1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast. 4 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: Thinking Christian highlights the ways God is working in the 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: world and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions 7 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: that hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now onto 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey everyone, welcome to this 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian on Doctor James Spencer. I'm joined 10 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 1: by doctor Ashish Pharma, and today we're going to be discussing, 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: you know, continue our discussion of Biblical masculinity, and I 12 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: want to address some work by somebody that I would 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: consider to be a fairly influential evangelical who's written on manhood. Now, 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who I could have chosen. 15 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 1: I will say I ran across this work not because 16 00:00:57,480 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: I read this individual frequently, but because I was referred 17 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: to it by someone else. They were asking me some questions, 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: and so I really got into this topic in part 19 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: because people were asking me questions about it. So what 20 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:13,759 Speaker 1: I want to do is read part of this book. 21 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 1: It's called Act Like a Man, Nine Ways to Punch 22 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: Life in the Mouth. That's the title by Rob Driscoll. 23 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: And so this Mark Mark, Yeah, not Rob Mark, Mark Driskoll. 24 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: That tells you how much I read him. My apologies. 25 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: Part of the reason for reading this is not to 26 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: detegrate Driscoll, right, it's not the point. The point is 27 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: that this is an influential pastor who is I will 28 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: trust to trying to do something that is constructive and 29 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: helpful for his congregation, and in writing this book, I 30 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 1: feel like has made a real deep mistake in the 31 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: way he frames masculinity. And so I do not like 32 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: his content. I would not enjoy it, endorse his content, 33 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: but I don't really know him well enough one way 34 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: or the other to say that. You know, I don't 35 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: want it to come off as a ad hominem attack. 36 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: So what we're going to do here is we're going 37 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: to read through this passage that he includes. This is 38 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: on the feminization of the church. It's it's his historical 39 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: take of why the church has become more feminine. And 40 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: I don't agree with the history of this. I think 41 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: there's good reasons not to agree with the history of this. 42 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 1: We'll get into that a little bit, and then I 43 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: think just the way this whole narrative is framed, it 44 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: sets up a very stereotypical notion of masculinity that then 45 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: we'll go ahead and talk through for the rest of 46 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: the episode. So I'm going to start by reading a 47 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: rather long section out of this book and then we'll 48 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: discuss So here goes. I'll be looking away with this, yeah, 49 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: Gregor t I'll be looking away from the camera for 50 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: those of you who are watching the video because the 51 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 1: book is over here, But just ignore that part and 52 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 1: listen to what's going on here. So this is quote 53 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 1: from Driscoll's book Act Like a Man. Historically, what has 54 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: happened in our nation has also affected the church in 55 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 1: many generations. Like during World War two, young men left 56 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 1: the country to go to war. They were almost thirteen 57 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: million active duty military, which was around nine percent of 58 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: the whole population going to war. War took the young 59 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: men out of the country and placed them under strong 60 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: male leadership with brotherhood. Who had a battle. Meanwhile, back 61 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: at home, who's left in the church? Women and children? 62 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: We love women and children, and they also need to 63 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: be in church. But the church no longer has strong 64 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: young men, so then the women in the church decide 65 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: they're going to run the church. All of a sudden, 66 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,680 Speaker 1: church starts to look like women decorated it. As an aside, 67 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: whoever decided mauv was the official color of Christian decor, 68 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: We forgive you hard since there Since there are a 69 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: few men in church during war, all the programming is 70 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: for the women and children, so they hire an older 71 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: guy who isn't off at war to be a pastor. 72 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: He's retired and he's kind of like a really kind 73 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:18,840 Speaker 1: hearted grandpa who's going to love women and children. Next, 74 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: they need to find a guy who will lead worship. 75 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: This is where things get offensive. All the strong men 76 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: are off at war, so they find a really nice 77 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: guy who can lead worship. The least masculine guy is 78 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: leading worship. I'm not criticizing, I'm just observing. In the 79 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: Old Testament, the worship leader is a guy named David, 80 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: a shepherd, which in those days was actually more like 81 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: a cowboy with a gun than your typical mental picture 82 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: of a docile man in a tunic. This guy isn't 83 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 1: like David, so we have a nice Old pastor who's 84 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: a grandpa and his confused grandson leading worship, and they 85 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: emotionally connect with the women and children. Then the men 86 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: return from war and they show up in church. They think, 87 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: I'm not going to listen to that old man. I 88 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: can't relate to him, and I can't sing like that guy. 89 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: I can't get in that octave unless I have an injury. 