping the law.

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Speaker 1: You're learning and being enabled to live underneath it. And

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Speaker 1: this is the way it's pictured toward in those New

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Speaker 1: Covenant passages. We see it probably something similar in what

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Speaker 1: we know is the Great commission. Jesus is given all authority.

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Speaker 1: We make disciples, and what is part of that making

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Speaker 1: of disciples, it's teaching them to observe all Christ commanded.

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Speaker 1: And so these are not things that we want to

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Speaker 1: escape from. These are things that we get to live underneath.

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Speaker 1: They're appropriate enabling constraints for us that allow us to

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Speaker 1: live into God's order in ways that we couldn't otherwise. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just throw that out there as sort of a ruinder

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Speaker 1: to your statement, and Renee, do you want to jump

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Speaker 1: in You got anything?

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Speaker 4: Sure?

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Speaker 3: I'll just add what is probably no surprise to either

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Speaker 3: of you that narratively each of these is happening during

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Speaker 3: this like that really key transition moment for the people,

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Speaker 3: and that they're being they're being given freedom. Their freedom

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Speaker 3: from Pharaoh comes with this law that is also their freedom,

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Speaker 3: which is what you're you're describing, is that this freedom

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Speaker 3: being to follow the law, the freedom to fight against it,

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Speaker 3: but to be able to live holistically inside of it.

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Speaker 3: And then now they're going to be leaving the wilderness

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Speaker 3: and leaving that that moment of they're not they're not

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Speaker 3: in bondage to a to a man, to Pharaoh, but

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Speaker 3: they're they're in bondage to this space. This isn't where

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Speaker 3: they're supposed to be. They're heading somewhere else. And so

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Speaker 3: as they head into that freedom that is their land

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Speaker 3: there they reiterate that this is this is how you

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Speaker 3: this is how you achieved freedom versus how you experience

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Speaker 3: freedom is by walking in God's ways.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good. That's a good point.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting to think about when the when the law

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Speaker 1: is given, it's given after they've got this sort of

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Speaker 1: quote unquote political freedom. I did a fair amount of

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Speaker 1: study on the use of the Exodus in early American discourse,

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Speaker 1: and one of the things you find is that it

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Speaker 1: looks an awful lot like what you see in liberation theology.

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Speaker 1: The Exodus is leveraged as a political narrative we need freedom, Well,

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Speaker 1: why do you need freedom? So we can live life

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Speaker 1: on our own terms? And you go, well, I think

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Speaker 1: we missed something here. The Exodus is followed by the law,

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Speaker 1: which means you're not living on your own terms, You're

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Speaker 1: living on God's terms.

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Speaker 2: That was the whole point.

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Speaker 1: But you see that use of the freedom and the

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Speaker 1: liberation of the exodus very seldom paired with the constraints

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Speaker 1: in liberation theologies, and that was very much the same

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Speaker 1: in revolutionary America. Something very similar in the Civil War,

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Speaker 1: the use of the Exodus on the North and the South,

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Speaker 1: both sides claiming to have been on the side of elimination,

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Speaker 1: of tearing me, but really so that they could.

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Speaker 2: Continue doing what they wanted to do.

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Speaker 1: And so this aspect of law is part of what

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Speaker 1: I think we miss an awful lot when we're looking

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Speaker 1: at the Exodus.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I love that point, Renee, It's a fantastic point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I've heard Becky say before, and I

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Speaker 3: really appreciate this, this idea that like we think of

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Speaker 3: the opposite of laws freedom, but actually the opposite of

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Speaker 3: law is lawlessness.

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Speaker 4: Does that sound Familia Becky? Am I getting that right? Yeah,

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Speaker 4: that we don't.

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Speaker 3: We don't actually crave lawlessness, We prave freedom, which ends

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Speaker 3: with them.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I was. That's exactly where I was just

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Speaker 4: going to go with. Like, it's difficult in our culture

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Speaker 4: because we kind of want to throw off all parts

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Speaker 4: of rule that don't conform to what we agree with.

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Speaker 4: But let's be honest, our cries for justice are because

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Speaker 4: hopefully we're crying for justice in a number of settings

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Speaker 4: in our culture. We've watched that for a number of years.

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Speaker 4: But the justice that we're crying for is that the

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Speaker 4: law works consistently for all people groups, not that the

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Speaker 4: law is no longer relevant. Yes, And that's we kind

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Speaker 4: of get that confused. Because we do have the luxury

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Speaker 4: of so much justice in our country. You would not

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Speaker 4: want to live in a in a society where lawlessness rules,

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Speaker 4: and even more so, and I always have to confess

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Speaker 4: this most of my comprehension because I'm such an a

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Speaker 4: privileged Westerner that can kind of count on the law.

