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Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that

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Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become

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Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking

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Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world

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Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that

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Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to

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Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: this episode of Thinking Christian. I'm doctor James Spencer and

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Speaker 1: I'm joined today by Addison Bevie, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: be talking about his new book, which is actually based

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Speaker 1: on a previous book he wrote, Words with God. We're

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Speaker 1: going to be talking about Words with God, Prayer Journal,

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Speaker 1: as well as some of the other things that he does.

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Speaker 1: He's president of Messenger International, which is the discipleship ministry,

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Speaker 1: and he also started something that's called Rediscover Prayer dot Com.

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Speaker 1: And so Addison, welcome to the podcast. Man, thanks for

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Speaker 1: being here.

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Speaker 2: Thanks Doctor James's honorby on the show.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so.

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Speaker 1: I think you were talking a little bit before we

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Speaker 1: got on and started recording. But I mean, I'd just

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Speaker 1: be interested. How did rediscover prayer start? I think that's

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Speaker 1: a cool story. It might be a nice place for

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Speaker 1: us to jump into the conversation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. So I grew up in a home with

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Speaker 2: two amazing parents who are both authors ministers, and so

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Speaker 2: I grew up in an environment where prayer was modeled

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Speaker 2: for me. My dad is the kind of person who

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Speaker 2: would get up early in the morning, would be out

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Speaker 2: there four point thirty five m in the morning. He

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Speaker 2: would go out and pray for a couple hours. Come in.

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Speaker 2: I would get up. I would see him reading his

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Speaker 2: Bible in his study, and so that was modeled for

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Speaker 2: me my entire life. And I've got to be honest

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Speaker 2: with you. I would watch him do it, and I

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Speaker 2: would think to myself, I could never do that. He's

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Speaker 2: on another level. And so I would see that, and

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Speaker 2: I would think to myself, man, because he just going

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Speaker 2: out there for two hours and just praying to God,

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Speaker 2: just saying after thing after thing, articulating the you know,

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Speaker 2: the depths of his soul. Like I start praying for

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Speaker 2: three minutes, and I feel like my mind wanders, and

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Speaker 2: I feel like I get distracted and I lose interest,

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Speaker 2: and so I had this performative view of prayer, and

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Speaker 2: the enemy did a really good job of convincing me

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Speaker 2: that prayer was more about my performance and less about

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Speaker 2: God's desire to be a constant presence in my life.

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Speaker 2: And that led me on. That led me on a journey,

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Speaker 2: come to find out years later. Okay, so I'm in

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Speaker 2: my early thirties. At this point, I'm having a conversation

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Speaker 2: with my dad and this is two funny. I'm like, Dad,

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Speaker 2: I have to know, like, what were you doing? What

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Speaker 2: do you do when you go out and pray for

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Speaker 2: twevers of the morning. He's like, well, Addison, I prayed

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Speaker 2: for like fifteen minutes and then I just listen. I listen.

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Speaker 2: I just pace and I'm quiet, and I'm still. I'm like, Dad,

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Speaker 2: you're telling me you just go out there and you listen.

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Speaker 2: He said, that's what like that. I had this idea

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Speaker 2: of you just being out there going through every single

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Speaker 2: scripture going through He's like, no, No, that's not what

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Speaker 2: I'm doing. And what was amazing is God taught me

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Speaker 2: that in a different way, through a different experience, but

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Speaker 2: it was it was fascinating to see how we both

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Speaker 2: arrived at the same place. Even though our styles are different,

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Speaker 2: our emphasis is different. It was neat for me. It

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Speaker 2: was a full circle moment because I had this idea

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Speaker 2: of my dad that actually wasn't accurate. Yes, he was

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Speaker 2: a man of prayer, but the idea of prayer was

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Speaker 2: different than what I thought. It wasn't. What I found

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Speaker 2: out James studying prayer is that ninety eight percent of

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Speaker 2: corn to Barna, roughly ninety eight percent of people they

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Speaker 2: share this this sense that they're bad at prayer, that

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Speaker 2: when it comes to prayer other people they have it

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Speaker 2: figured out and we're missing it. And I think the

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Speaker 2: accuser does a really good job of making prayer about

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Speaker 2: a performance that we have to get right, turning it

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Speaker 2: into a transaction rather than a transformational experience that extends

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Speaker 2: outside of a moment, energizes every moment of our lives.

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Speaker 2: And of course, shame is a powerful disqualifier when it

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Speaker 2: comes to intimacy, so of course he wants prayer to

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Speaker 2: be a place of shame where we think we're never

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Speaker 2: doing enough, we're not enough, we don't know the right words,

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Speaker 2: we don't know how to long to pray, we don't

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Speaker 2: know the forms, we don't know the place whatever it

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Speaker 2: may be, or you haven't been doing this well, so

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Speaker 2: of course God's not going to engage with you in

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Speaker 2: your moment or hour of need. And so I love

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Speaker 2: going into that dissonance, that question and be like, Okay, no,

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Speaker 2: what really is prayer all about? And how does God

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Speaker 2: meet us in that intimate place of purpose and peace

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Speaker 2: and provision and protection.

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Do you find that, you know, as you've been working

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Speaker 1: with people on prayer and interacting with people on prayer,

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Speaker 1: do you find that many people have as much difficulty

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Speaker 1: starting sort of the talking part of prayer as they

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Speaker 1: do slowing down to do the listening part of prayer?

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you talk about your dad's experience there

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Speaker 1: he prays for fifteen minutes. I can almost get my

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Speaker 1: head around that. But then pacing around and listening for

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Speaker 1: the other, you know, hour forty five, I'm kind of like, man,

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Speaker 1: it just it feels like our fast paced world really

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Speaker 1: squeezes that time out, And you know, so you're like, well,

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Speaker 1: what am I doing? Shouldn't I be on the treadmill

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Speaker 1: multitasking my prayer life or something like that?

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Do you find that people

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Speaker 3: struggle with that aspect.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And I think going back to the fundamental

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Speaker 2: disconnect is this idea we make ourselves the hero or

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Speaker 2: the villain of our prayers, and we vacillate back and

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Speaker 2: forth between the two. It's like, oh, I'm checking the boxes.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, so of

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Speaker 2: course God's going to engage. Or I haven't done what

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Speaker 2: I should be doing. I'm not checking the boxes, so

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Speaker 2: of course God's not going to disengage. And the invitation

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Speaker 2: that God has extended to me is like, look, I

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Speaker 2: don't need you to be the hero, and I don't

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Speaker 2: need you to be the villain. I need you to

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Speaker 2: be a willing participant. And if you look at first

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Speaker 2: Sessonians five seventeen, right the famous pray constantly pray without

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Speaker 2: ceasing a Romans twelve twelve pray constantly pray always or

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Speaker 2: Ephesian six's eighteen at all times pray this idea of

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Speaker 2: constant prayer. We hear that if we engage prayer as

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Speaker 2: a chore, that becomes a burden right that we could

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Speaker 2: never lift, rather than a blessing, rather an invitation to

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Speaker 2: constant and intimacy it becomes a burden. And when you

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Speaker 2: dig into the Greek at First Sessions five to seventeen,

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Speaker 2: it's actually an invitation to pray from a place of

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Speaker 2: constant rest, where there's a receptivity that allows you to

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Speaker 2: engage with what is most real about life, what's most

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Speaker 2: real in your circumstance, in that moment, where you can

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Speaker 2: engage the moment for what it really is, rather than

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Speaker 2: superimposing your own insecurity, your own sense of lack, your

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Speaker 2: own doubt, your own fear, whatever it may be. And

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Speaker 2: to your point about this idea of praying, articulating the words,

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Speaker 2: that's difficult, but then also being ill and rest that's difficult.

