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Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hey, Dan, thanks for joining me.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Michael. I appreciate it and glad

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Speaker 2: to be here with you.

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Speaker 3: Daniel Dan Darling, director of the Land Center for Cultural

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Speaker 3: Engagement at Southwestern Seminary and Assistant Professor of Faith and

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Speaker 3: Culture at Texas Baptist College, author of several books, including

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Speaker 3: the newest one, Biblical Wisdom for Everyday Life, Ethical Answers

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Speaker 3: for Cultural Questions.

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Speaker 1: I really like that title. B.

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Speaker 3: Tohs, The publisher, releases May twenty sixth, Daniel, this book

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Speaker 3: deals with some of the most highly debated issues of

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Speaker 3: our time IVF, marijuana, cohabitation, sexual ethics, abortion, gambling, end

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Speaker 3: of life issues. What convinced you that now was the

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Speaker 3: right time to write this and release this well a couple.

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Speaker 2: Of different things. One I teach here at Texas Baptist

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Speaker 2: College intro to ethics, to Christian ethics, and so these

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Speaker 2: topics come up in my classes. But more importantly, I

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Speaker 2: wanted to help pastures in every day Christians think through

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Speaker 2: some of these decisions that they're having to make. You know,

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Speaker 2: what does it look like to follow Christ faithfully with

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Speaker 2: our lives, with our bodies, with with the choices we

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Speaker 2: make and you know this is these are not necessarily

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Speaker 2: hot topic political issues, although some of them can be.

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Speaker 2: But it's it's more or less the kind of questions

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Speaker 2: that our teenagers are asking us, or that pastors are

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Speaker 2: being asked probably once or twice a week. You know,

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Speaker 2: should I smoke marijuana? What do you think about cohabitation?

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Speaker 2: Or you know, IVF issues, or or all these kinds

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Speaker 2: of things. And so I really wanted to provide a

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Speaker 2: resource that drew from scripture but also from the best

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Speaker 2: of the Christian tradition.

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Speaker 3: Let me ask you about the state of conservatism right now,

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Speaker 3: because it seems to me at least that a libertarianism

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Speaker 3: streak is kind of making its way into conservatism and

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Speaker 3: maybe even a.

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Speaker 1: Liber pine streak. Do you sense that? And is that

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Speaker 1: maybe one reason you wanted to write this as well?

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Speaker 2: I think so. I mean, and I'm writing to Christians.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of influences on unbelievers, whether it's their

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Speaker 2: favorite podcast or influencers or all those types of people

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Speaker 2: that pastors are having to sort of compete with. If

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Speaker 2: you will, you know, I've been a Christian conservative my

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Speaker 2: whole life, sort of Ronald Reagan conservative, social and economic

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Speaker 2: and you know, good foreign policy with some flexibility in there,

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Speaker 2: of course on certain things. But I do think you're right.

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Speaker 2: I think on the right there's been a lot of libertinism,

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Speaker 2: a lot of sort of barstool conservatism where really want

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Speaker 2: good economic policy, which I'm for, but really embracing almost

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Speaker 2: a sort of hedonistic lifestyle of hedonism. And I think

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Speaker 2: Christians we have to live differently. We're called to live

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Speaker 2: the way that the Lord calls us to live. And

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Speaker 2: I think the one thing I want to underscore is

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Speaker 2: that you know, God's way is not just the way

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Speaker 2: he commands us to do. Re Jesus said, if you

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Speaker 2: love me, keep my commands right. So true love for

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Speaker 2: the Lord is to obey him. But also the way

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Speaker 2: that God designed us to live is for our flourishing

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Speaker 2: and for our good.

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Speaker 1: Amen to that.

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Speaker 3: I love how the book is set up simple questions

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Speaker 3: with lengthy and succinct answers. Each chapter begins with a question,

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Speaker 3: can Christians support gay marriage? That's the title of one chapter.

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Speaker 3: How should Christians think about gambling? What should Christians think.