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Speaker 4: Like if a policeman comes up behind me, my heart

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Speaker 4: will race a little bit because I don't want a ticket,

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Speaker 4: but that's it. Otherwise I'm like, oh, these are these

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Speaker 4: people are coming to help me. I'm a very privilege

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Speaker 4: protected under the law. So I like it a lot

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Speaker 4: more than I realize.

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Speaker 2: I like it.

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Speaker 4: But Netflix all these like old you know, vikings and

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Speaker 4: stuff like that shows so my bollership is highly influenced

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Speaker 4: by Netflix, but it helps me understand probably shouldn't admit that.

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Speaker 4: So you guys can distant yourself from that. But that

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Speaker 4: idea of like, oh, this is how protected I am

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Speaker 4: and we are, so that I don't know that we

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Speaker 4: really can understand the value of It's not just that

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Speaker 4: this is what I can't do. I can't steal something,

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Speaker 4: or it's I have recourse if someone else does. And

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Speaker 4: it's not just principle. Someone is going to enforce that principle.

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Speaker 4: And then one of the big things in the Old Testament,

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Speaker 4: especially in Deuteronomy, and this is where I think some

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Speaker 4: people start going off on this humanitarian thing a little bit,

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Speaker 4: but is that within this framework, it's because God doesn't

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Speaker 4: show favoritism. It's not supposed to be a corruptible framework

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Speaker 4: based on the things that the world usually gets corrupted

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Speaker 4: by power, wealth, other things like that. And there's a heavy,

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Speaker 4: heavy focus on that in Deuteronomy, especially watching out for

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Speaker 4: those who don't have the same social advantages or wealth

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Speaker 4: or position and making sure that they get the same

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Speaker 4: kind of justice. And honestly, I think it praised that way.

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Speaker 4: We all realize that's what we're that's what we want

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Speaker 4: to live under. So there's some beautiful, beautiful things about

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Speaker 4: the law that I think have to be re positioned

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Speaker 4: when when students start to understand that the law is

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Speaker 4: literally giving a snapshot of something about the character of God,

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Speaker 4: and if we as Leavers really do want to understand

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Speaker 4: God better and know him better and be more like him,

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Speaker 4: then the question ceases to be do I have to

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Speaker 4: uphold the law and becomes how do I what is

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Speaker 4: it showing me about God? Which is what we started

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Speaker 4: this whole conversation with. And then the safeguard that I

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Speaker 4: always have to remind people, including myself, is that fear

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Speaker 4: that we're going to get it wrong because we don't

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Speaker 4: quite understand it has a solution. It's already been taken

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Speaker 4: care of. There's this thing called grace that was fixed

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Speaker 4: on the cross. So we have this like incredible opportunity

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Speaker 4: to explore what God looks like in his instructions. And

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Speaker 4: if we mess it up, we're already we're being It's okay,

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Speaker 4: it's okay, already covered and yeah, anyway, now.

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Speaker 1: I lead a Bible study on Wednesday mornings, and we're

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Speaker 1: going through the Book of Hebrews. So one of the

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Speaker 1: things that the Book of Hebers is really interesting and

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Speaker 1: is the way it frames some of these Old Testament structures,

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Speaker 1: the tabernacle, the temple, the law, the priests, you know,

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Speaker 1: in all the way that this works and sort of

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Speaker 1: pointing to the better that we now have in Christ.

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Speaker 1: And what I've been trying to emphasize with the guys

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Speaker 1: in the study is, look, we're not saying that the better,

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Speaker 1: you know, sort of supersedes what was before. We're not

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Speaker 1: saying that what came before was worthless or trivial or unnecessary.

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Speaker 1: What we're saying is that it served a particular function that,

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Speaker 1: you know, was always pointing us forward to something else.

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Speaker 1: And I think that even as we look at it

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Speaker 1: and we say, well, we have this sort of grace

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Speaker 1: and we can receive redemption and all the cultic mechanisms

434
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: that were built in that sort of atone for sin

435
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 1: and seek forgiveness and to worship. It's like these things

436
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:11,040
Speaker 1: are gesturing us towards something better down the road. There's

437
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: still grace there, and yet even as we're grateful for

438
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: those things, we can still be yearning for something more.

439
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: I love and Hebrews this one point where he says,

440
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: you know, the fact that we still had this outer court,

441
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: that we can only enter the Holy of Holies once,

442
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 1: it should be a reminder and I'm paraphrasing here, but yeah,

443
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: it should be a reminder that we're not where we

444
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: want to be yet because we have to stay in

445
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: this outer court, where where we really want to be

446
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: is in the Holy of Holies. And It's like, that's

447
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,640
Speaker 1: just such a beautiful picture. It's like, you don't disdain

448
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 1: being in the outer court. You're happy to be there,

449
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 1: but you also know all but I'd love to be there, right,

450
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: Like it is such a beautiful pictures.

