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Speaker 1: Life Audio. Islam is different than Christianity. That is the

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Speaker 1: problem in the West. The projection of your worldview, your

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Speaker 1: understanding of everything onto Islam. Islam is different. Islam is

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Speaker 1: an identity. It's a citizenship. So if you're born a Muslim,

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Speaker 1: you're a Muslim no matter what. It's not about choice.

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Speaker 1: That's why leaving Islam is betrayal. Islam is not a

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Speaker 1: spiritual set of beliefs that you embrace. No, it is

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Speaker 1: an identity. It is everything that makes you who you are.

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Speaker 2: So you're 18 years old. You become devout. So you

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Speaker 2: shift from, this is my family, my culture, whatever. Although

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Speaker 2: you had some cognitive dissonance you described in your life.

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Speaker 2: You become totally devout. Within a year, you're a Christian.

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Speaker 2: What happened? What was the first cracks where you started thinking,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, this is not what I thought it was?

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Speaker 2: Why would a devout Muslim who grew up in Jordan...

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Speaker 2: abandon his Islamic faith, risk the life of himself and

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Speaker 2: his family to follow Jesus, and then write a new

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Speaker 2: book called Islam, Israel, and the West. Danny, I heard

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Speaker 2: you speak and be interviewed on a podcast and immediately

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Speaker 2: thought my audience has to hear your story.

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Speaker 1: It's compelling.

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Speaker 2: So thanks for coming on and being willing to talk

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Speaker 2: about your journey.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, Sean. It's an honor to be with you.

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Speaker 2: So let's start with where you grew up. And I'd

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Speaker 2: be really curious, what was your life like growing up

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Speaker 2: as a Muslim in Jordan?

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Speaker 1: So in Jordan, 98% of the population are Muslim Sunni.

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Speaker 1: So it's one sect of Islam. You don't interact with

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Speaker 1: people from other backgrounds, from other religions. And that is

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Speaker 1: the perfect environment for for demonizing everyone else. So we

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Speaker 1: looked with suspicion to even other Muslims, Shia Muslims, to Druze,

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Speaker 1: to Christians, and of course to the Jews. So that

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Speaker 1: is the environment I grew up in. And we believed

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Speaker 1: that there is some sort of superiority to Islam. Islam

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Speaker 1: is superior to everything else. And when you grow up

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Speaker 1: in that environment, you can't help how your attitudes toward

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Speaker 1: the words, your worldview is shaped. It is just instilled

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Speaker 1: in you. So I grew up in that environment, and

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Speaker 1: a Muslim Sunni family. I was that just among my siblings.

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Speaker 1: My family were what I call today, non-Muslims Muslims, which

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Speaker 1: basically nominal Muslims. But I had a grandmother who was

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Speaker 1: very devout to God. And actually my first book, it

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Speaker 1: was about theology. It's called The God of My Grandmother.

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Speaker 1: It was published in Arabic. Hopefully next year it will

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Speaker 1: be published in English. I spoke about my grandmother. about

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Speaker 1: how she was central to my understanding of God from

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Speaker 1: the beginning. And even though she was a Muslim, but

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Speaker 1: her relationship with God was some kind of something different

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Speaker 1: than the regular Islam that I grew up watching. So

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Speaker 1: that confused me a lot. And she also used to

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Speaker 1: tell me a lot of stories about how great Christians are.

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Speaker 1: their morality, and how they don't lie, and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So that made me curious about knowing more about Christians.

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Speaker 1: And I had an uncle. Actually, my grandmother, she lost

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Speaker 1: 11 children. They would die a couple months after birth.

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Speaker 1: And she used to live... next to a church in Amman.

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Speaker 1: That was in the 50s. And the priest told her,

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Speaker 1: if you want your child to live, baptize him, and

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Speaker 1: he will live. And that happened, actually. She baptized my uncle,

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Speaker 1: and he lived, and everyone after him. Wow. But that

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Speaker 1: was about everything I knew about Christianity at the time.

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Speaker 1: And even my baptized uncle He actually was a very

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Speaker 1: fundamental Muslim who went to train in da'wah, the Islamic evangelism,

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Speaker 1: in Afghanistan in the 80s and the 90s. So he

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Speaker 1: never came to know the Lord. But anyway, long story short,

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Speaker 1: my grandmother shaped my understanding of God. And probably that's

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Speaker 1: why I ended up leaving Islam easily. because I felt

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Speaker 1: some sort of cognitive dozens when I grew up and

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Speaker 1: I started learning about Islam, especially after 2006, after the

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Speaker 1: Danish cartoonist who drew the prophet of Islam. And that

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Speaker 1: was a novel thing in the Islamic world to hear

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Speaker 1: about criticizing Muhammad, drawing the prophet. It's unheard of for

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Speaker 1: us because again, Muhammad, he is the central figure of Islam,

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Speaker 1: not Allah. Allah is transcendent, remote, not personal, but Muhammad is.

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Speaker 1: He's more appreciated in Islam than Allah is, even though

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Speaker 1: the theology doesn't claim that. Theologically speaking, in Islam, Islam

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Speaker 1: is a monotheistic religion. But in practical theology, Muhammad is

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Speaker 1: the god of Islam because he has that priority. He's dominant.

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Speaker 1: So after 2006, I became very religious, very committed to

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Speaker 1: Islam as a reaction, a response to the West, the infidels'

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Speaker 1: assault on our prophet. And one year later, I left Islam.

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Speaker 1: So that is my words back then.

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Speaker 2: One year later. Okay, so we're going to get to

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Speaker 2: that in a minute. But that story about your grandmother

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Speaker 2: is incredible. It wasn't one or two kids as devastating

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Speaker 2: as that is. Eleven kids, and then the one who's

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Speaker 2: baptized survived. That priest had some serious faith to say that.

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Speaker 2: That's unbelievable. Keep us posted when that book comes out.

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Speaker 2: I think already my audience is going, tell me about this.

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Speaker 2: We want to hear more. But if you were to

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Speaker 2: ask me, Danny, why– Why am I a Christian? Huge

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Speaker 2: piece would be my family. My dad was a hugely

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Speaker 2: influential Christian apologist, radical conversion of the faith through agnosticism.

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Speaker 2: But my dad also told me at one point when

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Speaker 2: I told him I wasn't convinced that I believed Christianity

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Speaker 2: was true. He goes, that's great. You can't live on

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Speaker 2: my faith. Seek after truth. I love you no matter what,

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Speaker 2: was his response. I get the impression that you're a

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Speaker 2: Muslim for a very different reason. Tell us about that.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, the question is why I became Christian?

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Speaker 2: No, why were you Muslim? And I know your family

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Speaker 2: plays a role in it.

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Speaker 1: It's the family. So Islam is different than Christianity. That

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Speaker 1: is the problem in the West. The projection of your worldview,

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Speaker 1: your understanding of everything onto Islam. And you compare Islam

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Speaker 1: to Christianity. Islam is different. Islam is an identity. It's

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Speaker 1: a citizenship. So... You had no chance to choose if

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Speaker 1: you are American or not. You're American. You were born

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Speaker 1: in America. You have the citizenship. So you live inside

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Speaker 1: the geography. Islam is a citizenship. It is a state.

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Speaker 1: So if you're born a Muslim, you're a Muslim, no

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Speaker 1: matter what. It's not about choice. That's why leaving Islam

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Speaker 1: is betrayal. It is like you going and work with

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Speaker 1: China against America. So you're a traitor and you should

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Speaker 1: be hanged, right? So this is the understanding within Islam.

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Speaker 1: Islam is not a spiritual set of beliefs that you embrace. No,

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Speaker 1: it is an identity. It is everything that makes you

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Speaker 1: who you are. So, of course, born into a Muslim family,

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Speaker 1: you're a Muslim. You don't get to question. If you question...