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Speaker 2: I love what James One actually says. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of us when we read James we

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Speaker 2: don't realize that, James One, that chapter is predominantly about prayer,

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Speaker 2: and we miss there's an instruction in there where it

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Speaker 2: talks about actually being being slow to speak, be quick

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Speaker 2: to hear. This idea of being being sensitive, and it's

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Speaker 2: it's built on this foundation that our God is good,

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Speaker 2: that there's no there's no shade, there's no shadow, that

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Speaker 2: he gives wisdom to those who ask that even though

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Speaker 2: we go through various trials, we know that these trials

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Speaker 2: are forming and forging something in us that is of

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Speaker 2: eternal value. And so when we start to understand, hey,

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Speaker 2: the pressure isn't on us to perform. We can engage

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Speaker 2: prayer in a way where when we need to speak,

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Speaker 2: there is a confidence because we're sensitive to the leading

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Speaker 2: of the spirit, And when we need to be quiet

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Speaker 2: and still to receive something that we don't have, we

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Speaker 2: can just be still and know that He is God.

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Speaker 2: And then that prepares us to partner with God. When

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Speaker 2: we do speak, prepares us to partner with God. And

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Speaker 2: I think about the Lord's prayer not as a formula,

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Speaker 2: but as a framework. It starts with this sensitivity to

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Speaker 2: God's goodness, his otherness, his power, his might, his kingdom,

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Speaker 2: the extent of it and invades every dimension. Our Father,

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Speaker 2: who is into heavens, who permeates every dimension, everything that

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Speaker 2: we know about time and space and beyond. He is there.

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Speaker 2: And from that place that God consciousness is what I

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Speaker 2: call it. I was, like most of us, we try

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Speaker 2: to pray from a place of self consciousness. And the

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Speaker 2: reality is it's really hard to be God conscious when

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Speaker 2: you're self conscious, and that is why even the way

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Speaker 2: Jesus teaches us to pray, it's forming this God consciousness

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Speaker 2: before we move into things like asking for our daily bread,

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Speaker 2: or struggling to receive forgiveness and extend forgiveness, or understand

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Speaker 2: the trials, the temptations, the difficult things we're walking through

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Speaker 2: in life. And so those are the types of things

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Speaker 2: I like to bring people into before we even talk

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Speaker 2: about how long we're praying, or are we praying, are

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Speaker 2: we articulating, are we listening. I'm like, hey, let's go

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Speaker 2: back to what this is actually all about, this connectivity

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Speaker 2: with God, and what are some of the foundational principles

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Speaker 2: that allow us to build a healthy life of prayer.

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Speaker 1: So much of that you mentioned, you know, sort of blessing,

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Speaker 1: so much that aligns with the sort of theology of

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Speaker 1: blessing and the general trajectory that God wants to take

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Speaker 1: us toward. I just reviewed a book on this. This

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Speaker 1: gentleman was reviewed or was analyzing the priestly blessing in Numbers,

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Speaker 1: and the whole book was basically just on that. But

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Speaker 1: in the process he talks about what it meant to

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Speaker 1: be blessed and that these weren't just sort of well wishes.

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Speaker 1: They were aiming to sort of redirect you into the

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Speaker 1: stream of what God is doing, to allow you to

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Speaker 1: participate in where God wants you to go. And so

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Speaker 1: part of the blessing what brought sort of an obligation

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Speaker 1: that now you knew what that blessing trajectory was, and

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Speaker 1: now you're supposed to fit within the stream of that.

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Speaker 1: And it just seems like the way you're the way

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about prayer would fit so well within that.

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Speaker 3: Is that Is that a fair statement?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely, because again going back to it, the enemy

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Speaker 2: is the enemy is brilliant in one sense, right, Like

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Speaker 2: so even if you look at if you look at

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Speaker 2: the blessing of the garden, the blessing was that God

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Speaker 2: walked with them in the cool of the deck. The

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Speaker 2: blessing was this uninhibited intimacy with the reality of God,

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Speaker 2: with the presence of God. And what does the accuser do.

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Speaker 2: The accuser comes in and says, hey, actually, you can

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Speaker 2: have knowledge of good and evil, you can have control,

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Speaker 2: you can you can grasp for this godness, you can

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Speaker 2: have it, but you can't walk at the pace of intimacy.

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Speaker 2: You can't walk at the pace of wisdom. You have

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Speaker 2: to actually circumvent God's way. If you eat of this,

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Speaker 2: if you partake of this, then you're going to know,

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Speaker 2: You're going to understand, and you are going to be

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Speaker 2: God's in your own right. And I feel like James

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Speaker 2: in so many ways prayer. The enemy has misconstrued prayer,

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Speaker 2: and he uses religiosity to do this. Misconstrued prayer as

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Speaker 2: this thing that actually allows us to go outside of

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Speaker 2: God's design for wisdom, because God offers wisdom at a

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Speaker 2: relational pace. Okay, So even as you're describing the priestly

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Speaker 2: blessing and tying that to James one where James is

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Speaker 2: describing these various trials and this process of perfection in

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Speaker 2: the Greek, I know you know this. It's to Laos,

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Speaker 2: it's this journey. It's a perfection that only comes through

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Speaker 2: a process. So it's not a perfection that comes from

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Speaker 2: knowing all the right answers. See, so often when it

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Speaker 2: comes to prayer, when it comes to life, we think, oh,

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Speaker 2: if I just do all the right answer and I'm good,

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Speaker 2: and we forget that God actually doesn't need us to

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Speaker 2: know all the right answers. What he wants us to

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Speaker 2: do is he wants us to walk closely with his person.

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Speaker 2: He wants us to understand his ways, and from there

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Speaker 2: we participate with him to do whatever it is he's

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Speaker 2: called us into. And if I'm honest, James, this is

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Speaker 2: just me. Maybe you're different. If I'm honest in my life,

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Speaker 2: when i'm really the anxiety of being is coming at

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Speaker 2: me right, the questions of protection, of provision of purpose,

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Speaker 2: when those are coming at me. If I'm honest, I'm like, Hey, God,

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Speaker 2: this whole like relational pace, this pace of wisdom, it's

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Speaker 2: not working for me. Here's what I need. I need

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Speaker 2: you to give me the answers. I need you like

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna fast, I'm gonna do whatever I like. I

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Speaker 2: need the answers. And I would never articulate this, but

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Speaker 2: it's almost like God, I'm saying, give me the answers,

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Speaker 2: then get out of my way. I don't really want

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Speaker 2: to walk with you and encounter the messiness of real

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Speaker 2: relationship and dependence on you. I'll be faithful, I'll do

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Speaker 2: the right things. And I think of James, I think

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Speaker 2: of Isaiah thirty because I love this. I love this

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Speaker 2: picture of how God speaks to us because I tell people,

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Speaker 2: when it comes to matter as a prayer, God states

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Speaker 2: his will in you more than he speaks his will

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Speaker 2: to you. And even when we say things like, hey,

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Speaker 2: prayer isn't a monologue, it's a dialogue, people are like, Okay, great,

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Speaker 2: I don't hear God. Like why you say that? Right?