90 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: I would need not wear a cup to hockey night 91 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: and then I could sing like that guy. The men 92 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: walk into what feels like a feminine environment. It sounds 93 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: like a feminine environment, and it seems like it's for 94 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: women and children. The men of the church left and 95 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: never came back. End quote. So that's what Driscoll writes 96 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: about the feminization of the church. It's hard to know 97 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: exactly where to start with us, but I'll go with 98 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: a couple of the obvious points. Number One, it seems 99 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 1: like from the statistics when people came back from World 100 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: War Two that seminary enrollment actually went up, that you 101 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: had a lot of soldiers who were coming back and 102 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: going to seminary in order to go back into the churches. 103 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: So I think that is narrative here of the men 104 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: left the church and never came back isn't quite right. 105 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: I think you had a lot of young men come 106 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,279 Speaker 1: back go to seminary with the intention at least going 107 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 1: back into the church. So I would say from that aspect, 108 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: his narrative is a bit off. I would also question 109 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: his note on all the programming became about women and children. 110 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: This is not the era of the megachurch in World 111 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: War Two. These are denominational churches by and large. At 112 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: this time. You're talking about Presbyterian, Lutheran, even the Baptist 113 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: churches are going to have a relatively rigid, durable structure 114 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: to them. This is not like a megachurch or a 115 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: seeker sensitive church that you can shift because the audience changes. 116 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 1: You know, Lutheran Church. I can go back to the 117 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: Lutheran Church today and it's the same Lutheran church I 118 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: went to as a kid. It hasn't gotten more masculine, 119 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 1: it hasn't gotten more feminine. It's the same exact church 120 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: I went to. And so when I'm saying those durable rituals, 121 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: I think he's overplaying his hand with that, just from 122 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: a historical perspective. And then the last thing I'll note 123 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: is just the reference to David as a worship leader. Yeah, 124 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: I'm not sure about that, not sure that I'm even 125 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: comfortable with the analogy of having an Old Testament worship 126 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 1: leader and especially identifying that person with the King. Now, 127 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: there isn't a clean differentiation between the cult in the 128 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: Temple and the Old Testament, but I mean, arguably the 129 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: priest would be the more logical person to say is 130 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: the quote unquote worship leader in the Temple. Even then 131 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: I'm not really sure I would. So those are just 132 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: three points from this that I would throw out there 133 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: just to kind of show, like, I think he's making 134 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 1: moves intellectually that are probably not quite right, and so 135 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: this entire narrative to me doesn't really read as a 136 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: historical narrative. It reads as historical fire that is made 137 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: up in order to reinforce the point that he's trying 138 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: to make, which is the Church doesn't feel comfortable to 139 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: manly men, and manly men need to take it back. 140 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. I have a few thoughts on this. Thanks for 141 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 2: that overview. That there's some I didn't know that about 142 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 2: seminary enrollment in post World War two, So that's that's 143 00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: quite the splinter for him. To have to dig out 144 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 2: just the idea of taking for granted what the manly 145 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 2: man is. Philosophers would say, that's begging the question. I 146 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: think we've we've done pretty well in the last couple 147 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 2: of episodes of methodologically getting to the root of the 148 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: problem with those sorts of claims, so I'll leave that 149 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:56,839 Speaker 2: one alone. I find it interesting the way though, that 150 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:08,320 Speaker 2: he seems to identify maturity with physical traits. Researchers have 151 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: shown that roughly speaking, men reach their athletic primes in 152 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: that twenty five to twenty eight range that generally overlaps 153 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 2: with what we see in professional sports, for instance, where 154 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 2: people reach the height of their physical abilities during those times, 155 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,959 Speaker 2: at least in male professional sports. A women's athletic prime 156 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: I read was a little bit younger, early twenties, and 157 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 2: then after you get to probably around thirty, you start 158 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: to see the people that endure that stay around. They've 159 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 2: adapted their games. So right post thirty, Michael Jordan, everyone 160 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: could see couldn't jump as well as he could, but 161 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 2: he perfected the post game, right. I think we've seen 162 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: similar sorts of things with Lebron James, where the longevity 163 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 2: of his career is because of the little things that 164 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 2: he didn't do when he was younger that he's profect did. 165 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: And you can see this in various sports. Tom Brady, 166 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 2: he wasn't great into his forties because he was every 167 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: bit as good athletically. He did something right, He adjusted 168 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,920 Speaker 2: dietary needs, he got really flexible. He was smart in 169 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 2: the way that he took contact from the pocket those 170 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 2: sorts of corus. Anyway, I don't know of any other 171 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 2: walk of life than that sort of for lack of 172 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:31,559 Speaker 2: a better term, Muchi's moode that would look at that 173 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: sort of prime athletic pocket of twenty five to twenty 174 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 2: eight and maybe up to thirty and called that the 175 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: peak version. Right, Even in athletic events, very few people 176 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 2: think that athletically prime Michael Jordan was the best version. 