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Speaker 1: that is prohibited in Islam, it's not only frowned upon

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Speaker 1: or something like that. No, absolutely not. Your family could

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Speaker 1: kill you if they're not afraid of the law. And

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Speaker 1: thank God, the Western law, the Judeo-Christian laws were imported

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Speaker 1: into many Islamic countries under the banner of global consensus

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Speaker 1: or humanism or whatever. But their Judeo-Christian values, biblical values,

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Speaker 1: And that's why the government, the Islamic government, when they

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Speaker 1: enforce these laws, Muslims are afraid of them. They're deterred

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Speaker 1: by them. That is why they don't kill anyone who

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Speaker 1: questions the faith. But there are limits. If you question,

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Speaker 1: they will let you go and die. have a conversation

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Speaker 1: with a cleric, with an imam. But there are, as

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Speaker 1: I said, limits. If you cross the red line, then

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Speaker 1: that is not acceptable at all. So that is why

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Speaker 1: I was a and committed to defend Islam, the reason

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Speaker 1: was emotional. Because, as I said, the response to this

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Speaker 1: infidel plot, infidel's plot against Islam, just charged me emotionally.

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Speaker 1: I had to make a stance, take a position to

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Speaker 1: defend my religion. Especially, Islam is filled with the stories

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Speaker 1: about Muhammad's companions dying for him, defending his honor and

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Speaker 1: his name. And underneath that, I would say the essential

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Speaker 1: reason is fear, because Islam is a fear-based religion. So

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Speaker 1: I know that Islam is getting rebranded in the West,

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Speaker 1: but basically if you open the Quran randomly, randomly, I

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Speaker 1: challenge anyone of your audience, just open the Quran randomly

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Speaker 1: to any page, read through the lines, and within one minute,

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Speaker 1: you will get to a verse that is threatening you

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Speaker 1: with hellfire, calamities. It's awful. threat after threat after threat.

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Speaker 1: And then every now and then there's like a promise

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Speaker 1: of reward of paradise and virgins and so forth and

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Speaker 1: so on. So it is the fear. It is the

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Speaker 1: horror in Islam. So Islam shapes people into slaves. And

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Speaker 1: actually Islam takes pride in that understanding. So Allah says

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Speaker 1: in the Quran, I created humans and jinn, like spiritual beings,

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Speaker 1: like demons, only to worship. So your existence is to worship.

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Speaker 1: But the word in Arabic is not worship. It gets

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Speaker 1: translated to worship in English. But in Arabic it is

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Speaker 1: to be slaves. So it is a slave master relationship

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Speaker 1: in Islam. It's not a worship. Worship in Christianity, we

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Speaker 1: understand it as, and we believe actually that we were

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Speaker 1: created to worship, but worship from a Christian understanding is different.

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Speaker 1: It is God's worth is above everything else. Not because

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Speaker 1: he demands it, even though he does, but because he

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Speaker 1: is worthy of that value. Frederick Nietzsche, he said, I

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Speaker 1: cannot worship a God who demands to be worshiped all

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Speaker 1: the time. He doesn't understand. It's not God lacks anything

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Speaker 1: and he wants to be worshiped so that you could

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Speaker 1: add to him. No, it is you cannot live without

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Speaker 1: having God at the top of your list. The having

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Speaker 1: God as God. But anyway, back to my point about Islam.

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Speaker 1: In Islam, it's a slave-master relationship. It's different than, for example,

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Speaker 1: the relationship between Jews and their God. Because even though

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Speaker 1: in the Old Testament, God was also a father, but

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Speaker 1: the relationship was not mature as son-father relationship as it

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Speaker 1: was in Christianity. But it was not a slave master

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Speaker 1: relationship too. It was a king and his people. It

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Speaker 1: was a covenant relationship. So Jews are, even Jews today

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Speaker 1: who don't believe in Christ and who uphold the law

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Speaker 1: in order to, some of them to please God, some

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Speaker 1: of them no, but still they don't do it out

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Speaker 1: of fear. Even if some rabbis try to frame it

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Speaker 1: that way, but still it's not similar to Islam. Islam

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Speaker 1: is completely different. In Christianity, of course, that is a

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Speaker 1: totally different story. In Christianity, if you are obeying God

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Speaker 1: out of fear, you are a pagan. You don't understand

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Speaker 1: the gospel, and you are not worshiping God, and you are,

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Speaker 1: I would argue... You have no understanding of what Christ

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Speaker 1: has done on your behalf. And therefore, I don't know

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Speaker 1: if you are a believer of the gospel or if

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Speaker 1: Christianity is a religion to you. So that is the contrast.

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Speaker 1: It's huge.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's massive. And to further your point, we see

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Speaker 2: in Genesis 18, Abraham reasoning, in a sense, arguing with

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Speaker 2: God over the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. And he says,

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Speaker 2: won't the God of the universe, God Almighty, do that

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Speaker 2: which is right? We see in Isaiah, come let us

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Speaker 2: reason together, and hence Israel means struggle, wrestle with God,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to Islam, which means submit, and in the

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Speaker 2: way that you characterized it, very, very different. So if

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Speaker 2: Islam is this all-encompassing, as you describe it, master-slave relationship,

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Speaker 2: then why was your family kind of non-Muslim Muslims, and

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Speaker 2: how did you live out that non-Muslim Muslim faith when

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Speaker 2: you were growing up?

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Speaker 1: The majority of Muslims are non-Muslim Muslims. I'll tell you why.

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Speaker 1: When you follow an ideology that has thousands of commandments, you...

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Speaker 1: Get frustrated. You become hopeless. You mess up. And no

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Speaker 1: matter how hard you try, nothing is going to rise

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Speaker 1: you up. You're down all the time. So you give up.

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Speaker 1: Islam by design is that. It overwhelms you to a

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Speaker 1: point where you have no hope. except, and here's what,

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Speaker 1: I wrote this article to the Christian Post about Sola Jihad.

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Speaker 1: You know, in Protestantism, we have what? We have Sola Fadi.

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Speaker 1: We have by faith alone. In Islam, it's Sola Jihad.

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Speaker 1: It's by Jihad alone. If you want to guarantee that

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Speaker 1: you're saved, you fight in the path of Allah. Sola Jihad.

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Speaker 1: So it is by design. You cannot please Allah. You

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Speaker 1: cannot gain his favor. You cannot feel at peace at all,

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Speaker 1: no matter how hard you pray, fast, go to pilgrimage,

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Speaker 1: all these abstract commandments. Islam makes you OCD, actually, because

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Speaker 1: of all the crazy things that it teaches. I'm writing

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Speaker 1: an article now about how Islam increases OCDs because OCDs

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Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. If you yawn without putting

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Speaker 1: your hand on your mouth, Satan is going to pee

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Speaker 1: urinate in your mouth. So imagine learning that when you

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Speaker 1: are a little kid. And then it just gets stuck there.

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Speaker 1: Every time you yawn, You remember, oh my goodness, I

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Speaker 1: forgot to put my hand on, even though it's like,

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Speaker 1: even after I converted out of Islam, I still think

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Speaker 1: about that sometimes. You know, it's like the idea comes

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Speaker 1: to my mind. I'm programmed in that way. If you

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Speaker 1: don't wake up to the dawn prayer, Satan is going

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Speaker 1: to urinate in your nose. If you, you have two angels,

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Speaker 1: on your shoulders, left and right, recording every single thing

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Speaker 1: that you do in every second of your day. On

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Speaker 1: the right, the angel is recording your credits, your good deeds.

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Speaker 1: On the left, the angel is recording your bad deeds.

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Speaker 1: And they live with you 24-7, from the moment you

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Speaker 1: are born to the moment you're dead. So you're living...

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Speaker 1: with two creatures, with two beings, with you all the time,

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Speaker 1: and you're thinking all the time about, oh, what did

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Speaker 1: he record? What did he record? Things like that. It's

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Speaker 1: crazy things. If you are to go to the toilet,

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Speaker 1: if you enter with your right foot, right leg, Satan

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Speaker 1: is going to be there with you. So you have

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Speaker 1: to enter with your left leg. And many times I

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Speaker 1: would enter the toilet, then I realized, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 1: I forgot which leg I used. So I go out,

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Speaker 1: I take my pants off, on, up, and I go

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Speaker 1: out and I reenter again. It's crazy. So at one point,

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Speaker 1: you lose hope. You don't know which record is heavier.

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Speaker 1: Is it my good deeds record or my bad deeds record?

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Speaker 1: So that leads you to surrender. You give up. Ask

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Speaker 1: any Muslim, any Muslim, anywhere in the world. This is

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Speaker 1: not blanket condemnation or anything. You know, ask any Muslim.

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Speaker 1: Where are you going after you die? They have no answer.

