1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Life Audio. This is Donna Jones and you are listening 2 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: to That's just what I needed. Hey, friend, if you've 3 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: ever been in a conversation where you've walked away thinking, Wow, 4 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,119 Speaker 1: that was just what I needed, you know how life 5 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: giving that can be, Well, that's what this podcast is 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: all about. We're women who want to know, love, and 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: follow God in our real lives, but sometimes wonder just 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: how to do it. So each week we'll talk about 9 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: what following God looks like in the midst of daily 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: demands and crazy cultural chaos. Because this isn't just what 11 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: we need, it's actually exactly what we need. Hey, hey, 12 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: my friend, welcome to the podcast. I have such an 13 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: interesting interview for you today. I learned so much from 14 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: this podcast, and I have a sneaking suspicion you are 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: about to learn a lot more than you bargained for 16 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: in just the next few minutes. Let me tell you 17 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: a little bit about today's guest. His name is Brent McCracken. 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: Brent is the senior editor for the Gospel Coalition, and 19 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 1: for two decades now, Brett has written articles and books 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: that have helped Christians love the church, understand cultural trends, 21 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: and engage in arts with thoughtful appreciation. Now, in recent years, 22 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: his emphasis has been on living in the digital age, 23 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: and this began with his really influential book called The 24 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: Wisdom Pyramid, followed by a co edited book called Scrolling 25 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: Ourselves to Death. Love that title. And today though, we're 26 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: going to be discussing his latest book that just came out, 27 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: called The Wisdom of Sleep. Now, let me get you excited. 28 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: This is way more than about just needing sleep. We 29 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: all know that, no, no, no, this discussion goes way 30 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: deeper than that. I am excited for you to listen 31 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: to this one. Welcome to the podcast. 32 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: Thanks, thank you, thanks for having me Donna. 33 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 1: Okay, I have to tell you I am so excited 34 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: about this book that you have written because I feel 35 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: like I need it. Tell us the title of your 36 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 1: brand new book and what even inspired you to write this? 37 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's called The Wisdom of Sleep. How rest reveals 38 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 2: God's truth and revives weary souls. So, I mean, I 39 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,519 Speaker 2: think I wrote it for a couple of reasons. One 40 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 2: is I just I'm a parent of young kids, and 41 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 2: if you've ever been in that life stage, you know 42 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: that sleep is so interrupted and it's such a frocked 43 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: thing in both your own sleep and your kids sleep 44 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 2: that it just looms large in everyday life, like the 45 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 2: topic of sleep. So being in this life stage that 46 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 2: I'm in, we have four kids ages eight, six, four, 47 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 2: and seven months, have a newborn baby right now, So 48 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,800 Speaker 2: I think it's just a topic that I've been thinking 49 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: a lot a lot about in living kind of the 50 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 2: ups and downs of in my own life. But it's 51 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: also just a topic. For a long time I've been 52 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: theologically interested in. I don't know where that originated as 53 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: a kind of interest area for me, but there was 54 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: like a John MacArthur sermon a long time ago that 55 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 2: I heard on sleep that planted a seed of fascination 56 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: with me about a theology of sleep, kind of looking 57 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 2: into the question of why would God create us to 58 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: have this biological necessity like to have to sleep a 59 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,080 Speaker 2: third of our lives? Like that's significant, you know, so 60 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 2: that might feel wasteful to some people, like why would 61 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: God intentionally design us this way? So that question really 62 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 2: has driven my interest in it as well as just 63 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 2: the personal kind of life stage struggling with sleep as 64 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: a weary parent of little babies. 