177 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: Of Michael Jordan, that's right. 178 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 2: You know most of his championships came actually after that. 179 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,079 Speaker 1: That right. 180 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: So it's an odd sort of claim. Biblically, it's even 181 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 2: more odd when I think of, for instance, proverbs. Right, 182 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 2: you get these lines about that silver crown upon the 183 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: man's head as the marker of wisdom. Yes, it's referring 184 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 2: to gray hair and gray hair doesn't happen to the young. 185 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: It happens to the old. Now, it doesn't mean that 186 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: everyone who's gray in the head is wise, but the 187 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 2: idea of play there is that wisdom is developed as 188 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: a sign of true maturity. Yes, well, that that inherently 189 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 2: coincides with the loss of muscle mass, right right, the 190 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:38,559 Speaker 2: loss of those quick twitch muscle abilities, the need to 191 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 2: stretch more so you don't strain that calf or whatever. Right, 192 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: So on that most basic level, that's interesting. Historically, it's 193 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 2: also really odd because what you see there is of 194 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 2: movement to a kind of ideal that, for both Christian 195 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 2: and non Christian historically doesn't exist. 196 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 197 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 2: I mean you think about Aristotle, who's writing around the 198 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 2: mid three hundred's BC, becomes particularly influential in his work 199 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: during the Middle Ages in the Western world, But he 200 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 2: describes the virtuous person. For him, it's the man, right, 201 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of criticism to give 202 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 2: to Aristotle right there, but what we can hold that 203 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: off to the side. For him, the woman is inherently 204 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 2: not virtuous because she's too easily led by her passions. 205 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,559 Speaker 2: I'll leave it at just false. But his instructive point 206 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 2: is that for him there's a balance, and so while 207 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: he's not willing to understand women as potentially virtuous, that's 208 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 2: on the negative side. A positive dome from Aristotle was 209 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: that he also was not willing to accept the machismo 210 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 2: as virtuous. He saw it as frankly meat headed. He 211 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: saw it as too instinctual, not deliberative enough, not able 212 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 2: to wrestle with nuance, not able to think through what's 213 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 2: good for society at large. Right, thanks too much in 214 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: terms of hormonal imbalances, hormonal desires, thanks too much of 215 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 2: the self. And so for him, the balance was someone 216 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 2: who was thoughtful, was someone who was in tuned with 217 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 2: a larger society. For him, it was the polus level 218 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: the city. It was someone who had friends and was 219 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: able to relate to those friends as peers, not as 220 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 2: someone who owed those friends things, and nor someone who 221 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: depended upon those friends in order to make ends meet. Right, 222 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:56,760 Speaker 2: It was a peer level sort of thing. And I 223 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: think on the positive evaluation, if we get rid of 224 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: sort of the genderation of what Aristotle was doing, there 225 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 2: was a recognition, even by the Church when he became influential, 226 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: that there was something important to the balance here. Now, 227 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 2: the Church at times fell into deep problems with embracing 228 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 2: the genderization, and at times, when I think here, of 229 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 2: the Cappadocian fathers challenged it. Basil the Great, for instance, 230 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 2: one of the great Cappadocian fathers, referred to his sister 231 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: Macrina the elder as the truly smart one of the family, 232 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,440 Speaker 2: referred to as the truth theologian as a family, and 233 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 2: depicted her as the virtuous one in the family. Right, 234 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: So there's a challenge to that notion, though not often 235 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: enough in the broader context. But the instructive point here 236 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 2: is that over time, this thing that, whether Christian theologian 237 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 2: or Greek philosopher, there was a general understanding that the 238 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: machismo effect that comes with all the superior physical abilities 239 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 2: of one's athletic prime where the farthest thing from the 240 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: actual maturity that goes into wisdom, and the actual maturity 241 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 2: that goes into the too, what we would think of 242 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 2: as excellence or virtue. Yeah, and yet we live in 243 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: a time and maybe we can ask the question at 244 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 2: some point of chicken or the egg. I'm not entirely sure, 245 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,479 Speaker 2: but we live in a time in which the genderization 246 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: still exists, but we've we've chopped off the crown of 247 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: silver hair, and what we've made instead is that machismo 248 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 2: as the image of valor. Right, we see that, we 249 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: see that in our popular depictions. Right, the superhero crises, 250 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 2: as I like to call them, they're all they're all 251 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 2: meaty