451
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 4: I think, yeah, you know.

452
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: So it's it's I think this being in the law

453
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: right part of what I think, maybe we don't fully

454
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,400
Speaker 1: grasp all the time we're talking about the law is yeah,

455
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 1: we want to we want to have the law. We

456
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: want to have an appropriate law. But more than that,

457
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: we want to be able to live under the law.

458
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 1: And this is part of the yearning that we see

459
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: in the Old Testament, is the inability to live under

460
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: the law. The inability to keep this law so perfectly.

461
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: Isn't about oh my gosh, I've disappointed God. Now I'm

462
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: going to hell. It's it's about I really this was

463
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: the ideal and I'm missing it. I'm missing something by

464
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: not being able to keep this and and that's lamentable.

465
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: I think that's got to be an aspect of how

466
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: we think about it at least.

467
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, including missing something like missing missing an abundance in life,

468
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 6: and also missing a closeness with God, right, because that's right.

469
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 3: Continually, the thing that they're the separation is what is

470
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 3: painful for peoples not able to go into approach until

471
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 3: they take care of what has happened.

472
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the number one thing. Yeah, I was absolutely

473
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 4: I was gonna back up on the point you made

474
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 4: just a minute ago about Hebrews, which I'm always insanely

475
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 4: impressed with someone who can master both Testaments just seriously,

476
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 4: so I don't. I read the New Testament as a

477
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 4: layperson and I love it, and I but you're gonna

478
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 4: have a lot to add on that. But one of

479
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 4: the things I consistently like to remind my students that

480
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 4: they it seems to make sense to them is that

481
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 4: if we if if Christ is better than it doesn't

482
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 4: mean a whole lot. If we say Christ is better

483
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 4: than a bad thing. It's like, right, I like spin

484
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 4: it better than liver, Like, okay, I actually love spinach

485
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 4: and hate liver. But you wouldn't know that. You don't

486
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 4: know what I'm saying. But if if like Psalm nineteen

487
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 4: suggests that Tora is like this, it's compared to like that,

488
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 4: or it's set by the heavens as this thing that

489
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 4: declares the glory of God, I would argue Torah is

490
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 4: the second best picture of God we have in the

491
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 4: entire history of the world, with Christ being the first.

492
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 4: And so it's better than the sun and the moon,

493
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 4: the star, everything, And it's better because what it reveals

494
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 4: about God is who he is, and we want to

495
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 4: know who he is. It's then his character is then

496
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 4: lived out through human behavior, and humans are broken. They're

497
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 4: living it out in a broken setting, and they make

498
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 4: mistakes with it. They're not It's just it's not going

499
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 4: to be this utopic thing you think it's going to be,

500
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 4: because the character of God on an imperfect person. Where

501
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 4: Christ comes and he's the character of God in the

502
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 4: person of God. Good doll done. And then you talk

503
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 4: about I've never quite made this leap, and I don't

504
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 4: even know if I want to make it right now

505
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 4: because I don't want to just take my theological paradigms

506
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 4: and plug him in somewhere instead of like looking at

507
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 4: the text. That's really uncomfortable for me. But as New

508
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,640
Speaker 4: Testament believers, when you keep talking about the incorporating of

509
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 4: the Holy Spirit and stuff, which is so profound, but

510
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 4: we get to be imperfect, but we have the spirit

511
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 4: of God in us as we're trying to walk out

512
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 4: this law, and I don't know if perfect completion of

513
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 4: the law. And this is where I just haven't asked

514
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 4: myself this question. Inside the Old Testament text, enough was

515
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 4: ever what was expected or were acquired. You look at

516
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 4: all the characters that are called perfect or complete David,

517
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 4: et cetera, and they aren't. They don't keep all of

518
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 4: the law, but they're keeping the not the spirit of

519
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 4: the law. That's not where I'm trying to go with this.

520
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 4: They're walking with God and knowing him. Yeah, and you

521
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 4: mentioned even well, I'll leave it there. My brain's firing,

522
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 4: I know.

523
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I'll say this.

524
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: I think one of the points that I tend to

525
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: make when I'm dealing with these kind of issues, because

526
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: We've had such a tradition of you, the Jews needed

527
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: to keep off perfectly in order to be saved. Nobody

528
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: can do that. You all fall short of glory of God. YadA, YadA, YadA,

529
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: Like everybody knows that's narrative. But then you go to

530
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: first John one nine. Right, if we confess our sins,

531
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: he is faithful and justin forgive us our sins and

532
00:31:57,520 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: cleanse us of all and righteousness.

533
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 2: Don't take that as.

534
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: A straight condition, right, So that if we don't confess

535
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: our sins, he's not faithful and just forgive us. Right,

536
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: if we take it as evidence and inference, right, that

537
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: part of the evidence that God is faithful and justine

538
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 1: forgiving our sins is that we do confess our sins.