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Speaker 1: About divorce and re marriage? Also it's about cohabitation. Would

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Speaker 1: you say that some.

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Speaker 3: Of the issues in your book are maybe more black

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Speaker 3: and white than others, and there's some gray areas in there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, some are more black and white and some are gray. Right,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think things like the sacty of life

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Speaker 2: and marriage are pretty clear cut in scripture. There's other

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Speaker 2: issues that Christians might disagree on, or maybe they agree

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Speaker 2: in principle, but disagree on the approach to those things,

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Speaker 2: and so I think we have to apply wisdom there.

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Speaker 2: There are also issues that may not be as clearly

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Speaker 2: spelled out in scripture. But if you apply the Bible's

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Speaker 2: wisdom and I think Christian thinking and the best of

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Speaker 2: the Christian tradition, you can come to a pretty good

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Speaker 2: conclusion that it's not a wise choice to make. Right. So,

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Speaker 2: I think something like gambling, there's not a real verse

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Speaker 2: in scripture that says thou shalt not bad on sports,

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Speaker 2: or thou shalt not have a draft Kings account. But

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Speaker 2: if you look through scripture and what scripture is about

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Speaker 2: money and greed, you look at how the gambling industry

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Speaker 2: praise on the poor, how it's super addictive and leads

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Speaker 2: to ruin, and all these kinds of things, you come

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Speaker 2: away saying this is not a wise thing. For Christians

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Speaker 2: to participate in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Amen, Amen, Let's talk about a couple of them then,

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Speaker 3: I think would benefit the audience. One of them is

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Speaker 3: go habitation, And I'm just going to ask you, is

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Speaker 3: it wrong to live together before marriage?

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Speaker 1: And this one comes up.

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Speaker 3: Often because a number of couples they'll say, we're going

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Speaker 3: to get married, we're just not married yet, we're going

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Speaker 3: to live together, get things together. I know there was

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Speaker 3: a prominent church I think it might have been in

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Speaker 3: Texas that recently.

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Speaker 1: Had a kind of a I don't know.

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Speaker 3: What the phrase the pastor used, but he kind of

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Speaker 3: challenged couples from the pulpit to get married.

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Speaker 1: And there was this mass day for a lot of weddings.

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Speaker 1: It was a beautiful thing.

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Speaker 3: So this is an issue that people in the church

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Speaker 3: are asking. So help people understand this issue better. Maybe

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Speaker 3: even addressed the couple who thinks they're going to basically

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Speaker 3: get married but they're living together right now and their believers.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I do applaud that pastor Josh Howerton for addressing

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Speaker 2: it and took a lot of courage because even in

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Speaker 2: very conservative Red counties, if you will, even among Evangelicals,

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Speaker 2: cohabitation is kind of a wink and nod thing that

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Speaker 2: happens where a lot of evangelicals are cohabitating before marriage.

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Speaker 2: And look, you know, the scripture talks about God's designed

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Speaker 2: for marriage and sexuality, that God created sexuality for good

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Speaker 2: and for his glory. It's a beautiful thing that he created,

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Speaker 2: but he created it for a purpose, right, it's in

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Speaker 2: a covenant relationship between a husband and wife, and you know, cohabitation,

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Speaker 2: what people will tell you is, well, you need to

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Speaker 2: sort of test drive the relationship. You need to sort

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Speaker 2: of see if you're compatible sexually and in every way

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Speaker 2: before you get married. And actually that works against lifelong commitment.

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Speaker 2: There's even studies that show Brad Wilcox, who is at

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Speaker 2: the University of Virginia, has done a lot of research,

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Speaker 2: and there's studies that show couples who cohabitate versus couples

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Speaker 2: who wait to live together till they're married, Couples who

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Speaker 2: cohabitate have a slightly higher rated divorce in all those things.