figures not necessarily known as wise figures. Open up 252 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 2: DC comics and Batman, Superman, even one woman. Just these 253 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 2: incredibly ripped and toned muscles. Incredible, Right, I don't know 254 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 2: anyone in real life who has those other than prime 255 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: David Robinson. But that's another conversation. And here we have 256 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 2: Driscoll elevating that over a sort of thoughtfulness. And I 257 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: don't want to devolve us into a place in which 258 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 2: we think well to be intellectually or bookishly smart is 259 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: therefore to be wise. No, we couldn't be farther from 260 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: the truth there either, Right. But it's the ability, the 261 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 2: maturity to be able to reflect upon these things that 262 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 2: scripture itself, Right, the crown of silver hair points to 263 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 2: as something that we ought to pay attention to. But 264 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 2: not only does do we have in that passage that 265 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 2: you read a denigration of sorry an uplifting of the 266 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 2: physical prime as the state of maturity and the true manliness. 267 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 2: We also have the denigration of elderly, specifically, no one 268 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: wants to listen to their grandfather? 269 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: Are you kidding me exactly? 270 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I'll pause there thoughts. 271 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: No, I mean, I agree, I mean, I think you 272 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: there's so many layers to this. I think what you're 273 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: saying about, you know, this sort of idea of macheese 274 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: mo here and the contrast of them to the elderly 275 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: grandfather who's in this story. The funny part is that 276 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: the guys who come back with macheesmo, who are in 277 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: their physical prime, what do they do well? When they 278 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: can't play a game that they like? They take their 279 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: ball and go home. I think the story ends with 280 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: these petulant children who can't stand to be in a 281 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: maw of church moving on. And you sit back and 282 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,080 Speaker 1: you say, how is that a picture of manhood? 283 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 2: Like? 284 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:53,719 Speaker 1: In what world do you walk into a church and say, 285 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: my wife and children are really being fed here? Right, 286 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: let's just say that that's what happened, and my wife 287 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,119 Speaker 1: and children are really being fed here. But because I 288 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 1: don't relate, I'm now going to stop my feet and leave. 289 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: That is not my picture of it doesn't It doesn't 290 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: even fit with my picture of like a cultural picture 291 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: of masculinity. Nor does it fit with what we talked 292 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: about at the end of the episode last time, which 293 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 1: was this imitation of Christ, the paradigm that Christ sets forth. 294 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: Why is it that a man who's coming back from war, 295 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,239 Speaker 1: who is supposedly supposed to be like the leader and 296 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: the guy, why can't he sit in that discomfort and 297 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: enjoy watching his wife and child be fed. Why is 298 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: it that self sacrifice is not part of what these 299 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: men who self sacrificed in war. Why is it that 300 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 1: they won't do that for the church. It's such a 301 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: strange way of crafting this narrative that these strong men 302 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: coming back from the war are just unwilling to sit, 303 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: like I said, in the mauve walls of a church, 304 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: like who cares what color churches? Right? Like the dumbest 305 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 1: possible thing to be frustrated about, you know, Like the 306 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:11,440 Speaker 1: whole narrative. It takes everything that you would want to 307 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:17,240 Speaker 1: see biblically, elevation of the elders, right Karen, protection of 308 00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: women and children, right, brotherhood that recognizes the gifts of 309 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 1: everyone in the church, as opposed to claiming the least 310 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,360 Speaker 1: masculine guys up there singing falsetto right. It takes all 311 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,719 Speaker 1: that throws it out and says the church you returned 312 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: to the men who went off for more. Yeah, the 313 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: ones who left, the ones who decided they couldn't stand 314 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: being in this uncomfortable situation, that's who we should give 315 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:49,119 Speaker 1: the church back to. I'm really uncomfortable with that. I 316 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 1: don't want to give it back to them. 317 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,199 Speaker 2: Yeah. Great, great point. And that's that's taken for granted. 318 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 2: That he's right that they left. 319 00:19:57,480 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 1: Right. 320 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 2: It seems to me that if if you had record 321 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: high levels of enrollment at seminars at that point, it 322 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 2: sounds like that tales already false. 323 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: Right. Like I said, I think his narrative is completely 324 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: historically inaccurate. But if you look just within the narrative, 325 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: even the characters he creates within his narrative, these are 326 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: not the guys you want to turn the keys of 327 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:18,199 Speaker 1: the church over to. 328 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: Not at all. They're not praiseworthy. They're not people that 329 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: you want to imitate. It's sort of like they're the 330 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,159 Speaker 2: If we want to accept that image of the modern 331 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: superhero and his physique, to to have the one as 332 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 2: the prime, the one to look up to. We're not 333 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 2: even talking about the superheroes. We're talking about the ones 334 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 2: who didn't make it into Avengers Tower or the Justice Hall, 335 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: the halls of Justice, right right, the ones who are 336 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:50,920 Speaker 2: on the outside looking longingly and maybe bitterly. That's sort 337 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:53,880 Speaker 2: of the image that he's given us. Can I say too, 338 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 2: as a side note, I have no idea what MOV is, 339 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 2: and I'm okay with not knowing, because I think that's 340 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 2: so beside the point that, yes, just move along, Driscold. 