65 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: Okay, well, two things that you just mentioned there, like 66 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: you are in that life stage where it's chaotic because 67 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:06,839 Speaker 1: you have young kids. But you know what, Brett, as 68 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: I talk to people, this is something that affects everybody, 69 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: because I'm thinking about my mom, who is in her 70 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: eighties and she has said, like I get terrible sleep, 71 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: I struggle with really good sleep. A lot of people 72 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: that I know. It's not just one life stage. It 73 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: really affects most of us. And if you're listening to 74 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: this and it doesn't affect you, then maybe Brett and 75 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: I need your secret, because I think at some point 76 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,280 Speaker 1: it does. But I love the fact that you then 77 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: said there's a theology of sleep, because I think we 78 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: kind of know biologically we need sleep, but I never 79 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: even thought about the theology of sleep. So tell us 80 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: what you mean by that and kind of what you've 81 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: learned about that. 82 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, the title of the book, the Wisdom of Sleep, 83 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 2: kind of is two meanings. There's the meaning of like 84 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 2: it's wise to sleep, like science and health professionals would 85 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 2: tell you it's a wise thing to sleep. So that's 86 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: one aspect of the Wisdom of Sleep, but kind of 87 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 2: the bigger aspect that I'm really exploring in this book 88 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 2: is the wisdom of sleep as a teacher of truths 89 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 2: about who God is, as our creator, as the one 90 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 2: who created this phenomenon of sleep, who gives it to 91 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 2: us as a gift. Psalm one twenty seven says He 92 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: gives his beloved sleep. So Scripture specifically says sleep is 93 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: a gift of a gracious God. And so what do 94 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: we learn about God by examining sleep. Theology is just 95 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 2: what we know about God, what we think about who 96 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: God is. That's what theology is. So I'm looking at 97 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 2: sleep as a kind of one aspect of what we 98 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 2: can learn about God through this very specific thing, And 99 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,320 Speaker 2: there's actually a lot there. As I got to researching 100 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 2: and writing the book, it was really beautiful and surprising 101 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: to me how many layers of sleep teaches us about 102 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 2: God's grace, about his sovereignty, about the fact that He's 103 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 2: a resurrecting God. Every night of sleep is like a death, 104 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 2: and every morning is like a resurrection where we are 105 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 2: risen to new life by an external grace given to us. 106 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: So there's just so many aspects to sleep that I 107 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 2: think if we just reflect on it a little bit, 108 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 2: that we don't really reflect on sleep on a philosophical 109 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 2: level often or ever. 110 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about it now forever. 111 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: I probably do more than the average person. But I'm 112 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 2: weird in that way. But I hope that this book 113 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: is just an invitation to readers to think about this 114 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 2: topic in a way they haven't thought about it before. 115 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,359 Speaker 2: It's not a book that's kind of the health hacked, 116 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 2: like how to have a good night's Sleep. I get 117 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: into the science a little bit, but it's not really 118 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 2: about that. It's more about how can we kind of 119 00:06:55,320 --> 00:07:00,279 Speaker 2: learn to love God more by appreciating and learning about 120 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 2: this gift that He's given to us. 121 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: Okay, and I have to tell you. I started reading 122 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 1: your book and you are an amazing writer, and it's 123 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 1: really beautifully written, and also it's fascinating actually, so I 124 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: want to ask you a little bit more about what 125 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: we learn about God. But before I do, I want 126 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: to dive a little bit into some of the statistics, 127 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 1: because you do talk about that in the book. And 128 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: the reason I want to talk about this up front 129 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: is because you mentioned this as a gift from God, right, 130 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: and so our enemy, the devil always goes after the 131 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: things that are gifts. From God. We don't usually think 132 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: about the fact that that might be a tool of 133 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: the enemy, that this whole culture, hustle culture where sleep 134 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: is kind of secondary versus primary. So tell us a 135 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: little bit about some of the stats that you found 136 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: regarding sleep and what's going on in our lives. 137 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 2: Right, I don't have them in front of me, so 138 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 2: I'm probably not going to be able to rattle off 139 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 2: specific stats. I can talk generally about kind of some 140 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 2: big picture like trends that I found. I mean, one 141 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,200 Speaker 2: is just the pervasiveness of sleep struggles in sleep disorders. 