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Speaker 2: That's not to say if that's you, that your life

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Speaker 2: is over and you're destined for that, but cohabitation does

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Speaker 2: embed certain kind of negative patterns. It's sort of you know,

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Speaker 2: saying to each other. I want to get everything that

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Speaker 2: I want out of this relationship, but don't want to

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Speaker 2: make a commitment. Everyone has can have one eye towards

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Speaker 2: the door. And you know, Tim Keller talks about this

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Speaker 2: a lot where it's actually he said, you're training yourself

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Speaker 2: to leave. You're training yourself to not be committed. Whereas

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Speaker 2: a commitment and a covenant relationship that comes first. And

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Speaker 2: when you stand before witnesses and you pledge to yourself

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Speaker 2: into the Lord, we're going to stay together, that actually

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Speaker 2: helps in nurtures that intimate relationship. Right, But intimacy without

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Speaker 2: commitment produces all kinds of kinds of issues. I know

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Speaker 2: it's countercultural even among Christians, but I would say the

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Speaker 2: wisest thing is to not live together. And I've heard

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Speaker 2: from couples say and even parents write me after I've

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Speaker 2: written about this and say, well, our kids are living together,

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Speaker 2: but they're you know, they're in separate bedroom, they're not

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Speaker 2: engaging sexually and all that. And I think, well, first

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Speaker 2: of all, I'm I'm curious if that's really true. They're

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Speaker 2: just telling you that. But secondly, I think you're putting

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Speaker 2: yourself in a really hard position. And I think it's

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Speaker 2: better to do the hard thing, live apart until you

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Speaker 2: get married, and then you know, once you get married,

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Speaker 2: you have that good foundation. And so people come to

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Speaker 2: this question sometimes saying, we're already living together, what do

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Speaker 2: we do? And I think working with your pastor to

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Speaker 2: figure out a good solution, whether you get married at

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Speaker 2: this on the spot, whether you move out one of

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Speaker 2: you moves out for a season just as a sign

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Speaker 2: that you want to honor the Lord. I think those

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Speaker 2: are all all options there.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk about another one that is hotly debated within

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Speaker 3: America right now, which is IDF. You know, some pro

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Speaker 3: lifers disagree on this, Conservatives sometimes disagree with it as well.

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Speaker 3: How should Christians view the issue of of IBF? And

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Speaker 3: asked this because you're a Southern Baptist. As a Southern

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Speaker 3: Baptists have spoken out about this and resolutions, but those

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Speaker 3: resolutions often go against what many a conservatism believe.

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Speaker 2: Go ahead, Yeah, I think this is a complicated issue, right.

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Speaker 2: I think. I think on the one hand, we have

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Speaker 2: to say the idea of creating a bunch of embryos

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Speaker 2: and freezing them so that you can get one that works. Well,

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Speaker 2: let me back up, I want to back up even further.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to say the desire to have children is

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Speaker 2: a good and healthy desire. So I am grateful that

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Speaker 2: there are folks that really desperately want to have children,

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Speaker 2: and there are folks who struggle deeply with infertility, and

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Speaker 2: so we have to have compassion and grace towards them

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Speaker 2: and pray. Then the desire to work to try to

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Speaker 2: find a solution to have children is a good one.

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Speaker 2: It's a healthy one to want to have children. Bible

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Speaker 2: talks about the pain of infertility with a lot of

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Speaker 2: deep compassion. You think of Sarah, I think of Hannah,

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Speaker 2: you think of Elizabeth. I think we have to say

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Speaker 2: that creating creating embryos in a lab and freezing them

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Speaker 2: and keeping them frozen, we should be deeply troubled by that,

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Speaker 2: because if life begins at conception, however the conception happens,

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Speaker 2: we think that that's a human life there, and so

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Speaker 2: to have all these embryos frozen, it's really not an

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Speaker 2: ethical way to think about this. I know a lot

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Speaker 2: of folks who have engaged in IVF did not fully

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Speaker 2: understand the process and how that works. Maybe the doctors

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Speaker 2: didn't fully tell them everything that was going on, so

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Speaker 2: they didn't realize it or I didn't think ethically through it.

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Speaker 2: So we rejoice in the children that have been produced

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Speaker 2: from that, and those are the people made in the

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Speaker 2: image of God, and we're grateful for him. But I

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Speaker 2: think we have to think about what we're doing ethically.

