1 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: Life Audio. This is Donna Jones and you are listening 2 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: to That's just what I needed. Hey, friend, if you've 3 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: ever been in a conversation where you've walked away thinking, Wow, 4 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: that was just what I needed. You know how life 5 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: giving that can be, Well, that's what this podcast is 6 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: all about. We're women who want to know, love, and 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,640 Speaker 1: follow God in our real lives, but sometimes wonder just 8 00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: how to do it. So each week we'll talk about 9 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: what following God looks like in the midst of daily 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: demands and crazy cultural chaos. Because this isn't just what 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: we need, it's actually exactly what we need. If you've 12 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: ever gone through a tough season of life, or if 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: you're going through one right now, or if you know 14 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: someone who is and you needed someone to help you 15 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: navigate that season so that you have and hope you 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:05,280 Speaker 1: are going to love this episode. In fact, it's going 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: to be just what you needed. Welcome to the podcast today. 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: I am so glad you're here. Boy, oh boy, do 19 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: I have a helpful, rich, wonderful conversation in store for you. 20 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: But before we jump in, I wanted to just say, 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: have a new year. I'm so glad that you are here. 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: I want to just make this space a place where 23 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: we connect and you get just what you needed. And 24 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: I will try to continue to provide content that is 25 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: just what I needed, because I feel like if it's 26 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: what I needed, it's probably what you need too, because 27 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: you know, we're all in this thing called life together 28 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: and we are not so different from each other, no 29 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: matter our age, or our stage or our season in life. 30 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: Life just kind of comes at us all, doesn't it. 31 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: And so we're going to chat about that today. But 32 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: I wanted to remind you that if you don't subscribe 33 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: to this podcast, why don't you do that right now? 34 00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: It's going to be a great year, and you don't 35 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,440 Speaker 1: want to miss a single episode. And if you don't 36 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: follow me on social media, connect with me at Donna A. Jones. 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: I would love to connect with you there. You can 38 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:08,959 Speaker 1: also just connect with me on my website. I have 39 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: a newsletter that I send out Donna Jones dot Org, 40 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: lots of free resources, all that kind of fun stuff. 41 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: And I would just love to connect with you in 42 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: so many ways so that we can encourage one another 43 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: in our walk with Jesus. Well, let's turn the corner 44 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: and help me welcome my guest, doctor Clay Jones and 45 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: his wonderful wife, author Jennie Jones. Well, Clay and Janie, 46 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: welcome to the podcast. 47 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 2: Thank you Donna for having us. 48 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: Oh I am so glad you have been here before 49 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: and so you are back again because you have a 50 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: brand new book that is just coming out. Tell us 51 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: the title of this book. 52 00:02:50,919 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 2: The title of the book is how does God use 53 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 2: suffering for our good? 54 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: Yes? 55 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 2: And the subtitle is living with hope while making sense 56 00:02:59,400 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: of life? 57 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: Oh? Okay, that subtitle is golden. Say it again, Clay, 58 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: won't you to say it again? Because it's so good. 59 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 2: Living with hope while making sense of life. 60 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: Gosh, isn't that what we're all trying to do, especially 61 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: when things go haywire and we're suffering and it's like 62 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: why is this happening? And what do I do? And Gosh, 63 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: if there was ever a book that's needed, it is 64 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: this book. I'm so excited that you guys have written it. 65 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: I love it. Okay, So before we jump in, this 66 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,839 Speaker 1: podcast is going to be a lifeline for so many 67 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: people already know that, but for those of you who 68 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: don't know, who maybe haven't heard Clay and Genie I 69 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: want to let my listening friends know that you're gonna 70 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: love them specifically because I love them because they are 71 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: not only professional friends, they are personal friends. They attend 72 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: our church or my husband is the fast Genie and 73 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: I both lead women's ministry Bible study together and so 74 00:03:56,160 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: this is like a really cool partnership. So I'm really 75 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: really happy on a personal level that you guys are 76 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: here and to share connect Friend A with Friend C. 77 00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,240 Speaker 1: And I'm kind of the middle man friend B connecting 78 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: connecting all my listening friends with you guys. So this 79 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: book the topic of suffering, it's necessary, but like who 80 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: wants to tackle it? So why did you guys decide 81 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: to tackle this topic? 82 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 3: Look, I started on it first, so I'll let him answer. 