341 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to take it what came to my mind 342 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,800 Speaker 1: because I had to look this up, right, because again, 343 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: I grew up Lutheran Church. There are times when the 344 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: Lutheran Church is adorned with purple. Now, purple is not, usually, 345 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: like in our day and age, a manly color. Right 346 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: back in the day, purple clothes would have been worn 347 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 1: by the rich. It would have been assigned especially royal, right, 348 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: especially royal. But nowadays, like there are certain colors that 349 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: are culturally associated with masculine and feminine, but purple would 350 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 1: be more on the feminine side. And so you sit back, 351 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: and it's like, well, the Lutheran Church has been doing 352 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: that for as far as I could tell, ever, right, 353 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I think there is times when they have pink, right, 354 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 1: And so you just sit back and you're like this 355 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: whole color thing that he throws in. There is this 356 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 1: little chuckling aside. It's a jab, right, and I know 357 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: he's trying to be funny, but it's also just sort 358 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: of unnecessary, and it drives home a point that I 359 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: think he is actually trying to make, which I just 360 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 1: sit back and I say, this may be the worst 361 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: point ever. I'll I'll throw this in, let me, let 362 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: me add this little I'll read another passage from him, 363 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: and we can kind of get this response. But overall, 364 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: what I would say is this historical narrative is not historical. 365 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 1: I think it's a fiction designed to fit what he's arguing. 366 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: He's retrofitting history in order to fit his scenario that 367 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: he wants to advance in the present. But after this passage, 368 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: directly after this passage, so the men are uncomfortable in 369 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: this feminized environment, and he writes this quote true or false? 370 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: Can women feel comfortable in a masculine environment if it's 371 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: not angry or aggressive? True? Can you take your girlfriend 372 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: to a sports bar? Yes? Comfortable, healthy heterosexual, normal men 373 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: feel comfortable in a profoundly feminine environment. No. I've never 374 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: seen a healthy guy ask his gal. Can I go 375 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: to the nail salon with you? If you're that guy, 376 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: you need to know, with the full love of Jesus, 377 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,119 Speaker 1: you're a weirdo. 378 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 2: Philosopher me wants to pipe in again and say you've 379 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 2: begged the question of what a healthy guy is right 380 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 2: when I put again and we won't go down that route. 381 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 1: I have been to the nail salon with my daughters. 382 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: I feel perfectly fine there. Do I get my nails done? No, 383 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 1: But that's more just me, not like I think it's 384 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: unmanly to get my nails done. I'm perfectly comfortable in 385 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: the nail bar with the girls. 386 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. 387 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: I don't feel like I'm a weirdo. 388 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 2: It's an odd thing to refer to the painting of 389 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 2: nails or the colors of walls. We're talking about wavelengths 390 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 2: of light. Right, It's an odd thing to refer to 391 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: those things as inherently or female in way, in terms 392 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 2: that are anything other than cultural. Right. You mentioned the 393 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: Lutheran Church in purple. My mind went to if you 394 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 2: go to the Vatican Museum, you can't miss it. As 395 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 2: you're walking through the halls of the Vatican Museum, this 396 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 2: gigantic bathtub functionally from the ancient Roman Empire, and it's purple. 397 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: It is unmistakingly purple. And you know what, we know 398 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 2: that it was an emperor's because it was purple, because 399 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:32,879 Speaker 2: it was the color. So that's why I got the 400 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 2: idea of royal right there, right, And I wonder if 401 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 2: the Lutheran Church is some sort of genealogy from that. 402 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: But we know that it was an emperor. You know, 403 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: I can only imagine fill in, fill in the blank, 404 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: whichever emperor was Diocletian. Diocletian refused to take a bath 405 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 2: in that gigantic imperial tub because it was purple. Come on, 406 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 2: give me a break, right. The idea that waveplanks are 407 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 2: white are gendered, right, right, And the same thing goes 408 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 2: for the painting of nails, like yeah, okay again, that 409 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 2: screams cultural stereotype more than it does something inherently true 410 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: of a different wavelength of light bouncing off of someone's 411 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 2: fingernails than mine. 412 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 1: When I think it goes a lot of what he 413 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 1: talks about in this whole section that I've read. He's 414 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 1: also doing what we were suggesting in those first couple episodes. 