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Speaker 1: Maybe that works for you, but he heard voices I'm

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Speaker 1: not but.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like, I'm not hearing these voices. And what's sad

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Speaker 2: Because again, prayer has become so transactional and we reduce

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Speaker 2: prayer to our idea of a conversation. We forget that

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Speaker 2: God designed our entire person to be a receptor. So

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Speaker 2: even if you look at the life of the Son

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Speaker 2: and I'm gonna come back to Isah Isaiah. Thirdy look

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Speaker 2: at jesus life. There's only three times when the Father

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Speaker 2: audibly speaks into Jesus' situations. It's Baptism, Mount, Transfiguration, and

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Speaker 2: John twelve. All three times the Father speaks. Truly, the

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Speaker 2: Father is mainly speaking for the people around Jesus. He's

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Speaker 2: actually not really speaking for Jesus's sake. And we read

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Speaker 2: in John five Jesus says, I only do what I

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Speaker 2: see the Father. Doing so, he's living in step with

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Speaker 2: God through the power of the spirit. This is why

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Speaker 2: he tells us in John fourteen fifteen sixteen different ways,

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Speaker 2: it's better for you that I go away. There are

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Speaker 2: things that you are trying to grasp intellectually, conceptually that

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Speaker 2: can only be understood as you surrender to the reality

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Speaker 2: of My spirit. Something about your internal reality, your interior

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Speaker 2: life is going to change when you receive the spirit

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Speaker 2: of God. This is the I think of Luke e

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Speaker 2: Levin where Jesus makes a statement. He says, even though

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Speaker 2: you are evil, know how to give good gifts to

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Speaker 2: your children. How much more will your Father in Heaven

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Speaker 2: give his very spirit, his nature to those who ask.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't say that he's going to give them the bread.

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Speaker 2: It says he's going to give them his nature. And

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Speaker 2: when when I think about how God speaks to us,

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Speaker 2: and I think of my own life, when I when

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Speaker 2: I look back and those moments when it seemed like

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Speaker 2: God was silent or it seemed like things weren't clear,

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Speaker 2: I know there was an invitation to step in faith.

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Speaker 2: And then it was like as I was taking that step,

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Speaker 2: the clarity came, the wisdom came, when I just stood

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Speaker 2: there and I was like, all right, God, give me

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Speaker 2: the answers. It was almost like I was like, hey,

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Speaker 2: just start, just start taking that step, and to watch

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Speaker 2: what I do. Watch how I will confirm that if

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Speaker 2: you look at it Day thirty, where it talks about

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Speaker 2: this voice behind you guiding you when you step to

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Speaker 2: the left or the right, it's this idea that when

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Speaker 2: you start taking the step, it's like he's directing it.

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Speaker 2: It's not before, it's actually when you start taking the

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Speaker 2: steps of Okay, God, is this the right move? Okay, okay,

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Speaker 2: you want me to move a little left, I'll move

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Speaker 2: a little left. And when I started to understand that,

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Speaker 2: a life of prayer and a life of connection with

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Speaker 2: God started to take on a different form than I

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Speaker 2: was like, God, I better get the exact answer, and

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Speaker 2: I bet it. Have all my boxes checked, and I

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Speaker 2: better know the point and all the sub points and

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Speaker 2: have all the clarity. And then I roise, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I'm just a control freak, and God's inviting me beyond

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Speaker 2: the anxiety that comes when I'm a control freak.

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Speaker 1: It's a really interest. I mean, they tell you this

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Speaker 1: in seminary. You know you'll never be able to apply

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Speaker 1: everything that you learn. And I think that's true, you

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Speaker 1: never are able to apply everything that you learn. But

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Speaker 1: I think what they sometimes miss is that in applying,

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Speaker 1: you're going to learn more than you could ever know.

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Speaker 1: And so you sort of sit back and you're like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I love going to Malachi three ten. It's

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Speaker 1: sort of been co opted sometimes by the health and

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Speaker 1: wealth kind of stuff, But you look at that dynamic,

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Speaker 1: it's perfectly describing what you're saying. God is telling me Israelites, Hey,

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Speaker 1: you've held back these sacrifices from Me and you're expecting

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Speaker 1: that to solve your immediate problem. The logic makes sense,

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Speaker 1: but the theologic doesn't make any sense, right, So bring

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Speaker 1: me the tithe test me, you know, test me by

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Speaker 1: trying me. This is the kind of test that we're

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Speaker 1: supposed to have. And I think it's a beautiful dynamic

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Speaker 1: that you're painting there with prayer, because it is just

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Speaker 1: it's not about saying the right words.

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Speaker 3: It's not like a magic incantation.

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Speaker 1: We have to get all the accents right and all

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Speaker 1: the you know, say all the right things, and then

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, that's like you know, rubbing the

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Speaker 1: Genie in the bottle and we get all our wishes.

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Speaker 3: The reality is it's about the process of just doing it. Yes,

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Speaker 3: I often use the now.

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Speaker 1: I was a personal trainer when I was doing my

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Speaker 1: MDIF and I'll tell people, you know, I never had

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Speaker 1: a client come in and say, Okay, today for your workout,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna sit in the corner and watch me lift.

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Speaker 1: Like there are just some things you have to do

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Speaker 1: yourself for you to get any benefit out of it.

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Speaker 3: You've actually got to do the work yourself.

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Speaker 1: And that's what I kind of hear you saying, is

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Speaker 1: that prayer has to become this practice because not so

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Speaker 1: much because it's a yes, it's an act of obedience,

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Speaker 1: but also it's really formative that will change you as

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Speaker 1: you do it, even when you're.

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Speaker 3: Not doing it, you know in the quote unquote.

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Speaker 1: Right way maybe right like you know they're not doing

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Speaker 1: it as you're the best prayer or something like that.

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Speaker 2: Sure, So okay to use your metaphor, because I think

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Speaker 2: that's a great metaphor. Jim showing up in the gym

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Speaker 2: uh regularly. You know, getting in the gym with a

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Speaker 2: with a regularity is more important than intensity. Wouldn't you agree, okay,

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Speaker 2: So so what what I have? What I have found,

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Speaker 2: So there's an interesting relationship here. What I've found is

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Speaker 2: showing up with what we have is a great place

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Speaker 2: to start. Now that being said, you know this, if

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Speaker 2: someone gets in the gym and they start doing an

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Speaker 2: exercise in a way that is going to hurt them,

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Speaker 2: injure them, they're going to end up being out of

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Speaker 2: the gym for a long time, okay, or unable to

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Speaker 2: do any kind of movement that is specific to that area.

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Speaker 2: And James, I think this is what has happened with prayer.

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Speaker 2: When you make yourself to hear or the villain of prayer,

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Speaker 2: you stop showing up because you become disillusioned, You become injured,

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Speaker 2: You bere like, no, this isn't working when I go

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Speaker 2: in here. Actually there's just there's more pain, there's more suffering.

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Speaker 2: I'm not able to navigate my daily life in a

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Speaker 2: way that's healthy. And no, it's not. It's not that

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Speaker 2: the gem is the problem necessarily, because pain is formative.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think about what Hebrews five says and

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Speaker 2: describing the sun. Though he was a son, he learned obedience,

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Speaker 2: he learned what it was to be a son through

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Speaker 2: the pain that he navigated, through what he suffered, and

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Speaker 2: I love what you called out from Alci three ten.