539
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 2: There's this recognition that we are part of.

540
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: We could probably frame it like this, all those a

541
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: little dangerous, but obeying the law, part of being obedient,

542
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: part of being a righteous person is agreeing with God

543
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 1: that some of the things we've done are wrong in

544
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: turning from those It's a built in mechanism similar to

545
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: what you see in the sacrificial system. Right, there's an

546
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: assumption that the Israelites are not going to keep the law.

547
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: Like that's a big portion of the entire penitution. It

548
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: takes up a whole bunch of space to make it right. Yeah, right,

549
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: you have to have a way of a way of

550
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: sort of reorienting this. So you say, yeah, I have

551
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: done all these bad things, and here is what I'm

552
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 1: offering as atonement for these, is forgiveness for these I'm

553
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 1: worshiping you like it's a true act of contrition. And

554
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: I think that some of the people that are called that,

555
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,120
Speaker 1: you know, Abraham always obviously comes to it through Isaac David,

556
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: you know, expresses contrition, real contrition in a variety of ways.

557
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: You know, you see these things happen across time and

558
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: you go, okay, yeah, it isn't just about doing this

559
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: perfectly it's also about aligning oneself so closely with God's

560
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: order that you refuse to live for long misaligned with it.

561
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: Something around that is kind of what I'd want to say.

562
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, one of my questions, and maybe I can ask

563
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 4: you this right now, And I don't have an answer

564
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 4: to this one. I have what I assume is an answer,

565
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 4: but I have found that other people think differently, and

566
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 4: I'm not sure how. So that's what I'm asking, This

567
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 4: assumption that you identify really well, that we often push

568
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 4: back on that the law was somehow made a given

569
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 4: so that people could live a good enough life so

570
00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 4: that God could be with them. When I say that

571
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 4: out loud, it sounds totally contrary to the character of

572
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 4: God has explained everywhere else in scripture and the capability

573
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 4: of man, the idea that we could save ourselves even

574
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 4: if we got everything right, And I don't understand how

575
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 4: this sounds awful. There's a better way to say this,

576
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,799
Speaker 4: but I don't understand how Christians can assume that. I'm

577
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 4: sure there's a way, because lots of Christians do. But

578
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 4: even where it's you know, the people break the very

579
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 4: first commandment, have no other gods before me? They make

580
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,839
Speaker 4: or don't make another likeness that represents me, and they

581
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 4: make this golden calf, and God says, Okay, I'm gonna

582
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 4: wipe you all out and I'm gonna start over with Moses.

583
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 4: And Moses like, no, please, don't leave us and we

584
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 4: won't go anywhere without you, and God's like okay, and

585
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 4: this whole thing, this reconciliation happens, and when that reconciliation happens,

586
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 4: we don't see really any evidence of We see the punishment,

587
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:36,399
Speaker 4: but it's not like and then Israel walked rightly and

588
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 4: so God was able to come down and live with them. Instead,

589
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 4: there's reconciliation and the next thing they do is build

590
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 4: the people, and then he shows up. So I have

591
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 4: had to jettison a long time ago, just on theological grounds,

592
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 4: the idea that like there was one way of salvation

593
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 4: and then God changed his mind like I can't fathom

594
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 4: my world. Oh no, I'm able to say, And I

595
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 4: know you weren't referring to that either, you were you

596
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 4: were building as a yeah, are there actually? Like? Is

597
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,919
Speaker 4: are there? Actually? People believe that?

598
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: So I think there's a common misconception around it.

599
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 2: So this was probably.

600
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: Ninety seven ninety eight where I started doing research on

601
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: the new perspective on Paul. And this gets into E. P.

602
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 1: Sanders and cupn Ol, noomism, and a lot of words

603
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: that people are listening to this may not even understand,

604
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 1: but essentially there is a movement within Paul and scholarship

605
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: to say that we got the Second Temple background and

606
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: understanding of the way that Jews thought wrong. And I

607
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: think so much of this is driven and sort of

608
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: anachronistically read back onto the Old Testament from this notion

609
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 1: that Second Temple Jews somehow thought that keeping will law

610
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: was saving them or justifying them using that very Christian

611
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:10,280
Speaker 1: language that we have, and it's probably in my mind

612
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 1: as I've read through all of that different scholarship and

613
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: looked at different things.

614
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: What I would say is, I think the Jews.