142 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,640 Speaker 2: I don't know the specific stat but a large percentage 143 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 2: of people don't get a good night's sleep for whatever reason, 144 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 2: you know, whether it's a diagnosed sleep disorder or just 145 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 2: anxiety or things like that. So that gets to what 146 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 2: you just said, Donna, about like the spiritual warfare aspect 147 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 2: of this. Like you're so right. The greatest gifts in 148 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: God's creation that he gives us are like enemy number 149 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 2: one for the devil. Whether we're talking about family or marriage, 150 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 2: which are some of God's greatest gifts, we know that 151 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 2: he likes to attack those things, and I think sleep 152 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 2: is another thing like that. It's a really good gift. 153 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 2: It's this miracle of restoration that God built into our 154 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: very design, where every night sleep restores us physically, mentally, 155 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,080 Speaker 2: emotionally like. And so of course, like Satan wants to 156 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 2: disrupt that and he wants to, you know, make sleep 157 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 2: this realm that we don't appreciate and that we don't 158 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: kind of eagerly prioritize in our lives. Some of the 159 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 2: like statistics that I talk about in there's a chapter 160 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 2: in the book that goes over all the health benefits 161 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 2: of sleep, and that stuff is really fascinating to me. 162 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 2: It's like every year, like the scientific consensus is just 163 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: growing that like sleep could be like the best single 164 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 2: thing you can do for your overall health. Yes, exercise important, 165 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 2: diet super important, but actually sleep might be more important 166 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 2: than those two things in terms of all the health 167 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 2: things that are tied to good sleep. And the flip 168 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 2: side is true, something like seven out of the fifteen 169 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 2: leading causes of death are tied to lack of sleep 170 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 2: or poor sleep habits. So if you don't prioritize sleep, 171 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: there's all sorts of bad things health outcomes that can 172 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 2: come as a result of that. Cardiac issues, diabetes, you know, 173 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 2: even like Alzheimer's. I think there's studies that tie diseases 174 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: like that to poor sleep. There's a lot empirically that 175 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 2: science is showing us about sleep, and that's important. But 176 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: again my book, I'm trying to go kind of more philosophical, 177 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: deeper level, because science tells us sleep is great, but 178 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 2: as Christians we can look at it as a miracle 179 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 2: in a different way. It's a miracle because it shows 180 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 2: us the Gospel and miniature. It's like a little rehearsal 181 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 2: of the Gospel itself, And to me, that's just amazing. 182 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: Okay, so let's go there, because this is going to 183 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: be a brand new idea. I pretty much brought you 184 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: for everyone. So you said it's like a little miniature 185 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: of the Gospel, So explain to us what you mean 186 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: by that and how that's so. 187 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 2: I think one thing that's helpful is just thinking about 188 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: the way sleep looks like. It literally looks like death. 189 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 2: When you lie down to sleep at night, it's ear 190 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: really similar to what a corpse looks like. Laying flat, 191 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 2: eyes closed, you're kind of in another altered state of consciousness. 192 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,199 Speaker 2: We even use that phrase dead to the world right, 193 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 2: My four year old is so asleep right now that 194 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 2: he's dead to the world. That's interesting that we use 195 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: that language. And even in scripture, sleep and death are 196 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 2: often used as words interchangeably. Jesus will say, arise o 197 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 2: sleeper to Lazarus when he brings him back from the dead. 198 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: So sleep and death have a law in common, and 199 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 2: historically they've been viewed as similar. And then waking up 200 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 2: in the morning is like an image of resurrection. Out 201 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 2: of the death of sleep, we rise to new life. 202 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,439 Speaker 2: And it's something that happens not by your own conscious 203 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: wilful effort. You can't wake yourself up. That's actually a 204 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 2: scientific fact that's really interesting. When you're sleeping, you can't 205 00:12:08,240 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: consciously say I want to wake up now and force 206 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 2: yourself to wake up. It's always an external thing. Now, 207 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 2: you can set an alarm clock, you can ask your 208 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: spouse to wake you up, but that's an external thing 209 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 2: that raises you up out of the death of sleep. 