415 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: You're taking something that's second order. What does it mean 416 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 1: to be feminine? What does it mean to be masculine? Well, 417 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:40,440 Speaker 1: we don't really exactly know, like it's never told to us. 418 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: We're just supposed to know in and of itself, right, 419 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: And so that makes then mauve feminine, nail salon's feminine, 420 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 1: but sports bars masculine. And then there's some correlator that 421 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: we're supposed to make to the church that the church 422 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 1: has become feminized, right, But the only thing we're really 423 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,639 Speaker 1: given are there's an old pastor, there's a guy who 424 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: sings too high, and in the walls are the wrong color. 425 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,680 Speaker 1: Like to me, what he's doing is begging a second 426 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: order question back into a you know, a first order problem. 427 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: And the way he wants to fix that, it seems, 428 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 1: is to make the church more comfortable for men and 429 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: then let the women and children just be in it, 430 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: because they will, but we won't, right. 431 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 2: Well to that point, not just even men for particular men. 432 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 1: Right, right, Yeah, Because evidently the least masculine guy is 433 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: not going to be fully comfortable in the new Church. 434 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 2: Absolutely not right. And the reality is that to say 435 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 2: this is what a man is, what would you have 436 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 2: to do? Well, we'll give it a voice range. Look, 437 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 2: the voice range between me and you is already arrange, right, 438 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 2: And we're just two people body type. All right, you've 439 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 2: got the muscles, but I play basketball. Does that count? 440 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 2: You know? But then you've got other people who couldn't 441 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 2: care less about the muscles or the basketball. Who's to 442 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 2: say that that's less man? So in effect, what he's 443 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 2: done here, deeply ironic, is what he said is we've 444 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: got this group of people, and we'll call them men, 445 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 2: as if only men have these interests. Right, we have, 446 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 2: by the way, the WNBA, and we have the whole 447 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,439 Speaker 2: women's side of the aisle of the Winter Olympics or 448 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 2: the Summer Olympics or something like that. Right, right, last 449 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 2: I checked, there's women doing that. Your own daughters are 450 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 2: volleyball players, right. 451 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: Not anymore if they do gymnastics and lacrosse, and so 452 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: it's like, got it, my daughter can do a lot. 453 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 2: Deeply, Yeah, yeah, there you go. I have four kids 454 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: and the one who's probably going to end up being 455 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 2: the most accomplished athletically is one of my daughters. Yeah, 456 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 2: it just is, what like, there's nothing to say about 457 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,120 Speaker 2: that other than it's an observation of a statement of fact. 458 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: But the moment you create the sort of dynay decrease. 459 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 2: So we've taken this collection of people, but we've identified 460 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 2: it as distinctly male. Not only have we done something 461 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 2: to those women who have similar interests, we've also done 462 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 2: something to those men who don't have that interest. So 463 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 2: that we've now said and we kind of do this. 464 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: Unfortunately culturally, well, those women are tomboys whatever that means, right, 465 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 2: and those men are something less than men. And there's 466 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 2: countless stories of I'll use the word violence. Violence has 467 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: been done to them. And unfortunately, when you do that 468 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 2: in the name of Christianity, the Church and especially Jesus, 469 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 2: begin to put at the feet of Jesus a particular 470 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 2: notion of gender, or particular notion of realized mature masculinity 471 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:14,720 Speaker 2: that frankly, no one can ultimately live into, right, even 472 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 2: even the person who is that otherwise image of deep voice, muscular, 473 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 2: athletic interested in quote male things that goes away. Right 474 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: as the testosterone decreases. When you grow older, your muscles 475 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: start to atrophy, your fast twitch goes away, your voice lowers, 476 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 2: your your ability to move quickly and with strength, just 477 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 2: like it goes away. You've ultimately put everyone into a 478 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 2: bucket of at some point, some more than others, of 479 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 2: being unable to be male. Yeah, and to me, that 480 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 2: signals a poor understanding, as we've said before, of being 481 00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: human first and foremost, poor understanding of what maturity means. Yeah, 482 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 2: if your designation of maturity is a very narrow window 483 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 2: that only belongs to some, and you're not making some 484 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 2: sort of ethical claim about that, right, Like, it's one 485 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 2: thing to say, yeah, few people truly are mature because 486 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 2: very few people ultimately care to be ethical beings. That's 487 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 2: a very different conversation than a few people are ultimately 488 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: mature because they just don't have that athletic skill set. 489 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 2: For instance. Yeah, you'd you've created a problem and never 490 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 2: mind Again, as we talked about in previous episodes, none 491 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 2: of that even makes sense of the person of Jesus. 492 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: That's right, And I mean I think this is when 493 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: I first read riscal and there are other passages in 494 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: the book that I find just way off base. Things 495 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: like Paul wasn't married because he died too early biblically undefensible, 496 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: like you, there's no shot. You're demonstrating that typically based 497 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: on what's it's not yet Paul wasn't like, oh, I 498 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: think I'm gonna die early, so I'm not gonna get married. 