83 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,719 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I've I've published a book entitled Why 84 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: does God Allow Evil? And I'm thankful to say that's 85 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: done very well. And then i published a book on 86 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: death entitled Immortal And so I've got a book on evil, 87 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: and I've got a book on on why God allows evil, 88 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 2: and I've got a book on how to overcome the 89 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 2: fear of death. And it just kind of made sense 90 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: to me. Well, sheesh, I had to write on suffering. 91 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: So I've got a book on evil, suffering and death 92 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: because I felt like, you know, I've got some understanding. 93 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: Little did I know when I started writing it, because 94 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: I started writing it several years ago that a couple 95 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: of years after I started writing it, I ended up 96 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 2: finding out that I had termal well, not well, not termal. Yeah, 97 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,799 Speaker 2: it is in a sense terminal cancer. The good news 98 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: is is my immune system is keeping the cancer at 99 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 2: bay right now. You know, it's quite a shock to 100 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 2: our systems. And Jeanie and I, you know, came up 101 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: with points seven points on how to we help each other. 102 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 2: And then Genie was finishing another book, and that's. 103 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 3: When I jumped in because I wanted to share my 104 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: stories and my thoughts as well, and so this was 105 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 3: a book we wanted to do together. But I was 106 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 3: busy with my last book, so I jumped in a 107 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 3: little bit later. 108 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: Okay, that is really powerful because when one person in 109 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: a family suffers, by default, the spouse suffers, the children suffer, 110 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: the parents suffer, I mean, the siblings stuff, like everybody suffers. 111 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: So the fact that you two have written this together 112 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: is unique and really powerful. I love that, So tell 113 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: us to Clay, you kind of alluded to some of 114 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: the stuff, right, like how you're going to became a 115 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 1: quainted was suffering your terminal cancer diagnosis. What are some 116 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: of the other things that you all have experienced in 117 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: your life. 118 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: Well, I've had cancer, the same cancer before twenty two 119 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,919 Speaker 2: years ago. I'm not in any pain now, none, But 120 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 2: twenty two years ago I was in a lot of pain, 121 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 2: tremendous amount of pain, to the point where I really 122 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,679 Speaker 2: couldn't sleep. In fact, I stopped sleeping upstairs with Gene 123 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: because I was waking up and getting up and doing 124 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 2: stuff so often. So and then we had five miscarriages, 125 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 2: experienced five miscarriages, weren't able to have kids. We took 126 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: in abused foster children. 127 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, difficult, difficult. So you all and even as we're 128 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 1: recording this, Clay, you are getting ready to have heart surgery, 129 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 1: like in six days from now, when. 130 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: That's right Wednesday, I'm having open heart surgery. 131 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, so like six days from when we're recording this. 132 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: So you have a wide breadth of experiencing different forms 133 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: of suffering. And I think that's also really important too, 134 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: because you can just relate on so many different levels. 135 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: But as you've watched through this. See this is what 136 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,679 Speaker 1: I have observed. You've been simultaneously very authentic and real 137 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: about what you all have journeyed through. But the hope 138 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: that I have witnessed in you too, and some of 139 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: the tools that you just by necessity have come up 140 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: with to hang on to your faith and hang on 141 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: to hope, I mean, they're really revolutionary. So share some 142 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: of those seven truths that you all have come up 143 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: with in your journey through suffering. 144 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 2: The first one is obvious, I think to every Christian, 145 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: and that is God loves us. 146 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 3: But how we say it to each other is like 147 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 3: this I. 148 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: Will say to Gene, I'll say, and this is some 149 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: people are going to think this sounds really corny, kind 150 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: of dopey, But this is how we actually talk to 151 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: each other. Is I'll say to Jan the Lord loves 152 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: Genie Jones and claybe Jones. 153 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 3: And then I say, the Lord does love Genie Jones 154 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 3: and Klavy Jones. And that really personalizes it and it 155 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 3: reminds us, okay it. Things might be really really hard 156 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 3: right now, but it's okay because God loves Jemmie Jones 157 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: and Klavy Jones and the personalization really helps. 