210 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: And I think that right there is kind of the gospel, right, 211 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: like we are all dead in our sin, we can't 212 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 2: do anything to wake us up. To give ourselves a 213 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 2: new life is an external grace that gives us that resurrection. 214 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 2: And the more that science learns about sleep and all 215 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 2: the benefits, like literally the new life that comes every night, 216 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 2: physical restoration, mental cognitive restoration, emotional healing. That's what scientists 217 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 2: think is happening that dreams. It's like the brain kind 218 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 2: of giving itself this bath that like washes away some 219 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 2: of the emotional burdens of the day. Like in all 220 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 2: of these ways, when we go into the death of sleep, 221 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 2: out of that death comes new life. And it's a 222 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: beautiful picture of the resurrection. And again it's grace. It's 223 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 2: something we receive we don't achieve, and that's the gospel, right, 224 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: Like we don't achieve our salvation by checking off all 225 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: these boxes and doing all these things. It's just a 226 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: gift that we either receive or reject. And sleep is 227 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: the same way, Like you can receive all of these benefits, 228 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 2: all these restorative kind of resurrection benefits by just going 229 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: to bed, by just succumbing to sleep and saying like 230 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 2: I can't do anything, I'm just gonna lay down and receive. 231 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 2: And that's how for me, sleep is a nightly refeersal 232 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 2: of the gospel. It's a reminder that all the gifts 233 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 2: I have come from God. They're not something I've achieved. 234 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 2: There's something I've received, and sleep benefits are the same way. 235 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: Okay, that is blowing my mind. 236 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 2: Right, It's crazy. 237 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you know what's really interesting is that we 238 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: think of, like you said, marriage as a gift, children 239 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,200 Speaker 1: as a gift, and also marriage is a picture of 240 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: our relationship with Christ, or parenting as a picture of 241 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: our relationship or that our heavenly Father. And I've never 242 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: thought of sleep as a picture of the Gospel. That's nuts, 243 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: you know what, Brett. More and more I'm realizing the 244 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: longer I walk with God, is that really everything about life, 245 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: everything God created, really points to Him. Like everything, if 246 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: you just take time to look it really all just 247 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: points back to Him. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break. 248 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: I want to ask you about dreams. I want to 249 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: ask you about Sabbath. I have so many questions I 250 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: want to ask you. I can't wait to hear what 251 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:53,520 Speaker 1: you have to say. So we're gonna take a quick 252 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: break and when we come back, we're going to really 253 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: dive into some of this fun stuff. Okay, Brett's so, 254 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: you just gave us a picture that sleep is a 255 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: metaphor for the Gospel. But you mentioned something about dreams, 256 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: so I would be really curious to what you have 257 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: found biblically about dreams. And here's the thing, I don't 258 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: remember a lot of my dreams. My husband remembers, he 259 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: remembers a lot of his dreams, and one of my 260 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: daughters remembers for dreams in detail. So I'm really curious 261 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: to find out what you say about this. 262 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, we could have a whole conversation podcast coversion just 263 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 2: about dreams because there's so much to talk about. I 264 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 2: have two chapters in the book devoted solely to dreams, 265 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: and I could have had eight chapters about dreams because 266 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 2: there's so much there. But the first chapter on dreams 267 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 2: is kind of going over like the science of dreams 268 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 2: and like what the current scientific consensus is about what 269 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 2: dreams are doing for us. And then the second chapter 270 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 2: in my book is on Biblical approaches to dreams and 271 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 2: kind of what Christians have thought about dream dreams, how 272 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 2: the Christian tradition understands dreams. So I'll try to say 273 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: a few things about both of those, and you can 274 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: ask any questions to follow up. But the scientific view 275 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 2: of dreams in very short summary is basically that, like 276 