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Speaker 1: They will say probably hell. So jihadists, Islamic terrorists, they

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Speaker 1: have this framework and they are sincere. They want to

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Speaker 1: be justified. So what is the shortest way to achieve

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Speaker 1: that justification? It is dying in the path of Allah

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Speaker 1: according to the Quran. If you die fighting for Allah,

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Speaker 1: you don't get justice. held accountable for anything that you

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Speaker 1: have done in your life. You go directly to paradise. So, yeah.

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Speaker 2: That's about as radically different as Christianity, where 1 John

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Speaker 2: 5 talks about how we know that we have eternal

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Speaker 2: life because our confidence is in the one who achieved

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Speaker 2: it for us through his death on the cross and

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Speaker 2: his perfect life. We are declared righteous, Romans chapter 3. Very,

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Speaker 2: very different. Now, let me take a step back. You

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Speaker 2: said in 2006 is when you really became devout. How

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Speaker 2: old were you in 2006?

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Speaker 1: 18. Oh, okay.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: So you're 18 years old. You become devout. So you

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Speaker 2: shift from kind of nominal, this is my family, my culture, whatever,

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Speaker 2: although you had some cognitive dissonance you described in your life.

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Speaker 2: become totally devout, within a year you're a Christian, what happened?

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Speaker 2: What was the first cracks where you started thinking, wait

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Speaker 2: a minute, this is not what I thought it was?

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Speaker 1: So before 2006, it's not like I was never religious.

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Speaker 1: At some point I was, because as I said before,

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Speaker 1: my uncle, he was very religious. And I used to

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Speaker 1: go with him on mission trips. to different mosques. So

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Speaker 1: I was exposed to this word for a very long time.

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Speaker 1: During summer, mainly. Every summer I would join him on

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Speaker 1: his trips. But in 2006, when I became very devout,

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Speaker 1: I started going to the mosque five times a day.

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Speaker 1: The dawn prayer at 4 a.m., I was very aggressive,

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Speaker 1: you know, waking my siblings up, using my belt. because

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Speaker 1: they don't want to wake up. So I would wake

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Speaker 1: them up by force and take them with me, drag

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Speaker 1: them to the mosque at 4.30 in the morning. My

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Speaker 1: father actually would fight with me. It's like, leave them alone.

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, you're an infidel. They've got to

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Speaker 1: come with me. So it's like things like that, yeah.

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Speaker 1: But at year end, I realized that, and I remember

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Speaker 1: that moment, I was sitting... at our front yard at night,

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Speaker 1: and I was thinking that there was no difference in

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Speaker 1: my internal state, in my inner feeling about, there was

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Speaker 1: no difference between before I become devout and a year after.

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Speaker 1: I'm so devout. There was nothing. It was the same

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Speaker 1: enmity between me and God, the same the same kind of,

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Speaker 1: there was no peace. So, of course, from a Christian perspective,

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Speaker 1: we describe that as justification, but back then I had

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Speaker 1: no terminology to describe what I was going through, but

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Speaker 1: I felt like there's nothing changing in my heart. So,

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Speaker 1: that moment I decided I am going to stop going

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Speaker 1: to mosques, Because it was a lot of work, as

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Speaker 1: I say. But you're never fulfilled. You never feel like

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Speaker 1: you have met the requirements. Because it's all about duty

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Speaker 1: and requirements. In Islam, it is about the minimum you

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Speaker 1: can achieve. The minimum required. It's never about the maximum possible,

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Speaker 1: like in Christianity. You know, Paul in the New Testament

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Speaker 1: is like talking to thieves, don't steal. And he didn't

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Speaker 1: stop there. He's like, okay, go work and give. So

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Speaker 1: that is the maximum possible. And you're not doing it

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Speaker 1: out of duty, out of obligation. You're doing it because

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Speaker 1: you're basically not obligated to do it. If you are

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Speaker 1: obligated to do it, you will be struggling to achieve

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Speaker 1: the minimum required. That is Islam. you want to achieve

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Speaker 1: the minimum required. The problem is the minimum required is

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Speaker 1: so abstract. You don't understand it because it's a lot

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Speaker 1: of things. And, uh, it's like enigma. It's like you

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Speaker 1: have to keep all the records and it doesn't work anyway.

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Speaker 1: So I stopped going to mosque, to the mosque. And, um,

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Speaker 1: even though the group from the mosque, uh, kept trying

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Speaker 1: to get me back, they would come to visit me. Um,

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Speaker 1: trying to convince me that Satan has, uh, deceived me to, uh,

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Speaker 1: stray away from, uh, the faith. But at the, that moment,

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Speaker 1: I was like, um, as I said, I lost hope.

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, I'm just going to be like

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Speaker 1: a regular Muslim, you know, just praying and that's it.

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Speaker 1: Praying at home, sometimes at mosque. Um, that period, uh,

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Speaker 1: someone showed up in my life. He was, uh, there

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Speaker 1: were rumors that he was not on the right path

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Speaker 1: in Islam. It's like some people would say he's an atheist.

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Speaker 1: I would say he's a Christian. But anyway, I, uh,

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Speaker 1: I asked him, I was like, what's the story? What's

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Speaker 1: going on? It's like, is it true that you left Islam?

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Speaker 1: So of course I knew later that I, not when

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Speaker 1: he answered me, but, um, He lost his wife and

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Speaker 1: his children. They took his family away from him. They

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Speaker 1: put him in jail because he left Islam, because he

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Speaker 1: converted to Christianity. But at the time, I didn't know.

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Speaker 1: He said, no, no, no, I just have a different

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Speaker 1: understanding of the Quran, things like that. So he was

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Speaker 1: trying to conceal his conversion because he was afraid. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: he started planting the seeds of doubt into my heart.

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Speaker 1: by talking about things in the Quran that I read

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Speaker 1: a thousand times, but never paid attention to. You know,

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Speaker 1: Muhammad marrying his daughter-in-law. In the Quran, it's a verse

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Speaker 1: in the Quran. It's like, I read that a thousand

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Speaker 1: times and never stopped, never paused to ask, what is

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Speaker 1: going on here? So he started planting these seeds. And

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Speaker 1: then he would answer questions or explain Christianity indirectly. He

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Speaker 1: would be like, you know, both Islam and Christianity, they

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Speaker 1: have a lot of crazy things, but, you know, Christians

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Speaker 1: believe about the Trinity. It's not like what the Quran describes. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: they believe so and so and so. So he was

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Speaker 1: like answering questions about Christianity, but while claiming that he

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Speaker 1: was not a Christian. Anyway, long story short, a very

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Speaker 1: short time passed before I was liberated from Islam. And

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Speaker 1: that is why in my theology, I'm a Calvinist, I'm

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Speaker 1: a hardcore sovereignty of God believer. I believe in election.

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Speaker 1: I believe that God has born me again, not based

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Speaker 1: on my decisions or on my journey. It was his

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Speaker 1: sovereign decision. Well, because there is no other explanation why

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Speaker 1: it was me out of, for example, my tribe, 10,000 people.

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Speaker 1: Why is it me? But anyway, I became Christian, and

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Speaker 1: it was so scary because it was so abrupt. It

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Speaker 1: was so fast. It's like, am I making the right decision?

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Speaker 1: Am I running away from Islam because I cannot uphold

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Speaker 1: all that? laws and the rules of Allah. So at

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Speaker 1: the beginning, there was a lot of doubts. But it

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Speaker 1: was just a matter of time before I was solid

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Speaker 1: in my new faith. And yeah, that's how it happened.

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Speaker 2: What was the hardest doctrine to accept? I would guess

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Speaker 2: it'd be something like the Trinity. But was there any

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Speaker 2: just biggest barrier you had to work through emotionally, intellectually?

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Speaker 2: Maybe it's something sociological. What was that that you had

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Speaker 2: to work through?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, actually, I don't really care about the Trinity or

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Speaker 1: any of these difficult doctrines. The most difficult doctrine in

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Speaker 1: Christianity for me is the doctrine of grace. It has

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Speaker 1: been 20 years, and I'm still not sure if I

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Speaker 1: have accepted it until today. I'll tell you what I

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Speaker 1: mean by that. The doctrine of grace is very radical.

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Speaker 1: It is against our human nature. We want to achieve

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Speaker 1: our salvation. We want to... obtain it with our performance.