158 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: Yes, and you know, the personalization and the vocalization. Yes, yes, yes, 159 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: that you say that out loud, because even as you 160 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: were speaking that, there was something that just touched my 161 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: heart and I was just thinking, okay for me to 162 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: say God loves Donna Jones, I mean, there's that's like, 163 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,319 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, that's powerful. So I want to encourage 164 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: your listening right now, a listening friend, I want you 165 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: just to say, out loud, God loves and insert your name, 166 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 1: just pause for a second, and I just want you 167 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: to say that out loud because that is a really 168 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: powerful truth. And like you all said, it's the number 169 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: one thing that you say, probably because it's the number 170 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: one thing we question when we're going through suffering. Am 171 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: I right? Yeah, So that's number one. Gosh, that's powerful. Okay, 172 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: So what else? 173 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 2: No? Number two is everyone is going to go through 174 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 2: this and we'll see I'll say every I'll look at you, 175 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: I'll go everyone's going to go through this. And the 176 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:15,679 Speaker 2: first time I had cancer and she'll say everyone. 177 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: Yeah. 178 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 2: And the first time I had cancer. Twenty two years ago, 179 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: I was walking down a hallway about to get an 180 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: MRI over at Mission Hospital, and I said to the Lord, Lord, 181 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: why me. I wasn't complaining. I really wasn't. I wasn't 182 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 2: going why are you doing this? I was why me? 183 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 2: You know, I was forty seven, and I said, Lord, 184 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 2: why me? And the words came to mind immediately. Everyone's 185 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: going to go through this. And I don't think that's 186 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: very comforting to people that aren't suffering right now, But 187 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: when you're suffering and you go, you know what, I'm 188 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 2: not alone. Everybody's going through this kind of thing. Everyone 189 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: is going to walk down a doctor's hallway wondering if 190 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: they're going to get life ending news. Everyone is. So 191 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: it may sound strange, it really helped me to go, 192 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 2: you know what, I'm not alone. This is everybody's going 193 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 2: through this kind of thing. 194 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 3: One day, when Clay was having a biopsy done at UCI, 195 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 3: I was outside and they had a nice little area 196 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 3: with grass and trees and benches and stuff, and I 197 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 3: was reading Hebrews twelve, which just follows the Hall of 198 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 3: Faith in the previous chapter, and I thought, you know, 199 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 3: all those witnesses there, whether they can see me now 200 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:25,959 Speaker 3: or not, I don't know, but all those witnesses of 201 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 3: people that are with God now and they've been faithful 202 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 3: to them. If they can see me, they're cheering me on. 203 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 3: And of the women who were there, I thought the 204 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 3: majority of them had husbands that got sick and faced 205 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 3: death before they did. And I thought, knowing that everybody 206 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 3: has to go through this, and that most women have 207 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 3: to go through a time of seeing their husbands whom 208 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 3: they love go through health issues, that just really comforted me. 209 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: I thought, Yeah, and if they're watching, they're cheering me on, 210 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 3: and I can do it. They did it, I can 211 00:10:58,520 --> 00:10:58,839 Speaker 3: do it. 212 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: Okay. That is so beautiful to just find comfort in 213 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: the fact that I'm not the only one. I want 214 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 1: to piggyback on something you said, Clay, because it's really true. 215 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: That's super comforting when you're suffering. It's not super comforting 216 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: when you're not suffering, because you're like, no, I want 217 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: to come back to that because I think that's an 218 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,760 Speaker 1: important thing we need to address. Is just our whole 219 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,160 Speaker 1: mindset around this. But okay, so walk us through. So 220 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 1: that's one. Two, give us a few more. 221 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,600 Speaker 2: Three is I'll say to Gene, God, who is going 222 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,720 Speaker 2: to work? It always works every hard thing out for 223 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: our good. 224 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 3: Always, everything always has and always will. 225 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 2: We say that to each other like that a. 226 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 3: Lot, particularly when we've just gotten bad news. That's when 227 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 3: we need to say it over and over again. It's 228 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 3: a good reminder, and we have we keep truth journals, 229 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 3: and one of the things in our truth journals is 230 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 3: a list of the times where God worked hard things 231 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: out for our good that we can go back through 232 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 3: them and go, yeah, remember this, remember this, remember this, 233 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: And that's what the Psalms teach us to do. Remember 234 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 3: when God rescued you before, and now that puts your 235 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 3: hope in him because you know he's going to rescue 236 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 3: you this time. 237 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: Oh okay, So how does that because I suspect there's 238 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: a link with doing that and finding hope. So how 239 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:26,200 Speaker 1: does that help you find hope? 240 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 2: Well, I think, like as June was saying, you know, 241 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: in our truth journals, when I go back and look 242 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 2: at how God has delivered me in the past and 243 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 2: how He's taken hard things and worked them out for 244 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: our good. One of the things I'll just give you 245 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 2: a very recent example, well in the last two years. Recent. 