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Speaker 2: Going later in Hebrews Hebrews nine and ten, where the

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Speaker 2: writer of Hebrews is describing this dynamic of Look, God

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Speaker 2: doesn't want your transaction. Really, it's not about the blood

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Speaker 2: of bulls and goats. It's not about something that is

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Speaker 2: at arm's length. It's about purifying the consciousness of the worshiper.

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Speaker 2: The worshiper needs to be able to enter, going back

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Speaker 2: to chapter four, enter the Throne of Grace. If I'm

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Speaker 2: mercy and grace to help in their time of need.

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Speaker 2: There needs to be this confidence that isn't predicated on

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Speaker 2: what you've done and what you haven't done, but on

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Speaker 2: your submission. You're surrender to the work of Jesus in

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Speaker 2: the spirit of grace and the transformational power of grace,

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Speaker 2: which gives you the ability to do what you otherwise

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Speaker 2: can never do in your own strength. It's not about

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Speaker 2: your own moral muscle. It's about the work of the spirit,

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Speaker 2: the sanctifying work of the spirit that makes the impossible

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Speaker 2: possible in your life. And so for me, when it

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Speaker 2: comes to prayer. There there's so much religious bondage that

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Speaker 2: keeps people from moving from this place of self consciousness

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Speaker 2: to God consciousness. And when you're God conscious in prayer,

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Speaker 2: there is a freedom, there is a liberty. You're practicing

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Speaker 2: the right forms if you will, so you're able to

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Speaker 2: increase weight, You're able to go places with God in prayer.

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Speaker 2: And I'm talking getting real with God in prayer. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think about what Jesus, Jesus prays on the cross,

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Speaker 2: quoting David sal twenty two, My God, my God, will

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Speaker 2: have you forsaken me? I mean that's that. I honestly

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Speaker 2: think that is the most real prayer any of us

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Speaker 2: can pray. I think when when Hebrews two and Hebrews

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Speaker 2: four describes Jesus someone who is who has fully understood

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Speaker 2: the human experience, I think that right there that prayer

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Speaker 2: captures perfectly captures the greatest temptation of the human experience,

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Speaker 2: which is to believe that God has abandoned us. Sure,

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Speaker 2: because and you know, the end of Psalm twenty two

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Speaker 2: is actually this, I think is his first twenty four

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Speaker 2: is is you do not abandon the afflicted in their affliction,

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Speaker 2: nor do you turn your face from them, but you

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Speaker 2: hear when they call. And then Psalm twenty two is

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Speaker 2: this beautiful messianic psalm that talks about the reconciliation of

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Speaker 2: the nations being brought into you know, the Family of God,

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Speaker 2: the Kingdom of God. And so that's not where it ends,

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Speaker 2: but you better believe that's where it starts. And I

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Speaker 2: tell people all the time, listen, God does not tell

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Speaker 2: us to deny our pain, but we are invited to

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Speaker 2: defy our pain. And you cannot defy by pain if

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Speaker 2: you're not honest about its existence. And prayer is such

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Speaker 2: a powerful and intimate place for us to be honest

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Speaker 2: with God. To let messy words fly if you will.

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Speaker 2: That was what my book Words with God was all about,

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Speaker 2: the first one I wrote back in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: It was this idea, like a messy prayers, messy words

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Speaker 2: with God, there is there a right way to pray?

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Speaker 2: What does that look like? And I've had so many

429
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 2: people reach out to me who are in their sixties, seventies, eighties.

430
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 2: I had one gentleman reach out to me. He was

431
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 2: in his eighties and he said, I can only imagine

432
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 2: what my life would have been like. If I would

433
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 2: have read this book four decades ago when I got sicked,

434
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 2: he and he actually asked his daughter. I didn't know

435
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 2: this until after he passed, but he asked his daughter.

436
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,639
Speaker 2: He said, you know, when I passed, would you please

437
00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 2: reach out to Addison and ask him to do my

438
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,440
Speaker 2: funeral because the book had such an impact on his life,

439
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 2: which was, I mean, an incredible honor, and I was

440
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,800
Speaker 2: able to fly down and do his funeral. But my

441
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: point is this, my passion is I don't want people

442
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 2: to be held back in that place of prayer because

443
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 2: I think, James, I think even putting prayer in a

444
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,639
Speaker 2: spiritual discipline's bucket is problematic. And you might be like, okay,

445
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 2: and I've opened your pushback here because it still puts

446
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 2: it in this place of like something you do, you

447
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: start your stop. Don't get me wrong, there's certain types

448
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,360
Speaker 2: of prayer that would belong in that spiritual disciplines bucket,

449
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 2: but prayer isn't a thing on the list. It's the

450
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,879
Speaker 2: thing that energizes the entire list. And I think we're

451
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 2: losing We're losing people, especially younger generations, who I would

452
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 2: say are more spiritually just because the nature of our world.

453
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,360
Speaker 2: There's a spiritual hunger that's unique to gen Z and

454
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:45,160
Speaker 2: they're turning to manifesting, they're turning to diy spirituality, They're

455
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 2: turning to these other things. And I think a part

456
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 2: of it is we've lost the robustness of prayer. We've

457
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 2: truncated the domain of prayer. And I want people to

458
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: realize it's like when Paul is using temple language, like

459
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 2: in first Cindu history, when he calls us God's temple.

460
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 2: That's not hyperbolic. He's saying, your embodied experience is a

461
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 2: microcosm where Heaven touches Earth. God wants to inhabit your

462
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: embodied experience in a way that releases grace, is transforming power,

463
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 2: his spirit in and through you and into your world.

464
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 2: And that can't happen if we categorize and we systematize,

465
00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,639
Speaker 2: and we limit how God speaks to us and how

466
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:32,480
Speaker 2: He works through us. As you can talk so a

467
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 2: little passionate about.

468
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:35,679
Speaker 3: This, No, it's really helpful.

469
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I've thought a lot about the spiritual disciplines

470
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: and tried to get my head around them because one

471
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: of the things I used to have this buddy in

472
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 1: college and we talk about recipe theology, and recipe theology

473
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: is like you know, here, you just here's your list

474
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 1: of ingredients, and you do these things and then all

475
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you turn out in your life is wonderful.

476
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 1: And intuitively I kind of knew that was wrong, but

477
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,479
Speaker 1: then what's the alternative? And so when you look at

478
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: the spiritual disciplines, they can really start to feel like that.

479
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 1: They can feel like these are ingredients on your recipe list,

480
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: and whenever you use all of them, and you know

481
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: you bake the right cake, you're going to eat well.

482
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: And it's not exactly how we should be thinking about

483
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: them at all. But I also think prayer does hold

484
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 1: a unique place within the Christian life, and so there's

485
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: a fine line. And maybe you agree with this, maybe

486
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,080
Speaker 1: you won't, but I would say there's a fine line

487
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: between helping someone figure out how to move into prayer,

488
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: how to practice it, what to do with it, and

489
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: there does take some level of discipline or a renewed

490
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,480
Speaker 1: cadence of life, but ultimately that's not supposed to be

491
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: what you do your whole life. This should these things

492
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 1: I often talk about. It is like prayer should become

493
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: as necessary as breathing right, like it should just be

494
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 1: what we do. It's no longer a practice that I

495
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: put it into my day, It's just what I do.

496
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 1: And so, I mean, I wanted to ask a question

497
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 1: as you were talking. One of the things sort of

498
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: struck me is a lot of the things I've read

499
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: about prayer. You hear about the power of prayer and

500
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: how prayer can affect things, and you know, you hear,

501
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: you know, the old storage of George Mueller, right, this

502
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: man of prayer, and you know he gets this orphanage

503
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 1: funded all the time. Sometimes I think, you know, those

504
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: are amazing stories, obviously, but they also set a different

505
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: sort of standard right for prayer that doesn't always realize itself.