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Speaker 1: We cannot accept the fact that we are accepted by

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Speaker 1: God based on the work of Christ. We cannot accept

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Speaker 1: the fact that we are not only justified, but His

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Speaker 1: righteousness is imputed to us. So I struggle every day

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Speaker 1: to believe in this doctrine. If you ask me about

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Speaker 1: the Trinity, I don't really care. It's like, I don't

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Speaker 1: really care. It's like, my problem is with the gospel.

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Speaker 1: Because every day, I must believe that it's not about me,

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Speaker 1: it's about what Christ has accomplished on my behalf. He

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Speaker 1: died the death that I was supposed to die, and

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Speaker 1: he lived the life I am supposed to live. So

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Speaker 1: this is the most radical doctrine I found in Christianity,

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Speaker 1: and I believe that it was the reason I became Christian,

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Speaker 1: even though It is so difficult to accept. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, this is not only me. It's like any

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Speaker 1: real Christian, any serious Christian would struggle with this doctrine.

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Edwards, I remember reading about his struggle. Martin Luther.

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Speaker 1: It's like justification by faith is not the entire gospel.

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Speaker 1: It's only half of it. The most difficult or more

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Speaker 1: difficult is the doctrine of imputation. That's what Martin Luther said.

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Speaker 1: He said the most important word in the Protestant Reformation

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Speaker 1: is is imputation, is that Christ did not only die

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Speaker 1: to forgive our sins, but he also lived the life

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Speaker 1: we are supposed to live. So now we have to

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Speaker 1: choose what God desires, even though it's not going to

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Speaker 1: affect our salvation. That is absolutely incredible. Because it is

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Speaker 1: the only doctrine, and I have majored in religions, in

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Speaker 1: comparative theology, and I did a lot of theological studies.

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Speaker 1: I've never seen anything like this. It's completely, you know,

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Speaker 1: the stick and the carrot? It is the only idea

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Speaker 1: that literally takes the carrot and pushes it down your throat.

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Speaker 1: ate it. Now I want you to move after you

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Speaker 1: ate the carrot. There's no carrot now. So now I

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Speaker 1: want you to move. And that is why this radicality

424
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:56,020
Speaker 1: of the gospel, it was super difficult until today and

425
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: every day, until the day I meet the Lord. But

426
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:06,730
Speaker 1: also it is my comfort in this life. Because it

427
00:33:08,050 --> 00:33:13,110
Speaker 1: makes the relationship between me and God not about anything

428
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:21,380
Speaker 1: except the relationship itself. Christ is not my savior towards

429
00:33:21,580 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 1: something else. He is salvation itself. So he is the destination.

430
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: He's not the bridge that I cross to reach somewhere

431
00:33:33,180 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: where there is heaven. Many people ask, what is it

432
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: what heaven looks like? Who cares, man? It's going to

433
00:33:39,260 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: be like spending a night with, it's like spending a

434
00:33:45,660 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: night with someone you love for the first time after

435
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: 20 years of being apart. And that night is going

436
00:33:56,100 --> 00:33:59,980
Speaker 1: to be eternity. It's not going to change because knowing

437
00:34:00,020 --> 00:34:04,700
Speaker 1: God is a process that has no limits, no rules.

438
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: So anyway, Yeah, there's no comparison between Islam and Christianity,

439
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,779
Speaker 1: and that's why I don't really accept any invitations to

440
00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: go to these debates about, is it Christianity, is it Islam?

441
00:34:20,700 --> 00:34:27,180
Speaker 1: Come on, it is insulting to put Islam next to

442
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: Christianity and try to compare them or to argue which

443
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:40,290
Speaker 1: faith is... Christianity is superior to any other ideology in

444
00:34:40,330 --> 00:34:40,710
Speaker 1: the world.

445
00:34:43,330 --> 00:34:47,230
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's... I love that. I'm going to circle back

446
00:34:47,370 --> 00:34:49,010
Speaker 2: to that. I want to put a pin in that,

447
00:34:49,140 --> 00:34:53,180
Speaker 2: but I'd be really curious. This one-year journey, you kind

448
00:34:53,219 --> 00:34:54,939
Speaker 2: of hit a point where it sounds like you're saying

449
00:34:55,020 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: either somebody just has to be a non-Muslim Muslim, or

450
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,709
Speaker 2: if they take their faith really seriously... at some point

451
00:35:01,750 --> 00:35:05,170
Speaker 2: there's going to be this cognitive dissonance and this burden

452
00:35:05,190 --> 00:35:08,850
Speaker 2: that you experienced after a year. So you become a Christian.

453
00:35:09,450 --> 00:35:12,190
Speaker 2: What did you tell your family? Did you tell your friends?

454
00:35:12,310 --> 00:35:14,450
Speaker 2: Like what were those steps? How did that go?

455
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: Um, yeah, I was young and stupid and no wisdom

456
00:35:21,460 --> 00:35:25,540
Speaker 1: at all. So I started talking to everyone about all the, uh,

457
00:35:26,020 --> 00:35:29,620
Speaker 1: scandals of Muhammad and the Quran and the tradition. And, uh,

458
00:35:30,290 --> 00:35:35,970
Speaker 1: about how our understanding of Christianity was inaccurate, and that

459
00:35:36,030 --> 00:35:39,340
Speaker 1: got me in a lot of troubles. But thankfully, my father,

460
00:35:39,460 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 1: he was... He was... He's so curious. Like, until today,

461
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:52,089
Speaker 1: every day, if he calls me, he would be asking questions, questions, questions,

462
00:35:52,140 --> 00:35:56,910
Speaker 1: very curious about anything in the world. So his response

463
00:35:56,930 --> 00:35:59,310
Speaker 1: was not, oh, this is bad, or this is... He

464
00:35:59,330 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: was like... tell me more, tell me more, tell me more,

465
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: tell me more. And I didn't have troubles with my family,

466
00:36:11,820 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: except my mom. My mom became more religious to compensate

467
00:36:16,580 --> 00:36:26,259
Speaker 1: for the sins of her children because I certainly influenced

468
00:36:26,340 --> 00:36:32,649
Speaker 1: my siblings. And my mother... had to face the fact

469
00:36:32,690 --> 00:36:37,750
Speaker 1: that she was living with infidels under the same roof.

470
00:36:38,450 --> 00:36:43,049
Speaker 1: So that made her or pushed her towards Islam more

471
00:36:43,230 --> 00:36:50,580
Speaker 1: aggressively until today. But I had to leave Jordan because

472
00:36:50,780 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: I tried to seek support from the Christian community in Jordan,

473
00:36:56,340 --> 00:36:59,870
Speaker 1: but I didn't realize at the time that Christians in

474
00:36:59,910 --> 00:37:04,649
Speaker 1: Jordan or across the Islam court, they don't have the

475
00:37:04,690 --> 00:37:12,410
Speaker 1: liberty to help or to even baptize Muslims who convert

476
00:37:12,450 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 1: to Christianity until today, except evangelicals. Evangelicals, they are risk-takers

477
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:27,590
Speaker 1: because they are missionaries. but I went to an Orthodox church,

478
00:37:27,690 --> 00:37:30,590
Speaker 1: and the priest, he actually kicked me out of the church.

479
00:37:30,650 --> 00:37:33,830
Speaker 1: He started yelling at me. So I realized they're afraid.

480
00:37:34,390 --> 00:37:41,290
Speaker 1: They can't associate with someone like me. And the security,

481
00:37:43,090 --> 00:37:46,779
Speaker 1: the secret police, they met with me, and they threatened me,

482
00:37:48,390 --> 00:37:50,370
Speaker 1: And that group that I used to go to the

483
00:37:50,410 --> 00:37:56,710
Speaker 1: mosque with, at the beginning, they tried to reason with me.

484
00:37:57,550 --> 00:38:03,859
Speaker 1: But then when I was stubborn, I didn't listen to them.

485
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,580
Speaker 1: Or I provided a lot of counter arguments that just

486
00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:14,969
Speaker 1: crushed their entire belief system. So they started plotting to

487
00:38:15,530 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: harm me physically. So I had to leave Jordan and

488
00:38:19,860 --> 00:38:22,740
Speaker 1: I ended up in Lebanon. It is the only country

489
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 1: in the Middle East next to Israel that has some

490
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: sort of freedom. And I ended up living there for

491
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: 15 years. I joined the ministry. I led a global

492
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:40,220
Speaker 1: Christian organization as the regional director across the Middle East.