246 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 2: But although thankfully the Lord is keeping my cancer at bay, 247 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 2: my immune system is keeping my cancer at bay. But 248 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 2: we wanted me to get into a clinical trial, but 249 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 2: my heart was not quite as close, but not quite 250 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 2: up there. So now we're but anyway, we had to 251 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 2: a couple of sets, several sets of MRIs. And a 252 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: doctor who the Lord brought over from Harvard is at 253 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: Cedar Sinai and he was treating one of the doctors 254 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 2: treating me, and he says, you know, he says, do 255 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: not get into a clinical trial. He says, your immune 256 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 2: system is keeping your cancer at bay and it would 257 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: only be harmful and they would think that the clinical 258 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: trial was working. And he says, don't do it. And 259 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 2: I sit there and I go, you know, we were 260 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 2: disappointed that we didn't get into this clinical trial. Now 261 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 2: we look back and go, wow, the Lord really worked 262 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 2: that out for our good. 263 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: Okay, so interesting. So he was protecting you because he 264 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: had the information you didn't have at that point. Wow, okay, 265 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 1: that's really interesting. 266 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 267 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 268 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: And then the next thing we say to each other, 269 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: many have honored God through tougher suffering than we're going through. 270 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 2: And that is huge too, that's huge. 271 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,560 Speaker 3: Well, you usually follow it up with I'm sitting in 272 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 3: a stinking dungeon being tortured. 273 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, on the verge of being tortured to death. A 274 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: lot of Christians have been tortured to death because they wouldn't, 275 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 2: you know, bow to Caesar or you know. I mean 276 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 2: they converted in Afghanistan and became Christians and left Islam. 277 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: I mean they're tortured to death. I'm not being tortured 278 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 2: to death. I'm not sitting in a prison or a 279 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 2: shipping container or somewhere waiting for them to set me 280 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 2: on fire. And these people, though, that have gone through that, 281 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,480 Speaker 2: they've honored God through it, and if they can honor 282 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 2: God through it, then so can I. 283 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 3: That keeps you from being entitled, se right. Sometimes people 284 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 3: without thinking of it, when they first start to enter 285 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 3: a period of suffering or hardship, they think, well, this 286 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 3: shouldn't be happening. I'm supposed to have this perfect, happy 287 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 3: life when I came to christ and they start to 288 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 3: feel entitled, that's a lie that keeps them from growing 289 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 3: and showing from having hope, the hope that they need 290 00:14:58,600 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 3: to have. 291 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: I sit there and I go, I don't have it 292 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 2: as bad as many Christians have had it throughout the ages, 293 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 2: and so that keeps me kind of like, okay, so 294 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: don't feel sorry for yourself. 295 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 1: Puts things in perspective. That's pretty huge because I'm thinking, now, 296 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: you know my own self when I've encountered suffering, and 297 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: I tend to lose perspective. I mean, I think we 298 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: all do if we're not proactive. What I love about 299 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: these seven things and I want to have you continue 300 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: because they're so good, is because when we go through suffering, 301 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: I mean, there's just like emotional ramifications and psychological ramifications 302 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: and spiritual ramifications and physical I mean, it just is 303 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: like so all consuming. Sometimes we don't see things clearly 304 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: or think clearly or feel clearly. And I love that 305 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: you have come up with these seven because it kind 306 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: of takes you're out of control brain and emotions and 307 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: everything that goes on. It's like, okay, let's just here's 308 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 1: some things that here's some truths we can go back 309 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: to that we can hang our hat on and get 310 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: ourselves grounded again. 311 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 2: We have to force our minds to focus on the truth. 312 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: Every thought captives that's right, yes, oh my goodness, which 313 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: son's so great. Take every thought captive to the obedience 314 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 1: of Christ. But the question is, okay, how do I 315 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: do that? And you coming up with these seven truth statements. 316 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: It really is like, Okay, this is how you do it, 317 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: and this is how you are doing it in the 318 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: midst of current suffering. So it's not just them pie 319 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: in the sky thing that you came up with apart 320 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: from suffering. It's like what you do in the midst 321 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: of it. I love that, Okay, So what's the next one. 322 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: The next one is number five is we don't know 323 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 2: what tomorrow will bring. 324 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 3: That is such an important one. I used to have 325 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 3: the belief that when something you know tentatively awful was 326 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 3: coming up. In fact, the first time that Clay had 327 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 3: cancer twenty two years ago, I thought I had to 328 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 3: pray over every possible future to the point of having peace. 