506
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 3: And so I'm wondering, if you think.

507
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: That prayer in our common church discourse, the discourse about

508
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: prayer that we normally use in our in our conversations,

509
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: how does it need to change so that we understand

510
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:52,400
Speaker 1: what prayer is.

511
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,399
Speaker 3: Going to do on a sort of a corporate level.

512
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 1: I think, you know, you kind of hit on this

513
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 1: a number of different ways, but I'm thinking about like

514
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: great awakenings, where you know, prayer is the first.

515
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 3: Thing we do, and those kind of aspects.

516
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: But I think there's a sense in which prayer can

517
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 1: become a little bit of a magic incantation, right where

518
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 1: we point our wand in something and it also transforms.

519
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 1: That's not the sense that I get from you, but

520
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: sometimes that's the sense I get when I'm reading about prayer.

521
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 1: I'm kind of like this sort of fell into a

522
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,159
Speaker 1: magical moment here. So, yeah, any thoughts on how we

523
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: situate prayer, how we begin to talk about prayer differently.

524
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 3: So that we really understand the dynamic that's happening here.

525
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I love that. And to go back to

526
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: what you're saying for me, don't. I don't like formulas.

527
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 2: I love frameworks. Though frameworks give us, give us handles,

528
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: but they create space for the Spirit of God to

529
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 2: personalize that experience in a way that reflects whatever we're

530
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 2: navigating in that day and whatever we're called to. So

531
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: there's so much when it comes to prayer about the

532
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: power component, which, don't get me wrong, prayer is, prayer

533
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 2: is powerful, and I've seen I've seen the power of

534
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: prayer in my life. I was just real quick. Sorry.

535
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,239
Speaker 2: This summer, I was speaking at a men's event and

536
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 2: this I mean, this is wild. I'm just gonna warn

537
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 2: you this is this is a wild war speaking out

538
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 2: of this men's event. I get up there and I

539
00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: have this pain in my back right like back right

540
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,120
Speaker 2: of and I'm like, what is this pain? And I'm

541
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 2: not ready to get up to speak, and they're finishing

542
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 2: worship and I get up there and I'm not please hearing,

543
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 2: Like I'm not someone who like gets up and I

544
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 2: do believe that God heals supernaturally, but I'm not someone

545
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:39,720
Speaker 2: who gets up there and they're like, all right, it's

546
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 2: healing ministry, like that's that's That's just not me. And

547
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: I just I'm just gonna leave it there. So I

548
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: get up there and there's just pain in my back fright,

549
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 2: and I'm like, God, what's going on? And then the

550
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 2: Holy Spirit, this this just comes out of my spirit,

551
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: I would say, through the back of my mind, into

552
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 2: the front of my mind, out of the deep mind,

553
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: and into my conscious experience, and I just I knew

554
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 2: that there was someone in this room who was experiencing

555
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: this pain and that God was going to heal them.

556
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: And I haven't I haven't preached, I haven't shared my message,

557
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 2: Like I'm just great, and I'm my God, like this

558
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 2: isn't like, this isn't my thing. I'm not going to

559
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 2: begin this message like I'm not started, Like what if

560
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 2: no one raises her hand?

561
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 3: I feel like.

562
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,240
Speaker 2: Just like this, Hey, did you forget who I am?

563
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 2: Like no, I'm more of the teacher, Like this is

564
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 2: not me anyway. So but it would lead me in

565
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: this sense, was just like, hey, God wants to heal

566
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 2: some Ofe's room. So I just go, okay, hey, if

567
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: you're here tonight and you've got a pain in your

568
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: back right and I just you know, described it very specific,

569
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 2: would you know, would you please would you please raise

570
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: your No one raises her and I'm like, oh gosh,

571
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: And I just gave it like ten seconds. And then

572
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 2: second row, right in front of me, this young man

573
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: raises his hand, and I knew it wasn't about me.

574
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: I did don't want the room to make it about me,

575
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 2: and I just I told the guys around, was like, hey, guys,

576
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: would you please just lay hands on him and pray

577
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 2: for him. God God's going to heal him. And so

578
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,479
Speaker 2: I didn't do anything. They prayed, they laid prayed on him.

579
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 2: I didn't even want to know if anything happened, because

580
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: I didn't want my message.

581
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 4: I didn't want that in my head when I was speaking,

582
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 4: So I went through, did my you know, share the

583
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 4: message got done, and this young man comes up to

584
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 4: me and he tells me I was in a terrible

585
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 4: motorcycle accident.

586
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 2: I've lived in chronic pain for two years. I told God,

587
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 2: I said, I can't even go to this event's not

588
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: I can't sit for two hours. And he just sensed.

589
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,240
Speaker 2: I told God, tell me, if you go tonight, I'm

590
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 2: going to heal you. And and he was. He was

591
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 2: miraculously healed. Saw in the next day healed heard a

592
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,239
Speaker 2: story after it healed, had had multiple surgeries like all

593
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: they said. It was just completely healed. The pain was

594
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: completely gone. I know I had nothing to do with that,

595
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 2: but I also know like there was a prayerful component.

596
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:00,560
Speaker 2: He was praying. I was praying going into the service.

597
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 2: God moved in did something miraculous. But here's the key

598
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 2: when it comes to prayer, its presence. We typically make

599
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 2: it about the second, the third thing, the fourth thing,

600
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 2: the key to prayer. And you can even see this

601
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 2: in the Lord's prayer. Because Jesus didn't give us many things.

602
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 2: We're very clear. Was like, this is how you do something,

603
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: and he was pretty clear with the Lord's Prayer. He's like, hey,

604
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: there's something to the Lord's Prayer that we need to

605
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: be careful not to move past. And what he's saying saying, Hey,

606
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: the opening movement of the Lord's Prayer is actually a

607
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: call to realize the reality of Emmanuel. And so for me,

608
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 2: when it comes to prayer, I firmly believe even the

609
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: power of prayer, and I've seen this in my life

610
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: comes from when I'm living in the reality of Emmanuel

611
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 2: God with us. Then from that place, and that's why

612
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 2: I think the shame and the voice of the accuser.

613
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: I tell people you struggle to hear the voice of

614
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: God or articke the voice of God because you look

615
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: for his voice in the tone and tenor of the accuser.

616
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: You expect God and the voice of God to sound

617
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 2: like the tone in the tenor of the accuser. And

618
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: that's not how God communicates. It's just that's not how

619
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: the spirit of God leads and guides and woos and forms,

620
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: and so that's that's that's how I explain it to people. Look,

621
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: it's actually about presence and then from presence. And this

622
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: is why Saul five three, I'm a big fan of

623
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 2: what David says in the morning. You hear my voice

624
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: in the morning, I prepare a sacrifice or I lift

625
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 2: my prayer to you, and I watch he's describing this

626
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 2: awareness that we even understand now through physiology studying physiology.