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Speaker 2: I think there could be a way to engage in

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Speaker 2: IVF ethically if you're only creating enough embryos to conceive,

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Speaker 2: you know, and not creating this huge backlog, you know,

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Speaker 2: and trial and error thing. There's an ethical way forward

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Speaker 2: to do it. But I still think even and I'm

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Speaker 2: not going to bind the conscience on people that choose

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Speaker 2: to do that, I still think there's some ethical questions

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Speaker 2: we have to ask ourselves about. The farther we get

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Speaker 2: removed from the marital act, the more it becomes, there's

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Speaker 2: just some ethical gray areas and questions. Right, I'm not

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Speaker 2: gonna I now have friends who will say definitively any

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Speaker 2: sort of IVF process is unethical and moral is wrong.

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Speaker 2: I'm not prepared to do that because I don't necessarily

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Speaker 2: think trying to seek medical advancements to have children without

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Speaker 2: obviously destroying human life is wrong. But I still think

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Speaker 2: even if you do IVF and what we might consider

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Speaker 2: an ethical way, there's a lot of things to think

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Speaker 2: through in terms of is this the right right way

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Speaker 2: to do this? I know matthe Lee Anderson, and Andrew

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Speaker 2: Walker and others have expressed some real serious reservations about it. Thankfully,

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Speaker 2: there are some new sort of innovations and technologies that

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Speaker 2: are on the horizon where folks are able to kind

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Speaker 2: of get at the root of infertility and do some

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Speaker 2: real good medicine that actually restores and heels and maybe

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Speaker 2: we'll see where we don't even you know, IVF isn't

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Speaker 2: something that's even needed because there's other solutions. And so

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Speaker 2: I think we have to think deeply about this, about

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Speaker 2: why conception is the result of a one flesh unit

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Speaker 2: between a husband and wife, and we should ask ourselves

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Speaker 2: questions the farther we get away from from that and

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Speaker 2: into sort of the the laboratory. Yeah, not to mention

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Speaker 2: it's extremely expensive. It's very and sometimes you get so

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Speaker 2: far down the road that you run out of money

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Speaker 2: and by the time you can adopt you don't have

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Speaker 2: any more money to adopt, you know, And well, I've

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Speaker 2: my wife and I face this very issue, and we

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Speaker 2: did not go to the IVF for.

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Speaker 1: Out and we ended up adopting. So it's very it

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Speaker 1: can be complicated. I understand what you're saying.

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Speaker 2: Well, we have to we have to ask ourselves questions

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Speaker 2: about and I have a whole chapter in the book

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Speaker 2: on IVF, birth control, reproductive technologies, all these things. I

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Speaker 2: think we we always just we want to be asking

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Speaker 2: ourselves questions. Just because we can do something scientifically medically

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Speaker 2: does not necessarily mean we should ethically. We want to

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Speaker 2: be wise about that, and I have some resources and

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Speaker 2: helps in there for Christians to think through. On the

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Speaker 2: one hand, we don't want to speak and bind the

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Speaker 2: contents where maybe scripture isn't doing that. But I do

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Speaker 2: think we have to really be, really be careful about

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Speaker 2: these things. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a difficult issue because it plays on

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Speaker 3: your natural desire to have kids, right and so, and

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Speaker 3: you have whole industries telling you it's it's possible.

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Speaker 2: Well, and there's this sort of designer you know, it's

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Speaker 2: kind of a wild West right now. There's not a

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Speaker 2: ton of regulation you can create that designer babies. You know,

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Speaker 2: what kind of characteristics do you want I also think

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Speaker 2: I talk in this book about some things that Christians

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Speaker 2: should definitely not engage and be troubled by. I think

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Speaker 2: surrogacy is something that you know, I can't find a

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Speaker 2: biblical I like to me that has all sorts of

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Speaker 2: ethical issues and troubles that I think are Christians should avoid.