615
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: Were struggling to understand, how do we align ourselves with

616
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: God's order in this setting without the Temple? How do

617
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,840
Speaker 1: we do it without remaining clean because we're being defiled

618
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: every day by gentiles, and so they start being more

619
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: stringent on what they can control, which is keeping various

620
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 1: aspects of the law, and they're hoping, I think, is

621
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: keeping them as aligned with God's order as they possibly

622
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: can be given the situation that they're in. But I

623
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 1: think overall there's just sort of a misunderstanding, probably partially

624
00:37:56,080 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: due to what law actually does some of the stuff

625
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 1: we talked about earlier. I think there's just a misunderstanding

626
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: what the law actually was meant to do and how

627
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 1: it was supposed to be enacted. And and you get

628
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: hints of this in the prophetic literature. You know, mercy

629
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,439
Speaker 1: not sacrifice, right, Well, what do you mean you told

630
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: us to sacrifice.

631
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 4: Or temple the temple?

632
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: We like, what are we talking about here? God?

633
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: You told us to offer sacrifices what we're doing? And

634
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: He's like, no, I desire mercy, not sacrifice. And so

635
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: you get this sense that the law is not a

636
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,439
Speaker 1: set of rules that if you miss one you have

637
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:40,400
Speaker 1: to you know, you know, whip yourself, you know, or

638
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:41,160
Speaker 1: something like that.

639
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:41,439
Speaker 2: Right.

640
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: What you get the sense of is that there is

641
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: a thrust of the law that involves some of the

642
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: things we've been talking about, knowing and understanding what it

643
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: means to live with God, and that when that law

644
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,760
Speaker 1: is applied in a in a more stringent recipe like fashion,

645
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 1: right to bake a cake, you always have to put

646
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: the mix in the bowl first, and then you have

647
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: to add the A and then you have to like

648
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: when it gets to that point, then you kind of

649
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: know you've gotten a lot wrong. So I think that's

650
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,080
Speaker 1: how it comes in. Becky, that's a real like, Okay,

651
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,640
Speaker 1: thank you. That'd be my guess on it, say, my

652
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 1: relatively informed guess.

653
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's it, yep, and that makes sense. I yeah, yeah,

654
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 4: I just ye.

655
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,920
Speaker 1: Well, let's uh, so we don't let the episode get

656
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: away with us and get away from us without ever

657
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: addressing the Ten Commandments. Let's jump back into those real quick.

658
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 4: Or Sabbath.

659
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I think it's so here's a question

660
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: for both of you. So here's the way I sort

661
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: of have thought through the Ten Commandments over the years.

662
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: And this is informed by the way I studied Sabbath.

663
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: So it may not it may not quite square, but

664
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 1: when I try to help people understand how I read

665
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 1: the law, this is how I do. So I don't

666
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: know that it's as interpretive as it is heuristic, right,

667
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 1: but I think two things have informed me. Number one

668
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: is the Sabbath. Number two is the sabbatical laws, right,

669
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: And so I tend to start by reading the law

670
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: and saying, these are divinely empowered practices.

671
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 2: They work and function because.

672
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 1: Reality is the way it is, and particularly because God

673
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: is the way he is. And so when I read

674
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: something like thou shalt not steal, my tendency is to say, well,

675
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 1: what would it say if I did steal? If I'm

676
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: in Israel and I'm an Israelite and I'm supposed to

677
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: be sort of displaying the wisdom of God to the

678
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: rest of the world, and I'm out there stealing and

679
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 1: killing and committing adultery and coveting what other people have,

680
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: I'm suggesting that God can't provide for me sufficient. I'm

681
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 1: suggesting that they are are These are not humans, They're

682
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: obstacles to my own agendas. I'm suggesting that, you know,

683
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: the covenant that I made with God in marriage doesn't

684
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: mean anything, and I'm suggesting that God gave my stuff

685
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: to someone else, and it's my job to rectify his mistake.

686
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 4: Right.

687
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 1: There's always a theological sort of implication to doing the

688
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 1: opposite of what the tank commandments are asking you to do,

689
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: and so what you end up with is sort of

690
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 1: a back end way of helping people understand how this

691
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: relates theologically?

692
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 2: How does that?

693
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 1: How does that strike you? Maybe I'll go to Renee first,

694
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: How does that strike you?

695
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: Renee? Does that?

696
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 4: I mean?

697
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 3: I'm I'm processing, I'm trying to process through each one

698
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: of those things, and like all of the like the

699
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 3: outcomes from it, like it.

700
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 4: Definitely, Uh, it's making sense.

701
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 3: It is helping people go from well, it's it's always

702
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 3: strike right that the Ten Commandments are given to us

703
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:07,879
Speaker 3: in the negative, right right, like that that they're restrictive

704
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 3: in that particular way, and so thinking about the positive

705
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 3: helps Overwatching all of those things then can always bring

706
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 3: us to this place of who is in control?

707
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 4: Is it me? Or is it God?

708
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 3: So I think that even even being able to see

709
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 3: that and being.

710
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 4: Able to acknowledge.

711
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 3: My rightful place below, God shows up in each one

712
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 3: of those in a really helpful way.

713
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 4: What are you thinking, Becky? No, M Yeah, I'm curious.