493
00:38:40,580 --> 00:38:44,660
Speaker 1: We planted churches all over the Middle East. He published

494
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:48,140
Speaker 1: a lot of books, translated and published a lot of

495
00:38:48,219 --> 00:38:52,510
Speaker 1: books because I founded a publishing house. I was fascinated

496
00:38:52,550 --> 00:38:56,300
Speaker 1: with Reformed theology. Probably I was among the first to

497
00:38:56,450 --> 00:39:00,850
Speaker 1: bring the Reformed faith to the Middle East. R.C. Sproul,

498
00:39:00,870 --> 00:39:06,570
Speaker 1: Timothy Keller, Jonathan Edwards, John Owen. I translated their books

499
00:39:06,690 --> 00:39:09,370
Speaker 1: and published them across our board. We started a movement.

500
00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:15,990
Speaker 1: And then... 2023, for security reasons, I had to leave

501
00:39:16,270 --> 00:39:17,860
Speaker 1: the Middle East permanently.

502
00:39:19,660 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: Now, I've got to ask slightly about this. I know

503
00:39:21,660 --> 00:39:23,380
Speaker 2: we wouldn't have time to go into it, but you

504
00:39:23,420 --> 00:39:26,810
Speaker 2: described certain arguments that you had that were crushing, to

505
00:39:26,910 --> 00:39:30,259
Speaker 2: use your word, to at least the Muslims themselves. you

506
00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: were engaging at that point at the mosque. If you

507
00:39:33,460 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 2: were going to make your argument against it, what were

508
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,030
Speaker 2: those arguments? Just maybe outline for us where you think

509
00:39:39,070 --> 00:39:40,790
Speaker 2: those weaknesses are, if you will.

510
00:39:43,610 --> 00:39:46,910
Speaker 1: There are too many things, but if I would give,

511
00:39:47,870 --> 00:39:51,250
Speaker 1: usually when I do trainings at churches, I teach them

512
00:39:51,270 --> 00:39:59,489
Speaker 1: a few things. Number one, Islam gets Christianity wrong all

513
00:39:59,530 --> 00:40:04,870
Speaker 1: the way. So in the Quran, the Christian trinity is God, Mary,

514
00:40:05,250 --> 00:40:09,980
Speaker 1: and Jesus. So this is number one. There is no

515
00:40:10,940 --> 00:40:14,540
Speaker 1: indication in the Quran that Allah understands what Christian trinity is.

516
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 1: Number two, the mission of Christ according to the Quran

517
00:40:19,780 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense because God prepared a prophet. His

518
00:40:26,420 --> 00:40:30,460
Speaker 1: name is Isa, Jesus, and sent him to this world

519
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:34,950
Speaker 1: in a miraculous way without a father and gave him

520
00:40:35,930 --> 00:40:42,950
Speaker 1: the power to conduct miracles that exclusive to God according

521
00:40:42,989 --> 00:40:49,060
Speaker 1: to the Quran. And then something happened and the Romans

522
00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: crucified someone and Christ has to run away and God

523
00:40:55,060 --> 00:41:01,770
Speaker 1: ascended him to heaven, according to the Quran again. And

524
00:41:02,390 --> 00:41:08,020
Speaker 1: after that, a billion people of Christians, they were misled

525
00:41:08,780 --> 00:41:12,950
Speaker 1: by that event. So it doesn't make sense. What in

526
00:41:12,989 --> 00:41:17,890
Speaker 1: the world did Christ, according to the Quran, came to do?

527
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: What did he come to do? The only logical conclusion

528
00:41:23,860 --> 00:41:28,800
Speaker 1: is that he came to mislead Christians for 700 years.

529
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,550
Speaker 1: Because Muslims would never be able to give you a

530
00:41:32,610 --> 00:41:37,950
Speaker 1: reasonable answer for why he came. Because if God had intended...

531
00:41:38,500 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: that Christ achieved something, then God failed because Christ did

532
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,240
Speaker 1: not achieve any good thing, according to Islam, except misleading Christians.

533
00:41:47,820 --> 00:41:51,509
Speaker 1: Until today, 2 billion people are still misled because of

534
00:41:52,330 --> 00:41:57,610
Speaker 1: Christ and that mission, which was special. No other prophet

535
00:41:57,830 --> 00:42:01,569
Speaker 1: had the same miracles. So these are just a couple

536
00:42:01,610 --> 00:42:05,259
Speaker 1: of things. The third one, I think this is important.

537
00:42:06,780 --> 00:42:14,049
Speaker 1: And this is fascinating. It's the virgin birth. Now, in Christianity,

538
00:42:14,110 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: when you read the Gospels, and the New Testament in

539
00:42:17,260 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: its entirety, you realize that no one's talking about the

540
00:42:22,380 --> 00:42:27,569
Speaker 1: virgin birth, except Matthew at the beginning, Luke. But after that,

541
00:42:27,650 --> 00:42:30,910
Speaker 1: no one is talking about it. Everyone believes that Jesus

542
00:42:30,989 --> 00:42:35,569
Speaker 1: is the son of Joseph. So, the virgin birth was

543
00:42:35,690 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: never used in the Christian faith as the role or

544
00:42:42,820 --> 00:42:46,820
Speaker 1: the function of the virgin birth was not to reflect

545
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,220
Speaker 1: God's strength. It was not a miracle that God wanted

546
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:57,450
Speaker 1: to demonstrate it through his power. It has a certain purpose,

547
00:42:57,530 --> 00:43:01,970
Speaker 1: and that purpose for Christ to be born without sin, right?

548
00:43:02,930 --> 00:43:07,780
Speaker 1: In Islam, the virgin birth is given as a way

549
00:43:07,860 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: for God to demonstrate his strength. But that is, I'm sorry,

550
00:43:14,580 --> 00:43:19,930
Speaker 1: that is stupid. Because if you want to demonstrate your strength,

551
00:43:20,950 --> 00:43:25,110
Speaker 1: you do something that people could not falsify easily. A

552
00:43:27,170 --> 00:43:33,750
Speaker 1: pregnant woman claims that she was impregnated by God, How

553
00:43:33,790 --> 00:43:36,669
Speaker 1: do you demonstrate your sin through that? Everyone called her

554
00:43:36,910 --> 00:43:43,569
Speaker 1: a prostitute or whatever the Quran, the word used. So

555
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:48,380
Speaker 1: what is the purpose of the virgin birth according to Islam?

556
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,460
Speaker 1: When you ask Muslims that question, it's like, please tell me.

557
00:43:51,900 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: If they say God wanted to demonstrate his strength, his powers, how? Everyone...

558
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: disbelieved Mary. So God's strength was not demonstrated. It was

559
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: actually the opposite. So apparently, Islam has no understanding of

560
00:44:11,260 --> 00:44:15,540
Speaker 1: why Jesus had to come from a woman without a father.

561
00:44:16,260 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: So these are the small things you can find scattered

562
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,819
Speaker 1: all over the Quran. There are many things like this.

563
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:29,700
Speaker 1: unfortunately I don't hear a lot of people using them

564
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:37,930
Speaker 1: but they're literally very helpful last one I know we

565
00:44:38,110 --> 00:44:40,109
Speaker 1: don't have time but last one I want to seize

566
00:44:40,130 --> 00:44:49,230
Speaker 1: the opportunity to share this Islam objects to the trinity

567
00:44:50,510 --> 00:44:54,100
Speaker 1: and to the incarnation I'm sorry there is incarnation in

568
00:44:54,180 --> 00:45:02,180
Speaker 1: Islam too And Christian incarnation is actually an upgrade of

569
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,209
Speaker 1: the Islamic incarnation. So it doesn't work because Islam came

570
00:45:05,390 --> 00:45:08,450
Speaker 1: after Christianity. It should be the upgrade. What is the

571
00:45:08,469 --> 00:45:14,700
Speaker 1: Islamic incarnation? You start with this question. You ask a Muslim,

572
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 1: can you swear by the Koran? Can you say that

573
00:45:21,739 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: I swear by the Koran? In Islam, you cannot swear

574
00:45:26,660 --> 00:45:30,739
Speaker 1: by anything except God. You cannot say anything like, I

575
00:45:30,780 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: swear by the prophet, I swear by this or that,

576
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:39,340
Speaker 1: nothing except God and the Quran. Why? Because the Quran

577
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: is the word of God incarnated in a book. The

578
00:45:45,660 --> 00:45:48,310
Speaker 1: Quran is the eternal word of God according to Islam.