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Speaker 2: And there's a kind of a predatory nature to it.

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Speaker 2: And I also think, you know, like things like artificial

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Speaker 2: insemination and all these kinds of sperm donations and all that,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot of troubling issues there where again you're

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Speaker 2: separating the one flesh union. You're getting farther and farther

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Speaker 2: away from that, right. You know, you have these situations

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Speaker 2: where someone donated sperm and you know they have a

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Speaker 2: thousand kids or a hundred kids, and they don't even know.

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Speaker 2: I mean, these are things that are far away from

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Speaker 2: sort of the God's design for marriage and family.

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Speaker 3: Let me ask you a final question here about gambling.

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Speaker 3: And I'm asking you this because you are a professor,

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Speaker 3: you teach many young men. Sports gambling is a problem

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Speaker 3: with young among young men right now. You're a sports fan.

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Speaker 3: I'm a sports fan. A lot of those guys are

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Speaker 3: sports fans, so it's easy to get hooked up in this.

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Speaker 1: I guess I'm I'm.

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Speaker 3: Asking you what advice you would give a young Christian

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Speaker 3: man who sees these fan.

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Speaker 1: Duel ads over and over? Well, what advice would you

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Speaker 1: give them, not just financially, but ethically.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question. And actually I have a son

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Speaker 2: who's graduating high school and he him and I we

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Speaker 2: love sports. I mean we're we're Chicago Bears fans, Cubs fans.

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Speaker 2: We watch NFL football, I listen to sports podcasts, watch

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Speaker 2: sports shows on TV. You can't escape the gambling ends.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's everywhere. It's ubiquitous. And you know, I'm

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Speaker 2: really troubled because I think there's a lot of young

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Speaker 2: men in this country that are going to fall prey

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Speaker 2: to this and get addicted to us. They have a smartphone,

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Speaker 2: they have their father's credit card, they love sports, a

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Speaker 2: little prop bet here, little one there, and all of

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Speaker 2: a sudden they find themselves in a massive hole. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things I tell my kids is that,

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Speaker 2: first of all, you know, I think scripturally it's morally problematic.

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Speaker 2: I think I think gambling is morally problematic, right, the

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Speaker 2: vices that it nurtures, whether it's greed or whatever. When

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Speaker 2: you gamble, someone's losing. Right, we're winning because someone's losing.

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Speaker 2: It's much different than investment. Right, there's a way to

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Speaker 2: do investments in the stock market that can be like

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Speaker 2: gambling that we should be wary of. But when you

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Speaker 2: invest in the stock market, you're investing in a company.

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Speaker 2: You're saying, I want my money to go into this company.

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Speaker 2: You're investing something real that can grow. Right. This is different,

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Speaker 2: you know. And the gambling companies corporations, they make money

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Speaker 2: on us losing. Right, the house always wins, it always

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Speaker 2: wins fan duel and DraftKings, despite their programming, despite their ads,

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Speaker 2: they're not interested in you making money. They are not

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Speaker 2: interested in you getting rich. They want you to lose money.

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Speaker 2: And that's how they get wealthy. Why is there so

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Speaker 2: much gambling money? Why are these people wealthy? They're wealthy

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Speaker 2: because someone lost, and they work the algorithms so that

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Speaker 2: people lose. They've done research on gambling addiction. It's as

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Speaker 2: bad as a drug addiction, the sort of the dopamine levels,

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Speaker 2: all this, And here's the thing. Gambling always preys on

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Speaker 2: the working class, the lower classes, right, people in the

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Speaker 2: elite levels can have a line item in their budget

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Speaker 2: for gambling, and they can lose a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: I still think that's wrong, but they have the resources

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Speaker 2: to mitigate the effects of that vice. But the lower classes,

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Speaker 2: in the working class people don't have that. And so

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Speaker 2: what you're going to see, and you see this everywhere

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Speaker 2: gambling has expanded. You could talk to people in those areas.