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 2: what's happening in our brains as we dream is kind 277 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:24,760 Speaker 2: of the cognitive organization of all the crazy inputs that 278 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 2: we've experienced during our waking life. Our brains need time 279 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 2: to organize all of that, and sleep is a time 280 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: where the brain can like be single minded in that focus. Right, 281 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 2: there's no other things we're doing while we're sleeping, so 282 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: the brain goes to work organizing like this thing that 283 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 2: we read, this person that we had a conversation with, 284 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 2: this experience, this thing, where do they connect? Where does 285 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: this thing that I experience in my waking life? What 286 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 2: file cabinet should it be put into in my memory? 287 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: So that's why our dreams, as we remember them when 288 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 2: we wake up, sometimes it feels like that was a 289 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: random connection, Like why did that person have a conversation 290 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,719 Speaker 2: with that person from my childhood? Like you know how 291 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 2: dreams just feel so random. Well, there's a reason for that. 292 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 2: It's because our brain is trying to make those connections. 293 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: It's trying to organize the data of what has been 294 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 2: inputed into our cognition but needs a home to be 295 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 2: stored in a certain area. So that's kind of like 296 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:32,920 Speaker 2: the scientific take on dreams, which I think is mind 297 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: blowing in and of itself, Like if that's all there 298 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 2: was to dreams, I would be like, praise God for 299 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 2: how brilliant you are in creating our brains in that way. 300 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: That's amazing. But the second chapter on dreams is about 301 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 2: like where did dreams show up in scripture? And how 302 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 2: do we think about the more supernatural realm of dreams? 303 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: And that is fascinating because if you look at dreams 304 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 2: in scripture, it's clear that that God has a pattern 305 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 2: of speaking to his creation, speaking to humans in dreams. 306 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 2: So dreams as divine communication is a huge thing in scripture, 307 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: and it's actually a thing that still happens today. For example, 308 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 2: if you talk to like a Muslim in like the 309 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 2: Middle East who became a Christian some high percentage, like 310 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 2: fifty percent of all Muslims who convert to Christianity, they 311 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 2: say that it's because of a dream they had, like 312 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 2: Jesus showed up to them in a dream, or they 313 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 2: had a dream about the Bible and a specific Bible verse. 314 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 2: So that's still happening, right. It happened back in you know, 315 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 2: Joseph in Egypt when he was interpreting the dreams. It 316 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: happened when Joseph, Jesus's father had his dream. Like, there's 317 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 2: all these examples of God communicating to people in dreams 318 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 2: for very specific purposes. Sometimes he wants to warn us 319 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 2: about something. Sometimes he wants to convict us, I think 320 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 2: of sin. Sometimes he has a prophetic word for someone else, 321 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: you know. So that's the thing that I think happens. 322 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 2: And you can have a dream and you wake up 323 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: feeling like burdened for some specific person who is in 324 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 2: your dream, and you might like feel like prompted to 325 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 2: call them or check in on them. That's actually happened 326 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 2: with my wife a few times, where she's had a 327 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 2: dream of a very specific nature about a person and 328 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 2: she wakes up feeling like God wants to be to 329 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 2: like reach out to them, and in fact there was 330 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: a reason for that, the timing was divine. So yeah, 331 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 2: I think from a Christian point of view, we have 332 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 2: to go beyond the science of like cognitive repair, and 333 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 2: we have to see that maybe God created the dream 334 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,640 Speaker 2: world as a way where he can communicate to us, 335 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 2: and perhaps in a way that we wouldn't listen, we 336 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 2: wouldn't receive in our more rational waking life, because in 337 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 2: your dream life you're open to like wild ideas and 338 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: unexpected encounters that you wouldn't really give two thoughts to 339 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 2: in your waking life. And I think that that's kind 340 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: of an important thing for our openness to what God 341 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: might want to say to us. So I'll stop there, Donna, 342 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: because I know you probably have lots of questions. 