329 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:58,240 Speaker 3: And that was terrible. That was a terrible idea, and 330 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 3: I had to stop and real no, no, I only 331 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 3: need to pray over today. I need to pray to 332 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 3: be faithful over today's challenges. Because the various futures were contradictory. 333 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 3: They couldn't all happen. So I was trying to have 334 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 3: faith for something that wasn't even going to happen, and 335 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 3: I just needed to have the faith for today's trials. 336 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 3: And so that was really big. 337 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 2: Mark Twain put it. He says, you know, he said, 338 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 2: I've suffered a lot in this life, most of which 339 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 2: never happened. And that's so true. You can just suffer 340 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 2: over what if this happens or that happens, or and 341 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: most of them never happened, so you don't know what 342 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 2: tomorrow will bring. The next one is focus on Jesus 343 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 2: and the race set before us is you know, one 344 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 2: of the principles there is Jesus calls Peter to walk 345 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 2: on the water. He says, hey, can I come to you? 346 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 2: And Jesus sure, And he's walking on the water and 347 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,399 Speaker 2: Peter starts looking around, and it says, and when he 348 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 2: saw the wind, he began to sink, and Jesus, of 349 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,160 Speaker 2: course reaches out his hand and pulls him up and says, 350 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:03,959 Speaker 2: why did you do why did you doubt? In other words, 351 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: Peter needed to keep looking at Jesus. And I'll tell 352 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: you something I say to the Lord all the time, 353 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 2: I'm coming to be with you, Jesus. I'm coming to 354 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: be with you, And just force my mind my thoughts 355 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 2: to be about I'm going to come and be with Jesus. 356 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 2: Is not enough to say Okay, I won't look at 357 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 2: these circumstances. You need to look at something else. Otherwise 358 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 2: it'd be like, don't think about pink elephants. Well, the 359 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 2: way you stop thinking about pink elephants is you think 360 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 2: about blue elephants. But the way you stop thinking about 361 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: the various kinds of suffering that could be coming upon 362 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 2: you as you look to Jesus and change your mind 363 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 2: so that you are now thinking his thoughts and thinking 364 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 2: about him, and that you're going to be with him. 365 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 3: And the purpose of this light is not to live 366 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: a long time and to have a lot of fun 367 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 3: and a lot of vacations. It's to do whatever it 368 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: is God sets before us to do until we get 369 00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 3: to Heaven to be with him. 370 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: And that leads to the last point. We're going to 371 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 2: be together forever, you know, that's the ultimate hope of 372 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: the Christian And of course, if eternity is true, and 373 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: of course your husband and you believe Jesus really was 374 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 2: raised from the dead, If Jesus really was raised from 375 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 2: the dead, then eternity is true, and we really are 376 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 2: going to live forever and ever. Janie and I are 377 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 2: going to be together forever. We may not be married, 378 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 2: but we're not going to forget the existence we have 379 00:19:26,480 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: here on earth, and we're going to be with each 380 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 2: other forever. And that's the ultimate hope of the Christian 381 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 2: And if eternity is true, it dwarfs our suffering to insignificance. 382 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: That's really interesting that you bring that up, Clay. You 383 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 1: actually the last couple of points are things that I 384 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 1: have kind of processed and experienced, and one of them 385 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: is when you said tomorrow has enough time, you know, 386 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: don't worry about tomorrow, basically, just like focus on today. 387 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,919 Speaker 1: And when my dad was in the last days of 388 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: his life, that verse that Jesus said, do not worry 389 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: about tomorrow. Each day has enough trouble of its own. 390 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: For some reason, the Holy Spirit just kept bringing that 391 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,640 Speaker 1: verse in my mind, don't worry about tomorrow. Each day 392 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: has enough trouble of its own, and I'd be like, okay, 393 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,240 Speaker 1: just one day at a time. And that was so 394 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 1: helpful to me in a really powerful way. But my 395 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: dad did eventually pass away. He's with Jesus right now. 396 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 1: But before he passed away, he was telling us, and 397 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: this was maybe a couple of years before he went 398 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,480 Speaker 1: to be with the Lord but he was talking about 399 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: when his own mom passed away, and he said he 400 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: was walking around the block and he was crying and 401 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: just kind of talking to the Lord and praying. And 402 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 1: my dad, of course not a crier. I never saw 403 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: him cry, but he was, you know, privately having this 404 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: conversation with the Lord. And he said he felt like 405 00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: the Lord said to him, my dad's name was don Don, 406 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: Heaven's the goal. Your mother reached the goal. And he said, 407 