499 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: He never says that it's not even close to what 500 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: he's thinking, Like. 501 00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 2: Right, he says they're easier to do the ministry that 502 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,040 Speaker 2: he's doing. 503 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,040 Speaker 1: Without all as a non. 504 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: Married person, which seems to be his way of saying, 505 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: that's why I'm not getting married, you know. 506 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: So, I mean, I think there are a lot of 507 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: pieces in this book that do that they're applying and 508 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 1: this is where I think this was my initial sort 509 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: of touch point with this whole conversation. And like I said, 510 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: there are others who write on this. This isn't just 511 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: about Driscoll. It just happens to be the first place 512 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: that I encountered this, that this was so far off 513 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: that it's reading a cultural script of masculinity back on 514 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 1: not only to Christian men, but on occasion, back onto 515 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: the Bible. Right, I mean goes the one in the 516 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: previous episode I've mentioned you know, Jesus wept, but he 517 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: wept like a man. This is where that comes from. 518 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: And so you're seeing all of these different sort of 519 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,480 Speaker 1: like he just takes this this map and he slaps 520 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: it on top of the Bible and says, there, this 521 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: is what it is. There are so many things wrong 522 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: with it, this method that he's using. I actually don't 523 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: disagree with his aims, right. I think we do need 524 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: young men to grow up into strong, mature Christian men. 525 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:37,440 Speaker 1: I fundamentally disagree with his means. Like the approach he's 526 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 1: taking to do that, I think is absolutely wrong. I 527 00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: think what it's going to produce is the petulant children 528 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: of his story who decide that they can't live within 529 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: a femininized church and they're they're going to be oozing 530 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 1: machismo and full of bravado and you know, just ridiculousness. 531 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: And so I think there's an aspect of this that 532 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 1: his work really is the thing that started me down 533 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: this path. And what I see is he's not talking 534 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: about creating male disciples of Jesus Christ. What he's talking 535 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: about is crafting culturally relevant masculine people and A big 536 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,480 Speaker 1: part of his problem, in my estimation is I listen 537 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: to some of his videos online as well. I have 538 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: a deeper voice than he does. I'm going to go 539 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: ahead and bet that I can bench more than he does. 540 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 1: So does that make him less of a man than 541 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 1: I am? 542 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 2: I guess? 543 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,920 Speaker 1: So this sliding scale that he creates, right, if I 544 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: can't go to his church and look and go, well, 545 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:45,120 Speaker 1: he doesn't even you know, bench three plates. I can't 546 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 1: listen to this guy. Am I all of a sudden 547 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: justified in doing that? Like none of what he writes 548 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: makes any sense because masculinity is a sliding concept. I mean, 549 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: that's part of why it's cultural. It has no real rooting, right. 550 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: The discipleship shapes us in ways that if I'm sitting 551 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: in front of an old grandpa, or if I'm sitting 552 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: in front of Mark Driscoll, I'm not concerned with who 553 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: they are, what they look like. I'm concerned with what 554 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,360 Speaker 1: they're saying. I'm concerned with the wisdom that they embody 555 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: or the lack thereof. And so I just think there's 556 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: this sort of real weird tendency very much the way 557 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: you've described is it Aristotle? Right, yeah, who you know, 558 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: after his uh, I'm going to say this wrong Monachian 559 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: ethics and ethics, thank you, ny and ethics. 560 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, what's so hard about that? James, aren't you a man? 561 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,719 Speaker 1: It's horrible. I'm yeah, pronunciation, I'm glad it's not a 562 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: market manhood. After after he does this, and your your 563 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 1: comment was, you know, oddly enough, the ideal man looks 564 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: strangely like him, And I feel that's what we're getting 565 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: out of Driscoll. The ideal man looks strangely like him, 566 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: as opposed to being strangely like Christ. 567 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:16,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, or maybe a small tweak strangely like like what 568 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: he projects himself to be, because I've also seen him, 569 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: and I don't think. I don't think he quite lives 570 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,839 Speaker 2: up to his own image of himself, but at least 571 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,920 Speaker 2: at least the projection of what he thinks of himself 572 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 2: to be. 573 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I yeah, I think the I think anybody 574 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,680 Speaker 1: who picked up acts like act like a man. And 575 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: even just the subtitle nine Ways to Punch Life in 576 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: the mouth, I don't even understand how you write that 577 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: subtitle and think that that's a representative, a representative thing 578 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,759 Speaker 1: that Jesus would resonate with right, let's punch life in 579 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 1: the mouth. It just screams like this sort of weird 580 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: machismo bravado kind of thing. And so I think anybody 581 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 1: who picks this book up, what I'd encourage them with 582 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,560 Speaker 1: is just this. Number one. So much of this is 583 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 1: not historically accurate. Number two, so much of this is 584 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,440 Speaker 1: not biblically accurate. And number three. If you pick up 585 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,440 Speaker 1: this book and read it, it's I think his concerns 586 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,360 Speaker 1: are very much real. I think his means of getting 587 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: at those concerns are only going to create a greater 588 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,200 Speaker 1: distortion and problem than what we have right now. That 589 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,520 Speaker 1: would be my sort of takeaways. 