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Speaker 2: You see a breakdown of family. You see fathers who

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Speaker 2: who bet their whole paycheck and their kids suddenly can't

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Speaker 2: have food. They may lose their house, lose their marriage,

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Speaker 2: lose everything, their story after story after story. It has

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Speaker 2: a devastating impact. And I just think Christians should avoid this.

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Speaker 2: I think young men should avoid this. There are so

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Speaker 2: many vices today, Michael, that are almost laser targeted on

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Speaker 2: young men. Whether it's the legalization of drugs that wants

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Speaker 2: to dull their senses and make them lazy and make

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Speaker 2: them unproductive and make them addicted, whether it's gambling that

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Speaker 2: wants to take their money and their time and put

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Speaker 2: them in a bad position, whether it's pornography that wants

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Speaker 2: to strangle them sexually. And so I think young men

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Speaker 2: have to be countercultural and resist this. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I just talk to my son. I said, man, like,

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Speaker 2: do not start gambling, Do not get involved in it.

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Speaker 2: Do not do it. The other thing it does to

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Speaker 2: Michael sports gambling is it it commodifies these athletes. Right,

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Speaker 2: So now we're mad. Our team wins, but we're mad

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Speaker 2: because our favorite running back didn't score a touchdown. It's

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Speaker 2: one thing if you have a fantasy team and you're

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Speaker 2: having fun with it. But if you have a prop

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Speaker 2: bet on how many touchdowns a running back's going to

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Speaker 2: have or how many you know yards or wide receivers

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Speaker 2: going to have, or how many pre throws of a

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Speaker 2: basketball player are going to have, and then you don't

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Speaker 2: make it and they're costing you money. This is a

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Speaker 2: dangerous situation. And athletes have said they get messages from

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Speaker 2: people threatening them with death and all these kinds of things.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's a real bad situation. We should not

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Speaker 2: be engaged in this. As Christians, we should be countercultural.

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Speaker 2: We should use our money for good things. We should

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Speaker 2: investor money in the Kingdom of Heaven and not in

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Speaker 2: these places where it's gonna hurt and corrupt folks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're talking about propbats.

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Speaker 3: That's that's one of the most controversial elements of gambling

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Speaker 3: because it's the easiest. I'm talking not just Christian ethics.

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Speaker 3: I'm talking about the purity of the sports is the

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Speaker 3: easiest one to cheat on because a single athlete can

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Speaker 3: just miss some shots and all of a sudden, he

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Speaker 3: made some money because he told somebody else he's going to.

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Speaker 1: Miss the shots.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and now that the sport is no longer pure,

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Speaker 3: Let's circle back to the book itself, Daniel, what do

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Speaker 3: you want folks to know about it? And what's the

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Speaker 3: major takeaway from the book in your mind?

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Speaker 2: What I think major takeaway is these are questions, is

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Speaker 2: that people are asking about coabitation, gambling. You should have

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Speaker 2: should someone serve in the military? What about abortion? If

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Speaker 2: someone a friend wants to get an abortion? You know,

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Speaker 2: things like this, birth control, all sorts of issues. How

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Speaker 2: should I think? How should I think about my job?

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Speaker 2: My nine to five job? And so it's very easy

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Speaker 2: to understand. If you're a pastor, I would I would

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Speaker 2: suggest having this just so that if someone asks you

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Speaker 2: one of those questions, you can go to that or

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Speaker 2: you can hand it out to folks. Written for a

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Speaker 2: lay audience, and I try to really lay out not

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Speaker 2: just be you know, knee jerk answers and political answers,

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Speaker 2: but really what does the scripture say? What of other

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Speaker 2: Christians said? How do we think through this morally? What

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Speaker 2: are some things we should think about as we so

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Speaker 2: we think about this particular topic.

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Speaker 4: If you enjoy today's interview, please make sure to subscribe

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Speaker 4: and share the episode with a friend. A big thanks

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Speaker 4: to the team at Life Audio for their partnership with

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Speaker 4: us on the podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,

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Speaker 4: you will find dozens of other faiths podcast and their network.

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Speaker 1: See you next time,