627
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: When you wake in the morning, there's a sensitivity. You're

628
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 2: a reticulated activist, activating system. It can go inward and

629
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 2: not just outward in the morning. That that's unique to

630
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: the morning, where you can be more aware of the

631
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: entire embodied experience, what's happening within your deep mind, the

632
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: unconscious level. You're more sensitive in the morning. But if

633
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: you pick up your phone, what do you do? That

634
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: experience ends to start feeding just disrupted. You start feeding

635
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: the idea that you need to be omniscient or omnipresent,

636
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 2: all knowing, You need to be all places, know all things,

637
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 2: which is what the phone represents. First thing in the morning,

638
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,479
Speaker 2: you shortcut what God's trying to do in your body

639
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: on a physically physiological physically, oh, physiological level, tough word today,

640
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 2: physiological level. You shortcut that with how you're engaging first

641
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 2: thing in the morning. So there's there's so much of that,

642
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: But for me, James, is about presence.

643
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 3: It's interesting.

644
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: We did a campaign called go Darksheine Bright and one

645
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: of the things we were it came about we were

646
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: kind of saying, how do we how do we help

647
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 1: God's people pray more?

648
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 3: What does that look like?

649
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 1: And what we ended up hitting on was prayer was

650
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: in competition with shopping on Amazon, scrolling Facebook, you know,

651
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: watching reels on Instagram, you know, all this kind of stuff.

652
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: And so what we challenge people to do is to

653
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: take a seven day fast off social media completely and

654
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: replace that.

655
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 3: Time with Bible study, prayer.

656
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: And then we did some guides and different things like that,

657
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: and people really resonated with it. I mean, the testimonies

658
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 1: we got back were, I do feel God's presence more

659
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: in my life. I feel more almost like awake and

660
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: aware of what's going on around me, as opposed to

661
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 1: having ourselves buried in the phone. And I think you've

662
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: mentioned this narrative a couple of times at Genesis three narrative,

663
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: where you know, we tend to think that the more

664
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: we know, the better off we are, and this is

665
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: sort of at least part of the temptation that Eve

666
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: is given. Right, Hey, you can know right now, you

667
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: can get this information right at this moment, you no

668
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 1: longer have to live in this paradise with God. You

669
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: could be freed from this prison and just you know,

670
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: realize your full potential right at this moment. But what

671
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: we consistently heard back from people who did the challenge

672
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: was man stepping away from it. I just feel so

673
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: much more at peace, at rest. And there was a

674
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 1: sense in which a couple of the people I talked to,

675
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: they said, no, I felt God's presence more, or I

676
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: felt wiser, I didn't feel just inundated with stuff right.

677
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 1: And so we had several folks tell us that they

678
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: just didn't go back on social media, that they kept

679
00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: up that cadence, kept up that practice and.

680
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 3: Enjoyed it.

681
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: And so I think there is something too the way

682
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: we've managed ourselves, the way we've sort of put ourselves

683
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: in the position of needing to have all the information

684
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: we could ever possibly have at our fingertips. It is

685
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: very disruptive early morning, one hundred percent and even throughout

686
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 1: the rest of the day. I think we're really short

687
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: changing ourselves of what we could be, what we could

688
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: be experiencing, versus what we are actually experiencing.

689
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely. And the structure of the prayer journal that

690
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier, what the way that I built it

691
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 2: is the first movement, so at forty days and every

692
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 2: day has the same structure. There's a reflect component that

693
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 2: invite people to engage with the reality of God in

694
00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: a way that kind of like, huh, that's a little different.

695
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: So I tease out different qualities of God or a

696
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,440
Speaker 2: life of prayer that might make people pause and have

697
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 2: to reflect. Then it goes into this place of recenter.

698
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,959
Speaker 2: So the first one is reflect, then it's recenter. And

699
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,399
Speaker 2: the idea of recenter is it's a breath prayer. It's

700
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 2: just I am here, and the reality is that we

701
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 2: can only be in this place. We were prone to

702
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: chronological wanderings, but only God exists outside of time and space,

703
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 2: and we don't get to do that. And so this

704
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 2: idea of God, I'm going to surrender to what you're

705
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 2: doing right here, to the presence here, whether that's other

706
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: people or that's you here with me. The reality of

707
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 2: I am here, God is here in our midst So

708
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 2: like that's that prayer. I am here, and then it

709
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 2: moves into rest because rest is not easy to enter

710
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 2: into and people are like, oh, well, what am I

711
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 2: going to do? How do I rest? And so for me,

712
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 2: it's like, hey, let's reflect, then let's recenter. Then we're

713
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,520
Speaker 2: actually gonna be able to rest. And I invite people

714
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 2: to articulate and release any thoughts, any ideas that are

715
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 2: keeping them from rest. People don't realize that that's actually prayer.

716
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 2: If you're writing down to if you're identifying, Hey, God,

717
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 2: these are the things that are keeping me from rest

718
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: right now with you, that is a form of prayer.

719
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: And then after they release, then there's an invitation there

720
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: to receive. So, okay, take inventory of how God has

721
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 2: come through for you, what you've received from him, Where

722
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 2: was the evidence of his goodness yesterday? And then what

723
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 2: are you asking God to do today? Not in a

724
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: petulant or childish way, but when we ask, we become aware,

725
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 2: We start to connect the dots. We see how God's

726
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 2: moving in our world. And we're invited to ask with boldness,

727
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: with assurance, not because we're we're going to get everything

728
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 2: that we demand, but because we have the right relationally

729
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 2: to go to our Father and ask, and then ultimately

730
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: he's going to decide whether that's best for us or not.

731
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: But we are to come to him with boldness and ask.

732
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 2: And the final thing is respond, What is the spirit

733
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 2: of God leading you to do today? What is that

734
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 2: one thing? Those two things? And that's the structure that

735
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,280
Speaker 2: I use. But something that came out of the Words

736
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 2: with God book was that prayer I am here. And

737
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 2: so many people now have told me I use that

738
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: prayer all throughout the day when I feel overwhelmed, when

739
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: when I feel lost within the shuffle and the hustle

740
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 2: of the day, they take a neat breath and pray

741
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 2: I am here. But James, as I'm talking talking to you,

742
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about this because I preached a message at

743
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: this church back in July, and it was all about

744
00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 2: how we wake determines how we watch, which determines how

745
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 2: we worship. Right, So it is that and it was

746
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 2: from Psalm five specifically, But how we wake determines how

747
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 2: we watch or what we see. Because you're ras in

748
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: the morning, if you feed it one thing, the rest

749
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 2: of the day, you're going to see that thing. You're

750
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 2: going it's the confirmation bias. It's that reality and your

751
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 2: RAS is your gatekeeper of consciousness. So you're going to

752
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 2: look for things that confirm and affirm that belief. And

753
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 2: so if you feed black, if you feed self sufficiency,

754
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 2: if you're doing that first thing more, it's going to

755
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: compromise the rest of your day. But you hit the

756
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 2: nail on the head. You set attention. And the reality

757
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: is attention is the currency of our day. Everyone in

758
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,399
Speaker 2: our world is fighting for our attention. And so when

759
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: you defy the systems, the structure of our world. And

760
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 2: even if it's just the first hour of the day,

761
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: if you say, look, I'm not going to get on

762
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 2: my phone for the first hour of the day. And

763
00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: I've been doing this for years, but I'm not gonna

764
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: get on my phone for the first hour of the day.

765
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 2: I'm telling you like a disproportionate effect. If you sacrifice

766
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 2: that set it aside. You wake, you listen, you read scripture.