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: for some reason, that was just like the biggest awha 408 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: moment for him, And he said, I stopped crying and 409 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: he goes and i't cry after that because I just 410 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: kept thinking, Oh, I forgot, Heaven's the goal. So when 411 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: he passed away, that was so comforting to me to think, like, okay, 412 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 1: wait a minute, Donna, that's the goal. He reached the goal. 413 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 1: And then to your point, and then someday we'll be 414 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: together forever. Just a temporary separation that just gives such hope. 415 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 2: They've gotten somewhere. The false teaching that we're not going 416 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 2: to know each other in heaven, What a terrible, terrible, 417 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: terrible thing that would be. I like the kid, I 418 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 2: say so, the scripture says again and again, and they 419 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 2: were taken to be with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and 420 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,879 Speaker 2: I kid around say, are they the only three people 421 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 2: we're going to know in heaven? We're not going to 422 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 2: know anybody else. 423 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: Right, We're going to know each other. That's exactly right. 424 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 2: As GK. Chesterd And put it. We're not going to 425 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: be stupider in heaven than we are on earth. And 426 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 2: I like that, And it's true. 427 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 3: People are using a verse from Isaiah that says the 428 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 3: former things will not be remembered. The need in context right, 429 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 3: The verse before points out that it's God who will 430 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 3: not remember the former things. And when scripture says that 431 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 3: God will not remember the former things, it doesn't mean 432 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 3: that he loses his omniscience. It means that he's not 433 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 3: going to bring those things to mind in order to 434 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 3: punish them. So he was giving them hope, saying there 435 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 3: won't be any more punishment in the new heaven and earth. 436 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 2: And even more than that, which is interesting, the former 437 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: things will not be remembered, is we Christians are not 438 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 2: We're not former things, Colonel Beans. I'm never going to 439 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 2: be a former thing. Since I'm in Jesus, we are 440 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 2: living together forever and ever. And that starts now when 441 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,800 Speaker 2: it says the former things won't be remembered, Well, that 442 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 2: doesn't apply to us because we're not in the category 443 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 2: of former things in heaven. 444 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: So okay, we just went see your professor, Clay. You 445 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: took us way deep a Bible teacher, Jeanie, you took 446 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: us way deep. Okay, So I'm gonna try to corner 447 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: a little bit here because we've been talking about heaven 448 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: and suffering that you know could potentially lead to death. 449 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: But the reality is most of our suffering here is 450 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 1: not of the terminal nature like right now. So somebody 451 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,639 Speaker 1: is listening to this and they're suffering, but it's a 452 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: different way. So to talk to that person, what would 453 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: you want that person to know about, maybe why they're suffering, 454 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: If they're thinking, why is this happening? What you would 455 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: want them to know about how they can get through 456 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,199 Speaker 1: this suffering with hope or handle the suffering. Talk to 457 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: that person that's enduring a different kind of a suffering. 458 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 2: Well, one of the biggest things to keep in mind, 459 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 2: and it relates to the point about God will work 460 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 2: all things for our good. We actually have two chapters 461 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 2: on that in our book. Lots of examples and lots 462 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: of examples, but the only way anybody grows up in Christ, 463 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 2: which is the most important thing of all. Because right, 464 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 2: if we're going to live forever and ever and ever 465 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 2: with Jesus, if we are, and of course I believe 466 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 2: that we are. I mean, I'm doing that in the 467 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 2: form of an argument. But if we are going to 468 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 2: live forever, then that dwarfs to insignificance. Are suffering here. 469 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 2: But here's the key to suffering. Now, suffering is what 470 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: makes us christ Like. You wish that it weren't so 471 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: you wish that you could become like Jesus slaw you're 472 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 2: sitting on the beach or having a nice meal somewhere. 473 00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: But that's not where maturity comes from. Maturity comes from suffering. 474 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 2: And once you begin to realize that, like Paul says 475 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 2: in Romans five, he says, and we rejoice in our sufferings. 