714
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: Uh.

715
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 4: I want to hear you talk about the Sabbath. He's

716
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 4: gonna keep bringing it up until he does. I just

717
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 4: keep going. Sorry, I mean, if you were going to.

718
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: Rest find No, I think it's good. I think the

719
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: Sabbath was always interesting me. Not because I felt like

720
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,920
Speaker 1: I needed a break, but because you could do comparative

721
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: work between Exodus twenty and Diuuronyomy five, and comparative work

722
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: that you really can't do with any of the other commandments.

723
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: It's not like there's no other differences. I wouldn't say that,

724
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: but the Sabbath command really does have a.

725
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: Lot of differences.

726
00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: And so if you read, for instance, in Exodus, the

727
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: sabbath command is rooted in creation, and so what we

728
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,440
Speaker 1: see really in Exodus is that there's the Sabbath is

729
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: a reflection of the created order. It's ordering time, right,

730
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: and so this time is to be sacred. If God

731
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: created the world in six days and rested on the seventh,

732
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: then you keep your seventh day sacred as well. It's

733
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: a way of ordering time. But you get a completely

734
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: different vibe when you jump over to Deuteronomy. Deuteronomy roots

735
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,840
Speaker 1: the sabbath practice back into the Exodus, so you're to

736
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: remember the Exodus as you sabbath. The Sabbath is a

737
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: mechanism for remembering. It's a way of demonstrating that you

738
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 1: understand that you're no longer under the thumb of Pharaoh

739
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 1: and that you live in a different domain and kingdom now,

740
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: and that conditions some of the other differences that you

741
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: see between these two commands, for instance, like in Deuteronomy,

742
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 1: and an ad just popped up on my Internet Bible,

743
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 1: so now I can't see it. Such poor timing. But

744
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: there's a little phrase that comes in here in verse fourteen.

745
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 1: The end of verse fourteen, so you know you're supposed

746
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: to sabbath. You know everybody's supposed to sabbath.

747
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 2: On it. You shall not do any work.

748
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: You, your son, your daughter, your male servant, your female servant,

749
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: you or your ox, your donkey, or any of your

750
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: livestock are a sonjourner who's within your gates. That your

751
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: male servant and your female servant may rest.

752
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:56,239
Speaker 2: As as you.

753
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: That little as you isn't actually available in Exodus. Now,

754
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: there's some other differences, but that as you is not

755
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: there in Exodus. And so that's brought up this question.

756
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: You mentioned the humanitarian impulse in Deuteronomy, right, A lot

757
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: of commentators say, well, this is the humanitarian impulse. Look,

758
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: the God is commanding this so that the male and

759
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: female servants can rest as well. I tend to take

760
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: it a little differently. I mean, yes, their rest is

761
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: sort of a consequence of this. But the reality is,

762
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: if we look at Sabbath across the scriptures, part of

763
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 1: what you see is that it's not really a You're

764
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: not really taking a sabbath if you've got your slaves

765
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: out in the field, like taking care of things, right, Like,

766
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: how is this trusting God if I've just got my

767
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 1: workers out there doing it and I'm sipping back a

768
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: lemonade and just chilling right. And so what we see

769
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,439
Speaker 1: in the in the Sabbath command here in Deuteronomy is

770
00:45:54,600 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 1: a move toward the theological that the practices that are

771
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,360
Speaker 1: put in place, the way that the Sabbath is to

772
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:10,320
Speaker 1: be exercised, is aligned with who God is, the way

773
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: that God is structuring the society. And I think the

774
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 1: difference the contrast between Pharaoh and God. Pharaoh requires ceaseless work.

775
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: God of everyone, like of all the slaves. God is saying,

776
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 1: that's not how my world works. Everybody gets this break.

777
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 1: Everybody treats this time as sacred. This time was made sacred,

778
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,839
Speaker 1: if we read from Exodus to Douronymy, it was made

779
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 1: sacred by me at creation. And you're for jarn sure,

780
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 1: not going to screw it up by having your slaves

781
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: work on the Sabbath. Yeah, that's kind of how I

782
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: see that, the two sort of that whole narrative connecting

783
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:53,759
Speaker 1: and so yeah, so the Sabbath in Deuteronomy, to me,

784
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: gives us real handles for understanding how to read all

785
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 1: of these commands in more of that theological register.