767
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:46,800
Speaker 2: You don't get up and perform. You get up in

768
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,240
Speaker 2: your sensitive to what the spirit of God is telling

769
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,280
Speaker 2: you to read. I'm telling you journal right down. Whatever

770
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 2: it is the spirit of God speaking to you, I'm

771
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 2: telling you it'll transform your life. So I shared this

772
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 2: message back in July with this church, and it's a

773
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 2: church I'm a teaching pastor, and I go back there

774
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,359
Speaker 2: few times a year, and I went I went back

775
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: there a couple of weeks ago. I probably had fifty

776
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 2: fifty people come up to me and say, hey, I

777
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 2: started doing what you did, what you told us to

778
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 2: do with that list, and it's completely changed their life,

779
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: like my life. I can honestly tell you my life

780
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:18,399
Speaker 2: is completely different today than it was five months ago.

781
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 2: And it was just that first hour in the morning.

782
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think people don't give enough credibility,

783
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 1: and I think we're seeing more and more research come

784
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 1: out of it. But the you know, we're not a

785
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: distinct mind and a distinct body. In other words, those

786
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: two are really intertwined together. We're a whole, integrated beings

787
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: and so you can't parse this stuff out. It's not

788
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: as if you decide you're going to go on a

789
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 1: you know, no sleep bender for a week, you're going

790
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 1: to be particularly functional after the end of that. I mean,

791
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 1: I think there's a reason that, you know, after Elijah

792
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 1: does his you know, little marathon away from Jezebel and

793
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: finds himself in the desert alone. You know, he's distraught

794
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: and he you know, you can just the exhaustion. And

795
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,440
Speaker 1: that is not just spiritual exhaustion emotional exhaustion. There's a

796
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: physical aspect of this as well. All of it's sort

797
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: of intertwined, and so I think we have to be

798
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 1: really careful about how we're allowing our physical bodies to

799
00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 1: interact with the world. And I would just say, I mean,

800
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 1: I love Ian Mcgilchris's work. He's done a lot of

801
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: work on attention. He's got some really interesting stuff. And

802
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 1: one of the things he's emphasized is, you know, attention

803
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 1: is a moral action, and I've kind of picked up

804
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:35,839
Speaker 1: on that says it's not really a moral action, it's

805
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: a theological action first, because yeah, when we recognize God

806
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: as infinitely more relevant than any other actor or a

807
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: factor we're going to face during the day, now our

808
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 1: attention is rightly oriented and we're well prepared then to

809
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 1: respond to God from within situations as opposed to responding

810
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: to situations as if he's not there. And I think

811
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 1: this mode of prayer that you're talking about, this way

812
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: of thinking about prayer, fits so well. With that we

813
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 1: enter into a theological.

814
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 3: World early in the morning.

815
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 1: This is now the symbolic world that we inhabit, a

816
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: world where God actually exists, where He is active and present,

817
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: where we can experience Him throughout our day versus you know,

818
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: a world that is largely contained on a small device

819
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: and is really knocking us around, you know, depending on

820
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: whether it's good news that day, bad news that.

821
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 3: Day, rumor here, rumor there like.

822
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: This is not the symbolic and theological world we want

823
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: to inhabit. We want to inhabit the temple of God.

824
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 1: We want to be in the sanctuary with him. We

825
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: want to be in his presence, and this is where

826
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 1: we want to land.

827
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I had a situation yesterday, James where I

828
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 2: you know, as I mentioned, I've been doing this for years,

829
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: and I will tell you it's been probably the most

830
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: transformative thing I've ever done. I actually struggle with insomnia

831
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: for five years.

832
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 3: Wow.

833
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 2: And I made it all about what I was doing

834
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 2: at night, but when I actually changed what I was

835
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 2: doing in the morning the morning. Actually, I know that

836
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 2: sounds crazy, and I've shared that with different people because

837
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 2: I write a lot about this in Words with God,

838
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 2: specifically the insomnia but when I started to see that

839
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: differently in the mornings, and how that does set the

840
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: attention for the rest of the day. I love how

841
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 2: you said it's a theological issue. And as you were

842
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 2: saying that, I threw that in there behold. This is

843
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 2: that concept of behold. You'll find it thousands thousands of

844
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 2: times in scripture, and it's this invitation you don't see

845
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: things as they truly are. You should look again or

846
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 2: be willing to be held by something that you haven't seen,

847
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 2: that you haven't held before. And as you do that,

848
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 2: things start to change in your world. But yesterday, so

849
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: I got a call. I got a call from a

850
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: friend who's navigating an extremely difficult situation. Her husband is

851
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 2: on his deathbed and they live in you my Arizona,

852
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 2: And she called me early in the morning, late at

853
00:44:05,239 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: night and early in the morning, and you know, I

854
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: didn't have didn't have my phone on me, and I

855
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 2: came out of that time and I immediately saw I

856
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,239
Speaker 2: had a call from her. Well you, I mean, you

857
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: know you served in this role. It is very difficult

858
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: to enter into that moment with people. Yeah, and we

859
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 2: feel this pressure when you enter into that moment. You

860
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: want to have the right words. And of course the

861
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 2: gift of presents is the most powerful gift right in

862
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 2: a moment like this. But when you don't, we're not

863
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 2: able to give them the gift of presents because they're

864
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 2: in Arizona. That looks different. I'm telling you, James, it

865
00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,880
Speaker 2: was way better for her and for me that I

866
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 2: called her. After I came out of that time. I

867
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 2: was a I was a better friend, I was a

868
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 2: better man. When I think about my kids, you know,

869
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 2: I've got four kids getting I'm ready for school yesterday.

870
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 2: I'm a better father for them getting them out the

871
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: door to school because I've had that time where I'm

872
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 2: not feeding this belief that I am God and that

873
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 2: I need to order my world in a way that

874
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 2: a God could or a God would. Instead, I'm looking

875
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: for the reality of God, the Kingdom of God becoming

876
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 2: real in my life through the work of the Spirit.

877
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 2: I'm looking for that, and what's happening I'm watching. I'm

878
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 2: seeing differently, And I love what Psalm FO talks about,

879
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 2: because when you prepare this sacrifice, the sacrifice of attention,

880
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 2: you watch differently. It says, I prepare sacrifice for me

881
00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: and I watch you start to see things that you

882
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: couldn't see before, and it's like, and how did I

883
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 2: miss this?

884
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 5: It was always right here? And God's like, well, if

885
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 5: I would have shown you this, it would have only

886
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 5: fed this strange idea that you had this idolatrous notion

887
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 5: that you are God, and you would have gone deeper

888
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 5: than your problem. And I tell people, and I wrote

889
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 5: this words with God.

890
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 2: I tell people God is a way of not delivering

891
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,719
Speaker 2: us from a thing when he knows that that thing

892
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:01,760
Speaker 2: is ultimately going to deliver us to him. And he's like, look,

893
00:46:02,040 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 2: it's not this thing that you really want, it's actually me.

894
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,760
Speaker 2: And then that thing becomes whatever it needs to be, because,

895
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 2: as you know, James, there's always a thing after the thing.

896
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 2: Like you might move through one thing and then there's

897
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: another one, and then there's another one, and there's another one.

898
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 3: Yeah.

899
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, it never stops. It's always that endless pursuit

900
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: of something. And if that endless pursuit of something isn't God,

901
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 1: we get ourselves into trouble. I've thought about this in

902
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,720
Speaker 1: a number of different ways. I haven't thought about it

903
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 1: in terms of prayer, but you know, in terms of

904
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: making decisions what does it look like for us to

905
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,439
Speaker 1: make decisions so that only God gets the glory, keeping

906
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: our attention tied to him even as we're making certain

907
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: decisions and really kind of looking through the scriptures and

908
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 1: seeing how different characters make decisions that are God glorifying

909
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: even though they don't really make a lot of sense,

910
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,800
Speaker 1: you know, And it's like, these are the kind.