590 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:45,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think of the sort of language of Paul 591 00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 2: where he says, imitate me? Is I imitate Christ? 592 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: Yeah? 593 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,520 Speaker 2: It would both be absurd and dangerous to look at 594 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: Paul and assume that he's saying what Driscoll's saying. Yes, 595 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 2: it would be utterly dangerous to assume that the predicate 596 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 2: of what it means for Paul to imitate Christ and 597 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,399 Speaker 2: to therefore step forward into his ministry was anything other 598 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 2: than the giving of the fullness of his very self, 599 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 2: both for those that he encountered, but also so that 600 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 2: the fullness of Jesus could shine through him. 601 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: Yeah. 602 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 2: None of that involved his muscle mass beyond the basics 603 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 2: of he needed some muscle mass to move those bones around. 604 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: Right. 605 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. None of that involved him even being married, by 606 00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:46,399 Speaker 2: his own testimony, Right, none of that involved, presumably any 607 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:52,800 Speaker 2: kind of romantic encounter. It entirely involved his desire to 608 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:58,560 Speaker 2: give himself fully. Yeah, to be sort of a John 609 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 2: the Baptist, John, of course famously saying I must decrease 610 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,440 Speaker 2: so that he Jesus might increase. That was the very 611 00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:12,080 Speaker 2: mechanism by which we understand Paul's giving of himself. And 612 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 2: if we can't understand Jesus, and we can't understand those 613 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 2: whom the Father gave to Jesus, whom Jesus then gave 614 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 2: to the world as a mechanism for modeling of giving 615 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,120 Speaker 2: of ourselves for another, then we've done a great disservice 616 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 2: to the testimony of Jesus. We've done a disservice to 617 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 2: the next generation of youth, whether in or out of 618 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 2: the church, And we've done a great disservice to the 619 00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 2: entirety of creation that we're called to serve. Rather than 620 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 2: to domineer. 621 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:49,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, good ending man, we'll call it there. Act Like 622 00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 1: a Man by Marke Driscoll is not a book that 623 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,840 Speaker 1: I would necessarily recommend. We've used it here as a 624 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: negative example, and I think hopefully you've seen some of 625 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:02,160 Speaker 1: the reasons why I don't actually think I picked the 626 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: worst passage out of the book, although we definitely picked one. 627 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,760 Speaker 1: I would say that is characteristic of the overarching argument. 628 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: He does have some interesting insight there at various points, 629 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:17,239 Speaker 1: but they're almost always sort of overshadowed by some of 630 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: the language that I read today. It just gets hyper 631 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 1: masculinized very quickly, and the temperate parts of the work 632 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:32,839 Speaker 1: are just overshadowed by that sort of bravado that comes through. 633 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: So I don't recommend it, but as like I said, 634 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,800 Speaker 1: as a touch point into this conversation, I thought it 635 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: was important to go through it. In the next episodes, 636 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,000 Speaker 1: we're going to talk a little bit more about what 637 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: I would consider to be more nuanced positions, thoughtful positions, 638 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: especially coming out of the recovering Biblical manhood and womanhood movement. 639 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 1: So we're going to talk a little bit about Piper 640 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: Grudam some of that work that you find in a 641 00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: volume that's called Covering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, which we 642 00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: probably won't agree with either and so, but it is 643 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: a little bit more reasoned, a little bit more scholarly, 644 00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: and loses some of the bravado that we tended to 645 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:18,439 Speaker 1: see in what Driscoll wrote today. So, like I said, 646 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: I wanted to do this as a touch point, but 647 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: I don't want to stop here. We need to get 648 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: into some of the other scholarship and really analyze what's 649 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: going on there and talk a little bit about what 650 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: the Bible is saying in these various passes that are 651 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: treated and how the language of masculine and femininity skews 652 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: what's being said there. So we'll jump into those in 653 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,719 Speaker 1: the next episode. Thanks Ashish again for being here, and 654 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: thanks everybody for sticking with us. We'll catch you next 655 00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: time on Thinking Christian Take Care. I just want to 656 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,240 Speaker 1: take a second to thank the team at Life Audio 657 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: for their partnership with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. 658 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:55,880 Speaker 1: If you go to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens 659 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,839 Speaker 1: of other faith centered podcasts in their network. They've got 660 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: shows about prayer, I Will Study parenting, and more.