579
00:45:49,870 --> 00:45:53,310
Speaker 1: And it came to our word and took a flesh

580
00:45:53,989 --> 00:45:59,989
Speaker 1: That flesh is paper and ink. So Christianity is the

581
00:46:00,050 --> 00:46:04,610
Speaker 1: eternal word of God incarnated in a flesh of a

582
00:46:05,210 --> 00:46:12,250
Speaker 1: human body, blood and flesh. So why would Islam object

583
00:46:12,290 --> 00:46:17,380
Speaker 1: to incarnation? It's there. So anyway, these are just a

584
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:17,880
Speaker 1: few things.

585
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,379
Speaker 2: That's fascinating and super helpful. Maybe tell me how you'd

586
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,180
Speaker 2: respond to this. I do sometimes on Instagram, and I'll

587
00:46:25,219 --> 00:46:28,630
Speaker 2: post them on YouTube short, just reaction videos. And it

588
00:46:28,670 --> 00:46:34,890
Speaker 2: was two, I think, somewhat influential Muslim apologists online. And

589
00:46:34,969 --> 00:46:38,110
Speaker 2: one of them starts off by saying, you know, look,

590
00:46:38,390 --> 00:46:41,529
Speaker 2: in Islam, we think Jesus was born a virgin. He

591
00:46:41,550 --> 00:46:48,489
Speaker 2: was sinless. He fulfilled prophecy. He did miracles. he is

592
00:46:48,590 --> 00:46:53,109
Speaker 2: considered the greatest prophet. And of course, his reasoning is

593
00:46:53,410 --> 00:46:57,189
Speaker 2: for primarily Christian audience to kind of minimize and say,

594
00:46:57,250 --> 00:47:00,830
Speaker 2: we're not that different. I suspect based on reading your

595
00:47:00,890 --> 00:47:03,930
Speaker 2: book that you would differ very strongly with that kind

596
00:47:03,969 --> 00:47:04,410
Speaker 2: of approach.

597
00:47:06,739 --> 00:47:10,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't stop there. They add that Jews hate

598
00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: Christ and they believe he's boiling in hell. So love us,

599
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:21,470
Speaker 1: hate Jews. It comes together as a package. Well, in Islam,

600
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 1: it's identity theft. That's it. It's not the same as Christ.

601
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: Christ was used, utilized to serve Muhammad. His divinity is

602
00:47:37,739 --> 00:47:43,700
Speaker 1: not believed. It's a sin. If you believe in the

603
00:47:43,739 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: divinity of Christ, you're going to hell. Christ came to

604
00:47:51,660 --> 00:47:56,299
Speaker 1: tell the word about Muhammad Christ is coming again to

605
00:47:56,380 --> 00:48:00,299
Speaker 1: break the cross and kill the pig doesn't make any

606
00:48:00,340 --> 00:48:03,510
Speaker 1: sense but still that's his mission when he comes back

607
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:08,950
Speaker 1: Christ is not your savior he's not your redeemer he's

608
00:48:08,989 --> 00:48:12,690
Speaker 1: not the Christ that you know so it is excuse

609
00:48:12,730 --> 00:48:19,470
Speaker 1: me it is absurd to believe that Christ in Islam

610
00:48:19,510 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 1: is the same Christ. Muslims don't respect their Christ. They

611
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:28,020
Speaker 1: respect a different version of Christ that is not your Christ.

612
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,260
Speaker 1: And there's a reason why, to serve the Islamic agenda. So,

613
00:48:34,330 --> 00:48:40,969
Speaker 1: on the other hand, we have 6,000 books in Jewish history,

614
00:48:41,170 --> 00:48:45,509
Speaker 1: and a couple rabbis, they called the guy who was responsible,

615
00:48:45,730 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: according to them, for killing them for 2,000 years, and

616
00:48:50,540 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 1: they described him as boiling in hell. So what? You

617
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: don't decide your attitude toward Jews based on what a

618
00:49:00,100 --> 00:49:05,450
Speaker 1: few rabbis said in the Talmud. No, Jews at least,

619
00:49:06,390 --> 00:49:09,989
Speaker 1: they were honest to say, they're honest today. They say,

620
00:49:10,030 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: we don't believe in Christ. They don't try to please you. Muslims,

621
00:49:14,660 --> 00:49:19,529
Speaker 1: they are deceiving you by using this language. Jews, they

622
00:49:19,550 --> 00:49:22,940
Speaker 1: just say... we don't believe in Christ. And excuse me,

623
00:49:23,140 --> 00:49:27,740
Speaker 1: you cannot condemn Jews alone. No one believes in Christ

624
00:49:27,780 --> 00:49:32,830
Speaker 1: except Christians. So stop acting as if when Jews don't

625
00:49:32,850 --> 00:49:35,950
Speaker 1: believe in Christ is like the worst thing in the world, because...

626
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:40,570
Speaker 1: Buddhists don't believe in Christ. Atheists don't believe in Christ.

627
00:49:40,620 --> 00:49:43,790
Speaker 1: So anyway, but this is like a political thing, the

628
00:49:43,890 --> 00:49:48,950
Speaker 1: openization of Christ to serve a political agenda. And I

629
00:49:48,989 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 1: wrote about this. I said Christ, when the crowds surrounded

630
00:49:55,340 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: him and tried to kidnap him to make him a king,

631
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: he fled the scene. He got away from them. Those

632
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: who chant Christ is king, Christ is king for political reasons,

633
00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 1: Christ is walking away from you. Because just as he

634
00:50:14,860 --> 00:50:20,180
Speaker 1: walked away from that crowd who wanted to make him

635
00:50:20,219 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: a king for political reasons, not because they cared about

636
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,850
Speaker 1: him personally, you are using the name of Christ for

637
00:50:26,910 --> 00:50:31,609
Speaker 1: political reasons, not because you care about him personally. So

638
00:50:32,350 --> 00:50:37,150
Speaker 1: keep Christ away from your politics. because the Christ for everyone.

639
00:50:37,790 --> 00:50:40,910
Speaker 1: And here I remember what Billy Graham said, what John

640
00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 1: Stead said about conscious knowledge of Christ. It's important. This

641
00:50:45,580 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: point is very important. Not only those who consciously know

642
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:54,899
Speaker 1: Christ belong to Christ. There are many people who don't

643
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:59,010
Speaker 1: have a conscious knowledge of Christ, but they belong to God.

644
00:50:59,950 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: Go read Acts and you will find them. You will

645
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,569
Speaker 1: find them in Cornelius. You will find them in Acts 16.

646
00:51:08,570 --> 00:51:10,649
Speaker 1: They belong to God, even though they don't know Christ.

647
00:51:10,730 --> 00:51:14,490
Speaker 1: So keep Christ away. It's not about what you say.

648
00:51:14,510 --> 00:51:20,989
Speaker 1: And how I described Christianity here with you, Sean, proves this.

649
00:51:21,410 --> 00:51:24,650
Speaker 1: It's not about what you think or your theological understanding.

650
00:51:24,730 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: It's about the sovereignty of God. So yeah, this is

651
00:51:27,660 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: like a message to keep Christ away from all of

652
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: this because this is really crazy what we have been

653
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:34,560
Speaker 1: seeing since October 7th.

654
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:37,890
Speaker 2: I'm going to come to your book in a minute,

655
00:51:37,910 --> 00:51:41,590
Speaker 2: but one more question. I was thinking about your Christian friend,

656
00:51:41,770 --> 00:51:43,850
Speaker 2: the way he spoke to you when you were, I think,

657
00:51:43,890 --> 00:51:47,850
Speaker 2: about 18, 19 years old. Like two-part question. Was he

658
00:51:47,870 --> 00:51:49,730
Speaker 2: just kind of talking off the top of his head

659
00:51:49,770 --> 00:51:53,379
Speaker 2: or was this a very strategic approach of meeting you

660
00:51:53,450 --> 00:51:57,100
Speaker 2: where you were at And just step by step leading you.

661
00:51:57,580 --> 00:52:00,820
Speaker 2: And how do you think Christians should engage their Muslim

662
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:02,040
Speaker 2: neighbors and Muslim friends?