343 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: I do. I have so many questions. Okay, so as 344 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: you're talking, which is fascinating, because dreams are in the Bible, 345 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: like you said, But here's my question. And you may 346 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 1: not even know the answer to this, because you know, 347 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody knows that. But if you 348 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: have a dream, because I've had dreams and I'm like, 349 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: was that the Lord? Or is that just the pizza 350 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: that I ate last night? So how do you discern that? Is? 351 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: Did you learn anything about that? 352 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 2: I mean, I think it's not like an exact science. 353 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: With anything in life, you have to use biblical discernment. 354 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,959 Speaker 2: And I don't think it's wise to like kind of 355 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 2: overinterpret your dreams, like every dream that you have is 356 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: some sort of divine you know, communication from God, I 357 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: think that you can get into a lot of trouble 358 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 2: when you over spiritualize every dream. But the other extreme 359 00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 2: is also problematic, Like if you're totally closed off to it, 360 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: you just declare like God never does this, he doesn't 361 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 2: speak to me in dreams, it's not possible. I think 362 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 2: that that's also a bad approach. So we should be 363 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 2: open to it, but we shouldn't be like so zealous 364 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 2: to read into every dream that we have that it 365 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 2: becomes a little bit reckless. That said, if you have 366 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 2: a dream, especially, I think if you have a dream 367 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: that sticks with you, because we actually forget the vast 368 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: majority of our dreams instantly, Like even the dreams you 369 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: remember when you wake up, most of it is forgotten 370 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 2: within minutes. So that's interesting. Like God created dreams to 371 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 2: be very ephemeral. He created them to be forgotten for 372 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 2: the most part. But sometimes you do remember a dream. 373 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 2: Sometimes there's dreams that stick with you for days or 374 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: weeks or years, And I think those are the ones 375 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 2: that I would pay attention to as maybe this is 376 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 2: something God wants me to remember for some reason. Maybe 377 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 2: he put this dream into my consciousness on that one 378 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,959 Speaker 2: night years ago, for such a time as this, and 379 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: maybe it's something that even years later, the significance of 380 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 2: it only makes sense. Like you might have a dream 381 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 2: that feels like so random, but you can't get it 382 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 2: out of your head and you can't forget it, and 383 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 2: then a couple of years down the road, something happens 384 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 2: and you're like, oh, my goodness, I had a dream 385 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 2: about this three years ago, and maybe now I'm understanding 386 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 2: what it was for I've experienced that. I know people 387 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: who have experienced that. So this sort of thing does happen, 388 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 2: and most people you probably have examples in your own 389 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,439 Speaker 2: life or friends who have had examples where there's just 390 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 2: some sort of uncanny dream connection with real life that 391 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 2: they've had. 392 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: Okay, very very interesting, And obviously, always take things through 393 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: the lens of scripture and what God says, that's how 394 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: he primarily speaks to us. That's something your dream contradicts 395 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: God's word, that's not from the Lord. 396 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: Then it's not from God, right. 397 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly, So okay, but you also tie this 398 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: whole idea of sleep into Sabbath. And see that's another 399 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: thing that we don't really talk about in our hustle culture. 400 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: So talk to us a little bit about well, first 401 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: of all, tell us what Sabbath is and how sleep 402 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: relates to Sabbath. 403 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, so Sabbath is just another expression I think of 404 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 2: God's value of his creature's resting. So God rested on 405 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 2: the seventh day of creation. He worked for six days, 406 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 2: and then on the seventh day God rested and enjoyed. 