476 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 2: Why why in the world would Paul say that? Because 477 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 2: suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces 478 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 2: what produces hope. So but that occurs through suffering, so 479 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: we rejoice in it. And objectively, I know Christianity is 480 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 2: true because Jesus really did die on the cross, he 481 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 2: really was raised from the dead, and that's a historical fact. Subjectively, 482 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: I know Christianity is true because I've seen him take 483 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 2: suffering in our lives and turn it into our good 484 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,880 Speaker 2: and make me more like Jesus, make us both more 485 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: like Jesus. And he's making us both more like Jesus 486 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 2: through suffering. Through suffering, not through sitting on the beach 487 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 2: I wish, but through suffering makes me go. You know, 488 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: this Christianity thing, it's true. This is the real deal. 489 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 2: I really am. We really are being conformed to the 490 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 2: image of Christ. But that comes through suffering. And so 491 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 2: my encouragement is God is forming. If somebody says I'm suffering, 492 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,000 Speaker 2: God is using this to make you like him, and 493 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 2: like it or not, there's no other. The only way 494 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: that happens is through suffering, not through just having fun times. 495 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: Which again to the point that I was making before. 496 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:52,120 Speaker 1: If you're not in suffering, then the response is like, yeah, 497 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to go with that 498 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: suffering in order to be like Christ. I mean, you 499 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: know that that's a real thing. 500 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 2: No, it is a real thing. Then all I can 501 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 2: say is if you are a real Christian, you need 502 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: to keep eternity in view and realize that there's nothing 503 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 2: more important than being formed in the image of Christ 504 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: for your eternity. And so once you realize that, then 505 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: you're going to finally, ultimately begin to rejoice in your 506 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 2: suffering because you go, you know what, I'm more like 507 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 2: Jesus now than I was before. And Paul was right, 508 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 2: and durance produces character, and character gives me hope. A kid, 509 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 2: when I say this whole Christian thing that everybody's talking about, 510 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 2: it's true. It's the real deal. That the revelations there 511 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 2: come frankly through suffering, and then the character and the 512 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 2: maturity that the Lord works in our lives through it. 513 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,880 Speaker 3: We have to remember too that Paul, who suffered a lot, 514 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 3: a law that these things that we're going through, the 515 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 3: sufferings were going through now, will seem light and momentary 516 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 3: when compared to eternity. He says, these light, momentary afflictions 517 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 3: are preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond 518 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 3: all comparison. When we get to an eternity where there's 519 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 3: no more evil, no more temptation, no more hatred. And 520 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 3: people have been formed into the image of Christ. That's 521 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,920 Speaker 3: what the goal is, and that's going to be far 522 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 3: beyond what we can imagine here. 523 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: That's right, okay. And you know something that I have 524 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: observed in the two of you, because I've gotten to 525 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: watch you through this, is that you enduring your suffering 526 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: through the way that you have and really clinging to 527 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: God's word, clinging to God's truth, walking through those seven 528 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: truths that you just walked us through. I've observed three 529 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: things in you, both of you. There is such a 530 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: light about your presence, about your face that like you 531 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 1: would think, with all of the suffering that you all 532 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: have endured, that somebody would look at you and you 533 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,199 Speaker 1: would have a dark cloud over your head. You'd be 534 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: like e or in Winnie the Voo. But neither of 535 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: you are like that. There is like this pure light. 536 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,119 Speaker 1: That's number. That's you two individually. You two is a couple. 537 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: I can just tell this has bonded you, hasn't it. 538 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 2: Oh yes? Oh yes, Suffering bonds you together as long 539 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 2: as you're both walking and Jesus, suffering bonds you together. 540 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,360 Speaker 1: And that's the other thing, because like you said, everybody's 541 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: face is suffering and suffering is meant to make us 542 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: more like Jesus. But if we don't handle it the 543 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: right way, then it can have the opposite result. It 544 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,400 Speaker 1: could cause division, It could cause you know, bitterness, anger, resentment, 545 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: and it does for a lot of people, frankly, and 546 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: then you know, relationships are fractured, and you know, I mean, 547 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: there's just so many negative things that can happen. But 548 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 1: when Christ is your hope, like it's really brought the 549 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: two of you together, it's really beautiful to watch you, guys, 550 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 1: really beautiful. And then the third thing that I have 551 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 1: noticed is that has made you very outward focused. And 552 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: what I mean by that is that Clay, I know, 553 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: like you Christ with a lot of your doctors and 554 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: nurses and stuff. Geenie you do too. I mean, you're 555 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: really outward focused. How can God use this suffering? It's 556 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: almost like you're stewarding. You're suffering, well is what you're doing. So, 557 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: as we are closing here, what are the last things 558 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: that you would want someone to know who's listening right 559 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: now about maybe this stewarding they're suffering. Well, maybe this 560 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: person is listening and just earlier today they were balling 561 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: their eyes out or maybe last night they couldn't even sleep, 562 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 1: they were up all night long, tossing and turning and 563 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: worrying and just so overcome. Maybe they're really angry at God. 564 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: Maybe they are wondering, God, is this happening because you 565 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: don't love me? Walk us through what that person, what 566 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: you think Jesus would want that person to know, and 567 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: what would be helpful to that person. 