786
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 4: This is so exciting for me because my work for

787
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 4: so long has been so teaching focused that I haven't

788
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 4: always gotten to dialogue with other people who have worked

789
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 4: on the same things that I've been working on. And

790
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 4: so in my independent, little, I don't know, conclave of

791
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 4: my office, you know, I have spent years with this

792
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 4: Sabbath command and doing very similar things, and hearing you

793
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 4: talk about this, I'm so lit up I have I

794
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 4: would say, I do almost the same thing with it,

795
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 4: which which is so exciting to me. When people are

796
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 4: approaching the text with a similar mindset in methodologies but

797
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,359
Speaker 4: not talking to one another, and finding similar things, it

798
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,640
Speaker 4: can be very affirming that I'm not just out there,

799
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 4: you know, like making up my own theology, which is

800
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:02,840
Speaker 4: always so scary. The one piece that I brought to

801
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 4: the question before I even started when I noticed, like, ooh,

802
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 4: there's a piece of the Ten Commandments that I can study,

803
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 4: that there's actually a comparative analysis that can go on.

804
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 4: And that was the Sabbath, soa same kind of thing.

805
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 4: All my study with law had already driven me to

806
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 4: believe and to test repeatedly every time I go to

807
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 4: anything like the Sabbath laws, that the reason something is

808
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 4: being given to us is because it shows us something

809
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 4: about the character of God. I mentioned this last time

810
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 4: we talked but Teronomy ten when he says, you know

811
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 4: the Lord your God at seventeen the lords r God

812
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 4: is God of God and lords of lords, the Great God,

813
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 4: a mighty and awesome who shows no partiality and accepts

814
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 4: no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and

815
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 4: the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing.

816
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 4: And you're to love, and you know you almost want to. Therefore,

817
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 4: you are to love those who are aliens, for you,

818
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 4: yourselfs are alien working in Egypt. And so it's like,

819
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 4: I do all this, so you have to right because

820
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 4: you're emulating me. So with that idea, which I didn't

821
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 4: find in Deuteronomy ten, it's so little that I didn't

822
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 4: see it until after studying a lot of these laws.

823
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 4: I went to the Sabbath laws, and that's the one

824
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 4: little piece that I I'm kind of asking you, James,

825
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 4: to test off camera and see, like does this fit.

826
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 4: So instead of seeing a difference, there is one between

827
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,399
Speaker 4: what's going on in Exodus and what's going on in Deuteronomy.

828
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 4: If they're both reflecting the character of God, and they're

829
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 4: both the same commandment, so it seems like maybe they'd

830
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 4: be reflecting something similar about the character of God because

831
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 4: he's asking them to do this. You talk about Sabbath

832
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:08,439
Speaker 4: ordering time and structure, which one hundred percent, but it's

833
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:15,280
Speaker 4: not just ordering things. It's ordering things to teach a lesson,

834
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 4: like to give the people a reminder every week. I

835
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,600
Speaker 4: did all of this, and I made it perfect, and

836
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 4: it's it's finished, and I did it, so you don't

837
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 4: have to like you're not going to make it perfect.

838
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 4: You're not gonna It's that thing Renee was talking about

839
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 4: about the sovereignty of God and where are places under him,

840
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:38,359
Speaker 4: and it has kind of this complex layer. I talk

841
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 4: to my students about this. I'm like, kind of it's

842
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 4: kind of like heaven in Genesis one, like it's all done,

843
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 4: it's all taken care of, and so you get to

844
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 4: kind of rest in that closest thing I think we

845
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 4: come to in the Old Testament as an idea of

846
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 4: a utopia, that God did it and it's complete. And

847
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 4: I think what he's doing in the Deuteronomy passage is

848
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 4: the exact same thing, but he's referring to something that

849
00:51:07,840 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 4: is much closer in the minds of the Israelites as

850
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 4: an example in their immediate context of his redemptive, redeeming, finishing,

851
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:27,719
Speaker 4: freeing kind of power, in that they are no longer slaves.

852
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 4: He did the thing, he redeemed them, and they they

853
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 4: get to remember that once a week. And I can't.

854
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:45,279
Speaker 4: I can't quite make the firm connection without forcing it.

855
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,240
Speaker 4: That's kind of the weakness of where I'm going firm

856
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:56,640
Speaker 4: connection between that redemptive finishing power of Genesis one and

857
00:51:56,680 --> 00:52:09,560
Speaker 4: that redemptive, literally redeeming, freeing kind of experience that the Hebrews,

858
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 4: that the Israelites experienced in the in the Exodus. But

859
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,560
Speaker 4: they seem to be pointing to the same characteristics of

860
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 4: God worked out in two different spots in history. Yes,

861
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 4: is my pointing to something about the character of God that,

862
00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 4: rather than being different, seems to be the same in

863
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,280
Speaker 4: two different expressions. And I don't know, if I haven't

864
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 4: had other people test.

865
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: That idea, I don't disagree.

866
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 1: They would point to a very similar character of God,

867
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: I think, if not the exact same. I think, you know,

868
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: the connections between creation and Exodus are such that it

869
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: almost needs to read that way. I would also say that,

870
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: while I haven't done the study, my haunches that when

871
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 1: we look at the bringing out of the people from Egypt,

872
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: which is the way the language just used here, Yeah,

873
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: you know, my wish would be that it's redeemed, I know, right,

874
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: because redemption then speaks to ownership, which speaks to sovereignty,

875
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: which you know all these things.