407 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 2: He saw that what he had created was good. And 408 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 2: then he commands his people, you know in Sidis in 409 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 2: the scripture, to honor the Sabbath and keep it holy. 410 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: So he wants us to follow his example, which he 411 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 2: himself did, of six days work, one day rest. And 412 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 2: so in that Protestance today, you know, we carry forward 413 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 2: the Sabbath. We call it the Lord's Day. That's where 414 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 2: we go to church on Sundays. Jewish people still practice 415 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 2: Sabbath Saturday Friday night to Saturday night, and that's how 416 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 2: it would have been practiced in Jesus' day. But I 417 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 2: think the main idea is just having the ability to 418 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: kind of not work for one day a week. So 419 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 2: whether you do it on Saturday or Sunday or some 420 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 2: other day of your week, it's important for us from 421 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 2: God's point of view, it's important for us to not 422 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 2: overestimate the need for us to always be producing, to 423 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: always be working. And I think it's kind of related 424 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 2: to the reason why I think He created us to 425 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 2: have to sleep a third of our lives is because 426 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 2: it keeps us in check, It keeps our pride in check. 427 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 2: It reminds us every night that it's okay to stop. 428 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,200 Speaker 2: It's okay there are to do. List never ends, there's 429 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: always more than we could do. But it's okay to 430 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 2: like prioritize rest and to rest in the sovereignty of God, 431 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 2: to rest in his provision, and not to feel like 432 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 2: it's all on me. I have to provide everything for myself. 433 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 2: I have to provide everything for my family. You know, 434 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 2: the reason why I think a lot of us don't 435 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 2: prioritize Sabbath and don't prioritize sleep, if we're honest with ourselves, 436 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,479 Speaker 2: is because we just overestimate the importance of what we offer, 437 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,679 Speaker 2: whether what we offer our family, our workplace. Sometimes we 438 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 2: feel like I can't stop, I can't take saba because 439 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 2: my job needs me to be always doing this and producing. 440 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: I think all of that is really just it comes 441 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: from our human pride, which is the original sin, right, 442 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 2: It's the original temptation to feel like we can't have 443 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 2: limits placed around us. Adam and Eve didn't want to 444 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 2: have limits. They didn't want to be less than God. 445 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: They wanted to be on his level. And I think 446 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 2: that that's kind of what leads us to reject Sabbath 447 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,119 Speaker 2: and to reject sleep. Is that same tendency to feel like, no, 448 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 2: we can be like God, we can always be on 449 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: we can be infinite in our productivity, infinite in our 450 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 2: to do's. We can't be. And by God's gracious design, 451 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 2: he wanted us to be limited beings, to have to sleep, 452 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,160 Speaker 2: to have to stop, to have to rest, and that's 453 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 2: a gift that we should receive with gratitude. 454 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: And as you're even talking about this, to me, it's 455 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: like God saying, Hey, I'm in control. This is a gift. 456 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 1: I'm the one that's in control. So you can go 457 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: to sleep because you don't spend the world into orbit. 458 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 1: I do. So as you're talking, I really am getting 459 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: this conviction, really that sleep is a spiritual thing. It's 460 00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,119 Speaker 1: not just a biological thing. I mean, I know that, 461 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: but so because it's a spiritual issue, like you know, 462 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: Sabbath and rest and the idea of God's sovereignty versus 463 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: is me trying to be in control, and the picture 464 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: of the Gospel and all of that. But what about 465 00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:10,720 Speaker 1: those people they're listening that are thinking, yes, but I 466 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 1: can't sleep, I wake up in the middle of the night, 467 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: or I do have young kids. Talk to that person 468 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: that struggles with sleep. 469 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 2: First, I would just say, like, you are not alone, 470 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,719 Speaker 2: Like this is a struggle that all of us, at 471 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: various stages struggle with to various degrees. It's a product 472 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 2: of the fall in how God's good gifts are rarely 473 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 2: experienced in their perfect state right. They're always tarnished and 474 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 2: kind of colored a little bit. But one of the 475 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 2: things that I would say is use the imperfect, kind 476 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 2: of disrupted nature of sleep as a reminder that there 477 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: is a perfect sleep, there is a perfect breast to come. 478 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: So I think there's a way in which sleep points 479 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 2: to the future hope that we have in Christ. It's 480 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 2: kind of an eschatological that's a big word, but it's 481 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: a signpost both backwards to the Gospel, as we've been 482 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 2: talking about, but it's also a sign of the future 483 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 2: reality to come. We're living in the not yet, we're 484 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 2: living in the time between Christ's two comings, and things 485 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: aren't perfect now and God's good gifts are not perfect. 