568 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 3: I think that the first thing that God would want 569 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 3: that to know is that hardship and suffering is never 570 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,800 Speaker 3: a sign that God doesn't love you. In the Book 571 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 3: of Job, we see somebody who God dearly loved and 572 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 3: stated was the most righteous person on earth. But he 573 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 3: allowed him to go through great suffering, one to prove 574 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 3: his faith to the Angelochromes, but two also because he 575 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 3: was teaching him some things, because he had some false beliefs. 576 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 3: They had false beliefs about bad things happen only to 577 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 3: bad people, good things happen only to good people, and 578 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 3: you can tell what your standing is. And they had 579 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 3: a focus that was not eternal. And Job has an 580 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 3: amazing revelation of eternity and there as he went through 581 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 3: his suffering. So that's the first thing, is that suffering 582 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 3: is not a sign that God does not love you. 583 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 3: It's a sign that God loves you and is guiding 584 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 3: you and is pruning away the things that are not 585 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 3: god like. He's doing things in your life to make 586 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 3: you into a creature that when you get to heaven 587 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 3: he will be able to say well done, good and 588 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 3: faithful servant, you'll have great reward. That's really important to remember. 589 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 2: And I would just say the biggest problem for Christians today, 590 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,320 Speaker 2: at least in the West. I'm not sure in persecuted 591 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 2: countries that they're not doing this, but that is people. 592 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: Most Christians don't think about eternity. They've lost sight of eternity. 593 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: Eternities and also ran doctrine for them. But Peter says 594 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 2: in one Peter one thirteen, being self controlled and sober minded, 595 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 2: set your hope fully on the grace to be given 596 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: you when Jesus Christ is revealed. And so what we 597 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 2: need to do is have a change of mind. The 598 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 2: trouble is the Satan has made heaven look like a 599 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 2: place you don't want to go. Where we're going to 600 00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 2: be sitting on clouds, sporting flightless wings, strumming harps and 601 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: singing non stop. None of that's true. Heaven and the 602 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 2: New and Old Testaments is compared mostly to a banquet. 603 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 2: We're certainly going to be banged, and our occupation is 604 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: going to be reigning with Christ forever. And we need 605 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 2: to change our focus from yeah, but I need to 606 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 2: be happy here. No, you need to be prepared to 607 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 2: reign with Jesus forever and ever and ever a banquet comes, 608 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: and as David said, and in your right hand are 609 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 2: pleasures forevermore. That's the ultimate plan. And we need to 610 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,959 Speaker 2: focus on heaven, and very few Christians do. We're working 611 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,680 Speaker 2: to change that. Well. 612 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: Thank you so much and I am just so appreciative 613 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: that you have tackled this really, really difficult topic. But 614 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: it's one that touches every single person. So everybody needs 615 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: to get your book. Everybody needs to forward this to 616 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: someone who is in the midst of suffering. So tell 617 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: us as we're closing out how we can get a 618 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: copy of your book. 619 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 2: Of course, there's Amazon, Barnes and Noble, you know, I mean, 620 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 2: Chris christianbook dot Com. It's out there. So anyway, any 621 00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,959 Speaker 2: place that sells books has art. We'll be having our 622 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 2: book for sale. Amazon has it for pre order. 623 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: Right now, perfect, perfect, Well, we will have all of 624 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: that information in the show notes. Clay and Janie, thank 625 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: you so much for being on the podcast and for 626 00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: sharing your wisdom and your hope. I know it has 627 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: been just what my listeners needed. 628 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: Very good. Well, thank you don a pleasure to be 629 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 2: with you. 630 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 1: Wasn't that a wonderful conversation? I really do hope it 631 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: was just what you needed? And if it was, would 632 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: you share this episode with someone? I know that there 633 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: is somebody in your world who's going through a tough 634 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 1: season and I just suspect that this podcast might be 635 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: the lifeline that they need. So you be the friend 636 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: that holds out the lifeline and share this episode with someone, 637 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: would you? And don't forget to subscribe to the podcast. 638 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: Follow me on social media at Donna A. Jones, jump 639 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: over to my website Donna Jones dot org, and as always, 640 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: my friend, I can't wait to see you next time, 641 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: for that's just what I needed.