911
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:57,840
Speaker 3: Of things we need to master.

912
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 1: But I think to your point, we master them by

913
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 1: starting well every day. We master them by entering into

914
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 1: this world where we recognize that God is present, that

915
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: He is God and we are not. And just those

916
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: basic sort of theological affirmations now prime us to make

917
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 1: better decisions through our day. They prime us to really

918
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: enter into prayer at various moments in our lives. And so, yeah,

919
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,239
Speaker 1: I really I love the way you've.

920
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 3: Phrased that night.

921
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: I think that the way you talk about prayer has

922
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 1: a much more biblical and theological feel to it than

923
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,879
Speaker 1: just prayers and practice here go do it, which I love.

924
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, thank you, thank you. It's been a it's

925
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 2: been a journey for me. Yeah, it's been a hard

926
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 2: journey for me.

927
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 1: I believe it, man, I always I've had a few

928
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 1: people want to talk about prayer, and I always I'm

929
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: really honest, I'm like, I do I still write out prayers.

930
00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 1: I have trouble keeping my attention, and so I still

931
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: write out prayers. And it's like, I wouldn't necessarily recommend

932
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 1: that everybody do that, but it's it's one of the

933
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: ways that helps me to focus in on what I'm doing.

934
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 1: And so I think there's always that Studying always came

935
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: really easy for me.

936
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,239
Speaker 3: Prayer was always really difficult.

937
00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: And I think part of it is that, you know,

938
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: to pray is in part to just surrender control, and

939
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 1: it involves that at the very least, and that's not

940
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 1: something I usually like to do. So, yeah, I'm with

941
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: you on the prayers a journey.

942
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:36,080
Speaker 3: Let me ask you if we're getting kind of to

943
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 3: the end of the episode. So I usually ask my

944
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 3: guests one last question.

945
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: I'm kind of interested in this because you know you're

946
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 1: doing you're doing a lot of stuff.

947
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 3: You're doing prayer, you're doing discipleship, and.

948
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: So here's the question, what's one thing that you see

949
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,000
Speaker 1: the church sort of falling short on God's people falling

950
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: short on that they really need to be doing faithfully

951
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: in order to be and make disciples in today's world.

952
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 2: Wow. I mean that's that's a big question. Uh, of course,

953
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 2: of course, my my ben is going to go toward prayer. Yeah.

954
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 2: And you know, and this idea of rediscovering prayer uh

955
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:26,319
Speaker 2: as as the as the central life force of the

956
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: Christian life, because it's so easy for it to devolve

957
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 2: into so many different things where it becomes a social club,

958
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,440
Speaker 2: where it becomes a you know, a religious competition. I mean,

959
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 2: there's there's so many things that we we just look

960
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 2: at church history where we missed it and and I

961
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 2: feel I feel that you mentioned earlier episode, like this

962
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 2: call to revival or practicing the presence or this awareness

963
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 2: that God is moving me, He's doing something in our generation,

964
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,800
Speaker 2: He's doing something in this moment. I think it's respecting

965
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:04,480
Speaker 2: the the presence of God and the presence of others.

966
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: I think it's it's I think it's that convergence is

967
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:12,280
Speaker 2: like practicing the presence of God in community and letting

968
00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 2: the sacredness of the presence of God, letting that spill

969
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 2: into our everyday lives. I mean, you know, the idea

970
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:24,320
Speaker 2: of consecration, it's this idea of like with the sacred,

971
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 2: and so you're doing it with the sacred. So if

972
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:32,839
Speaker 2: I'm consecrating my life, I'm doing it from this, this understanding,

973
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: from this revelation that Paul uses again and again when

974
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 2: he calls his holy ones, he calls his saints and

975
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 2: his epistles. This idea that my life is holy and

976
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 2: the God's doing a holy work through the intersection of

977
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 2: the presence of the people that He's put in my world,

978
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,280
Speaker 2: and what happens when we connect those dots really is powerful.

979
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 2: It's it's synergistic. It's that idea one can put a

980
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,880
Speaker 2: thousand of flight two and put ten thousand, and I

981
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 2: think discipleship, and I've seen this. I'm a part of

982
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,799
Speaker 2: a men's group on Tuesday mornings, a couple's group every

983
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,800
Speaker 2: other Tuesday night, and then I lead a younger men's

984
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 2: estopship group on Thursday evenings every other Thursday evening. And

985
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:18,840
Speaker 2: those moments where we just create space for God to move,

986
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 2: they energize and they feel the rest of our days.

987
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 2: And so it's this idea of both being intentional but

988
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 2: then also opening up and allowing them more of our lives,

989
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 2: more of our sense of self to belong to the

990
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 2: holiness and the presence and the active nature of God.

991
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, it's really helpful.

992
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 1: I think so often we get hung up on the

993
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: idea of holiness being about our moral character. It's not

994
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 1: that that's missing from the definition. An over emphasis on

995
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 1: it tends to leave us without these sort of cultic

996
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 1: and sacred varies, sort of present activities where we are

997
00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: ushered into a moment where we.

998
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 3: Are really consecrated to God. So yeah, I love the

999
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 3: way you explain that.

1000
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 1: Well, Man, tell tell folks where they can get Well,

1001
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: you can get your book at Baker book House dot com.

1002
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's available everywhere, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, all

1003
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:25,760
Speaker 1: those fun places. I'd encourage people to get both Words

1004
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 1: with God, but also then the new one Words with

1005
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: God Prayer Journal, Right, I understand the intended to go together,

1006
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 1: and then check out recover I'm sorry, Rediscover Prayer dot com.

1007
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 1: Rediscover Prayer dot com. I'll have the links to all

1008
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: this stuff in the show notes, but I don't have

1009
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: the Messenger International website.

1010
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 3: Is there a website you want to provide people with that.

1011
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,479
Speaker 2: I think the best oneud be messenger x dot com.

1012
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 2: That's our establiship app. We have millions of users on

1013
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 2: that app in virtually every country and so that would

1014
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 2: that would be a great place to start. Messenger x

1015
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 2: dot com.

1016
00:53:01,040 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 1: Messenger x dot com, Addison Man, thanks for being here.

1017
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 3: This is a This is a great conversation.

1018
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 1: I enjoy these, you know, it's nice to be It's

1019
00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,399
Speaker 1: nice to have somebody who really has mastered their understanding

1020
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:14,720
Speaker 1: of something on and we can.

1021
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 3: Have like a really good back and forth. It's a

1022
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 3: lot of fun for me.

1023
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: So this has been great, and uh, I'm I'm kind

1024
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: of motivated to get get back in and uh, you know,

1025
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:26,240
Speaker 1: figure out the presence of God myself.

1026
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 3: Make sure I'm not.

1027
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: You know, checking my phone right when I get up

1028
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,040
Speaker 1: out of bed, and so some good practical tips here too.

1029
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,279
Speaker 2: So thanks, thank you, James. That means a lot.

1030
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: All right, everybody, Well we'll catch you on the next

1031
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian.

1032
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 3: Take Care.

1033
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the

1034
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on

1035
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to life audio

1036
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts

1037
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: in their network. They've got shows about prayer, Bible study,

1038
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: parenting and more