486 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 2: But I think the imperfection of sleep and rest can 487 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 2: be a spiritually rich thing if it points us and 488 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: kind of heightens our longing for that perfect rest that 489 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 2: we will have in God's presence one day. Now. I 490 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 2: know that's like not the greatest consolation if you're just 491 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 2: exhausted and not having great sleep now, but I think 492 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 2: it can help to just see just like suffering in general, right, 493 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,239 Speaker 2: like the Apostle Paul talks a lot about how, like 494 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:53,959 Speaker 2: you know, his present sufferings compared to the eternal glory 495 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: to come are just a trifling thing. Sometimes our suffering 496 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 2: and our struggles in life are actually a gift because 497 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 2: they reorient our lives towards that future hope that we have, 498 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 2: and they help us to not get too attached to 499 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 2: the gifts of life and to idolize them in a way. 500 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 2: So that's one thing I would say, But also just 501 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: on a practical level, if you're struggling to sleep, see 502 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 2: a doctor, Like their sleep disorders have treatments, a lot 503 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 2: of them, like there's really good medication, there's really good 504 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: advice and practices that doctors who specialize in sleep disorders 505 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 2: can help you with. So if you are struggling with 506 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 2: some sort of sleep malady, get help, you know, seek help, 507 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 2: because modern science is amazing and can help you. You 508 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 2: still might not find that perfect night's sleep. It might 509 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: still be elusive, but as I've been saying, the elusive 510 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: nature of perfect sleep I think reminds us that like 511 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 2: the perfect in all things, sleep and every everything else 512 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 2: is still to come. 513 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: Right. 514 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,040 Speaker 2: It's not now, It's still to come. 515 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. So good, Such an interesting conversation. I mean, wow, 516 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: just something I really have never thought about. I think 517 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: you really opened up our eyes. So Brett, tell our 518 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: listening friends where they can get a copy of your 519 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: book and how to connect with you if they'd like 520 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: to do that. 521 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks. It is such a fun, big topic with 522 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 2: so many different like avenues to go down, so we'd 523 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 2: probably talk for a lot longer. But yeah, the book 524 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 2: is out in stores on Amazon, Barnes, and Noble anywhere 525 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: you would find any book. You can pick up a copy, 526 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 2: and then you can follow me and learn about my 527 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 2: other books and my day to day writing for the 528 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: Gospel Coalition By going to Brett McCracken dot com or 529 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: following me on Instagram or social media. 530 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: Great well, we will put all of your information in 531 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: our show notes. So Brett, thank you so much for 532 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:58,080 Speaker 1: being on the podcast and for your important work with 533 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: the Gospel Coalition and for this insightful book. It has 534 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: been just a pleasure to have you on the show. 535 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 2: Yes, how's been. Thank you so much, Donna, I appreciate it. 536 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: Well, wasn't that an interesting discussion. I hope you learned 537 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: a thing or two. I know I sure did. And 538 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: as a reminder, I would love to connect with you 539 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: on social media. On Instagram, you'll find me at Donna A. 540 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: Jones on Facebook, I'm at Donna Jones, speaker and author, 541 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: and I would love for you to head to my 542 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: website Donna Jones dot org. You can sign up for 543 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: my free newsletter, find out all about my speaking events somewhere. 544 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: Be this all. I'd love to see you at ONEB 545 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: events or come to your church or speak for your organization. 546 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: Check that out at Donna Jones dot org and don't 547 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,800 Speaker 1: forget to hit subscribe. You don't want to miss a 548 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: single episode. I have some amazing things in store for you, 549 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: my friend, and as always, I can't wait to see 550 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: you next time, for that's just what I needed.