663
00:52:04,469 --> 00:52:06,330
Speaker 1: No, my friend, as I told you, they took his

664
00:52:06,390 --> 00:52:09,290
Speaker 1: wife and his children from him. They put him in jail.

665
00:52:09,469 --> 00:52:19,100
Speaker 1: And then he had to denounce his conversion and repent

666
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,530
Speaker 1: in order to get his family back. So he repented

667
00:52:22,910 --> 00:52:24,969
Speaker 1: just to get them back, not because he believed any

668
00:52:25,210 --> 00:52:30,730
Speaker 1: of that. But I left Jordan and for 12 years

669
00:52:30,830 --> 00:52:34,370
Speaker 1: never heard from him or anything about him. And 12

670
00:52:34,370 --> 00:52:39,540
Speaker 1: years later, I met him again. And at that time,

671
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: I was the regional director of this Christian ministry, as

672
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: I said, and he became our national director in that country.

673
00:52:47,660 --> 00:52:51,730
Speaker 1: And we worked together for eight years. I was his boss,

674
00:52:51,870 --> 00:52:58,489
Speaker 1: even though he converted me. And 12 years later, he

675
00:52:59,690 --> 00:53:04,340
Speaker 1: became more courageous, more bold. He didn't care. And eventually,

676
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 1: he planted the church in his house in 100% Muslim area.

677
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: But of course, he had to get security.

678
00:53:15,260 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

679
00:53:16,739 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 1: But the government, they got bored. They got sick of him.

680
00:53:20,780 --> 00:53:28,310
Speaker 1: They tried everything possible, but they couldn't stop him. And

681
00:53:28,890 --> 00:53:34,570
Speaker 1: his brother fled to the UK way before this person

682
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: converted to Christianity. So he converted after his brother. His

683
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,839
Speaker 1: brother left Jordan in the 90s, and he was the

684
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:47,379
Speaker 1: first person who converted. How to engage Muslims? There are many,

685
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:53,819
Speaker 1: many books out there written by even former Muslims. But

686
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:58,550
Speaker 1: I believe that you need to see the word through

687
00:53:58,570 --> 00:54:02,930
Speaker 1: an Islamic lens. And this is what I try to do.

688
00:54:04,110 --> 00:54:06,210
Speaker 1: And what we are trying to do at my organization,

689
00:54:06,230 --> 00:54:11,840
Speaker 1: Ideological Defense Institute, ideicenter.org, we have a program for the

690
00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:16,540
Speaker 1: church called It's not about knowing a lot of information

691
00:54:17,020 --> 00:54:20,510
Speaker 1: about Islam. It's not like... You can go to ChatGPT

692
00:54:20,530 --> 00:54:22,250
Speaker 1: today and ChatGPT is going to give you all the

693
00:54:22,290 --> 00:54:24,690
Speaker 1: information you need about Islam. You can watch a lot

694
00:54:24,710 --> 00:54:28,210
Speaker 1: of videos on YouTube and understand Islam. You need more

695
00:54:28,250 --> 00:54:31,390
Speaker 1: than that. You need to see the word through the

696
00:54:31,469 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 1: eyes of a Muslim. And that is something not many

697
00:54:35,580 --> 00:54:43,219
Speaker 1: people are capable of delivering. Because... working with the church

698
00:54:43,260 --> 00:54:46,980
Speaker 1: for 15 years, coming from a Muslim background, I got

699
00:54:47,020 --> 00:54:51,340
Speaker 1: to see with my own eyes how incompetent the church

700
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:55,359
Speaker 1: is in dealing with people from a Muslim background. That's

701
00:54:55,450 --> 00:54:59,190
Speaker 1: why the majority of Muslims who convert to Christianity, they

702
00:55:00,270 --> 00:55:05,790
Speaker 1: go back to Islam after a while. Because the gap,

703
00:55:05,830 --> 00:55:09,770
Speaker 1: the cultural gap in the church, and especially in the West,

704
00:55:11,489 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: so The church, especially now, needs a lot of training,

705
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:23,430
Speaker 1: a lot of equipping and preparation at a time where

706
00:55:23,570 --> 00:55:31,230
Speaker 1: Islam is expanding. So that's why I started this ministry,

707
00:55:32,310 --> 00:55:35,049
Speaker 1: to help the church understand how to reach Muslims with

708
00:55:35,070 --> 00:55:39,110
Speaker 1: the gospel. But the church needs to act out of

709
00:55:40,450 --> 00:55:48,700
Speaker 1: realization that Christianity is not only about some eternal life

710
00:55:48,820 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: that we're going to leave this word to, but it's

711
00:55:53,140 --> 00:55:58,060
Speaker 1: about this word too. Christ taught us that your kingdom come.

712
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,339
Speaker 1: So Western civilization is the closest we got to the

713
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:07,350
Speaker 1: kingdom of God. With all its defects, because that is

714
00:56:07,650 --> 00:56:09,870
Speaker 1: the nature of the kingdom of God. It grows together,

715
00:56:10,110 --> 00:56:13,590
Speaker 1: the bad and the good, and eventually, The kingdom of God,

716
00:56:13,610 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 1: the manifestation of the kingdom of God will be here.

717
00:56:15,700 --> 00:56:19,259
Speaker 1: So the church has to defend the kingdom of God

718
00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: from evil ideologies. So don't focus only on being a

719
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:28,989
Speaker 1: delivery guy where you deliver individuals to heaven. That is

720
00:56:29,030 --> 00:56:34,430
Speaker 1: not Christianity. Christianity is about transformation. It's not about people

721
00:56:34,489 --> 00:56:38,710
Speaker 1: praying a prayer and going to heaven. That is paganism.

722
00:56:39,790 --> 00:56:43,390
Speaker 1: Christianity is about discipleship. You are not a savior. You're

723
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:46,029
Speaker 1: not called to save anyone, by the way. It's not

724
00:56:46,070 --> 00:56:49,810
Speaker 1: your job to save anyone. God is our savior. Your

725
00:56:49,930 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: job is to disciple people. If the church doesn't understand this,

726
00:56:54,390 --> 00:56:58,339
Speaker 1: because unfortunately, billions of dollars spent by the church every

727
00:56:58,380 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: year to save people, please, you cannot save anyone. You

728
00:57:03,060 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: cannot save yourself, let alone other people. So trust God

729
00:57:08,200 --> 00:57:12,779
Speaker 1: to save people. without your help, but God wants you

730
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:16,140
Speaker 1: to disciple. He cannot disciple the world without you. So

731
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:21,630
Speaker 1: that is something the church needs to learn in reaching

732
00:57:21,670 --> 00:57:24,770
Speaker 1: out to Muslim. It's not about converting them out of Islam.

733
00:57:25,530 --> 00:57:30,290
Speaker 1: That is not enough. It's about discipling them. And when

734
00:57:30,350 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: I say discipling them, it's about the biblical principles, the

735
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:40,820
Speaker 1: biblical foundation of what builds a civilization. Because God built

736
00:57:41,140 --> 00:57:43,700
Speaker 1: a civilization, and that civilization is the West.

737
00:57:45,660 --> 00:57:47,640
Speaker 2: Danny, I have so many questions for you. This has

738
00:57:47,660 --> 00:57:52,050
Speaker 2: been absolutely fascinating. But tell us a little about your book, Islam, Israel,

739
00:57:52,250 --> 00:57:56,430
Speaker 2: and the West, a former Muslim's analysis, and the organization

740
00:57:56,450 --> 00:57:57,150
Speaker 2: that you run today.