876
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 4: Well, and even if it isn't here he's talked about

877
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 4: the God the redeeming one of Israel at it.

878
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah, But my hunch is that what we're

879
00:53:29,560 --> 00:53:33,280
Speaker 1: looking at in all of this is a set of

880
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 1: concepts that are consistently overlapping and found in connection with

881
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:40,800
Speaker 1: one another. So I mean, even as you were talking

882
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: about the ancient Near Eastern lack coats and what these

883
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 1: do within the context of a King, shows his character,

884
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:51,440
Speaker 1: shows his sovereignty. It's hard not to conjure up the

885
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: image of God in Genesis one and recognize that, you know,

886
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,080
Speaker 1: we're this reflection that the humanity is supposed to do

887
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: is intended to both demonstrate God's authority and mark humans

888
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 1: off as having a unique dignity and character, you know,

889
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: And then you know, you get into Sabbath. Obviously we

890
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: have Sabbath again here, we have, you know, the creation

891
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 1: of an order coming out of chaos. Within Genesis one

892
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: one through two through t through two three, you have

893
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: a very similar thing happening in Egypt, at least on

894
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:26,919
Speaker 1: a conceptual level. That they are in chaos, that they're

895
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 1: in oppression, that there is no room for worship exactly.

896
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 1: All of these different aspects sort of start to pile

897
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: up conceptually at the very least. And then I think

898
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,400
Speaker 1: we are intended to read a lot of that not

899
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,280
Speaker 1: into the text, but we're supposed to read this text

900
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:48,840
Speaker 1: in that context. And so I yeah, I agree. I

901
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: think there's a real richness here, and it's all you know,

902
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:56,359
Speaker 1: sort of shoving us back to God is sovereign, God

903
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:57,920
Speaker 1: is wise, God is benevolent.

904
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,959
Speaker 2: Now you're free to worship. Yeah, and this.

905
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 1: Is what that looks like. It looks like Sabbath. Well,

906
00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: it looks like a bringing back that ordering of time.

907
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,600
Speaker 4: And it would make sense too. We talked last time

908
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:14,239
Speaker 4: about you know, where you go to the bathroom in

909
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 4: your war camp, these very crystal clear, kind of human

910
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:27,439
Speaker 4: samples of how you would remember that God is there

911
00:55:27,480 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 4: and how it would be driven home that to serve

912
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 4: a God who is sovereign, ordered, sufficient, and redemptive means

913
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:44,720
Speaker 4: that we have the privilege to remember that through rest.

914
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:48,920
Speaker 4: That's right, and that kind of you know, and of

915
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 4: course you went to the New Testament. Jesus is like

916
00:55:51,040 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 4: and Sabbath was made for man, and you're.

917
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 7: Like, no, oh oh oh, but what kind of in

918
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:02,520
Speaker 7: my mind frees me up from question of but how

919
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 7: what will God count as Sabbath?

920
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 4: Nience?

921
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:07,600
Speaker 2: That's right?

922
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 4: But anyway, well, I think there's just so much beauty there,

923
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,240
Speaker 4: and I map every Saturday or Sunday.

924
00:56:18,080 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 1: I agree, And maybe what we do, maybe maybe next

925
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: time we keep this going and we'll stick with Sabbath

926
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:25,719
Speaker 1: for one more episode and can maybe expand it out

927
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: a little bit, because I think there are some interesting

928
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: structural questions to talk about with regard to the modern

929
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 1: day church. There's some interesting things we could discuss just

930
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,600
Speaker 1: on our own personal rhythms of rest and those kind

931
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: of things. To display the character of God that is

932
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 1: gestured to in Sabbath or pointed back reflected in these laws,

933
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 1: what does it look like for us to do that

934
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 1: in our daily lives and how much improvisation can we

935
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:56,799
Speaker 1: actually use in doing so. Yeah, so maybe we'll maybe

936
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: we'll pivot to that next time and just stick with

937
00:56:58,640 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 1: Sabbath for a little bit.

938
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 2: Seems good to sit with.

939
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, I love it. Thank you.

940
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 2: Very cool.

941
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 1: Well, we're gonna have to call this episode done for

942
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: the moment, but we'll be back next time. We'll be

943
00:57:12,080 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 1: talking a little bit more about Sabbath. So, Becky, Rene,

944
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,000
Speaker 1: thank you very much for being here. Everybody, thanks for listening,

945
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: and we'll catch on the next episode of Thinking Christian

946
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 1: Take Care. I just want to take a second to

947
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership with

948
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to

949
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:30,080
Speaker 1: lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered

950
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting,

951
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:34,919
Speaker 1: and more.