741
00:57:59,950 --> 00:58:03,350
Speaker 1: So my book, thankfully it has been a bestseller since

742
00:58:03,570 --> 00:58:07,310
Speaker 1: it came out on October 7, 2025. I wrote it

743
00:58:07,410 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: in response to the rebranding of Islamic Jihad in the

744
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:17,260
Speaker 1: West and in response to this attempt, this op, to

745
00:58:17,620 --> 00:58:24,110
Speaker 1: sever the link between Christians and Jews because that is

746
00:58:24,170 --> 00:58:27,830
Speaker 1: very dangerous. People don't understand how dangerous that is. If

747
00:58:27,910 --> 00:58:32,210
Speaker 1: you misunderstand the Arab-Israeli conflict, you will be blind to

748
00:58:32,330 --> 00:58:37,390
Speaker 1: see the threat coming your way. arriving at your shores,

749
00:58:38,530 --> 00:58:42,460
Speaker 1: you will be vulnerable. So I wrote this book to

750
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: explain what I just told you a minute ago to

751
00:58:48,620 --> 00:58:53,460
Speaker 1: help Christians see Islam from a Muslim perspective. So I

752
00:58:53,500 --> 00:58:56,430
Speaker 1: began by talking about how Islam was formed. What is

753
00:58:56,530 --> 00:59:00,689
Speaker 1: Islam really? Then I talked about why Islam is incompatible

754
00:59:00,710 --> 00:59:03,830
Speaker 1: with the West and what does that mean? on a

755
00:59:03,890 --> 00:59:08,250
Speaker 1: societal level, on a spiritual level, what does it mean

756
00:59:08,290 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: to replace the story that built the West with another story?

757
00:59:12,740 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: How is that going to affect you? Then I talked

758
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:20,630
Speaker 1: about the Abrahamic religions. I talked about why Islam doesn't

759
00:59:20,670 --> 00:59:26,090
Speaker 1: belong to Abraham. And so I believe this book is

760
00:59:26,130 --> 00:59:30,020
Speaker 1: very important. It's not because I wrote it, but I

761
00:59:30,060 --> 00:59:35,540
Speaker 1: believe that is crucial, that every American reads it. And

762
00:59:36,500 --> 00:59:39,540
Speaker 1: the organization I started after October 7, too, it's called

763
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:45,800
Speaker 1: Ideological Defense Institute. And I know that many people, many believers,

764
00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,510
Speaker 1: they look at politics as something, you know, nasty. They

765
00:59:49,550 --> 00:59:54,689
Speaker 1: don't want to be defiled by it. But unfortunately, that

766
00:59:54,750 --> 00:59:57,750
Speaker 1: is why the West is becoming weak and weak every day.

767
00:59:59,540 --> 01:00:07,419
Speaker 1: because the church gave birth to this civilization and then

768
01:00:07,500 --> 01:00:18,300
Speaker 1: the church left. So imagine you leave your children because

769
01:00:18,380 --> 01:00:23,580
Speaker 1: they're not behaving. That is what the church did to

770
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: the culture. The church realized, oh, the culture is nasty.

771
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: It's full of sinners. Let's isolate ourselves. You're a bad

772
01:00:33,860 --> 01:00:36,300
Speaker 1: parent if you do that. The church is not a

773
01:00:36,780 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: bad parent. The church should come back home and start

774
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:47,740
Speaker 1: defending the culture because even if there are, again, there

775
01:00:47,780 --> 01:00:50,460
Speaker 1: are a lot of crazy things, insane things happening in

776
01:00:50,500 --> 01:00:55,810
Speaker 1: the West, but this is the coast of freedom. And

777
01:00:56,250 --> 01:00:58,870
Speaker 1: it is a package deal. You don't get to be

778
01:00:58,910 --> 01:01:03,930
Speaker 1: selective when it comes to freedom. You take it as

779
01:01:03,990 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 1: a package, the good and the bad. The good was

780
01:01:07,780 --> 01:01:12,520
Speaker 1: born out of the biblical understanding of the founding fathers,

781
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:19,260
Speaker 1: of the people who built this nation. Now, these principles

782
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:24,990
Speaker 1: were secularized, severed from God, severed from the Bible. Today,

783
01:01:25,070 --> 01:01:29,250
Speaker 1: I published an article about how the left corrupted biblical morality.

784
01:01:30,350 --> 01:01:37,410
Speaker 1: They hijacked justice, mercy, being kind to strangers, peace. They

785
01:01:37,430 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: hijacked these principles. And now they are serving an opposite

786
01:01:43,100 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 1: purpose of what they were designed to serve. So without

787
01:01:48,220 --> 01:01:53,770
Speaker 1: the church, who's going to solve this problem? the disease

788
01:01:53,870 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: that has struck the culture. We need the church to

789
01:01:57,390 --> 01:02:01,100
Speaker 1: come back to politics. That is why IDI was established.

790
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,720
Speaker 1: And we have three programs. One, politics for policymakers to

791
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:10,850
Speaker 1: educate them, to help them preserve and defend Muslim civilization

792
01:02:11,190 --> 01:02:15,790
Speaker 1: based on their biblical understanding. And to the church, helping

793
01:02:15,830 --> 01:02:18,330
Speaker 1: them understand Islam and how to reach out to Muslims.

794
01:02:19,170 --> 01:02:22,660
Speaker 1: And to the public, just public education about Islam and

795
01:02:22,900 --> 01:02:25,060
Speaker 1: ideological threats facing the West.

796
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:30,730
Speaker 2: Danny Bermawi, you are a remarkable person. I thoroughly enjoyed

797
01:02:30,770 --> 01:02:33,070
Speaker 2: this and I've been looking forward to this conversation for

798
01:02:33,090 --> 01:02:36,190
Speaker 2: a while. Your book is fascinating and it sounds like

799
01:02:36,230 --> 01:02:39,540
Speaker 2: your organization now, there's a political piece to it, but

800
01:02:39,580 --> 01:02:43,340
Speaker 2: your story and your training in theology and your heart

801
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:46,710
Speaker 2: for the lost comes through as well. So I'd recommend

802
01:02:46,750 --> 01:02:50,550
Speaker 2: people pick up and read and wrestle with, as we

803
01:02:50,590 --> 01:02:55,490
Speaker 2: talked about, Islam, Israel, and the West. Danny, thanks for

804
01:02:55,510 --> 01:02:56,330
Speaker 2: coming on. This is great.

805
01:02:57,260 --> 01:02:58,800
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

806
01:02:59,440 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 2: Friends, before you click away, make sure you hit subscribe.

807
01:03:02,260 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 2: We've got some other conversations coming up just like this.

808
01:03:05,300 --> 01:03:07,580
Speaker 2: If you have a guest that you want me to interview,

809
01:03:07,640 --> 01:03:11,390
Speaker 2: somebody fascinating. I heard Danny's story on another podcast and

810
01:03:11,410 --> 01:03:14,430
Speaker 2: was like, whoa, gotta have him here. Let me know.

811
01:03:15,250 --> 01:03:16,750
Speaker 2: We'd love to have you study with us at Taub

812
01:03:16,770 --> 01:03:20,380
Speaker 2: School of Theology. Come study apologetics online or in person.

813
01:03:20,410 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 2: We'd love to have you in classes on the problem

814
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 2: of evil, the resurrection, engaging culture and evangelism today. It

815
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 2: would be a treat to have you. We also have

816
01:03:29,620 --> 01:03:31,780
Speaker 2: a certificate program I haven't mentioned in a while that

817
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 2: if you're not ready for a master's program, below is

818
01:03:33,700 --> 01:03:36,010
Speaker 2: a big discount where you can walk through and learn

819
01:03:36,050 --> 01:03:40,169
Speaker 2: how to defend your faith, including some lectures on Islam. Danny,

820
01:03:40,190 --> 01:03:41,630
Speaker 2: we'll do it again. Thanks again, my friend.

821
01:03:41,650 --> 01:03:43,890
Speaker 1: Thank you.

822
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,260
Speaker 2: Hey friends, if you enjoyed this show, please hit that

823
01:03:47,340 --> 01:03:50,260
Speaker 2: follow button on your podcast app. Most of you tuning

824
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,620
Speaker 2: in haven't done this yet, and it makes a huge

825
01:03:52,700 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 2: difference in helping us reach and equip more people and

826
01:03:55,500 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 2: build community. And please consider leaving a podcast review. Every

827
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 2: review helps. Thanks for listening to The Sean McDowell Show,

828
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:07,150
Speaker 2: brought to you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University,

829
01:04:07,230 --> 01:04:11,530
Speaker 2: where we have on-campus and online programs in apologetics, spiritual formation,

830
01:04:11,590 --> 01:04:14,150
Speaker 2: marriage and family, Bible, and so much more. We would

831
01:04:14,190 --> 01:04:17,140
Speaker 2: love to train you to more effectively live, teach, and

832
01:04:17,200 --> 01:04:19,980
Speaker 2: defend the Christian faith today. And we will see you

833
01:04:20,100 --> 01:04:21,610
Speaker 2: when the next episode drops.